 So it was weird because it was it was not all self-organized online. I mean that was a big part of it But there was also this guy named Jason wasky who had become the state director, which is always interesting when you get there when somebody already has your title but They had you know, they were working with you know, Elijah Cummings and and the Attorney General and they had actually created county-by-county chapters of folks who kept in touch with each other through the my boat tools but you know met and they would meet as a as a State-wide steering committee of 150 people every Saturday. I mean it was pretty amazing So it was it was before we got there. They are just good organizers, but all volunteers obviously So, you know, it's probably the easiest job. I've ever had is just being like, okay It's already basically running. Let's get Barack in here a couple times Michelle and Call it a day, but but it was it was it was again the merger of the two But I think what your question about sort of What your question about the future is or to potentially I mean I think I think that is the question right it's the question of what happens to Obama campaign going forward, etc. I Think that you know, there's tons of ways that use a technology, you know, there's ways to do training online There's ways to bring people together obviously online. I think that you know Without a large, you know without having 2,500 organizers, I don't know if that's actually the real number, but it's it's around there That's not the record So without having that on the ground I think that You can still use this technology But I think it with all of those sort of things that I think Marshall was talking about You know about, you know one of the things in leadership as we were building these teams that we learned quickly is that the person That raises their hand first to become the team leader is often the worst leader And so oftentimes online the person that that sets up the my bow group first is often the worst leader But because they were there just have more time and a more active but maybe not the person that really Could bring people together to really motivate action So one of the key questions is how do you develop leaders in that online community where you know is what kind of structure do you put in place to sort of Define who that who the leader is and what do you have to do to become a leader? Are there tests that you have to go through? So that anybody just can't come on and say, you know, I'm going to be the leader of this organization in this community I think that's sort of the biggest question because without the leadership You have a problem of you know, whoever decides they want to step up whether or not they're leading the organization to complete the wrong direction or Taking it on a different mission or or you doing it in different names. I think the key question Let me just add to that that those six items I went through about you know values and strategy and so forth are Leadership practices in other words, that's what leaders That's the what the practice of leadership entails with a volunteer group especially so the question is how do you accomplish that? And it's particularly challenging because many of them are interpersonal skills So it's not like mastering a body of data about geology I'm involved in designing a distance learning version of my organizing class that I teach here for the spring and We're going to experiment with that. It's challenging frankly because if people enroll as individuals and you're trying to teach people interactive skills So one rule we've made is people are going to enroll as teams. In other words, we'll only accept people who already come form those teams And then that will allow us to coach Interactive practice and use video we hope in order to give feedback We're going to try but it's I think but you have to This whole thing of self-organization. I think it's a chimera. I mean, I just think it's a wish The reality is that it takes skill and craft and practice to be good at it And the question is how to develop that capacity not just sort of wish that it'll happen and then oh gee It was a miracle. It doesn't work that way And but we can do much more than we have been able to do I think if we approach it focused on the right things So the last thing I'll say I know there's other questions is if you look at California in the primary nine organizers What Buffy who was the field director there was able to create was a was an organization that was statewide And was able to produce way more calls per organizer Certainly and really per capita than than than most states and they use all the long they use the technology But had a very small, you know staff structure to make it happen So I think places like that are case studies and how could work well and just just one quick on on Buffy in California What was not traditional? Was a leadership team structure at the base see traditional is like you find somebody and put them in charge And then they burn out or they seize all the they try to seize the power or you know, it's that kind of deal We've launched through these Camp. Obama's we launched teams leadership teams Interdependent teams that were designed purposely With shared norms with a structure and so forth It gave them a durability a longevity and a capacity that I hadn't seen before with volunteer efforts And so Buffy with very few organizers was able in two weekends. We launched 200 of these teams now Of course some flaked out and you know so forth the coaching is a critical role here And that's another little thing to mention is about significance of coaching But I just wanted to emphasize just because it involves people face-to-face doesn't mean it's traditional