 Ibu Diyanofaina from April group is regret to inform us that she will not be joining us today. And for this final webinar is particularly to provide a synthesis of the economic attributes in the context of ongoing restoration. Each of the speaker will have about five to seven minutes at maximum to convey the proposed criteria and indicator that we will have discussed and to provide commentary or responses. I highly encourage all of you, the participant to also share your views and suggestions in the chat box. And without further ado, I welcome Bapak Budi Wadena from BRG to present the economic indicators. Sorry, it takes some time to familiarize myself with the click click. Okay, so I've been asked by organizers to put some views on the economic aspect of the criteria indicators and propose some indicators on the economic aspect for the pit restorations. So to begin to understand why it is proposed, the indicators that it is proposed by BRG, we look into the general economic model as we usually do, the inputs of the economic processes. It comprises the land, materials, labor, capital, technology and so on and so forth. So this main factor provides the ingredients for a product to be produced. And then the process, manufacturing process or other activities to generate products and also to generate values. And then there's output in the form of goods and services. It might be the product and services that could be enjoyed by the consumers or general public that the value exchange happens in the right side of this slide. Which is the incomes, it could be the incomes, the revenues from the producers that they receive from the consumers that buy the products. Also, maybe values that was transformed from other values that less valuable to more valuable products. And for the pitland restorations actually the logical process that we convey is within the pitland heterological unit, it will define the social. So the environment will be the, what is WADA? It's the melting pot of the social and economic activities within the ecosystem boundaries. So as the input is actually the value of the pitland, how pitland will benefit the, will make benefit for the people that live on the pitland, but maybe outside the pitland also. The value of the pitland as the input of other activities while the, like the social and economic activities, because it gives, it provides the materials, it provides the raw materials for living. Also, the regulating properties of the pitland as the ecosystem service in regulating the water, controlling the soil, and also controlling the carbon quality. Carbon sequestration and carbon disposition on the ground. There's penyerapan and penyimpanan and also give cultural identity to the people living in there because when we deal with the environment that has a limiting aspect to economic activities then the culture will adjust. The people will adjust culturally to enable them to live in that environment. As the social aspect of the input process and output, the part of the inputs that it is important for the social aspect is the communities, people, labour, culture, knowledge, wisdom, cooperation, societal values and norms. It's all indicate how the community grows, how the social cohabitiveness and the social security. The process will improve the ability of the communities to add value to their activities is usually through educations, through socializations and training and also empowering. It's part of the empowering of the society, empowering of the social cohabitiveness that they will be empowered not to use the pitland in the wrong way, especially when they usually use the fire to clear the pitland. So empowering, training, give them the ability to manage the pitland and as an output, the people and communities safety and health as a result from the avoided health issues, the ISPA issues, the avoided disruptions to life. If there's been fire to their surrounding areas, they even could not do any economic activities at all. It is also how they use the surrounding environment for the livelihood and activities as an economic part of the aspect of the pitland restoration. The input is on the how the economy use the raw materials or crops, land, financial capital, labour and technology, using the revitalizations of people's livelihood and transformations to sustainability. The ISPA does not make the corporation, make the business to have the output of better and more sustainable products such as the CCR. Yeah, I will. So this is the key focus area in proposing the indicators of the economic aspect of pitland restorations, first on how to measure values created out of the output of pitland restorations, as well as how these outputs and values relate to the initial input. For the environment cost saving from avoided environmental disaster, we can value it that and also monetize that. We can value all the emission avoided as per the use to have the business process based on carbon cost or price and Rupiah or dollar invested per ton avoided emissions and also ecosystem services might be also valued and monetized in the unit of hectares and so on and so forth. Society and economic as high as PRG proposed will include the larger total workforce because they have healthy environment and then the workforce is growing and also the transformations of business process to business process that more wisely in terms of using the pitland, it also opening up of the opportunities for the workforce. Improvement to human capital value. It also could be monetized based on assessment of skills, educations and health if people live healthily, they might be increased in the human capital value as workforce or even as themselves as they, as they been able to do anything to do the activities that it is relevant to fulfilling