 Welcome back to another episode of the Traveling Podcast. We're joined today by Mr. Nathan Daly, round of applause, virtual round of applause. Thank you, thank you. Yes sir, yes sir. So you are a returning guest. Yes. Last time we talked about a myriad of things. Right. We meant to talk about police reform, but today we're actually going to try to do that. But let's start with your story, man. How did you find your way into law enforcement? And how did you find your way out of law enforcement? All right. Again, thank you for having me back. So how did I get started, man? I used to work at the hospital and worked in the ER and was a patient finance tech, I guess you can call it, right? So I handled the money and stuff. So often police will come into the ER all the time with victims, with suspects, and I would take my time and develop like a relationship with the officers, learning their stories. And I just got really taken by a lot of things that they did, you know, saving lives and protecting lives and things like that. So a lot of the people in the officers in the department at the time really got to know me. And so one day, one of the canine officers was like, hey man, we're looking to recruit some people. Man, you have a great personality, people really love you. You're very helpful and things like that. I think you have the character and the personality that would make a good officer. And at the time I was like, nah, I never had any interests in being a police officer. I actually was thinking about going into radiology. Like I like science and things like that. So policing wasn't even on my radar. And I wanted to get into like more of a science thing, because I just really love science. And so I decided to kind of take a chance at it. I said, let me sign up and see what's up. I'm not with the boot camp military stuff that's like not my thing. I just don't think I'm built that way. And it's true, I'm not. Because when I went into the police academy, I applied for DeKalb County at the time, went into the police academy, had a horrible experience in the first couple months. And then after a while, I started developing a really good relationship with my academy, my academy class. We ended up becoming like brothers and sisters. And fast forward, invested a lot of years, obviously worked in different areas and aspects of the police department. And then fast forward, of course, 13 years later, after kind of going through all the motions, I found myself as a senior officer doing a conducting a traffic stop for something very kind of routine, very simple, driving with the cell phone, something real simple, knock out a little ticket, turned out to be a lot more going on, a lot of drugs, guns, and things of that nature. But either ways, I tried to make an arrest of a suspect. I got caught inside the vehicle reaching in to grab the suspect and he drove off down the interstate. Because I couldn't free myself in time, I actually had to, I felt my legs kind of being dragged by the car. So then my instinctive response was to just kind of jump up and hold on. So I jumped up and held on as we're going down the ramp of the interstate. The suspect started ramming me against oncoming cars as he was passing by, intentionally. And then eventually I end up, he ended up hitting me up against a white van. I got thrown off the vehicle and almost got ran over. I was unconscious and I don't know for how long. Eventually people had got out of their vehicles to stop traffic, things like that, because they saw me hanging. I mean, they saw me lying on the road. So that accident was the accident that ended or put a pause, I would say, ended my police career. I was actually had an application out for the FBI. I was two years into the process. So my goal was to go into the feds and work. And so that also interfered with that as well. So I had to get multiple surgeries and had to do physical therapy, had to learn how to walk again and things like that. I had so much internal damage that I didn't know how that recovery process was going to look. So of course, dealing with that, you're looking at your entire future kind of change. You're not knowing what tomorrow looks like, what the recovery looks like. And then as I started to feel a little bit about myself, better about myself going through the healing process, getting out of the depression, I had a lot of support from the citizens and the community. People were sending me cards, cookies and gifts and things that in that nature, you know, and so that helped a lot with the recovery. But then COVID happened and then George Floyd happened. And so I spent that time trying to recover also witnessing the country kind of in my opinion was burning down, right? And it was a lot of riots as you remember and things like that. And that kind of led me to where I'm doing now, being on YouTube, kind of providing some insight into the profession. Because at that moment, I felt that I had something that I could give, I had something that I could provide insight. I wanted to solve the problem. You know, I felt confident that I understood the problem well enough based on my experience that I could provide some information to help turn this thing around and really have a new criminal justice system or at least a better criminal justice system, better policing and a better relationship with the citizens and the police, especially as it relates to the black community. And so that kind of led me into that direction. So talk about the Blue Phoenix Initiative. What inspired it? And like, what is your ultimate goal? So that's a great question. So during my recovery, I had a lady sent me a gift. And the gift I received, I was at my lowest, absolute lowest point in my recovery period. I was suffering from depression. And I was to help with the depression at the time, I would open one card at a time. I had hundreds of cards. So each day I said I'll open one card to kind of give me some inspiration to kind of move forward. So so one day I people won't recognize it, but my face was cut up really bad. It was swollen really bad. Yeah, the melanin bounced back. Yeah, but I was spotty man. My face was, you know, was white had white blotches in my face from where I was injured and things like that. The swelling was bad. I almost lost my left eye from the accident. And so I still had the stitches in and stitches in my head. My lip above my mouth around my eye and things like that. And then also I had, I still had the road rash burns and things. So one day, one day I wanted a burger. There's this place near where I lived at. It was like the best. They had the best burgers, whatever. So went over there to get something to eat. I still had the bandages around my face. And I'm inside there ordering my food. And this kid comes up to me and he says, oh, I just want to say thank you for your service. You're a hero. You're a superhero. And I'm looking at him like, I said, I'm looking around like, who was he talking to, right? Mind you, I looked like a bum, right? I had this big cast on my foot from my leg. And then I had just, I just, I just looked like a bum. And there was no way to distinguish who I actually was. You know, I had my arm in a sling and everything like that. And so I looked around and I'm like, huh? Excuse me? He said, yeah. He said, you're a superhero. Thank you for your service. And I looked up and I saw the kid's mother. And she was like, hey, hey, I just, we just wanted to say thank you so much. We saw what happened. She was like, we were actually on the interstate. You know, when, when the accident happened, we remember who you are, you know, officer daily. And I was like, huh, I said, okay, I said, thank you. You know, I really appreciate that. And I told him, I looked down at the kid and I was like, well, why do you, why did you call me a superhero? I'm no superhero. I said superheroes don't look like this. You know, and I was in a very low state. You know, like I didn't, I didn't feel good. You know, I didn't feel good. I wasn't confident. My face was tattered, you know. And so when he was saying that I couldn't see what this kid was seeing, you know, and I asked him, I said, um, wow, what do you mean superhero? I said, superheroes don't look like this. And he said to me, he's like, well, you know, only a superhero can get hit by a car and get up and walk again. You know, and when he said that to me, it really struck something on the inside, you know, and I was like, damn, what does he see inside me that I forgot? Right. And, and, and regardless of how I looked or how I felt, he saw something great. And it was weird. I got that lesson from a child, right? A young man. And so I said, hey, you know what? I appreciate that. I was like, thank you. You know, I got my food, he got his food, he walked away and I went back home, went home and cried. You know, I was so, I was so torn inside. I didn't really understand why I was so low, why I felt so bad. I said, but this kid saw something in me. You know, he