 Yeah Wait for Dana Yeah So if we could all please sit down Make less noise. Thanks. I'd like to introduce you to our second speaker today. Micaela Trimarki coming from Italy Micaela is professor of cultural economics and and cultural analysis of law he writes extensively on cultural policy of policy and cultural economics and works international cultural cooperation Thank you Micaela for making it today He's going to speak about his talk is from Avery Towers to the Urban Texture a map of future culture. Thanks Yeah, well first of all, let me justify myself. I'm an economist, so I'm not the right person to be here But I my impression is that what I can do Trying to be of any use is to give the impression of the ecosystem where we are Whoever you believe you are an artist project leader a cultural manager, whatever it is certainly there is a complex ecosystem and very often that danger is a wee Spend our time with people like we are so we Only we never or we rarely listen to different voices, but very often we At the end of story squeeze our own beliefs thinking that these are the only right ones So maybe just a wide-water view can be of some use I will start from where we are just to understand where we possibly are going to and the point is okay the Dominating feeling in the present word is that things are going really bad because there is something like barbarians Threatening our civilization all the people working in heritage and culture in the arts whatever sector even in opera music Dance, etc. Normally feel themselves and the siege of an ignorant society They say people now are really losing their culture and they feel and they declare a lot of nostalgia Towards something like in the 19th century. Everybody used to like opera, which is of course not true at all now My view is that in present days. We are the most sophisticated Society ever in history so our feelings our approaches our expectations are much more Sophisticated much more able to go into deaths then it used to be even 50 years ago So it's bizarre that the fear of change is so strong and so Deep that actually the real justification is okay. People are ignorant very often I Actually leave a going around in conferences and debates, etc And there is at least one or two people saying something like young people have a very low threshold of attention Because they are actually used to change programs in the TV With a remote control lying on the sofa that doing an effort. That's a moralistic view, of course But I mean it really is diffused and then something like okay. They are used to Video games touch screen, etc. And I always answer saying okay The Lord of the Rings is much longer than any symphony by mother So the point is it's not true that the threshold of attention is low The fact it depends on what you actually are using at doing So there are many things that even younger people Actually are happy to bear because they like it. So the point is not Ignorance of people is the idea of culture not being anymore a monoblock an Objective static monoblock to which we have the effort to go suffer, etc in Italy Normally Italy's a full of very bad examples in managing culture For example, we don't have arm chairs in front of paintings in museums because the common place is either you suffer Or you can save your soul and since we believe Apparently, I'm joking the same dramatically was true. So the point is at the end of the story. We should actually Restart from scratch because things of these The accumulation of these commonplace debate is very dangerous because of course at the end of the story It's not only bad atmosphere, but it's also for example less money. So you would less Spaces less urban space. So at the end of story There is a physical damage and a financial damage to culture the arts because very often there is a separation between institutional managing the society and Arts and cultural projects. So it is much more dangerous that we can believe just thinking they're stupid And that's it. They're stupid and they're dangerous as every stupid person Then of course the point is we have a very nice Institutional gate keeping culture as it is that is being so far. For example, we have the idea of fans being awards So fans are not used to allow Freedom of expression or in some way even variety of projects But just I like you I give you money which is censorship at the end of story But every government in our countries and the pts very often also the emerging economies are Imitating the so-called advanced countries, which is a danger because they are replicating that cloning systems in which they just Give an award to what they personally like, which is not necessarily cultural then of course there is there are strong barriers Against entry the emerging activities are normally considered something low level low quality etc. Which is of course something you can't Demonstrate nevertheless the institutional responses such as this and then of course there are no real incentives. So Nobody is really encouraged to invent some cultural project The idea is either you stay in the mainstream cultural flow or you are an alien and you're not given Even a small citizenship in cultural realm, which is really a danger Also because it's society is losing something such a way I'm not backing the idea of being right or wrong good or bad It's convenient for society to have a variety of cultural project because this is like crafting an alphabet and allowing society to choose a Variety of parts of development while if you just drain everything and put everything on a single flow You are actually losing energies or possibly also you're Kicking off this energies Compelling them to go away to change sector to change country to change galaxy whatever it is. So it's quite stupid on the other hand the defense of culture is to Protect the other tower in which they believe they are still and the idea is okay We are doing something ethical such as transforming people into wonderful people, which is very stupid I have a very long