their responsibility. Increase farmer household annual saving and also avoided health costs. So, all of this for indicators is proposed for looking into the economic aspect in the society, as well as for the economy for economic activities. So the revenue for sustainable products and services, the contributions to GDP has increased in the percent sustained long term growth of revenue and prevention of productivity loss, and also the return to invested the economics in the pitland solutions. So, back to you, Tia. Thank you very much, Pabuday, for bringing up the general IO economic model, which is essential for building the economics criteria and indicator also to highlight the important and urgency of valuations of environmental services goods and benefit of pitland. Now I would like to welcome Ibu Siti Hamidah from the University of Lambung Mangkurat to present assessing livelihood development impact against community welfare of the dependent community. Over to you, Ibu Siti. Thank you, Ibu Dia. Good morning, good afternoon, everyone. Is it okay if I speak Indonesian, Ibu Dia? Yes, please go ahead. Thank you, Ibu Dia. Thank you, Sivort, for giving me the opportunity to welcome you from Lambung Mangkurat University to share a little bit of experience or opinion from us. As for the budget, we are asked to share how the development of community welfare is around the corner to increase the number of people. However, because of several things, we have already reached the third webinar. Therefore, in this fourth webinar, I will share in general how the criteria and indicators of an economic aspect in our opinion. Before we focus on the topic, in our opinion, how the monitoring of land restoration is basically how the goal is sustainability of pitland. So, aspects related to this goal must be considered in four aspects. Then we also have to be able to see how the monitoring of this restoration can relate to the four aspects, with the end goal. Is the end goal like the president of BRG for the development of land restoration or SDGS and so on? We have to develop this. On the left and on the right, we have to develop this when we make a monitoring or restoration program for land restoration. So, there are four aspects. Which one do you pause? So, I can translate it for you. Okay. So, Ibu City Hamidah have presented some of the aspects in the livelihood, related to the livelihood and previous webinars. But here we, she will also bring more on assessing the livelihood, especially related to the economic aspect. Could you go back to the previous slide? So, in the previous slide, she presented a framework where how to ensure the sustainability of pitland restoration and how it can connect with broader policy goals. Please go ahead Ibu. Thank you Ibu Deh. For the economic aspect, we think the criteria for the economic aspect indicator can be, for example, in the security criteria, infrastructure, then economic cooperation, industry and depending. In this criteria, in the economic aspect, we think we take inspiration from CCS or Circle of Coastal Sustainability. Where this program is made to provide indicators, indicators of what? That need to see how sustainability in this area, economically, continues. This indicator, indicator that has been made by the SDGs indicator, then the Sustain Indicator, Social Progress Index and so on. Then from the indicator, indicator that has been made, we take what is appropriate or relevant for the protection of the pitland. For example, in the security aspect, there is the livelihood, there is gender, there is employment, then there is infrastructure, starting from energy supply, transport and access. In the category indicator, this is a criteria for us. In this criteria, we look for the indicator. For example, in the language, for example, or in the pitland, for example, how many percent of the livelihood or employment, employment, then how to access to social security, then how to deal with the benefits in the pitland and so on. Then in other aspects, or in other categories, or in other criteria, we also look for an indicator that is relevant. Whether it is criteria, we look for an indicator that is relevant. For the economic aspects, some of the indicator were security infrastructures and also among others. Those were adopted from the circles of coastal sustainability. The indicators referred include also the SDGs, the sustainable development goals, and the access indicator will be taken by considering its relevancy in applying into the pitland restoration ecosystem. Each of the criteria will be then further defined through sub-indicators and also indicators. Please go ahead, Ibu. When restoration in Laxanakan is done, the population of the area around the pitland is increased or decreased. If it is increased, what is it? Is it restoration? Or is it because of other things? Then how many percent of the increase? Or if there is a decrease, how many percent of the decrease? Then we also look for how many kinds of results that depend on the population of the pitland compared to other results or total results. Then for the areas around the pitland, how many percent of the population of the area around the pitland? The areas around the pitland are very dependent on the development or the product of the pitland. Then how many percent of the population of the pitland is dependent on the pitland? In the economic aspect, we look at the community income, the livelihood and work factors influencing the increase or decrease of the income and how it can be attributed to the pitland restoration efforts. Each of the criteria will then subject to further assessment or measurement. Please go ahead. This is just a few examples that we can add. Then there are aspects of products, aspects of research and