 Welcome back to the breakfast on PLOS TV Africa. Our first major conversation this morning moves to the Niger Delta with regards to the Petroleum Industry Act. The Nigerian security agencies have threatened of course to do what is necessary to maintain law and order and that is after a group of Niger Delta militants I guess have also put out statements saying that there would be chaos in the Niger Delta with their disagreements concerning the Petroleum Industry Act. This morning we are speaking with Uzoma Nkemabonta as a member house of representatives in Abia. We're also going to be joined by another guest in just a few seconds. We're starting with Mr Nkemabonta. Good morning. Thanks for joining us. Good morning. Good morning. Welcome viewers. Thanks for joining us. I want you to also start with your own analysis on the Petroleum Industry Act. There's those who you know completely you know you know see this as fraudulent and say the president shouldn't have gone on to ascend to it and then there's also those who say that you know it's really just misunderstood. So let's get your views on the on the act itself. What are your thoughts? Well thank you very much. I would want to say that in the arts it could be said that the thing of the damage find into law. Now we're having a you know some struggle with with misconnection so we're going to have to you know reconnect with Mr Uzoma Nkemabonta as a member representing a member in the House of Representatives in Abia State and the conversation mostly is on the Petroleum Industry Act. Militants have threatened to go on with you know chaos in the Niger Delta because they completely disagree with the act you know and we hope that we can have a better conversation this morning on on the little details here and there that may be causing this chaos. We're also meant to be joined by Mujahid Asarid Dukubo, former leader of the Movement for the Emancipation of the Niger Delta as we try to reconnect with them. It's a it's it's a lot of drama you know and I also have done I'm sure you also have you know looked at those into details concerning the 30% and the 3% you know and the way that it has been you know some people would say misunderstood to you know and interpreted as 30% moving to go into the north you know while 3% is going to the south you know when you say it that way it obviously already sounds a little fraudulent but you know there's also people who have gone to look closer at it and gotten to you know put up points that show that it may not be exactly the way it has been painted. Yes and that's exactly what I would like to explain now with the PIA first of all it was a widely celebrated event the fact that the president gave his assent to a bill that has gathered dust for about 20 years you know so yes people said oh fantastic good one that the president went ahead to sign this into law. Now the controversy really became or rather came around when we started to see the reaction of leaders in Niger Delta to this and we saw people say you know just like you mentioned you know groups in a Niger Delta threatened that it will begin to destroy oil installations in the Niger Delta on the basis that and on the basis of the understanding of the PIA which is according to them that you're taking money from the south and giving it to the north or taking money that you know generated from oil and all of that to develop frontier basins and oil exploration so when they see all 30% going to the north they freak out and 3% going to the going to Niger Delta communities they're saying this feels like you know you're cheating us this this just seems you know unfair but you know recent you know publications that we've seen that really went ahead in detail to break this down tries to give a difference you know understanding and perspective to the PIA and according to what we see I'm going to read out quotes you know from this publication it said that the 3% or it went on to explain that the 3% you know that is going to host communities is is from the operational expenditure of oil companies as the OPEX of oil companies so this 3% we're talking about is from the operational expenditure of oil companies but the 30% that is going to frontier basis is will be set aside by the NNPC from its profits oil and profit gas so I think that's the first distinction we have to make that the source of this 3% and 30% are different it's not 30% of this particular you know pull of money that we have we're taking 30% of this whole money to the north for oil exploration and giving just 3% to the south no it's the fact that the 3% is generated from the operational expenditure of all companies which is a lot and they went on to do you know rough calculations to say this would be about about let's get that exact detail about 200 billion dollars yes so an estimate an estimate is going to be about 200 billion right that's from the 3% from operational expenditure but the 30% of profit oil and profit gas would now be about just 60 billion because I can mention the source of both fund is not the same so that's the first distinction that they've tried to make you know that the origin of this is basically ignorance that you know people have not been able to have a grasp on the facts of this matter so it went on to say that people saying this money is just going to the not the north and that before now before the PIA the fund for exploration I just been in the chat basin but the PIA expands this bracket also include states other states in Nigeria that are not even from the north states like Anambra and Benway you know so that people should also be happy to see that not just the north but that money would also be invested into other states like Anambra and Benway to