 Good evening everybody and welcome to entrepreneurial exchange second edition here insights from entrepreneurs before I introduce our guests very excited about tonight's lineup and a guest is truly a kind of a legend, a legend in Vermont and even nationally in terms of entrepreneurship and number of patents that she's had and things that she's developed over the years. But before that, just want to lay out, lay out kind of the evening for you. My name is John right now I'm representing CFES brilliant pathways, which is a nonprofit that helps underserved students from around the country get to college or career and we're lucky enough to be partnering with UVM who's putting on the pitch challenge and really doing a lot of the leg work website. They bring a lot of expertise to the to the field University of Vermont certainly a leader in that space. We appreciate everybody joining us tonight we know you have some ideas some questions about your own patch and one of our main goals is to give you some tools to help and help you kind of refine that and get it to where you want. So, in the meantime, I'll turn it over to brick well she's going to talk a little bit about some of the kind of the nuts and bolts of the of the patch and some helpful, helpful dates and things coming ahead to help you along. Thank you john it's really great to have all of you I know that it might be a little early might be a little late in the day so we really appreciate you being logged in wherever you're watching this from. We hope that you are enjoying all of the different webinars we are doing I just wanted to give you kind of a quick rundown of the pitch challenge as a whole just in case you'll see the QR code on there that will link to our Vermont pitch challenge website. There's where you'll be able to sign up for our interest form if you have not already I encourage you to do so, you can sign up for the rest of our monthly webinars on there as well. These are all going to provide some really great insights for you as well as tips and tricks, and kind of ideas for really how to craft your own business pitch and proposal and ultimately that's going to be what you use for the challenge piece of this which is really exciting. You will see a little bit about kind of the main questions that we're asking you to answer with your pitch on the screen there as well as our accepted submission formats that we're doing. We want you to be creative with this we want you to really show who you are through your business ideas. So we encourage you to submit videos podcasts or written documents whatever you feel is going to help you the best and really tell us your story in the best way. Just as a reminder, the submissions will open January 15 they will be open for one month exactly so they will close February 15, and then we will start judging so we have a lot of time for you to craft your ideas. And then we also just wanted to remind you that the grand prize for this is a full scholarship tuition and fees to the University of Vermont for each team member who is participating. Our second and third place winners will receive a $5,000 check for each team and fourth and fifth place will receive $1,000. And we really encourage you to really be crafting these throughout the next couple months, while you figure out exactly how you want to go about this so enough of the housekeeping you are always welcome to email us at btpitch at uvm.edu, but you've heard enough for me so I'm going to turn it back over to john. Thanks bro. Yeah, this is, it's an honor for me and to introduce tonight's guest Lisa Lindell co founder of the job brought who I had the pleasure of talking with in a webinar. A while ago and a personal note growing up in Vermont she certainly on the on the Mount Rushmore of inventors in the state you know you can Ben and Jerry's the list is long from from especially when she back in her day she's University of Vermont grad. 1977 and there was at that time, a culture in Vermont where there really was some kind of innovative organic inventions that came out of there and then we kind of spin forward here and we've got a number of companies that you know I'm thinking beta Mark satellite propulsion company there's a new, a new breed if you will, in Vermont, and more in the tech space that's really exploding now but Lisa last time we talked gave some incredibly insightful ideas and just thoughts about how she launched. She launched jog bra at that time that I think are still very pertinent today. So, she's in the National Adventure solid fame. Like I said she has 10 patent and she's written two books. She's she's been successful in multiple spaces. I will I'll turn it over to Lisa have her talk a little bit about her herself and sort of, if you would at least we'd love to hear kind of, you know, when you first got the idea for for job bra and and then how you sort of went about the thought process of kind of launching it. Happy, happy to do that happy, happy to do that I, although I have to say that it was never my intention to start a business to run a business. The idea of a sports bra was totally new at the time it didn't such a thing did not exist which I talked to a lot of young women these days who say, you're kidding what hasn't there always been a sports bra and No, no, not really. But I was a runner and uncomfortable. And also, as you mentioned john you have to think of the times this was in the mid 1970s and that was a period of great growth and change big change I mean it was this second wave feminism it was called and we were we are mothers have been brought up to be mothers nurses teachers