said I was a superhero. So, you know, I took some time out, started to pray and ask God to kind of give me some strength to get me out of this depression that I was in. I had a box that I haven't opened and the box was sitting across from me. I was like, man, let me, let me just open all these cars. I'm gonna open all the boxes today. You know, I'm not gonna like use this as like a crutch anymore. And I went to the box, opened the box, and there was a knitted blanket, handmade, like knitted blanket, like crochet. And it had the blue line on it, the police blue line and the black on the opposite ends. And there was a letter in there. It was a lady, she has a nonprofit. And then the letter wrote, you know, this is a, this blanket, let this be a covering for you to make you feel safe, to give you comfort. And as I was reading her letter, man, I just broke down in tears. And I put the blanket over me and I was just allowed it to cover me and kind of give me that strength. I felt the love in that. And that, in that moment, I told myself I want to do something for officers. I want to be able to do and create this same type of experience. You know, I know what it feels like to be in this void, to be empty, to be scared, to feel lonely, to feel regardless of having this, this second chance at life, not feeling like it was worth it, you know. And I know what it feels like to suffer in silence. And despite the family and everything, there's still, you still have to get yourself out of that depression, you know. And so I said, I want to do that. I want to be a voice for officers. I want to be a voice to fix this divide, you know. And even the reason that got into this, the reason why I was injured in the first place was because I came in contact with someone who was afraid of the police, you know. And through his fear, he acted in a way, right. I told myself, I want to bridge that gap. I want to tell the citizens and even the black community that like we can have a relationship but we don't have to fight each other like that. We don't have to risk our lives against each other. Like it's not a war between us. And though I might do something wrong or you might do something wrong, we don't have to try to kill each other over it. You know, there's so much that we can just come to the table and have a discussion about. So my mind creating the Blue Phoenix Initiative was to repair that relationship, take the time to have tough conversations, bring both sides to the table, and then also to show officers that they are loved and that they are appreciated. Just like someone took the time to show me that I was loved and I was appreciated. And that one act of kindness from that lady saved me from, you know, depression, an extended depression. And I think, you know, she's an amazing woman. You know, I reached out to her. She actually, we partner together on my nonprofit. So I always shout her out. She, her nonprofit is called Covering the Blue. And any time an officer is injured, she always sends out a blanket out to them the same way she sent to me. And I just remember just how powerful that was. And so the theme of the Blue Phoenix Initiative is to triumph over tragedy. And that's what I feel like I did. I called the Blue Phoenix because I felt like in that moment I had died out there on the interstate and I kind of rose from the ashes, you know. And so I wanted an organization that reflected that growth, rebuilding, and then coming out of something that may have looked impossible. And that is, that's the story. And that's what it's about. It's about showing love and empowering people to turn tragedy into triumph. What's your take on the divide that you're describing? What do you think is at the core of our community's distrust of the police, our community's fear of the police, anger towards the police? How would you describe it after being on both sides? I would describe it, there's a couple components. There's, I think about, I would say maybe three or four. One is the historical setting, right? Law enforcement always represented a strong arm of white supremacy used to oppress black people. That hasn't been 100% addressed and corrected. I also believe that we have the behaviors of officers over the time, history, and even today, that don't warrant a trusting relationship. I believe the trust in a lot of communities has been broken and damaged. Some people feel that they can't be repaired. So that's an ongoing battle as well. I feel like we're always trying to catch up to a place. Third, I think media, I think the news media, I think the entertainment industry, I think the music industry, I think they also help add fuel to the fire. They're not putting out anything positive about police. What ends up happening, you start, you continue to add more unhealthy discourse to the conversation. This now, as a young man, young woman, you start hearing in the music about how the police can't be trusted. Kids are experiencing encounters with the police where their parents are taken away, and they're not old enough to understand maybe why. You have officers that maybe it might be one or two or three, but they abuse their power consistently in a community. Because of that, police, we all share the same image. Just kind of like how we talk about being profiled or stereotyped for being black. Well, police are also stereotyped for being blue. Regardless, the first thing people see is that blue uniform. They see that authority. They don't see the individual in that uniform. They see the person who last disrespected them or violated their rights, and now they label all officers under that same umbrella. There is a concerted effort that's needed, and I think the onus is on the police profession to fix and rebuild the relationship. Though we do need help and assistance from the citizens and even the black community in general, I think it's on the police, it's on us to take that first leap forward and show that we can be trusted. And I think one of the biggest problems is, of course, that racial component. We know that racism does exist in policing. We also know that there's white supremacy agents in policing that operate in that uniform or just in the criminal justice system period. And though that doesn't make up everybody, but we know that there are people who are operating undercover, I guess you would say. Well, that doesn't make black people feel comfortable at all. And so the question is, okay, well, how do we fix that? If we know that granted out of 10, maybe it might be one. Well, that's one too many. How do you address that? You have the excessive force. How do you address that? And then you have the lack of accountability. How do you address that? So a lot of the biggest issues or responsibility falls on the profession to fix. The citizen, they have one job, which is really follow the law. But the officers, the police officers in the profession, they have a lot of responsibility. They have more than the citizens. Their task would making sure they enforce the law properly, justly. Their task would making sure that they're professional. Their task would making sure that they're not bias, what they're not racially profiling. Their task to make sure that when officers make mistakes, they're held accountable. Their task would making sure they have integrity and honor and that they are treating everybody with an equitable level of treatment, whether you're black, white, Asian, or Hispanic. So there's a multitude of things that the profession is responsible for, that they are not doing the best job that the citizens feel like they're doing. And because of that, I think it's on us to fix. And again, the citizens that simply need to just follow the law. And if they don't, it still doesn't mean that they should be mistreated or abused because they are in violation of the law. So that's where I see the issue. And lastly, I would say professionalism. I think that's probably one of the biggest ones. I think one of the one of the critiques of law enforcement is it's not spread out equitably. And what I mean by that is some communities are overpoliced, other communities underpoliced. We're searching for crack, but we're not searching for cocaine, right? How would you make that make sense for somebody who hasn't been behind the blue wall as to why the frat houses aren't being rated as much as the houses in the hood? Well, I would say two things. I think sometimes there's people underestimate the power of behavior. People underestimate the power of image. And I think people are very observation based. And so what I mean by that is if you're looking at, you're observing a pattern, you're observing behavior patterns, you're observing how people operate. And you're also operating off of your own biases, right? This is where the racial profiling comes from. It's either a trained observation over a course period of time or it's a conditioned response, right? You've been conditioned to believe something a certain way or you've seen a pattern