blacklist of people. I hate that Read novels go in museums like music also Hitler loves symphonic music. So culture is not changing your soul but if you read whatever it is magazines newspapers and also sacred textbooks and culture It is very Diffused the idea of Culture doing something special for your soul, which is a very beginning of a disaster at the end of the story Then of course the idea of educating the audience. This is also a very stupid statement We are not there with cultural project to educate anybody We have an expressive urgency and in the story Maybe this sounds familiar to people in society and we can exchange ideas We can exchange intuitions, but the idea of a theatrical say director Educating his own audience is very dictatorial dictatorial at the end of story. It's very, you know superb and stupid We're not Different from the others. We're normal if I like it everybody can like it culture is very simple The idea is maybe in the last two centuries We've refused this simplicity and we tried to make things complicated not to allow Everybody have a normal familiar access in to culture and then the last bit and that's the economic the financial Bit of it is the idea of demonstrating the culture generates money if you digit something like economic impact of culture on Google a lot of pages from Town administration in the United States Australia Canada will come up Demonstrating okay, we spend 100 for culture, but the end of story we managed to make 1000 circulate So we transform the investment in culture in something like nights in hotels meals in restaurants parking Tickets motorways tickets, etc. Okay True, but this happens for everything even illegal activities produced A big impact on the economy So it would I wouldn't use as an argument also because if I say look you it's right You fund culture because I may generate 10 times your investment Every even small commercial center generates 100 times my Investment so it's very stupid to use an argument that can be very easily reverted against us. Let's say, okay So what what's the problem? We lose the idea of what? Cultural and arts project may generate that no other activities can do so the unfungible impact Which is something much more complex and delicate, but certainly we have the advantage of generating of seeding in some way Fertilizing society with things that no other activity can do so it's stupid to use this sort of arguments which are not at all demonstrable then of course This protection of culture which is dominating the debate in the institutional culture Dominating generations, whatever it is Is generating of course a reaction of people and there are many people saying okay at some stage people will come back to us It's a public budgets as you know Are being drained progressively because maybe there was there was too much public expenditure for everything in the last 20 years So at some stage of course we've had the problem of trying not to expand Even more our public budgets. It is maybe discussed for hours. It's not our Objects so I don't don't lose time on this But certainly I must recall the idea that public budgets are being in its way contracted and certainly culture is Progressively given less money So many people say okay, but it's not the right thing at some stage. They will come back This is so stupid things will are not going to be anymore like they used to be until yesterday And that's not an apocalyptic statement. It's an opportunity for us But fortunately things aren't going to be replicated Statically as they used to be in the last 30 or 40 years Then of course on the other hand, there are in some way Action which is on one hand occupation of spaces, which is very romantic in some way I'm not in a position to give evaluations of these. I'm just analyzing them. Certainly. There is an urgency of Going back to places. So the occupation of places has a Strong motivation and as a strong passion in it The question is that probably quite often occupation is a short-term action So it's very difficult to imagine that there could be a strategic project. He also dealing with markets with Society so normally it is a political act which has very strong and it's necessary to Put some something strong in the debate, but the question is okay. How long can it last and how much can we do? Continuing a simple occupation and not a strategy a much more a much wider strategy On the other hand, there is a very commercial drive such as okay We put Disney things whatever it is restaurants the bookshops etc. Wherever whatever it is culture We don't make money because people are prepared to do something for us even donating, but we make money because we actually Use something like with specter spectacular eyes culture. So we put something special effects It's a we've had a lot of impressionist Exhibitions a blockbuster exhibition where people go Look go away and never come back. So this very stupid is what one shot business for one person and Society is not affected at all By this so it's dangerous to be careful about numbers I don't care about what how many people come my question should be how many people come back when once they've been once In my place in my in the place where I'm developing a project on the other hand In this protected ecosystem, there is a wonderful elsewhere What things are happening? So I'm seeing in the whole world. There are no mainstream activities Developing which are in some way crafting their own projects not replicating the Common, you know making foundations or whatever it is So there is also an institutional greed that normally is a cut and pasted to feel protected Actually, what's happening is that many small but Strong projects are emerging out of this mainstream culture and these leaders the interesting beat Of course, I'm not saying that each single project will be successful I'm saying this is a signal of a big attempt in which crafting a project without making reference to the existing models Is the clever thing to do and maybe it is also It's possible that