there you know women were still in very tight stereotypical roles when I was growing up. And I think today they would say what we did with the sports bra was we were being disruptors. Because it was in 1972 that the title nine was created and title nine. One of you that aren't familiar was said that any institution receiving federal funds had had to. We're talking about universities and colleges and such. They had to have equal availability for sports for women as well as men up until then they're, you know, just, they were only funding men's sports so that made a big change. The title nine couldn't do. What it couldn't do was it could pay for the teams and it could pay help, you know reach out, but those women who wanted to participate were still self conscious and uncomfortable going on the field. The sports bra took care of really helped with that. It's kind of like the one to punch. So that's I mean but I was not plant. I mean I was a runner. I was uncomfortable, and it started out as a joke. Really it was my sister started jogging she said what do you do to get comfortable. You know, I've tried everything there's nothing to do and she said why isn't there a jockstrap for women. That was I thought that's not such a bad idea and sat down and wrote down all the things such a garment would have to do. I was really excited about it I thought wow maybe there's a solution to this problem. But I don't so the thought of making a garment you know what. But I friend of mine was an excellent seamstress she was a costume designer, Polly Smith and she helped me build that she actually figured out that first prototype and it really was. To those of you that have heard the story. It really was our first working prototype was to jockstrap that we bought in the UVM bookstore. And Polly cut them apart and so back together so that the cups were now encapsulating breasts, and the butt straps were now crossing the shoulders and the waistband became a ribband, and that was actually it worked. And did you that's fascinating so just thinking about students listening now I mean you know that today you put this pitch together you've got, you know this plan you got funding you got you know production. This was sort of you were just kind of going it sounds like you had a great idea and you said this before, if you can't identify a need, you're probably wasting your time. Yeah. Oh, well, and I was, I, you know, it was my need and I made the assumption that other women other athletic women also had that need. You know I asked around a little bit, and that turned out to be in fact the case. But if if what you're trying to do is not meeting a need. Why are you doing it. Now I could argue that as well. But really, there are three. I think I've said this before to I mean there are really three things you have to think about when you're crafting a business, and one you know there's the product. There's the people, and then there's the place. And is the product meeting a need, or is it improving something that already exists. And the people part is not just the customers that are experiencing that need, or need to be made aware of the need. But it's also the people that are involved in helping this entity come into being. You know, like, like my friend who helped me, and the woman who became my business partner who had the passion for the business end of it. That wasn't nascent in me. And then place of course that is so interesting because the fact that now, I mean when I started my business. I was in the sporting goods industry it was you know that it was before any computers it was before the internet it was before we had this incredible global marketplace now. And that actually makes the people part more important biography anymore, or I mean it really is who is experiencing this need, and how do I reach them. And it makes the people you you bring in to help you, even even more important, I think. That's fascinating me the place piece I mean like you said back then it was like where you know it was just sort of your immediate surroundings, of course then you went, you went national but place now is everywhere I mean you know, online sales you can you can you know a massive audience pretty easily. And when you know when you were talking about when you first launched and you got a lot of or you started getting orders, you know coming in and you're like, how are we going to fill these. Talk a little bit about that because that's kind of fascinating when you had people just jumping in and helping to produce the product and then get it out. And it was interesting because I had just trying. I was at UVM and I was just starting a master's program there. And I was thinking how can I. I was an older what's then was called an older returning students so I was married at the time and working and trying to do this thing and it would be a nice little mail order business on the side what that would help put me through school. And boy was I wrong with right away that we put a little tiny ad in a running magazine, and we started getting calls from dealers from retailers. And in fact, I didn't even know what the term dealer meant. I didn't know it was the same as a retailer. And, but again, so, so many people were so helpful one of my favorite stories is when we realize that we're sort of writing this incredible wave that we hadn't expected. You know, I knew nothing I didn't know about orders I didn't know about retail we, we had to find out what terms we should use for sales we had to create an order for you know and a lot of this, like the first order form and the first cell sheet are now in