 Okay, no practice. That's right And that's Hey folks, welcome to was Jesus a Muslim we're gonna get started right away with Kenny Bomer's opening statement Thanks so much Kenny for being with us the floor is all yours. Thank you. Thank you So before I get started I can say Asalaamu alaykum rahmatullahi wabarakatuh I do bear witness There's no God other than Allah and I bear witness that Muhammad peace be peace be upon him is the final servant in the seal of all Prophets like to thank James and everyone with modern-day debate for organizing this debate once again They put a lot of work in so I certainly appreciate that and as a gift for the debate. I have a beautiful painting of Jesus peace be upon him for David Wood Jesus is right here in submission to prayer in prayer to our creator And so I figured I would give this as a gift to David because I come across it online I thought it was quite lovely. Of course. I don't believe that's really Jesus but Nevertheless, uh, that's a gift for David for the debate So with that being said James if you're ready, I'll start my opening statement Okay So was Jesus a Muslim? such a question In proclamation might shock and even anger some people but Open by saying what people don't understand don't understand. They fear and what they fear They seek to destroy However, the truth can't be destroyed truth is the truth even if no one believes it and a lie is a lie Even if everyone believes it and so Unfortunately, the lies attributed to Jesus peace be upon him are some of the most widespread and most consistent lies ever told However, the consistency of a man defines who he is and Jesus peace be upon him Consistently lived his life in submission to the will of our creator And that makes him a Muslim by the literal definition of the word the literal definition So what's interesting is that Christians don't seem to have a problem with Jewish people who you know They don't give them a hard time because they reject Jesus, but anytime Muslims Make any claim to Jesus whatsoever peace be upon him We say Jesus is a Muslim or I love Jesus because I'm a Muslim Those same Christians become very irate and angry and because in their minds everything Islam Is anything Islam rather is everything evil and so during this debate what we're going to see is David Wood's going to accuse Muslims just as he did in a recent video on this very topic published in may 2023 this year He's going to accuse Muslims of deception and accuse Muslims of committing the fallacy of equivocation when we say that Jesus Is a Muslim Or was a Muslim So he'll do so by attempting to limit the definition of the word Muslim to the modern definition or interpretation That says that a Muslim is an adherent to the religion of Islam So of course that's part of the definition We don't deny that meaning that one who's who follows Muhammad peace be upon him in the Qur'an However, Muslims do not say that Jesus was a follower of Muhammad He's people on both prophets and we don't say he followed the Qur'an Obviously these things came after Jesus peace be upon him the prophet Muhammad came after Jesus peace be upon him and so did the Qur'an And so that definitely won't be the argument that I'm making here today And I challenged David Wood during the course of this debate to produce the name of just one Muslim Who's who's used the word Muslim in the limited way that he says that we do when we say that Jesus was a Muslim And I assure you he will not be able to produce such a name because it doesn't happen So in that recent video published in May 2023 David Wood says the following and I quote he says when Muslims say Jesus is a Muslim It will be understood by listeners in a certain way They will think that you're saying that Jesus is an adherent of the religion of Islam And not that you're just making some point about the technical technical meaning of a word He says the Muslim understands how people will understand what he's saying and does it anyway Knowing that when people hear Jesus as a Muslim They think that Jesus is an adherent of the religion of Islam And so he says that's the ongoing problem the problem of equivocation He says you're using a word in an ambiguous manner You know the word can be used in multiple ways And if you're taking advantage of that fact you're taking advantage of the fact that the word can mean multiple things Well, of course words can mean multiple things and have multiple meanings and What's the problem with that? Aren't we supposed to use words and consider the full definitions of words and we use them? Of course we are And apparently David Wood thinks he understands and can tell what everyone else is thinking when they hear something But which are literally amazing to say the least but Yes, again words can mean multiple things So consider the word Muslim in the context of what Shakespeare said in the play Romeo and Juliet When Romeo asked the question What is in a name arose by any other name would smell as sweet So even David Wood and Christians are going to have to admit they do admit they readily admit that Jesus Admit it's a living in submission to our crater and they do so using English phrases They have to because it's very obvious in the books of the bible Well, it just so happens in the arabic language There's a name for such people who submit to the will of our crater the word muslim And however the english language doesn't have a single solitary word to just to define such people So i'm wondering what david wood's going to tell the world today Is he's going to tell the world that it's okay for christians to readily admit the jesus Whom they worship is god Lived in submission to the one that he called his own god our lord and his lord our god and his god They admit that using english terminology But it's somehow wrong for muslims to say the exact same thing with a single solitary word the arabic word muslim So of course again words mean multiple things and when muslims say jesus was a muslim We mean it in the literal etymological sense of the word We say jesus was a muslim based on the consistency of his actions meaning his willing submission to our crater and surely The consistency of a man defines who he is So note what the following christians say When they admit that jesus peace be upon them submitted his will to our crater An article on soul shepherding dot com the christian author and psychologist bill go t a he says the following and i quote Perhaps the most astonishing aspect of jesus's life on earth is that he lived on earth By the discipline of submission to god He said it's the way he lived every day of his life And again the consistency of a man defines who he is Now you would think that the most astonishing aspect of jesus's life Would be that he proclaimed to be god, but he doesn't actually do that in the bible Certainly not unambiguously so bill go t a admits that the most astonishing aspect of the life of jesus peace be upon him Is that he lived in submission to his crater? Meanwhile, david wood accuses muslims of cherry picking the numerous very uning You know very clear unambiguous verses of the bible that speak of jesus Submitting to and praying to and giving all glory to our crater And he says we focus on those and it would be argued that muslims Ignore other ambiguous verses that are supposed to imply that jesus is god But consider if if in those verses jesus peace people on him is submitting to the one he worships as god While at the same time he's claiming to be god Aren't the contradictions there quite shocking? Doesn't the bible say god's not the author of confusion? Of course, he's not but unfortunately the human authors of the bible certainly were So does it really make sense that to think that a human being who is living in submission to god Is the very god that he's submitting to that's like saying god turned himself into his own son And then prayed and submitted himself to himself As his own god that was himself It makes no sense furthermore Again, there's not a single unambiguous verse of the bible that says that jesus is god But there are literally dozens Of very clear verses of the bible that describe jesus living in submission to our crater and again the consistency of a man defines who he is Now note again what the following christians say about jesus submitting peace be upon him Christian missionary frank lobach he says in his writings. He noted that the apostle john Indicates in his gospel that jesus was acting under god's orders 47 times in the book of john He says john records jesus saying things like i've come not to do my will but the will of the one who sent me And whatever i say is just because it's what the father told me to say Now it's a bit odd that frank lobach would refer to the anonymous authors of the book of john Scholars believe it's more than one author that he would he would refer to this these writers as the apostle john But what's what's even more odd is that You know what's more striking is that jesus peace be upon him whom christians consider to be god submits himself to god 47 times and he does so in the very book of john that christians often most often turn to In their attempt to prove that jesus is god So let's put that on the scales of logic and reason in common sense We have 47 times in the book of john that jesus peace be upon him is submitting his will to our crater With zero verses with jesus claiming that he's god So according to the renowned christian theologian john gill He says jesus is referred to as a servant of god in the bible in philippians 2 7 and it's mentioned that jesus took upon himself The form of a servant he was chosen by god to be his servant and it's called the servant elect in isaac 42 And also the christian willy jordan or fred jordan mission Says that in her writings a hundred hundreds of years before the birth of jesus The prophets wrote that the messiah would be a servant Says isaac wrote god that god says see my servant my chosen one in whom i delight also in isaac 42 Now i ask you does it make sense to think that our crater made himself to be his own servant? Or does it make more sense to to believe that jesus peace be upon him was simply a human being One of the best of these examples of human being matter of fact, but that he lived in submission to our crater You judge for yourself willy jordan says also that He goes on to say that jesus christ described himself as a servant when he said The son of man did not come to be served but to serve And again the consistency of a man defines who he is jesus also says in the bible That the father is greater than i and in john 10 29 same book of john that was referenced earlier jesus peace be upon him says the father is greater than all And that's like what we say is muslims in the arabic language Allahu akbar and we know that jesus peace be upon him Spoke aramaic the scholars admit this which is a sister language to arabic so And we know that he said illa illa lana sabbatini in the book of matthew 2746 So he certainly would have been using this type of terminology. He's not saying that's that's the bulk of it But he certainly he's declaring the main thing is he's declaring that god is the greatest and we as muslims say Allahu akbar god is the greatest so in the previously mentioned previously mentioned video david wood and his guest mike jones known as inspiring philosophy On modern day debate they accuse muslims of committing the fallacy of equivocation lying and deception and of cherry picking verses of the bible About jesus submitting to our crater While ignoring again the other and or refusing to read further for more clarification About jesus being god in other verses but again not a single verse of the bible that says it says jesus is god They also said that they in during that video that they couldn't find a single definition in any dictionary in the world For the word muslim that doesn't say that the definition is an adherent of the religion of islam Well, of course it says that It's part of the definition But it's not limited to just that so if david wood and his guest Would have taken their own advice about cherry picking verses and if they would have read further in those dictionaries They would they would have found the portion of the literal definition The etymological definition that muslims are referring to when we say jesus was a muslim So I have six sources for this evidence that they said they couldn't find So let's start with first defining the word islam which means peace through submission. Uh, the first source, um Princeton dot edu they say that the word islam is often literally translated as submission But upon further linguistic analysis, we see a much deeper meaning emerge Uh, the air that says the arabic root of islam islam meaning peace therefore the meaning of submission in islam Is not a forceful submission. They say rather It's a peaceful willing submission where the individual realizes a higher power and submits fully to god's teachings And preferences or will over their own ego and vices and I ask you did jesus not do that himself? And surely the consistency of a man defines who he is they go on to say the vision of islam Is that this coming into harmony with divine will creates an internal and an external peace for the soul and for society at large So ask yourselves what a person nicknamed the prince of peace Agree with and put into practice that very definition Of course, jesus would peace be upon him and the consistency of a man defines who he is Christian professor philosophy dallas willard. He's quoted as saying Submission is abandoning outcomes to god Well, isn't that what jesus peace be upon him does in the book of matthew 2639 and also a few verses later in 42 Where he says father, if not my will let your will be done Of course, he does so source number two etymology online one of the sources they claim that they used in that video um If you look at the definition of the word muslim or islam rather on this The word islam it says religious system revealed by muhammad. Oh, yes We know that from the 1610s early 17th century But it goes on to say it doesn't stop there. It says from the arabic word islam literally Submission to the will of god from the root aslamah. He resigned. He surrendered. He submitted so a muslim in summary is a is person who takes on the role of servitude And who believes along with jewish people by example in the absolute oneness of our crater By example jews recite the shema and as muslims recite the shahada Which is testimonies of faith and both declare the absolute oneness of our crater We know that moses peace be upon him and jesus both peace be upon him did this in the old testament moses did in the old testament and jesus repeated the words of moses in the new testament when they said Hero israel our lord our god is one lord. They didn't say three. They didn't say trinity. They didn't say father and son and As muslims we say cool. Allah. Oh, I had Allah was a man. I'm your little one. I'm your lad Well, I'm your cooler who kufa one ahead Which is what Allah tells us to say in the crown our crater tells us to give the answer to people who ask who he is We're to say he is Allah. He's god the crater the one and only god He is the eternal the absolute he begets not nor is he be gotten and there's nothing in no one that compares to him so Which again, so this describes our crater is being absolutely one uh unique Like with no partner no equal and it's our belief is muslims that our crater is not like any of creation We use the word he when referring to Allah as a figure of speech We don't believe our crater is neither male nor female So now let's define the word muslim and I would like everyone if you could you know I have to necessarily do it right this moment, but at some point take some time and everyone please google the following question What is the literal meaning of the word muslim according to mariam webster dictionary? Please google that question and the first thing that you're going to see pop up on your phone The first thing you'll see Says from the arabic word muslim literally one who submits to god It doesn't say Allah just but Just mentioning that but obviously Allah. We believe is our crater So it says