 Fy fawr, wrth i fawr, byw i'r Faunt Ym Mhwylfaith Refwarran Fwrdd y Cymru ar 2014. Fyrdd chi i'n fawr i'ch mwy o bod, mae'r ffawr o bobl yn ddiwrnodau newyddol i'r ddiwrnodau Llyfriddol o'u bwysig sy'n gweithio ar highrath y rai wglu. Rwy'n ddim yn bwych i'n ddych chi'n gweithwyr newyddol, Anne Bial-Goldy, oedd yn argynnu'n ddoedd meddwl mewn majesticol ac mae'r ddiddordeb. Rydyn i'r ddau cyfnod rôl o'r unrhyw i ddau cyd pa yrhaedd aran gynhyrch. Rydyn i'r ddau cyfnod rôl o'r unrhyw i ddau cydarrachau cyfnod, rydyn i oswn o'r ei ddau cyfnod yn gwaith. Rydyn i oswn o'r unrhyw i ddau cydarrachau cylifer o'r unrhyw o ffeas Divine Heal. Rydyn i oswn o'r pannel a ffantwm Llywodraeth Cllwgolion Ffilled ffóravwysigol maen nhw diolch i ddau gyflym. Diolch i chi'n Mynd yn habermu i patience eich cyhoeddion cynhau. Felly, gyddoch i chi wrth iddo am y heir ynker hawddion chióog ymgyrch wasstyndau neu bob glo coutai yn mynd yn diek adnog, yn archeol, ac fy repay wind, gen i chi'n gallu gynaeth eich cymuned ath altogether rwy'ug bike!. Rwy'n f lacks抓pe ei lle wirr Seni Grunbeiraen yn y fwyaf yw eich hen ar ôl enlygu ni, rydych, efallai, nhw'n iawn ac ymbobol eich hwn ar sgwrth yn hwn i teithi. Rwy'n credu bod mae'r prif ei fodthat, yo d còngr honno a bydd 자�nau i ddod. glowing yn edry堂, nid oeddiw gy weld mae'r ffordd Mawr, ac mae'n dechau'n fydag i chi. OK. Good you morning. My name is John Lunzey, a I stand measurement bomb? I started receiving job seekers rounds in September 2011. I was then sent to a job called the Shortrust from October 2011 to April 2012. I was put on a job placement with a paint shade in Glasgow for four months but was unable to find a job. I was then sent to empoi about 2012 pressed by the first two introductory sessions as there was that many questions about what I could do and what type of jobs would have a negative impact on my health. I felt like it was only a matter of time before I get work, however this was not to be the case. אל experienced by the employee had a terrible effect on my mental health. I was with them for over a year and I had four different advisers who were only interested in trying bydd rydyn ni ynterni nhw'n gweithio'r rydyn ni i'n gwael i fynd i gael, rydyn ni i i gael y volu. Rydyn ni i gael y cyffredinidg erbyn fy carf, dydyn ni i gael, rydyn ni i gael fy gair i fynd i'n gweithio'n gweithio, ac yn rhoi i'n gwneudi'r iawn o waith i fynd i fynd i wych. Y grifos sy'n ddifen oeddoddiol wedi gwzog ddyn ni nid i gael iawn i fynd i'n gweithio'r gweithio i fynd i gael was gone travelling around Scotland, mainly to Aberdeen. I knew I could not do this job as I was suffering from high anxiety and depression, but they forced me to apply for it anyway. Within a week, I got a phone call from the security company and then I went for an interview, then I get the job. That happened around August, September 2013. I went up to Aberdeen to start the job and realised that all the things I was told gyda'r gweithio'r wych. Mae'r gweithio'r gwahanol eraill i dda'r drafodaeth, ac mae'r ddrwyf yn 30 nes ar gŵr hyn. Dyw maethogwrdd rashwm yn yr holl yn eich lle. Mae'r ysgolwyd i llwydiadau, i bobl yn ddweudol, aillafol o'r effigol. Mae'r bwysig i wneud起flydd yw'r gweith. Ei famu gwahanol bwrn. Mae gwirionedd i ffasianwyr, ond mae'r gweithio'r gweithio'r ffeithio'r gweithio. I cried for no reason at all and I think I'd have a sort of breakdown. During these two years between September 2011 and September 2013 was when my anxiety really started to increase. Every time I met the job centre I was talked down to like a scrnger. I wasn't interested in finding work. They also tried to get me a plie for jobs that were not suitable even though they knew I had a mental health condition and was on anti-depressants. I had to go to the job centre every second Thursday at 11am, but for a few days before I went to the job centre I'd be a complete mess. I would start getting really anxious and depressed. The thought of suicide would be regular. 2014 was my last year at a job seeker zones. Every time I went to the job centre I kept seeing staff talking to customers in a totally disrespectful way. I also kept hearing about people getting sanctioned for silly reasons. I was aware of the powers the DWP had to sanction people. Every time I went to the job centre I thought I was going to get sanctioned. That made my anxiety and depression hit the roof. In September 2014 I had enough. My doctor gave me a psych note for three months and I applied for a ESA. In two weeks I got a notification that I'd be receiving £140 a week every two weeks and I received the adredded atos form saying that I was to fill this in and have it handed in within four weeks. I tried to leave it for the first two weeks to try and forget about the form and get my head together. Then I got a letter from atos saying that they haven't received my forms yet and that if they don't get them in the next two weeks they will stop my money. In the third week I went to the city's advice to get my forms filled in. When they got round to seeing me they said that I would have to arrange an appointment with somebody