the National Archives down at the Smithsonian, which cracks cracks me up but one of my favorite stories about learning what I should be doing or how to do things was my phone rang one day because in this ad we had put my address in Burlington and my personal phone number you know because that's how naive we were and my phone rang and it was this. I answered it. And it was my phone right this is when they were still attached to the wall by the way. And it was this gentleman from the from Georgia I believe in the south and he said y'all looking for reps. And I said, What's a rep. I had no idea what a sales representative was or that that's how the business worked. And he spent an hour and a half on the phone with me explaining to me how the sporting goods industry did business. By the end of it I hired him you know I said okay, you're on. And he and his group worked for us for years for years but people are so willing to help and so really kind it's it constantly proved to be the case. So ask for help. One of my pieces of advice. Yeah, that's that that's a good piece. So, like you said earlier you know some of some of our students here might have, you know, they're developing a patch and they're thinking, maybe I'm not good like you said you didn't necessarily have a great business sense. You know, depending on what they're creating and what their product is finding some where they're weak, an area that might be weak at bring in somebody. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. We didn't realize what we were getting into it was successful right off the bat and we had to run to keep up. And one of the first things we did, which was a real leap of faith was we hired a consultant, but I should back up, though and say you know I had to learn about I was the, the small business administration was one of those entities that was very helpful. And they put and they said you have to write a business plan I said huh. So instead of writing something for my graduate programs. I was sitting down trying to figure out a sales plan and, and we literally call them financial fairy tales, because I was making it all up I had no idea. I had no idea, but in the process I learned a great deal. One of the things I learned was how much I didn't know. And then, so I hired someone who did know you consultant someone who'd been in business where in his own business worked for others. And it's basically like hiring a tutor. Yeah. And were you there, there are things like when you talked about before that applied back then they could apply today as well. You know you'd mentioned things like we talked about imposter syndrome, for example, you know, you. And I think a lot of our students for sure suffer from it they're coming up with an idea and then they're thinking well, you know who am I I don't think I had the skills to move this forward. Well, you know you prove that to be not true and I think that a lot of them. The fact that you didn't know a lot of things yet you overcame it that's inspirational away. Do you have any advice for students in terms of them. You know feeling hesitant or maybe they don't think they're up to the task I mean they're any sort of tried and true things that you learn back then that regardless of advancements of technology and other things, you know would still apply today. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, you talk you mentioned the imposter syndrome. I felt like a total fraud, because I had, I had been a runner. And that's how come I knew about this but my knees went out and I had to stop running. So here I was all of a sudden you know the jog bar queen and in sport the sporting goods industry, and I wasn't even participating anymore. And the fact that I didn't know about business. I felt, I was sure that any minute you know someone was going to confirm your laugh at me or say who are you to do this. And that was my own fear operating. One of them that one of the most important things I can say to anyone looking at taking on this pitch challenge is to run to start a business whether it's a service business or a product. Because they're always going to be obstacles, always. And the first obstacle is your, your, that voice in your head. You know, can be an obstacle. It's the also the voice that's saying, Oh, you know, do this do this but then there's that little thing going, Are you sure you sure didn't so and so say this or what about that. You were never good at that. Look, I flunked arithmetic. What was I doing writing business plans, you know, or adding up anyway. So the, you're always going to have obstacles. So being a creative problem solver try persevering persevering through the obstacle, finding a way around it. And dealing with your own fear, your own insecurity. I mean, I mean really John, do you know anyone that doesn't have a streak of insecurity going through. I haven't met him yet. Yeah. So you just have to recognize that and say okay. This is the next step. What's, I had a little sign over my desk when I first started and it just said, because at that point I was both in school and trying to run this business, and it just said persevere persevere. Yeah, it's a great word. And that's why actually at CFS that's one of the eight, we have a number of words that are sort of used to that we identified as, you know, things that would help people to advance and get just persevering through, you know, which is hard because you get told no 100 times that you make a mistake and then you're thinking I'm going to just, I'm going to bail out I can't do it but some somehow you got to stay in and you had mentioned to me