 Welcome to all of you. So glad you're here. It's another episode of The Nonprofit Show. And today we have one of my favorites, Sarah Groney. And she's joining us from Project Big Impact. She's gonna talk to us about assessing your NPO brand or your nonprofit brand. And she's got a lot to share about this. So stay with us as we dive deep into this conversation with Sarah. Before we do that, we'd like to remind you who we are. So hello to Julia. Julia Patrick, she's the CEO at the American Nonprofit Academy. She's invited me to be her tag along. I'm Jarrett Ransom, your nonprofit nerd, CEO of the Raven Group. And I love being a co-host alongside with you Julia, having these high level conversations day in, day out, Monday through Friday, since March of 2020. So we're coming up on nearly 800 episodes and we wouldn't be where we are today if it was not for our amazing partners. So thank you to our presenting partners. 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And without further ado, drum roll, I wanna introduce Sarah Groney back to the show you've been on before, Sarah, it's been a couple of months, maybe a year, time flies, but you are CEO graphic designer at Project Big Impact. Welcome back. Thank you for having me. Yeah, so excited to have you and here in the thought leader space to talk to us about assessing your nonprofit brand. Tell us a little bit before we dive into this, you know, to the crux of the conversation about yourself and about Project Big Impact. Yeah, I have a long background in working with, in as a program support person for nonprofits, mainly in the mental health developmental disability space and took a big leap out of that when I had my kids and became a creative consultant for nonprofits, starting with marketing and communication support. And then really just fell in love with branding and all things graphic design, supporting print and digital design to really drive emission forward. I love it. You know, you can have the most amazing programming and project and be doing the work of the angels, but we all know that if you don't have a strong presentation with all these elements, you don't get anywhere. I mean, it's really kind of one of those heartbreaking things. And so I'm really excited to talk to you about this because it's one of those things that I don't think nonprofits spend enough time with, assessing the nonprofit brand. And so I'd love to kick us off by asking you, why do this? Yeah, I think there's two really great reasons to do this. First, all of this work starts very internally, having your team aligned to what the mission is. I think it's so easy to get caught up in the day-to-day, the programming, the fundraising and this machine that just never stops and there's always work to be done. But to really take a step back and dig deep into why we're here, how you talk about your org, help your staff and your board talk about your organization in a way that's really aligned with your mission and also helps them align with how they're showing up to serve. If they know and have a clear picture of what the bigger vision for your organization is and how you talk about yourselves in marketing and in the world and how all these aspects of how we communicate what we're doing and all these really impactful programs, I think we create better ambassadors for our mission if we know our brand. That is so fascinating. And I have to say because this is what I feel to be true is we often as nonprofit leaders inherit the brand, right? It's like the logo was designed 30 years ago, the colors were picked 30 years ago, the tag on the mission statement. And so often we're working off of something that like many variations of leaders and team members, as you said, Sarah, inherited. So that to me is like, why not assess it for the current state, the current mission, the current, you know, everything going on? Have you seen that as well? I have. I think when organizations are founded, you just, you need a logo because you just need one and you need to get your name out there and something gets created maybe in like 30 years ago, like you said, in some old word doc or whatever that is. And now like you need a little more professional or you want a banner and you're realizing like, oh my gosh, this really gets super blurry and while we're at it, like we don't know how to recreate it or there's files have been passed down over years, decades. But even if it's a newer organization, where you started and where you are today may be really different than who you're reaching and how you're serving. And a lot of these visuals that we think of as a brand, we think, most of us go to think of visual, the logo and the typography and the colors that we use. And does it align and does it speak to who you are today? Yeah, right. So let's navigate then to that next piece of it because I love right off the bat, like just having the courageous conversation about internally assessing, but help us understand the difference between branding and brand. Cause I feel like Jared, these two things get flipped around and used improperly. Yeah. I mean, what, Sarah, help us understand that. Yeah. Like I said, a lot of organizations start out with, we just need to go to level up. We need the visual so that we're out in the world and we make a name for ourselves. And many of us skip over, not just nonprofits, but as business owners, we skip over the roots of what is supporting those visuals and what we're putting out into the world. So I think we need to look at our organization values, which are separate from our personal values. And I think a lot of founders that becomes really enmeshed and that's wonderful thing, but separating like, what is our organization value and what do we want our staff to emulate when we're doing that? Does that align with our mission and the reputation that we're seeking and the brand personality? Like are you a very corporate, top-down kind of educational organization? Are you like grassroots? Like those are both gonna have very different personalities. So you're reaching out in