 Queensland State Archives for organising this amazing event and this very impressive exhibition just outside these doors but to have the people, some of the main players from this time here today, what an incredible privilege. So keep in mind that there will be an opportunity to ask some questions for the last portion of our time today so you might want to be your own little investigative journalist and take a few notes as you go along just to remind you is if one of our esteemed panel says something that you'd like to follow up on. So we had the fantastic introduction from the minister so I think I'd just like to get straight into hearing from our panel. Perhaps if I can start with you, Chris Masters, it struck me that the moonlight state was almost the story that never was in a way. You were a bit reticent to take this on to start with, weren't you? Would that be right to say? Well there'd been a lot of reporting on alleged police corruption in Queensland and I'd seen a lot of people retreat battered and bruised so you know at first I thought what's new, what's different but actually up the back there you've got Jim Slade and Christine Slade. They were the ones that made the difference. I went and spoke to them and when they told me their story I realised that this was about systemic corruption you know Jim had been offered a bribe by a superior so all these stories you hear about police officers being bribed sadly are not unusual but in this case there was an indication that there was an architecture to it that it was that we were looking at institutional corruption so but yeah you're right and my first reaction was oh no not Queensland corruption again. Not another Queensland crook story. They never work. What was it that really pushed over the line? You mentioned Jim Slade of course but because it's been said that you really pull together the links between the main players and the vice in the background. What enabled you to push this? Yeah it's a good point. You know the popular image of investigative journalism is that it's all about sources you know deep throats telling you things and you breathlessly rush off and report them whereas I don't think that's the actual truth of it. It's more about working it out and and pulling it all together and and forming the narrative so so that that's what that that three months exercise was all about joining the dots. It's amazing looking back now is it 30 years on what was some of your recollections particularly as you looked at these cabinet minutes did that bring back new memories for you? I still shake my head a bit you know because I didn't know about that of course at the time I thought you know I was absolutely lost and lonely and about to be fried because that's what tended to happen when you're a whistleblower you know the institutions close around you the power politics comes into play your witnesses get burned but I wasn't aware that I had a lot more supporters than I imagined you know I didn't know Mike I didn't know I didn't know that it sounds like we shared some similar views and I didn't know that there were so many other characters I think that the Beelki Peterson years were coming to an end I think his his reign was becoming untenable and whereas that was clear to me as a result of my work I didn't actually think that it was obviously clear to a great many other people as well and putting it all together seeing Four Corners mentioned in those cabinet minutes as well well that's good I mean journalists aren't really well regarded and but I think gosh if you know we're not there to do this stuff who will do it I think I'm proud to say the best thing about the moonlight state is it demonstrates not just the power of journalism but the value of it so to see my program still very proud of Four Corners mentioned as being instrumental in a landmark historic political event is is heartening and it was not an easy ride for for yourself or for as you mentioned the incredibly brave witnesses who came forward but can you tell us some of the the anecdotes you remember from putting together the moonlight state at the time and very late nights and it was a long haul wasn't it well can I trot out my tired joke there's not much but too funny about that experience and and still I still have mixed feelings about it it was a very unpleasant experience but you know I used to say so you'd see the Queensland police you know chewing on the gristle of corruption as I put it in the various Chinese restaurants around Roma Street you know they never paid for their meals of course and I would think to myself well if the AFP couldn't get them and the NCA couldn't get them the MSG might so it was a lot of late nights and I think I remember you saying in one of the state archives interviews too that it seemed to all change really hot it up once you started filming outside a certain Jack Herbert's house can you yeah well it was demoralizing too not just because of the nature of the work and being hearing the stories the pedigal stories from some of these women who worked in the brothels who it was like a Latter-day slave trade the demoralization of the of police officers who had been press ganged into a career of corruption you know they didn't want to be corrupt but that was the system it was it was forcing them to to work for the criminals that they were supposed to be arresting and the milieu was demoralizing today's news is tomorrow's wrappings people would say to me you know you you'll do more harm than good so that that that that made the process particularly difficult and of course the day after it aired that is in your memories too and and you went through your diary as part of this exhibition what do you remember that day I opened the diary to the day after the program went to air and it says I awake to the beating of my own heart and you know I've always had a bit of a blood pressure problem but boy it was it was at the peak then but you know I can remember going in to do an interview on the channel line today show whatever it's called and didn't know anything about the political reaction to the program but I remember saying it was kind of like a lament I just just wished just for once the government would take notice and do something about this this sort of stuff and and I think Bill Gunn was thinking much the same wasn't he and that's not what I would have known at the time and this is where events do overlap somewhat Michael Hearn of course I think in your interviews too you mentioned that Bill Gunn was aware of this story from the ABC perhaps for some time and had spoken to you about that is that correct to me oh yes yes he he knew that Chris's program was coming up and raised the issue in cabinet several times saying this is coming this is coming it's not going to be good and we're going to have to respond to it and there was a lot of oh you know it'll go away and he said it won't you know and so after several occasions of that sort of rhetoric going out there then then finally the program arrived and and what happened then was he had a belief that something had to be done about it he said so but he discovered I'm not sure how they did that the Belka Peterson was going to be over in Disney world or something looking at some issues relating to the expo which was coming up in five months time and so he phoned Bob Sparks Bob Sparks was president of the party at the time and he'd been there for a long time and he said I want to come see you so they decided that there would be a commission of inquiry in in response to it and and that they he spoke with Neville Harper Neville Harper had been attorney general and went on to do other things but Neville Harper came up with the name Tony Fitzgerald none of us had heard of him before but that's what had happened my role was quite outsiderish initially I'm an ag scientist I was minister for primary industries for three years I was then shuffled on to the industry technology and industry small business and technology and then the health and the environment to do which confronted the AIDS crisis so I mean I had a lot of things on my hands