innovation, and then the aspects of industry. For the aspects of products, we will look for a number of products that are produced from the source of the soil or the soil itself. Then how does the urgency of the products change or can be substituted with other products? Then what is the function of the products? Is it really a vital thing that is needed by the community or other public? Is it in the field of food or health and so on? Then how is the quality of the products that are produced? How is the market value? Then are the products based on research and innovation? Then how many levels of innovation that are already in it so that the products are ready to be produced or commercialized in the industry? Then the industry, the industry of various levels, small, medium and large. How many types of products are based on the source of the soil? Or how many types of products are produced from the source of the soil? Or maybe the side industry industry that is very dependent on the industry that develops the products based on the soil? How many types of products do we have to monitor and evaluate? What has been presented are some of the examples of the proposed criteria and indicator. We also focus on the product aspect, products derived or generated from pitland. How are the quality, competitiveness and its market penetrations? How are the innovations aspect also to the extent to which the product can be produced commercially? Also on the research and innovation aspect, the pit-dependent industry, how many of them and etc. Thank you. Each indicator we give a selection from 1 to 5, then we share each indicator. We choose, for example, when the population is around, when there is a gambling restoration, for example, is it the same as before? If it is the same, maybe the scale is 3, if it goes down, maybe the scale is 50%, if it goes down 100%, it becomes 1. On the contrary, if it goes up 50%, the scale is 4, if it goes up 100%, the scale is 5, and then all the criteria, sub-criterion, and the indicator, we choose one by one, then we buy a scale, then we set the index variable, and together with the other index, the ecological index, the third index, the social index, and so on, we can collect the results of restoration, whether it is successful or not, whether it is a failure or something like that. The second inspiration is how we can adopt that selection from the level of innovation from a research. So, there are tools there, we make applications, the selection is only to include the scale that has been prepared, then there will be the results automatically, there is a summary, recommendations whether this is a failure, whether this is not, or what is the improvement, and so on. Then the third inspiration, we can take from the framework from CCS study, where it uses graphics to stick with scale 1 to 5, each indicator, then we give scale 1 to 5 with a certain color. Now, in terms of, Ibu, maybe a brief summary for us, for criteria indicators in the economic aspect. Thank you Ibu, so let me interpret it. So once the CNI has been made for the measurement, for example, by referring to the various indexes, and detailing the criteria as an indicator to allow for comparisons with other programs and how to evaluate the extent of success of the restoration itself. Other inspirations is also adopted from the level of innovations of research using the app, and lastly using the framework of CCS. Once again, thank you Ibu City for providing the details on criteria and indicator covering the economic aspect of the independent community, industry, and also alternatives referred to the indexing method. Thank you for all the panelists. Now I would like to invite Pak Darsono-Hartono as our discussion to share his view and give responses to the panelists' presentations. Over to you Pak Darsono. Thank you, Budiya. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for having me here. I think it's very exciting to hear from Budiya as well as Siti here earlier regarding the criteria indicator. But I think maybe I'll try to step back and look at this on a very different, totally different angle. I mean, the fact is, you know, pitland restoration becomes something that is so important for the world in terms of mitigating and solving climate change, right? When you look back 20 years ago, these things never exist. We always believe that, you know, pitland needs to be cultivated. We have to convert it into other usage. So a lot of the mindset change had happened the past, I guess, 15 years. You know, recently, the fact is we realized that issue of deforestation, particularly from the topical country like Indonesia, and moreover, the pitland become a center of how we're going to move forward and solving the climate change issue. So I think this is probably the first time we can think of, when you look at forests, you don't look at the wood. You don't look at the land clearing. You don't look at the, you know, whatever, in this case, palm and paper or palm oil that being produced from particular forests like peat. But I think now more and more people understand that we need to value the environmental services that is being created from this ecosystem. Well, it's easy to say that it has to be restored as well as conserved, particularly, but there has to be a way that we value the environmental services for people who is doing it. Hence the economic is very important. So I think, you know, with the forming of the pitland agency, I think this thing is eventually more and more people realize that they need us, basically, they need people, community on a community level in the pitland to conserve and restore. But I guess from my experiences like Babu mentioned, you know, we've been working in pitland restoration conservation in Santa Calimantan