It just means that it's people face-to-face and there's lots of innovation to be done there as well as in the other Yeah, I mean I think the video we used to get people to do stuff was okay Here's the story of what we did and like sign up right here to do it which was very effective And we saw a huge, you know sign-up rates What I think you're also asking or at least what I'm thinking is did we experiment with people actually creating their own video And telling you know their story to the campaign which I think nationally they may have done some But I don't I don't think we did it any in our states and in terms of going forward I Mean I think there's probably tons of lessons that you guys probably know way better than I do About video and moving people into action that I don't I don't even claim to to know the answers to other than you know A good video Connected to a real narrative about what's happening. That's real And a way to capture people when they say they want to do something from that and get them into action You know if you have all those things, I mean, I think it's going to be powerful no matter What year you're working on it one of the real challenges is the communication of is emotional communication Okay Over over the internet is is the communication of affect As you know, it's very easy to express emotion right, but it's a lot harder to experience Experience it in fact sometimes it's too easy to express emotion because we're not empathetically Inhibited from the person being right in front of us. How many people have had that experience? And so you just send off an email and anger and they told geez why did I do that? I should have pushed delete it's because we're used to empathy both as communication inhibition We understand then the social context that we're in and the the ability of the video to communicate Empathy for empathetic communication I think it's really important and one of the reasons why it had such an impact So we have to appreciate the significance of emotional as well as conceptual communication No, it's a great question. I think I actually think it might have been What Joe's referring to is is Have a book coming out in February Called why David sometimes wins and but it's about the farm work organization but then also at the end the way in which it implodes and The implosion I locate a lot to lack of accountability systems and and I think there's a I think with the this mode of communication There's even greater danger in that it's very easy to sit in a room and Imagine you're connected to a million people out there and just do your thing Whereas if you have to interact with other people Again, it's this power of of empathetic interaction Creates more accountability in it. I think accountability was a huge problem there I think it's a problem of leadership isolation through lack of accountability mechanisms within the organization I don't know that this this might even have made it worse in fact, there was a period when There was an effort to try to Market the boycott as opposed to organize the boycott as we did this great boycotts And they were organized city by city and there was an effort to try to do it through direct mail and It fell flat because it was a marketing operation When what took the boycott to work was organization But that then means people and structure and accountability and so that that's my thought on that And then on your leadership question Usually we would fire them I mean, I'm serious So when I was in Pennsylvania, we messed up because we only we thought we only had eight weeks So we had these trainings or 1,800 people that showed up this Saturday We train them and we leaders were just as appointed right and tons of them were Fantastic, and they were great and they are where the leaders all the way through the general election and you know We're running for office themselves now or doing some you know They're gonna be leaders in this organization going forward others were really bad And we had spent a lot of time way too much time of our organizers time Figuring out how to replace that person, you know having those difficult conversations and then telling them that you know This is actually a leadership role in the campaign and We're not hitting where we need to be and so we're bringing somebody else in and that happens at the staff level as well So the importance of that process being right I think Because no one wants to fire anybody particularly a volunteer But you have to do it in order to get the organization where it needs to be well And what was cool? The impression is that that there was much more transparency because of the internet tools As you could see who was what was happening and what wasn't happening? And so it introduced a kind of transparency that's so difficult in most Organizations with tears to actually know what's happening and to be able to see what's happening and evaluate in that way And everybody knows it's all in front of God and everybody is a very I thought that was a really important thing So so there's a change.gov question, but then there's a sort of campaign question as well So what's happened? So so there's there's millions of people right on our email list and there's millions of volunteers out there So what we've been doing is going through a process to figure out to be what we're calling deliberate haste Which is what Barack talks about with with with his you know transition into You know till January 20th, which is to figure out what works and what didn't work And what what do people in the community really care about so the first step we does we send a survey out That new media folks send out that has over 500,000 responses and not just You know one to four but like open-ended questions as well