who specialises in filling these forms. They then gave me an appointment for the day the forms were supposed to be handed in so I froze them quietly and got my mum to fill in the forms for me. On the forms they would ask questions about your past and about suicide. Answering the questions made me feel terrible and suicidal even though my mum was filling in the forms and asking me the questions. In September the same time as I started the essay I was given a act of depression called my tisapine. This was terrible. I would sleep 18 hours a day and fall asleep in public. I was unable to function properly and had no concentration whatsoever. I couldn't honestly remember how I spent most of my day. I was like a zombie. My doctor also referred me to a psychiatrist and a cpn. The psychiatrist kept up in the dosage of my tisapine and I got worse. The day I was put on the maximum dosage I started to hear whispering noises in my head laughing and telling me to kill myself. These noises happened for three days until I dropped the dosage. Thankfully I don't take this medication anymore. I stopped taking them within a few weeks after the noises. The cpn was absolutely terrible. He would come into my house and ask me how I was getting on within five seconds explaining how I was getting on. He would then talk over me and keep talking at me for about 30 to 45 minutes. I was unable to tell him the reasons why I felt the way I did. He wasn't interested. He was too busy talking at me and giving me daff bits of paper and talking rubbish of what's happening in his life. I really don't understand how this man's a cpn. Luckily at the same time when I was seeing a cpn I was getting peer support from Richard at Samh. The employee advised me to apply for peer support so I did. It was good talking and getting to know Richard because he listened to me and gave me advice and had a good idea what I was going through. It was Richard who suggested that I should think about going to college and applying for social sciences. This was the furthest thing from my head as I was unsure of how to do it. Richard kept me right and advised me. Thanks to Richard, he helped me in the right direction and I'll always be grateful for this. I got a phone call on my mobile in April and a lady on the phone says that she is phoning to ask me to come in for my assessment in two weeks and it would be on a Saturday. Obviously I couldn't refuse. The appointment wasn't within the three months, I said. It was around seven or eight months. I went to the appointment with my mum and when we got to the assessment centre we stood outside for a few minutes as we got there early. My phone rang and I answered. It was the woman who was assessing me asking if I was coming in today, 15 minutes before the appointment. I told her we were outside. Me and my mum were in and sat around for 10 minutes waiting for the appointment time. We then got called into a room, the woman seemed friendly at first, the woman then started asking questions. I was so anxious that the answers never came out right. The kind of questions that were asked were all about my mental health. The questions also felt like they were trying to get me asking things to confuse me to give me the wrong answers. Sometimes when she asked me certain questions and wasn't satisfied with the answers, she'd get a bit right. She also asked me many discussion questions on my suicidal thoughts which I feel was a bit inappropriate would make me feel more distressed. I think that the appointment lasted around 20 minutes. Around four weeks later I got a letter from the DWP saying that I was put into the support group and I would be getting my money back dated. It got back dated around the same time as I got this letter. Although this was a bit of relief, the anxiety and depression still remained. I knew that at some point in the future I would have to go through the same procedure if I was still ill, so I applied for several college courses and managed to get on to one. Thankful in the moment, I'm going to college and doing well. I don't have to worry and rely on benefits at the moment as I've signed off ESA at the end of August 2014 and I'm currently getting a bursary. However, the anxiety and depression is still there and I'm on two different medications to lessen the effects of these conditions. I was first diagnosed with depression when I was 15 and was given Prozac. Ever since, I've been on many medications and seen many psychiatrists, psychologists and CPNs. For some reason, when the medications work, it only lasts for around 60-12 months. There are many that don't work or the side effects are horrible. My depression can sometimes go away for periods of time but it always comes back and when it does, it hits me hard and force me. I've always had a certain degree of anxiety but since 2011, it's got worse due to the horrific experiences of job-seekers on ESA. Now my anxiety is much worse than my depression and I'll never forgive the Tories at the DWP for this. The way I was treated by the DWP is as though I had made up the fact that depression and anxiety, even though I have 21-year