different ways. And then branding is all the visuals that help communicate and tell that story. We've all heard the picture tells a thousand words, but you need those words and those roots and the grit behind the photo to be able to tell the right story. You know, you speak about digital and we are such a digital age now and I cannot imagine shifting away from that. So when many of these organizations were formed, obviously the dot com era had not begun, the digital fundraising, the digital communication to the level that it is today, Sarah, was probably not even a conceived thought, right? And so how does brand and branding play into the digital space? Because as you just said, like a brand is your brand, but branding, what I understand is like, that's a continuous effort. So talk to us about how we can continue this effort of branding of our brand into this digital space. Yeah, so there's a lot of ways to communicate what your brand does outside of print now. It's in every touch point. I feel like it reaches so deep into what is your donation page? Does that look like your organization? When folks are donating, does it match the visuals? Building that trust, knowing that you are capable in building this brand, but then also if a donor's redirected to a donation page that looks totally different than your organization, like, oh, did I click on something wrong? Am I giving the right organization? It might stop people in their tracks or just the brand recognition. I like to think that people see and read and notice all the things we do all the time, the first time we put them out there, but I think it takes seven times noticing or reading something or hearing something about it. So having a really consistent brand, especially in this fast age of like scrolling through Instagram and TikTok, like you gotta be really recognizable. And to be recognizable, you have to have a very clear, kind of strict brand guidelines to say like, this is who we are, this is the font that we use, this is the visuals that we put out there. Exactly, you know, Sarah, I think you're speaking my love language because I think you have to deal with that. And I have recognized over the years that I think internally, we grow weary or tired of our own branding and we forget that we are seeing this from the minute we walk into the parking lot or we open up our laptop or whatever that we're seeing these messages, but to your point, with all of the stuff coming at us, the average donor investor or citizen or client, they're not seeing all that. I mean, so they have to be reminded and this has to be reinforced. And so it seems to me like there's a competing force there internally versus externally and kind of understanding what that looks like. And so that kind of leads me to the next question. And a point that you bring up is understanding that ideal audience. What does that mean? So to me, that means who are you speaking to? That's your donors and your funders and we're always asking for money, but how else are you telling your story and who you're telling that story to? Are you showing up and serving and providing some education to your community? Are you reaching out and have a really large volunteer team? All of those touchpoints outside of just talking to donors and these really important events and galas and things that we really focus on making just right on target for our brand, but like there's so many other parts of our brand that parts of our audience that we need to include in that brand recognition. And I think making it really easy for our team members to do that as well. So it's not just one person who's in charge, it's not the marketing team or the CEO who's in charge of like making sure that brand happens. Like they can set up good systems, but then giving your team the tools so that all the people that they're reaching out to and speaking with and doing peer-to-peer fundraisers like Arizona GiveStay is coming up here in Arizona and like how are they like just handheld them through that and give them the tools so that they can speak to your organization to their friends and family like it's far and wide. Sarah, you mentioned a couple of currently popular social media, right? And so I'm curious how we can understand our audience when it comes to different platforms. Can you talk to us about that and how like how we can best maintain our brand integrity if you will and integrity of our branding on various platforms that innately attract a different audience? Good question. That's a great question. Might be a curve ball, but I know it's knocking out of the park. No, I love that question. I love that question, Jared. I think that's really, it's a fundamental question. Yeah, I think so there's a lot of tools that are available that analytics behind it can give you a good guess on who is showing up for Instagram, what time of day they're showing up might give you a really good indication for who's like if they're around lunchtime, they're probably in the office working and scrolling Instagram on lunch. But if they're late at night, maybe they're, I don't know, a tired parent who just needs a little break and they're looking then. Like who is showing up on each platform might give you a better indication of what content would be served there. Like they all know LinkedIn is a little more professional, but I don't think a lot of organizations have really latched onto the TikTok trend, but there's a lot of opportunity there. Yeah, yeah. And then another question is, do our audience or audiences ever change? And I asked this because I was just at an organization where they said what used to be our audience was and they painted this picture of a certain demographic, but that's no longer our audience. We do have that, but we also have this other audience. So I'm curious if you can talk to us ever so slightly about your experience and what you're seeing with an audience shift. Yeah, I've seen that happen when there's like a new program that's being initiated or they're serving a new population or they're bringing in, maybe they have