literally one who submits to god mariam webster That's under the etymology now if you click on the link after that The first thing that you'll see is an adherent of of islam Well, that's part of the definition that was cherry picked by david wood and mike jones in their video Because they didn't take time to scroll down further for for the etymology of the word Uh, and probably we didn't care too for that matter so Mentioning etymology the sort the fourth source etymology online another source. They claim to have used for the word muslim It says one who professes islam which is submission to our crater and also again from the arabic word muslim Who submits to the will of god? Right and so from the root word islamah. He resigned. He surrendered He submitted just like jesus did peace be upon him and surely the consistency of a man defines who he is the fifth source abram publications muslim according to biblical hebrew States that it's the meaning is unifier peacemaker and again don't christians again call jesus peace be upon him the prince of peace But if you go down to etymology of the word they say from the hebrew word shalom To be or make whole or complete the name muslim literally means one um Means a peacemaker unifier and probably started out as a regular word precisely meaning just that here at abram publications We think that the the the name nazarene and again jesus was from nazareth Reflects a similar thought namely a motivation to unify all of god's revelations into a singular harmonized body of knowledge Which is the message of monotheism the worship of our crater alone They say the first person on record as being a nazarene is of course jesus The of nazaret and comparing the word nazarene and muslim They state that the proper name muslim expresses a sentiment that was very much alive in biblical times As is demonstrated by the degree of popularity of the highly Similar name mushelum which allowing for some variations They say represents a colossal array of biblical characters and they end by saying the word muslim Is probably the best known semitic word in the world and the six source the ali anal translation of the chron Says if you go to the linguistic definition a muslim is one who believes and lives in submission to god That's what it says in the ali anal translation the official law definition Says one professes faith and joins a muslim congregation in prayer and so so forth We're not claiming that jesus does that we've no one no muslim claims that so i'll close with the definition of um What a muslim is based on my book consider islam chapter two of that book Chapter titled just the basics just a summary of what i say there Say islam is not just a religion. It's a natural way of life Muslims believe every human being since the prophet adam and his wife eve were muslims from birth piece of them both Meaning we're all born in the state of islam submission to the will of our crater We don't choose our gender our race our nationality what we'll look like or who our parents will be Those decisions are made by our crater alone. Therefore. We're all born in in submission to god's will therefore are born As muslims in a state of islam those So what we what we become from there is based on acquired knowledge that we obtained through the course of our lives Through people who educate and influence throughout the course of our lives But based on that most people become products of their environment wind up accepting a religion or lack thereof of their parents Grandparents etc thereby altering the natural disposition that we're born with That's why muslims who were born Who weren't born into a muslim family are called reverts because we revert back to the natural god given way of life We do so by recognizing our crater and choosing like jesus did to willingly live in submission to our craters will And worshiping our crater alone We believe every human is born in the state of islam and that will die in the state of islam Meaning that when it comes time for us to die nothing's going to stop it our crater decides that and we have no choice in the matter And that doesn't mean that we're all going to die as muslims This life is a test and this the purpose of this life is to test every soul To see if we're going to freely choose to live in submission to our craters will All the days between the day that we're born and the day that we die Those who choose to do so are muslims and Of course jesus chose to live in submission to the will of his crater all the days of his life and So we believe jesus is one of the best examples of of those who submit to our crater along with the prophet Noah moses abraham the final prophet muhammad He's been up on them all and so i'll end with what jesus says in matthew 18 3 He said truly i say to you unless you convert and become humble like little children You would not enter the kingdom of heaven and in mark 9 3 70 says whoever welcomes one of these children My name welcomes me and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me But the one who sent me and again humility is synonymous with Submissiveness and jesus peace be upon him was a humble man Who lived his life in submission to the will of our crater and again the consistency of a man defines who he is jesus was indeed a muslim by the literal etymological definition of the word Thank you Thank you very much kenny for that opening statement. We'll kick it over to david for his opening statement as well Thanks david the floor is all yours Thank you james for Setting up this debates and a lot of other debates I think james might be uh Approaching some all-time record for the most debates ever set up by a single individual. Uh, I don't know what the record is but It wouldn't surprise me to see you in the genus book at some point james um james is also a PhD student in psychology. So there's a part of me that always wonders if this is some sort of experiment here Like he's experimenting on a christian jews atheists muslims seeing how we interact with debates anyway It's part of me that always thinks we're lab rats and james's experiment here. Um Uh, and then there's kenny I thank kenny for the uh for the picture. It's good to know that the uh prohibition on images is gone now um, but no even though I have A lot of disagreements with kenny on a lot of issues. Uh, I do respect his willingness to engage in some difficult topics that not a lot of other people are willing to engage Kenny debates christians and atheists on topics that lots of the dowel guys spend their entire dowel careers running from so hats off to kenny for that So was jesus a muslim? short answer no long answer no Just to be clear Um, there are all kinds of directions I could go with this and can even brought up some of the passages But I could point out that the koran Denies jesus's sacrificial death and resurrection, but jesus said things like For even the son of man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many Uh, then the son of man is to be delivered into the hands of men And they will kill him and when he has been killed he will rise three days later. Not what islam teaches on these issues I could show that jesus commanded his followers to love their enemies So that they can be more like their father in heaven The koran says that Allah has no love for unbelievers I could show that jesus condemned prayer and fasting that are meant to be seen by others But in islam prayer and fasting seem to be designed to be seen by others There are all kinds of contradictions between the teachings of jesus and the teachings of islam But as kenny pointed out you could sort of push all those to side all those aside and say well jesus still submitted to god as a muslim I'm in a generous mood So i'm going to keep this as simple as possible going to focus on one issue And not only am I going to focus on one issue I'm going to focus on an issue where muslims generally think they've got us What do muslims think is their strongest most powerful point when they talk about jesus Let's find out In surah 19 verses 88 to 91 of the koran we read And they say the most beneficent has begotten a son Certainly you have made an abominable assertion whereby the heavens are almost torn and the earth Is split asunder and the mountains fall in ruins that they ascribe a son To the most beneficent So calling jesus the son of god is such an abominable assertion That the universe is on the verge of falling apart when people call jesus the son of god Surah 17 verse 111 Say praise be to allah who begets no son and has no partner in his dominion. Allah has no son Why not surah 6 verse 101 Wonderful originator of the heavens and the earth how can he have a son when he has no wife Allah has no wife so he can't have a son And if you say that he has a son, you're in all kinds of trouble because that's the only sin that Allah Can't just let slide Surah 4 verse 48 Allah forgives not that partners should be set up with him But he forgives anything else to whom he pleases to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin most heinous indeed Allah can forgive anything else, but he can't forgive associating a partner With him associating a partner with Allah is called sure So associating partner with Allah claiming that Allah has a son is the worst possible sin in islam Since Muslims believe in ismat al anbiya that's Allah's protection of the prophets from falling into major error Jesus obviously couldn't have committed the worst possible sin If he was a real muslim, right And those who are around jesus wouldn't have gotten the impression that he was the son of god because he wouldn't have given them that impression, right And there's no way that god and angels and prophets would identify jesus as the son of god, right? So we know what we're definitely not going to find if jesus was a muslim prophet. We're not going to find a bunch of shirk everywhere Let's see if our expectations are confirmed by the evidence Jesus was baptized by john the baptist and in matthew 3 when jesus comes out of the water The spirit of god descends as a dove and the voice out of the heavens proclaims This is my beloved son with whom i am well pleased A voice out of the heavens says this is my beloved son. This was the voice of the father But how do we know that the father was referring to jesus? How do we know he wasn't talking about john the baptist or someone else? Well The holy spirit descended from heaven and landed on jesus notice the father and the holy spirit together Identify jesus as the son of god And jesus repeatedly identifies himself as the son of god at his trial for instance in mark 14 The high priest asks him Are you the christ the son of the blessed? jesus answers i am and you will see the son of man seated at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven So father son and holy spirit are in complete agreement that jesus is the son of god In luke 1 the angel gabriel says to mary do not be afraid mary for you have found favor with god And behold you will conceive in your womb and bear a son and you shall call his name jesus He will be great and will be called the son of the most high jesus is to be called the son of the most high according to the angel gabriel What about the prophets john the baptist was a prophet according to both christianity and islam In john 1 he tells his followers about jesus and says I have seen and a born witness that this is the son of god That's the testimony of the prophets. How about jesus apostles? At the end of john 1 the apostle nathaniel says to jesus rabbi. You are the son of god. You are the king of israel In matthew 16 jesus asks his disciples. Who do you say that i am? Peter answers you are the christ the son of the living god Now if jesus were just a prophet this would have been a really good time to rebuke peter instead jesus says to him Blessed are you simon bar jonah for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my father who is in heaven That's strange jesus says that the father revealed That jesus is the son of god Why wouldn't the father reveal that jesus was a merely human prophet of islam? In matthew 14 jesus walks on water during a storm after stepping into the boat the wind stops and his disciples bow down and worship him saying Truly you are the son of god But it's not just his male followers who call him the son of god And jon 11 lazarus dies and martha the sister of lazarus meets jesus on his way to raise lazarus from the dead we read Jesus said to her your brother will rise again Martha said to him i know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day Jesus said to her i am the resurrection and the life whoever believes in me though he died Yet shall he live and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die Do you believe this she said to him. Yes lord. I believe that you are the christ the son of god who is coming into the world Martha and the apostles and jon the baptist were all jews who believed in jesus But even the jewish leaders who rejected jesus admitted that he was claiming to be The son of god at his crucifixion they mocked him and said He saved others. He cannot save himself. He is the king of israel Let him come down now from the cross and we will believe in him He trusts in god let god deliver him now if he desires him for he said i am the son of god So whether they believed in him or didn't believe in him the jews of his time Acknowledged that jesus was claiming to be the son of god And even some of the romans called jesus the son of god when jesus died by crucifixion There was an earthquake and the roman centurion and those who were with him shouted. Truly. This was the son of god Even demons would call jesus the son of god as he was casting them out of people we read in luke 4 And demons also came out of many crying. You are the son of god Now think about the diversity of witnesses that we have here The father identifies jesus as the son of god jesus identifies himself as the son of god The holy spirit identifies jesus as the son of god the angel gabriel identifies jesus as the son of god The prophet john the baptist identifies jesus as the son of god jesus apostles identify him as the son of god Martha identifies him as the son of god roman soldiers identify him as the son of god Demons identify him as the son of god and people who certainly didn't believe that he's the Son of God publicly proclaimed that he was claiming to be the Son of God. It seems like a pretty good lineup of witnesses. So what's the problem? Well, about six centuries after, everyone who could possibly identify Jesus as the Son of God identified him as the Son of God and illiterate seven-century caravan robber named Muhammad came along and said that Jesus isn't the Son of God and never claimed to be. And Muhammad's followers believed him, someone that I would regard as the least reliable witness of Jesus in history. They believed him instead of believing the unparalleled cloud of witnesses who affirmed that Jesus is the Son of God. Now, you might think that we're simply at an impasse here. Christians believe what the unparalleled cloud of witnesses said while Muslims believe what the Arabian caravan robber said. Maybe we should just agree to disagree. But it's not that simple because there are some problems for the Muslim view. The most glaring problem is that the Quran affirms the inspiration, preservation, and authority of the Jewish and Christian scriptures. Let's take a look at some of the clearest passages in the Quran. Surah 3 verses 3-4 He, Allah, has revealed to you the book with truth verifying that which is before it and he revealed the Torah and the gospel a four-time, a guidance for mankind, and he revealed the criteria. So Allah revealed the Torah and the gospel as a guidance for mankind. Many Muslims insist that Allah's plans were thwarted and that the Torah and the gospel were eventually corrupted. But this isn't what the Quran claims at all. In fact, the Quran declares that 7th century Jews and Christians were still reading the Torah and the gospel during the time of Muhammad. Surah 7 verse 157 Allah says, Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written down with them in the Torah and the gospel, it is