 Hello everyone, this is JSA TV and JSA podcast the newsroom for telecom and data center professionals My name is Laurel Burton. I am an executive vice president of strategy here at JSA TV And more importantly, I'm your moderator for today on behalf of everyone here at JSA. I want to thank you for joining us I'm excited to say that we've had well over 250 registrants already and I'm sure on demand we're going to have even more and I think it just goes to prove the importance of today's topic as We delve deeper into the industry's continued efforts around greener solutions and greener data outcomes for all Before we get started just a little bit of housekeeping for everyone First and foremost, I want to let you know that this is a platform that allows for networking after the panel discussion So I would ask all of you to please remain on the bridge and you're going to Automatically be transferred into a live networking session as soon as this panel discussion concludes And you'll be able to take your seat at a virtual table to meet and network with your your speakers and fellow attendees immediately following our conversation Second, this is an interactive session. So if you have any questions, feel free to share share those by typing them in I think there's even emojis you can use if you'd like and last but not least for the first 100 of you that Registered ahead of the event. We've provided lunch for those of you that the registered So please enjoy lunch on behalf of JSA while we get started So let's start I would like to start by introducing all of our speakers So if all of you could please introduce yourself the company you're with and tell us a little bit about why you're passionate about Today's topic West can we start with you? And then I'm gonna have Kim Avery and Patrick also do the same West. Let's begin with you. Yeah. Good morning Our afternoon depending on where you're at. I'm West Swanson. I'm the CEO of Nova data centers We're headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah Expanding mainly in the West right now, but eventually across the United States. We do mostly new design green field green builds and that's what we focus on and I'm passionate about this because You know being in a leadership position it would be a waste Otherwise to not try to do something better to improve on our carbon footprint and the materials we consume Especially concrete when we build these facilities things like that. So it's it's a It's just part of our ethos. So we're very passionate about it Thank you Hello, I'm Kim Gunelis chief commercial officer and co-founder of a verne global Finland And I'm still practicing to say that because we just recently rebranded so Ficcolo Was the name that we were using until recently since about 10 years ago So we are based out of Finland and we're recently acquired and now we have a northern European platform. So we've got A data center in London data center in Iceland and three data centers in Finland all under the verne global brand and That's Where we're going to build a more shall we say sustainable platform for the Nordics And I'm I'm passionate about the sustainability Because this is this is what we've kind of started to do and and it's I've kind of grown into it shall we say 10 years ago, we started we decided to go all in on green energy and and We realized that this was a trend in the in the industry and It's it's exciting and fun to be able to sort of Provide services that that the customers are excited about And also investors Because I see that often it's investors on the industry. That's even more excited and then the customers. They really like it So so they They give great positive feedback about it and it just feels upon itself That's terrific. Thank you Avery Hi Avery Bell. I'm with Kohler power. I'm an engineered solutions manager for Kohler So I handle data center accounts across the the country and across the globe I'm passionate about today's topic because while I've been in the industry for seven to eight years or so I'm still a pretty young person in our industry And ultimately there will be a lot of people that that leave our industry or H out and I'll still be in it So I don't want to be the one holding an empty bag of promises that other people are Making but potentially aren't delivering. So I want to ensure that I'm part of the solutions to drive the change Thank you Avery last but not least Patrick Hey, thank you for having me Patrick in Grosso with the MCFI mission critical facilities international responsible for their Modular portfolio whether excuse me whether it's our modular data center solution that we've developed or our small microgrid solution use of fuel cells and solar All of our solutions are really being developed around what's more socially responsible for Whether it's energy offsets or whether it's using low-carbon steel or recycled steel and low-carbon Cement and other materials to really drive down the the carbon footprint I think my journey through sustainability is a personal one I started and really got into and really was made aware of what green was when green wasn't cool back in the early 2000s developing fuel cell projects for UTC power Trying to sell the Story of green when nobody would buy it And then later it kind of developed into something more passionate when I was doing stuff with my daughter with white guides and One of my favorite sayings with with that was always leaving the place you visit like a campsite in a better condition than when you found it And I think that applies to the the the global