these projects have a longer life Also because they can be adapted time by time and not being in some way mummified. So There is something we're losing but there is something we're earning and maybe what we're going to earn in long-term perspective Is going to be much more interesting than what we are losing so on the other hand the point is Dealing with heritage and the arts and dealing with a word in which this part I just Get my bit from the discussion a few minutes ago The idea of having too many labels is very dangerous because actually culture Institutional culture is very obsessed with the idea of being labeled in some way. So also the being admitted in the UNESCO list Is not Granting you anything at all you need to invest in any case So you only have a label and this is not at all even attracting tourists or whatever it is So you remain exactly as you were before the only thing is you have more formal responsibilities But nobody actually looks at the strategy of your projects connecting your thing heritage whatever even intangible heritage with society so Establishing a relationship between culture and society culture Is a very elementary word coming from the Themological root of cultivation to cultivate you need two elements one is a relationship You need a seed and soil only with a seed you can't cultivate culture Culture culture is normally isolated. So it's strange because they're refusing the Funding route of their identity The second element is the multiplication of value Nobody would plant a seed to get after six months the same seed you need something more So culture means not only relationship, but also action. You need some strategy to set a dialogue with people Whoever they are one by one not necessarily Masses, but certainly it is a delicate but important process if you don't do it. It's not culture So whatever label you may have it doesn't mean anything at all just to be quite bad if we read Statistics about for example reading you say okay in Germany there are Such percent proportion of people are reading at least one book It's not true at all. It's the percentage of the proportion of people buying a book not reading it a B, nobody asks you actually what you read it may be the I don't know The man without quality or it can be also a manual of yoga breathing or a cookbook or whatever it is I May be I can't defend the idea that not necessarily every book has the same Cultural rate and maybe the question should be not only if you read it But how you read it if you read it again if you look for other books after you read it at say if you write something Etc. So maybe if we look at figures, we don't have any view of what is really happening in society This is really dangerous because we are we people involved in cultural projects are the only ones who can protect ourselves from these mainstream Terminating strong view of everything being dimensional, which is really dangerous So even our label may be something nice to use in newspapers But certainly it doesn't grant us that that our identity is Appropriately perceived by society and so we very often we have a very loose Identity and a very strong label. We should revert exactly the process to be I mean in our interact in our interest and So of course, it's true We are in a crisis just to go back to words crisis means change in ancient Greek So it's not a bad word. It's just a change When there is a change something happens Maybe none of us will be in the same position as we are now But only those who are afraid of losing something will react against the crisis those who want to bet Want to face the challenge are quite happy that there is a crisis finally There is a crisis things are changing so it's good news if we only are able to interpret them in a positive way and certainly Without setting hierarchies, but cultural people should be those who are most able of the rest of the world to evolve to imagine because we have Contents which are in some way the critical are a discourse like the Anglo-Saxon literature Describes culture is a cultural discourse or the cultural texts, which is not something sculpted and marble, but something evolving time by time But That's good news since culture is regulated in a very rigid way We have a lot of loopholes and open areas in which we can go the emerging Projects I was speaking about a few minutes ago are exactly those using the non institutional area in which you can go so our Legal systems are something like whatever is not prohibited is allowed So rather than fitting making the effort of fitting into legislation We should observe what is ignored by legislation and go into that which is not being illegal It's just not being mainstream and being free flexible and possibly much quicker than the institutional culture That's our challenge in my view Then of course new values We've been grown up can I go on I've been too long You tell me We've been grown up with a very simple idea values when we were children values and still now the values were something like Efficiency competition Excellence these were the three magic words we've been trained our parents will say you need to be efficient You must be competitive you kill people in advance because they could be your competitor eventually etc. That is very stupid And it's the manufacturing Paradigm at the end of story, but now fortunately the emerging values are I'm not imagining thing. I'm just describing what I see in the world Of course these are not yet mainstream values, but they're becoming progressively mainstream values They are experienced relationship and proximity something in which you craft things Time by time with a local community with a place and with the idea of being flexible so being Empirical which is exactly the contrary to the manufacturing paradigm in which everything should be modeled Very often cultural people ask me what's the model and I always answer that there can't be any model in culture Because by definition culture is made by I say culture to be simple Of course culture the arts