about where they want to see the movement going But but also like what do we do well and not do well because if we're going to go for we got to figure out What was it that people at the very grass at the local level really thought about the organization? You know they might not tell you face-to-face, but you know They're giving us this great feedback on on all that sort of stuff So that was one thing that we did second thing is last weekend We held a conference of some of the best Neighborhood team leaders and some of the best organizers And got their feedback as well in small group discussions about what they thought about what worked with didn't work And what we should do going forward We've held thousands of conference calls with field organizers, and we'd get tens of them on a call Get their feedback get their ideas on the vision going forward We did the same thing with regional field directors We did individual calls with people at higher level on the campaign And then this weekend there's house parties going on across the country As you know David Puff has been emailing out about and the key of those is to really get people's feedback on what worked and what didn't And their visions for going forward so It's telling us a lot about what our community wants And what they're willing to do. I mean we asked like how many hours they're willing to put all this sort of stuff So all of that is happening now what happens to the change dot gov thing is sort of you know Figuring out and how to you know a lot of those people You know gonna get jobs and some won't and what do you do with all that energy and people over there Want to do things around you know that so I think that's a question we just have to figure out Yeah, right, right, I mean we will after what so now it's sort of the process of like redefining the next step And redefining what the organization looks like and who's in charge of it And where is it how's and all that sort of stuff as those questions are answered There will definitely be that sort of like here's what we're asking you do I mean they asked right now as they hold this house party be a part of this process Like you your voice should be heard in this as we went as we as we listen to your voice We'll come up with the next steps, and then there will be asks around that I mean we don't ask people to go to house meetings either that has parties. We're asking them also to Come up with a civic engagement process project or service project in their community around the holidays You know that that that sort of is something that they're going to be doing And then we will as we move the organization forward come up with I didn't fully appreciate the concept of deliberate haste. I have a better appreciation of that now I think I think I was impatient And I think that the process of Learning that's going on is a very important one. I think that sometimes I've observed the campaign to Close itself off from outside Contributions in ways that might be more helpful not to do but it's at the margins. It's at the margins. I Said it's at the margins. I just said it's What is it friendly criticism? That's the intent So I don't know what else to say about that. Yeah, and I mean I think we could do a better job of Telling the story of what we're doing You know, I mean most people don't know the process we're going through and we're getting it out there And there's going to be more and you know the emails that are starting to go out about you know You know people are wondering is it over like the office is gone? My organizer is gone. What does that mean about what do I do? And so there's a lot of people out there on if you if you know if you read the the mybo groups and things like that People are wanting to know and they want to be a part of it And we're doing a better job of thing now of making sure they know what process we're going through. Yeah, no I don't I don't think I mean it's good. It is a product product provocative question I don't think there's anything anarchistic about saying this organization is going to the next step We want the feedback of the people that have made this organization What is it doesn't mean that we're gonna that all like a thousand different groups are going to come up with their Own projects and that's going to be the organization It's saying here are some of the things that we that we want to hear from you We want to hear exactly how you were organized what criticism you have of the way you were organized What things you thought were great about the way you were organized so that as we set up the organization going forward We can make tweaks, you know, we're the teams too big were they too small was the or do we have too many organizers? And then and then the question is what do you want to see? What's your vision of this to go next and you know We're seeing tons of very interesting information about a lot of people within the organization have very clear Priorities about what they want to do number one push Barack Obama's legislative agenda Knowing that our organization is very clearly with that and then also that they're willing to give hours that they're willing to put in time Is is key for us to know how to set up the organization So we don't just sit in the room and say well, you know We think the volunteers out there willing to give 20 hours a week Like they did in the campaign and we think this is the number one priority that everyone cares about Let's make it and let's go. I mean, it's a process of actually figuring out taking the temperature of the organization Yeah, after the after the Pennsylvania primary I came to Chicago with a group of people we did the exact same process Survey out to all of our volunteers commerce calls of all of our organizers