 Finally, I can hear people. Hi. I can finally hear people. Okay. How is everybody doing? Good. Good. Okay, finally. Hi, my name is Alicia. I am calling this meeting to order as co-chair. I am calling this meeting to order as co-chair. Governor Baker's extension of the March 12 order, suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law allows us to hold this virtual meeting of the working group. Given that we have a quorum present, I am calling the July 8th, 2021 meeting of the community safety working group. To order at 5 33 PM. I will call upon each member of the working group by name. I will call upon each member of the working group by name. I will indicate that they can hear me and we can hear them. Please remember to mute your mic after saying present. Deborah Ferrera. Present. Russ Fernan Jones. Present. Pat Ananabaku. Yeah. Various cage. Here. Okay. We will first hear any public comment that members of the public wish to provide to the working group. We will not respond to your comments, but we'll listen to your comments carefully. We will then hear comments from any group members who have something to report on the agenda. We have the recommended agenda items by Russell Vernon Jones, priorities of part two of our charge, the resident oversight board, RFB phase two, and recommendations from part one of the charge follow up. Our first order of business is the public comment section of the agenda. If any member of the public would like to make a statement, please raise your hand. I will recognize you and ask Ms. Moisten to turn on your microphone. I ask that comments be limited to no more than three minutes. The working group will not be responding to your comments, but we will listen carefully. We will now move to the members report. We will now move to the members report. We will now move to the members report carefully. And at this time, I do not see any hands raised. Okay. Okay. So since we do not have any. Hands raised right now, I will move to the members report. This is a time for members to update us on any work they're doing or any events that are coming up. Does anybody have anything that they would like to share at this time? Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask you, I would like to ask you at this last meeting that I would contact the ACLU to see, to ask about the state police reform bill and what was not approved in it last December. And they eventually connected me to Javier in Northampton. And we spent an hour on the phone today. We had a lot of questions. He had a few things to say about that initial question, which was mostly about qualified immunity and what kind of policies the local police department had about. Hiring. Anyone who had complaints of misconduct on their record. But we talked about a lot of things, and we had a lot of questions about that. And we had a lot of questions about that as well. And the board and the. He really encouraged us to research. Where the charter puts us with regard to who has various authority to appoint and dismiss, et cetera. He mentioned. Something called the mobile crisis international, which is a, I think, Canadian and US group. And he said, you know, looking at, I guess, mostly programs like Chris were related sorts of things. And he said, you know, they've had as many as 60 people at these meetings and the next meeting coming up as July 14th at two 30, when someone from San Francisco is going to report on their mobile crisis document, she sent us. So if I get that information from him, he said he would send it to me. I will send it to everybody. The other thing he's, he actually, as it turns out, worked on the North Hampton committee. And he said he has a lot of material about issues around police and alternatives to police and traffic control. And he said he would pull that together and send it all to me. And I think that I'll share it with everybody. Thank you, Mr. Vernon Jones. Ms. Pat. Hi, everyone. So I know. I sent out the work that. Two committees have been working on subcommittees have been working on and maybe some of you have not had a chance to take a look at it, but Alicia and myself, we worked on the standing committee. They hopefully the group that will replace the SWG. And if we don't have time today, maybe next week, but if you guys have any questions, you know, for us, we'll be happy to answer them. I sent it out this last night, I think. And then the second one is a traffic control that I, you know, I worked with Brianna. And also if people have questions, you know, they are all draft, nothing is set in stone. So I hope we will have time either tonight or next week to, to get input from the rest of the group. I also want to really thank Mr. Vernon Jones for the excellent work you've put in, in the oversight board draft. And I don't know if this is the time to give input, but I just have like so quick feedback. Can I? Yeah. So after members report, I was going to go into that because it would be the next item on the request agenda. So if everyone's okay, I think we can, it, can we pull it up? Is that possible? Miss Moisten. Miss Carrera. So I guess the only thing I was going to say, yeah, is what's on the agenda. Cause unfortunately I wasn't able to kind of look at the agenda because, um, you know, I also wanted to kind of, are we going to talk about the two documents that Ms. Pat and you worked on, Ms. Lee, Ms. Walker, and the one that Ms. Owen worked on with Ms. Pat. Is that all on the agenda? It falls under the agenda. Yes. Can you see the agenda? Okay. I can see it now. So yeah. So then I'll just wait until, so that we can go through the agenda then. Yep. Okay. Yeah. I'm sorry, Ms. Carrera. I did a brief overview just here. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Um, A through E on the agenda. Um, but I thought on B, we would follow up on the subgroups that we may, um, that we made and follow up to see what they have to report back and what work they've done so far. So some groups have drafts. I'm not sure if all of the groups that we did do, but they might be able to report something back to us. And then we have the resident oversight board. I thought we could bring that up then. Um, so. I think we can bring that up. So I'm just going to ask that we bring up the resident oversight board and the rest Vernon Jones. And so I believe that at this point we're getting to number three, which is creating the preliminary design for the resident oversight board. Um, so I wanted to bring that document up anyways, because I'm a server and Jones has sent that out to the group. Um, there is a rough draft that I would like to go over and miss. I think you indicated that you had a few suggestions. I'm going to stop sharing so I can find it. So you guys don't have to look at my file. Okay. Thank you. I wanted to let you guys know that I'm here. I'm just driving home right now. Participate while I'm driving. Be careful driving. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Can you see the document that's up now draft 7621? Yes. Yes, that's the one. Yeah. So can I go? Yeah, absolutely. Sorry. Oh, I'm sorry. So I thought, um, Mr. Ross, you, you're putting a lot of time and effort in this three things just jump to me in general. Just to clarify, my suggestions are that. My suggestion will be the seven with five by-park resident not for, and then to, um, white folks. So what you have as a suggestion is seven with four. By-park. And three white. I would like it to be seven with five. Mediation is I'm very uncomfortable with, with the whole concept of mediation with a complainant and APD officer, a police officer. I don't know. I just have a mixed feelings about that. It's not something I'm very thrilled about of including mediation. As something that, you know, the oversight board should be involved with. Yeah, just because of the power structure, power structure between, you know, APD and the resident, especially BIPOC folks. And then the last one is recommendation around internal investigation. What, what is the point of having oversight board because what we have right now with the AP internal investigation is not working. It doesn't go anywhere. Why do we need to put it in there? That's the three issues that jump up to me. Thank you. Mr. Verne James. I'm fine with seven and five. Do we want to specify, given that BIPOC concludes a lot of different backgrounds, do we want to specify how a minimum number of black people for that? Two out three. Okay. Mediation is something that seems to be recommended in a number of places in the literature. I don't think we should compel mediation from the way we write it up. But I'd like to give the resident oversight board as many sort of possible tools to use as they think make sense. And that's the, that's the reason I included mediation there. There's internal investigation. I mean, the police are going to do internal investigation regardless. But I agree. It's the, it's the addition of the, the investigations that the resident oversight were going to make. Those are the ones that are going to make a difference. Ms. Bowman and then Ms. Pat. Both of you in this interesting sort of way, but what I was thinking is that with Ms. Pat when it comes to the, to the internal internal affairs, internal affairs, like investigation or whatever, possibly more beneficial. If, if have like, if they've had the backup, you know, because like in press does a certain level of, you know, they check in with the person who's having an issue they check in with what they want to do, they get all, they gather all the evidence. So like there might be more punishment be handed down, especially if crest is recommending something specific internal affairs. I don't know if that makes any, I don't know what I'm saying is making sense, but we worked on their own and looking for their own stuff. But if they have documents that are gathered by crest and then given to them and being like that have to be included as part like the crest recommendations have to be included as part of the investigation, that might make a difference on how investigations are going, especially if we're coming up with. I think we are losing you a bit. I think we may have lost she and I know she said she was driving. So maybe we can come back to her when she regains signal. I think Miss Pat also did you also have your hand up. Yes. So, I mean, I speak with experience meaning that I know people who have been through the APD internal investigation, any hint of including this on oversight will just discourage a resident. So even come forward for complaint if and I know either way they're going to do their own internal investigation. I guess I'm questioning why do we need to put it in there, because the whole point of oversight board is to encourage residents to come forward if they feel wronged by APD. And if we're saying that included internal investigation to me it's not credible. I'm sorry to say that it's just it will be off putting it's just, you know, I'm speaking, you know, I'm making that just my own opinion. It's something about it that really rubs me in the wrong way. I just don't think it should be in there. I don't think I'm able to issue that. And then the reason for mediation is just the power structure I can imagine having a BIPOC person like sitting in the same room with a police officer that, you know, I think it would be too rechromatizing for folks is what I'm coming from. So, but I won't say any of that then I'm done, but that's just my opinion. Thank you, Miss Pat, Miss Ferrara. So I guess I'll take on like in terms of mediation. I think, you know, I definitely hear you miss Pat and I, and I hear Mr. Vernon Jones. I think I would want it more kind of like an option. I don't think it should be forced though right, because I think some some folks and you do want kind of a bag of tricks when you're kind of dealing with those types of situations and I'm, I'm talking about because of my experience, obviously, you know, being the director at equal opportunity where we, you know, did investigations and stuff around discrimination harassment. And so we never would impose mediation or anything like that arbitration mediation any of those things, or any type of facilitation, unless both parties wanted to do it, right. If the other party doesn't want to do it and the other party wants to do it, then it can't, you know, you can't do that. So both parties have to voluntarily engage in it. So it could be an option but I wouldn't want it to be anything mandated anything to say well, you'd have to go through mediation first before some type of discipline is imposed or something like that. You know, I mean I wouldn't, I wouldn't be okay with that at all, but it could be an option if both parties wanted to engage in it voluntarily. This moment, I don't think you're on. Okay, here we go. And then, in terms of the internal affairs, I guess for me, and I guess Mr. Vernon Johnson's you wrote this maybe you have more, more information and that's maybe something we need to get from the APD at least for me will be beneficial is what is the process I do understand that that you know, APD usually they do the internal affairs and everything. So is that the only thing they do they do internal affairs investigation, which usually is what is it someone that they bring another police officer they've been from outside. Is it someone they have internal that does internal investigation. I guess I want to get more of a sense of what is in place now. I would agree with Ms. Pat right that if it's them doing their internal investigations, even if it's someone from the outside. It's not something that usually, you know, the community is very, you know, trusting of, you know, so I really like the concept of having kind of, you know, maybe a cadre investigators at the disposal of the board, in order to do that. And the only thing that I'm thinking in terms of why maybe you included it and I don't know I would have I want to hear that from you Mr. Vernon Jones, is that idea a lot of complaints and therefore you're thinking it's feasible for cadre investigators to do it, but I would feel more trusting and I would want the community more trusting if we had some independent investigators kind of there ready to go and to do those investigations as opposed to it being the internal investigation from the police. And then one more thing though, I have one more and then for me the other thing that I saw in terms of your what you wrote up which I thought was very good, you know, and you did a lot of great work on this was in terms of the selection of the board members. I know that you said it would be appointed by the town manager. But I would want somewhere it stated in terms of kind of like that, either the town manager would have a selection committee or something like that I wouldn't want to just appointed by the town manager, you know, I would want some type of selection and that we should get that in the document. So that then and then in that selection committee that that selection committee should also be comprised of majority BIPOC people, so on so forth so that we can