community because we're only here visiting right so Really want to leave it a better place than where we found it Well said well said and Actually, I'm gonna stick with you Patrick for just a moment and pose the first question on the panel if you'd like Great great. Well as we begin here, obviously you just hit on it But we're definitely seeing a growing trend of data center companies actually creating ESG sustainability departments even climate neutral service departments Why is that so important for the industry and what should these departments be focusing in on for the next five years? Yeah, I mean, I think it's being driven right now as People are trying to meet their ESG scores, frankly But the longer term need for it is the data center industry is becoming under fire because of its use of It's heavy use of energy and it's heavy use of water And the impact that we do make on the environment at a local level and and frankly What things people see needs to start thinking about is how do you reduce? Your energy dependence on the grid right the grid has been a challenge for a lot of people lately You've heard about a lot of the county you've heard about the challenges in in Dublin and Frankfurt and elsewhere So a is how do you minimize and reduce your dependence on the grid? second is you know, I think implementing sustainable building practices as part as also in line with what I talked about earlier and Reducing your carbon your footprint and not only just on an ongoing basis But in the early stages and as part of that value cycle so creating and really embracing the Reduced carbon the value chain a sustainable value chain. I think is important and people need to understand that better and how do you do that? and then I think finally in order to show what you're doing, we really need to have it and implement and embrace a More verifiable carbon tracking solution right and system that once you start tracking it and met be imagined on it You start to reduce and you can you can do a better job of understanding where where your challenges are and how do you meet those challenges? That makes sense Well, let me follow up with that question And West let me pose this to you. So obviously data center demands are at an all-time high I'd like to get in a better idea about your company and other companies you're aware of and what their Strategies are for the conservation. What resources do these data centers need to be focusing in on here in the future? Yeah, I mean so we have a slight advantage in the you know, we're a start-up In the last you know couple of years. So we're starting from really a fresh Clean slate So it's not true of everything, but if you look back back to Patrick's comments if you look back at ESG and I Mean look at the industry the internet's 32 33 years old You started out in closets floors You know rooms then buildings now campuses So our impact on Environmental conditions is much greater than it was years ago And if compute grows at the rate that I think we all are being prepared for You know, we have to get more conscious about it on our side, you know, we've developed water-free cooling So we've been doing this from the beginning so because we start out in the west where there are serious droughts and Population growth we have developed a water-free cooling system So it's dry-cooled it uses no water and it still achieves Well in the evenings of 1.1 On probably the hottest days of the year maybe 1.3 So it's highly efficient and it can be done you know most homes today are on central air systems and They don't use water So, you know, if you think about our system, I mean, it's very complex, but and simple but it really It's it's like the central air system on steroids So the water use for us has been a real focus and so is renewable energy But I have to you know, quote their quotes on that Renewable energy for us. We really prefer to do it locally with local programs Because it's really the communities the local communities, of course, there's a global impact But where we can make the biggest difference are the cities and communities that we develop So we highly influence renewable programs locally We don't do people is But we do local rats and if we have to national reps at the local reps aren't available But, you know, those are really crime pieces for us and I would say building design You know our 150 plus exterior walls, you know hot and cold spots We use robots to aerial drones to use LiDAR to detect hot and cold spots So for us, it's really holistic from Building design to you actual operation to the data center But but I really think it can be done, but it is largely impacted more on New designs than it is to go back and fix legacy designs Great Well, let me pose my next question to Kim. I Would like to get a feel from you in terms of how you and your organization are reusing access Wasted heat in the heating grid and how are you getting there to achieve that zero carbon footprint? Yeah, so here in the Nordics We do have district heating grids. So so this is about Shall we say the ecosystem that? Data centers need to kind of plug into I think this is true in many other areas relating to energy, you know, such as if you're talking about Using hydrogen for instance, you need the ecosystem out there, but specifically for the district heating You you can of course Reuse heat when you've got a data center outside the grid Say far away from from cities But then you you typically have to build it out yourself. So so you use the excess heat to heat buildings or whatever So we put our