which which weren't the police and so but I had a role to play later as you know Mike did it surprise you how quickly Bill Gunn moved on that given well he had to he had to either do it or or not do it because the issue was Joe was away and that's the sort of thing he would do is deal with something when when the principal player's not there so so Gunn went out the next thing I knew was Gunn went out and announced that was going to happen it hadn't been agreed to by the cabinet and there was held a pair apparently amongst the telephones and I had to get back for the cabinet meeting Joe was urgently coming back I was up in Mackay on a hospital inspection and to get there from to Roma which is where the meeting was on it was not easy but I made it but I was late I arrived there at midnight anyway there was a lot of discussion I had a phone call from Robert Sparks asking me to support the the proposal he was phoning around everybody and then the meeting took place in Roma why Roma because Roma had a new town clerk there who went to school with me Peter Mackenzie and he had built a new civic centre there and he said we'll have a country cabinet here to celebrate that and so he didn't quite know what was going on at the time but there were there were scones and and cream and one thing or another no one had many of them that morning there was a lot of discussion going on I Sparks asked me would I inform Bill Gunn that I had his that he had my support I said I would did that and I did it and so the discussion went on around the cabinet table and there was some language uninviting of gutter children fighting about it but it was too late and so an executive council minute was circulated and the process began I was advised by Bill Gunn that he tried to stop it in the afternoon and that he that he'd had an executive council minute drafted cancelling it but I was not able to prove that but so it went on it it uh it was driven by by Bill Gunn who just simply was fed up telling lies about prostitution and all the other things and so he went ahead and then as soon as he could get the executive council minute from Roman to government house he did that not sure whether it flew back and then sent the uh the message up to the governor and signed it no and the rest is history when you look back at those cabinet minutes is that how you recall events as well Mike were there some aspects that you'd forgotten or yes those cabinet secretaries are very accurate very good people and not political players at all they were conscious of the fact that they were always recording important history and so that was all I'm not sure who's the the the guy out in Rome on this I think we might have been Stuart Tate who's a methodical very careful sort of bloke and he would be just getting it right that's what what he wrote cabinet minutes minutes about so did it surprise me no no it was always a rich tapestry being in the Belka Peterson cabinet yeah and events moved pretty quickly after that you mentioned of course Tony Fitzgerald how pivotal do you think that choice was to to head the inquiry well I think it was very important his appointment and I think he sat down realizing that there's a job to do and he was going to do it and my interactions with him found him just like that was it a good thing having someone that really no one had heard of there was a bit of skepticism at the time about his appointment well I think it was very good they did not want to have someone and another name was mentioned who was known to half the cabinet a fellow called Pratt whose name came up later in the dispatches before the inquiry but it was important I think I felt and feel now that someone who who just came on to a cold as it were it was the right thing and do you think that Neville Harper had a good clue that there was a lot more to Tony Fitzgerald than others realized I don't know I really I haven't it's not a discussion I've had with him but he came up with the name and and so that's how it was did he have would he have done it differently I don't think so I think he he was I think asked to select someone who could carry out a commission of inquiry into the police department that's where it started and do it well and I think he just said well he's a guy who he knew and and so it went on and of course the Fitzgerald inquiry would run for two years and hear from more than 300 witnesses did you think it would be that expansive at the start I didn't think about it actually I was still Minister for Health and dealing with that the AIDS crisis which was getting silly about the day but it didn't occur to me how long it had go except someone said to me look these things always go longer than you think and you won't be able to stop it once it gets going particularly if it's on the things and you just have to see it out and that's what that's what had happened finally Tony Fitzgerald recommended that it conclude and he of course asked for permission from you to extend the terms of reference at one point as well yeah I think this was one of the most important decisions that have been made in recent times was the decision by Tony Fitzgerald to come to me to ask for the extension of the terms of reference this was a dynamite sort of request because I said why and he said because there are people down in in the affected group who are going down to New South Wales to get barristers from down there to come up and lay the argument that this is a police inquiry and if you're not a police policeman we can't examine you about anything no matter what and he said I don't think what I've seen that you can restrict it to policemen and so I said what are you asking me to do he said I want you to extend it so that I have broad powers I said right so that's that's what you're saying is that you need broad powers to make whatever inquiry is unnecessary in the interest of the state he said yes that's what I am in the I haven't looked at the actual wording but in the parliament in those days you'd to do that you'd put in for other purposes or something like that in the thing anyway so I went to cabinet with an oral submission I knew if I had a written submission it would be circulated around all over the place and there'd be phone calls and the president of the party and this minister that minister someone else ringing up saying you can't do this you can't look out and this was never intended to be like that so I went to cabinet and I said Tony Fitzgerald has asked for this to happen you can either do it now or wait for all the noise to go out there and you have the newspapers telling you you have to do it because he's got good reasons good evidence that he wants to present so I said what are you going to do I recommend that we do it I didn't take up a piece of paper at all there was no notice given so I asked around the table starting with gun what do you think he said I think you got to do it and then I saw Harper I said Harper what do you think he said I think you got to do it I said I don't think you got it in your tent so if you're like I'll call Tony Fitzgerald to Southland telling it's on that's the history and so that brought politicians in there who didn't ever think that they'd be able to have to appear all anyone anyone at all who was of relevance in in the eyes of Tony Fitzgerald and so that was a dramatic thing to do had took it into a whole range of areas and if if you looked looked at it at all it went into all sorts of government departments as a fellow in the health department was writing at was handing out signed death certificates there was problems over in the the the Giles which was there I think 70% of them had criminal records of the warders and there's all sorts of things going on everywhere you looked and Chris masses you were a bit surprised to find out you were under surveillance as well it kind of comes with the business although you know you don't you where this when where the storytellers not the story you know I I paranoia only takes hold when it has some real cause hopefully but yeah that they're when you said before that there was a critical moment and that that