make sure that will ever selected on the board are people that of course, you know know what they're talking about our, you know, majority BIPOC, and I'm going to do the work as opposed to just being appointed by one person which would be the town manager. Thank you miss for Mr Vernon Jones. Yeah, now I find these comments really helpful and I certainly agree we should write in a majority BIPOC selection committee. And I think media I well let me ask about mediation to, I certainly think a community member should only be entering the mediation if they decide they want that I think it should be totally voluntary for the community member. Does it need to also be voluntary for the officer, or can we compel an officer if it's voluntary for the community. It's just that from what I know is it just doesn't work if both people. Yeah. All right, let's write it in is that it has to be has to be voluntary for both. We know what what they do for internal affairs. I mean I think we need to have a dialogue with the police department with the chief at least about this and we'll, you know we'll learn a lot. And I don't know how many investigations there are but I think a number of members of our group of express the hope that there will, how many complaints there have been. Like I said we hope they're going to be more complaints. We hope people will be more willing to come forward. So I don't think we have any way of knowing what the, you know what the what the numbers are going to be until we, until we get into it. Thank you Mr Vernon Jones miss Pat. That's fun. As far as I know, I'm based on of a based on experience of other people to is that the chief of police is the one that handles the internal investigation. So I don't want to like go into like details but that you know is the one that you know handles that. I'm very familiar with mediation. In fact, I'm a big proponent for mediation with special education I actually always urge parents to start with mediation. I think it can be very effective like what Mr Deborah said, if both parties are willing to engage in it is voluntarily so I'm very familiar with that. In this situation, but the whole idea of in the police and resident and mediation. It's not making sense to me. It makes sense with special education it makes sense, you know, in civil right issues and I know policing is also civil right issues that you know the perception. I mean, the trauma. I don't know, you know, put it in in there just doesn't sit wet with me. Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah. It's just something about police that freaks people out. And then you want to engage with them in mediation. Basically, even though it will be voluntarily you're forcing people to this to be in the same room. You know, with complainants, you know, I think it's just traumatizing for people special education yes, civil rights issues. They use it and other areas yes, but this I'm not sure. Thank you miss Pat miss Ferrara miss Pat then do you foresee this kind of not having the mediation in there which I'm fine with to I mean I don't have an issue with it if, if, if you don't think because for me my thought would just be obviously very very low level right. So let's say, and I get what you're saying sometimes just being with the police is not low level right because people get traumatized by it but I can envision something where it is just kind of a straight community miscommunication or whatever. And, you know, and both people are willing to do it that's what my thinking was but I'm good, not including it to you know what I'm saying. Because then your your vision just kind of going through the process right investigation having kind of independent investigators that the boards. The board has right this cadre of investigators that will utilize, and then kind of going through the process, and then, and then making some recommendations at the end right, because I think that's something else to that I think we need to make sure that we're clear right in terms of, you know who's making those recommendations I think you did spell that out a little bit, Mr Vernon Jones but I think I want to look at that a little bit more intently because I haven't spent as much time on this, because I think we want to be very. If that's the process that we want to go with and not have any other kind of options then we want to make sure that we're very clear in terms of what that process is going to be. In terms of the investigation, how they engage, you know throughout the process, and then, and then, you know, the recommendations and what what who's going to be making. You know responses for for discipline, and then putting the, the, the recommendation in place, and what's going to happen. I think you did kind of say something like okay might go to the town council or whatever but we want to be very clear on that so that at the end of the day we're not wasting everyone's time because it is going to be a process right for to get from a to Z is going to be a process or if they go from a to Z and at the end of the day. The recommendations made are not in place, and it just goes dead, like, you know, especially like in terms of what happened without recommendations and stuff like that, we're going to have more of a problem on the hands than not, you know, and then the other issue that I think we need to tackle and be clear on is also confidentiality. I did like you putting it in there Mr Vernon Jones that we need to make you know to kind of go into executive session, because that's going to be very important, you know, people that are going to go through the process are going to want to be able to speak confidentially, so that they're able to, you know, go through it, and, and, and make sure that, you know, they're not going to get retaliated against and things like that so, but I'll stop there for now. Mr Vernon Jones. You know, at the end I included a list of things that I that weren't covered here yet, and one that I forgot to put in there but should certainly be there is training for the for the resident oversight board. So everything I've read recommends considerable training and an opportunity to learn, you know, how the police normally do things what, you know, what the policies, you know require, and also being trained, you know, being trained by the National Association. So I will, you know, I will keep working on that on that part of it. Yeah. Thank you, Mr Vernon Jones, Mr. Mr Ross, I, you know, are you envisioning including like bylaws for this board. At all. Would that be a bylaw. Mr Vernon Jones. I do think we need a bylaw. And, but we, we kind of have to work with the police department and, you know, maybe even the town lawyer to get a picture you know we have to decide first of all how it's going to operate. Then we write it into a bylaw and because we want to give this group subpoena power that bylaw will probably require the approval of the Attorney General of the of the state. But it seemed like the first step is to, you know, come to some agreement about what we want and we, you know, that, again, you know, like mediation there isn't an oversight board only works if there's some trust develop between the police department and the board. And I think, you know, if I write in some of the revisions you've, you know, provided tonight that it would be useful to open a dialogue. I'm not sure I'm public meeting with all of us present is the best way to do it I think for a few of us to go meet with the chief and open a dialogue and get started on seeing, you know, what are we up against and where where do we already have agreement on how it might work. But eventually yes I think all this needs to be written into a bylaw. Thank you. So I am in agreement and I just wanted to make a comment in regards to the mediation, and that I agree with Miss Pat that I don't think it would be common for a complaint into want mediation. I'm not changing the language to something like upon request of a complaint and only that mediation may be available. Mediation service. Only if they specifically requested that we would suggest that that be an option. And then so I also just wanted to go back to Mr. Vernon Jones suggestion of having a conversation with the police chief or the police department. And so I am in agreement with that statement because I also believe that in order for this to be successful they need to have a trusting relationship with the APD and so that they can really make sure that when complaints are made and when suggestions are made that things follow through into the proper manner. And so I'm wondering if everyone else in the group or what the thoughts are on that. Is there anybody who is, is anyone opposed to that idea. Miss Farera. So you're asking in terms of like, in order for things to work go smoothly, I guess I'm not clear on what you're asking that's why I didn't respond. Yeah, so I think like in order for us to really get the charge written and everything we want with the resident oversight board that it would be helpful for us to have a conversation with the police department. So I guess we don't yet have consultants on board. So just running certain things by the police chief and so how will these work with your current policies or is this possible that we can get a lot of information in a conversation like that. But then also once the resident oversight board is up and running that it would it would be important for them to have trust with each other. So having conversations beforehand I think is important but I'm wondering how you all feel about that. Okay, so I definitely agree with Mr. Ross that, you know, there has to be trust between the new board and APD and also to have a good working relationship. That's the only way the oversight board can actually be very effective. In terms of, you know, inviting APD at this point, I'm just worried about time, the workload that we have. And maybe along along the line, maybe around September to see how we're doing with our charge, you know, because I know it's been extended to November, but I just feel we have I just feel that we have a lot on our hands. So I'm assuming that Mr. Ross you are communicating with APD is that correct. I have not talked with the APD at all yet. First, I would be happy to talk with them but I'd like to have one or both of our chairs with me if I'm doing that I don't, I don't want to represent this board alone. I'm all for what you're suggesting Alicia, it's just, we have to be realistic with our time. And I know fatigue is already set it in, you know, sometimes, you know, because of our workload. So, thank you, Miss Pat, Miss Bowman. I had, excuse me. I had, I just wanted to say something because I just think, um, in general, my general feeling is I don't trust police. But I also have to take the, the, I have to look at it as like they're human. Right. And if you don't give a human a chance to make a mistake, then you never allow them a chance to grow and change. And so my kind of question is, how do we find a way to give them an opportunity to really, you know, to really come forward and make some change so like, let's say there's an incident that happened let's say we have some, they, somebody gets reported. Let's say we make a recommend, you know, let's say Crest or whatever makes some, you know, so this is a future request. Oh, they make a recommendation that this person go, you know, go see this, you know, specific therapist that has to do with like, you know, race, you know, something having to do with race relations and the history of policing and why, why they might have responded to this responded in this way and not responded to another respondent who did a similar thing in that way, whatever, whatever the case may be. And so our recommendation is that they, they look deeper into their own personal racism and so on and so forth and let's say the officer decides to do that shoot hold on. Let's say the officer decides to do that and not to get popped by oil. And, you know, and then he starts, you know, and then they're on this like probationary time and you're, you're able to, like, really see if they're like implementing those things or really take, you know, changing how they're running, how they're that personal officers doing things how they're operating. And so like, like, or is that what we're the kind of things that we're looking for with the Crest program and the resident oversight and like, are we looking to, to in a way help officers make change on how they are policing the community, our communities, or are we just like, you know, looking towards, you know, because I'm thinking about it and it's like, you know, not that I think that we should have ever but I, you know, I look at it and I'm like, well, never. I don't know that we've had anything as bad where an officer has killed a suspect or perceived suspects, you know what I'm saying. And so, I'm just wondering how, like, even though I look at the history and everything I'm wondering how, how are we going to approach this in a way that we're not necessarily lumping Amherst police officers in with, you know, officers who are out there literally killing black people, you know what I'm saying, you know, I don't, you know what I'm saying, like, we're giving these officers an opportunity to be better police officer and I don't even like police office, the name word police officers because it's bad, a bad connotation for me but like, what I'm saying is that we're allowing them to be human and be able to correct the things that they learn through going, you know, going through, you know, the all boy, the all blue whatever club whatever that's called, you know, the boys and blue whatever, like, having them reevaluate like holding them accountable for reevaluating themselves. And then from that point if they're refusing to do that then then then we're looking at harsher things or are we just looking to bring the hammer down type thing, you know what I'm saying like, I'm just trying to get a better idea of what the role is of Crest and the community was as a community responders. I forgot what the name was. The oversight board. The oversight. Yeah, I'm trying to find you know what I'm saying because like the oversight community in other places don't necessarily work, but maybe it's because like officers are so afraid of getting recommended and they're, you know, and they're, they're covering for each other type thing, you know what I'm saying but like if we make it so it's not like, look, this is just, you're just fired. It's more of like look we're recommending that you get help to understand what your role is better. And obviously it's on their bill but it's like, I don't know like I think that there, there's a way that it can be done in that progressive and holds accountability. It allows for people to grow, because I've been in situations where I've been with people who grew up and being racist and being having opinions and then upon certain interactions they those opinions started to change and they got they changed more and more once they started learning about what it really was and what