data center or we acquire the data center where there was already a pipe For district heating running right outside. So we only had to implement, you know 50 meters or a hundred meters of pipe and We also use Air cooling so so it's a hundred percent free air cooling So there's no water involved in the actual cooling process But then we have heat exchangers that turn that excess heat To to water and and that's water. We feed back to the district heating grid And you can you can also do that in two different directions So you can put it kind of in the hot direction and in the cold direction and and the point of putting it in the cold direction might be that if You're not heating it up enough to put it in the hot direction because the challenge for us is that we need to heat up the the water to About a hundred degrees Centigrade so so we need to prime it first and it takes some some electricity Now as for the climate neutral part We already did climate neutral certification without this in place actually and this we did By by minimizing our footprint of course using using green energy is the most important part but then Just simply offsetting the remaining footprint and doing this we actually got a climate neutral certification But our kind of thought process is going beyond climate neutral and the district heating actually allows us to to do that because Currently the district heating company Utility is using some fossil fuel To heat the water Now because we're buying a hundred percent green energy and we're feeding the excess heat back into the grid We're actually offsetting Some of the fuel of the fossil fuels that they are using So that kind of gives us in a way a positive footprint There's no standard for that yet, but you you have to sort of calculate it yourself if you want to actually put the numbers down But but I think This really highlights the role of of data centers in the ecosystem and increasingly becoming a producer Shall we say of energy? once we get to a point where we Also use hydrogen If the power plant for the hydrogen is nearby they could also have excess heat Which you could then combine with the data center For an additional benefit Yeah, that's fascinating and you're right a record setter as well, right? You need to set the tone for everyone else A-free any additional comments on this? No, I was just going to mention sort of what what Kim was Referring to there with you know combined heat and power systems. I think in a future state as Patrick's was talking about how we can try to reduce our dependency on the grid Hopefully there's more opportunity for us to use gaseous engines potentially localized to the data center You know in the near term, maybe that's natural gas in the future Hopefully we're able to leverage a green hydrogen source again potentially localized But leveraging that heat in a way that can actually be used for cooling Is an important aspect also of the data center vision for the future? So some do that today, but I'm hopeful that there is further adoption in the future Yeah, I definitely think you know, I like to see more On-site generation being done. I think there's still a lot of unknowns or Education to be done within users Distributed generation through some studies I've seen can actually help you offset some capital costs by doing on-site generation You can actually offset and reduce some capital with regards to diesel generators So you can reduce or eliminate diesel generators, which is an additional benefit as well as batteries and fuel and whatnot So whether you do it with a gaseous engine or engine that runs on hydrogen or fuel cell There are definitely opportunities on-site generation that reduces that dependence on the grid Thank you Interesting let me change gears a little bit. I mean everything that you all are speaking of Innovative to say the least and it leads me to a question about an area not everyone's familiar with but the greened the green bond market when I was prepping for today I Read up and found out it's valued over a seven hundred billion dollars right now And it's just continuing to gain traction for issuers and investors Kim I'd love to call on you and maybe you can first start by defining what a green bond is and Maybe elaborate on the shades of green out there and then I'm gonna ask you a follow-up question to them sure So a couple of years ago when we were looking for financing we went to the banks and Looking at different alternatives and and then we realized that a bond Sounds like a good idea in our industry because because it's a bullet. So so it works well when you're a growing company In conjunction with this We decided that because we have a good green track record. We would try to go for a green bond and The way it works is that you need a second opinion. So you've got these second opinion providers out there Who then? Go through, you know what you've done and and in our case they really liked You know the fact that we'd been using green energy We've also got our own power plant on top of one of the data centers So they loved the fact that we were adding to the supply and then We also Like to do sale and lease backs So we acquired for instance Fujitsu's main data center in the Nordics and leased that back So they really liked the fact that we were using Existing buildings so you don't have to construct new buildings for instance and so on So all of these criteria in addition to heat reuse is what they look at and based on these criteria in addition to for instance your governance and And you know stuff like do you do