like a mastermind chat full of community members who are really specific and trying to solve a problem and that branding for that new, which is a very targeted intentional, like we wanna bring these people into the conversation to help us problem solve and to help us network and possibly provide some funding, but that branding for that new audience is gonna be a little bit different. It still needs to be tied, but it takes some creativity and how do you align that with your overall brand and maybe have an offshoot, maybe there's a really younger generation, there's like some mentors or something and like how do you make that a little more fun and a little more approachable and then still maintain the integrity of your overall brand. But if you make a really large shift and you notice like a majority of your audience is now shifted away from what it used to be, maybe think about it a full rebrand and reach out and communicate, freshen it up and change up some of your messaging also along with your brand, like the messaging, how you talk about your programs and how you bring people into that conversation and tell stories is really key as well. So before we touch on what I believe is probably our final key talking point for today. I'm curious when we talk about assessing our NPO brand or our nonprofit organization's brand, do you have a recommendation on how often we should assess it? Is this an annual six years, six months? Like, should we keep a finger on the pulse all the time? What is kind of the rule of thumb, if you will, Sarah, when it comes to assessing our brand? Yeah, I think a brand should last at least five years. I think if you aimed to over 10 knowing that these values and if it's really grounded in your mission and your values it's not gonna change unless your organization's mission changes. It really needs to be for the long haul. But a trendy brand that changes a little bit or there's a new campaign that's coming up that you try something out with might be a fun opportunity. It's not to say that you can't vary throughout the year. Maybe you have an annual campaign that's a little different or your Gala branding is a little bit different. But the heart of your brand should really be aimed for longevity and not something that's super trendy that needs to be changed year after year. Partly because your board's not gonna wanna pay for it every year. Right, yeah, it's not. You don't need to be spending money. It seems a little wasteful to continually change it. I agree. I have to say, Julia and I'm curious if you hear this as well. Many strategic plans that I have facilitated often their brand comes up. Brand, marketing, communication. And I'm curious from a board's perspective and lens, Julia, if you could speak to us about how the board plays a role in brand and branding. I think it's a really good question because to me for the different boards that I've served, if you have folks, and I'm from the media background, if you have folks on that board who resonate with that piece of American business, then you have the push. But if you have folks on the board that are not engaged in communications, in marketing, in any media whatsoever, it falls by the wayside and it seems like an expense. And the tone and tenor of that board pushing leadership is like, we'll look for something free, look for something pro bono. Contrary to board members that have some foot in that marketing media communication sector, I have to tell you ladies, they're always like, there's not enough money in the budget for this. They're always like pushing, let's get more money, let's get more money. So it's extremely different. It's extremely different. And I think you see that in communities across America. Those organizations that might be, I hate to say it, but doing kind of hokey things, but they have money and they market, they're at the top of the charts every month. Yeah, and just yesterday our conversation was with a give back nation. We talked about Google ad grants and how, I'm sure that plays a big piece into branding and all of it. But hey, let's dive into our final talking point which can open up a whole nother can of worms, but we're gonna talk about the brand's voice. And so cultivating the nonprofit's brand voice. What does this mean? I like to start with two questions. Is what do you stand for? That was generally easy to answer. And then what do you stand against? That kind of cuts through the noise of, this is what we don't want to see in our world. This is what we don't want to see in our brand. This is what we don't see in what we talk about or organization is what we wouldn't eliminate for the people that we're serving. So I think really cutting to what do we, who do we, who we are right now? And then you can, I also like to dig into questions. Are you a little more masculine or feminine or professional or approachable? And kind of narrow things down. It's kind of like deciding who you are. You know, like those little personality quizzes I like to take. But who, like a lot of that really is like, do you show up aligned with your mission, aligned with the audience you're trying to serve? And then the voice really ties it all together. Are you speaking to others and is your, are your visuals aligned with how you want to serve and who your programs are really impacting? Cause at the end of the day, it's really to bolster, all of this work is to bolster the really important stuff that's being done in our programs and the work that is changing our world. But if we can't build brand recognition, then it's better to support the people who are doing really good work. I love those two questions. Would you say them again? You. What do you stand for? Okay. What do you stand against? Yes. You know, that to me is so fascinating because we've seen over the last three years as we refer to them multiple pandemics, right? We've had the global crisis. Yeah, we've had social injustice. We've had political divide. So I think really asking those questions, what do you stand for? What do you stand against? And how that integrates