medical reports to prove that I did. It's also like they are trying to say that at the age of 15, I made up the fact that I had depression to go and claim benefits at a later stage. Why should people who have medical conditions be put through these experiences? That made my condition much worse and I'm sure that others are going through the same type of experiences. The stress of applying for ESA and then getting on the words later with the ATOS forms is a terrible way to treat somebody when they have more in their plate already. It's like saying, we'll give you the money just now but here's a reminder that we're going to try and stop you from getting this benefit because we don't believe you're ill. It's even worse when they say that you will be assessing within three months and then assessing seven. This is seven-month of torture worrying about what is going to happen and constantly think in my case, in my case, of obsessing about it. It should only make sense that, though my and other medical history notes that these conditions aren't fate to just to claim benefits, specialist of these conditions are diagnosing me and others with these conditions, why are they not taking seriously? The information that these specialists should be made a priority as they know how an individual functions with their condition. The questions in the ATOS sheets are not suitable and don't give people the chance to get any more detail of the conditions and how it affects them. The questions are too rigid, which makes it harder for assessor to assess properly and get the whole picture. Common sense should also be used for examining people with learned-term medical conditions who are not going to get better and should not have to go through this experience every so often as they will never recover. Thanks. James, do you want to give us your statement then, please? Over the past three years, I have applied and been given ESA and GISA, which I supplied evidence for when asked. I was in GISA but was having a lot of problems with my downstairs neighbour. That's how I ended up at Samet Evergreen. I wasn't coping and I had to go from GISA and apply for ESA. GISA did not sign me off properly and I did not get any money for four weeks after numerous and various phone calls where I got the run-around. Eventually, I got my money. I was on ESA for about three or four months and then I got sent to a time run-off which decided that I was fit for work. I definitely did not agree with this but I still had to reapply for GISA because GISA did not sign me off and I had to go through another four weeks of phone calls etc before I got my money. I am now on GISA and have been sent with sanctions from day one which did not help my mental health. I had to go on a computer course for nine months to keep the job centre off my back whilst I was out. This went on for months but I am not getting so much bother at the job centre now. The people at the job centre and the people that did my assessment treated me like a number. They were not nice at all. The job centre and benefit systems do not have a clue how to deal with people with mental health problems. As for what I went through, it does not help anybody. I went into a deeper depression because of the way I was treated and I do not want to go through that again. Doctors are not sticking by their patients because others put too much pressure on them to sign them off the sick. I came to Samet, Evergreen because of the trouble with my neighbours, loud music, anti-social behaviour etc. All this caused me to go into a depression. I got no help from the council and had to move. I was attending the cottage and that is how I heard about Evergreen. I started off as a trainee for two and a half years and now I am being kept as a volunteer. I suffered with depression from an early age that did not know what was wrong with me until I was about 19. I have been in and out of hospital since then. Now I only get medication when I think I need it. Sorry, I was a bit nervous. That is fine. James did absolutely fine. What we will do now is open up to the committee to ask questions and explore some of the points that you made in a bit more depth. This committee has been looking at these types of issues for a period of time. We have taken evidence from a number of people, including people at the Department of Work and Pensions. One of the senior medical officials from the DWP spoke to us. He said that he conceded that the process itself can lead to pressure being brought to bear on people and cause them to fail the assessment. I do not know if he can fail the assessment, but it is certainly not to come through it in a particularly good way. Is that your experience when you were going through this process? Did you feel that at the end of it you were in a worse position than you were at the start in terms of your mental health? I have had that since I was 19. I have never been able to fill them in because it is hard to explain how you are feeling. I have good days where I could not fill in some of the questions. I thought that it would be lime. The other days, where I should have been