a deliberate process of you know What did we do and how should we set this up for the general election brought everyone together did a training with a Program that came from those conversations those surveys those discussions that we were having amongst people Within the organization and without about how we ran the primary So it's actually in very many ways the very similar process But yeah as we get to the next stage of like making the decisions about where we're going forward It's not going to be like hey We want everybody's ideas on what we do next on everything. There's gonna be there's gonna be a plan There's gonna be a process. It's gonna be an organization set up. So let me just add to that that The strategy the organizing strategy that emerged in the campaign was not like conceived whole cloth at the beginning There's a whole lot of learning And a lot of mistakes And learning from those mistakes and looking at successes I mean, I think one of the strengths of the campaign was its capacity to learn And so I think the question here is to how in this next phase How much learning is the organization prepared to do because certainly like what you work on there's a lot to contribute about that And I think to the extent that there's as much learning in the next phase as there was in the last one That's that's a good thing, but it's it's sort of new territory in a way I mean if trying to figure out figure this thing out I mean a movement hasn't emerged within a political electoral campaign before I mean and that's kind of what's happening And and then there's the whole question of governance itself and what what about governing In what ways of governing can people be engaged and civic capital be created not just through the campaign mechanism But I mean if we're gonna really deal seriously with environmental challenges Local communities have to be mobilized and organized and engaged in thoughtful ways Why can't we do that through government too? I mean government doesn't Well, yes, the whole thing trained educated I mean Leadership's I mean there's an enormous possibility but it's beyond it's beyond Emails from Barack and emails to Barack. I mean it's much much beyond that. I mean I think you know Yeah, I always tell organizers who work for us You know it don't expect this to be the norm, you know You don't you don't get you don't get you know this and that and that in resources wise And you know that the money and and the resources that we were able to to raise I mean I think really helped our ability to be able to be everywhere to get people engaged To have organizers on the ground, you know more so but it was also the commitment to I mean We could have spent more money on TV and and earlier and we could have spent more money on a lot of other Marketing techniques instead put it in organizers and and put it in training people and put it in a lot of things That you know We could have definitely taken that budget in Ohio and moved it around on a lot of other things You know people wanted me to send more mail. They wanted me to do more robocalls, but we put it into organizers We put it in training. We put it into materials for our volunteer leaders So I don't think I'm getting at your deeper question. Marshall will do that That's my job. That's his job, but um, but I you know, you can't take that away but you also can't take away that the the work that the The new media folks did in terms of creating a narrative and using and getting people to come back and getting them to Feel like hey, I'm giving money and it's actually you it's being used for something of good Because I saw the local office in my neighborhood I can't tell you how much money we raised in kind where people would contribute and then they wanted to contribute to know that There was going to be an office in their community And they kept coming back and so there was there was some like okay This money is being used in a way that I can see it. I want to give more And the way that they were telling the story online was was huge I'm not regard and then when you talk about when you talk about the competition piece And I'll just talk about that for a second. I don't know because I didn't look at them that much I would only go to the I wouldn't go to the McCain website that much except for to see if there were events in the air and things like that But I don't I don't know when somebody could tell me in the room if their tools technology were any better or worse But if it was it's it's not necessary, you know in that competition You know the tools are again It's back to the sort of the carpenter and the candidate and the message and things like that But you can build great tools in some of those congressional races But if you don't have the right message that that sort of gets people to go to those groups and get some to use those Tools or you're not talking in a way about getting involved and you know Barak would talk about the website and talk about the groups and talk about these things when he was at Meetings that created an area where people wanted to go online and do those things. So it's not necessarily just the competition You want to say answer deeper? Okay, last comment it's got to be profound no Saul Alinsky said there's two sources of power Organized people and organized money and I think Barak figured out how to do both and I think it's important to treat the Financial resources not as some Deus Ex Machina, but also the result of very very effective Organizational work in which the internet was a central central piece of but not but but in a context And and I think it's really important to keep appreciating the context in which the tools were used to appreciate The conditions under which they work and what they can do You