it really was about. So I don't want to just close the door on people, allowing people to grow. I guess is what I'm saying so I'm just trying to understand I guess a little better. Thank you miss Roman. So I think, and feel free to correct me if I miss speaking that you're wanting to know how we will specify like disciplinary repercussions as opposed to just like termination. Yes, exactly. Okay. And so, I guess I, I haven't. A specific answer to that. I'm wondering Mr Vernon Jones, if you had any thoughts on that while writing this document. Yeah, I mean to Sheena I think you raise a really key question. You know how, because, you know it takes a relatively severe offense to get an officer terminated, which means that most of the minor offenses are going to be committed by officers who are going to continue to be officers and Amherst for a while. And this resident oversight board is, I don't think it's something we can really do in advance I think the board itself is going to have to figure out. What's the combination of sort of consequences and learning and probation and, you know what, I mean I think there has to be. The possibility of termination has to be there. But how the board handles things to get the department to do a better job and be more respectful and be an earned community trust, I think is the big job for this board to figure out. There may be situations in which an officer does something that's incorrect but when we investigate we find out that their supervisor didn't give them good guidance or may have even given them harmful guidance. And, you know, who knows whether the, you know, there may be consequences for the supervisor is, you know, maybe in addition to her instead of the online officer but I think it's a really key issue but I don't think we can figure all that out in the way we write this I think the folks who are doing it and are sure have the responsibility of implementing it are going to have to think that through. Right. I wasn't necessarily saying that we should think it through, but I think that somehow in the charge, we should, I feel like it should be acknowledged that, you know, it's when our goal or end goal is not to just be firing officers left and right and our goal is to help our officers become more productive, more community based officers versus out there police it. If that makes any sense. That's kind of where I was going like in within the charge that we're you know the charge that we're trying to get to them is to be like okay, like you need to think about different ways that you can, you can encourage officers to be better at their job. You know, while holding themselves accountable for mistakes, everybody's human we make mistakes we recognize that. So let's not continue to make mistakes let's be better type thing. Thank you miss Bowman. And then I'm wondering, I also agree with miss Bowman that then we should probably indicate something like that in there that that we would hope, or that we would leave it to the resident oversight board to. You know, determine the range of disciplinary repercussions. Mr Vernon Jones. I took notes while Tashina was talking and I'll be happy to work on some language to see if we can. And Deborah has her hand up. Mr era. Yeah, I mean, I mean I hear all that but I think. I mean for me like when I when I think about resident oversight board, I really think about a board that's there right because complaints I've been going into the APD has not been answered right they have not been dealt with fairly. People feel like, you know, they're being, you know, harassed out with intimidate whatever by the police, they complain or they're intimidated complain or even complain, because nothing is going to happen right. So I think, for me, in terms of resident oversight board is to really make sure that, you know, the board is there and they have the power they're independent right there independent board, and they have the power and the way with all the kind of, you know, if a complaint has been that they are going to look at the complaint now there's going to be a level, you know, there's going to be a range right you know from those kind of like complaints that are going to be more lower range that could be what Miss Bowman is talking about more educational more this more that, but then there's going to be those that it's going to be disciplined right it's going to be and all of it could be up to including combination, you know, and I think we need to make sure that that board has that power to do that. You know, because I think that if we just come in with kind of like yeah you know kind of already putting in those those boundaries on them that hey, you know we want to make sure that they're just getting a talking to let them educate I hear it that everyone makes mistakes and stuff but they're going through training we need to make sure that obviously the training is good, they're going through training. So if they're making certain mistakes, you know, that can cost people, you know, you know, really, not their lives right not that, you know, that these that I know of that anyone's been killed but basically trauma where now they don't want to leave the house when now they afraid for their themselves and their family and things like that so I think, you know, for me anyway there's my opinion. I want to empower them to be able to kind of look at those complaints and kind of deal with them, you know, as they come in a weather be low low level low parameter and yes educational giving that that off to an opportunity, or boom, discipline, you know, I want to give them that that way with all and that yeah that power to do so I don't want to limit them and say well let's give these officers, you know, one chance to chance three chance, you know, I want to give them. I want to give this board the you know based on whatever investigation comes in right because we're going to be looking into it these these independent investigators will be looking into it. They make, you know, those kind of decisions you can give them a bag of okay yes, you know, talking to verbal warning education blah blah blah yeah we can provide that but I don't want to hamper them. I want them to be able to do what they need to do, so that they they put together the right recommendation that's going to deal with it because the community wants that right because they haven't been getting that. So, I want to make sure they have that. Thank you miss Farera miss Bellman and then miss Pat. So what I was, I was kind of where I was coming from was kind of in the same room but it was like what I was thinking is that, or how I thought that this was going was that this, the resident oversight board was someplace that people could go to. First, they didn't have to do an investigation, they didn't have to bring it to the police they could bring it to the resident oversight board and the way resident oversight board will help gather them them to gather information and would present it to the police. And if that person wanted them to, and then would super oversee to make sure that they followed through with any recommendations or punishments or whatever the case, whatever the case may be with the officers involved. I'm saying so like the resident oversight board would be essentially a middleman so that people who are not comfortable talking to the police or filling it you know or making an a complaint against the police wouldn't have to go in and make a complaint they would. The oversight board would follow through and make sure that that things are getting taken. I would make sure that things are getting taken care of. But maybe I misunderstand it. Thank you miss Bowman miss Pat. So I think everybody's comments and opinion and everything I'm looking at the time, it's with almost one hour. And what I will say with what Mr Ross has created for us that he started. It's a working document, it's working progress, we will never be able to put everything that we want. You know, I read it, and I was just the feeling of wow, you know he really has spent a lot of time digging to do this. And, you know, there are some language that were very strong that will be and that will encourage people to actually want to apply. You know, language about making sure that the police union that the oversight board will not be part of the negotiation. Something that's a language that Mr Ross put in there, which I really liked. And also the fact that there will be no retaliation for members of the oversight board, I mean there's a lot of good things about, you know, the document created that maybe every week you know if somebody have something else to add on to or something that we need to move on and talk about other agenda we have tonight. Thank you, Miss Pat. Sorry, Miss Ferreira, did you want to say something. Well, I guess in terms of that I mean I do agree that obviously we have a bunch of other stuff to discuss but I guess, how do we want to proceed right because we want to obviously provide, you know, more feedback, you know, and you know like Mr Vernon Jones obviously this was a beginning document which is very good but we're all going to have you know I kind of our feedback and want to massage it some more. So I guess just timeline maybe we can figure that out and then leave this but I guess what would be by when do you want feedback so that then you know do we want to talk about it again next week, or even though I don't think I won't be at the meeting because I'll be traveling back, but whatever if you guys wanted to talk about it next week, you know when we provide feedback by then, I guess I just wanted a timeline. So Mr Vernon Jones if we could just that questions a little bit more directed at you but if we could come up with a time that maybe if there are any other suggestions that people did not get to cover tonight or that people come up with after those to you. And that I know you said you had a few notes that you were going to look into a few things, and that you could bring those proposed things to the group. I don't know if you want to come back to this next week or put it out to the following week so that you have a little bit more time to work on that or how everybody feels about that. I mean my preference frankly would be for me to write up the content of what people said tonight. And then have a couple of us go begin a dialogue with the police department it's going to be a lot of back and forth. I'm happy to take you know additional comments on what's, you know what's already written if there are things that people didn't get to say tonight or think of later. What's this Thursday I don't know noon on Monday is that. I mean, it's not our last chance it'll still be a working draft you know we'll still come back to it. But if we could say by noon on Monday we'd have anything for this first draft and let us open a dialogue with the police. But that we retain, you know will be clear in any dialogue that this is not. This is not approved by our group yet we retain the ability to make any changes but we want to get, get some something going back and forth and learn from them about what they're up against and, and dealing with this. Mr era. I would like to start with, you know, like a smaller group meeting with the police, you know, obviously, you know, reporting back and stuff. But I guess, when we do get closer to, you know, finalizing this resident oversight board document. The police, whatever it is that you all, you know, whether the submitting it to it or whatever to kind of meet with the whole group, you know what I'm saying I think it would be good for the whole group though to kind of meet with the police chief and his representatives. Before we kind of finalize everything I wouldn't want it to just be in and kind of subcommittee. Thank you miss for I'm also in agreement with that I think that's a great idea and then combining that with Miss Pats earlier suggestion that if we can make that happen. Like in late September or in October, that that would be great and that if it's okay with everybody else that Mr Vernon Jones and myself and if Brianna is available I will have to reach out to her. I would like to find a time that we can start the dialogue with the police with the police chief. Not within a meeting just in lieu of time. And does that work for you also Mr Vernon Jones. Yes, I wouldn't. I don't want us to be too explicit about when we're going to take this up, you know, I mean if we come to an agreement and want to move forward. So sooner than, you know, September or October, we might want to do it so that we can get some attorneys working on drafting the bylaw. So I'm, I agree that we ought to take on our other tasks before we come back to this but when we're ready, if we're ready, we probably would. I'd want to get it this back on the agenda so we aren't delayed in implementing it. So I think we can move to the next agenda item since we are all in agreement. That was all very helpful. Yeah, thank you Mr Vernon Jones that was an amazing first draft. I do think that we got some other drafts from miss Pat, and I was wondering if we can go over those now because we do have the traffic control draft and then also the standing committee draft. And so I would like to take a quick look at those things and so these are also going to be running drafts, these are just drafts, we are still reserving the ability to make changes to these, but we would like some input from the group. Mr Vernon Jones. Can we do the standing committee first. Yes. Sorry, I miss my son. Thank you. So actually, myself and Alicia worked on this, and when I say, you know, in anything, this is just like a draft so you guys feel free to make comments and give us suggestions. So we came up with two different names for the standing committee, equity and committee safety commission or community safety diversity and inclusion committee. You know, we don't have to come up with a name tonight. They, if you guys think about other names, let us know. And the rest of the stuff. Do I need to read it or do people just have questions. I'll give people like five minutes to read the our work. Let us know when you're done reading. If you can raise your hand, if you're when you're done reading, are people done reading. So, so basically what we did, I actually went to MS website and looked at some committees and you know how information I need to gather to for us to present tonight. And basically that's, that's what we did. Do people have questions for us. Ms. Farera. Oh, I guess I have a question. Because I think like, so it was good that you went on the website to look at and obviously like this document is good. Thank you, Ms Walker, and Ms Pat for, you know, working on it. But I guess my question is this because I see a lot of kind of like the diversity equity inclusion language in this doesn't the town have though an equity group or whatever. So I guess my thing would be, okay, what would be different from that group in this group, right, because for me what I was thinking this group would do, you know, first and foremost, and then continue forward. But the