filling the questions, that is how it is. Since I was 19, I do not even know why you are filling the form because a lot of people are just getting... Your experience, did you feel that they listened to you, that the assessor took on board the points that you were making? Not one. John, what is your experience? I felt that there were just ticking boxes at the end. There was no concern, there was no going to psychiatrists or psychologists, and they tried to talk to you about your condition, the any concern I thought. It was just ticking boxes. It was just done in a very cold and calculated way. It almost felt like they were asking questions to see if you trip up. I do not know whether you were able to get an answer. I do not know if you asked a question or whether you had any feeling that the person who was asking you the questions had any background in mental health. The criticism that we have heard is that someone is assessing for someone in terms of their mental health, but they could be a nurse, a physiotherapist even. The last assessment that I got signed off, it was a nurse, but it was on mines. No mental health, it was just a nurse. I am really unsure, but I never asked because at the time I was just so... I was so don't talk medication and I didn't get any asking. It almost felt right. I am in the room and I start questions. I never get the time almost to ask. It was a delegation of committee members who went to an ato assessment centre to see how they conducted an interview. It was a scenario that was set up. It was an actress that played the person who was being assessed because we were not allowed to see someone being assessed. It was the way that they trained their assessors. The person who was acting, although I have to say that she was very good, was acting as someone with a mental health issue. The doctor who was asking the questions was aware of that and he had some specialism in mental health. The interview took well in excess of half an hour, Kevin, if I remember correctly. It was quite a lengthy process. John, your experience was that it was over in about 20 minutes. Yes, it felt it was over in 20 minutes. I think roughly that it wasn't an hour. I wouldn't even... Between 15 minutes to 30 minutes, I would say it was an hour. I would say that at the time I was on medication, but it definitely wasn't an hour. But you don't feel as though that you get any understanding of your condition from the period of time that you were there? No, she was just asking basic questions. She was reading questions at a sheet and ticking boxes, so that's all she was doing. It wasn't like she was doing it at a fritapy, or he did that sort of thing. So it was just... Andy could do that. I mean, a monkey... Well, no, a monkey, but... He just sat and said, right, how does this affect you, or that affect... Andy could do that, and then tick a box. That's great. Kevin, I'll come at you now. John, if I could start off and continue on about the assessment, which seems to be quite short, you said that your mum was there with you in the waiting room. Did she go into the interview with you, too? What did she think of the process? Or did she keep quiet as Nate upset yourself? When I was getting a wee bit lined up, she would say something, but then she would say, it's his interview type thing. So she would basically totish it up. She didn't need to totish it, you know what I mean? It's his interview, and that's what it was like. She thought it could have been a lot worse. She thought it was going to be a lot worse than that, but I thought it was going to be a lot worse, to be honest with you. At that interview, when the person was speaking to you, were they looking at you, were they speaking directly to you, or were they fiddling with the computer at the same time as they were speaking to you? It was a bit of both, really. She'd asked a question, and normally when she's asked a question, she's looked at the computer, and then she'll turn around and look at you for the reply. Do you think that's a bit off-putting when somebody is speaking to you and turning away? Yeah, it definitely is, because you just don't know what's on the computer as well. I don't know. No, it was off-putting. Well, I'll be honest with you, John. We were at one of those assessments. I was more interested in what was going on at the computer than I was about other things at a certain point, and we actually got to see the computer afterwards, and we probably better not go there today. So, you know, you've got a situation. Your mum is there, and she's basically not welcome by the sounds of it. Yeah, she wasn't welcome. And somebody who's not speaking to you directly, but fiddling at the same time. So, that's such a... Well, does it feel like they're interested for a start? Yeah. As I said, it's just done in a professional, cold way. It's not proper interaction. And do you think that, obviously, you've had a long history of mental health problems? Do you think that it's possible for somebody to gather in all of that information in that 20-minute period? Definitely not. Definitely not. Because they never run into too