obviously was when they realized that we'd made the connection between the underworld and the crooked police hierarchy via the jack pervert property he was the the middle man the joker and when our cameras were sighted outside his house they kind of knew the gig was up and that's that's recorded in Lewis's diary and that's that's also important you know investigative journalism ought to be about evidence and this was irrefutable evidence the connection between the underworld and and the cops and I think probably made the biggest difference but after that the we started getting followed everywhere and I can remember one occasion making a stuff up navigation wise as I was turning on to the to the freeway there right along the river you know and as I turned in I thought oh god I've gone the wrong way and I wondered whether I should I could possibly back up and and I looked in the rear view mirror and there's these beefy cops sitting in this car behind me that was a bit of anti-surveillance exercise that I sort of naturally came up with but yeah there were there were other occasions they they the federal police actually warned me you know that they I didn't know until the last 12 months that that my connection with the federal police wasn't so much forged by me but but by them and they were actually looking out for me because they knew that the stakes were very high and they were too you think about it this was a billion dollar illicit empire there were people who were going to go to jail you know people like the police commissioner if if if they'd have known what was coming you could imagine what they would have done and so the the feds were somewhat aware of that and they started to look out for me and in a sense I think that looking back on it was all about just by them having a visible protection presence they were in a way protecting me the Queensland cops knew they couldn't do anything to to extreme with the feds looking on but but they were they were they and they warned me that that you know my room had been searched and that my phone had been tapped so I used to write these rubbish notes on on the on the little notepads in the hotel room and then I'd tear off the the top so that I left the imprint there just just to confuse them and of course in the background to this as well Dr Ila Keto was the the battle for the wet tropics has how has this been looking at those cabinet minutes and knowing the battle that went into gaining the world heritage listing for that area and your formation of the the rainforest conservation society to ensure that as well yes I just initially that time of the the four corners program couldn't help think back to about over 10 years earlier when Ray Wittrod actually was he he wanted an inquiry into the you know the bashing police bashing of the one of the protesters university protesters and Joseph there wouldn't be an inquiry but it Ray Wittrod was supported by his minister at the time and so the inquiry did go ahead and it reported back later that year and the day that he announced that there would be action taken against specific police officers he announced that he was resigned because he could no longer cope with the interference from Joe and others in cabinet basically constituting you know a huge breach in that separation of powers between the judiciary and the police force and you know and the executive arm of government and he could no longer countens that and and that the state was heading towards a police state and he had recommended he had because Lewis was going to replace the then replace him he'd warned that he was corrupt so it's interesting that it took over 10 years for for you know that to play out and I suppose you know just looking over that longer period from the 1960s through the 70s there was emerging a a sort of greater environmental awareness particularly from well nationally and internationally and not just not just environmental awareness but there seemed to be a sort of collision between old power and new power and new power which is sort of more based on egalitarianism transparency you know openness etc and it whereas we came out of my husband and I came out of academia we believed very naively that you know that facts would make a difference and we felt that we were apolitical and that if you really believed that something was right and you had the facts behind you that that that would be convincing but it was very hard to you know our instinct is to negotiate with whoever is in power but given the history you know going back through the student the student unrest at Queensland University where we were and participating in the spring block you know demonstrations being thrown over the cliffs at Tau Mill seeing you know seeing the difficulties the the repression of anyone who really tried to speak out it was going to be difficult but we felt that that was our major contribution was to bring science to the issue so it was a rather ironical that reading the cabinet minutes they're particularly in 1987 there's extensive documentation about how you know the nomination was totally flawed and based on poor evidence despite us having you know the support and assistance of scientists around the world and and I might add many of the scientists that the state government was relying on to refute the nomination yes you mentioned that that on your reading of the cabinet minutes you really felt there was that ulterior motivation of protecting the government from change sort of very much just under the surface there throughout well my naive conclusion was that that really overlying all of this was right through from the early 80s and perhaps earlier than that with you know the going back to the Whitland government the emergence of the importance of world heritage the legislation that you know like the world heritage profits conservation act the composition of the high court and the rulings of the court on on the Franklin dam was starting to look as though it seemed as though state rights was becoming a big issue and so it's not surprising that Joe I think who had an extraordinary obsession with retaining power at whatever cost would fight very much against you know to preserve state rights but I also noticed in in those minutes that they saw the agitation within the community particularly given that it had been so you know successful at a national basis with the opposition to the Franklin dam that this would just be the thin edge of the wedge the next thing would be the you know would be Morton island and Fraser island and you know a whole lot of other issues which actually did turn out to be true so it was um you know shut the door now or never but also I think there was a there was I felt an inordinate focus on on development particularly sort of in the agricultural mining sector which is a little bit surprising given that at the opening of the 1980 uh conference in Keynes it was a world wilderness conference and Joe spoke at that and he he discussed the in in glowing to him is the significance of the wet tropical rainforest as a literally a an unparalleled you know living museum that had to be protected so there were those like companies but all intersecting at the time and I remember you saying that you felt at that time really conservation ended up with what was left from all the extractive industries really has that changed now and looking back do you think oh look I think that protection of the environment wherever you are in the world has always been a struggle I think that there is undoubtedly irrefutably that tension between conservation and development and the lack of realization that you know nature's space is ours and that we have to protect the whole environment globally otherwise you know societies and economies in the long term won't survive and I think we're seeing that with the you know the prospect of uh and dramatic impacts of climate change and so yes I do think that it was it was always a struggle and you tended to be left with the best of the last after everyone and they tended to be in areas that were inaccessible for development is there a danger as time goes