that you imagine whatever thing you want, but certainly culture is not at all homogeneous Is by definition every unit of it is unique and not comparable with each other So there can't be hierarchy and easily they say we own Two-thirds of the words heritage etc. It's not anything you can measure It's so stupid and it's not a muscular exhibition. The point is how I am managing it So the point is the new Models imply a much more relaxed view of time and space We don't need to be international. We need to be present in our community. So a local Dimension is much more preferable and certainly it is much more convenient for us. It will set Connection with the rest of the world, but we are not obsessed by our label whether we are local or international Maybe if we start locally we can set a dialogue with the institution much more easily than with word Governments with the spectra etc. Then of course This implies the idea of being able to be entrepreneurs not to be culture as an exception So normally the common place is culture people are not People doing business which is very stupid if you decrypt the word business out of the you know mainstream Commonplace images of the managers power points whatever it is at the end of the story business something doing something in exchange for and I must say even economists used to say the very beginning of last century Entrepreneurs are such because they have animal spirits. So they have intuition. They have Atmosferical intuition. So it's not computation. It's not excel sheet It's just seeing things that no other sees in that moment even one second before the others and so have an intuition Entrepreneur the word entrepreneur or enterprise Don't focus upon the goal. They focus upon the beginning of something So the real investment is not something computed with a granted outcome, but it's something you can't do without So it is an action urgency in some way and we are there as cultural project people so We are much more entrepreneurs than the excel power point etc. People that are actually replicating a lazy and Static model. So it's our time. That's I know I may sound encouraging I'm an economist. I'm being true This does not imply that each cultural thing will be successful This implies that the spirit of time is favorable as it never has been before in the last say six months a being called a few times by and by Companies by business companies asking me what's going to happen in the world and doing this with being sincere Doing this with artists not not on my own but connecting economic view artists intuition We were actually paid to explain to them what's going to happen in the world because they are so much involved in replicated models that they are not any more able to understand what's you know Beyond the wall so Also for this there is a growing demand of art and culture on the part of the rest of the world It's our task to understand it to intercept it and to do something not for them, but do what we do Understanding what can be of any use for them or for the rest of the world? It's still dialogue of cultural value Heritage what's heritage? It's something we received on one hand, but it's not necessarily we may interpret heritage from two points of view Either what we received from our ancestors There is a commonplace sentence I very often listen to which is our fathers did like this So we need to do like they did which is very wrong Mean we wouldn't have invented the wheel doing what our fathers did of course and then second in the 19th century paradigm the idea of Museums and culture was something like okay We are keeping memory of the past because the only the past gave us value Forgetting that the past was needed only by the the capitalist bourgeoisie because it was the only class in history not having a past They stole it actually if you read the Masfield Park by Jen Austin You see that at some stage when there is the guy coming from London He's an entrepreneur young entrepreneur. They want to seduce Fanny Price who is the girl living in a Socratic family He understands that until they are in the park. She is not falling in the trap So he brings her in the wilderness, which is a not organized part of the park There Fanny risked to lose her orientation because of course wilderness is the jungle It's a perfect metaphor for emerging capitalism. We are at the end of the 18th century At the end of story fortunately Fanny doesn't fall into a trap because Jen Austin at this wonderfully reactionary She want to rescue the aristocratic people, but certainly the idea is at the end of the story. That's the metaphor That's why the bourgeoisie needed the past when Napoleon goes to Egypt brings with him more archaeologists and soldiers the war is Very almost a disaster, but they managed to bring in Paris whatever they can Stealing stones from Egypt. That's it. So that's the past the muses are evolving Unfortunately, the mother of the muses who was the goddess of memory Change is changing her view by 180 degree Rather than protecting past memory. We need to create Something worth remembering in the future. So our task as cultural people is not Protecting the existing. I mean, I don't want to destroy it. Of course. I haven't say okay. We protect it It's beautiful, but the main Core business shouldn't be any more to protect also the concept of protection implies that we protect things against somebody The idea of somebody threatening culture. I mean culture. I don't see apart from exceptions that happen Once in 10 or 20 years Nobody destroys culture voluntarily. So this is a very stupid commonplace. Imagine the people are actually ready to Destroy everything. It's not true. We protect it But our task being heritage people is to create new heritage something that will be inherited by future generation That we enjoy it presently and since we enjoy it we can transmit some value to future generations So it's not a good and romantic task. It is an egoistic task. We do it. We enjoy it We speak our own language if it's worth memory. It's worth