before, having people around you that you trusted and that also supported you I mean that's that's huge and any, any endeavor. Well, and even if you don't have that, you know, even you have to look and find those people but they don't just, you know, they're not automatically there my family had no idea what I was doing or could talk to me about it, you know, and that's where the, not only persevering but being authentic. You know why are you doing this are you doing this because you care about the need, or you care about the people that you'll be serving or, or because it lights you up inside this is something that you can see and so that conviction that authenticity. I mean I know this all sounds like, well I don't know but it is so integral it is so important to succeeding in any endeavor. But of course a business, a business. And also another thing is being curious, being curious, like, if I had not been a curious young woman. The question might not have entered my head of, well how could this change. You know, what, what might make a difference here. Well, I knew nothing about making garments I knew nothing about the garment industry I knew nothing but I was curious. Yeah, that's that's without that yeah and the authenticity piece and the fact that you're passionate about, you know because if you're not if you're not passionate and you're not authentic about it. I mean you could just say, you know you've read studies where it'll say you know, people that just invent something but don't care about it they just want to make money. Sure it's happened where that's been successful but most often it's not because you don't have that passion and or that authenticity and you would and I think you know you talking earlier last time we spoke about. I mean, women and entrepreneurship at that time were close and non existent it's still, it's still a low number unfortunately, but you you broke some barriers and just by even attempting to get especially into the business space. That had to be patrifying. Well, again, the times you know the 1970s when, and especially in in Vermont things were changing radically but women in business were a way we got an SBA loan because we were considered a minority. And someone told me recently I don't know if this is true that women are still considered a minority and that might just be in Vermont SBA or I could be totally wrong but it would be interesting to know that. Yeah, we were breaking a lot of rules and it was again it was a societal time when all the rules were changing and you had to kind of figure out, well if there's no code of conduct or way that things should be, then how do I how do I go forward, how do I figure out what works what doesn't work what I'm comfortable with what I'm not uncomfortable with what I'm not comfortable with. And who's going to support me and who's going to get in my way and it's the answers to those things are not always evident. It was an interesting and challenging time. We have a question the chat box action I definitely want to open it up to anybody that has questions and you know including Brooke Lily or Eric if you want to jump in, because it's such a rare opportunity to talk to Lisa about these things but the question from a student. And could you tell me more about the obstacles that you faced, other than your lack of knowledge of business. So really any and you could get granular, you know if there were specific obstacles or larger ones, you know just anything you face that you had to. How do we figure this out and overcome it. What opposite. Well, everybody's got their stuff, you know. In my case, a one very in my face obstacle was the fact that I have a disability. Visible disability. I have epilepsy. So I didn't have a driver's license. The number one issue facing people with epilepsy, not the number one non medical issue is under employment and unemployment. So I had to, I had all the things I had to deal with to keep myself healthy. And because it wasn't obvious to the general public or to anyone that there was something else going on with me. I talk about I would pass, I would pass as just fine and normal until I was on a trade show floor and went down into a grand mall convulsion. And then it was out. And so there was that. And that was particular to me but, and then there is also just the not being taken seriously. I mean, the assumptions and, and all the, I, you know, it's difficult to talk about now but you learned, you won. You learned to laugh at all the bra and breast jokes and the snickering and just kind of roll with the punches and add a few of my own. We wanted to get a bank loan in Burlington and the male loan officer sat across the desk and said, so what are you two girls with a bra going to ask of me. And it was like two girls with a bra. Okay. So you just have to, you know, a sense of humor is also very important, a sense of because when you're sitting there feeling like a fraud and insecure if humor is was what one of the things I could always fall back on. Yeah. And I answered that question. Well, No, for sure. Absolutely. That's a huge job. So any, yeah, if there's any others that you can think of, I know you also did a lot of work with the absolute epilepsy foundation you're on the board. And that was a passion of yours as well. I mean, you had, you know, we talk about your sometimes you're probably feel like you're defined by the fact that you create the job but you've done so many other things, including that that foundation. I think, you know, being being well rounded and you had your major. I mean, you had an education like you had a lot. You brought a