search for oil exactly other frontier basins there's the Sokoto there's the Benway there's the Anambra you know there's Eboni there's Benway there's Lagos there's Sarabha there's Ondo there's Ogum so from my understanding right not everybody in the Nigerian also might have access to this information or go ahead to read it in detail but that's where you have the federal government and the national orientation agency that we keep talking about they are supposed to explain these things for the common man to understand don't you agree with me they're supposed to break this down because when people keep talking about where's the NUA where's the NUA this is what they're supposed to do they're supposed to I mean if you're if you're bringing up a new law yes we know that you're supposed to bring every stakeholder on board to make them understand you know what it is and bring in the opinion as well but it also has to be that point where you explain to people because people are miss people misunderstand this thing they see 30% or I'm being cheated 3% or you're being unfair to me what if the government what why do we have a minister of information why do we have a national orientation agency it is their job to be able to explain this to the common man so they don't run with the information that oh they have been they have been cheated or been unfairly treated but that's the reason why we're discussing this on the breakfast today absolutely we're gonna go once again speak with our guest us on my income up on that can you hear us now sir mr. income up on that can you hear us okay the sound is better now please go ahead yeah like I was trying to go on the artist up now how to satisfy the naming of certain property and seems to have got some sections on newly yes we are we will have a curriculum at that from prehensives that has unbundled and all working but if you look at you carry now that is not a delta has been closely changed how can you start to think of whatever imagine what is all the way to begin to expect for oil when we already found oil where people are shopping you now give them halfway we were told something that is not useful again therefore we need to mine all the oil we have and sell if that is true then why not see the mine of the ones you already that is commercially valued I'm going to work right out there so the totality of this deal he leaves the oil you put you to the earth we're struggling till the end of it and not particular however I think that having gotten an act now which will also be new to press for an amendment and dialogue over it but as presently signed by Mr. President it's not changing the house out and what you put between the areas which is not there anymore it's not Mr. Enkema Bonta there is some analysts that have pointed out that the 3% that is being projected for oil communities may even be way higher than this 30% you know that is been stated for frontier states because they are not gotten from the same source the 3% is coming from from oil expo oil licenses and of course exploration licenses from the oil companies going to be in that are going to be in the Niger Delta but the 30% is from profit oil and profit gas which really sometimes isn't really not so much money I do not think that this calculation is correct if they think it's correct why would they not put it out there can they tell us the formula from oil can they be clear and transparent enough to tell us from the existing record what has been gotten in all days they cannot this is just what they are trying to teach now to propagate now to push in I do not think so there's no way that 2% will be less compared to 3% even if you look at it from the growth perspective from which my friend will you do it is short changing it's not correct so let them put all the people out there in the public domain so we can also look at it critically okay Mr. Abonta I understand what you said and where you're coming from regarding you know if 30% is really lesser than the 3% then why is why why is the federal government not putting information out there you know that's on the back of what I mentioned that you know the federal government really does need to do a lot of enlightenment you know regarding the facts of this matter but according to you know the PIA this 30% I want us to be able to make that distinction Mr. Abonta if you can hear me clearly according to what we know with the PIA the 30% first of all is not going to any community that means no community would receive cash to say this is what we're giving you unlike what's happening with the host communities are the host communities are actually receiving this fund you know to develop the area right so that's the first difference so it's not as though money I think monies are being given to you know communities in the northern part of Nigeria they're not getting this money the money is just you know to explore different parts of the country for oil and it's not just enough it's also Lagos it's Ogu it's Ondo it's Sokoto it's Benwe it's Teraba so I think you know these are points that we need to actually understand so we can all you know speak on it from a place of place of you know understanding also to to mention that this 30% and 3% why we're saying that you know according to the analysis we've seen that the 30% might be less than the 3% is because they're not from the same source so Mr. Bonter the fact that we have with the PIA is that the 30% going for exploration of oil would be coming from the profit oil and profit gas and this money is basically the NMPC share of the profits of its production sharing contract this means that this 30% basically is what the NMPC would get after you know they have actually gone ahead to distribute what