first thing would be to kind of like the purpose would be like what you all said that to ensure the implementation of all the CSWG recommendations and track progress. And then, you know, advance diversity, equity, inclusion, community safety and Amherst. I think that's kind of the key thing for me. Because then I guess it gets muddled for me is kind of the charge right provide oversight implementation of crest and diversity equity inclusion departments, because then that limits it to kind of just crest and the diversity equity departments. I was kind of still seeing the purpose as that overall purpose, and then kind of like, yeah, supporting, it could support, you know, all these, these aspects but that's the purpose so I guess for me that's my question. So that's a very good question. So, so what I understood in creating committees for what I found out on the website is when you determine what the purpose is, then you need to list what exactly with this group will be doing so we are tempted. Alicia and myself attempted to come up with some of the issues that have that we've been discussing in CSWG. And you asked a question about the equity that the town already have to me, I think that should continue, but I don't feel I don't feel that is very broad enough to be inclusive of the whole of Amherst. And so this committee, I see it like townwide. I could be wrong, maybe Ms. Moistin can clarify. I don't see it in competition, however, I see it as complimentary. I see this group as what the town needs. And I see the equity that the town government has has been complimentary. You know, I'm the one who was pushing for, you know, to have a continuity to continue to push for what CSWG has been advocating for. So we don't want to lose anything like the multicultural center, the youth empowerment center. I understand, you know, BIPOC folks being involved in the budget process and all that stuff. I mean, I don't know how else that's how I understood how you should do the charge like what is it that this group will be doing. And I hear what you're saying. Like it sounds very limiting, but this is like a sampling. And I'm happy, you know, we're happy to, you know, to get input from everybody we can reward any of the stuff. I did put in in terms of special municipality employee. What that means is that, you know, most of the committees in this town and they were about 50, about 50, you know, give and take, believe it or not. And I was looking at the names of members they are mostly retirees or, you know, Yeah, I don't recognize like, you know, residents who have like young children or working parents or single parents or I don't see too much diversity. And I think it's very imperative that if we want diversity in different committees that folks get compensated so that they can use it to pay for childcare. And if people are going to meetings, they can just order food that night instead of warring to cook and things like that. So just like says WG being given stipend. I'm, you know, we're recommending that this standing committee should also be given stipend I strongly believe that all the committees in this town should be given stipend, because we have the resources, and if people choose not to accept it, that's fine. But that's the only way you can get people to really volunteer and help out in this town. The whole idea of doing free volunteer work just doesn't sit well with me. So I, so that's what that special somewhere. Yeah. Does anybody have any concern about the membership of the group. We're recommending seven with five BIPOC folks. Well, I think this is an awesome first draft and totally appreciate the two of you working on it. I think it does a lot of a lot of the job. I wanted to ask about a couple of things, rotating to end three year terms. What, what's the reason for having both. So we said that with two year as cat stacker staggered term, and then we said a questioning like how is that going to work out, say that you know the group is from in the fall, and it's two year term, we don't want the group to be completely like everybody's time to expire in two years, like with for us to retain some members, while some in expires, and then yeah that's our thinking doesn't make sense. Yeah, when, but when someone wants it's underway, and someone gets appointed newly to the committee would they be appointed to a two year term or three year term. Two year term some people will be three year term. Well, to be both. Okay. And then my right where it says charge. Yeah, it's, it's not just that line there it's everything under that is part of the charge right. Yes, yes, please. Yes. I think, I think this would look different if it were, you know, just formatted slightly differently. Okay. Yeah, it's everything, you know, below the charge. That's correct. Yes. May I continue. Yes, please. Yeah. I'm just wondering about using the word oversight with regard to the diversity equity inclusion department. We're, you know, we're going to be hiring someone. And I want this committee to be really supporting that person. And I don't, you know, I just, I worried that somebody taking the job. Well, they, you know, they're going to have to be answerable to a lot of different people but I don't know, I just have a feeling I'd rather see it. I mean, I think it's support and assist, you know, really works. I'm not sure whether this group should be thinking of itself as one more boss of the director. So Alicia, I want to speak to that. Well, I think that we were hoping, well, because we're unsure of who the director will be right so we don't know if they're going to be coming from out of town, or if they're going to be here. And so I think that we would want them to yes number one be able to provide support services, but that they will also be able to provide sort of guidance. And so I think that's what we, I mean, maybe that that's what we mean more so by oversight so that if they're sort of, for lack of a better way to explain it veering off in a direction that we had not wanted them to go in or had not foreseen that we may be able to sort of guide them back to the original intention behind everything because we just really don't want the intention to get lost. So if I may add also, thank you, Mr. Ross for raising that the word oversight. I did think about it. And we should not assume that whoever gets this job is, we don't know what we're going to get. What if this person is status quo, we're stuck. What do we do. I think this standing committee, the whole purpose is to be supportive is very different from the resident oversight board, very, very different. So, if you read it, Mr. Ross, in the way of boss, you know, I don't like that. And thank you for your feedback. So we need to use probably another word for the oversight because it's not intention I do not want this standing committee. I don't feel like we're policing the DEI department and also the Crest department. We want to be supportive, but at the same time, I do have this lingering concern, like we don't know who we're going to get. You know, if they're just there just to keep their job and, you know, be part of the status quo. I mean that is will be a nightmare for me. Yeah. Thank you, Miss Pat. Miss Ferrara. Yeah, I mean, that was a good point that you brought up Mr. Vernon Jones. I mean, I think I was looking at it more kind of like provide or oversee the implementation of Crest and diversity equity inclusion departments. And I think we should also include oversee the implementation of Crest, diversity equity inclusion department, youth empowerment, you know, center, the BIPOC, multicultural center. You know, I think we should kind of that's how I was seeing it, and then kind of put under there, you know, like, you know, that this group should take part in meetings that in terms of creation of Crest, meetings in creation of the part, the department of equity inclusion, possibly be on the hiring committee, you know, be on at meetings for the youth empowerment. I think we could be a little bit more kind of, you know, provide a little bit more detail, like a little bit more meat in that area to kind of see, but that's kind of how I was seeing it, not necessarily providing oversight, like we're going to be supervising them, but overseeing the implementation of all of those things that we had said, and that includes also making sure that the police numbers are decreased because that was another recommendation that we put in, you know what I'm saying. So, I think we should probably kind of like be explicit in terms of what we mean so because we see right we see that if we don't kind of state it, then it's us if it doesn't exist, you know, so I think we just want to include all of those things that would be my feedback. Thank you for Miss Pat. Okay, so thank you so much for your suggestion. What I would like to see happen is, and I know we all have a lot on our plate, if people could please like comment. This is in the Word document, and just I really don't don't care just make changes you need to make, and we'll, by Wednesday next week, is that realistic for people to work to make changes, and, and then I, you know, we can refine it for next week discussion, or should we push it for two weeks. Yeah, I won't be there so obviously I will say two weeks but two weeks. Yeah, two weeks because you know Deborah we really really need your input which experiences in the DEI at UMass, and I'm hoping that you will consider applying for this committee, because I'm very interested as well I would like to apply to it too. Thank you Mr. Vernon Jones. Yes, I agree let's wait till two weeks so they're coming with us. I like though that the diversity equity inclusion language somewhere in here I'd like to work in a little more about, you know the ongoing process of dismantling systemic racism. And I want us to be careful I see where we talk about DEI and Cress employees that address the needs of BIPOC and other marginalized groups. And yes we certainly expect them to do that. For me, diversity equity inclusion, ending systemic racism really is in everybody's interest. You know, I don't, I don't see that as something the town should do just for BIPOC people. I think living in a community that you know with all the privileges and advantages that being white has, you're still living in the midst of injustice. And I think it's in everybody's interest to have a community characterized by justice. And I see this committee is ensuring equity for BIPOC folks for sure, but really trying to build a community where, where equity prevails and that that's a better community for everybody. So are you saying to take out the needs of BIPOC and other marginalized groups. I'll play with some language and see if I can be clear about it. It's not an objection. It's just a way to add to it. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Vernon Jones. Okay, so I think Ms. Pat has stated that if everyone could get their comments in by next Wednesday. In two weeks, in two weeks. So in two weeks, the Wednesday, the following Wednesday. Yeah. Okay. Okay, great. And then can we please move and pull up Ms. Moisten the draft for the traffic control. So Brianna actually did most of the work. And did people have time to read this? Or should I just explain. Okay, somebody said, okay, so the key take away from this is that we want the traffic control completely taken out of APD department. It should be part of press. And we're also recommending that there will be no ticketing, because it isn't, you know, it will. It's an incentive sometimes for APD folks who wants to punish BIPOC folks. So that would be no more incentive. Pulling people over. We do not want. We know that we have a parking enforcement officers right now and they're under APD. I think they should be, we think that they should be under press. And we, in addition to addressing critical traffic control, we also will like the town to also address pedestrian safety, as well as, you know, that are like, you know, behavior in on the street or something to be able to have responders come up and also enforcement of traffic. Of traffic violation, we don't, you know, instead of ticketing, we will like to see alternative to ticketing, such as making donation to charities. Or people can volunteer to non-profit organization instead of paying ticket. It's what we're recommending, whether that will fly or not, we don't know. And I think Breanna was suggesting about creating a pedestrian safety committee just like in Seattle. So I don't know if people have questions and we have like, you know, you know, the use of camera is like mixed bag, you know, are they only going to use it for traffic alone and you know, what will be the locations to put surveillance camera. And we don't want the traffic control agent to be armed. They have to be completely unarmed. And so that's basically what it is. And then helping, you know, drivers who are in need of, you know, like if you get pulled over because of brake light. Obviously, maybe that person doesn't have money to fix their brake light. Why give them a ticket? Why not help them? Actually, it's actually happening in Georgia. There's a particular community where the police department over there will actually refer people to a place where they can get their brake light fixed instead of giving them tickets. So I would like to see that kind of model here, or maybe try to find a way to get funding to do that. That's it. I got caught off. What's going on? Okay, I'm, we're still here. I am. I can see what happened. That's weird. We can see you and we can hear you. I'm going to call him. Now we can't but we can see you, Miss Pat. I can't see anyone. What happened to me? That is so weird. Okay, other people can be talking because I can. So, yeah, I mean, I was really excited about this document. I want to say, you know, thanks so much for working on it. As you all know, that was one of the things that I kept on kind of putting on the list. When we were going through kind of crest in the first part of a charge because I didn't want that to kind of be left off. I also agree. I also agree that traffic, you know, violations, traffic stops are things where, you know, BIPOC people get profile, get harassed, and can lead to, you know, a lot of trauma and harassment and issues down the road. You know, obviously, as we've seen in other parts of the country, it leads to death here. Thankfully it hasn't, but who knows if things stay the same. Who knows where it could lead, right? So for me, that is a, you know, a big part of what I think needs to change. So I'm excited about all these different ideas that you all, you know, put together on this document. I think I'm excited about just kind of like looking at it. I mean, I only had a little bit of time, so I want to kind of think process it a little bit more and then, you know, you know, provide my feedback. One of the things that I think would be helpful, and I think you guys did it when you did in the pedestrian section. And then you just talked about it, Miss Pat, when you said in Georgia there was, you know, there's a project