for 13 years. It's about changing mindset. It's about changing behavior from the people. So, you know, this is where we need to bridge what we understand from the science part where we need to restore and conserve. But in the meantime, we also have to be very sensitive and understanding about the livelihood issue. Hence the criteria indicator cannot be like what we used to know because all these things might be, we started from a new paradigm. We started from a new set of idea and lenses. Hence, I think I challenge people to look at it differently. The fact is, you know, we of course need certain income to make communities become more sustainable, livelihood a taken process by changing behavior, providing the ecosystem for the communities to be economically sustainable, as well as, you know, maintaining the environmental integrity of the pitland. Hence, I think we need to have to create a social ecosystem that we look at it from a long-term perspective. Hence, not only that, you know, working with government, in this case, BRG, maybe even look working with the entrepreneur or business people in terms of how we can do this together. You know, I think it's one of the few business or even way business moving forward that everybody went. You're going to be able to solve all this haze and fire that has been happening for 20 years in this country since we start opening Pitland in Central Kalimantan. And then we will be able to provide inclusive for communities, you know, in terms of providing livelihood, productivity and all and all. And finally, by selling this environmental services, what we know now as a carbon credit or carbon offset or research-based payment, we can actually have a parties to be involved to make this happen. So I think we, you know, all these things has to happen together to prove a concept that, you know, while we are building a robust system where the criteria are being set, the indicator has been set. But I think we have to really, you know, this is not a new, this is a totally new business. So we have to think of it as a different criteria indicator. Of course, you know, you have the health indicator, you know, have the education and all. But I think it's also very important, and as Bhudi mentioned, you know, this is about environmental, social, economic and what we're talking about, governance as well as government policy. But I think one thing that is very important to look at, it's also education and awareness, because those are the key issue. If we want to solve this thing, it has to start from the bottom. It has to start from the community. It has to work together with the government and how we can look at it differently. There's no point of making a criteria indicator that we cannot be implemented, you know, and at the same time, we cannot over-reliant one criteria indicator. But I think, you know, from working with, you know, we can work with company like us and for others that have been doing this sort of restoration and conservation, we can actually put a very robust criteria indicator and build an ecosystem that long-term, we want to have a community that are sustainable, meaning that from economic perspective, from the environmental perspective and also from the government's perspective. So I think the goal is to make sure that communities surrounded this pitland forest are all of that that I mentioned. Otherwise, you know, otherwise we'll just keep on trying to solve the problem instead of trying to fix what come to us rather than solving it on the long-term. So I hope that sort of like give a clear guidance for us to discuss further. Thank you, Dia. Thank you very much, Badar Sinhaartano, for the views. Definitely we agree that there is a changing paradigm on the use of pitlands, and therefore we also should see the pitland restoration into a broader view by seeing other aspects, including the livelihood issues and also community awareness. Also, before we move forward with the responses and comments from the panelists, also from the discussants again, I would like to see, I've seen some of their interesting points in the chat box where Ahmed conveyed more elaborations on measuring economic indicator using GDP, which I believe has been replied by Budi Wadana. Thank you very much. And also we have one comment that I would like all the panelists and also discussants may want to view. This is from Ibu Atik Widayati in combinations with other indicator, especially the biophysical health of the pitlands and in order to reduce the pressure to wet pitland, how about indicators on the opposite directions? For example, indicators of local livelihood economy that switch into non-pitland-based alternatives. I welcome for the panelists to answer it first and also Badar Sinhaartano. Yeah, actually that's the problem of the traditions that continues on and on and the impact of those traditions that we see as the land and forest fire. And it is much more severe on pitlands rather than on soil, but both are truly disaster that could be avoided. So if the livelihood then changed into non-pitland-based or non-wetland-based alternative. It usually, on pitland especially, usually started with the drainage of the pitland because if not that the commodities requires dry land for the cultivations if not of that purpose, they sometimes use the canals not only for the drainage but for the transportations that will move to the areas of the productions for the productions requirements such as fertilizers and so on and so forth. And also they need the canals to move the harvesting products from the land the cultivated land to the market. So those canals that could drain the pitland will oppose the pitland to more susceptible to fire because pitland as a general biomass if it's dried then it's become