they need to other sources so that's why it seems like it's going to be a very meager amount but the 3% really will be coming from the operational expenditure of these oil companies so when we do the math it then seems that the 30% going for oil exploration is way lower going to be about just 60 billion or from 2019 yes from 2019 estimates that we saw if we're going to go by that the 30% is going to be about 60 billion for oil exploration right while the one for the 3% going to host communities will be about 200 billion that's right so that really is the fact so I'm asking you now based on this this information that we have once again do you think that the government should have been able to give the people enough information for them to have you know the power you know of course information is power to know that it's not exactly as they see it but the fact that you know the information needed to be put out there Mr. Albonta yes to your argument the argument is very patrician but it's lame it's not thorough let me begin to analyze with you if what you are saying is correct why didn't they put it in public domain why didn't they get to do it why didn't they campaign on and do why didn't they make it thorough but let me not talk to you you'll now also say that the frontier will not defend us to anybody it's a joke I know how budget has been spent in Nigeria now who is going to handle the 30% who is going to control the frontier who is managing the frontier account why will it be spent even if you don't do people catch when the frontier money but it is spent in a particular area in a particular center in a particular manner so we do not think numerically this figure it doesn't balance the government and why do you see why do you go to the agency why do you go to the procedure what is surrounding the whole thing tricky why were they not too thorough so this mathematics now or a little bit bigger not going to do can we put that time back into the understanding of everybody who is going to manage the frontier and where will they go to and then also ask you must you put more emphasis in looking for unknown when it's not completed you know okay mr. Bonta on the back of that I need to ask you right oil exploration actually happened you know for us to discover you know places that with that that there were oil basically in Nigeria so are you saying that the people of the 90 Delta would not want us to go ahead and explore all the parts of Nigeria where there might be oil for our greater good no no no no no no there's two with what's concluded oil for oil but emphasis will be given to what you have people will always say that a plate of good head is a better than the bush you're not sure of anything I'm not saying the shift of her for you we must keep looking for oil but not at the detriment of the world you have already found what we'll say is that that to be a fairer treatment of the only position already that we share that treatment of this that we're also prospecting will also have faith that we also get good treatment when I use eventually found which you will cover all the oil which you prospect for oil because oil has to be our ministry of economy therefore anything that will increase the availability of oil we propose all right Mr. Bonta I want us to move away from the bill now and then look really closer at well you know still taking off a thought from the 3% there still is you know the 13% derivation fund that is sent to the Niger Delta Niger or to oil producing states aside that there's 3% that gets to the NDDC that also is for the Niger Delta if you're adding another 3% now from the Petroleum Industry Act that sounds like it's a lot of funds that have been directed to the Niger Delta and oil producing states do you think that over time the state governments have done well enough and that includes the NDDC have done well enough in helping the Niger Delta and oil producing states to be better with the amount of money that has been budgeted and has been accrued to them in the last couple of decades yeah but why I'm asking this is because I don't see agitation from the Niger Delta youths and from these you know bodies here and there in the Niger Delta and of course including Nabiya state I don't see agitation concerning you know the 3% that gets to the NDDC and the 13% derivation fund and the failure of the government at the state level to utilize these funds well enough there are pictures of that were released a couple of days ago of our area market in Abyya state where you are from that showed a very very sad picture of what that market is and the roads there so why isn't there you know that much attention focused on the state governments and their own failures yes the answer is no but therefore I think that we should go back to going to go to the direct and pre-order the extended chopper plan in NDDC because what we have now is a huge fraud what we have done before most of this quality going on so we should go back and then destroy otherwise the people they might be so continue to do yeah but I mean you're your house of raps member for Abyya states yes so who would you say needs to be saying these things or who do you say that these that this attention needs to be focused on sorry I'm saying you are a part of the government in Abyya state so who would you say that the attention needs to be focused on well and then should be designed should be designed and make it work to send money without a proper analysis the proper consultation without a proper study who does the body of them is this is not involved the communities are not involved somebody sees that somewhere you're a budget that can you imagine the budget doing water hyacinth in Abyya where there's no water