so much that we call it like a pattern recognition. Like I've seen this thing sound like a duck so many times that now every time I see it, I think it's a duck. Even though it might not be a duck, it might be a quail, right? But the reality is there is something true to that that can't be ignored as being a problem. Now the issue is people say, well, you have white communities that are not over police. That's not technically true. What they're talking about is poverty. When you look at poverty and look at certain communities based on poverty, those communities are police and they're also police based off of demand. What a lot of people don't realize is that within our community, within the black community, some of the high crime areas, citizens are calling and asking for us to be there. They're demanding it. That's part of the profession that people on the outside don't see. When I come into work, we'll get stacks of papers and say, hey, in your territory, this area has been having a lot of car breakings. This area has been having a lot of drug complaints, people loitering over here and doing this and doing that. These things are called in by citizens. It's called in by businesses. What happens now, I take that paper. I'm responsible for checking these different locations throughout the night. At the same time, we also know what areas are our problem areas. So when people say, okay, well, there's some black communities that are over police, yes, that could be true. It's overpoliced, but a lot of times it's by the recommendation of the people who live in that community. People forget that you have crime, you have criminals in a community, and they represent a small, very small percentage. Everybody else is there wanting to go about their day in day without any issues. At the same time, that doesn't excuse that you do have officers who will saturate certain areas because they believe that they'll have a higher, there's a higher probability that they can get drugs, get guns, find somebody that's wanted. And a lot of times those are areas that are black. But what a lot of us don't see is that these same type of tactics also happen within low income and poor white communities as well. We don't hear about it. We don't see it from the black community's perspective because we're not white. And so I think that one of the challenges is, for me, is to always try to make sure we get a very well rounded view of what policing looks like and not to think that the black community is getting such a bad end of the stick in reference to poor policing tactics. People always say, well, you don't see white officers doing that, going into a community and just shooting the kid or doing... I said, yeah, it does happen. And the media might not show it to you. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And a lot of our perception of law enforcement as it relates to how we're being treated comes from the media. So the media is only showing you bad outcomes with white officers on a black citizen. Then you're going to assume or you're going to speculate that this is how we're being treated by white police. But they never show you when a black officer actually shoots a black citizen. That's not something that's pushed through the media. And so it makes you believe that it doesn't happen. They don't show you when a black officer shoots a white citizen. So there's that also, that idea that it doesn't happen. And I think that creates a sense of deception almost on the media's part. Because they truly believe... That creates a deception on the media's part. And what ends up happening is people start to believe that that is how it works. And that's not accurate. But it's not to take away. Because I know when I say this, there's nuance to it. So it's not to say that black people are not having negative outcomes or they're not being abused by law enforcement. It's not saying that. What it is saying is that white people are also being abused as well. That the policing problem in this country isn't unique just to us. The policing problem is an American problem. And the moment we understand that we fight it together, we fight the problem together, we get more done together. And so I think where there, sometimes where there is a, I guess we say the misconception comes from the idea that just because I'm black, I'm being treated a certain way. And sometimes it's easy to confuse an officer that's unprofessional with an officer that is racist. And I think that just comes from how we kind of define scenarios and situations. Truth be told, though, at the end of the day, there are racist police officers. There are officers that don't care where you came from. There are officers that don't care about 400 years ago. There are officers that are racially insensitive. There are officers that are extremely biased. There are officers with ego problems, with God complexes. This is true. And they're operating on the same way they operate in our community. They're also operating in other communities as well. The question is, how do you get rid of them, right? Like, I think that's the real issue. And again, it's not to take away or dismiss the racial component because it exists. I think sometimes we give it more power than it actually is. And sometimes us as a community, we can confuse unprofessional police officer with an officer that's racist, something because of the dialogue or the behavior. And it's like, hold on. I've seen them talk to a white person the same way. So what makes it different, the way it makes us feel? I noticed that when we are disrespected or insulted, or when we think a white person is unprofessional, we're quick within our community to call them a racist. And so sometimes, I think we can kind of get a little carried away with it. How would you make the distinction? I think it's difficult to be quite honest. It's difficult because you would have to, racism can show itself in a lot of different ways. But the reason why I can say with confidence that not every situation is racist because I can look at an officer and see that consistent pattern no matter who they talk to, no matter who they are encountering or no matter who they arrest. So when I started analyzing my, man, this guy is just an asshole. Like, it doesn't matter who you are, right? He's just, that's how he talks to the old lady the same way he talked to this young black kid. The reality is we don't need officers like that in the profession. So one of the things I always talk to people about is I start describing like the dynamics of policing. And I look at it like this. I have witnessed officers disrespect disrespect an old lady, an old white man, a black man, a black team. I've seen them treat them all the same way. The reality is those type of people don't need to be in the profession. And again, and it's not excusing and suggesting that there aren't racist officers. I'm not saying that because there are, right? But if you sit there and you focus so much on race about everything, then you miss all the other variables that make up a bad officer and you don't address it. So you're so focused on trying to find the racist cop that you miss the cop that has an ego problem. Miss the cop that has a power issue. You miss the cop that is there to use excessive force on citizens just as you miss all these other variables that are needed to clean out the profession. A racist cop isn't the only problem. And I would even argue it's not necessarily the biggest problem. And it's hard to a lot of people want to say, okay, this situation is racist. So there's a problem or a dynamic here that racism is the component. And you ask, okay, well, how do you know the difference? It is hard to tell sometimes if you're in the wrong, right? So if I'm a citizen or a black citizen and I committed a crime, then you have an officer who's white who comes into the mix. And that officer is rude or he's disrespectful. He's a little more rough with you. We automatically go to the place of, oh, well, this has to be he has to be a racist cop. Well, you lose the argument, right? When you're already in the wrong, you've committed a crime, and this officer is obligated to address you. You might not like the way the officer addressed you. You might not agree with how he did it. But him doing that doesn't technically make him a racist could make him unprofessional. It can make him insensitive. He could say, you know, unless he says something, obviously that's a verbal race, like a racial statement, a racist statement. That's different. But whether he does or doesn't make a racist statement is not even a way to indicate whether that is racist either. Because again, when you're talking about a racist person, dealing with what's in their heart, what's in their mind. And if they don't show anything, you not liking how you're treated is not going to be a strong enough argument. You need more in my personal opinion. So I think the safest, the best way to remove that element is to take out and punish those who