there that the police are people to kind of get their tail light fix and everything because I'm a total agreement of that. I mean, why give someone a ticket, you know, or I'm in an agreement of like if you stop someone and it should be by, you know, another group that is unarmed, right? If you stop someone, why, you know, like in terms of as opposed to a ticket where it goes to the, to the APD, you know, maybe to a nonprofit or that they volunteer themselves at another place. I'm in agreement with that too. I think what we want to do because we saw what happened with the first part of a charge especially with crest is just kind of provide if we do have it places where, you know, areas where data right where others have done things beforehand, and kind of provide that information I think where we can provide more of that, even though some of it's going to be unique to us and I get that, you know, but wherever we have more information that can provide more kind of support and data for why we're recommending this, and where, you know, other areas that have tried it and done it and it's been successful. I think, you know, be helpful but I'm in total support of kind of what you all put in this and obviously providing more feedback and massaging it some more. Thank you. Thank you miss for Mr. Vernon Jones. Sorry, rest of your muted. Yeah, thank you. I think this is a really important area and I really I love a lot of the ideas in here. I agree with Deborah I, I think we have a lot to learn from what else is being done across the country. You know I mean before we started even thinking about writing a Crest proposal we spent a month or two reading articles and talking about what we read and what we liked about what we read and what we didn't like. And I think this is, you know, this may be more controversial and a bigger change and I think we really need to do our homework and I'd love for us to start trying to define articles and find articles and share them with each other and see if we can't really dig in and and do something very significant here. I think this is a great start, but I think we, it's, it's a big task and we shouldn't, we should, we should begin immediately but not, not try to get to an endpoint before we've really done our research. Thank you for your comment and I think everything we're doing is revolutionary. It's going to be controversial. And whether it's oversight board whether it's the standing committee whether it's traffic control. You know, that's going to be significant you know significant changes in this community so I agree with you the more we get backup for our recommendation the more credible we will be. I completely agree. We need to dig in and do more research. Absolutely. Thank you Mr. Vernon Jones and thank you Miss Pat for working on this document. I also just had very briefly to, to go over it but I think this is a great start. I think it gives us a lot more to look into like Mr. Vernon Jones was saying. And so I'm wondering at this point how you would like to move forward with this document. If you would like for all of us to look into our own things and come back or if that's something that you and Brianna would like to take on or how we can help you. Or how we can as a group move forward in developing this document because I think there is going to be a little more research that has to go. I mean, Brianna and myself we can start compiling, you know, relevant articles and if people run into something please feel free to share with everyone. So, maybe in two or three weeks we can revisit the traffic control thing to give us enough time to see what we can put together. I definitely strongly feel that we have to have backup with everything that we're recommending. Otherwise, you know, we will get lots of pushback. We're going to get pushed back anyway, in that way, with what we're doing. So. Okay, thank you Miss Pat. I think, I think we're in a good place with the beginning of these drafts. I think at this time these are the only drafts that we have. And so I was just wondering if we could come back to. Are these the only subcategories that we decided people were working on. I know we also had. No, it's not. The police policies and community policing. No, no, no, no. So we agreed to do for teams, the oversight board, the traffic control, the standing committee and community policing. I don't think anyone volunteered for the community policing. So it's something that we probably need to talk about like, are there people interested in working on this on that. Yeah, so we so we have community policing and police policies. And so I think that we should figure out how we would like to approach these topics as a group. Just because the possibility of having a consultant is still up in the air at this time. And so until we receive final word on that I would like to proceed as if we do not have a consultant. So I'm wondering how everyone thinks we should approach these things because at this point we have a few good drafts that we're putting off for two to three weeks. And so maybe if we could get some ideas going on these two subcategories that we can look over for next week's meeting that that might be a good idea. I'm just not quite sure how you all would like to approach those two topics. I'm Mr. Vernon Jones. As far as I can tell the term community policing gets used in a lot of different ways by a lot of different people. And I want us to be careful about talking about the term I'd rather we talk about what is it we do want and what is it we don't want. We don't want over policing by communities. So I think the more we can specify that the better, but probably we ought to do a little reading about community policing and, you know, what are the different elements of it and can we pick and choose can we have the things we like without having the things we don't like. I know I haven't, I haven't examined this thoroughly but I know there's something about it in the in the President's report on 21st century policing from the Obama era. I think that document 2015 and there's something in the other big thick report that we looked at when we were first starting about Cress, but I don't actually know the best, the best source for it. Thank you, Mr. Vernon Jones, Miss Ferrara. Yeah, I think like, I think that's what I would want to start with would be Mr. Vernon Jones if you can kind of like share again, you know those kind of these those two documents and stuff, so that we can kind of pinpoint and like you said I think we all at least for me I know I need to kind of read up on that, and obviously look at the seventh gen report to because I know they shared some information they might have shared also some other kind of resources or maybe, you know, or even maybe we could even follow up with what was their name, I forgot their name that did a lot of that research around community policing just just in terms of just sharing resources with us right that we could kind of read up because that's what I would want to do is kind of read up more on it, and then be able to kind of, you know, share, like to work on on something after that, you know. Thank you, Miss Ferrara. I'm in agreement with that so I'm wondering if for next week's meeting, if we have time, if you all have time to read up on. I think Terry we do have some documents from Terry and some research from seven Jen already that we can just brush up on go over if you need some independent research as well that's fine not required. And that also in terms of the other topic which was police policies that maybe we might be able to identify specific policies that we would like to look into, or like I either use a force policy if that's something we want to start looking into specifically so that because I don't think we'll, we'll have time unless we get a consultant to go over all of them. But if we can pinpoint some specific ones that we want to look into right now that that might be something else we can discuss at next week's meeting and that we can maybe have some more information on that Mr Vernon Jones. Sorry, Mr Vernon Jones you're muted. I don't think it's exhausted but in that document about, but it's in the IFB that we drafted but also in the document that I sent originally that Jennifer pulled up first tonight about agenda items I think there's a list of about four or five policy areas that stood out to me from our conversations and other things that I've read. It's, as I say it's not exhaustive it may not be the most important ones but it was something that seemed to be a particular location where racial profiling happened. Yes, thank you Mr Vernon Jones so I have those the use of force consents search pretextual stops police overtime. Yes, actually this is a pretty good list. And I think that. So I'm not sure if you guys just we want we should do research or if we should organize Miss Pat. A couple things. What I remembered you know I have to go back to my notes I don't have it on me, but I thought we only talked about community policing as topic that we're going to look into the police policies I feel is so broad that realistically it's a something we really want to get into or push it for the consultant to do and I'd like to hear from Mr Ross and from Alicia at the outcome of meeting with the with Mr Tony Delaney, did you guys meet with him in terms of you know how we're moving forward with that. Sorry, thank you Mrs Pat. So we were not able to meet with Mr Delaney he's very busy right now but we do have a meeting scheduled with him for tomorrow. So we should have more information for you all next week. And in conversation with Mr Bachleman we were able to submit to Mr Delaney some preliminary questions that we do have and some of the information that we're looking for beforehand so that hopefully he'll have those answers for us tomorrow. Thank you. Thank you miss Pat and yeah so I think we did decide that the policies we would leave to the consultant group, but I just wasn't sure if we wanted to discuss if we are unable to retain consultants or if that is a little bit further down the road than what we had liked if we wanted to start getting something or organizing that in a way that we can look into a bit beforehand. Yeah and then Mr Bernie Jones. You know, I can't speak for other people. I'm just feeling we need to really be careful as to what we can or cannot handle. I think, you know, committed policing, we work on and other other three sub groups that we're working to do a total job on that very well. If we get consultant to do the policies I just, I don't know I'm looking at this I'm feeling overwhelmed already. So, you know, use of police alone will take a lot. What does that mean it mean different into different people people will say yeah, police have not killed anybody in our midst. And that's not how some people say it. You know you don't have to kill somebody to use use of force for example, you know consent, you know I just look at this stuff like it will take forever for us to like pull it together doing researches research to back up our recommendation or what our findings. It will take a lot. I'm just yeah. Yeah we're stretching ourselves thing right now. So our workload we all have, you know, have in our regular jobs, whether we you know we want you know we stay home. Taking care of our families that's a lot of you know it's a more than four time job, you know, for some people who work outside the home, we have to be realistic, please. Thank you miss at Mr Vernon Jones. Well, I certainly agree with Ms back that we don't want to over commit ourselves or drive ourselves into the ground. And, even if we get a consultant. We're going to need to give them some guidance about what kinds of policies is it that we want them to research I mean, you know, there must probably 1000 or at least certainly hundreds of policies in the police department. This list was for me was the ones that I've read about or heard about being particular locations of racism being enacted, depending on what the policy was. I thought even if, even if we're going to have a consultant, it'd be, it'd be great if we could identify where we want, where that we want the policy to look the consultant to look at policies. Use of force there is a, what I think is a quite strong model policy produced by campaign zero. It might be all language and everything that I think, you know, has, you know, it doesn't answer everything and, of course, but it's a strong model that's been looked at by a whole lot of people and gone through a lot of revisions and that that might be all we, we wanted to do on that. But yeah, let's not, let's not commit to doing all this, but let's if we can develop a list of what we would want a consultant to do that might be helpful. Thank you, Mr. Vernon Jones, Ms. Ferreira. Yeah, I mean, I think that's, that's what I would think to it's just kind of like I know that obviously it's just a lot of work and short amount of time. But for me, like for instance, when I look at this list, yeah, it does look overwhelming but I think like for me like top ones for me anyway would be like use of force, consent searches, sexual stops, anti bias and how to practice anti racism and the training, you know, for me anyway, those would be the top ones, you know, so I think if we just kind of like maybe look at, you know, kind of put a top five or something like that. It might not look as daunting and then, you know, even when a consultant comes on board maybe prioritize those right if you do a top five of prioritizes will be the first second third fourth fifth to go into. Then it might seem more manageable to kind of take on. Yes, I honestly feel that we should not be, you know, discussing training for APD. You know, they're doing training training doesn't change anything. I don't think we should be, you know, doing that. That's just my opinion. It has not changed anything that is funding for them to do training. Thank you, Miss. Miss Ferreira. Yeah, but remember, Miss, I mean, for me, I really think though we have to focus on training because it's so going to be APDs like they're still going to be the police there they're still going to be dealing with violent, you know, crime and stuff unless we get rid of APD and it's right and that's not that hasn't been our recommendation. Our recommendation has been to kind of decrease some, you know, you know, take away obviously a lot of them in terms of doing what press is going to be doing and obviously if we transform the traffic violations and we take that away, it will limit them but it still doesn't get rid of all of APD unless I'm wrong. Right. So if they're still going to be APD there we need to make sure that whoever's in there is going to be people, you know, hopefully some BIPOC people. You know, in terms of diversity, so they're hiring practices, and also that they are trained. I hear you because you know training isn't obviously the ultimate effectiveness, but I think we could do more in terms of the type of training. Who's providing their training, because a lot of times it's just bringing one of the male people in