they who will prosper. How can Jews and Christians find Muhammad mentioned in the Torah and the gospel if we don't have the Torah and the gospel? Is the Quran saying that there are parts about Muhammad that are reliable even though other parts have been corrupted? How would we know that the parts about Muhammad weren't corrupted? What's the point of appealing to a book to validate your prophet if you're simultaneously claiming that the book you're appealing to has been corrupted? Contrary to charges of corruption, the Quran asserts that Noah can change Allah's words. Surah 6 verses 114 to 115 Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah? And he it is who has revealed to you the book made plain. And those to whom we have given the book know that it is revealed by your Lord with truth, therefore you should not be of the disputers. And the word of your Lord has been accomplished truly and justly. There is none who can change his words. And he is the hearing, the knowing. None, there is none who can change his words. Surah 18 verse 27 And recite what has been revealed to you of the book of your Lord. There is none who can alter his words. And you shall not find any refuge besides him. Surah 5 verse 43 Some Jews come to Muhammad to settle a dispute. Allah responds, Why do they come to you for judgment, O Muhammad, when they have the Torah before them? Wherein is the judgment of Allah? Yet they turn back after that and these are not the believers. Jews come to Muhammad. Hey, Muhammad, can you settle this dispute? Allah's response is, Why are they coming to you, Muhammad? They don't need you. They've got the Torah. According to the Quran, do Jews need the Quran? No, because they have the Torah. According to Muslims today, do Jews need the Quran? Yes, because the Torah has been corrupted. So there's always a difference between what the Quran says and what Muslims believe. What about Christians? Just a few verses after Allah tells Jews that they don't need Muhammad, Allah commands Christians. In Surah 5 verse 47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed they're in. If any do fail to judge by the light of what Allah hath revealed, they are no better than those who rebel. According to the Quran, should Christians judge by the Gospel? Absolutely. We're rebels against Allah if we don't. According to Muslims today, should Christians judge by the Gospel? Of course not, the Gospel has been corrupted. Once again, we see a big difference between what the Quran says and what Muslims believe. If the Torah and the Gospel have been corrupted, Jews and Christians have nowhere else to turn, because in Surah 5 verse 68, Allah tells Muhammad to say, Say, O people of the Book, You have no ground to stand upon unless you stand fast by the Torah, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord. Interestingly, the Torah and the Gospel were authoritative, not just for Jews and for Christians, but also for Muhammad. When Muhammad was having doubts about his revelations, he was commanded to go to the people of the Book for confirmation. Allah tells Muhammad in Surah 10 verse 94, But if you are in doubt as to what we have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you, certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord. Therefore, you should not be of the disputers. Ask those who read the Book before you. Talking about the people of the Book, Jews and Christians, Muhammad could only confirm his revelations by making sure they line up with our revelations. So, the Torah and the Gospel are authoritative, not only for Jews and Christians, but also for Muhammad himself. Muslims who deny the inspiration, preservation, and authority of the Bible are therefore contradicting the Quran. But it gets worse because the Quran doesn't just affirm Allah's protection of the Christian scriptures. The Quran also affirms Allah's protection of Christians. Surah 3 verse 55, Behold, Allah said, O Jesus, I will take you and raise you to myself and clear you of the falsehoods of those who blaspheme. I will make those who follow you superior to those who reject faith to the day of resurrection. Allah said he would protect Jesus' followers to the day of resurrection. That's a long time. Surah 61 verse 14, O you who believe, be helpers in the cause of Allah, as Jesus' son of Mary said to his disciples, Who are my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said we are helpers in the cause of Allah. So a party of the children of Israel believed and another party disbelieved. Then we aided those who believed against their enemy and they became uppermost. A party of the children of Israel believed in Jesus. A party of the children of Israel didn't believe in Jesus. The Quran says that Allah aided those who believed in Jesus until they became uppermost over those who didn't believe in Jesus. And if you read Yusuf Ali's commentary on this verse, he said it refers to Christians taking over the Roman Empire, becoming uppermost. So Allah aided the true followers of Jesus until they took over the Roman Empire. Quick question. Did the followers of Jesus who took over the Roman Empire believe that Jesus is the son of God? They did indeed. So those are the ones Allah helped, those are the ones who have Allah's stamp of approval as the true followers of Jesus. Quoting all of this together, Allah points to Jesus and says that he was a Muslim prophet and yet Jesus called himself the son of God, as did the father, the Holy Spirit, the angel Gabriel and John the Baptist. Allah says that Jesus' disciples were devout Muslims and yet Jesus' followers called him the son of God and worshipped him. Allah says that he aided the true followers of Jesus until they became uppermost and yet the followers of Jesus who became uppermost called him the son of God. Would a Muslim prophet call himself the son of God and convince everyone around him that he's claiming to be the son of God? No. So was Jesus a Muslim prophet? Obviously not. The Islamic view of Jesus completely self-destructs. But notice, since Allah and Muhammad affirmed the scriptures and the witnesses that called Jesus the son of God, we can add Allah and Muhammad to our list of witnesses. There they are at the bottom. But we'll call them indirect witnesses. They officially deny that Jesus is the son of God but they show that Jesus is the son of God in other ways. Now, since we have so many witnesses declaring that Jesus is the son of God, how can Muslims defend their claim that Jesus was an about Muslim prophet who would never commit shirk? Well, they go to the Bible and they say Jesus submitted to God and that's all that Muslim means. And that's fine. But now you're stripping away everything that we read about what it means to submit to God in the Quran. The one thing that you don't do if you're submitting to God is call yourself the son of God and that's exactly what Jesus did over and over and over again. And Kenny quoted passages where Jesus is referring to his father or Jesus is the son. And that means, of course, that since Kenny is affirming that that's true submission to God, we can even add Kenny Boemer to our list of witnesses. 30 seconds. Isn't it great? Even your opponents are forced to agree that Jesus truly submitted to the father as the son and that this is proper submission. This means, of course, that Muhammad got everything wrong for what submission means. Thank you very much, David, for that opening as well. We'll kick it over to Kenny for his rebuttal. This is 12 Minutes. Kenny, the floor is all yours. Sorry, thank you. So I have a lot to say here. I'm going to start by saying pictures and the dials and the words. And it speaks quite volumes here in my mind in that we have Obi-Wan Kenobi here and it seems that Christians believe that this is Jesus this is a depiction of Jesus and what is he doing? He's submitting himself in prayer. So what David Wood has done with his opening statement he kind of bounced around with a number of different topics which I figured that he would, trying to talk about Muhammad, peace be upon him, and trying to justify the Bible using the Quran. It doesn't really work out that well because there's many verses of the Quran that when we speak about the word of Allah we're talking about the word of Allah that was revealed to the prophets and the messengers in its original form. We're not talking about words according to men and Gospels according to anonymous authors and so forth. We're not talking about that. As a matter of fact Allah says in the Quran in Surah An-Nisa chapter 4 verse 171 He says, Oh people of the book, do not go to extremes regarding your faith. Say nothing about Allah except the truth the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary was no more than a messenger of Allah and the fulfillment of his word through Mary and a spirit created by the man from him. So believe in Allah and his messengers and do not say trinity, stop for your own good. Allah is the one and only God. Glory be to him. He is far above having a son. To him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth and Allah is sufficient as a trustee of all affairs. So what David Wood has done, he's opened up the door to the Christian dilemma. In my opening statement I asked the question does it make sense that in these verses of the Bible that are claiming that Jesus is stating clearly that Jesus peace be upon him is in submission to God very clear unambiguous statements are we supposed to believe in the same verses and you know associated verses that he's also claiming to be God or that he's saying that he's the literal son of God these types of arguments it doesn't balance out, it doesn't make sense especially when we go to the book of the Bible where yes there's many verses that it claims that he's the son of God but as David Wells well aware of the sons by the tons argument that he mentioned in his recent video that's something that we don't even have to bring up because we know that that issue is there where in the Bible many people are called sons of God so is this unambiguously stating that Jesus is the begotten son of God when we know in the book of John John 316 for God so loved the world he sent his only begotten son well lo and behold the scholars have honestly revealed that the word begotten is the interpolation shouldn't be there so these are ambiguous terms that are used in the Bible and we see them over and over and over again but if we're going to go down the road and trying to prove that Jesus is the son of God and according to these witnesses many other witnesses they say many other things matter of fact in the book of Luke 24 19 it says he was a prophet a powerful word indeed before God and all people in John 740 the book that's most in question said surely this man is a prophet the crowds answered that says Jesus the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee in Matthew 21 verse 11 also in John 614 says after the people saw the sign Jesus performed they began to say surely this is the prophet who is to come into the world they in Luke 716 says they were all filled with all and praise God a great prophet has appeared among us in Luke 716 also John 419 says says the woman said I can see that you are a prophet now listen to what all these testimonies are stating so we to conclude that our God our creator turned himself to his own son that people refer to as prophet in this book in the Bible that says that God is not the author of confusion but we have Jesus peace people on him being mentioned as a prophet by numerous people they're not calling him God in these verses they're not saying that he's the son of God in these verses they're calling him a man a prophet a messenger of our God our creator and surely the consistency of a man defines who he is now the consistency of the writers of the Bible are very inconsistent and if God is not the author of confusion and if we are to believe that these are inspired words of God then why would God not clearly clearly state exactly who Jesus peace people on him is without any question in the minds of anyone if we can debate these issues that means that there's a problem there it's not a clear cut fact an unambiguous fact that could be clearly laid down and easily understood by everyone but when we state that a Muslim by example is one who chooses willingly to submit himself to the will of our creator that's very easy to understand and we say that with a single word the word Muslim Jesus did this time and time and time and time again 47 times in this book of John that they turn to and say this is proving that Jesus is God himself right he's God himself 47 times he's in submission to what himself I mean no disrespect by this I'm asking you use logic and reason you put this on the scales for yourself and you decide does this really add up in my mind it doesn't make add up to think that zero times Jesus peace be upon him declared himself to be God in any book of the Bible and 47 times in this book of John alone 47 times according to Christian scholars and so forth Muslims don't have to go there it's always argued that Muslims are the ones who go to these submission verses because that's you know it's our biggest argument well that's a pretty strong argument when you look over here at this picture here and we see these types of pictures all over the world where Jesus is doing what he's submitting himself I don't believe this is Jesus that's why I can handle this picture because this is not Jesus but nevertheless it's a person who is submitting himself over and over and over again to the one who sent him also Jesus himself explains that he's only doing the will of God in further verses he says this is eternal life that they know you true God and Jesus Christ who sent has glorified you on earth by accomplishing the work you gave me to do does God give himself his own assignment and put himself in incognito and you know in camouflage as a as as his own son to do something that doesn't quite add up that doesn't make sense and Jesus peace be upon him says in John 12 49 50 if you believe these are his words I have not spoken on my own but the father who sent me has commanded me to say what to say and how to say it and I know that his command leads to eternal life so I speak exactly what the father has told me to say okay so what is he what is he saying that God has told him to go and declare what hero Israel our Lord our God is one Lord completing utter monotheism now unfortunately with David Wood trying to use the Quran to validate the Bible it fails miserably because if you do any research whatsoever you'll see that there's dozens of not translations but dozens of versions of the Bible that have things that are missing in some and there and others and so forth so these aren't the original words that are delivered to the prophets and the messengers matter of fact these people aren't messengers at all these are most likely scribes and if we know what it says that in the book of Jeremiah 8 8 I believe it says how do we say that we're wise and the word of the Lord is with us when behold the lying pin of the scribe has turned it into a lie and that's exactly the message that is revealed in the Quran about the books of the Bible it's not referring to the original words that were given to Jesus peace be upon him or Moses peace be upon him or any other literal prophet and messenger those words that Allah has given to those individuals can't be changed however words that are have been corrupted where someone has given their own interpretation and added things here and added things there words according to human beings certainly can be and so we see that clearly with with all these examples if we keep going we know that Jesus peace be upon him said that in 640 he said let me go to 716 he says Jesus answered them and said my teaching is not mine but of him who sent me again he's admitting that he's being directed by a higher power he's submitting himself to a higher power does God change himself into a human being consider the vastness of this universe if you've ever flown in a plane you look down at the cars and stuff in the buildings they become minute are we to think that our God our Creator this vast universe