fuel. If it's become fuel then it just needs a spark of fires it could become the fire that could be uncontrollable because of the biomass, the amount of biomass on pitland. So if the economic activities then alternatively been changed to the non-pitland friendly alternative the disaster will follow. It might be increasing productions for short term but it is eventually become the problems not only for the persons that do the economic activities non-pitland friendly economic activities but also for others. Thank you Pavuti. So the community has been very dependent on the ecosystem and so that it's inseparable and I would like to invite Ibu Siti Hamida to read your comments on that. So if we have a question we will include criteria for increasing production then there will be some aspects that we will choose whether it will increase, if it will increase there will be a selection of 1 to 5. The next one to choose is not only one question but the second question is whether the increase in production is related to the production or is it related to the construction or is it related to other functions then it will be given another selection. So the selection will be cumulative not only in one question. So what is the conclusion whether this economic activity in terms of supporting the continuation of the Gambut restoration or increasing the economy of the people there will be many aspects that will be chosen. So one question, one question, one question will be selected one by one so that later we will decide how to ask if the increase in production or the economy is just sold or changed to other functions it will be the next question and it will be the next question and the last question is a combination of various possibilities so our job is to find when we have set the criteria there are four criteria one of them is the economy then in the sub-criterion in the economy we set it first for example as an area from us starting from security industry and so on the sub-criterion then we will look for the indicator that supports our job together to find the indicator then the selection how the selection is like what I said earlier we have to adopt from three sustainability selection in the region of the west or the selection of how to improve innovation and so on using scores 1 to 5 or using different colors so that later there will be a diagram or like a wave in ecology, economy or like what or later if for example adopting with the cut-synopsis or the cut-synopsis later we will meet recommendations or improvements and so on then the second question there is a question about how the results can be measured from the output when we interrogate how many people around Awam people it is easier for us to get closer to the output because if they ask how many people can't explain but if every month we need some oil and so on it's like how we can get results that can be measured from the cut-synopsis thank you Ibu to clarify Ibu Adi she meant that the degree of local life that switch to completely non-pidland from these activities so that the wet-pidland in the area can be restored and just to interpret what you have been saying is that the relevant aspect will be described in greater details included in the criteria indicator. The support criteria will be supported with indicators and measurement method and unit that it can produce analysis that inferred the strength and witnesses for recommendation. And there were also approach to make sure different aspects for examples like the income. But there's another one which meant to share your views since I believe RMU has a lot of experience with anthropogenic pressures around the ecosystem restoration concession. Please go ahead. Thank you, Budea. But I think I want to answer Boatik's question. I think that's very valid. But I think from our experience working managing Kattingan Mentai Project in Central Kalimantan, we are not saying that Pitland is a no zone for farming. We didn't say that. So we are not going to change livelihood that people become farmers, become non-farmers for that reason. I think if that is the case, then it's not easy to change and to have that restoration and conservation happen. But I think the key is each site and are unique, right? I mean, some of the pit this pitland have been degraded. So there is a way to restore them. You can actually just like Budea said that instead of having more canal opening, you can actually try to do something to repair the ecological part of it. And the key will be to what we do is to implement a agroforestry model. We are not a big supporter of a monoculture palm oil or popping paper or things like that. Because the fact is we know there is environmental services for given to this type of forest if we can restore it well. So now we are testing a lot of different types of basically types of things like cashew or vanilla. All these things that we are doing that nobody have ever thought that might work in pitland. We are trying like saga is another good example. So I think we have to look at it from how can we understand or use the local as well as the nature of pitland to produce something that have value. I think we're always so used to it's better to cut it down and make it into palm oil. Well, actually there is a, you know, basically Gamor which is a native species of pitland that can produce, you know, other things as well. So these are the things that has to be cultivated and work while we are restoring the area. I think that's why it's important for us. We also have other alternative income for subsidizing the, not subsidizing but helping the communities. Hence this environmental services vis-a-vis carbon clarity who's going to bridge that because like it or not, somebody have to finance this, right? You cannot just literally