so if you mountain hyacinth or this is hyacinth I mean you should find a thing for the communities are to be involved I mean if all you could do something with don't force on them what is not desired so Mr. Abonza really when we have the facts you know on the table let's say the government comes out to begin to enlighten people on you know what these three percent versus 30 percent represents do you think that the people of the Manje Delta will have any more grievance well if you if you completely teach them or make them understand to their satisfaction why will not they will not but that means my own view is why would they be arguing for more it's like I said the act is not a beginning of better things to come I think we'll move forward from where we were so why would experiment the law is not custom I am so we cannot begin to ask amendment as we begin to practice it as we begin to speak before last if they will be sincere now the current on the team is being put in place how are you involved in the most communities in the current community how are you sure that proper decision is being made so it will be as easy as usual so I want to be told I want to be told that them that they proposed that for yourself like a data to manage the whole commitment so do you think the challenge here really would be about implementation that's if the 3% would actually be you know begin to go to host communities and all the promises of the PIA be realized so I didn't get up I'm asking now that do you think the challenge of the PIA will be about the implementation will be an extension of what we'll be the implementation of the implementation of the problem I hear about implementation that will be a shoulders well thought out plan of implementation of it that is the only way people will also enjoy the app for example if the host community money is not well managed the masses will still suffer therefore there should be a strong management of the 3% that should also be a strong management of the app itself several commissions are being put up under the app to manage the several sectors of it that they must be credible people not be a repeater of NNPP or a repeater of NGPP so implementation must be carefully done yeah Mr. Abontab quickly also share with us what figure you think would have been better you know if we're going to move up from 3% where do you think or what percentage do you think would have been a lot better or more comfortable for the Niger Delta I didn't get that I'm asking if we're going to move away from 3% and you want to take it higher what percentage of funds do you think would have you know the right with the Niger Delta well I am of the house of representatives we propose we passed 5% the Senators passed 3% and the speaker in one of the offices asked us to harmonize and take this part of the rest and coming by representation the rest represents more so their fashion author don't correct because they truly represent the people so how it came to the reality that it's not back on became the other of the day if what we don't know what they don't understand give me the the injunction given by sugar that I'm listening to the house back on all right Mr. Bonter I also want us to address the issue of the Niger Delta use and the seeming violence you know how it seems that they take to violence really when they want to you know just talk about the grievances for example they have threatened to destroy all installations this is nothing new we've heard and seen this time and time again how would you advice you to the Niger Delta to better you know talk about what really bothers them without you know going to or taking other violence means like burning all installations and vandalizing pipelines and all of that no violence is and discussion of oil to question may not be the best approach I will advise against that we must continue to negotiate and bargain violence will set off back violence and discussion of oil so long we'll also that we're more fun to set up again no I do not think it's the best option I should think that superior agreement will begin to negotiate and bargain and lobby and negotiate and lobby that's what I think I don't think violence will be the best approach now I know they are hoping I know they are doing but I will beg for a little time for us to begin to study the act properly and the implementation of the act properly and see whether they depart from what is to be so I will beg them to allow some time and give them the government a little time to look at issues and we think and then implement the act let us see in few period of the year the musician will tell off the deficit or advantage or whatever you need then one would be better position to say this this or this wasn't based all right Mr. Bonta you mentioned five percent you know when I was asking what percentage you felt would be better just a random question the five percent is still smaller than thirty percent so why do you think that that would have reduced the agitation now five percent was what the grudgingly agreed to do I mean the house of the present you haven't seen all the indication it's okay let us start from that point if you look at the paper because seven and a half usually look at the draft paper the house made seven and a half you see until all after the agreement and constitution is sent to five percent and then finish or change it for that you are not staying five percent is ideal but if the various minimum the house being seen then having considered all having done their own mathematics so this much is not by government public to have been using a user or not methodology we're able to arrive at five percent not the seven and half contained in our book yeah okay so so this house