on that people forget the battle that that it took to get wet tropics I imagine many young people probably think that it's just always been a world heritage listed area when in fact it was a 10 year tussle really between the federal government and and the state government and and environmentalists wasn't there's no such thing as as forever you know it's uh I think things come in in cycles and that you um you know that that whatever gains you had in the future will again be threatened which is why it's so important that you know community awareness is is maintained so that people do appreciate the proper role of the environment in one's lives I don't think there's anyone here who if they visit natural areas isn't somehow affected and in their hearts would believe they need to be protected but there does end up being some you know sort of immediate choices because it requires two types of thinking one is the here and now which is about you know money for school you know being able to support yourself as opposed to thinking in the very long term that relational thinking that that makes you aware like in you know when considering the tragedy of the commons that um one has to one has to think about the greater good in the longer term and sometimes that does mean that you have what appear to be sacrifices so um yes I don't I don't think I think there's always a danger that will become complacent and I think particularly today I think it's becoming even more difficult because what what seems to be failing is the the traditional deliberative analytical media that that actually you could rely on um for alerting you to issues with the you know fundamental facts supporting that and I think it has become very superficial there's a greater reliance on social media and social media for all its benefits it also has downsides which means that people often there are very large numbers of people that just um hear what they want to hear and operate in a bubble and are easily manipulated as the recent example of what was it the Cambridge Analytica yes and and now I think emerging some of the aspects of um you know Facebook and um how there's been complicit sort of interactions in use of private data um from vulnerable people who don't actually avail themselves of facts so I think there is a danger uh for all of this and I think it is interesting seeing all of those strings draw together and to get a full picture of that background and to remind ourselves that anniversary is like this exactly how how intricate it was I you mentioned the the protests at the time it's certainly something I remember even as a teenager and just felt like there were protests constantly that there was this air of um weariness I think of of being in public with any sort of radical view that it was a really quite a big political choice um um Mike for you you also it reminds me of one time you mentioned again in your interview about coming into conflict with Joe regarding your work in the AIDS sphere over the condom vending machines I believe at the universities could you tell us a little bit about that yeah certainly the uh I was appointed minister for health and environment in 1986 and by that time the AIDS epidemic was just starting to arrive and uh so the health department spoke to me about the difficulties that that this was going to present there was a national AIDS task force they wanted us to be part of it and uh that there was potentially a very large problem in the indigenous population and that uh that they would be decimated unless something constructive was done and so I uh with my science background I suppose I knew what was going on and I I went 100 full on with the requests that were made and it which meant uh a fair bit of conflict it did around the world incidentally because it was some somehow a moral issue somehow other people invented it apart from public health measure they which it was they saw it as some something of a moral issue a biblical issue and so on and so it was but it wasn't an issue for me I just had no problems with it at all and we went I went ahead to do whatever had to be done we went to the national AIDS task force I was a member of one of their committees and Dr Ken Donald was appointed to be part of that and so we went ahead and did what we had to do but we were I was regularly reminded by Belka Peterson that he said your job's easy he said you know what you have to do nothing and I said oh that that won't do me and he said well oh so anyway we went ahead and from time to time he'd have a go at me and uh he really hated the condom vending machine you know there's a couple of them out there at the university and the courier male I think had identified these things there and Joe said to me what are you going to do about it and I said uh nothing and he said if they're not down by five o'clock today you won't be there tomorrow so I had to think as to whether that was what I needed to be kicked out of the ministry for was whether it was important enough whether it was going to be good publicity bad publicity a joke or whatever and I said no okay they'll come down so I said to the director general I want you to get a couple of policemen who are very tall awkward overweight and I want them to go down to the mitre 10 and buy crowbars no none of this five foot business I want six foot crowbars you said I think I've got your message so so these blokes went out to the university there and and it went the the story of this and the absolute theater of the absurd which it was went all over the world it was a feature on CNN so he left me alone for a while but there were some other things came up from time to time one on one occasion he said to me Mike do you realize the Catholics hate you and being a Catholic I said I don't think that's right yes he said yes I said well why don't we go out and ask the public or the churches what they think well yes so I said are you sure yeah yeah yeah boy you'll get the shock of your life so I went out and we I announced this that we wanted the cabinet wanted the churches to stand up and say what they thought about the AIDS crisis and what we were doing about it and so the first one out there was the it was the first one oh the uniting church they've got a very good social ministry and I knew what their attitude would be strong support so the next ones were the Lutherans the Lutherans so they were strongly supportive too and then and there was the guy from the church the Anglican church a really lovely man he he came out in full robes cap everything to announce that they had thought about it and prayed about it and they decided that it was a public health measure measure and the minister had to do what he had to do and then came the Catholics Archbishop Frank Rush to this day I swear to you I didn't ring him I could have rung him I didn't have to I sort of thought this this will be all right and it was he just said the same and so the only people who voiced any concern on the other side were were at the Episcopal churches who were concerned but they needn't have been but at the end of it the I don't think we had any deaths amongst our indigenous people it was because of a lady called Graceland Smallwood who some of you know who was a really top of line nurse indigenous person and we got together with her that the department did and I think we saved enormous lives with with what we did there and elsewhere he was still dogging me about it and so what we did was we got sister Angela Mary sister Angela Mary used to run the Sisters of Mercy here in Queensland the Marta Hospital and she would go around the hospital there in a tin hat dare you disagree with her and so we said she'll do and so we gave we gave her the job of administration of the health matters so that whoever liked can take her on and she did a great job and she worked with people she worked with homosexual people drug users and those sorts of people and the results were excellent and there is there's a lot of opinion around that what we did here was not only do a good job but we were the best in the country we saved a lot of lives and it was a