much detail on that. They just ask to how you... It's basically how you feel right now, and that's it. It's not like that today. They don't get too much into your background or what happened in the past. It's how you feel right at this moment. In your own doctor, did they ask your own doctor about the experiences that you've gone through and what they thought about your condition and whether or not you were fit for work? Sorry, did the assessor ask my doctor? Yes. Not I'm aware of? Not I'm aware of. Okay, that's very useful. James, I wonder if I could ask you, similar in terms of the assessments in the tribunals that you've gone through, did you feel that they were paying due care and attention to your condition? Well, my wife was with me and she wasn't allowed in. She wasn't allowed in? I was 10 minutes and I was at the door. I don't know how she could assess me in 10 minutes. Did they give you a reason why your wife couldn't go in? No, because we barked when I was... I was actually on it when I was under a doctor that I was under for years. I had 23 points and I was on the cusp of things. I wasn't allowed in then and the doctor was a bit more but when he gave me a third of the examination, this was about eight years ago, a third of the medical examination, physical examination and spoke about this, that and another. Well, since then I went from 23 points to my last assessment to nine points and the DWP even wrote the nine points off. Okay, but no reason was given for why your wife couldn't go in, why you weren't allowed to support that. Okay, I think that's probably one of the first times that we've heard something like that and I think we probably need to follow up on that. If I could turn back to you again, John, obviously you had an experience in Aberdeen and I'm from Aberdeen and I'm sorry you had that experience there, I have to say. By the sounds of it, you've got a support network at home in Motherwell with your mum and others. Do you think that it's wise for the DWP and others to force folk into work away from home where they lose their support network? No, definitely not. That's what it was most. I was a big worry to me as well but I felt I had no choice, I felt I had to do it at the time. I felt I was forced into doing it. So, being forced into doing that, did that create a real major setback in terms of your health after going up there for that short period? That finished me off at the time. After that, I was just down there. I was just really, really down, depressed, anxious. That was the final straw, that's when I went and got a signal from the doctor. That really pushed me over the edge at that point. It was a fact that I had to go up there away from my family and then get in there and then all the stuff that they told me, this is what's going to happen, they told me I had the job, they said it'll be like this, it'll be like that, the accommodation is great, it was an absolute disgrace. When you go there and you see all that, and you hear all the stories from other people, it was just really, I couldn't have stayed in the house any longer, I had to get away the next death, I had to just go home. It really pushed me over the edge. After that, I was just so anxious, I just kept thinking about getting sanctioned and things like that. I'd like to eventually get a job, but I want to get a job that's not going to make me ill. I really do want to work, that's why I'm at college, which I'm quite enjoying at the moment, but I want to find something that doesn't make me ill. It's just something that helps me, because there is work out there that can help people, you want to have a purpose in life, you don't want to just sit about the house all the time. If you want to go out and do something, to me anyway, I don't want to have to rely on benefits. I want to go out and do my thing, I want to go out and work and have a purpose in my life. You've got to find something that's right for you, an employer that understands some of the difficulties that you may face from time to time. Yes, there are certain types of work that I've done in the past that's made me ill, there are certain types of work that it's benefited me like. I've got a rough idea of what's on what doesn't. Obviously, Bollywood has quite a lot of help from Sam H as well. How would you have coped James, do you think, if Sam H hadn't been there to help you in your family along the way? Well, what I was going through with the council and my neighbours and the police and what not, if I hadn't been at the cottage, me and my wife would have probably been on the streets because we couldn't have taken them anywhere from the neighbours. It's through the cottage that I learned about Sam H. If it wasn't for Sam H, I wouldn't be able to sit here and talk now because two and a half years ago, I was a mess, I'd actually attempted suicide because I was getting nowhere, I just was going round in circles. I mean, I was having my wife who'd gone to all that. I was fighting the neighbours, I was fighting the council, but I'd say it wasn't for day two, I would have probably done myself on. I'd attempted an overdose, but