at the end of story. So that's the news of the future a museum Heritage urban spaces can't be anymore a place where you go and visit like blockbuster tourists put crosses on your Moleskine and say okay. I've seen it. That's very you know, it's like anxiety from performance. It's a very stupid concept it's like a Very dimensional concept. So it's another opportunity for us, but also a responsibility So just to be certain models or in some way reference change the manufacturing model is perfectly represented by a symphonic orchestra wonderful place, but Each single musician belonging to an orchestra must replicate Exactly what the conductor imposes. So even if they are wonderful musicians, they can't improvise. They can't interpret They only have to do exactly the single beats Put together by only one person who is the head of the company in such a case the Conductor of the orchestra This is for Dism is a mechanical model. You remember metropolis and that's the symphonic orchestra Now what's happening is something much more challenging, which is the north african Fondue the court yard or handicraft people are there crafting vases plates Pants whatever it is and they craft the objects while they speak With a customer. So the people who want some object speaks with a handicraft Person and this implies that it is crafted in a way, which is unique The next customer will speak differently even telling stories and at the end of story The object will be different. That's the new economy. It's not Utopia, whatever it is. That's happening already Six months ago, none of you would imagine that you could go at the Nike shop crafting your own shoes Now you can do it. So even multinational industry Understood that personalization is the core of our attention towards objects and whatever that in some way represents our self These implies a very big change in the concept of quality because quality is that we go back to the label issue Quality is normally something assessed by experts. I remember when I was a child We were touring Europe and the touring the tourist guides were Describing everything with a number of stars. There was a church or a building or whatever with three stars Some other with two stars and the other with one star If you were in a hurry, you could couldn't lose at least the three stars things This is something which experts assess quality and quality is just a conventional importance Maybe it doesn't give me any contribution Mona Lisa is Whatever one hundred mile million stars painting is an icon. Everybody says it's culture. It's the arts Everybody after having seen Mona Lisa for the first time at the Louvre museum goes on and say but why the hell is it so important? because of course Each of us in the world. I'm testing it But this is of course important because nobody tells anything about Mona Lisa. It's an icon So you only get there the it's beneficial race and become a wonderful person. It's very stupid. It's really ridiculous So quality is becoming something different, which is not at all connected with the icon But with the dialogic ability of cultural supply So it's not Mona Lisa in itself, but it's how it is organized What it can transmit to me as a visitor and this implies for every form of art It's not the thing, but how the thing is in some way framed in something Speaking with us in such a way it can tell us something if it doesn't of course We just accept possibly that somebody else decided it's important for us, which is not the best destiny we may have so This is still another responsibility for cultural project people because we need to understand that the real thing is Sufficient is necessary, but not sufficient. We need a discourse around it We need to introduce people we need to encourage them to form their own vocabulary of appreciation If it if they don't do it, they will certainly fall in the trap How much time of okay, so Just to have some guidelines to do a Wise art and culture project. We certainly need site specific identity Which implies the idea not of protecting our identity, but of letting The territory the area in which we are speak to make a very stupid example in municipal museums There is never a map close to the works of art exhibited. Maybe municipal museums exhibit Objects stories belonging to the territory it could be very nice for me as a visitor to watch a map Which is to zero cost of course with a red dot Giving me them that the information about where this thing is in the urban setting, etc So it is telling things that we expect to make a very Bad example I'm not a football fan, but I'm discovering that since many years ago Football matches are described with statistics now. So even People that in my superficial view are in some way only distinctive, you know people suffering out of their Football team. Nevertheless, they can't appreciate the tea the match only watching People playing they need statistics how many times I passed the ball I received a ball what proportion I was in game, etc So it's normal for us beauty only cultural people don't understand this. This is really important Then of course another thing is to be flexible and to dialogue with the rest of the world Don't be snobbish because very often communities companies even the strongest and hardest Things we have in the territory can be interested in a mutual exchange. We shouldn't Stop our View are real just to other cultural people. That's a danger the cultural people actually fall into is I only speak with my Similar animals and not with the other species, which is very stupid very wrong because culture also in the past Culture has been successful only if it was able to speak with the rest of society Greek tragedies were compulsory For communities, so it was a state duty to go and enjoy Greek tragedies not you didn't pay a ticket and you were it's like military service But be nice I don't have a story If the question is okay, what what can we? Establish a dialogue between the arts and heritage the pity is that in the past we've been very often