you think about the? sustainability aspect in all of the projects They then Sort of categorize you so so these guys for instance Cicero is A Norwegian climate research Institute, so they have a subsidiary that only does these second opinions, so they grade the bombs You can be light green medium green or dark green and thanks to all of these Things that we were doing in this area We we got the best dark green rating and that was actually a first in the world So pretty happy about that there's other Green-born rating providers out there who then have different sets of criteria but Yeah, I think the value of that is really For the customers it doesn't matter so much, but of course we're in an industry that's really driven by capital So those guys in the in that industry they they really love getting a green-born, so it makes a lot of sense and When you do it you you have to of course commit to some goals, so so you've also got a process So that's how it kind of drives you To enhance further in that area, so it does play an important role In the same way that that all of the investors in the area that are looking for more and more green Investments does that's interesting congratulations on the dark green reading West anything you'd like to add Yeah, I mean I think that what Kim is saying is It's really true about It's not it's not just so much to be green, but you're doing it with like-minded investors and That's oftentimes the most difficult part of this business is getting people that are in the same group that have a long term view and They share your same passion over design build and then operations So I think there's that as well, but I would say that like in our case We would do it regardless of the green bonds if they weren't if they weren't available out there But but we love it, right? It's it's a Tuss, it's a competitive advantage generally these are at a lower rate But but we love the green bond market I mean, I don't see any downside to it. That makes sense to me Well, let me turn over to Avery and I'm gonna change gears one more time And I'd love for you to talk a little bit about reducing Data center energy losses when it comes to PDU's power distribution units How are you monitoring those energy losses and how do you switch track PDU's play a part in the process? Sure, I'd be happy to answer that one. I'll I'll give you the caveat that again I'm the the power guy or the generator guy So most of my experience in this space cam comes from a previous life when I was with vertive Doing some audits and such with customers. So the the biggest use case that I see for a Wreck Wreck PDU that switched or or metered on the outlet level is is truly to identify the Wasted watts so the most I've heard it said the the most efficient what you can use in the data center is the one that's never used So a problem that sort of plagues data centers today is zombie servers So the servers that sit in racks that never get used but sit idle doing absolutely nothing so rack PDU's that have the the granularity that can correlate to the IP address of the the compute can help us drive to better understand what's being used and what's not and Similarly, I think we could take it a step further in a more theoretical approach to say that Within all of this compute there is Code right there's there's kernels. There's Development and within that code there's efficient use of compute and then inefficient use So I think a good example of this is wearables so I have friends that work at at Garmin, I'm not wearing a garment, but They they work at Garmin and they're responsible for the software that Drives these devices and part of the goal is to optimize and ensure that They're not wasting or absorbing too much of the power that's Reserved in this battery. It's finite and I think part of the paradigm that we have to sort of shift within our philosophy of data centers is that that power isn't Infinite it is in some ways finite so getting as far down to the granular level of understanding how software and Computers can be more efficient. So partnering as CPUs to Advance with the development of software to be more efficient with their watts So I don't know if the metric of of flops per kilowatt hour is the future But some mechanism that allows us to better trend and right now without a Rack PDU that has the granularity to drive into the specific watts per each one of these devices You're you're not gonna get that sort of detail and I think it's again sort of a future state I know DC I am allows us to identify those zombie servers and hopefully you have the the courage to unplug the things You're not using but again in the future. I hope we can find ways to be more efficient with with compute Interesting take on that Great, well, let me go to the next question I'd like to hear from well, I'll start with Patrick, but I'd love to hear from all of you on this one What are your top three three four recommendations? In order to keep hot data center aisles cool Yeah, so so I don't know if it's it's keeping it cool But at the end of the day reducing the amount of energy you use and Is is increasing the the temperature the cold out temperature of the data center, right? Facebook just announced that I think was Facebook announced that they're doing 90 degrees inlet air You know matching up with what TC 9.9 Ashray the Ashway group has been saying for a while of increasing that that temperature So that you kind of get towards an equilibrium and you're not using as much Energy to to cool or remove the heat from the data center. So to me, that's