are unprofessional. Because regardless at the end of the day, as an officer, whether you, you don't like me because my color or my skin or or whatever it is or my ethnicity or my religious, whatever the back issue is that you have with me. The punishment of abusing or disrespecting or insulting or being unprofessional will force you to respect me regardless how you feel. And I think that as long as we hold officers accountable when they're unprofessional, when they break the law, when they use excessive force, then whatever you are, whatever you think you are, whether I believe it to be a true or not, it doesn't matter because I can wipe you out of the profession regardless simply because of your behavior. And I think that's my argument. A lot of times when I have these conversations is focus on the behavior. Don't focus on the skin color. Because if you focus on the skin color, there's a good chance you might be wrong. And just because an officer is white, they said something you didn't like doesn't make them a racist. What is the, I guess, police position or the police philosophy on how criminals are created? I believe I think everybody's different on what they think how criminals are created. One of the most consistent consensus, I think, is the home parenting. That's the most repeated statement. The parents, a lot of the kids do this. If you raise your kid better, there's a saying we say, if you don't raise them, we'll cage them. And so a lot of officers, every officer that I remember speaking to about just criminality, they always talk about the home. They always say the home is the problem. And so I would agree with that. I think a lot of officers are very surface level. They don't get into the minutiae of everything. As far as like, okay, well, you have a lack of resources or you have poverty. They do say discipline as well. Because we'll deal with juveniles, as you can imagine, underage kids, roaming the streets after midnight. They're like, what are the parents doing? You have no control of your kids. So I think we look at it from a parenting standpoint. I don't think we take it any further than that. Yeah, we don't. And at the same time, we don't have any control over it. A lot of people don't realize that law enforcement here, we're a cleaning agent. We're not a curing agent. Our job isn't to, we show up after the fact. We're reactive. We're not necessarily proactive. And so we don't necessarily always prevent crimes. We're there to clean up mess. One of the things that I've heard that's actually a good argument, they say that police officers are tasked with five different jobs, right? Just like firefighters have to get cats out of the tree. Police officers have to show up if somebody's having a mental breakdown. Correct. What are some resources that should be made available to offload some responsibility from police officers and stop certain situations that could be handled through a psychiatry or psychology. And it's handled by some police officer with an ego problem, whatever the case may be, and he goes to his pistol. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So listen, I think there's a lot of jobs that we do in this profession that we don't want to do. And any officer would tell you that. A lot of officers really just want to do with violent criminals, right? Like we want to hunt down criminals. Like it's clear who the bad guy is. Yeah, yeah, point him out. Yeah, what happens is we are dealing with a plethora of issues that we're not trained to do. We might go, we might get coached. I always say we're coached to do this. We're not trained. You know, training is a very strong word when you say training. Coaching is easy. Hey, do better next time. Hey, that's how you do that, right? It's a very brief overview. And some of the situations we're dealing with are so dynamic that you have to be trained properly on it. We're talking policing itself should be like a three-year training profession to where you come out and you're skilled. You're skilled at the job. There needs to be social programs, right, where they handle, I would say 90% of the the cause and situations that police are dispatched to, we shouldn't be dispatched to 90%. So if you're talking about 90% of the 911 calls police shouldn't really be dealing with, then you're like, well, damn, then who should be dealing with them? Right. You know, the reality is this, a lot of things are offloaded on the police department. We are, we are society's dumping ground for problems, social issues, mental health issues, domestic, relationship, family, children, father figure, mother figure, big brother, big sister. Like we are here to replace bad homes, bad parenting, correct? Like that we're not, a lot of us aren't built designed for that. Majority didn't sign up for that. You need programs in place. The problem is this is, and I notice, I recognize this after dealing with de-facts, department of family, children, services. I know every state calls it different, but even their workers don't get paid enough. They don't get paid enough. They don't like dealing with a lot of the issues that they deal with. Their heart's not in it. They are exhausted from the job. The job is draining, it's stressful. They get off at a certain time, right? Police, we're 24 hours non-stop. So instead of de-facts handling, who do they call it, call the police, right? Instead of other social programs handling these family issues, domestic issues, they call the police. Mental health, they call the police. We're not trained. We're absolutely, we're not even trained to do the job we're supposed to do well enough. So can you imagine, our job, carry guns, shoot bad guys, some of us can't even do that properly. Some of us can't even take a punch in the face without pulling the gun out. So now you want me to come over here and deal with this family's domestic issue? So my primary function, I'm not even good at. So now you have me doing all these sub-functions? I can't even do my primary job. I don't even know the law good enough. That's my primary job is the law. And I can't even, and I'm violating people's law rights every day. And so now you want me to juggle these kids out here in this? So it's too much. So I was talking to a friend of mine about it and I said, you know, what should happen is there should be a, you know, these cities, these counties, they need to develop a unit where their responsibility is to handle the social issues, take that burden off the law enforcer. And what will end up happening is you will free up the officer's time. You'll reduce the burnout that officers get. Officers will respond to violent situations because that's really what we need to be responding to. Serious threats, threats and acts of violence and of course robberies. And I would say respond to only the seven deadly sins. I think that's what law enforcement should be for, respond to the seven deadly sins. That would free up their time to train more consistently. It'll free up their time of rest and break to reduce the burnout within the police department. And then what will happen is all those other calls of service are handled by professionals in that area, in that expertise. And if an officer is needed for, I guess, safety concerns and things like that, then after that situation has been evaluated, then the police come out. This is similar to like if you have someone sitting in the car and they're intoxicated. Well instead of calling the police, guess what, you call this social service unit that goes and says, hey, listen, we're going to give you a ride. Listen, we're not going to call the police. No citation. We'll take care of it. We'll drive you home, right? There's no need for that citizen to feel and fear for their safety or fear of going back to jail or getting a ticket. Now granted, it doesn't mean we want to coddle citizens so when they are encountering the police that they don't obey the law, not saying that. What we are saying is if we can reduce any unnecessary interaction with the police and if it can create a healthy outcome, then why not? Right? And so you simply send a situation that require a done and require some type of physical action to remove a person or to detain or restrain somebody. Outside of that, all those things should be done by another different service group. That's, I think, even traffic stops as well. I think vehicle accidents as well. I don't think those should be handled by police unless they're a suspicion of maybe DUI or suspicious of maybe some illegal activity. I think there should be another separate unit that goes out there and handles. That should be a social service call and not, you know, you're talking about sending in. It's equivalent to like sending in a little military. When you call the police, you're sending in a little military. That's how I always look at it. And that's how we're designed to look at problems with force. So and not every officer is good at distinguishing when it's appropriate and when it's not