Invested with things such as special effects such as the exhibition of contemporary art in our archaeological site That was to be a special effect The point is have you got the opportunity to set a dialogue? So to have a permeability between whatever cultural project and the existing heritage and the urban texture if you do That's winning perspective because it speaks normally with people with what we see every day So I would say of course there is a dialogue. There's no separation between the arts and dialogue and heritage that Transmitting the same kind of urgency is values, etc. But we need to be to To protect or to be in some way to to grant their reciprocal identity not to spoil any Identity very often special effects in a rock concerts in the arena di Verona But not butter good, but it's just a place. It could be also whatever place in the world So what's the contribution as such a wide place gives to a concert none? So maybe we can do it Whenever else doesn't make any change We have a nice example. It's just an example and I told you before Italy's not good place for good examples normally with very Chauvinist and wrong in managing culture. Matera was a municipality having its crafted in stone It's called the sassy the stones is actually the residents of people Nevertheless, they understood that they could Push it ahead and ahead doing something respectful of the identity of the existing heritage which come from prehistoric ages They had a lot of motion pictures of Pasolini, but also Mel Gibson the passion was actually Should there in Nutella and understood that they can have mixing evolution of the Stone culture not only with anti-craft, but also with Artistic sculpture they have a museum National Museum of Contemporary sculpture showing how the language of the stone is continuous There is no special effect and in such a case whatever you do You're not going anymore there to visit an old place But you understand the whole place and you interpret may interpret Effectively every beat through an interpretation of the rest This well important use also tourism is becoming something soft with people who want to be Embedded in the living community rather than going there in a five-star hotel And being in some way remaining stranger For the community so we can bet and there is there are a lot of opportunities to Connect heritage with the arts without spoiling anything and even strengthening the original identity and strengthening the prospective identity so We actually the importance is to reconquer the urban greed Using a lot of examples Make a very elementary example. There is a Public library in the Netherlands who actually invaded the urban space with Digital totems you can download a book with your ebook reader or iPad for free from these totems They're far from the library when you go get to page say 50 They put the 51 there is a map of the library say okay If you want to read the rest you come to the library and you can download the rest for free But you need to come there now the question is if there is something happening in the library then nice because I'm capturing you If there is just a static place where they allow you to download the book you lost your bet So the point is to be active but to do it with a wide view using the whole urban space and Catching people where they are rather than expecting that they will come make the effort to come in our place, etc So and also The idea of using cross-mediality I would like to visit a museum and to watch a painting while I listen to the voice of somebody reading the letter that the painter was Writing while he was painting so to have informations like statistics for football is very elementary We can do it. So these are our challenges To set alliances not to be culture can't be in competition. We're so unique Other cultural things are not in competition. Normally people consume the whole system So I'm lucky if there are other cultural things in my place because at some stage people going in other places will come in my So the real mistake is to fill in competition with culture We should set a lens at least we can also ignore the other but certainly not be Obsessed by the idea that other people can spoil our destiny are our projects and then avoid the idea of considering public authorities static and Immovable we go and negotiate we need to ask not to ask for money But say we want these things think about how many things you may obtain in kind Spaces technology training whatever it is at the end of story Your goal is not to get a lot of money, but to reduce the amount of money you need to get Things objects places whatever it is endorsement That can be much more powerful than money in a stage of launching some products And then of course the idea of not being afraid of the of digital world as something spectacular virtual museums are not the same museum seen in a Program on the it is another thing So there is no separation between the digital word and the digital and the analogic word the word is only one We can use two dimensions So it is clever to exploit the opportunities of a dialogue between analogic and digital Rather than being too much drained against the idea of thinking digital is superficial. It's not at all So we've had fire I'm finishing Be safe feel safe We have the fabled we must use it So we need to reconquered the other space all the all the festivals occurring in these years are a nice symptom Maybe some of them will finish at some stage. They are a symptom that we don't want urban space to be To belong to other people to or to nothing possibly if you draw the map of your movements every day Like home a coffee bar some friends place university whatever it is Normally culture is out of your everyday path you make a deviation to go into a theater or museum, etc You don't never fall into to be Extremely stupid the model should be something like a cultural Starbucks a place where people do every effort to keep you there Not your soul to keep your body there Whatever you drink whatever you do you're