ask the farmer to try something that they never tried before. Well, you know, that's not have any result. You're asking them to reforest instead of, you know convert it into other usage. So these things has to happen at the same time. Well, I think, you know, building that capacity you can work with a local NGO, you can work with private sector, you can work with a lot of entrepreneur. Well, I think it is a very important time of for us to move forward, especially if you look at all this young entrepreneur of Indonesia. All they cares are inclusive activities. So I think this is a time for us to bridge that. And I think, you know, we should encourage more people but of course we need to build this in the transparent space where there's a great criteria indicator as well. You kind of just make it in the vacuum. Everybody should keep on doing whatever it is and then nobody measure that. So I think, you know, from economic, everything is intertwined, right? Well, we're talking about economic but sexually there's environmental integrity part that needs to be fixed. There is a governance that has to be fixed and move forward, you know, as well as, you know social and finally the economic is going to come. So I think, you know, there is a solution. It's just that we also have to be open-minded to try and sometimes you can even learn from communities because they have the local knowledge that sometimes we oversee or we try to end the underestimate. Well, they are the one who can actually solve this issue from very bottom up. Thank you very much, Padarsana. So the critical point is indeed to reconcile the restorations if forced and also with livelihood and to produce something sustainably with value added so that the people can be incentivized by the existence of the pitland itself. So by way, in the previous webinars we also noticed that there are potential criteria, for example, economic incentives for pitland restoration such as the access to finance, access to markets and also job creation that is highly related with the livelihood aspect. How would you, how would you the panelists and discuss and see this indicator my fit with our needs to build criteria in individuals related to the economic aspect? Papu, did you wanna go ahead first? Yeah, when we say about the economic aspect it's not necessarily all translated into the Rupiah receive or the dollar received and we will be trapped on following everything into monetary terms. So as Padarsana mentions that when we do the restorations in terms of changing the practices. So people that do farming, they usually knows about farming but not, so the restoration is not to change the livelihood of the people from doing farming to non-farming. It's very difficult to do so. But helping them to find the commodities that suitable for the wet conditions of pitland is the main point for it. For example, say in Kalimantan Selatan, we train the people that do the weaving of the Purun. So the vegetation as the background of this webinar. So the Purun, they learned the different processes of the Purun and they learned how to weave the Purun differently so that it is more appeal to the market. So we ask also the private sector that dealing with the craft marketing and the craft which called edit value, edit art on the craft so that the value that they could get from usually a bundle of the weaving materials only valued at 100,000 rupiah. Now with the different pattern and different marketing strategy, they could double or even triple the income that they can get from the same amount of material and time that they spend in doing the handcraft. So that's kind of, maybe we can use some of the activity, some of the indicators that indicating the required time, the required skill, and then the output in terms of financial gain from those transformations of activities but sometimes this could not, we could not necessarily use that approach. For that, then the climate mitigations approach introduced the RPP, result based payment for the things that not necessarily you can look the products and sell the product because the carbon credit is something that you could not see but the certificate it is good. So there's no good at more on that because she's dealing mostly with something that we could not see but valuable. Thank you, Pabudy. Ibu Siti, do you want to provide the comments also? Thank you, Gudia. There are three questions that I might be able to answer because there was a question that the meaning of the question from Matapencaharian is how, if the Matapencaharian goes against the language, what is the relationship with the language or rewitting. Now this can be explained that when this language is still considered as a wasteland, wasteland is considered as a wasteland. So from that, the people will be attracted to themselves to go to others who are more fortunate financially. Well, because of that, our job is how from the vegetation that is in the original vegetation that is in this forest area, we still maintain it, but it can result in the spread of the population. One of them is that we optimize the use of vegetation, especially the wetland to stay there, but it can save the economy. For example, in the third webinar last month, I took an example. One of them is the man. At this time, we found the man almost everywhere in the forest. Well, unfortunately, this land has not been used at all, different from Sagu or anything else, that is already, if the man, or the man is already there, the man is still considered as a wasteland, even by the people around him, because it is considered to be dangerous when the muslims are angry because the leaves that contain oil are very easy to burn. Well, because of that, they want more towards them, so that the man's life can be replaced with