number one number two what I see a lot of that needs Probably a better best practice around is airflow management We just don't see I don't know if data center owners do enough around Managing that airflow between the hot aisle and the cold aisle and doing the air dampening and the air damming and and make it Sure that their IT people do the right things so that you don't have that hot I'll mix them back into the cold or the hot air mixing back into the cold And then finally if you really want to Drive efficiency and reduce the heat of the hot aisle you can eliminate it all together by using things like on chip cooling Immersion cooling and rear door heat exchangers. They've been around a long time IBM's used them for years water cooling in the data center I know, you know, there's a lot of discussion around Water and reducing our eliminating the use of water in the data center But the reality is water is the best medium for me for and I'll say removing heat not cooling because ultimately what you're trying To do is remove the heat from the data center, right? And the reason you're cooling is because the heats they're generated by the IT So if you can get closer to that IT load Remove the heat before it gets in the day, so then you don't have a hot out problem, right? You don't have a cold out problem You just got to know as many and so what you can do is close water cool it close water loop so you're not Using water for say finite amount of water in it's recirculate constantly So there's no there's no real water usage other than the framer just filling it up and then just using that solution to remove the heat from the data center is To me the best way to Lower or even remove that hot-out challenge Anyone else Go ahead. Let's sorry. I'm just gonna say containment pressure air leaks, you know blinking panels just really Block and tackling and like Patrick's higher Higher higher set points, right? I mean the old days Somebody would walk in the data center and say it wasn't cold enough just Based on their temperature So, you know higher set points make a huge difference to the data center and like Patrick said It's not so much the cooling. It's removing the heat. So if you can seal it up, you know Makes a huge difference. Sorry every year. We're gonna say something Why I was going to say almost the same thing. I mean containment is definitively number one There's so many times where you go by a server and there's an empty like our two RU that's just All of that cool air is pushing itself back and just being completely wasted. It's completely inefficient But I guess I would also say that within the cold aisle another strategy that I've seen implemented for furthering the efficiency there is Proper load balancing. So a problem is also those hot spots, right? Where there's workloads that are just generating so much heat in one spot that the cooling for standard cooling is Overloading and working itself into that space. So if you can further spread those workloads out to where you're you're Creating that bathtub effect within that containment and instead of driving a hot spot I think that's that's the simple elegant solution if you don't have the the capital or the this infrastructure today to move to Liquid cooling immersion cooling and things of that nature Let me go to the next question If you had unlimited data center resources and limited budgets and funds at your disposal I'd love to hear what the ideal air flow management plan would be Patrick you hinted on it in the prior answer here But now with that unlimited opportunity, I'd love to hear from all of you West. Maybe I'll begin with you But what would that look like? Well, we've hit a lot of it that water-free or at least lower water usage Even in areas where water is abundant, you know, generally that water is still coming from a treated culinary source The refuse is going back to great water. You know, oftentimes the treatment of that water Either means to be retreated or it has to go back to irrigation So, you know water no matter where it is is still a resource and as data centers Our job is to eliminate risk and why why create a 30-year data center? That's dependent on a resource like that. So for us, it's big big on water free higher set points and You know, we push clients all the time to To maybe start discriminating data and what I mean by that is that for the most part all of our clients treat all of their data the same n plus one two and designs and it's I just think that with the amount of compute we're talking about if our chairs are connected The seats in our cars the wallets everything is connected. You could go from 50 to 300 devices Per person and the amount of compute is probably going to explode And I'm not sure that a five-year-old photo. They got access once Needs to be in a five nine Data center. I mean it costs me a lot of money to build Per megawatt, but it's not just the money It's the amount of equipment the carbon footprint going into the equipment to build generators UPS You name it, but I really think if we could Advance our Bifurcate the data and start to really Discriminate compute of what needs to be in or in battery Or n plus one and really decide mission critical hot actionable cold I mean I could go on about this forever, but I would really prefer not to build these monolithic Data centers, I mean I feel like there are different things that we can do Like natural gas co-jam at site we could eliminate You know with scrubbers right to clean the methane that we could eliminate generators and UPS But but the clients