there That's a challenge to open a very big area of permeability between the place where we do something cultural and the rest of the town The rest of the urban greed there we can actually we know that because many people will fall into not into a trap But into the place and so if they like it they can do it This is really important. So not to be in some way To keep our identity protecting it from anybody, that's it Thank you for this stimulating lecture Are there any questions? Hi Thank you for your evocative but rather black and white presentation. I would say and was missing more examples of The good work that's being done even in Italy. I have to say that having visited many cultural entrepreneurs They're much more creative about changing their paradigm then then then I see in with with a lot of operators in Holland or here in Germany I Want to maybe ask you a question about Changing the the the idea of time and space where you said Culture operate or culture organizations or whether is active should maybe focus more on on what's happening in their locality and And not so much on what's happening on a global level if I understood correctly. Does that mean that you cancel out? The the need for interconnectedness and the need for bringing in people from outside and the need for being able to also be a global citizen or Being part of a global culture No, it's all I make a very energetic when when they founded Rome The Kingdom of Rome at the very beginning was 70 700 something before Christ They built two temples. The first was Jupiter. The second temple was the goddess Xenia who was the goddess of welcome So the idea was everybody living here is a Roman citizen They started to understand we're speaking about many many years ago They understood that only he predating their own Even biological route, but certainly cultural route They could produce something that we've become eventually a Republican and an empire So it was refusing the idea of keeping their own identity. I mean to be very stupid If anybody kisses for generations with relatives after three generation some stupid child comes out So the idea of keeping our own route is very stupid so I'm not backing the idea of Ignoring I'm I think that now we can do it digit also digitally. So connections are quite important my only worry is not to be I'm gonna say to be decryptible. So my project should be something you can read This does not imply that you accept it passively or that we don't mix together different views But certainly I need to put something on the table You need to put something else on the table and we can fertilize with each other But certainly if before exchanges we don't have an identity We risk to copy and paste from any other model. So I've seen of course your right. Italy is a place It's a style ecosystem. So we have a lot of wonderful good examples and also a lot of bad bad examples And the idea is very often we are too much Obsessed by the idea of doing something international I might just to make a very lamented example the impressionist exhibition in Brescia or in Treviso in Italy It's not at all connected with the territory people go there Ignore the place. They don't visit the town. Don't don't even buy a sandwich in the town They go back by coach. So the point is okay Who is the real? Beneficiary of this idea is just the organizer. So very often in this Superficially globalized Cultural thing that he is that for example, there is a very bad income distribution The point would be to involve the whole community not to do something protected, but do something which is language Not necessarily only of the place, but in some way specific place specific language and then of course being able to connect this language because I'm working in Rome on the River Tiber and we're trying to set of course a lot of Relationship with other River towns in the world because maybe that we have common or different problems But certainly to check the views of each River town is quite important for us But said that we are not going to copy and paste any project done in another River We're trying to make a project emerge from the Tiber. I don't know if I'm answering Not completely maybe to give you a counter example. You must be familiar with the Teatro Valle in in Rome And and what's happened there in the past three years the Teatro Valle occupato The Teatro Valle is one of the oldest theaters in Rome The city was no longer able to pay for its upkeep and renovation and It was threatened to maybe be demolished the neighborhood thought differently and decided to move in There's now an artist collective who run a manifold of very interesting projects But they've been fighting with the municipality now already for two three years. They are in a big Cool Sorry, they're talking to to big name lawyers, etc. Etc. Then last year what happened is that the European Cultural Foundation decided to give an award to the Teatro Valle occupato to Explain that this was actually a quite an interesting way of dealing with cultural heritage And at the same time activate community participation only after that happened a dialogue Took place between the municipality and the people that represented Teatro. So I don't see how That could have happened without International recognition of what's happening on the ground. Yeah, but I totally agree with you Maybe I explained myself badly, but I'm not against the idea of being a Internationally connected or get some recognition. I my site specificity idea is not that of being local and to Avoid contacts is to I mean Teatro Valle as an advantage because on one hand it hosts not only shows but also dialogue discussion debates from all Many parts of the world and they were able to bring in Rome a lot of People I think about the Syrian for example people having problems and giving them a stage and An outcome and a discussion which was okay But they at the same time this was devoted not to nobody or only to elite people, etc. But the people resident in Rome or to tourists so the people using