all the galaxies and so forth he's admitting himself to an inkling of a human being no disrespect to any prophet and messenger no disrespect to human being that a lot of describes in the Quran is the best of his creation by the way but are we to think that our God our Creator to human being and placed himself in the womb of a woman resided there breastfed from her had to learn how to walk and talk and so forth he did all that to prove a point absolutely not does it make more sense to think to listen messengers to guide mankind and as a law revealed in the Quran that he sent a prophet and messenger to every community in their own language so that there could be no confusion about the true message of monotheism that was being conveyed and lo and behold the Bible says that Jesus was he himself if you believe these are his words and the Bible says I was not sent except to the lost tribe of the children of Israel and he was speaking in their their dialogue and what did he say oh Israel our Lord our God is one Lord the message of absolute and complete monotheism though David was opened up a huge dilemma the Christian dilemma where you go to these verses and yes we as Muslims we do note and take note of the fact that the verses of the Bible are saying that Jesus submitted his will to the will of our Creator and as I mentioned the numerous Christian scholars and so forth that I mentioned in my statement they too admit that then they have to because it's very obvious that Jesus peace be upon him submitted his will to the will of our Creator but again in these same verses we're supposed to believe that he's also saying that he's God the very God that he submitted to that's a pretty tough thing to swallow there I'm not sure that that's something that we can really digest if you're if you're looking at these things sincerely and you're looking at looking these things without the influence of acquired knowledge that your your mom and your dad taught you in those things if you sit down and read for yourself and analyze for yourself the only thing that you conclude is that a human being is destined to be in submission to our Creator he's our Creator and one who chooses to live in submission to our Creator willingly by the very definition of the word Muslim is in fact a Muslim Jesus did this time and time and time again I think that was my conclusion there thank you thank you very much for that rebuttal Kenny we're going to get over to David as well for his 12-minute rebuttal David the floor is all yours thank you James and Kenny in my opening statement I showed that all three persons of the Trinity prophets and apostles angels and demons men and women Jews and Gentiles anyone who could possibly identify Jesus as the Son of God identified him as the Son of God which is very strange for a devout Muslim prophet to give that impression to absolutely everyone I showed that Allah and Muhammad agree albeit indirectly they affirm the inspiration and the and the preservation and the authority of Christian scriptures which I quoted to show that Jesus is the Son of God and I show that Kenny accidentally affirmed that Jesus is the Son of God by quoting passages where Jesus is the Son of the Father and he refers to his father so definitely not a Muslim in any meaningful sense of the term beyond beyond bare minimum submission but if that's what Kenny says Muslim really means then again if that's what true submission to God is then Muhammad God at all wrong and Muhammad is a false prophet Kenny says I can't I can't use the Quran to affirm the Bible since there are different versions of the Bible well uh Kenny that that would be your problem that if your God is telling us to judge by the Gospel what's that mean and what do you even mean by different versions like King James version or something like that these are translations what do you mean by versions which would cause us to not go to the Gospels that your God and your prophet affirm as the inspired preserved authority where to go and if Kenny saying we can't go to these we can't go to the Bible then once again Muhammad is a false prophet because he orders Jews to judge by the Torah he orders Christians to judge by the Gospel Kenny says we can't do that then Allah is spouting complete nonsense Kenny my goodness Kenny says that Jeremiah eight eight says that the Torah has been corrupted total nonsense that the entire book of Jeremiah is about false prophets giving messages to their scribes saying that that that the Jews will never be punished by the Babylonians even though the Torah the Torah says that if they go in the direction of paganism God is going to punish them and they will be exiled there were false prophets saying you will never be exiled it will never happen and Jeremiah eight eight says that the pens of the scribes have made the law a lie so the law says yes God's going to punish you the lying scribes say no they won't great that's not we still got the Torah it doesn't say that you will never be punished it says that you will be punished we have the real Torah the lying scribes we don't have the writings anymore because they were exposed as false prophets Kenny says it's absurd to think that the creator the universe shrank himself down inside a human I mean according to the Quran Allah shrank himself down into a fire to appear to Moses in the burning bush so if you can appear in a fire I don't know why he couldn't appear in a human being Kenny says that Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel my goodness Kenny keep reading in the same book eventually sends his disciples out tells them to go into all nations making disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the father the son and the holy spirit this would be like me quoting the Quran which says that Muhammad was sent to the people around Mecca and saying see therefore he was only sent to the people of Mecca it never went anywhere else beyond that no Muslim would accept that why do you do that with the Bible Kenny quotes surah four verse 171 interesting passage that's where Jesus is called the word of Allah Muhammad copy that because Christians he heard Christians calling Jesus the word of Allah not realizing that it's in the beginning was the word the word was with God and the word was God so it's a reference to Jesus deity Kenny refers to what he calls the Christian dilemma says how can we understand passages where Jesus submits to God when we believe that Jesus is God well that's the whole doctrine of the incarnation yes if you leave the doctrine of the trinity and the incarnation out of any explanations it won't make sense but that's why you don't do that you gotta treat if you're gonna treat our theology then treat it accurately Kenny says many people in the Bible are called sons of God yeah they wouldn't have had problems saying that Jesus was a son of God in some sense notice the reaction of people when Jesus is calling himself the son of God they understand that he's claiming to be the son of God in a very unique sense he's the unique son of God he says that he's the one who will judge the world you know the Quran says that Allah is the one who will judge the world Jesus says that he's the one who raises the dead at the resurrection even though Quran says that Allah is the one who raises the dead at the resurrection so he's not claiming to be a merely generic son of God as if I were all children of God he's claiming to be someone very special Kenny repeatedly quoted Jesus referring to his father that's a problem according to the Quran Allah is a father to know what Quran says that there is no one who doesn't approach Allah as anything but a slave Allah is a father to know what Allah's got 99 names father ain't one Kenny keeps quoting Kenny keeps quoting God is not the author of confusion Muslims do this that's talking about confusion and worship a bunch of people are babbling at all the same time and no one can understand it's being said it's talking about confusion and worship it's not saying you will never find theology confusing or something like that Kenny says there's not a single unambiguous verse of the Bible that says Jesus is God Kenny if you'd like to debate the deity of Christ I'd be happy to but technically speaking this debate is about whether Jesus was a Muslim you could think that Jesus is a complete lunatic and that all his claims are false the question is whether he's a Muslim so if you walk out of here thinking wow that Jesus says some really crazy things I don't believe any of that fine was he a Muslim no you can't take these claims and make sense of them if he's a Muslim but again if you'd like to have a debate on the deity of Christ be happy to do that interestingly Kenny quoted Philippians 2 Paul in Philippians 2 to show that Jesus was a servant if you'd actually read the passage Kenny it might clear up some of the confusion but let's look at what the passage actually says where it refers to Jesus as a servant Philippians 2 verse 5 in your relationships with one another have the same mindset as Christ Jesus who being in very nature God cannot consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage rather he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant being made in human likeness and being found in appearance as a man he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death even death on the cross therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name but at the name of Jesus every knee should bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth and every acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father you can't make sense of that passage without the doctrine of the Trinity why are you quoting that to show that Jesus was a Muslim Kenny quotes John 17 3 where Jesus says that eternal life is knowing the Father and Jesus whom the Father has sent Kenny leaves out 2 verses later where Jesus says that he's going back to the Father and he says Father glorify me in your presence with the glory that you had before the foundation of the world does not sound like a good Muslim there Kenny says that Jesus lived in submission to God therefore that he was a Muslim and Kenny brought up the fallacy of equivocation here if you want to say some technical sense of the word that doesn't go anywhere beyond that you can do this in all kinds of ways notice if I wanted to say Kenny is a Buddhist could I do that of course I could Buddha just means enlightened one do Muslims believe that Muhammad was enlightened of course they do so Muhammad was the Buddha and his followers are Buddhists from just going with a linguistic meaning it's kind of irrelevant but I don't think I think people would clearly misunderstand me if I went around saying that Kenny is a Buddhist but does the term Jehovah's Witness mean the witness of God witnessing for God are Muslims witnessing for God yes therefore Muslims are Jehovah's Witnesses you do this all day long it's really easy to do so Muhammad is Buddha Muhammad was a Jehovah's Witness you can make these claims all day long they're just not very useful or not very interesting especially especially if you're claiming that Jesus did submit to God we've seen how Jesus submitted to God he submitted to God as the son submitting to the father entering creation taking on the nature of a servant that's how Jesus submitted to the father is that Islam well once again if you say that's Islam and you're fine with that and that's great and that's Islam then you've got a problem because the Quran makes that the worst unforgivable sin in other words if what Kenny is saying is correct if what Kenny is saying is true that Jesus truly submitted as a Muslim to the father then there's father then there's son the Quran is affirming scriptures which talk about the Holy Spirit and the angel Gabriel and all these witnesses affirming that Jesus is the Divine Son if those are to react and there's no way around it because the Quran says that these scriptures are the inspired, preserved, authoritative word of Allah then that's true submission to Allah and if Muslims want to believe that Muhammad was a true prophet and his revelations deny that Jesus's son and deny all of these things from the Gospel that Allah and Muhammad affirmed as the inspired, preserved, authoritative word of God there's only one way out you have to conclude that the Quran was later corrupted you have to conclude if you believe that Jesus truly submitted and the Muhammad was a true prophet in the same line with Jesus and Jesus called himself the Divine Son of God you can't have later revelations saying that that's the worst possible unforgivable sin according to the Quran Jesus was sinless according to Muhammad Jesus was sinless therefore Jesus couldn't have been committing the worst possible sin over and over and over again like a beating drum and so Kenny talks about this Christian dilemma we've got a Muslim dilemma here so if you want to say that Jesus submitted to God properly then Islam is false Islam would have to be false because the Quran condemns the way that Jesus submitted to God if on the other hand you want to say oh no, calling yourself the Son of God that's definitely bad then Jesus was a Muslim prophet and he wasn't sinless and Islam once again turns out to be false so either way Islam turns out to be false well, meaning of any of these passages you want if Kenny wants to say that Jesus was a Muslim in some limited narrow sense, fine but since the Quran affirms that way as true submission Muslims today have it wrong they should be submitting to the Father and the Son as Jesus' followers did because remember Allah affirmed that he aided the true followers of Jesus until they prospered and took over the Roman Empire and became uppermost over those who opposed them then those are the ones who had Allah's stamp of approval those are the ones who submitted to Jesus as Lord and the Divine Son of God so if they had it right, according to Allah Muslims today have it wrong thank you very much David we'll kick it over to Kenny for his final rebuttal this is 8 minutes, Kenny the floor is all yours thank you so for one if you notice the arguments are all over the place and the consistency of an argument defines that argument David Wood has had the resort to trying to appeal to the Quran and trying to attack the credibility of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and again the consistency of the argument defines that argument in my opening statement throughout the course of this debate so far what I've demonstrated is that Jesus, peace be upon him who Christians believe to be God and the Son of God who somehow submitted himself to the will of our Creator numerous times in the Bible so for one as Muslims we don't believe that Jesus, peace be upon him would have used this Father terminology unless he was trying to say in the ambiguous sense that when he says I go to my Father and your Father my Lord and your Lord is a reference to this type of terminology that might have been used in his time but outside of that we don't believe that he literally meant that obviously he had a literal Father that he's submitting himself to we believe he's submitting himself to our Creator and our Creator alone which is why I've specifically used the word Creator throughout the course of this debate to signify what a Muslim believes Muslims don't believe that Jesus so that's a kind of a strong man or red herring argument in that he made the claim that I'm acknowledging that Jesus submitted himself to the Father I'm only mentioning what the verses of the Bible says but again if you try to validate the books of the Bible with the Qur'an the Qur'an is called Al-Furqan and it is the corrector between truth and falsehood so those things that are consistent with what is revealed in the Qur'an we accept as Muslims do we believe that Jesus submitted his will to our Creator absolutely do we believe that Jesus is God absolutely not we believe he's the son actually the Bible never says that Jesus is God but even if it did would we believe that no we wouldn't but we certainly don't believe that he was the literal son of our Creator either so we take what would be consistent that we see a consistent