something else. Well, this is very dangerous because, according to me, any vegetation, especially wetland, is a vegetation that has been tested, suitable, good for survival, and so on. And there is, especially for the ecosystem, we have to take care of it, we have to protect it. Well, one of them is we want to make the man a commercial product, and last week, we had, for example, one day, a man's land can be a unique product that can be used for good health, or functional for wetlands. Well, when it becomes a commercial lake, just the presence of the land will still be preserved, compared to if the land we don't use it as a source of environmental protection. When it becomes a source of income or a source of income, automatically, the people will protect it. When it is protected, then the function of the land is to how to support the development of the language. Of course, it is very, very much bigger than if we replace it with other land. That's the first question. Then the second. I'm sorry. It seems that we don't have that much time. Maybe we can move to Pak Darsono. But before that, I would like to interpret it that Ibu City is trying to explain the improving the value added of Kalake, a point of on Pitland when it is being improved and then the community will protect the existence of Kalake in Pitland. We apologize. Sorry, Ibu City. It seems that we have to move forward with Pak Darsono. Please. Thank you. Maybe one thing I want to add, I think we all agree that, you know, we need to have a side for us to restore and conserve Pitland rather than doing what we used to know and what we used to do, right? But I think if you look at communities, whether it's farmers and every day, there are three things that they always like though. One is they lack access to market. They have usually lack of access to finance and then they even have a lack of capacity. So I think the key will be if we want to have this successful endeavor, we also need to be able to say that, you know, we need somebody's help, right? Whether it's a NGO, whether it's private sector that can help the communities so that they can provide that access to market. In this case, you're using carbon credit like Bob Boody said, we might be able to channel that, you know, in terms of market, sorry, access to finance particularly and then access to market is something that we have to help. Like, you know, we also help communities to market their product. You know, in this case, the Purun that we also created a market for that. We're not just about training how to do it, but also help them to create that market. And finally, we also want them to be more efficient in terms of their productivity when they produce this. So then you can actually have that happen because we can, we kind of keep on telling them, or you, you have to restore, you have to restore, or you have, we will help you. But if you don't provide all this, the market access, the financial access as well as the capacity, you know, they're not going to be able to fulfill their livelihood. So I think that's very important. And then I think we have to, whether it's a private sector's involvement, whether it's an NGO, it's something that we have to know at this time, the communities are lacking of this capacity that need help, whether even the government or BRG, but it's a process that will take time because behavior change doesn't take overnight. It might take years. So I just, we have to, once you have a clear blueprint, you know, product coming out, what are the, you know, how we can brand it, how can we market and hopefully you can, you know, slowly have that change of behavior and having more and more higher productivity and income. Of course, income, like one mentioned income is an indicator, but I think it's need a process to get there, to educate the people how they can use this, use the pit lane where it used to be a curse into something that is meaningful, you know, more and more people in the world realize that we need nature for our survival. So restoring and conserving pit lane is one of the way for us to survive and this has to be message that has to be conveyed to all around people around the world and people know that already. We just have to make sure that we have a very good plan in terms of being transparent how if they decided to buy our credit or carbon credit, then there is a transparent way in terms of how the money is going to benefit the community, particularly so that we can have a sustainable long-term solution for pit lane restoration and conservation. Thank you very much, but now we only have two minutes left. I invite the panelists and discussion to have one concluding message for our discussion today. Please, Babudy. Yes, I could not agree more with that before we move into the uses of the economic indicators for pit lane restorations, the first step is to change the paradigm of the people starting from the policymakers, the market players and also down to the community level on the conservations and protections and the restoration is not a cost based. It is now, but eventually it will give the opportunity to look to have the better environment and also a chance to be rewarded if the reward is required in this sense from the carbon that it can see. But the changes of the livelihood is also important because it attracts more innovations and more entrepreneurship in the field that will grow based on what it is innovative and the development of a product that it is suitable for the wet conditions of pit lane. Thank you Babudy. My apology it seems that there are a few seconds left so I guess that was the key concluding message for our economic breakout session. Thank you for all the panelists and discussion. Now let's go back to the plenary room. Thank you very much.