it was a victory for common sense but of course that wasn't the last time that Joe asked for your resignation was it Mike no yes there was there had been a a very serious matter relating to the world's tallest building which had created quite a bit of concern anyway there was a fellow who was a member for maybe this district Springwood Fraser and he he got to hear about the world's tallest building and believed that it was not an honest deal and so he stood up in the party room and called Joe corrupt hole and so he left Joe and never came back and so Fraser stood up on that occasion and later on then he decided if it couldn't get it through the party room couldn't get it through the parliament the Brisbane City Council didn't want to know about it so he would have to reorganize the cabinet put some people in who would be in agreement with anything he put up and and then pass it under his under some legislation he had there in the Coordinated Generals Department and so to do that he fairly had to get rid of five of us gun Austin myself mckechnie and months and then he was going to appoint some others who would be complicit and so we had to go I got to hear about it and when I went up to to see him he summoned me up there and he said Mike I want your resignation and through it through it then sign it I said you won't hey you can't have it he said why I said you don't get you a resignation without a reason what's the reason you said I don't have to give it to you I can do it without that I said well you can't have my resignation you can sack me that's okay you can do that but unless you give reasons adequate then then I won't resign but I said if you do that if you say that's what you're going to do keep your eye on the TV because I'm going to walk out of here now and I'm going to challenge you for the leadership of the party and he got eight votes and that was the turning point and he told you beforehand that he was the party that's right he said I said to him on the way out I said the national party won't be happy he said I am the national party and there was mention of the joke just before as well chris masters which made me think of of your work in this and exposing the joke when did the absolute expanse of that really hit you like even when the Fitzgerald inquire was ongoing did the tentacles of it surprise you or did you really have a pretty good idea by then no I can remember I can remember working it out and I can remember talking about it in detail I remember also meeting the Joker I had some extraordinary meetings subsequent to doing all this work one with flowby oki Peterson I've got a copy of her book at home with the pumpkin scone recipe and her signature in it she wasn't a big fan of Joe's business skills I can tell you but also with Jack Herbert an amazing meeting with him down on the Gold Coast his wife sort of glaring at me from from the kitchen but he was he hadn't really taken it personally and he told me you know in in great detail about how he used to go along to the police awards ceremonies and while they were getting their awards for being brave and honest coppers he'd give them their sling as well yeah so this show that you know none of these outcomes that we're talking about today were guaranteed they they really depended on specific individuals who were able to recognize windows of opportunity who were there and had the ability to think creatively like Mike and it's sort of you know tying in with that with you know the Fitzgerald inquiry just just how accidental some things are for example Joe was away in Disneyland I love the imagery and the so Gung was able to you know seize that opportunity but also at the time that Joe was overseas and this was just after he'd he'd announced Joe for PM if I'm correct is that about around about the same time earlier than earlier earlier 87 yes yes but but that came into it as well yes but but you know that that caused the the the federal at Queensland's national party members federally to break the coalition agreement so government was in disarray and so Bob Hawke was able to capitalize on this that disunity and call a snap election and Joe happened to be away at the time and wasn't able to register as a candidate for the election so he ended up pulling out and then there were these three cornered contests that meant that Hawke won won the unwinnable election because he was losing support there were so you know it does show how tenuous I guess and luck comes into things and being able to seize windows of opportunity so it does come down to remarkable people who see those windows I think we found out since that there was a the Australian federal police back in the late 70s was aware of the corruption business going on here and set about a couple of offices to investigate it and to catalog it all and they did that one of them is living on Bravey Island now I think or is it Redsley so he's still there and then can verify this but but he so he was given the job of collating all of this so back then it was all known and then it was made up file about that thick and then that was all sent up and handed to the slister general here in Queensland and the file sat on the desk there for a while it said it sent out all of these things which Tony Fitzgerald turned up were known by the Australian federal police before and presented in writing to the Queensland government and someone came in and put it all through the shredder well there used to be there were serious national drugs inquiries going on involving the national crime authority and the national crime authority investigators as soon as they engage with the Queensland police you know it would all die because you know they hid the evidence and just as Stuart the NCA director came up to have a personal briefing with the attorney general to try to fix this and that's when they knew in Canberra that that corruption didn't end with with Terry Lewis and as you mentioned to the role of ordinary Australians in this Chris that you were really struck by the circumstances of some of the people that you interviewed the the ordinaries of their very Australian existence but to be caught up in in that web yeah well you know I find it encouraging basically that the system worked I mean Mike stood up for decent values you know and that goes against party lines often and and I think good journalism is about good citizenship and I was proud to be joined in a citizenship exercise with Jim and Christine Slade who didn't like what had been happening to them and I I even give credit to those brothel keepers and drug dealers who took a great risk and stood up and gave evidence to the Fitzgerald inquiry expecting that they'd be thrashed for doing it but they showed good citizenship and some courage to 30 years on are you still amazed that that you can consistently are being asked questions about the moonlight state the the the fascination that people seem to have with this story yes because most of what we do is a feral and you you don't expect it to stick I actually do think that the the best journalism is the stuff that is remembered that goes into history and you know my mother was a great journalist and a very humble modest country town journalist but I just noticed over the years that people had come and talked to her about stories she'd written 20 30 years ago and I thought well you know that's better than getting any kind of award having your work remembered and for you too Eila the the I imagine that the army of ordinary people that were involved in in the battle for the for the wet tropics as well and for getting that absolutely essential I think in some ways you know that little trite saying that politicians are best at counting and accounting which meant counting votes is true and I think often they're not moved I think you know visionary politicians are few and far between and it often is about you know how do you stay in power and so you know public public support is is vital for for change no I think you know that's what that's what societies are supposed to be that we elect politicians to look after the issues that matter to us