of my come up on that so so now let's get a clearer picture when there were these mathematical calculations you know do you have a you know an idea a rough estimate of what you know the amount of money may have been getting to these oil communities or British communities you know if five percent had been approved or seven seven point five percent I do not have the amount of the studio that will go to the community but when you are talking about the community it ranges to every oil well that is in a community not to one community yeah but it runs to millions of Naira not to millions of Naira not one community and then if you look at the whole description of host communities you understand the definition of host community again it's not the point not where wherever the pipeline passes it's host communities so that one is not yet so if you are taking pipeline now to Ghana those stages are just to Ghana it's host communities so you look at the definition of host community again before you begin to look at the amount okay Mr. Uzo Aman came up on to the House of Reps at BF State we thank you very much for joining us on the breakfast this morning. Thank you very much. Alright we'll take a break here I'll be right back stay with us. Great to have you back here on the Breakfast in Plos TV Africa the conversation continues and that is with the Niger Delta opposition to the Petroleum Industry Act we're now joined by Mujahid Asari Dokubon a former leader of the Movement for the Emancipation of the Niger Delta mend. Mr Dokubon good morning thanks for joining us. Good morning. Great to have you on the breakfast well once again we just got off you know a conversation with the House of Reps member from Abya State and he has he shared his views with regards to the agitation against the Petroleum Industry Act but would first of all like to get yours you know and understand clearly where you stand with regards to the act do you also think that it is an unfair act that was signed and the president shouldn't have given us into it. The Petroleum is not different from the Jim Crow laws in the southern part of the United States of America leading up to the civil rights problem or the apartheid law in former South Africa or Asia and the discriminatory laws in Myanmar the again the Niger mostly and the Zionist laws in apartheid. Okay can you explain further why why do you describe it that way. No it's never been any law that has been so cruel and wicked so addictive like this law in every federation except this abnormal contraption of all material what you have is a semi-autonomous return coming together as the building block of the nation almost absolute control over their forces and other areas of law making laws for themselves and so on and what we have in the 1960s and 1960s is very clear we have the tools in this we have the residual needs and we have the concurrently these are areas of legislation now after the 1967 we now have a unitary system of government masquerading as a federal government but at no time had any government gone far as totally excluding the rights of the people to their resources have been the tutorial government has done because it's very clear you allow Zangfara and out of no time to have exclusive access to the resources we need the soil of that state while you deny the people of the oil bearing state in the south east and south south and south west from our are we not exclusive right but it totally confiscated right from them and now invested in a unitary government in Abuja this law I don't think there's any part of the world that there are these funds that are sponsored up even in Saudi Arabia and in the Gulf states which are monarchy okay I want you to give me specific parts of the PIA that you disagree with I don't I was from the highlight of what I have read in the paper because it's not knowing that anybody can go and be that people later what I have seen represent is given to oil bearing communities happy reason given to look for oil that is end of the development of all that we will be given to give a sense of what's and 3% of what's if you give if you can be very specific with me please 3% we're not in the class we're not in a lecture class you know that 3% was assigned to oil bearing community 3% of what's that that's that's the question really 3% of total proceeds from oil is committed to oil bearing community now this oil bearing community has now been further expanded and defined as anywhere where oil pipeline pass through the people of Abu Nima did not have to worry and if you want to be pipeline through from the state of the pipeline through legacy it is they will be pipeline through legacy they cannot not take the resources of Abu Nima and give to Bombay and they got state okay Mr. Dokubo actually when we look through the PIA we discover some things that actually challenged information we thought we knew about the PIA so unlike what you believe that the 3% is 3% of you know money that you know profits according to how you described it and it's actually 3% of operational expenditure that will be going to the oil communities the host communities in a Niger Delta and that the 30% is actually coming from the profit oil and profit gas of the NNPC so I've been asking you 3% of what exactly because I wanted to find out if you know that is actually a difference in the source of the funds in the source of the 3% and the source of the 30% so the funds are not exactly the same thing because their sources are different so when we break down the 3% and 30% you know based on statistics we have from 2019 we find that the 3% in actual fact would give you actually much more money because it's from the operational expenditure of the NNPC which would be about 