lot to the, to the process. Well, having that background in educational admin actually really helped me hand in sales in sales and market because I'm for several years I was, I had never been in sales but I was a sales manager I was running sales reps all over the country. We were so naive that it never even occurred to us to just open small like let's just sell these in the Northeast to begin with we went national right away and so I was traveling a lot to train all these sales reps who were oh by the way, 99% men. So I was having to talk to these men about how to talk about breast movement and bras and. And so, being having a background in education education was helpful. Yeah, I'm sure. And talk a little bit I eventually when things took off. You had you had some large corporations start to eventually, you know, we're approaching you to buy you out right pretty much. Oh, well, yeah. Well, this was it. We started at the very beginning of what's now referred to in the history books as the fitness. And revolution. Yeah, yeah. And everybody was being active and all these companies were starting at that time I mean the shoe business, Nike and this was just all beginning it was all becoming a big thing. And we actually didn't have to deal with that question of being bought out until later until we had been in business for quite a while. And my phone rang one day and I mean, that's a whole other story. I mean, I, if I, I'm fond of saying, I got my masters in business by by rent starting and running a company. I got my PhD by selling it. That was a real learning experience. Yeah. Yeah. I think I wanted to just mention about some of the obstacles we were facing is that a fact is that most patents are granted to and held by men. I think I've we've talked about this before that the number of patents held by a woman women are is I don't know the actual percentage but it's in the single digits. And once you add them, you know, like, Harry and Lisa Lisa and Harry or something, then it goes up somewhat, but only a bit. So, you know, you got to wonder what the dynamics are behind that. And it, it is changing these days when I was at the, the induction ceremony at the Hall of Fame there were two other women who were inducted other than us and that's a big deal. Yeah, hopefully that continues that way. And I know you have, speaking of patents, at least 10 that I'm aware of, so you, you've eat the odds quite well. Well, the one that I'd like to talk about is the compression compression garment for breast cancer survivors because again that really did was a game changer there. And breast cancer survivors have swelling that has to be dealt with and for other parts of the body there were compression garments but there was nothing for chest and breast. So, that's the other patent that I'm very proud of that I couldn't have been done without Dr Leslie Bell, whose idea it was and said help me do this Lisa. So, wow, yeah. Yeah, and then let me go we got two other questions kind of a follow up despite the obstacle obstacles you faced. What were some of the positive positives about starting and growing a business in Vermont. Oh, well, I think the biggest thing was, it was exciting. Excuse me. It was exciting and, and the amount of personal growth that being in this business afforded us I'm trying to turn off my phone here. Sorry. I met so many people I I experienced. I've been all over this country I've experienced other people's lives their concerns there. I mean I got to see the world I went we. I got to see the world. And it was a thrilling thrilling and it made me really grow as a person and that's the other thing I say about starting your own business that your business will only grow if you can grow with it. You can look at your weaknesses and look at your strengths and be honest with yourself about it and and take the steps necessary and you know that is not always easy. And we talk about the imposter syndrome but you know then there's are you an introvert are you an extrovert are you do you have a sense of humor do you not have a sense of humor. You know are you comfortable in groups or all you know, all of that. And when you say that I think depending on the product or you know what you're pitching in some ways it might need to match your personality a little bit. Now, you know it's a little different with a number of products you could launch online you're kind of you don't have to worry about being an extrovert quite as much but that's a that's a really good point though because you probably should take these things into consideration based on your own personality and sort of attributes. There's a willingness to, to grow and to change like if, if, if you are, and how, how to deal with that growth I mean, one of the reasons I truly believe we were successful as my business partner Hinda and I were very different people, we were very different people, but we were both committed to personal growth. So what you know we, we would be at loggerheads about something and be able to kind of take it apart and say okay. You know, she just wanted to go forward I wanted to think of seven different ways to go forward you know. Yeah. Was that that could be I mean, that sounds in some ways helpful because you're, you know you're bouncing things off each other and you're not both like oh yeah let's do this there's a little bit, a little bit of friction and maybe that's good but also I'm sure was probably challenging in other ways. It was very, it was very challenging but, but we both wanted the best for, you know we call it our baby, you know, the child, the business, and, and that's