in a responsible way and I think what better society than one where we feel good about being alive we we feel good about our governments and we have some confidence in the future that you know matters are being you know addressed that need to be addressed so that's where the public in the end I think you know of all the the key substitutions that organize you know societies and that's you know your political you know infrastructure economic infrastructure and social which is the community and and you know the press and etc the most powerful in the end as revolutions tell us is that social pillar is there a danger of complacency now you mentioned in the interviews that you felt like a lot of the the rights that you'd fought for had really been wound back I don't know that it's complacency I think it's it's just a sign of the times that there are forces that keep people preoccupied with short term rather than being able to look at the long term and but things come in cycles I think you know there's a level of tolerance when things get so the pity is that we often have to have our backs against the wall before there's enough you know drive to change things that's the pity because when that's the case so much is lost in the process and Michael who can you see the change from Brisbane was always referred to as that big country town do you see the the change there looking back now as well yes certainly it it was a major change maker for Queensland and that was the way we saw it when my government came to power we said this is going to be the change process for us we'll do things differently and if it's Gerald process will be a lot about what we do to achieve that and so and we did it and and we got a fair bit done and it's been continued since then and the change process has been worthwhile and quite dramatic and it's ongoing and I just want to take the opportunity here where to say to Chris that it's a thankless task we all do from time to time and yours was probably in that category but I say to you unless you had done what you did it may not have happened is that something that you feel comfortable with now Chris you have mentioned in the past that the battles with litigation that came for so many years after the this very pivotal story the moonlight state but can you see now the the esteem that that your work and the work the the people that you interviewed has made now I don't quite know what to say you know I it's wonderful to hear that I really don't really can't take credit though I I mean I know I know I did my job you know I don't believe journalists thought to be that interested in the outcome frankly I think we can't have it both ways I love the Ellen Jones approach to imagining that they are the the the true power holders and that they that they it's their role to affect outcome when they're not elected I'm not not elected my job is to inform the public as best I can and hope the system works and all the programs I've done over the years even though at the time it was it seemed like the most discouraging looking back on it now there is considerable encouragement too because of because the system worked the fourth estate worked and you of course had to give evidence during Fitzgerald inquiry that was quite worrying for you at the time would that be well I well I I called it my death by a thousand courts not the Fitzgerald inquiry but the the litigation you know it's I sort of shake my head a bit to think that god they went after me you know 13 years in court imagine what it would have been like if I was actually wrong you know or is it that you get punished for being right well I think this may be a good time to throw to our wonderful audience hopefully we may have some questions from the insights that we've had today so we've got two roaming mics you could possibly oh we've got one roaming we do have a roaming mic of some description if you could possibly put your hand up and thank you and if you could address your question as well thank you question for Mike you mentioned taking a proposal to cabinet as an oral submission to fend off an ambush is that a standard practice because there were a number of controversial cabinet decisions that were oral submissions so I just wanted if you could talk a little bit about that the second thing is there were a number of decisions made whenever Joe was out of Queensland and they were always rescinded as soon as he returned why was this different was it just a case as you mentioned that Bill Gunn had just had enough of the lies what changed from the 70s the early 80s through to 87 that there were sufficient cabinet members who said we're not going to continue along this line the first one is I didn't I don't think I did it very often but this one I knew that if that I number one I had to do it because we'd have had it if once people started to say you can't examine me because you're not because I'm not a policeman there'll be such a fulfill about that that you'll eventually have to do it so you might as well get on with it early and so and the other cabinet members understood that that's the way that that's the way of the world with the particularly with these very nasty issues did I like to think I didn't do them so often but occasionally in life you've got to do what you've got to do and this had that desired effect this took the politicians into into the loop and it was it was probably the the most significant decision I've had to make because I knew what was coming as for Joe coming back and turning things around after he came back yes it was it was very interesting time today any other questions I hope so hi my questions for Chris are you concerned about the future of investigative journalism in this sort of era of post-truth politics yes I I am concerned I've always been concerned of course but it's the old business model of journalism has has failed and and we've got to find a new way to fund expensive journalism I mean as a freelancer for example if I commissioned to write a 4000 word piece for any newspaper the best they would pay me would be a dollar a word and they'll pay me the same amount a dollar a word whether I do no research or a lot of research so that's why the papers are full of you know profiles of pop stars and things that cost no no time research time at all and you know so you you're actually punished for doing research which is absurd I think they'll miss us when they're gone but it feels to me like it'll take a generational change for us to find a new way I don't I don't really see the answer in citizen journalism because the citizen just can't afford it I mean the moonlight state was made with enormous research assistance I had a producer I had a researcher who was a trained lawyer working with me we had a phalanx of lawyers looking after us and you know we had we faced up to millions of dollars of legal costs and I just can't see that happening anymore and I'm bothered by the the the digital age that seems to place the moron alongside the qualified commentator and so it's forcing people to become their own gatekeepers and work it out for themselves and I think that's happening I'll bet you it's happening with you I had a dinner last night with a young student and I was really surprised at how astute he was at being discriminating in his reading of the news and I think this is probably automatically happening with the younger generation they can they can smell bullshit just like a good investigative journalist and they're having to work it out for themselves but as I say they'll miss us when they're gone oh this is a comment I guess for my board and anything I was a student at Queensland Uni when the condom vending machines were posted up on the wall and being uni students are very creative and I noticed it above one and had the sign saying don't buy this chewing gum it's too tough so I thought well finally we've got it you know I'm thinking well maybe there's a hope for my sex life and then suddenly they'll pull down I thought well that's the end of that to the two gentlemen Terry Lewis how the hell did he ever get into the position he he obviously