message that we see with all prophets and messengers peace be upon them all we see that they all submitted their wills to our Creator they all declared the true absolute oneness of our Creator none of them mentioned anything about a Trinity none of them mentioned anything about a son of God we see this with the anonymous writers of the books of the Bible and you see back to the Christian dilemma is that what David Wood is forced to do what Christians in general are forced to do when we talk about these things and when we declare that Jesus was a Muslim they have to go and try to make the argument that Jesus is you notice during the debate he's made the arguments to try to prove that Jesus is the son of God and he's also made arguments to try to prove that Jesus is God himself and so therein lies the Christian dilemma being a former Christian and having talked to many Christian Christians that are still Christians who are struggling with their with their faith system and also revert to former Christians knowing that they when they hear these types of things they naturally question these things and the message from our Creator would be unjust from our Creator if he sent a message to mankind that caused so much confusion we don't believe as Muslims that he did that we believe the clear statements hero, Israel, our Lord, our God is one Muslims say that our Creator telling us directly what to say once again to say he is a law the one and only God he is the eternal the absolute he begets not nor is he begotten and there's nothing that compares to him these are clear statements hero, Israel, our God, our one is one is a clear statement if you have to bounce around just as David Wood has done during this debate and try to justify this and justify that and argue that and he's conceded that he knows there's no other option but to concede that Jesus peace be upon him prayed to and submitted himself to the will of our Creator he has to admit that because those are very clear he can't run from that Christians can't run from that I mean no disrespect in this terminology I'm just saying you can't avoid that but what they have to appeal to is this Christian dilemma where now they have to concede that point that Jesus was living in submission and now they have to try to get out with Jesus claiming to be the son of God and if you keep going further he's actually claiming to be God himself that he never actually does in the books of the Bible peace be upon him doesn't say it none of the words that are associated to his red letter Bible he's not saying it in fact nobody says it the Bible never says that Jesus is God but here we are in this Christian dilemma where we concede that Jesus lived in submission to the will of our Creator again the very definition of the etymological sense of the word that means submission to the will of our Creator the will of God the will of a law and again arose by any other name would smell a sweet whatever you want to call our Creator I say our Creator just to balance it out so people know exactly who we're referencing but if we have people who are living in willing to be our Creator by the literal definition of the word whether you want to try to build the argument that this person is God well now your dilemma continues and it magnifies in that now you have to struggle with the idea that God is submitting himself he turned himself into his own son and submitted himself to himself prayed to himself relied upon himself as his own son that was himself and to himself it doesn't it doesn't add up unless you are indoctrinated with tradition of your forefathers that has led you down this road where I mentioned that the most consistent lies told about Jesus you know they're very widespread and they're very consistent but however the consistency of a man defines who he is so if you consider what he's doing the very book of John that I mentioned 47 times he's submitting to the will of our Creator put that on one side of the scale and can you produce a verse on the other side that says Jesus is God you can't so the way it is in favor of the fact that Jesus was routinely living his life as I mentioned matter of fact I'm not the one who mentioned Philippians 7 the Christian scholars that I mentioned matter of fact I think that was the Christian theologian John Gil who mentioned Philippians 7 and the reason I use these Christians to mention these verses is because they themselves in these verses they're admitting that Jesus peace be upon them lived in submission to the will of our Creator now they may go on throughout their arguments and so forth to try to justify that Jesus is actually God or Jesus of God who's before submitting his will to himself and so forth but if you look at this logically you step back and analyze what's being said the only thing that you conclude is Jesus peace be upon him consistently was submitting himself to the will of our Creator and again that is the literal definition the etymological definition of the word and that's the sense that Muslims use when we say it so if you ever hear a Muslim say Jesus was a Muslim that's exactly what we mean Jesus was indeed a Muslim thank you very much for that rebuttal Kenny the final rebuttal this is going to be 8 minutes from David before we go into the 40 minute open dialogue thanks David the floor is all yours so the father identifies Jesus as the Son of God the Holy Spirit identifies Jesus as the Son of God Jesus calls himself the Son of God the angel Gabriel calls him the Son of God John the Baptist calls him the Son of God his apostles repeatedly call him the Son of God men women angels demons everyone identify Jesus as the Son of God and the Quran orders Christians to judge by the gospel where we read these things and so if we take that seriously and we judge by the gospel we have to judge that Islam is false because Islam denies these things about Jesus Kenny says that the Quran is the corrector between truth and falsehood that's absolute nonsense if you if you read what that means in context Allah says that in the Quran he orders Jews and Christians to go back to their books and not to cover things up and not to twist their scriptures so that's how the Quran protects the scriptures when I mean matter of fact that's the historical background of Surah 5 verse 43 where Allah orders the Jews to judge by the Torah he says they don't need Muhammad why are they coming to Muhammad when they have the Torah the background is that Jews were trying to get around going to the Torah and the Quran protects the Torah by sending Jews right back there it's just a few verses later where Allah says Christians you judge by the gospel and again Allah says that Christians and Jews have no ground to stand upon unless we stand upon our scriptures that makes no sense if we can't trust our scriptures and when we obey Allah in the Quran we have to reject the Quran because the Quran contradicts the very scriptures it sends us to judge by Kenny says that Muslims don't believe that Jesus submitted to the father in some special sense maybe you know just as God and so on I don't know what scriptures Kenny is reading even if you go to some of the most popular passages that Muslims ever quote I mean John chapter 5 verse 30 of my own self I can do nothing soccer nights favorite passage just just go anywhere go anywhere where they're quoting some of these passages and start reading Jesus being the son of God is all over the passage let me just show you and John in John chapter 5 here because it will tie some things together that we've been talking about so earlier in the chapter Jesus heals a man on the Sabbath and this is considered worked by the religious leaders and so Jesus worked on the Sabbath they rebuke him for this but Jesus answered them in verse 17 my father is working until now and I am working now this was horrifying to them to hear this right because it's a discussion among the rabbis that even though human beings are not allowed to work on the Sabbath God is working because God is upholding and sustaining the universe so God can do it and then Jesus says well the father does it so I do it too is that just claiming to be a normal human being well watch what happens verse 18 this was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was even calling God his own father making himself equal with God and so they think that Jesus is claiming to be some offspring of God who is going around as some separate rogue deity now violating the commands of God Jesus corrects them corrects their misunderstanding listen to what he says so Jesus said to them truly truly I say to you the son can do nothing of his own accord only what he sees the father doing Muslims would look at that he can do nothing of his own accord you see he's helpless he's a helpless Muslim that's what it actually says the son can do nothing of his own accord meaning his own will I'm not some rogue deity but only what he sees his father doing for whatever the father does that the son does likewise can a devout Muslim prophet say whatever God does I do it too no would make no sense for the father loves the son and shows him all that he himself is doing and greater works than these will he show him that you may marvel for as the father raises the dead and gives them life so also the son gives life to whom he will for the father judges no one but has given all judgment to the son that all may honor the son just as they honor the father words of Jesus here affirmed by Allah as the inspired preserved authoritative word of God Jesus says whoever does not honor the son does not honor the father who sent him if you do not notice what he said all may honor the son just as they honor the father would someone who has submitted to God as a mere human servant or a mere human prophet say the way you honor the father you have to honor me in the exact same way that's what Jesus says and Jesus says if you don't honor the son you don't honor the father who sent him so whatever you want to think Jesus means by father and so on he says unless you honor him the same way you honor the father you don't you're not honoring the father does Islam honor Jesus the same way you honor God no according to Jesus in the words that your God and your prophet affirm as the inspired preserved authoritative word of God you're not submitting to God properly and he goes on to say truly truly I say to you an hour is coming and is now here when the dead will hear the voice of the son of the father here will lift he talks about how he's the one who's going to raise the dead and then he goes on in verse 30 I can do nothing on my own now what's he mean there I'm just a helpless servant of God the way Muslims quote it no it's not what he means at all he's saying you guys think I'm some rogue deity now I'm not everything I'm doing is from the father he's one with the father so these are the kinds of passages you read and these are the passages that Muslims read and they find them awfully confusing guess what doesn't if you find them confusing then you're attacking Jesus who said these things and you claim to reflect it that's interesting Kenny says I keep trying to show that Jesus is God and that he's the son of God no trying to show that he's not a Muslim and so Jesus is the divine son of God as he claims to be repeatedly I went I drew attention to that why because that's what the Quran says is the worst possible sin the worst possible sin if Jesus is sinless he can't immediately be committing the worst possible sin therefore he's not a Muslim prophet Kenny says that Christians are now forced to concede the point that Jesus submitted to God does Kenny really think that this is something new to Christians I mean it's been built into our theology for 2000 years the triune God father son and holy spirit the second person of the Trinity enters into creation it specifically says he took on the nature of a servant and Kenny thinks he goes in this passage oh my goodness he's a servant what are we going to do this is all you can say you reject the theology but don't say it's confusing or or new to us it's not we've known about this for a very long time what does servant mean here does it mean Muslim no again Jesus submits to the father as the son to the father and he makes claims makes clear claims showing that he is the son in a very very unique sense as the one who is the final judge of all humanity Jesus says that he's the one who decides who goes to heaven and who goes to hell there's not the sort of thing a merely human Muslim prophet who's properly submitted to Allah should be saying um Kenny thinks that this is all confusing and God wouldn't do all this my goodness seriously Muslims can't even agree on whether Allah has literal body parts look at some of the debates that are going on in Islam do you think that's a problem if you think Christians got a problem here man check Islam and finally again Kenny condemns Jesus by saying that all of this is really confusing this theology is really confusing so he's condemning Jesus for being the source of this theology and he condemns Allah and Muhammad are affirming that as the inspired preserved authoritative word of Allah so every time I go here and I go to a clear passage of Jesus claiming that he's the one who will judge everyone at the final judgment claiming that Jesus is the one who raises the dead and Muslims say we don't believe that stuff you're claiming to know more than your God and you're condemning your God and your prophet for ordering us to judge by these scriptures that you say are wrong you got it thanks very much for that final rebuttal from you David we're going to go over to the open dialogue this is 40 minutes starting the timer now and one thing is just in case there's too much overlap in terms of speaking over each other that I'll have to cut it into one minute intervals and then because we're kind of on triage of microphones we're going to test and see how Akhoi is I'll turn mine off both of your guys's will be on and so we're going to test and see how Akhoi is in case we have to do you want to practice real quick check check one in case we have to do one minute intervals in which I'll turn mine off you can do that you can keep it like two minutes back and forth or something like that let's do that two minutes back and forth you can start Akhoi go Akhoi the floor is all yours I appreciate it I don't have my timer going so I'm just going to wing it here initially you want to give hand signals James or something yeah I'll do that 30 seconds okay so what comes to my mind when we're talking about this is if we look over at this picture again and we're wondering if Christians are referring to Jesus peace be upon them as the son of God that they also consider to actually be God who would he be praying to if this in fact was Jesus peace people obviously it's not Jesus but if Jesus is submitting himself and praying to another being how can he very well be the very being that he's praying to does this make sense or again does it make more sense that a human prophet peace be upon them would have submitted his will to the will of the one who sent him and gave all glory to our creator as he does numerous times in the Bible without one declaration of calling himself God and again Muslims don't believe this terminology you won't find that in the Quran that the you know it's referencing Jesus anyway and the father and so forth that's not in the Quran he kind of I think he realizes that he knows that so I'm not sure why he's making some of the arguments that he's made regarding you know Jesus or you know me confirming that Jesus was praying to the father I believe that our Jesus peace be upon him submitting to our creator our God and his God our Lord his Lord okay okay 30 seconds so so again when we talk about the Quran and he's trying to use the Quran to validate the Bible again we're talking about the original words that are revealed to the prophets and the messengers as revealed by a creator to the prophets and the messengers peace be upon them all in their original form but and this is not a debate about how many versions of the Bible are there are and how many you know if Jesus has God we're specifically debating