appropriate to use levels of force. So should it be harder to become a police officer? Absolutely. It should be. And I want to preface that by saying, is there enough of a demand or enough of not a demand a funnel of people who are actively trying to become police officers or are you guys struggling to recruit? All of the above. So struggling to recruit for obvious reasons, the pay, the resentment, the danger. Yeah. Then you have then you have a situation to where okay, nobody's interested in doing the job. And those who are interested might not be qualified to even do the job. So now you have to constantly lower standards to get closest to the bottom of the barrel in order in hopes that they will, you can train them up within three to four months to do this job. Policing should be by far one of the most difficult professions to get into. The FBI won't allow you to get into there or any federal job within without at least a three to four year background and application process. So if the federal government requires their applicants to go through this three to four year process in policing, you can essentially get the same power as a federal government. They enforce federal laws. You enforce state and local laws. You get the job within three to four months of training. And so the problem is police training should be at least three years, at least two to three years. Before you're out on the street or? Yep. Before you're out on the street, before you're out on the street. At least three years. And I think some of that should be college. And then of course a lot of that should be just constant repetition and training. And that training should extend after and outside of graduation out of the academy. I think training should consist consistently. Right now they don't have a weight requirement. You can turn into a fat ass in this profession and still keep your job. I remember when at my department they tried to give bonuses to those who were able to maintain the PT standards that got you in the job. And those who can actually do it every year annually you got a bonus. They were trying to incentivize officers to lose weight staying in shape. Well of course all the fat officers got mad because they could not do the PT exam at their current weight size and condition that they were in. And so because they weren't getting their raises they threatened to sue the police department. And of course since they were going to win guess what they had to dismantle that idea. What's the problem with that? You know there's there's no incentive to stay in shape. There's no incentive to be a better officer. Once you get in you're in your squared away. And so that within itself is a problem. Officers don't have to become better. You can stay stagnant. You can stay subpar. You'll still get paid the same way. This is this this veteran officer told me this one day I got into this high speed chase and shooting and it just it just got real crazy. And ultimately Woody ended up telling me because I was kind of I was kind of feeling pretty down about the situation how it turned out. And he said Nathan you know you're always trying to catch everybody. You know you're working hard catching everybody. He said but at the end of the day you know sometimes you might lose somebody. And I said that's true. I said but not on my watch right. He said listen the same money they pay you to catch that ass is the same money they pay you to watch that ass get away. And when he said that I'm like man you lazy bastard right. Like I'm listening to him because at the time I'm a young rookie guy. I'm like if I see a criminal catch a criminal or whatever. But him saying that really put it in context of how some officers think that whether I catch you and what he was trying to say is it's OK if you miss him you can catch him tomorrow. You know your money is not going to change either way. That wasn't my mentality. You know my mentality was I have someone who's trying to get away. What if he is a what if he's wanted for kidnapping. What if he's wanted for rape. What if he's wanted for murder. And I didn't try hard enough to catch him. Then I got to look his victim or his family in the face of the family of the victim. And say hey I didn't I didn't try hard enough and they got away. And that was always my greatest fear. So I think that one of the biggest challenges is finding quality officers paying quality officers training quality officers maintaining quality officers. And the way we do it now. There's absolutely no way this is thing is going to continue to work. The reason why we have these bad outcomes with officers and granted. And I will say the majority outcomes are good just from the sheer numbers. If you just look at the data you know the amount of you know we're talking about on average 10 million people are being arrested you know annually. And out of that those being arrested you only have approximately 1200 people who are shot and killed during a police encounter. So one would argue the officers are doing a good job right as far as that's concerned number wise. But again people are having other issues with police and reference to not feeling like they are they could be trusted that they're professional that they're abusing their power and authority and things like that. And those are things that have to be addressed. And regardless of how the numbers look you know our job is to service the people and that the people don't feel like our service is adequate then it's on us to fix it. What can citizens do better to not just police the police but also contribute to better outcomes with the police because we've talked about what police can do better better training better equipment better you know a longer period before you can even wear a badge. What can citizens do better and also talk about some of the psychology of a police officer so we can get a glimpse into what you're thinking when you pull me over what you're thinking when you stop me or when I fit the description. Honestly the best thing the best thing a citizen can do is be properly informed and not allow the media to educate them on on on certain situations. Take the time to listen you know understand that there are officers that are unprofessional understand that they are some that are that are rude have egos. My thing I tell you all the time be patient just be patient don't try to hold court on the side of the street you know document record if you have some issues and reported accordingly you know and so that way you can address your concerns. It's very hard sometimes to win an argument with an officer on the street so I always tell people just be patient understand that sometimes you never know what this officer went through before they got to you or what type of lifestyle that officer lives and it's not to make an excuse but more so to just try to be understanding. You never know what type of officer you're going to get so being courteous being respectful goes a long way. I think that's kind of like the best advice I always give citizens and never never resist you know don't resist arrest try to cooperate as much as possible and even if you're being insulted or disrespected I know it's difficult to say but sometimes just be patient document everything record if you can but don't try to fight or challenge an officer in that moment because it doesn't end well and I think as a citizen knowing your rights is very important and if you feel like your rights have been violated always consult with an attorney but just try to be try to try to put yourself in the shoes of an officer and understand what we go through and what we have to deal with take the time and ask questions and sometimes honestly just saying thank you for your service when you see an officer it goes a long way it feels good smiling even I know sometimes you might not like a particular officer remember all officers are not created equal we're all different people we're all different people wearing a uniform try to see the person in the uniform before seeing the uniform and just the same way I tell citizens you don't like to be profiled or judged officers we don't like that either even when I was out of uniformed and I would get pulled over I always want to see how I was going to be treated just as a citizen and so but because I know the job and the psychosis behind being an officer I understand how we think as well which is why I'm able to say listen sometimes try to get to know that individual person don't treat that officer like the bad officer who treated you bad in that last encounter that you may have had don't punish that officer from your past experience with someone that person's a stranger this is somebody new let that officer give you an opportunity see who they are and build a new rapport with that new encounter and let that speak for that moment and not something that happened in the past with somebody else so the mentality of an officer what I say is that the difference between a Christian Muslim an atheist