there, you know, they're not bringing someone like a seventh gen, or like, you know, can appeal let's say all the folks that we know, they're going to bring in tried and true type of things, and they're not doing long term stuff. You know, they're doing the one and done, check off the box, you know, that's not going to do anything, but if you're kind of working with them on a long term. You know, we need to try something because if we just leave them to their own kind of ideas and their own training, the ones that are there that are going to be responding to violent crime are still going to be doing things that we don't want them to do. Okay. Yes, go ahead miss. So what I'm trying to say is that whether or not we recommend training that is always budget in a PD that does training. Do I really want to spend my time discussing recommending procedures. How are we sure that they're going to implement our recommendation. The question we need to ask ourselves, is it also with that supposed to do this or is it the oversight board that could come up with the recommendations, we have a lot on our plate, we need to prioritize, you know, what we cannot cannot do. So police officers are constantly being trained that is budget for that is required for them to do it. So it's just the timing do we have enough time to spend on procedures of training. It's a something we need the oversight board to do. I'm not against, you know, police training, they're going to do it whether, you know, whether we like it or not that will always be trained. I looked at the current budget fiscal year, they have, you know, good amount of money for training. But I'm not thrilled that we're going to be spending time discussing procedure for training for police when we have other matters topics that we should be working on is my point. If we're if this is like one year project. Yes, I said let's let's give them, you know, recommendation for procedures for training, but we don't have enough time we really don't have enough time we have to be realistic what we're putting on our plate to do. Thank you miss. Miss Ferrera and then miss Bowman. Yeah, I mean I agree with you miss Pat, I mean, you know, I think what we landed on is that this should be a list for consultants, you know, if we get consultants if it's us. Yeah, I think we're going to run out of time and I'm going to be able to do it. I hear you in terms of them having funding but remember whatever they've been using their funding to just bring in kind of run of the mill trainers, you know, I mean the type of trainers that the type of, you know, how intense and how long you work with with with people. It makes a difference, it might not get us to the end point we want them to get because obviously, you know that that's something different sometimes when people are already ingrained in the way that they are they're going to stay that way and change not going to change them. But I think to leave them to their own devices where they just they have the funding and so they're bringing in whomever just to check off a box. That's not good to you know, it's not what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, but that's you know what I'm just saying in terms of like when when you're saying well I guess then I don't know what you're saying I guess I'm, then yeah. It's not what I'm saying. Yeah, it's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that do we have enough time to actually spend trying to come up with procedures of you know that you know the right training for police. What I'm saying, you know, is it our board is it our group that that should be doing that when we have other topics to discuss should we leave it for the oversight board, or to the consultant. Can I just say something for the sake of time is where I'm coming from for the sake of time. I just, I just need to excuse myself for a moment and I'm going to shut my camera off but I won't be here. Okay, thank you. And yes, I've proceed miss Bellman. Um, so I don't think that that's what Miss fear I was saying, I think what I think the recommendations were like, Okay, these are the type top, say five things that we want the oversight board to be aware of and to be figuring out how to address. Um, as part of their charge, I don't think she's necessarily saying it's part of our charge I think she's saying the details are part of their charge, but I think we need to come up with a couple things that very much affects the BIPOC community, like, you know, um, you know, what their policies are for, you know, trainings, and who they're getting to train I think that something that's oversight board should be, or look or crest or whatever should be. They should be making the recommendations like, Okay, one of the things that the CSWG wants us to look at is who is doing your training. And now we're going to look at who is doing your training, and we're going to recommend somebody else to do your trainings because whoever's doing your trainings right now is not doing the job that needs to be done for this community for this time in a time of day or whatever. I don't think that all the details are there so I don't think what Miss Fiera is asking or mentioning is putting too much more on our play I think it's just a matter of saying. Okay, these top five things are really important. And maybe we can look at more down the line or maybe the press program to look at more down the line, but we want them to address these things first we want a training to be addressed and who's going to be doing the training We need that address now. We need, you know and along the training goes with the history because I've talked about history many, many, many times about how a lot of these officers don't even understand the back story of policing. Like, they were slave catchers that's what police did they caught slaves to return to masters that's what the job was. By any means like dead or alive a lot of times you know, um, and so I think that there's, there's definitely. I think there is a list that needs to go and be passed on I just don't know if that, like, yeah I just don't, I don't think that that should be something that just gets put on just given to this other board I think that we need to, we need to because these are things that directly affect communities of color. So, I think we do need to say hey, we need you guys to look at these and make good recommendations as far as how to handle these situations before they happen, like, proactively, you know. So that's, I, and if I'm totally off bat, Miss Farah just tell me because I that's just what I was hearing. Thank you miss Bowman, Miss Farah and then miss Pat. Yeah, I mean the only thing that I was saying was that a consultant that's only change was a consultant or yeah I'm fine with getting it to the oversight board to I don't have a problem with that. But yeah but I think we do need to identify so I agree with what Miss Bowman was saying we do need to identify it we do need to kind of state it because it's important especially around the type of training they're getting because the training they've been getting has been terrible and hasn't changed so I think we even if it's to hand it off to either consultant or the oversight board whatever you all decide I'm fine with, but we do need to identify those it doesn't have to be us dealing with it but we need to identify it. If I may. I know, perhaps some of the training that APD have been having, maybe some of them are not that great, but I also am aware, all of us are aware that they've also received training from very, you know, good trainers and no change. Mr. Rosvenin just have, you know, been a consultant to APD. And that's no change. So, I mean, I'm all for like, you know training officers, even if it's seven gen training them, they're not going to change. It's not going to change is what I'm saying, but yeah, I'm not going to label the issue but you know, it's not they're not going to change. Doesn't matter who delivers it. I'm very convinced about that. We cannot agree to disagree everybody. You know, yeah, you know, and I hear you miss Pat, I mean, my thing is, you know, with the ones that are left there that I'm going to be taken over by Cress or aren't going to be replaced by this traffic control group, you know, whoever's going to be, you know, we still need to do what we can make those recommendations right to put the pressure right that they get the right training and even and I don't know what Mr. Roosevelt and Jones did because I know obviously whatever he did he's a good trainer but it has to be long term it can't be a one and one and done or even a weekend or one week because that's a lot of the training that happens and I know some of the other. I have other, you know, colleagues that have done some training with APD, but it's kind of like one a hour day, I can't be that you know I'm saying it has to be long term. You know, for me if they're going to be there we need to ensure that they get at least, you know, long term training by good people that are anti anti racist anti white supremacist, you know, that are going to be there teaching them because I think a lot of them they're only getting how, how can we be diverse how can we be inclusive like nicey nicey no we need to deal with how can you start being about white dominance, you know, you know whiteness dealing with a white privilege how can you be actively anti racist, not white supremacist I mean we need to be it needs to be that type of training, you know, and I don't think they've gotten that. Is that true? Is that true right? If they did they got it like maybe a couple of you know like for a day or two and that's not going to do anything I'm sorry it won't. Thank you Miss Pat and Miss Ferrera and Mr. Vernon Jones. I have done no training with the Amherst police department. I've never had an opportunity to do training with the Amherst police department. There was a time about three years ago when Sid Ferrera and Barbara Love and I had a conversation with the chief about doing the kind of training Deborah is talking about. The chief never took us up on it and I've never had any opportunity whatsoever to work with them. Okay, I misunderstood thank you for getting that out. Thank you. I don't claim that my training works magic anyway but you know I never got a chance to try with the department. Oh but you had the conversation I think that's what it is. Okay. Thank you Mr. Vernon Jones. Miss Bowman has her hand up and then if I might make a comment. Okay I'm unmuted there you go. So, and maybe Mr. Vernon Jones will be able to back me up on this. But when you're doing work, when it comes, when you're doing work when it comes to racism and when you're doing work when it comes to being conscious of, you know, your, of systemic racism, and so on and so forth. That work is definitely a daily job. Excuse me. It takes a while to start learning to hold yourself accountable on a regular basis of things that are causing stripe and other people's life that is not, that is not, you know, it's not acceptable. So, I say this to say that I think it's important to remember that when the, when trying to make, when we're trying to make recommendations, or when we're trying to point out certain things, like trainings is that, like Miss Vera said, like, you can't do it, you can't do an eight hour training and think you're going to undo all the racism that you ever, you know, you ever participated in the out there in the world you have to do you have to have daily recognitions you have to understand microaggressions you have to understand. You know, words, you have to understand words in a way that you may not have understood before. Because wording. Also, there's a lot of things, you know, with wording, God, TikTok has taught me so much. But, um, you know, there are things that like we don't, we don't think about that we use in our everyday language that are very, very racially charged and really, really messed up. And so it's daily work, and it's like how are we going to hold, or how are we going to teach. It is important for us to find a trainer or help encourage Amherst police department to find trainers that are very versed in. systemic racism and how it works into our everyday lives and how it works into a police officers everyday life because it's going to work a little differently into their life. Because of their the role, the power dynamic that they play. So that's like we're looking for something that's something that we, I would say that we'd need, we would need to look for we would need to put as part of the charge for track for crests to look to be like hey, you know, here's a list of trainers that are who trained police officers who are very versatile in systemic racism and how that plays out in the police force. You know, oh, who are you looking at, why are you looking at them what's causing you to look at this person versus this person, what's causing you to give this person a break versus this person, that stuff is really really important. What it is, is that Miss Pat I understand that you're like it's not going to work and no it doesn't because we keep doing these small little like workshop be like, oh one day hit it and quit it type things. What we need to be telling crest is that they need to find something that's sustainable this person is part of the organization this person is part of this and is daily holding people accountable, looking over people's police reports and being like, okay, here's where you are showing your racist behavior, here's where you're showing systemic racism, because in this police support this report, this is what you said, this is how you describe this person or this is how, you know, or this is how you approach the situation, but how could you have handled it differently that's that's accountability that's holding people accountable and there needs somebody there needs to be somebody in that building that's holding other officers accountable hey. So, there are 17 parties, you only arrested the people at the party that was predominantly people of color, can you explain that to me. What made you do that, what made this party so much different than this other party. Oh, that's interesting because we got six rate charges from this party, but we didn't get any rate chart you know rate charges from this party, things like that. You know, so it's, and that's just that's just because I live in Emerson have dealt with UMass and all their crap, but you know, but, but I think you understand where I'm going is that this needs this this. Excuse my child that was my child who just did that get away from me please I'm on this call right now. Um, but that was recorded they can't see you go away. Um, but yeah so I think you guys get where I'm kind of going with this like, we can't just give a charge of like, oh, you should, you should recommend training no you should recommend somebody to be hired on the department, who is trained in ABC and D, who is there to help hold the officers accountable, kind of like indefinitely, at some point we would hope that their job kind of becomes obsolete, because