what kept us, not only together, but the business kept being successful. We were incredibly successful and consistently, consistently. Yeah that's impressive because like you said things change and if you can't roll with it. It's not going to stay consistent it's going to be over, you know before before you know it. Another question for you here in the chat box so says hey Lisa your story is inspiring. I'd love to meet you sometime I'm 17 currently running a small business at MHS. What what what has been your best mantra for dealing with the fear when pursuing a challenge. I breathe deeply. I learned to meditate along the way. And, and to recognize, you know I'm impressed with this question because to recognize the fear is the beginning of dealing with it to say okay, there it is. Think about why it is or how it is and then you set it aside. Persevere. Yeah that's great advice it's almost. That's really interesting because it's almost like counterintuitive and maybe it depends on the person but you think, oh here's an obstacle you know you think plow through and just get gritty and not that you don't need those things but you're saying take a breath. Identify and sort of confront the fear, you know, and then and then move forward still persevering, but that that's that's really good advice. And then that's part of the of what I was saying earlier about being willing to engage with an experienced personal growth. Why am I afraid of that. You know what, what is it about the situation that's making me anxious. And, you know, it doesn't mean you're going to solve it in the moment but at least being aware, rather than, you know, so there have been studies about this about how much of these unidentified fears and anxieties that have started sometimes in childhood, you know, are dictating our behaviors and our thoughts and our preferences. And when it's unconscious like that. How can you change. How can you say oh yes I accept that okay I like that, or oh no I don't want to be dealing with that or. Oh, you know that was my mother's idea that's not what I, you know what I prefer. You know, all the all those being conscious, being conscious. And did you learn that was that something they take did you learn that later early on did you kind of develop how did you kind of like realize how to deal with things like that was it later. No, it started very early and this is. It started very early, because when you have epilepsy you are living every day under threat. Now I didn't think about it exactly that way when I was a child. But it was the case, you know, I could go down at any moment I could have a seizure at any moment. So that there is a choice there about are you going to live your life or are you going to. Now, now let me preface all this by saying I am very, very lucky. I am so blessed because my seizure disorder is mostly controlled. And I'm not I mean I met and spoken with people who are having seizures every single day, every single day. And I didn't. I had medication that made that not happen so. So this is what I call a shadow teacher when you're able. When some obstacle or circumstances or threat makes you have to think about what you're doing how you're doing it and why you're doing it. So, I really, I think that it's very. So I had to think about things early on, and I chose to I mean I chose to think about them and it was because I didn't want to, I didn't want to be interfered with I mean basically it was, I wanted to go to the beach I went to go swimming at the beach so I figured out how to make that happen without having, you know, somebody always with me or something I could. I learned how to ride a bike, which was not also not you weren't supposed to ride a bike. I was a kid, but. So I, I think that obstacles are often great teachers. Yeah, that's really interesting. You had plenty of them early on and developed mech coping mechanisms to deal with which pay dividends later in your business and the rest of your life that that's, that's that's pretty. Everybody has something, you know, they're, it's just in my case again I was lucky it was kind of obvious to me anyway. And to those are anyway, but everybody's got something whether it's everybody's got something. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I have a couple of other questions here one I was speaking with somebody prior to this and they were, they wanted me to ask so they have problems with deadlines. They are procrastinators. I, any advice you have in turn you know you're you, you've got this pitch idea you want to launch your business and all of a sudden you're like, you got some procrastination you got to meet some deadlines, any advice on how to meet those. Yes, because actually that's one of my things to I am a terrible procrastinator. And someone said to me once one step at a time, just move it forward a little bit, just move it forward. And that I thought okay I don't have to finish it I don't have to, I just have to take the next step. And that was helpful and and also another thing that I, I don't know if this is true for every procrastinator but for this procrastinator, I realized that what was behind it was perfectionism, wanting to do it exactly right or just so or, and that was stopping me. That was a stop. I said I went okay it might not be perfect, but not this time you know but at least it will be moving closer to the goal closer to the and closer to creating whatever I want to create. Yeah that's that's good that's. And this question to sort of related a little bit. You know because you, you're working so hard and you're trying to like move things forward and this