the topic was Jesus a Muslim by the literal definition of the word and there's no arguing that it's a case closed okay two points there check check ready let me start the timer okay the Quran is affirming the scriptures in their original form totally false again the Quran repeatedly says that no one can change Allah's words the Quran was affirming scriptures that were there in the seventh century Christians in the seventh century Christians in the seventh century were ordered to to judge by the gospel Christians in the seventh century were told that they have no ground to stand upon unless they stand upon the gospel the Quran over and over and over again and it turns the gospel as it still existed in the time of Muhammad so notice this is affirming the Quran is affirming that Christians in the first century had reliable scriptures second century third century fourth century fifth century sixth century all the way into the seventh century all the way down into Arabia had authoritative scriptures from God what's that mean well guess what we have copies of our scriptures from before that time and after our time you know what the gospel says we have plenty plenty of copies we have collections all over the place we know what the gospel said during that time that's what Allah tells us to judge by Kenny asked who would Jesus be praying to again this is a relevant for the topic the question is whether he's a Muslim let me break down pretty quickly according to Christian theology you can reject it but at least get the theology right father son holy spirit have existed in a loving relationship for all eternity the son entered creation as Jesus of Nazareth again you can reject it but at least get the theology right the son entered creation as Jesus of Nazareth now that he entered creation is he suddenly going to become an atheist or is he going to continue the relationship with the father that he's had from all eternity and how would he do so if he's taken on the nature of a sermon through prayer so again you can say you don't like it you can say it doesn't make sense to you but at least get it so back to the Christian dilemma argument so he's resort to trying to prove that Jesus is God once again and creating red herring arguments about the the Quran validating the verses of the Bible and so forth validating the Bible and that's not even close to being true so but if we go back to the question Jesus peace be upon him the human being who was once an embryo who traveled the birth canal had to you know have bowel movements and so forth mean no disrespect he was a human being who chose willingly to submit to the will of our creator the very definition of the word Muslim and were arose by any other name would smell as sweet Christians regularly admitted as he has done so in this debate so Jesus we know submitted his will to the will of our creator the one who sent him and it's my intention here today to prove one thing and one thing alone is that Jesus is a Muslim by the literal etymological sense of the word and when we say that you know it should be conceded the point should be conceded when Christians themselves use the same terminology through English phrases and will readily admit because the Bible says so that Jesus lived in submission to the will of our greater we're not here to debate whether or not Jesus is the son of God we're not here to debate whether or not the Quran confirms the Bible we're not here to debate the Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam we're not here to debate those things we're here to ask answer the question who was brain Jesus praying to who is he submitting to who is he giving glory to he was doing that to he was giving all glory and praise and honor to our God our creator our Lord his Lord our God and his God and by the literal definition of the words what I'm just arguing the fact that when Muslims make claim to Jesus peace be upon them we have a right to do so because the consistency of a man defined who he is by the literal definition of this word Muslim if you're going to say it in the English language why can't we say it in the Arabic language with one simple word that's all that simply all we're doing that you'll kick over to David all right so Kenny again says Jesus is a Muslim again I grant I'll grant if you want to say Jesus submitted to God and you're saying that it's in a relevant sense then fine if that's what submission means then Muhammad got it wrong Muhammad is submitting to God wrong and Muslims are submitting to God wrong as well this is just what happens when your prophet affirms someone who completely contradicts his basic teachings and affirms books that completely contradict his teachings and affirms the divine protection of a community that completely contradict his teachings on basic things Kenny is still hung up on this idea whether we're talking about Jesus being God the son of God again I chose the topic if you want to debate the deity of Christ open to it I chose the issue of the son of God specifically because in the Quran that is a defining that is the ultimate defining characteristic of someone who has not submitted to God properly but the Quran affirms that Jesus is sinless so he couldn't have submitted to God improperly and he couldn't have been repeatedly committing the worst possible sin so if Kenny is saying Jesus submitted to God and the way Jesus submitted to God as we've seen is by repeatedly calling himself the son in a divine sense the one who judges the world the one who raises the dead at the resurrection if that's true submission to God if that is appropriate submission to God then the religion of Islam so the takeaway here is fine Jesus submitted to God and therefore Islam is false because Islam says that that way of doing it is not Islam alright then so Jesus submitted to God and he was a Muslim in some etymological generic sense that proves that the religion of Islam is false and corrupted and that Muhammad is a false prophet and I'm fine if you want to leave it there Kenny so what's interesting is that once again he's tried to create these red herrings trying to go to the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and try to discredit him this is typical of good antics but nevertheless what he did concede when he first started speaking is that he said I'll grant that submission is you know if you want to use it in that sense of the word I'll grant that he'd be called he didn't say that he didn't finish the sentence but he was and inevitably he was conceding the point that he knows that Jesus lived in submission to the will of our Creator now he's trying to create the argument that he somehow got it wrong because he's submitting to whom the father well this is biblical terminology and but nevertheless if you what the Christian dilemma is is that because of this terminology you have one submitting his will to the will of his Creator and at the same time he's being called the Son of God and at the same time people are putting together ambiguous verses to imply that Jesus the very God that he's submitting himself to and it's an ongoing loop of never ending dilemma for the Christians who have to have to juggle this in their minds and try to equate when they look at these photos of Jesus peace be upon them supposedly hanging in their churches and so forth no disrespect but who is he praying to is he praying to himself he's praying to a version of himself really does that really make sense or is he just a simple man one of the best man of mankind who lived his life in a willing submission to our Creator and again he's conceded the point that he knows that Jesus did that it's been my objective to clarify what it is in this debate my only objective is to clarify what it is that Muslims mean based on the video that he produced three months ago where he was claiming that we mean something that we don't my only objective was to clarify meaning is when we say Jesus is a Muslim with a literal etymological sense of the word and the consistency once again of a man defines exactly who he is ready for you alright so once again there's no need to defend I mean you don't even have to defend the idea that Jesus is the Son of God or that he's God because that's what it means if you're the Son of God in the divine sense that's your position in the Trinity all of that is irrelevant you could say Jesus is claiming to be the Son of God and he's insane but that would mean he's not a Muslim you could say that Jesus is only the Son of God in corrupt scriptures but that doesn't work with Islam either because Allah confirms those scriptures so the point is there's no way out Kenny just said that they view Jesus as one of the best men to mankind that's the point we're having here according to Islam the worst thing you can do is associate a partner with God when we read the Bible Jesus called himself the Son over and over again as did everyone else so Jesus is calling himself the Son he can't be one of the best he can't be one of the best men ever he can't be one of the greatest prophets ever Islam would have to be false you can't be doing that not only that I would have to say if you look at the impact Jesus had that his followers had been worshiping him ever since so for 2,000 years I mean in his own time they were worshiping him if this is the impact Jesus is having on the people around him and that he's had down through the ages then you'd have to say unless someone came along later and made all that stuff up you'd have to say Jesus is one of the worst people ever and yet Islam claims that he's one of the best this is the point of this entire discussion Islam is incoherent on this point it affirms scriptures which claim that Jesus is the Son of God and that's the worst possible sin in Islam is claiming that you're the Son of God and therefore Jesus would somehow be one of the worst sinners ever and yet he's being called one of the greatest prophets ever no way out of this except deception okay great so so no so let's say Jesus is the Son of God so that would make Jesus peace be upon him himself divine so he is a God submitting himself to and praying to and giving glory to God okay so balance that out in your mind and see if that makes sense or does it make more sense that a human being who is simply a messenger is submitting himself to the will of God you put that on the scales and you decide that in your own time but again Jesus peace be upon him does it call himself the Son of God in the Quran so Muslims have no problem the problem is not with us the problem is the Christian dilemma in that Jesus is submitting to God as the Son of God who is supposed to be God himself in some capacity in this trinity concept and so it's an ongoing dilemma now Jesus peace be upon him himself these are words according to men right Bible or words according to anonymous authors and so these anonymous authors are making these proclamations that Jesus used this terminology do I believe as a Muslim that Jesus referred to our creator as father in a literal sense of the word no and I don't believe that as a Muslim he would have used this terminology at all however the anonymous authors of the Bible have done so God is not the author of confusion I agree with that we as Muslims can accept that but the anonymous authors of the Bible most certainly are because the contradictions are very clear in the opening statement I mentioned how could it be that in these very verses where Jesus is over and over and over again submitting to the will of our creator is also claiming to be the Son of God or God himself in these very ambiguous verses at the same time is that a clear message from our creator that would make sense it is not it would be unjust for our creator to give this type of a message versus hero Israel our Lord our God is one Lord that's a clear statement that we can rely on and make it clear have a clear conscious understanding of went over a little bit I do apologize I agree with you well Kenny just called a law unjust so it's unjust for our creator to give us this confusing message what does Allah tell us Christians to go by this confusing message this is what we're commanded to judge by this is what we are commanded to stand upon as our scripture again in the relevant passage in sort of five of the Quran Jews came to Muhammad to judge a dispute Allah's response is no they need to go back to the Torah that's their revelation that's not the Quran is not for them and then just a few verses later let the people of the gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein we're supposed to judge by the gospel that Kenny says is anonymous and we can't trust it Kenny says he doesn't believe that Jesus used this terminology he doesn't believe that Jesus used what terminology the terminology and the gospel that we have that his God affirms he's talking about confusion God wouldn't be this confusing why would your God order us to judge by our book isn't that as confusing as anything can possibly be if your God orders us to judge by a book that says over and over and over again like a beating drum that Jesus is the son of God who died on the cross for sins and rose from the dead and he doesn't mean it that would be as confusing as anything else in all of history so you just got a problem here Kenny if Jesus is a mere human being as you claim then Islam is false because Jesus went around claiming to be the son of God he would be very very bad for claiming that about himself if he was not that if he wasn't the son of God he would be bad for claiming to be the son of God and so Islam would be false the alternative is that he leads the son of God in which case Islam is false how are you going to get around that the scripture has been corrupted then Islam is false because the Quran affirms our scriptures there's no way out ladies and gentlemen was Jesus a Muslim in any relevant sense if you want to go animalogical sense and say he truly submitted and that's good great then Muhammad is a false prophet because Muhammad contradicted the true submission of Jesus so yes the Quran does indeed say for the Jews and the Christians to judge by their scriptures now consider what's been stated so far we've addressed contradictions within those scriptures we've addressed anonymous authors of those scriptures and if you don't do any research on your own you'll literally find that there are literal dozens of versions of the Bible not just not just translations we're talking about different versions with different numbers of books and so forth missing passages and some that are added and some some that are not and others therefore judge by what's been revealed in your scriptures what judged by your scriptures and should that not create a problem for you when in those scriptures we have Jesus peace be upon him submitting his will to our creator and in those scriptures you have to take these ambiguous statements that are being made to try to suggest that Jesus is the son of God and also God himself with all this you know the contradictions that exist in various places so yes judge by your scriptures do exactly that put it on the scales of logic and reason and decide for yourself don't just rely on what the preacher is saying on Sunday morning on Wednesday night be a reader instead of a repeater don't just repeat what you've been told over and over again be a reader instead of a repeater because what happens is most people because it's easy most people don't like to read it's a lot easier just to go and listen to what the preacher man says on Sunday morning because mom and dad have been telling me the same thing since you was a little kid they also told you about Santa Claus he didn't exist but the fact of the matter is be a reader instead of a repeater put these things on the scale in your own mind think logically for yourself and does it make sense that Jesus peace be upon him who's praying to another as his God is actually God himself that's not even the what it amounts to is that Jesus is in that prayer he's submitting himself in that prayer to another and you know that's that makes him a Muslim again with a literal etymological sense of the word well it's actually awesome that Kenny agrees that Allah orders