need to get on board with that and and I think that's a big change that Whether we want it or not will probably come around because the amount of competing is going to grow Quasar I agree with you You know years ago. We looked at even trying to talk to people to data owners about when do you do the? Certain workloads right does it make sense to run batch a batch workload in the middle of the day when you can do it at Night when the cost of electricity is is is you know a lot cheaper So nobody want nobody wants to it takes some time and effort to do that But I do think that there are strategies that you can to your point Analyze your workload analyze what you're doing about does it make sense to do it in the middle of the day or Is it make is it better sense to do it at a later time when it costs electricity is cheaper or there's less impact But also to your point we are starting to see We are starting to see and we're working with a company right now That's looking at I'll call it deep storage where you can store data off in the middle of nowhere that you only access every so often and I see that as a need over the next 10 20 years because we are collecting and being forced to collect more and more data Through because of IOT and because of all everybody's camera and you know You got to store that data you can't throw it away because if something were to happen five years from now Oh, I need to get that data and you don't have it right so you got to store it somewhere So I see that deep storage Concept really coming into play to your point of getting it off of a five nines Solution and put it at somewhere That's what that's safe and can be accessed at a later date Yeah, I Absolutely agree with what's being said, but but I'd like to you know Move further on on the point that Wes was making that it really comes from the customer because it's the customer that's requiring, you know the n plus one and very often it's it's non-negotiable and and you might not even you know have access to The right people at the customer when you're responding to an RFP or whatever. So how are you going to kind of Get your message to them that we're we're over engineering this we're we're putting too much Kind of UPS is and generators and what have you out there? So I think that can I think that gets answered by Charging them extra for this stuff at some point, right? So they're they're paying for this extra stuff that they have that they're using But be as you start tracking and monitoring people's carbon use You know what not only doing it at a data center level for the data center owner But for the clients that are using it so they can see their impact to your carbon footprint And how much they're contributing to it and let them start seeing that impact Yeah, that's the only way to make you can change right otherwise. It's just Yeah, I'm preferably you'd kind of put a cost to to the car So you should either a direct or or kind of at least show them Let them let them put the cost there themselves or or do the calculation and show them that if you do this This is how much more carbon we were using So so that all comes back to the to the data as well to to have data about everything how much carbon We're using and so Any other comments on that Well, Doral your question was around flow and all that But it all it is it's really circular that and and I think these everybody's hit it I mean it is cost its desire to maybe be more green and I think it'll just become a reality Hot cold aisle, whatever air flow the fact is compute is gonna grow Probably 10,000 acts over five to seven years. I think we're still very much in an infant stage and You know, I just don't think we can keep building these just like we have them it will require Greener strategies and that will require different compute strategies I Well, that was actually My last question to wrap up any final comments from any of you as we Head out to head out to our networking session. I just I think this is the right topic that is just getting more and more attention And let's hope it just continues and moves off of talking into action At some point people are have to realize that there's a cost to pay for The data we use And and how we're gonna mitigate it and it just doesn't come for free and it you know Like like a lot of things you said you have to pay more for it to make it happen. I Agree, I think it's the right topic at the right time And I think it's folks like you that are the trailblazers willing to talk about it and put the ideas forth They're gonna make it happen So I do want to thank you for your time and your your insights on these various topics today So again, a big thank you to West to Avery to Kim and to Patrick for joining us today and what I'd like to do is invite you to hold on because we're gonna move over into our live networking session and Go on over to to that section but before we do I just wanted to give you a quick reminder that we do have a next virtual round table it's coming up on December 8th and Maybe a sister topic to this it's going to be about infrastructure and sustainability Predictions for 2023 and we invite you all to join us on that conversation as well So anyway, this is a wrap I'd love to ask you to look for a playback on today's round table It'll be coming soon to JSA TV and to JSA podcast on YouTube iTunes iHeart Spotify and more in the meantime hold tight and we will see you on the other side for a virtual round table Thank you again to our amazing speakers today. Happy networking. Stay safe and have a great rest of your day