the officers are starting to hold themselves accountable, and they're training their young, they're training incoming rookies to hold themselves accountable. Okay, stop talking. I'm just going to say something very similar and I just didn't know if I had missed that piece when I stepped away for a moment that, you know, instead of one of the things that they could do instead of hiring anybody if that's their plan or not or just add to their budget is to hire someone who's a trainer who just is a I don't know if there's one that's a police officer, but someone who's going to be there in this to do exactly what Toshina has just suggested. It's very the things that happen sometimes throughout town, every department's culture is different every building's culture is different here, and the things that just didn't happen at PD but it happens in another department where somebody had said something like oh shut up you're lazy but they said it, and they said well that's what I say to everybody but they don't understand you can't necessarily say that to everybody, right, because everybody takes it differently so you need someone who kind of gets in understands that, or has familiarity with the culture that's in there to help best be able to to stop it and the best way to do that is to have someone inside of the department and so I think that Toshina had very valid points and saying that they just need to hire an onsite trainer lots of places do it like that person's there to do exactly what she said. Would that be the role of the director. I'm so you know I would say for any other department. Yes, but the PD is it's it's I mean word CSWG is specific and I would say that you need to put it as a recommendation is was my key point was that that should be the recommendation is that they have a trainer onsite and your DEI director is not going to be able to focus so much on the PD to that degree you need somebody who's going to be in there right to there's so much work to be done across the board here when it comes to DEI work right and all the departments and all of the town buildings and all the town spaces, but the PD needs its own and the strength of that look at we're trying to reform it to a different degree than we are everyone else like we don't have. We have issues where we're micro aggressions and implicit biases affect the people that come into our town spaces but the ones that happen at the PD level are just hit our community in a different way than coming into town hall and you know, they're just a new attitude right that's one thing but going and being harassed by police officer being retaliated by police officers on a whole other level. So if you have somebody that's kind of in there and I would you know that's a great idea for a recommendation to kind of help with that training because I will say that Deborah is right you can't just do a training once or once a year or twice a year or three times a year and I agree with Tashina. It's like our work, the American way is so embedded in that white space that it know they can't see any other way like I do a simple fundamental training here with all the staff and the hardest thing for everybody to get over is the fact that we're in white space. Right. So it's it's, they need someone who can just work with them, I would say. Thank you miss moison. Um, yeah, so I just want to say I agree with that comment and miss bowman's comment that I actually think that's a great idea as one of the recommendations because looking at your own biases and being able to address those and in yourselves and then therefore in your work is an ongoing task that needs to be done throughout the day every single day. It needs to be constantly reviewed by yourself and that takes a lot of accountability and knowledge which they may not have and so therefore would need somebody else to be able to do that. And so I think that that is a good recommendation to have somebody on site who that is their specific job. What I wanted to speak to just in terms of the training. I do see Mrs. Pat's suggestion that in lieu of time we not dive deep into that. And I think we can do a combination of things and like numbering them and then setting them aside to if the consultant group if we are able to retain consultants and that they have time that they can look into these things. And if they don't have time or we don't get a consultant group that then these are the five that we passed down to the resident oversight board and asked them to review it. And in terms of thinking that training should be one of those things. I also do agree that training hasn't proven to do anything or to be effective at all in the past, but that if we were, if we had the ability to, because there are set of trainings that are required right and so if there's any or any ability to change the required trainings that all officers receive, or if they could say like, they have two trainings to choose from and this is the one that they give. Maybe the other one would have been better that those are some suggestions and recommendations that then they can make in regards to training, and not necessarily that they would would suggest more training, but that it would be within the that is already budgeted for in the police department. That was how I was thinking about it and but that I am an agreement that that's not something that we should really focus on unless we have the time to. So, I'm wondering if everyone is okay with Deborah's suggestion in terms of numbering the policies that Mr Vernon Jones said but that then just setting them aside, until we either have consultants, or until we have the time after we have completed the other major topics that we are working on right now. I would suggest that maybe next month, but for us to focus on the three topics that we're working on, and also researching on community policing. And then maybe, you know, towards the end of August then we figured out where we are at to see if we can take on the five popular topics from the list that Mr Russ has listed. I'm not opposed to any of them. I'm just worried that I'm already sensing fatigue on some people. So, we're all human beings. So we have other lives too. Thank you miss Pat Mr Vernon Jones. Yeah, I'm inclined to agree that we ought to focus on these things that we've identified including community policing. And that yes we may need to pick five at some point or not, but I wouldn't try to pick five now I mean the work we do over the next month may change our minds about what we think is is most important. Let's just leave the list sit there. Yeah, if anybody gets any ideas you can add to it. And if we get time to work on it we can pick our top five then I would be my recommendation. Good morning Jones miss Ferrara. Yeah I just don't want it to leave off the list though you know I just think that we put it down by the end of August and then what if we don't want to visit again. So I just think that we need to make sure we put it on the list so that it doesn't fall off the list because we are going to be very busy, because I still think that it is important for us to enumerate this list, whether it's for the consultant or the board is going to be key for us to put in some of that information. I just don't want it to be fall through the press. Maybe the energy will be different after summer. It's just, it's what comes with summer maybe September people will be filling up back to normal routine and you know, maybe you know the energy will be different, but yeah. So I'm in agreement I think that's okay to put it aside for now but we will come back to it miss Ferrara. I will make sure to keep that in the front of my thinking. And so with that, I would like to move to the next part of our agenda. Oh no, I thought you were going to jump. Sorry, so I was going to say that this the last item is feedback from part one I'm I don't think unless anyone else has the need to discuss that right now that that's something that we need to talk about right this minute. However, yes, Mr. Vernon Jones. I'm hoping we would have at least a brief conversation about the email from Briana about the situation with her roads. Yeah, so I did have the audience by the way. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Vernon Jones. I just, I did have three small topics that was one of them that I wanted to bring up in things that we did not anticipate within 24 hours of the meeting. So that segues perfectly and that was the first thing that you just went mute. So I know that Briana was able to forward you all email communication from Mr Rhodes who is interested in having a meeting with us and so I wanted to engage the the interest of the group or feedback in terms of that if you all had time to read that email to know how you would like for us to move forward. Miss Ferrara. I would say like because when I read that Briana said that if we do decide to meet with Mr Rose, it would be good to just kind of meet with him. You know, not to take up our meeting to meet with him. I think that I would be more in agreement with that and doesn't have to be all good because obviously if it's all of us and would have to post it and it would be a public meeting. So I think, you know, maybe two people, you know, meet with him, you know, I'm fine with that, you know, that would be my opinion and not to take up a meeting because we have too much other work to get to. Thank you, Miss Ferrara. Miss Pat. So I will agree with Briana about not doing it during a regular meeting because we have so much to cover. But I think as many, many, and many members who can make it, maybe setting up an hour meeting, it cannot be more than an hour meeting. So I think we should be part of that meeting because I know I was the one who started the conversation. So I do agree that we, you know, if he's inviting to meet with that group, Briana and any other person that Briana chooses, I think, you know, we should honor that that's part of, you know, we're doing public service. Thank you, Miss Pat. Mr Vernon Jones. Oh, I'm sorry, Miss Bowman. I also see your hand up after Mr Vernon Jones. Yeah, we can have three members meet with each other or with or without any violation the open meeting law, and I think I would recommend that that we have three people. For me, it's not just a matter of how much work we do. It's also, I think it's the kind of conversation that is better held not in an open public meeting. So, you know, go back and forth and try to come to at least an understanding of each other's positions if not to agreement. Thank you Mr Vernon Jones miss Bowman did you still have a comment you wanted to make. Yeah. Um, so I'm going to be the Debbie downer and this whole thing. I don't think we should meet with them. I don't think we should meet with him because we have a lot of other work to do. I don't think we should meet with him, because he had an opportunity to come and meet with us, or come talk to us before he went in a public, in a public space, and trash us tracks the work that we've been doing with not with not having any real interaction with any of us. So I don't think we owe him anything. And I think that by us meeting with him we are wasting valuable time taking care of the things that we're left to take care of, when we are on a run a time clock. He's had plenty of opportunity that he could have come and he could have talked to us and he could have reached out to us and he could have done it in in in a private matter as on top of it. So now he's forcing us hand our hand to have a private conversation with him. Because reality is, is that if we have to, if we want to have, if you want the whole group involved that it has to be a public conversation. And it just for me it just it does not feel it feels, it feels, it does not feel good. It gives me a bad taste in my gut, a bad feeling in my gut, does not feel good, because you wanted he wanted to be public with us. And now he's coming at the end of coming towards the end of our, our thing and we're, we're already rushing as it is in a lot of ways to get certain things out there and certain things done. And now we're being interrupted to have this conversation with this person who couldn't even have the decency to talk to us privately. He had to put us on blast to other other boards in this town. Other committees in this town with his disdain. I am not for this at all. I am not for wasting our time with this person. He had plenty of time to come to us. And he didn't he decided to blast us and then be like okay well I guess I'll have a conversation with you come on. Seriously, we got other stuff that we need to take care of. If we are going to sit and talk with him, I think it should be in a public, in a public space. I really do, because I think it's very important for it not to be behind closed doors. I think it's very important because you. It's just that it goes again to one of these things where it's like. Well yeah I know he did it to us publicly but we don't have to go back and do you know what sometimes. It needs to happen in a public place it needs to happen in, in, in a place where it's like people can hear our arguments people can hear what we're defending ourselves against because he did not allow that really for us. When he put those letters when he put that letter out there. He put his opinion out there and and trashed us in the way he trashed us, and then was like you know, and it did not back us and did not want to hear our voices before he went and trashed us really to a bunch of white people. Because that's what happens. And I'm sorry if you like, I know I might be like upsetting people but that's exactly what happened he trashed us to a bunch of white people who do not have our best interests in their hands. So that's my opinion. Thank you miss Bowman I think I saw Miss Pat and then Miss Ferrara. So, I have what you're saying Tashina, and I, I get your perspective, Mr Ross. We should all remember that we're a public body group, meaning we're bound by open meeting law. Mr, Mr road, you know the letter that he the email that he's saying was public record that was sent to some members of the town council and the time manager. I think because we serve this is the public service we serve the community, and we have a committee member who we may not agree with I think we should offer her that courtesy to, you know, if you weren't really wants to meet with us, but I will not support private meeting at all. I kind of agree with Tashina that it should be a public meeting. And let's hear him out. You know who knows, you know, we may not, you know, we may agree to disagree but he's reaching out. He wants to talk more he wants to probably explain himself where he's coming from. And it would be an opportunity for to have a dialogue so I'm all for that. Perhaps what I would like to suggest is maybe get a neutral person to facilitate the meeting because he feels that CSWG attacked him so I think it would be good to have somebody to facilitate the meeting. You know, when we set the time, and I hope it will be convenient for him. Perhaps maybe Miss Mustang can facilitate