200 million 200 billion Naira you know with 2019 estimates and that the 30% of profit oil profit gas would give you about just 60 billion from 2019 estimate so I want us to be clear that the source of the 3% and 30% is not the same pool so I don't know what you have to say about that and if that challenges how you see the PIA or whatever Yes exactly what you said that NNPC doesn't have any money anywhere I mean the and news is obvious that the NNPC really is not profitable. So if the 30% is coming from profit oil, profit gas, and we already know that NNPC is not profitable, you know, from the 2019 estimate, we saw that their funds really, the profit oil, profit gas, accounted for just 0.6% in 2019. So what is going to be 30% of 0.6% if we have the same figures in 2021? So really, what are we saying, Mr. Dukubo? I don't think that you understand what I'm saying. If you understand what I'm saying, it is very clear that this money comes from a place. This money does not touch the sky. It comes from a place, and where it comes from? You cannot legislate without consulting the people of this area. When you want to take... When you want to make laws that affect the people of this dimension, that affect the environment, affect their livelihood, affect their lifestyle, it must go beyond the chamber of the two houses and in Abuja, the Senate and the House of Representatives. The people must be consulted because it is the destiny that you are legislating above. You cannot sit in Abuja and make it clear how many South Side people are there. Where the people of the region consulted, the people of the oil bearing communities consulted before this law would be paid to take their resources, their money, their environment, and go to special oil as well. All right, so Mr. Dukubo, you have a challenge with the Nigerian government using funds that is generated from the Niger Delta to set for oil anywhere else in Nigeria. It's not different from colonialism. It's not different from England coming here and the rise of colonialism. And I'm siphoning our department, transferring our department to London. It is not different from Germany going to Namibia siphoning the resources of Namibia to Bali. It's the same thing. This is internal colonialism. Mr. Dukubo, that's different because we are one country. It's not Nigeria to Togo. It's one Nigeria. Where did the people meet? Where did the people meet exactly? One Nigeria. Where did we meet anywhere in the history of this country? That Nigeria met. Have there been any referendum in Nigeria to say that we are one country? One Nigeria was imposed on us by the British and by militants there. So it is not different from colonialism. Mr. Dukubo, would you have preferred if there was no 30% oil exploration fund? And there was more money added of the funds were directed towards the oil communities in the Niger Delta. Would it have been more palatable to say 20% of operational expenditure should be going to oil communities in the Niger Delta and 3% maybe to oil exploration? How such power? It is immoral. It doesn't have such rights. What you are saying is that in 1950 when the British left, they left a federal constitution. They left a federal structure which was dismantled by the militants. This federal structure that is dismantled is what has worked about the very good and primitive unitary system of government, ended by some people in Apoonga, which has ended them immorally to steal the resources of the government. It's a crime. The jobs, the robbers and the debuts. Mr. Dukubo, lastly, are you aware that the funds we're talking about is not going to the North like is widely believed? It's also for oil exploration in states like Anambra, in Lagos, in Ogu, in Ondo, Eboni. So it's not just in the North? That is not, that is, you cannot take resources from the zombie and go to any butubang and spend for it. If the fellow government wants to let them sell the constitution, the OMS, to foreign oil exploration corporation, to come and do it. But Mr. Dukubo, won't you agree that it's this kind of thinking that divides us? This thinking that some would say is not nationalistic. Why should we not be divided? Why should we take by one and give by another person? And then give it up to the North? Why should I stick to somebody and the party will not give me? Why should somebody tell me that he will use my life to break his heart? He will use my business? I will always give him and he will not give me. What kind of unity do you want? Unity of one giving, one saving for the other. What sort of unity is that? So Mr. Dukubo, so does that mean that you are standing with the Niger Delta youths and militant groups who have threatened to cause chaos and destroy oil infrastructure if this PIA stands? Most of these people are criminals. Masquerading and struggling for the region. You gotta do a thing and bribe them. They should bribe and pursue a war super and struggle. In the name of OMS, so if they come out today that they are threatening to do this thing, I don't buy it today. What I believe is that 100% of us set the set out. For a minister to come out to say what he has said, he's so appalled that the oil companies will leave. To a minister from the region, he's serving the interests of multinational oil companies. He's promoting new colonialism in his own region, against his own people. He's promoting foreign interests against his own people. His militant from the region. He's so shameful. Mojahed Asari Dukubo, thank you very much. Thank you. Always interesting speaking with you. Thanks for joining us this morning. Thank you. All right. So up next on the breakfast, we'll be speaking about a 22-year-old lady who has been termed an iPop spy girl. Do stay with us.