a homosexual a pedophile a person of integrity personal pride courageous brave person or a person that's trash piece of shit what do they all have in common they all wear a police uniform and that's how diverse policing is and that's the truth you have one of everybody in this profession so it's not a consistent thing where you know you're going to find a little bit everybody why they're there you're you're pulling these people from society so you know I knew an officer who was an atheist who knew an officer who believed in who practiced satanism I'm like how did you get the job I was like well that's his religion right can't discriminate against religions so so who's to say a Christian officer is better than an atheist officer or an officer that's a Muslim it's it's the characters the behaviors the integrity you don't know what you're gonna get and and that's why it's more important to judge officers by their behavior than it is to judge and by who you think they are because you might get it wrong but their behavior will always tell you who they are um and then when the behavior is dressed adjust addressed when the behavior is addressed you can actually examine that the the mind of an officer is interesting because we approach situations always concerned about our safety always concerned about whether or not we are going to go home at night right that you hear officers say that all the time and then your citizens will be like well we want to go home too which is true unfortunately for you the law supports us protecting ourselves over the citizen self right meaning that if you put an officer in an uncomfortable position if you put the officer in a position where they fear for their safety of their life they have a right to protect themselves above all which is why I always tell citizens you know comply to survive yeah so so I always say you know that's the reason why we always make those statements that it's better to comply to survive um the mentality of an officer is about about safety it's always about safety it's always about survival so you know that can create a fear response too with officers so it's always important people say when you're doing this you know don't fidget around don't put your hands in your pockets don't you know make sure you cut the lights on in your car you want to make the officer as comfortable as possible um because you don't want the officer to be uncomfortable be fearful and people say well you're in a job where fear is an element you shouldn't be so scary well that's true you shouldn't but we're human right um and so when we talk about what officers are thinking about a lot of times we're always trying to see um what's the safest way to do a dangerous job um and and that's kind of usually what goes on in our mind what's your response to defund the police um first of all explain how you understand it as an officer and then second of all what is a what does that word look like in your opinion the way i'll tell you how it was marketed it was marketed as we're going to um defund like dismantle um reduce funding uh to the police um that's how it was marketed because i remember when it came out um and then i know they politicized it a lot um but the whole idea was we want to see what life looks like without police uh some city said what life would look like with police with no guns or police that don't do traffic stops so every every city there are a couple major cities that looked at a different some people said we want the police out of the community we don't want them policing uh we had that here in Atlanta where the city of Atlanta was that defund narrative was so strong that the police decided not to respond to 911 calls anymore um so what is it supposed to be about what they started to say after they cleaned up the message was we want to reallocate resources that we're investing way too much money into police um and that money needs to be addressing other areas like these social programs that we talked about earlier which i agree these you know money needs to be reallocated but actually we actually need to refund the police we actually need to put more money into policing the problem is money's not being placed in the right places to have the best outcomes that we need um and so that's what we're having these issues if you want better trained officers if you want better outcome if you want um more high-tech equipment that that can save lives without using lethal methods like a gun you have to pay more money to train officers more and better you have to pay more money to to train them longer if you want higher quality applicants you have to pay them more so so if you want better you have to invest better um and so and if you invest better you end up ultimately end up saving more because the better trained and quipped the officers are you're going to reduce the lawsuits and as you know there's some cities that are that have paid out millions of dollars a nationwide you're talking billions of dollars with the lawsuits so you get to reduce those those losses from a tax person's perspective as well from a taxpayer perspective um so defund the the police is it was a very very bad idea it was a very bad slogan um i understood what they were trying to do but it didn't work um and it was extremely bad marketing in my personal opinion uh i think it's true that you need to fund social programs but they don't even know what programs need to be funded um you need to do something about policing in the police budget but they don't know what to do and that's the issue the they're not taking advice from people who have good ideas they're not taking advice from people in the profession and sometimes some of the biggest people in the profession who are given the advice have been bought out so they don't they have a a biased interest right more so leaning towards their relationship with maybe um like a police union and so when you have that corrupt interest then guess what you're not going to really put the interests of the people before uh before yourself and like anything in this country that's our biggest issue someone's always in somebody's pocket and then the real people who get hurt are the citizens and we don't get any outcomes at all if you think about all that went on with defund the police with black lives matter there have been no tangible policies created that suggest there's any type of reform or change that occurred that would reduce any type of problems that people were suggesting they have with police there's been nothing and so then what was all that for i've heard from a lot of um black people that uh black police officers are the worst almost like they have a uh a chip on their shoulder they need to prove something they need to they go extra hard right to convince maybe their white counterparts that you know i'm i'm gonna be just as fair and just as you know police gung ho as you are is there any truth to that or or how would you i guess help us understand that better yeah man that's like a myth that's a myth i think um um again it's people who see everything with color um people are still trying to attach police behaviors 30 years ago 40 years ago 50 years ago to today it's not to say that there's not going to be that one black officer and that one white officer that are like trying to impress each other i'm not saying that i'm saying the difference between the exception and the rule and i think a lot of times we see one i've had someone tell me that all he was acting like this until the white officer showed up but then they don't realize that the that white officer was the one in charge right they don't understand the dynamics right where whoever pulls you over is one responsible for that interaction everybody else's support so you don't get the final say you don't get the decision so if i am the white officer and i pull you over i'm in control of everything that happens i make the final decision i come second now the second person the black officer shows up now here i go showing up black officer now you see the white officer talking to me crazy i'm the black officer i don't have any power over that unless he's violating the law or abuse of whatever but as far as the decision so now what you see your perception is that you see a white officer being mean to me being rude and you see a black officer just standing there not saying nothing so to you you're like oh you know this is that old yeah he got to sit here and he doing what the white man's telling do and it's not like that at all actually that officer has nothing to do and a lot of times might not even outrank him by seniority so there have been situations where i've showed up and it was a black officer that was primary we call it primary and secondary primaries in charge of everything the primary officer is black i show up he's doing stuff that doesn't that looks stupid to me or whatever and i think he's doing the most i outrank him out of seniority so i have the power to go and tell him to sit down and chill