the meeting or something like that. I don't know whether he included you as you know, part of the people who were upset with him, but I, I am pushing for public meeting with him, we should meet with him and it should be public. Thank you. Miss Pat, Miss Ferreira. So, you know, I agree with, you know, Miss Bowman, in terms of like, you know, we have a lot of work, right to do. So for me, I'm good with whatever you all want to do, right. If you all want to meet with them and maybe we need to take a vote. And I'm okay with that. But if you don't want to meet with them, I'm okay with that too, because we have a lot of work, right. I feel like this ship has sailed. And we've already provided I'm sorry we've already provided a lot of a lot of public we responded to him publicly. You all have met with them. I mean, there's been already a lot of time taken with Mr. Rhodes it's not as if we haven't responded, plenty of time to a lot of his. The only time we didn't respond back was that second email that he sent, but then Miss, Miss Walker and Miss Miss Owen met with them, you know, so I'm good either way but and I'm fine with Miss Bowman did make me switch my mind in terms of I guess if we do decide to meet with them, she made me switch my mind to think that yes let's meet with them publicly. I'm fine with that. You know so the will of the group but if you all don't want me with them, I'm good with it too, because I have, you know, my time is precious. And we have short amount of time to get a lot of work done. And we responded quite adequately to Mr. Rhodes in writing and then you all met with him to, and I know he's reached out to me, you know and I know I'm going to be talking to him when I come back from the conversation and stuff like that so it's time and time and time and time, you know, which I think could have all been dealt with if he had just reached out to us before he sent that email, you know, which he didn't do. And that way, I'm not happy with that, you know, I'm not happy with the way things went went down the path of divisiveness that he caused, and the fact that we've had to spend all this time over and over again taken out of our of the little time that we have to do because now here we go we're spending another 15 minutes over the time, when we're supposed to be done to discuss Mr. Rhodes. So anyway, I think we should take it to vote and let's move on. I think we lost our fearless leader. Oh, no. Are we dead? Okay. But I can we don't. Last year. We lost her. No, she's not. The side, like, because it's four of us, like, whether we want to have the meeting or not. I think we should table it to next week, because it's only, do we have quorum? Yeah, we have a quorum. Oh, so we have four people. What do you guys suggest? I'm for public meeting with him. So I think, I think that she might as well. I'm not. I'm not. I'm for not meeting with him at all. Not meeting with him. We've given him enough of our attention. If we do, like if everybody else decides they want to meet with him, then the only way that I will be for it is if it's in a public setting. I got you. I got you. Mr. Jones, Verna Jones, what do you think? You know, I, you know, Alicia's been leading us all night. She introduced this topic. I'm kind of reluctant to. I mean, I plan to abstain for this decision, but I'm kind of reluctant to have it made without Alicia, having a chance to say. Let's walk. Can you hear me? Oh, she's freezing frozen. Do you want to take out your video and see if that helps? I'll look for Lisa. Maybe then let's table it. Booting me off of my internet. Why not to remove your video. Wait, can you hear us better now? Is it removed? Yeah, the video. So Ms. Walker, what we are talking about was just kind of getting a sense from the group in terms of whether to meet with Mr. Rhodes or not. And, and I think we're all on the same page that if we do meet. I'm sorry, I think I'm still not having great connection here. Right. But we can hear you though. Yeah, but Ms. Pat, I think it's delayed for her. It's what delayed. Oh yeah. Yeah, okay. I got you. So who wants to facilitate the rest of the meeting in her absence? Well, what else do we have in our agenda? Hi, sorry, can you all hear me? Yeah, we can hear you. Can you hear us? Sorry, I can hear you guys. We can't hear you. Then we don't do that. Alicia, could you call one of us on the phone and do this by speakerphone? Your voice is waking up. And you're muted right now. That be agreeable if I try to call her and see if we can ever do it by speakerphone. Yes, please. Hi, Alicia, you're on speaker now. Hi, I'm sorry, my intern that might actually just. I had to restart it. So I was booted off of my wifi for a minute, but I, and I was waiting for it to restart and I actually think it might be on now. So I'm going to try one more time to open my zoom. Because I think I think I'm connected with better connection now. Give me just one second. Go tell go tell your brother that chili's done. Okay, sorry. Sorry, I think I might be good now my modem just shut off and I had to restart it and I think it took a minute to pick back up the signal. So I apologize. I got lost. We were talking about possibly having to do a vote. I don't know if I missed something after that. That's it. Okay. Well, we started, well, we actually started kind of getting an idea, but yeah, can we just do a vote so we can kind of move on from this and decide whether we're going to meet with them or not. So the first part of the vote would be, do we want to meet with him or not? So. That would be the first piece. We could also decide whether or not we want it. You, you muted yourself again. Sorry. So, and if it's possible, I was wondering if we could also decide whether or not we want this meeting to be. A publicly recorded meeting or a private meeting. If you do have a meeting. So we pretty much have said public at this point. But I think the real question is whether or not we actually are willing to meet with him. My vote is no. Okay. Thank you, Miss Bowman. So do we, we do a roll call for a vote. Miss Meisten. Sorry. Do I need to do a, I do a roll call for a vote. Okay. Mr. Vernon Jones. I will abstain. Ms. Pat. Yes, me with him. Ms. Farera. No. And then myself and I don't mean to make this complicated, but I was going to and I'm still going to vote. Yes. So we're tied. Is Mr. Oh, no. So let's bring the vote back next week. How about that? OK, yeah, I think because I think Ms. Owen and Mr. Cage will hopefully be present and we can retry to vote next week. I think I'm OK with that, if that's OK, with the group as well. If I may suggest, after the public comment, if we can just not have too much discussion, just do the vote right away, get it out of the way, in case we don't lose, before losing people. OK, thank you, Ms. Pat. Well, as you all know, I won't be at next week's meeting, so you have my vote, though. And yeah. Thank you. It's a good thing for us. I mean, it is my vote. Seriously. What I can do is I'll process it. You know, maybe I doubt it, but my vote is a no as of right now. If I don't change it, that's what it stays. I'm not and then I won't be at the meeting next week because I'm traveling back during that time. I can't mean so if you're if you're not in the if you're not in person, we won't count your vote, right? Oh, that's that's what I don't care. I said, if you all want to meet with Mr. Rhodes, I'm fine to me with them, you know, but my vote would be no. Anyway, have a good safe trip back home. Thank you, Sarah. And so sorry, there were just two other quick things I wanted to touch on before the end of this meeting. And they were one to just let you all know. I wasn't sure if I remembered to let you all know last week that the Amherst Indie had posted our letter of appreciation so that it's up for everyone to view. And also then I just wanted to bring up that there has been communication or that Sunrise is hosting a budget rally this Saturday. And they were looking to see if the CSWG would be interested or available to speak at the rally. However, Brianna and I are both have other obligations. And so I didn't know if anybody else would be interested in doing that or if we should just decide that we are unavailable to attend the event. What's the date? So it's this Saturday and I sorry, but I don't have the time right in front of me. Oh, yeah. I haven't. Thank you, Mr. Winston. Just because they had to put a request out. So the event is from, it looks like two to four. Mr. Vernon Jones to Trevor Henson. My recollection from what I read of it is that they, the purpose of their meeting is to advocate for the cutting the police budget in order to fund the schools. And if that's correct, I wasn't sure whether we have a position on that. We're in favor of cutting the police budget, but we were recommending the money going to our recommendations. Thank you, Mr. Vernon Jones. Yes, so I am unsure if this is something that you all would like to have CSWG presence at, or they did ask though, if we wanted to speak. I mean, as you all know, I mean, I can't be at it. I mean, I don't know if, I don't know if contrary to them though, I hear you when you said Mr. Vernon Jones, obviously cutting the police budget, I think cutting the police budget is just a good idea. And then as much money we have, we spread it out, right? We spread it to us, we spread it to fund the schools because God knows we know our schools need it and everything. So I think we could be in support of it, but I just don't, I mean, I know I'm not available, obviously being out here in West Africa, and I'm not sure if other people are available or not. And if we're not available, we won't be able to be there, you know, that would be good. You're in the back dapper's position, but I'm not available to speak. Thank you, Ms. Pat. So I plan to attend, but I don't want to speak. Okay, thank you. So I will just respond if that's okay and just say that we're appreciative of their request. I don't know if you guys want me to say that we support them or just to thank you for inviting us and unfortunately we're unavailable to attend. No, no, no, no, no, no, we're attended, we're supported, we're attended, but are you going, Mr. Ross, are you going? I can't, but I support them for sure. Okay, I think we wanna say we're supportive is just that we're not available to speak, you know? I mean, Ms. Pat is attending, but we don't have anything. I hope so, yeah. Yeah, we don't have anything to say right now in terms of, you know, being available to kind of speak on it, but we're supportive. Yeah, okay, sure. Great, so I will respond to them and let them know that although that we cannot speak that there will be possibly some CSWG members in attendance and that they have our support. Yes. Okay, thank you all. So with that being said, unless anybody else has any other topics that Ms. Neyston. I'm like, it's like a probably a minute's worth. So I keep having this individual Nizia Blackshear, the Amherst Hadley reporter, the reminder reaching out and they're reaching out directly to me and I told them to reach out to you guys but they sent the email to the community safety working group. So I don't know if anybody else saw that or responded but I don't, I'm not gonna speak to them. So you guys will need to follow up with that as opposed to me, even though he's sending it, saying dear Jennifer, yeah. Thank you, Ms. Mice, Mr. Vernon Jones. I wrote to them today saying that our group had a policy that the co-chairs would be the ones that sent them the names of the two co-chairs. I'd said the similar. Thank you. My other two pitches, not to be like Ego Maniac or anything, A, I'll be on CNN tomorrow night at 10 p.m. on the Don Lehman show. And I don't really know, like it was kind of like a setup. I just, I was asked to walk them over to see the plaques and as we walked over, I went over the whole story and history of the plaques and then we got in there and he saw them and he turned and he looked and he was like, you got to do an interview and I was like, oh my God, what are you doing? And so it's probably like a 20, I have no idea what it's like. I don't know what he used out of it, but I just thought I'd throw that out there. What's your party? I would like to have a watch party tomorrow night. Where, what location? And then I will be speaking for the League of Women at the League of Women's Voters Brown Bag Lunch on Saturday at one o'clock on my little semi-vacate. I'm going a single, no children, no anybody else, little quick trip, but I'll be speaking. Nice. Those are my pitches for the evening. Oh, and I will be, if you guys don't know that I will be, we're trying to get Paul to have it be assistant director of DEI as opposed to the DEI coordinator, but that will be me. And I'm very excited to have a director because they can deal with all the politics that I and I can do the work. Congress. That's great. Nice. Thank you. And just a follow-up comment, Russ, I did see that you forwarded that email to us this morning. I just haven't been able to communicate with Brianna in regards to a response, but we have seen it. So thank you for forwarding that to us. And with all of that being said, I would like to call this meeting to adjourn. I second. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you for running the meeting. So nicely. Thank you. Good meeting, everybody. We got through the whole agenda, right? Yeah. Next meeting next Thursday, same time. Yeah. That was a wrap. That's safe. Thank you. Yes, have a safe trip back. I'll be traveling back on that day. Yeah. I'll send you, I keep sending you all some African vibes for me. All right. Yeah. Thank you, everybody. Jennifer, can I say one other thing to you? Yeah. I just wanted to appreciate that. I want a cookbook. All right, if I find one, I'll bring you one, okay? But Mr. Verne Jones, what did you want to talk to? Jennifer, I wanted to appreciate the photo exhibit she put up around the plaques on Juneteenth. I thought the photos were fabulous and real. Thank you. With a much fuller experience. And when I mentioned that to the town manager, he said you were there late, late at night putting it up. It was such a busy day for us the Friday night prior to Juneteenth. So I think Debbie Bridges and I were in there until about 1.30 in the morning. Well, I just wanted to say I loved it. I thought the photo has made a big difference. Thank you. One of looking up Main Street when nothing's paved before the town hall was built. Yeah, that was a cool one, right? And then the other one, there's the family reunion, I guess it is, in front of Hope Church. Yeah. That's basically in front of my house. Oh, yes. That's Anika's family and Debbie's family. Yeah, it was fantastic. Just to visualize that right out in the street in front of my house. Yeah, there was a lot of really neat things that happened about creating that event, right? Like just history facts and just, it was really fantastic. I thought it was a great day. Yeah, thank you. I know you made it happen, so thank you. Yeah. All right, thanks so much, have a good night. You too. Bye-bye.