wasn't squeaky clean when he came in and there wasn't that much of a background check so was it the corrupt people that backed him what was his qualifications for the job as commissioner he was there to defend the status quo yeah he jumped from it he was about 160th in line wasn't he and Wittrod himself was appalled and said so publicly and I think Lewis was well he wasn't even a really good crook you know he was a pretty ordinary crook but and that they just wanted somebody who'd be compliant and he fitted the bill well yeah I'd like to say about that that the appointment was made back in the days of the coalition and they had somehow or other sought the view couple liberals had sought the view of Scotland Yard on Lewis and the word that came back from Scotland Yard was we've had a look at that bloke and he's corrupt don't appoint him it was not um deluded in any way it was blunt don't do it and um so why was he there I don't know it's it's just Fitzgerald and his report has made a very important recommendation about the appointment of a of a police commissioner to make sure that the person with best merit is appointed rather than just some bloke who was rolled into the job because the people wanted him the joke wanted him it wasn't accidental that they met out at Roma that was going on a long time before then there was a fellow called Murphy who was part of the joke he was lobbying for him all over the place four months before that and so his importance was it was very important to the business of the criminal gang Mike can I make a point you made then about the business and raise it between us sorry the business community as in you know the commercial business community how did they respond to life under the government under Joe and then Chris like post Joe I mean they can't all have been bad there must have been some interesting issues about ethics in the business community that were going on at the time what they think of me so what to say just in general what do you think what is your impression of how business dealt with the issue of government in those being conducted at the time well I think they try hard to get it right is my experience of them and I was Minister for Industry so I met them a lot and I think they're trying hard they don't want short cuts they don't like favourites and wide shoes and things like that they want a reasonable approach to things and to business policy because that was the problem was corruption it wasn't just a moral issue it was a practical issue as well and my sense was that the business community were becoming progressively outraged by the cronyism because what it meant at the end of the day was some unlovely crook from Singapore who could pull together five hundred thousand dollars was going to get a contract over and above people who really knew how to build something question for all three only because I like living dangerously on one of the people who accidentally saw some of the Fitzgerald inquiry documents that are held here and subsequently received a letter to say I can know cannot publish copy distribute the material I saw what I saw in that those documents made me think how much more is there in me and these are now closed as a result of an administrative decision I'd like to know if all three of you just your views would there be any purpose in keeping those closed because they still you know 30 years down the track tell us so much about Queensland society at that time and and so much about attitudes towards law and order it's interesting question I've I've heard of this before I don't know what's in those but that that was done on the recommendation of the commissioner so it would have been done for the reasons of personal safety or some issue like that of people making information available for the commissioner but concerned with their own safety or something like that and my view would be to respect all the commissioners recommendation I don't think there's anything in there that needs to be in the public domain unless unless what you've said changes that but that's where it came from didn't come from us we didn't see the information that came forward it's an awful lot of it wasn't there who are judges remember to do are judges there was one judge discharged that's been the subject of another hearing and the hearing has determined that that should be dismissed the visitor I'm very of course didn't uncover everything that the big level was going to be able to do I still give it enormous credit for doing what it did which was which was landmark in the time and I think seven new standard for for royal commissions you know I think there's prior to this Gerald the presumption was that if they had the government called a royal commission they expected they already understood the outcome whereas you look at the the banking royal commission today the child abuse one and I think the public's got a whole new regard for them and I think they've developed the expertise to I think that there is a time issue as indicated here that if there are missed you know and due to individuals there I think it should be just a matter of time because in the end openness and accountability is um fundamental for the health of you know democracy and society but there are things I ended up working very closely with you know bureaucracy within and politicians as well in the federal government and in the Queensland government but I I could not write a history currently talking about everything because of the vulnerability to some people who are still alive the danger is I'll lie before before they do but but there are lessons to be learned important lessons and the old nature of you know unless you hear history you're going to repeat it it's probably true so I'd agree with you that it's really important that there be even public access but in the appropriate time frame if it helps but um there's something else I was going to say I I think it was a shame um I think it was a decision of um the commissioner for state archives that led to the shredding of the special bonus files and I think that that was a pity pardon am i wrong it wasn't the archivists no um well there was a decision to to shred them and I think that was that was a big mistake um however that came about because um again the there are lessons to be learned and I don't know that some of them still survive but um I was just one box yes I was told that I was also followed and um was a subject of special branch but I never got to see my followers Chris it makes me think of one thing you mentioned about this royal commission and you said it's sort of set up the standards for royal commission since but before that there was a sense that royal commissions were only set up to look into things they already knew about but this this was different yeah yeah I think a new standard was set and um and it is problematic going possibly through those old files because a lot of the time what you're looking at is intelligence and information that's not provable evidence and so there are lots of reasons why there there ought to be checks and balances I just know about the special branch file I had a special branch file I have a look at it and and the only thing you could say about it was it was blithering incompetent I just wouldn't believe the error it was totally useless it was a stencil there to protect my own personal safety and that of my family it was totally useless oh thank you um this one is for Mr. Hone really myself Jenny Medges and Sue Horton had the privilege to read the minutes for the last couple of years and one of the things this year we weren't quite interested in is the minutes around Fitzgerald um but from memory there was about three or four cabinet minutes in total talking about Fitzgerald in cabinet which indicates to me that there must have been a hell of a lot of discussions going on outside of cabinet and maybe with select people have you got any views on that yeah so there must have been I looked there was not a lot of cabinet discussion because there was not need to be probably I was um I made myself minister because there was early