us to judge by our scriptures even though he clearly says that repeatedly you find that in the Quran you find that in the Hadith in fact in in Sunnah al-Adod Muhammad tells the Jews to bring him a copy of the Torah and he says I believe in you and the one who revealed you and he puts the Torah on this judgment seat and tells the Jews that the Torah is their judge Muhammad also says in Jamiat that Jews and Christians have the Torah and the Gospel in the same way that Muslims have the Quran makes no sense if it's been corrupted and it's very clear that Allah orders us to judge by and live by our scriptures that's strange to hear a Muslim admit what the Quran so obviously says so hats off to Kenny for that but then Kenny says yeah but once you judge by your scriptures you're gonna be you're gonna be confused well that's interesting so he says God is not the author of confusion in the sense that God's not going to confuse you by this stuff and yet his God orders us to judge by these things that Kenny says are very confusing I have to say I don't find don't find it terribly confusing it's confusing the sense of hard to get your mind around but yeah all kinds of things are like that does Jesus submitting to the father cause a problem for Christians no that is foundational to Christian theology there is no Christianity without the doctrine of the incarnation there's no Christianity without that it's foundational to Christianity why is Kenny acting like this is all somehow shocking news to us as for dozens of versions of the Bible I still don't know what he's talking about but he mentioned that there are textual variants and things like that if that's a problem fine there are textual variants in the history of the Quran Muhammad's followers couldn't even Muhammad's companions couldn't even agree on what was supposed to go into the Quran Ibn Massood had 111 chapters and his Mubayyub and Qab had 116 chapters and his the authoritative version now has 114 chapters we open up the Muslim sources Sahih Muslim says that two entire chapters were lost cause Muslims hardened their hearts and didn't keep reciting them large passages came up missing because the only ones who had them died in battle in the world today you have different you're called the kir'at but you have different Quran's in different parts of the world so if there's a problem and this is all confusing then Islam is confusing once again and Kenny you got you got some problems here the topic is whether Jesus was a Muslim and Islam looks like is crumbling you can say that that doesn't make it a reality David Wood these are just techniques that he does consistently but nevertheless back to the Quran saying to judge by your scriptures in regards to the story about the Jews and so forth bringing the Torah to the Prophet Muhammad SAW they were trying to entrap the Prophet and trying to see what he was going to say about the punishment that they were planned to invoke on some people and trying to see what his stance was going to be on it and he told them quite clearly judge by your book I believe in what's been revealed here you judge by it and the same thing we're saying we know what's been revealed in your books but you judge by it you put it on the scales in your own mind and weigh these for yourself every individual listening to this debate now and in the future you put all of this on the scales of the logic and reason and ask yourself by the ask yourself by the literal etymological sense of the word Muslim one who submits to God and sources for this definition about six of them during the course of this debate my opening statement does that balance out? one who submits himself to God would by definition be a Muslim in the etymological sense of the word that's the topic of the debate that's what I came here to prove and that's been proven today now we have to resort to the Christian dilemma and try to attack the Prophet Muhammad and try to validate the Quran I mean the Bible with the books of the Quran if you keep reading the verses of the Quran we don't have time to go through all this in this debate but we can set up another debate about whether or not the Quran validates the Bible and we'll see clearly in that debate I assure you because truth is made clear from falsehood the Quran does not validate the Bible as a matter of fact it warns Christians and Jews about altering their verses and so forth and we see the evidence of that by example the multiple versions that I mentioned and that's another topic as well but we don't want to get off on a red herring on that so after saying that the Quran does command us to judge by our scriptures Kenny now says the Quran doesn't validate our scriptures which is weird because again Allah says that he revealed our scriptures he says that we still had the Torah in the Gospel during the time of Muhammad says that no one can change his words no one can alter his words says that the Torah and the Gospel were still authoritative over Christians and Jews during his time in fact if you read the Quran very different from the perspective you get from Muslims today the perspective you get from Muslims today is the Torah and the Gospel have been corrupted and therefore everyone has to use the Quran not the position of the Quran the position of the Quran is that the Arabs were the last people to get their revelation and once the Arabs had their revelation now everyone had their revelation everyone has had their prophets Muhammad is the seal of the prophets because he was just last that's the perspective the Quran tells other people to go back to their scriptures you Christians you judge by your scripture you Jews you judge by your scripture Muslims we judge by the Quran everyone's got their scripture people eventually found out as we're seeing here today that the Torah and the Gospel just don't line up with the Quran and so later Muslims were forced to say the scriptures have been changed even though that completely contradicts what both Allah and Muhammad repeatedly declare so there's no way around it and by the way you said you'd be willing to debate whether the Quran but that was the topic I suggested you said you'd rather debate whether Muhammad whether Jesus was a prophet I mean was it was a Muslim and happy to do that but you can't get away from the fact that your scriptures affirm the inspiration preservation and authority of our scriptures as far as Jews and Christians that is a condemnation as we twist the scriptures with our tongues and so on that doesn't mean the text has been corrupted I mean if you're a Muslim you obviously believe that there are Muslims who twist the scriptures with their tongues you wouldn't say that means that the Quran has been corrupted and so your book affirms our book warns us not to twist our scriptures well great we don't need to twist our scriptures to see that over and over and over again Jesus calls himself the Son of God which would be the worst possible sin in Islam and therefore not what Muhammad meant by Islam so I was never notified you didn't notify me about a different topic as a matter of fact so let me suggest it okay anyway so I would shame on you anyway so I wouldn't he might have asked us for both topics I just said what you wanted to say yeah I've never seen the other topic but nevertheless we can go down that road but again judge by your scriptures yes judge by your scriptures and you cannot change the words of our Creator the original words given to the prophets and the messengers peace to be upon them all and so what we're dealing with when it comes to the books of the Bible we're dealing with the words of Allah our God our Creator whatever word you want to use for our Creator the words of our Creator as revealed to the prophets and the messengers we all believe that transpired and we believe that the original words that he gave them can't be altered and so forth however the books of the Bible aren't that the books of the Bible are words according to men men pin these these verses down now yes men wrote down verses of the Quran but also memorize the verses of the Quran alright so that's why Allah has promised in the Quran by example to protect the Quran to the day of judgment in the memory of the minds of the Muslims so yes the Quran is the example matter of fact of Allah proving that his word cannot be changed although the Christians and the Jews beforehand had their scribes and so forth and people making these claims and these anonymous authors did indeed write things with their own hand and that's what the Quran clearly warns Christians about in the Quran so yes you can't change the original message of our Creator but obviously these words according to men aren't the original words of our Creator ready so the book that we're commanded to judge by and Kenny acknowledged that we're commanded to judge by it he now says it's a word of men this is very interesting and the Quran is only affirming some original again not what the Quran is saying it would be very easy it would be the easiest thing in the universe for Allah to say hey I inspired your original books but then you corrupted would be very easy how hard is that I just said it if that's what Allah really meant then he is a horrible horrible communicator because when he went to say what he wanted to say according to Kenny was hey your books have been corrupted go with the Quran or something like that or just find the parts that line up with Islam if that's what he meant and it comes out let the people of the gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein Christians and Jews you have no ground to stand upon except the gospel and the Torah if what he really meant is what Kenny is saying hey don't trust those words of men and it's coming out judge by your book you've got the word of God no one can change Allah's words then Allah is simply a really really really bad communicator and it's just weird because every debate we have in our debates about Muhammad and Aisha I'm the one defending the reliability of hadith passages and here we are and I'm the one who has more respect for Allah's statements than Muslims do Allah says judge by the the gospel you say David what does Allah mean there it sounds like he means judge by the gospel you ask a Muslim what he means the opposite of what he's saying your book's been corrupted your book's been written by man don't trust it you need the Quran the opposite of what he says over and over and over again so we're just in this odd situation odd situation where D. Wood is once again the champion of defending the clarity of the Quran so David Wood is very confused and takes everything out of context regarding the Quran so if you would I challenge everyone listening right now to get your own copy of the Quran translation of the Quran read it in the English language so you can understand I recommend the clear Quran that way it's in you know it's a language that anyone can comprehend read it for yourself judge for yourself be a reader instead of a repeater don't just listen to words from people like David Wood who's got a very large following and so forth who's very convincing in his arguments and so forth I challenge you to grab a Quran read it for yourself don't burn it don't poke holes in it and all those things like they like to do in their mockery read it for yourself challenge yourself read it for yourself be a reader instead of a repeater but again if you if you read these books and this is not what the topic is so now we've we've gone down this red herring trail here when we've already I believe we're doing so because I believe we're conceded the fact the point of the debate which is that we know that Jesus by the literal etymological sense of the word was submitting his will to the will of our crater that's been established that was my goal here in this debate that goal has been accomplished so but if you if you we don't have time to debate whether or not the Bible is corrupted and whether or not the Quran has validated or not if he wants to do that we'll set it up we'll make that magic happen but that's not what we're here to argue so I want to try to get back on track about what the original argument of this debate is in the Bible Jesus is submitting himself this Gaultier says about the Book of John in particular the most frequented book of the Bible where Jesus you know Christians go to try to prove Jesus is not just the son of God but God himself 47 times he's living in submission to the will of God not one verse of that book of John says unambiguously that Jesus is God or and so forth so put that on the scales once again and you judge for yourself ready for you well I'm glad Kenny called me convincing it's interesting Kenny challenges everyone to read the Quran on the topics we're dealing about right now I can actually I can actually help everyone so if you want we're discussing what the Quran says about our scriptures keep in mind this is very this is not a side point this is pretty foundational if Allah tells us to go to the scriptures that confirm that Jesus is the son of God then if Kenny says he's a Muslim then that is correct submission to God Islam would be false so this is actually very important but if you want to take Kenny's advice and read what the Quran says you can read it all the way through it's disorganized so I can help bring a little clarity here you can go to every single passage in the Quran that so much as mentions the gospel that's 3 verse 3 3 verse 48, 3 verse 65 5 verse 46, 5 verse 47 5 verse 66, 5 verse 68 surah 5 verse 110 surah 7 verse 157 surah 9 verse 111 surah 48 verse 29 and surah 57 verse 27 look up all those passages find me one single word of criticism find me one single word even suggesting or hinting that our scriptures have been altered all you ever find is Allah affirming the inspiration and the preservation and the authority of our scriptures and therefore if we look at this we have to conclude that our scriptures are authoritative as good as gold we go to our scriptures what do we find Jesus is the Divine Son of God who died on the cross for sins and rose from the dead therefore Islam is false if you don't want us to conclude that fine the Quran is wrong for telling us to judge by our scriptures either way Islam is just wrong and so the ultimate takeaway of all of this is there is no Islamic position on the life of Jesus Islam affirms him and yet completely contradicts the things that he did and because of that Islam simply self-destructs okay so what I'll do here bear with me one second before I start this two minutes Jesus from the Quran okay so let's what does the Quran say about Jesus it says to say old prophet Muhammad in Surah Al-Imran chapter 3 verse 84 say old prophet we believe in Allah and what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and his descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and other prophets from their Lord we make no distinction between any of them and to him we fully submit right so we believe that the words of Allah that were revealed to the prophets and the messengers is legitimate right we don't believe the words of the Bible are legitimate and so by example it says indeed we have sent revelation to you old prophet as we sent revelation to Noah and the prophets after him we also sent revelation to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and his descendants as well as Jesus Jonah, Aaron and Solomon and to David we gave the Psalms this is talking about the original words that were given to the prophets and the messengers now it goes on to say the Messiah would never be too proud to be a servant this is what the Quran is saying about Jesus peace be upon him the Messiah would never be too proud to be a servant nor would the angels nearest to Allah those who are too proud and arrogant to worship him will be brought before him all together and when we say Allah again we're talking about our Creator and arose by any other name with Samantha Sweeney and again in Surah Al-Mayeda it says indeed those who say Allah is the Messiah the son of Mary who have fallen into disbelief say who has the power to prevent Allah if he chose to destroy the Messiah the son of Mary his mother and everyone in the world