out right and so i show up secondary officer the primary officer is white he's doing something crazy i don't like i don't agree with i have the power and authority to tell him to chill out i've done it we do it black officers check white officers and vice versa all the time now granite people would say well maybe that that's not the same maybe in some rural podunk town south georgia alabama is okay yeah possibility that's true but those are exceptions those aren't the rule and i think i've seen people say you know why why does it take these four officers to show up four white officers and one black officer and he's sitting here doing this and the black officer show up now he's showing out well then i would hear these things and i would ask him what the scenario is i'm like oh okay that's what it is the problem is some black people are trained to see everything through racism um and sometimes it's just not there but we can force ourselves to see it that way because we don't like what we see but not understanding what's actually taking place um it doesn't mean it is racist it just means you just don't understand um but but what i will say is um are you asked uh what was the other question you asked with that it was kind of uh basically uh black officers doing the most and they're trying to prove something to the white counterparts that they're fair in the whole night yeah so that's that's not a thing i think people what they have to realize is there's a there is a actual family bond between officers a lot of times black white asian hispanic and a lot of times you have officers that are just rude they're just assholes they have egos and there's a shared ego relationship between these officers whereas one officer though he's black and this officer's white they align with the same views on how to police so what what's happening is you're having two like-minded people working together who believe that this is an appropriate way to police the citizenry and so in your mind you see color well i've worked with these officers what i see is brotherhood i see camaraderie right i see we're we're partners we're actually partners we ride together so we've established a bond until we act the same way um you have some officers where they just have an ego problem and sometimes their ego is so bad that it does translate into mistreatment and that's not okay but again i've witnessed it because i've witnessed them treat a white person the exact same way with the same attitude the same disrespect or the same ego i've seen them do it consistently across the board but again that's not to negate or take away people say black officers and this is something that i have witnessed and it's something i always talk about i was like i've seen black officers treat black people worse than white officers just like when women say i've seen women officers treat women worse than they see men treat i don't know what that's about now what i will say is um anytime i talk to people a lot of times about this and i say well have you ever been stopped by a white officer and you know even today you know we spoke to you know russell he's a young white male and he talked about his experience with with white police officers and he talked about the same thing that we talk about on our side of defense in reference to professionalism and how he was profiled right he was profiled based on how he looked um he was profiled based on his age and he profiled him because he was white he thought he was a drug like he was going to have drugs on him so so but these are stories that we don't hear in the black community because we think it doesn't necessarily happen quote unquote we don't think white people are harassed um and profiled because they look a certain way and it's not to take away from our experience but but i always like to highlight that to show that it it's not just us and that it is a problem over here as well um and so i think that i don't know i blame it on ego some people like to say it's uh black folks wanting to be you know they've been brainwashed and to be white supremacist soldiers and no that's when i say that's so far from the truth sometimes you guys it's just as simple as saying this guy's an asshole he's a dick you know he really wants to be more than who he is and i think it has everything to do with power has nothing to do with skin color i think people get so caught up in skin color but let me tell you this this is the only profession that i know of where you don't have to earn somebody's respect to be respected right so could you imagine you don't have to be a respectable person in order to demand and command to be respected so i simply have to put this uniform on even though i'm not a respectable person you have to respect me simply because i have the uniform on listen i think people don't understand how powerful that is what does that do to somebody who never took the time to be one a respectable person an honorable person a person with integrity but simply because i wear this uniform you have to respect me you have to submit to me in public if i tell you to do something you have to do it if you touch me i have to make an example out of you if you don't listen to my commands i have to make an example out of you now mind you i may have never threw a punch in my life i may have never had to do anything that was courageous or brave but because i had the uniform on you acknowledge me as a brave person you acknowledge me as a courageous person you acknowledge me as a person with integrity though i've never did anything worth being respected or had ever had any integrity in my entire life the uniform grants you that and you never earned it that's the problem with the profession that's why it's not about skin color it's about power you have people in this profession that command respect and they're not respectable people before they put the uniform on they weren't anybody that should have been respected in the first place but the profession requires that you respect them that's the issue that has to be fixed you fix that you fix 80 of the problem in law enforcement that piece right there has to be fixed you know and so that's the challenge we've seen this with the uh that was a sociology experiment with the prison yeah right and they put these people in that they put these in this uh the Stanford prison experiment and what did it show you showed you that there you go power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely everybody was not meant to wield power and they don't teach you how to wield power they give you power and they don't tell you its effects they don't tell you how it can be abused and they don't tell you how corrosive it is self-corrosive it is there are times I used to look in the mirror and I had to check myself you know um and so when you have people who don't do that introspective work when I ask somebody to do something they have to do it regardless of how they feel you have to comply with what I say or I have to make you I always had a philosophy I called it the ATM method ask tell and make in that order I don't deviate if I ask you you don't do it I'm going to tell you if you don't do it I have to make you that's the job a lot of people don't realize but that is the job I can't sit here and argue with you if you're under arrest you're under arrest you don't want to go to jail then guess what I have to make you the first time I had a situation a guy told me he just got done beating the mess out of his girlfriend her eyes purple closed up ribs purple shattered her ribs think even broker draw lacerated her lips he showed up he just got out of prison he looked at me and said he's not going back to jail all right I'm only two years in the job 22 year old young man looking at this grown man he says I'm not going back to jail he said what you're going to do so I put my gloves I said oh shit I guess we're about to get we're about to get physical so in that situation what do you do I have to make you I have to put you in handcuffs I can't ask you nicely you said you're not going and you said you're ready to throw down so what do you do in that situation I think you have people who aren't built for this even I was too young to be doing this job should have never they should never allow anybody under the age of 25 to be a police officer there's no way I think my sheer maturity and ability to to self reflect and my humbleness allowed me to maneuver through this profession I was able to talk more people in handcuffs than I had to actually put hands on them and so but I had respect for people I've had people tell me hey man I was going to reach for that gun but man some just told me like nah you know I would I would pray with people on the way to the jail you know I would I would speak life into them on the way to the jail I would tell people hey you know you know this incident doesn't have to define you you know I know you robbed that lady hey I know you you you know you did this and did that you sold these drugs