on in my career as a premier there was so much leaking to the media going on on a daily basis that was not helpful to the work or whatever and it was just a big problem so I made myself the minister so that I could have some control over that and then so the commission can do the work with that I'm talking about the build-up to in age seven not after your so when the job appears and was still premier nothing it came to cabinet really apart from no well all that my recall it's 30 years it's getting hard but there wasn't much discussion except you know Bill Gunn would occasionally raise a matter and say listen this is this well as getting around a lot and he's got a lot of information he's going to produce a lot of people are going to be proven to be liars and it's going to be hard what are we going to do hand ring that's all to my knowledge as I said the decision to appoint the commission was made outside of cabinet he did that on the basis of the acting premier and could act on behalf of the cabinet yes well I've got a question for Mike I think you're you commented to Chris earlier it was quite poignant about his role in Sunshine State you're actually the second premier I've witnessed do that I sat next to Peter Beatty he did a similar thing with Chris and said how it changed the state for the better what's Chris the very humble man is do you think he gets the due recognition for his role perhaps will we see a chrismaster's freeway or something I really did have a troubled boredom maybe a tunnel or something I think he gets a lot of credit for it and then he may not think it's justified or something but it is it is it was the the thing that finally moved the ground Mr. Hearn you mentioned Murphy in a logo Tony Murphy I'm wondering if he might be one of the elements you were talking about Chris that perhaps that Fitzgerald Inquiry may never have done everything you know were there many other people who were so central to the joke who more pretty well got away with it well I mean I think actually Lewis was sort of subordinate to Murphy yeah and maybe a few others as well because they didn't want a too high profile you know running the show they needed somebody that would pass master and do what they were told but the rumors that swirled around Murphy were were pretty serious and and you know it's hard work it's hard work finding witnesses who have got the courage to actually give evidence that that can you know because lives are at risk so that that was always the whisper that Fitzgerald didn't go too far far enough didn't really go beyond Brisbane on the Gold Coast didn't really go into the drugs trade didn't really go into the history of murder you know I used to say that in Queensland we got a royal commission in Victoria they got a miniseries you know underbelly because you know that police sanctioned murder was a real matter of fact you know that that across Australia people forget just how extraordinary it was in the 1980s you think of Mick Drury the New South Wales police officer nursing a toddler in the kitchen and he gets shot down in Chatswood in Sydney I mean you know you'd think that sort of stuff would happen in Colombia from my own experience I was more than conscious on plenty of occasions of informants doing dirty deals with the cops and then the cops realising that they were a risk because they if they if a royal commission came along and gave them an indemnity they would give up the cops so they would leak information to rival criminals that so-and-so had been an informant of the cop and this bloke would get murdered and it was very very hard to prove who was behind it but you know the Hodgson family in Victoria under police protection executed in their kitchen you know I'm absolutely sure the police were behind that maybe this is a new comment but but maybe that's the skill of Tony Fitzgerald has to know where to set the limits because if the inquiry had been you know continued for a lot longer there had been a different result the politics have changed so I think I think that might be another aspect of not expecting to solve everything once. Can I say something about the Federal Narcotics Bureau which was abolished after a royal commission a Queenslander headed it up and that Federal Narcotics Bureau was waved up the person who did the inquiry as to whether it should be wound up did not travel down to Canberra to interview anyone and there were two people whose charges were ready to go to court on drugs charges called Hallihan and Moeke and when when the bureau was wound up there was no one to prosecute the cases that were lapsed. Probably a question to Chris that would appear from the cabinet minutes that the advice that the cabinet received was that there was no legal way of getting Jack Herbert back from Britain. If the joker didn't come back how far do you think Tony Fitzgerald would have got? A lot of others had also rolled over you know that was also unique about the Fitzgerald inquiry this indemnity process that I thought worked very well although you know he was seriously criticized for it and there are a lot of police officers to this day that wouldn't you know think it's outrageous that Jack Herbert wasn't jailed but yeah wouldn't got his father and he was okay with but I've always had a bit of a suspicion he could have said a bit more to I mean the condition of his indemnity was that if he didn't tell the full truth he would get a jail well there's a slippery character I think he managed his way through that. He wanted to come back he said he from from his room he could see the people that were walking up and down in black hats Tony Fitzgerald told me that there was a price on his head one dollar whoever did it wanted the advertising so he was bleeding to come home the question was how did you get him? I'm quite a student want to know about him so that was uh of course Jack went down in there and he was an impossible witness to be held in protection because he he he missed his family so much that he used to hang a big beach towel outside the unit where they had him holed up so his family could find him and go around looking for this beach towel and the cops had a lot of trouble figuring out how come the family kept finding him and kept him away from the phone and so on. Well this may be a good point I think to uh to wrap up and to to give the last word to our amazing guests could we perhaps hear from you what you feel the lasting legacy of this era was that we're looking back on today and the changes that we've seen since you know maybe stretching a bit too far but I sort of think that the Fitzgerald thing is a bit of the Eureka stockade for Queensland it was a catalyst for significant change and that's one of the big reasons why so I would agree and I think it's been most worthwhile there were a lot of prosecutions made a lot of changes put in place the opportunity was taken to make the most of the climate of change which was offered and I think it's been a great benefit and I wanted to just say to the people here from uh this august organization here that I would like you today to accept a gift from me which is Tanya Fitzgerald's personal copy to me hold the inquiry. What an important piece of history to having the archives thank you so much. It's been a great experience, such a great job. What about you? I love looking back. Well I think that era in a way it panned out made it easier for future environmental successes. I think there was a credibility established which made there was a respect from the media to some extent and I have to say that not long after the executive office of the pretend court came to came to me and said look we've been hiding to nowhere is there another way we can work together. So that brought in a new era of problem solving. We agreed to build trust and respect and share information on the street so that outcomes could be achieved that were mutually beneficial and to change things for the better. So I think that yes there were major changes that resulted from it. Can you please join me to thank our thank you so much for joining us today for some time we've been.