all together to Allah belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and everything in between he creates whatever he wills and Allah is most capable of everything so Jesus peace be upon him is in submission to this very God this God that based on these words if they were taken out of the context of the Quran and you just heard these words everyone in here that is God conscious would agree with what you've heard here except for the word Allah Allah is simply an Arabic word that means God but you would agree with everything that's being stated there and so would Jesus peace be upon him the consistency of a man to find who he is Kenny brings up what the Quran says about Jesus and this is a sort of interesting topic in itself the Quran affirms that Jesus is born of a virgin unlike other prophets so Jesus is born of a virgin according to the Quran Jesus lives the most miraculous life in history he goes around performing all these miracles according to the Quran Jesus is the word of Allah which again in the Gospel of John is a title of divinity but Jesus is the word of Allah meaning that Allah speaks Jesus out very different from the way Allah creates everything else when Allah creates he just says B and it is so Jesus is the word of Allah Jesus is called a spirit from Allah Jesus is called the Messiah Jesus is said to that he's going to return and Jesus is sinless why is this relevant Muhammad doesn't perform these miracles Muhammad is not the word of Allah Muhammad is not a spirit from Allah Muhammad is not the Messiah Muhammad is not sinless he's told that he has to repent of his sins and ask forgiveness for his sins so what's amazing is that Jesus in the Quran is vastly superior to Muhammad and every other prophet in the Quran and the real question would be why why is Jesus so incredibly unique even in the Muslim sources what's the point Muslims don't have an answer but the real explanation if Kenny wants to say hey you have to go to your scripture and you have to really think about these things and think that these things make sense why is Jesus so radically different when he is just another prophet well it makes sense if Muhammad is basically copying things that Christians said without understanding the implications of them it makes perfect sense in a Christian context where Jesus is the incarnate son it makes perfect sense for Jesus to be unique it makes no sense in Islam so thank you Kenny we have another reason to think that Islam has some problems here that's actually the last one we can do before we go to the closing and the closing will be you first though Kenny you'll have a full 5 minutes and the floor is all yours so there we go down the red herring trail again where he's gone to back to Muhammad peace be upon him because the reality of it is in this debate that the consistency of a man defined to be and Jesus peace be upon him by the literal etymological sense of the word is indeed a Muslim he was one living in submission to the will of our Creator yes the Quran confirms that Jesus was born of a virgin and the miracles and that Jesus was a word from Allah and matter of fact the Quran says in his comparison to that God says just be well he just said be about Jesus the Quran says the submittal to this Jesus of Jesus is that of the likeness of Adam and then Allah said be and he is just like he said let there be life and let there be this and let there be that be and he is and so Jesus peace be upon him over on Kenobi whatever you want to call this guy in this picture here could he say the same thing did he say and the Creator existed no on the contrary whom Faikoon be and Jesus was Allah God is the greatest and Jesus declared that himself as I mentioned in my opening statement the father is greater than I the father is greater than all the terminology father might be a period word or whatever but again we don't believe he would use that terminology because of the confusion but nevertheless he's still declaring that our God our Creator is greater than all so it says those who say Allah is the Messiah the son of Mary have certainly fallen into disbelief once again the Messiah son of Mary was no more than a messenger many messengers had come and gone before him his mother was a woman of truth they both ate food and and it says see how we see see how we make the signs clear to them yet see how they are deluded from the truth it goes on to say in the Quran the most believers among the children of Israel were condemned in the revelations of David and Jesus son of Mary that was for disobedience and for violations and on the day of judgment Allah will say oh Jesus son of Mary remember my favor upon you and your mother and how supported you with the Holy Spirit so you spoke to people in your infancy and adulthood how I taught you rioting wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel how you motored a bird from clay by my will and breathed into it by my will and how you healed the blind and the lepers by my will and how you brought forth dead to life by my will and I prevented the children of Israel from harming you when you came to them with clear proofs and the disbelievers among them said this is nothing but pure magic and one more verse remember when the disciples said oh Jesus son of Mary would your Lord be willing to send down to us a table spread with food from heaven and Jesus answered fear a lot and the disbelievers now this is consistent with the person who would say here Israel our Lord our God is one for the father is greater than I the father is greater than all it would be consistent with a man who would routinely as these Christian scholars that I've mentioned have said themselves Muslims don't have to say it Jesus lived every day of his life according to Frank Lobach every day of his life consistently to the will of God our creator our God or creator whatever you want to refer to our creator as we said a lot in the Arabic language but nevertheless I set out to illustrate that basically clarify from the Muslim side what it is that we mean when we say Jesus was a Muslim and he's conceded the point that a person who is in submission to the will of our creator he said alright well we'll take that if that's part of the definition well yes it is part of the definition and that's part of the definition that we do indeed mean when we say Jesus was a Muslim so I thank everyone for listening I mean no disrespect for anything that I said and surely all praise is due to Allah I bear witness that the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is the final servant and seal of our prophets Allah Akbar Thank you very much Kenny for that closing statement we'll kick it over to David for five minutes as well thanks very much David the floor is all yours alright Kenny says that his goal has been accomplished here he wanted to show that Jesus was a Muslim in a strict etymological sense that would mean that any person in history who believes he's submitting to God has submitted to God I'm totally fine if you want to say anyone can submit to God by doing anything but kind of irrelevant for the way Muslims generally mean that Jesus was a Muslim certainly irrelevant to the way the Quran calls Jesus a Muslim but as I always tell Kenny I'm willing to go down the road do you want to go down you just got to pay the toll and the toll here is that if Jesus truly submitted to God and the Quran affirms our scriptures that say the things he said about himself then Islam has to be false Muhammad got it wrong so if Kenny is willing to throw the Quran and Muhammad under the bus to score an etymological point again other than that road with him he's happy to pay the toll Kenny said that Jesus that God created Jesus just by saying be and so no the Quran says that Jesus is the word of Allah so notice that's different other things if Allah wants to create a bottle Allah says be and a bottle pops into existence there are exceptions to this rule when we talk about the spirit that's something that Allah breathes out so this originates from within Allah and Jesus was the word of Allah this originates from within Allah so there's something different even here minor points Kenny said that the Gospel of John doesn't call Jesus God I mean the book literally the opening verses in the beginning was the word the word was with God the word was God and if that's not clear enough it goes on to say that the word created everything that's been created and then it says the word became flesh so the word that became flesh Jesus created everything that's been created John chapter 8 Jesus says before Abraham was born I am why do the people there pick up stones to stone him for blasphemy because unlike someone who might hear that today they understood this is the name that God referred to himself by in the book of Exodus so I took this as blasphemy towards the end of the Gospel of John Jesus Apostle Thomas calls him my Lord and my God and then you have all these passages about Jesus being the final judge of all humanity which according to the Old Testament that would have been God Jesus is claiming that for himself Jesus says that he's the one who judges everyone which according to both the Bible and the Quran is what God is supposed to do if Jesus wasn't if Jesus meant that he's a human prophet he's got some problems there so we talked about Allah if Allah is telling Jews and Christians to judge by our scriptures and he doesn't mean it Allah is a terrible communicator if Jesus meant that he's a merely human prophet Jesus is a terrible communicator so that happens to be the Islamic solution for everything no one somehow means what they say whether you're talking about Allah or Muhammad or Jesus or the followers according to modern Muslim none of them mean what they say they all have some sort of Tourette syndrome and they keep blurting things out that they don't actually mean so Islam means submission I have to say if you want to submit to God and God orders you to judge by scriptures then like guess what in order to obey for us to submit to Allah at least for Christians to submit to Allah which would lead us away from Muhammad and away from Islam so just to recap you've got the Bible which confirms all sorts of things about Jesus that contradict Islam and the one we focused on is Jesus claimed to be the son of God because this is all over the gospel that we are ordered to judge by and Islam says that this is the worst possible sin anyone can commit there's no way out of this there's no way out of this someone else could say I don't believe that any of that happened I believe these scriptures were made up centuries later or I believe that Jesus did say these things but I believe he was crazy you could say all those things a Muslim who believes in the Quran is not allowed to say those things because Allah has ordered them to adhere to certain things and he has affirmed certain people and certain scriptures as authoritative so you don't have those options we are sent to scriptures as the authoritative scriptures about Jesus and they completely contradict Islam and so they fall apart the Da'a today try to get around this by basically misrepresenting the Quran and misrepresenting the Bible and what's weird is I understand that five centuries ago if you were living five centuries ago and you recognized wait the Quran is affirming these scriptures and these scriptures contradict the Quran wasn't exactly a safe place to say that sort of thing you get your head chopped off but Kenny you are living in a different time and you are free to recognize the Quran as affirming scriptures that completely contradict the Quran and so there are two possibilities if Christians have the word of God then Islam is false because Islam contradicts our scriptures if we don't have the word of God Islam is false because Islam affirms our scriptures either way Islam is false thank you very much David for that closing as well we'll have about 20 minutes of Q&A so if you happen to have a question I only ask that first we have questions that are related to the debate per se and then more extraneous questions if you have them as well as we didn't mention it before but there are bathrooms just outside of this room so if you go through these doors they'll be right across the hall in case you need to use the restroom and we also have debate con four we just launched tickets for it it's in Dallas, Texas it's this November, November 4th you don't want to miss it it's going to be great so if you're listening online as well check out the description box we have the link for debate con four tickets there but with that we're going to jump into the Q&A thanks very much Matt we're ready for you who's he going after hey guys I have two questions but it would be unfair so I flipped the coin and sorry Kenny you lost my understanding because this debate is was he a Muslim both of you are saying that you believe that Jesus submitted himself to the world creator and both of you are saying that Jesus did not submit himself to Islam as we understand it today so I have three names and I would like to know from Kenny would you defend or not for each of these three that they were also Muslim John Baptist Constantine Gray in the first and David Wood so I mentioned in my opening statement that a person to be a Muslim in the even in the etymological sense of the word requires someone who's submitting themselves to the will of our creator and our creator alone otherwise as a matter of fact he made reference to I could be a Buddhist well I couldn't be a Buddhist because I am a person who submits my will to the will of my creator and my creator alone so if John Baptist I don't know much about Constantine I've heard that I've read different things about Constantine who's the third person you mentioned in that please David Wood David Wood so no I would call them Muslims with the current definition of the word meaning that they are people who associate partners with our creator in that sense that person wouldn't be a Muslim so that's where we stand on that I mean it's to be a Muslim in the law sense of the word we have to submit ourselves to our creator we follow the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him as the final prophet we believe in the words of the Quran and we believe in the angels we believe in heaven and hell and so forth so yes there's Christians that believe these things but when you associate partners with our creator that would exclude you from being considered a Muslim in the current modern interpretation of what a Muslim is but Jesus peace be upon him he certainly wasn't praying to himself he wasn't praying to any trinity he was praying directly to and only to our creator and so in that sense of the word he was indeed a Muslim no doubt about it if David Wood by example is praying to Jesus he most likely does he's praying to Jesus not that I believe this is Jesus in this picture and Jesus was praying to another you know then there's no way that David Wood could be a Muslim but surely Allah guides those whom he chooses he has the opportunity to do so there's been people that are worse than David Wood if you can believe that that have converted to Islam or accepted Islam, reverted to Islam rather so surely Allah guides those whom he chooses it says for those who disbelieve it matters not if you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe Allah has set a seal over their hearts and over their hearing, over their eyes is available to them but the penalty they bring upon themselves so that's my answer for you Matt thank you thanks so much for coming folks let's go around and applause we appreciate you being here with that we'll have an intermission we'll start the next debate we'll see you in 30 minutes so thanks so much for being here and we'll see you in 30 minutes I saw what you did there Matt folks if you're watching at home the debate con 4 is on November 4 I should be claiming that I'm a Muslim all the entire time in the case you're far from Texas hit that subscribe button as all of the debate con debates will be live streamed from the channel I actually can't take it live with my backpack oh you're fine I'll see you again I'll be around again because this is yours