this doesn't have to define you you know and so I had a different approach but I'm there are other officers like me but we're not all like that you know what I mean and so that's a challenge too finding people with the right heart but but overall man there's a it's a power complex and if you don't deal and address the power you don't teach officers how to wield that power how to understand when that power is overtaking them and what that looks like and check them and and and cut that off you're going to have a problem they don't teach you how to deal with power they don't teach any of us how to deal with power that's why when you see people who finally get money and success they act crazy they start losing themselves in the moment why because now you finally feel powerful first time in your life and you do not know how to handle it you don't know how to handle when you can make someone do something that they don't want to do that's power you can make up a story you can fabricate you can bend the rules right this power you have power you have leverage that goes that that counts for outside the police and inside the police department you know should uh should police officers live in the neighborhoods that they police why or why not wow that's a good question um no they should not um I did in my first in my beginnings but I stayed across I lived across street from a woman who was a prostitute her son was a gang member and he would break in the homes and break in the cars he knew I lived across from him and I would see her bring John's in the house all the time we had a we had a we had an understanding and a respect he knew who I was I knew who he was he was going to do dirt in the neighborhood he did all his dirt outside the the uncomfortable thing was he knew where I lived at right he knew you know there are nights I would get off from work I would obviously change my uniform keep my gun on me and stuff like that so that people wouldn't know who I am but eventually people find out I would have to go to the store and we're going to like Walmart and Publix I'd always have to wear disguises hats and everything like that wear sunglasses because you know you run into these people again you go to the mall you run into these same people you dealt with last week the guy you locked up his girlfriend they're out before you get off of work you run into them you know I would tell my family if you see me in my uniform out at out working don't ever speak to me unless I speak to you first um and so because you never know if I'm dealing with somebody looking for somebody and they see me acknowledge you and then now you become a target I had to take myself off of social media because you had suspects who were looking for officers and seeing what their family were and things like that threatening them trying to follow them around um and so no I don't think I think if officers live in a community it has to be secured and gated it has to be a police compound of sorts to where that's where officers live at and yes they do live in the community but they live in this compound but the problem is you still have to live and exercise and move around within that area and it's dangerous what do you do when the suspect that you arrested they follow you back home they find out what car you drive they find we've been officers who've been carjacked they've been officers who've been robbed you know there's there's all types there's officers homes have been broken into and their equipment and weapons have been stolen so it is very dangerous what's the solution because a lot of people's argument is if you don't live in the community then how do you how are you attached to the community well you don't have to live there to be attached my solution based on um my reform package that I put together how do you work around that when you extend the amount of time officers need to be training you also need to be sending them into these communities to do community service without the uniform without they're done there's a certain amount of hours that they need to consistently do not just in the academy but also after they graduate community service should always be a part of their job meaning maybe it's one day a week right because now here's how my reform package looks if I told you about 85 percent to 90 percent of the stuff officers are called to do we shouldn't be necessary yeah so if you take all that away guess what now they these guys got seven days a week wide open to work well one day out of those weeks every week one day a week that officer should be doing mandatory community service training in the community whatever that looks like they need to be there they need to be bonded and connected to the community that they're serving that's how you do it and you do it consistently it's part of the job it's not something you did in the academy it's not something they force you to do it's part of the job um that's how you built that relationship that's how you built that bond I think you cannot serve I think you cannot serve a community if you're not attached or connected to them you don't have to necessarily live there but you have to understand you have to be a part of it having officers do community service even outside of work we're talking everybody's required normally what police officers or police departments do now is they have maybe five officers they're part of a community service unit and that five their job is to do go out there hand out candies and kiss babies well the other 99 percent of the officers are not required to do it well that's a problem so these five officers are there to give the impression that we are community based but those five officers a lot of times don't even do police work anymore on on average they play the football and they help it does help create a positive image right but you need the officers who are doing the job to have those connections because just because officer john has a good rapport with the community doesn't mean officer tim mike scott you know tyrone officer tyrone officer jackson they need the same rapport as well why because they're the ones who are going into those communities day in and day out and they don't know the people they live an hour away from the community they're serving they're white and they're patrolling in a black community you know what you need to do just like in school when we're in high school white kids sat on this table black kids sat on this table Asians sat on this table you have to force them to be a part of the community they're serving people need to see their face know who they are they need to understand what's going on they need to understand the nuance the struggles they need to understand what people are going through day and day you need to to mingle with the children you need to have a connection they need to see themselves and the people that they're serving and so that is the answer to that problem officers would never agree being forced to live in a community because it's a safety issue these officers have kids some of them are married so so that's why I always say and we talked about this earlier people bring out these ideas but because they didn't do the job they don't understand why officer will say no I don't agree with that to them they're like well this is a good idea no no it's not a good idea because it's a safety concern you know we want to sleep safe at night as well and so I think that's one of the challenges people don't realize and I think that's why it's so important to have someone like myself or other officers with experience and a creativity because outside of being experienced how creative are you about solving the problem you have to be able to think outside the box so you know just as simple I've never heard of making it mandatory for all officers do community service and if you're the type of officer that's like I don't want to do that then you're not meant to be an officer your job your call to be a servant of the people right you cannot serve people that you do not know and that's just what it is what is um what's your take on gun control or more specifically the abundance of guns uh amongst citizens does that make police work harder or would you prefer a world where more citizens are armed I think there's too many guns I think I prefer a country where citizens have a ability to protect themselves so I'm pro um 2a all day I have no issues with it I do think people get carried away but I know that's the personal prerogative right so no question there I have an issue with the irresponsibility of gun owners a lot of our guns that these criminals have and young adults have kids have teenagers have they have them because they steal them from gun owners from legal gun owners so you have illegal gun owners taking legal guns from legal gun owners well that's the problem because they're irresponsible gun owners I love guns I think they should have them um um I think any form of gun control is kind of it's uh it's a it's not logical