into brand branding and then our voice when it comes to the brand. That to me is so powerful. Yeah. Yeah. I think if you know those, are you courageous enough to say those out loud and continue that? It's one thing to say it in a quiet room, but are you willing to like really take a stand against something happening in the community? Yeah. And knowing that that might impact someone's opinion on the organization. And I've heard this, I've heard this over the last three years, you know, is that, well, I'm not going to donate to this organization because of their stand on X, Y and Z, but I've also heard the flip script, right? Which is I'm absolutely supporting this organization because they stand for X, Y and Z. Yeah. Yeah, and I love that you said that because I think also it's, Sarah, to your point, it's not just the opposite of what you want, what you stand for. You know, I mean, it digs deeper and asks a courageous, for a courageous conversation. It's really powerful and I love that. I think that's a brilliant, brilliant thing. And, you know, for any of our viewers watching, I can see this being, what is it that our organization doesn't want? Being an amazing exercise at a board retreat or just a plain board meeting. Because I bet it would raise some points that people are shocked by, you know, really amazing. Well, one of the things that we're not shocked about is all of Sarah's wonderful and insightful work. And if you go to her website, you will see a bunch of resources that are free that you can download and they're really cool. I loved Sarah the online donation page checklist. I thought that was great. And then I loved the counterpiece of that was that you had the one for digital fundraising. And so if you look at one, take a look at the other and you can kind of see the differences and the similarities at the same time. Really powerful stuff. So don't miss this amazing opportunity. You can get it at projectbigimpact.com and learn even more about Sarah, her website's beautiful. And Sarah, you were sharing with us in the green room. You're kind of going through a rebranding yourself. And a lot of that is this internal stir that's coming from that ask that I ask any of the organizations I worked with is like, what is my mission? What do I want to be doing? And how does my current brand reflect that? How does my website portray the packages that I want to serve and the programs that I want to serve? And the people that I want to work with, is that drawing them in, is that welcoming the right people and closing the doors on the wrong people? What do I stand against? What do I not want to work with? And maybe the brand that I have attracts the right people and repels the ones that I don't. So, yeah. Yeah, I love that. And it's so important over the years and I've been in business 14 years and I will be extremely transparent. Sarah has helped me many times over the years with my own work. I really enjoy working with you, Sarah. Really enjoy having you guide me through many of these resources and practices that you spoke of here today when it talks about our brand because really that brand, as you mentioned, it's not just for nonprofits, right? It's for any business and dare I say really any person, that personal brand is a big piece of this as well. So kudos to you and doing the good work in and around our communities and around the nation. For those of you watching and those of you listening, please do check out project bigimpact.com. Sarah Groney here, CEO, graphic designer at Project Big Impact. She's got a lot going on and a big heart to help. So thank you so much. Thank you for having me. It's been a lot of fun. I really have loved so many of your comments, Sarah, because this topic makes people crazy. I mean, they get so freaked out by it, overwhelmed by it and there's so much fear. There's fear about doing something wrong and so I think a lot of times just people step back and so I really have loved some of these things that you've talked about because it is a process and as Jarrett mentioned early on, it's a journey that you need to always be thinking about. It's not a one and done and so it's really been a lot of fun. Again, check out Project Big Impact. Yet again, you've been with Jarrett Ransom, the nonprofit nerd. I like to call her my nonprofit nerd. I'm CEO of the Raven Group. I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. Again, we have been enjoying tremendous support and so I really do from the heart wanna express my gratitude to our friends over at Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, your part-time controller, nonprofit thought leader, fundraising academy at National University, staffing boutique, nonprofit nerd and nonprofit tech talk. These folks showed up and they reached out to us and said we wanna be a part of these discussions and so here we are today going into our fourth year, basically starting our fourth year this week. So again, it's been a powerful time for us. Sarah, this has been great. I look forward to working with you some more and hearing more about this because it's such a fundamental concept for many, many of these 1.8 million nonprofits that serve day in and day out across our great country. It is. And this work that you're providing, congratulations on three years. This is a phenomenal resource for all of those organizations. I'm honored to be a part of it. Thank you. Thank you. We're so glad that you are. It's been quite the journey and everyone that's come on has been also a huge part of the success. So thank you and thank you also to all of our viewers, our listeners. We're not going anywhere. Unfortunately, this conversation is wrapping up but we'll be back on tomorrow as well. And again, you can find today's conversation with Sarah on all of our streaming platforms that we mentioned earlier and we hope that you will check them out as well as project bigimpact.com. So thank you. Hey ladies, thank you so much. As we like to end every episode, we want to remind everyone to stay well so you can do well. See you back here tomorrow.