the space. I am trying to Demonstrate that you need to connect the two parts so that our Community is much more Internationally oriented that we can believe that is that we normally fall into the mistake of thinking locals are locals and International means something else. This is not any more true So I'm being quite relaxed about this because I believe that being in a place You are dealing with a community, which is not a community of local stupid folkloric people. It's a Said that's the first thing I said. We're very sophisticated. We're very internationally oriented So it is the right moment to do this. I'm just saying I Wasn't thinking about that of all I was thinking about three tenors Concert impressionist exhibition or the blockbuster things. I think that these blockbuster things tend to imitate something like People coming out in TV in all the world, but not speaking with anybody in the community Not even producing people not even creative artists. So this is bad I'm backing the idea of involving the widest area that I can Both locally and internationally, but doing it consistently What I've seen easily living there. Maybe I much more obsessed with bad examples than Visitor can if there are too many things totally ignoring people and totally dealing with When I met the mayor of Brescia after the impressionist exhibition The only thing he did was to show me the number of pages of newspapers speaking about the exhibitions So he didn't care about people about his town. He care about press. I am just suggesting that caring only about press Is it just something like a backward activity? It's not necessarily convenient for any cultural project. So I agree with you Tosley There are many bad examples doing something different another question Thanks. I I really enjoyed your your economic approach because It's that kind of reality check that I think when we're all forming and constructing projects and talking with Horrible words stakeholders out there whether they work for government or their private businesses and everything you have to have that head-on about You know basically what's in it? For them and also how will it work? Anyway, I I really enjoyed your presentation. Thank you And I'm sorry that more people who I've talked to over the last few days weren't here to hear it I want to ask you about Metira though. You didn't you said You gave a list of things about what it was, but I wonder if you have some examples about how they actually Fulfilled those kinds of things in Matira, you know Matira the the stone place What did they do, you know, did they have people to stay there in these houses? Did they I don't know But what were some of the things that they actually did? They're very simple match to Establish even 20 years ago An evolving dialogue between asymmetrical organizations. So there was a private foundation the administration the Chamber of Commerce and being a small place everybody were actually there were possibly Being a school together or something like this, which is easy in a local place in some place Yeah, they could trust reciprocally now the other story They didn't care about being different from the institutional point of view. They started thinking about what to do so everything was in some way open doors and Discussions were about what are we going to do? Well, normally in many cases we have Reluctant organizations who don't want to be involved in Very often being with cultural projects that the first Thing a public and we try to say is we have no money So even before even before understanding what you're going to speak about they say we don't have money, etc. So they were able to Establish a smooth and subtle discussion about what to do and they could in a long time So it was not immediate, but it was growing and growing and growing respecting the idea of Not setting special effects in the historical center, but for example having incentive for small growing Small companies possibly activated by young professionals to establish at a very low cost in the center So they could actually open some Not necessarily touristic, but also handicraft etc visit to make it living everything was yeah everything was okay to consider Historical center as something where everybody could live and act without being special Which is something normally doesn't happen in at least in the talent experience So there was in some way an anticipation of a smoother paradigm in which the can be cooperation Of course cooperation implies discussion implies possibly Divergence or whatever it is But at the end of the story they were able to speak speak speak and understand and they did things now They have for example a different setting even of Hospitality for tourists which are tourists coming from Italy and from Broad, which is not the big hotel Everybody would have done in other time, but small rooms in in the normal buildings there so it is In some way sustainable financially it is generating Action goods and services speaking about the place so nothing special or alien or whatever it is and it does In some way attract people from the place who can work and also people from other places who can come there That's it. So it is working like this. Of course there is Even an international intention because it has been used as a location for many motion pictures So there have been a lot of relationship. They work the end of story so far. Hopefully they do Thank you very much I think we're perfectly on time on schedule We can start we'll have a lunch break now from 12 to 1 and The lunch is going to be downstairs Same as yesterday We're then going to come back up for the seminars There has been the here in the main hall. We'll have the seminar on storytelling with Anna O'Dowd and Jasmine Koch Downstairs in the basement we'll have manual Sanchez and refunk and Subheritage will happen in the workshop hall Altered video is not able to come today, but Pablo and Emil will Make it anyway, we'll give their presentations and we're gonna have the seminar there Okay, thank you and You