this question is how do you work to separate yourself from your business. Well that would depend on why you want to separate yourself from your business. I mean that's a very, that's a very deep and broad question. Yeah, yeah I don't if they want to follow up in the chat box I mean I'm assuming it's sort of you know, how do you separate your so you know you've got your working constantly you know how do you sort of take separate it and not get a break but sort of. Well you know again what this gets back to is what we've talked about earlier which is, why are you doing this. If it's a path at the heart. If it's something you're passionate about it's part of you. So, when you need a break. You know, being aware of yourself enough to know okay I need a break and I think about something else. But if it's something that you care about it is part of you, and you would need to be clear about why you're separating yourself from your business. And you know that scares me hearing me say it like that because I sure as heck didn't think I was my business and the business was me. As a matter of fact I fought against that a lot in the early years. Well no actually in the later on more than just the jog bra lady I used to say. It's such an interesting quite I wonder why the questions being asked. Here we go get example, getting tired of phrases such as. Oh you're the sports bra lady when you had many other interests and skills. I'm sorry where's the question. Well just they're following up saying like you know, everybody's saying oh you're just the jog bra lady that you work all the time that's all you do. Despite having other you know these other skills and interests, which would be different you know that's where you would step away. I get it well and the truth is in the early years I hardly ever stepped away. I feel like you worked all the time. You kind of had to. But I loved to go out in the garden, so I would go out and garden, or when I was still able to run that was the best and the biggest you know I would just go out for a run. And that distressed and separated me a lot. And then later it was gardening and. But it wasn't until quite a few years in when there is. And let me say the business was always changing because it was growing it's, it is literally like having a child you know what worked for when they were to is not working when they're six, you know. But I think that, again, because I was passionate about it. And as young, being young is a good thing. Yeah, a lot of energy. Definitely helps. This one, it's broad but it's interesting. How would you define your, your personal values. Oh, um, I would I define. I would, how do I define, I like to think that I'm an ethical person. I believe very much in the do unto others as you would have them do unto you that old adage. And I mean it when I talk about a path with the heart. And now what I really love is science is catching up with that and there's a lot of talk about how breathing helps de stress and what because of what the heart does and so that that sort of new agey woo woo phrase path with the heart turns out to be very critical. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, for sure. And there was one you one other one you said you addressed a little bit earlier but were there any strong partnerships that were key to growing your business. You know, maybe other than that you may you mentioned. Yes, actually. So of course, they are the obvious my business partner Hinda and the consultant I mentioned, but are I hired a sales and more an advertising firm, and the woman who owned that firm became such an important supporter and educator she taught me a lot about marketing and there was, she was very important to our success and my personal growth. And then we you know earlier I talked about how most of the sales reps were men well that began to change of course because of the times and there were two sales representatives. We that worked with us for years that literally contributed so much to the success of our business, and one became our VP of came in house and became our VP of sales and marketing Jan Kimbrel. And these people who got it, they, you know, Jan, Noreen, Judy, they, they really got it and they supported it and they represented it out in the world. I'm so grateful to those women. Yeah, that sounds pretty key because I mean if someone's not understanding or getting your product they're going to take in some direction you're not, you know, it's not going to work and Yeah, I want to talk about the Noreen and Jan because they taught me so much they understood the sales and they understood how buyers thought they they understood this whole world that was foreign to me, and they, they taught me and I mean, they, that business would not be what it was without their energies their passion and their commitment. Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I do want to see Lily I don't know if you had any questions as well I know you, Lily was president of the entrepreneurship club there and you know, as I'm sure are seeing many, many a pitch, and some that worked and some didn't, but and she's going to wrap up a little I think we're about 10 minutes out but I have, I'll try and cut it short because I got to, I could talk to you all day and I got about 10 other questions of my own but I do you do you work with any younger entrepreneurs today at least at all or do you do you give advice or do you kind of interact with any that you know people or anything who knows AI you know whatever some something newer today that people are working on. Yes, of course I have in in the past but you know things have changed a lot. So once you talk about those universal things that that don't change that haven't changed have to do with people place a product service passion integrity. So I don't make a living being a entrepreneurial consultant by any stretch of the imagination but I'm always happy to answer people's questions. That's good. Yeah, I don't. You say that now I'm going to have students we're going to get students your email address. No, if they have any questions we're going to, you know, we'll keep them to a minimum couple more in the chat though. Really, for some of some from for some of your other patent items. How do you conduct market research to ensure that there was a market besides the word of mouth boom that came with the sports bra. You know that's a really good question and it, it provokes a funny story, which is, if I had done market research. Before starting the jog bra sports bra business, I would not have started the business, because the market research I would have done would have been around bras and bra sales and all that. And bra sales had literally been pardoned upon flat for decades, and all the bra manufacturers were just stealing market share back and forth from each other, but the category was not growing at all. You know, not having foresight, I would not have understood or known that really we're talking about sporting goods, although that was a marketing decision I made early on that this that this product was not lingerie it was athletic equipment. Not that market was booming like crazy. So, so I'm all for market research. However, be careful, because if you're really doing something new and a little bit disruptive and improved the current market is only going to give you limited information. It will give you information is probably good to have but be analytical about it. Does that answer the question. It's kind of fascinating because, you know, had you done market research you would have got discouraged and probably not done it. Yeah, not, but your point is well taken because you're not saying don't do it but you're saying take it with, you know, a grain of salt and sort of use it as information to move forward, not discourage. Well, the best case scenario had I done market research, maybe I would have made that is what would have made me say okay this isn't lingerie. I'm not going to play in that market this is athletic equipment. But I don't know that I would have done that. And luckily my gut, my intuition was what told me to do that. So, you know, there are no great definitive answers. Yeah. But, you know, your gut and you know you got the research then you got your God and you kind of, you know, look between the two and decide. Excuse me, the reason why someone's interested in going into an area there's got to be something in there there's got to be some guts some instinct. And that's, that's the thing to pay the most attention to there are a lot of naysayers out both in the, in the information and, and, you know, either your older brother or that person you know along with there are a lot of naysayers, and it's always interesting to listen with your Teflon suit on, you know, I mean like, okay listen to them but trust your gut. Yeah, that's great advice. And one last one here we got, what do you think are some great resources to learn about business models and entrepreneurship and in general books, shows, anything, even, you know that you back in the day that you read or something current, or your own book for that how about your own book. That's a good resource. Unleash, read unleash the girls. No, actually I'm not kidding. I am not kidding. I learned so much. And also, the other thing is we are living in a time now where things are changing so rapidly that to go back to what to the text, the business school textbooks or such, you know, it doesn't. It's not good information to have, but you have to be aware and look at the world and feel the energy and make your own decision. And hopefully it will be for the greater good. That's, that sounds like a perfect place to leave it. I can't tell you how much we appreciate it and we'll, you know, this recorded this and we'll share it with a lot of students so if we have follow up questions that love to send them your way and kind of keep this conversation going and as students put in their pitch and the challenge moves along. We could love to run a few of them by you see what you think of them and. I would love that I would like, I think I said to you once if I hadn't done this I probably would have been a teacher. I would have been teaching so this is fascinating and I'm so excited they're young people out there. Gonna do their own thing change the world. Yeah, for sure. Thank you so much. We really appreciate it. And we will, we'll do this again I'm sure and we have one I think one final slide here before we. And yeah, then our next third edition of next month's entrepreneurial exchange how to build successful business model so we can use things from the Lisa share with us today. Eric months in one of my favorite professors when I was at UVM for a long time and he's done a lot of really good research but also helped a lot of students. Along the way so he's a Grossman School of Business associate professor and Steven Grossman and Dow chair in entrepreneurship that'll be fascinating and I think it's a good way to. He'll bring some stuff to the table that we can couple with what what Lisa shared with us with us today so thank thank you again Lisa and and everybody for joining in and we'll do it again next month with Eric. Thank you john thanks so much. Take care.