I must have known meant to hurt him, luckily. I wouldn't think like that. I still feel suicidal quite often, but I'm glad I didn't go because I've got a lot of loving to do yet, hopefully. Hopefully that'll be the case, James. John, do you think how Sam H helped you as well? It did help me because they knew what I was going through. I wasn't just going and seeing a psychologist that had learned stuff at a university and things like that. They've got experience in mental health, they appear to support something, especially, and I felt it helped me. It helped me find what I wanted to do. They helped me find a college course and told me how to go about getting a college course and things like that, so yeah, it was very helpful. They gave me something that I... When I felt I had nothing in my life, I felt I had nothing in my life, Dave, can I point in the direction a wee bit? You could do this, so yeah, it was very helpful. Thank you very much, gentlemen. Thank you, convener. I say thank you very much for your evidence this morning. I'm very new to the committee, I only joined last week, but your evidence today is going to help inform us so much, and I really appreciate you both coming along today. I was interested in a couple of things that you both said. John, you had said that they're only interested in how you feel right now, in terms of the interview, and James, when you were talking about filling in the forums, you were mentioning that, on some days, you were able to engage in that process of doing it, but only on a better day for you. Given that you both said those two things, does any of your experience in the whole process feel that you've been given an opportunity to explain the very nature of your condition and how it affects you in the whole, or has it always been just this, you know, you're in a room for 15 minutes or half an hour or whatever, and they make a decision on how you behave in that time, and none of that previous information is taken into account? Yeah, that's exactly what happened, yeah. That's exactly what happened. They were just interested in how you felt there when they weren't interested. I mean, they may be interested in what happened the past few months or so, but they don't really go beyond, they don't really go into too much information, well, they don't ask for too much information about when it all started, when it started suffering from depression and things like that, and how it varies and how it can go up and it can go down, and they don't really go into that, but it's really here, there now, tight boxes. My mum had a profile for mental health for my doctor, I got a slightly up, and I've got one question about anything that was done at the assessor, but my kind of depression, I mean, at this time of year I suffer from OCD because of cold things like that as well, I've got that kind of problem, I mean, I could go years without a film, I know I could be okay, but what happened with the neighbours and that, I just felt I was fighting the world, my doctor put me on, I was actually assaulted by one of them, he got charged, he got up lightly, the charge went to something, that went on for 12 months, I was fighting that as well, but to try and express that to your doctor, DWP, things like that, you didn't get a chance to tell them anything like that, I mean, I went at the DWP, my black eye, and the person that signed me on asked for help to me, a quick question, I said I got assaulted, I wouldn't like to see him then, I said I never had him once. In terms of the process I think, John, in your evidence you say quite clearly that the whole process and the delays in the process had made during anxiety levels far, far worse, you know, in terms of what would, is there anything that would have made that easier for you, is there anything in the system that you think would have prevented that happening for you? Well I think if they maybe used a wee bit of calling sounds, I would go to my doctors and psychiatry, CPMs and that, they would have seen it at the timing, ask them, they're specialists, they know me, they've got the records there, they didn't have to send me a letter for saying I get an ESA and there's the haters, they just didn't have to do that, I mean it's like, originally when I was on ESA it was really, I thought I was only going to be on it for about six weeks to three months, I thought I was just gonna get my head together and then start looking again, but then you get that and then it just adds on to it and then before you know it you're wondering about that and then you're wondering about all the earth stuff and it just doesn't help, it doesn't help at all, it makes it much worse, much much worse, your condition gets worse when you see it, when you get that and then you've got the stress of filling out the forms and all the questions that are in the forms and it's no matter how necessary they're difficult, they are difficult questions to ask in the sense that they're difficult to look and read and then you've got to think about or like say suicidal thoughts and things like that, but they're no difficult to answer writing downwards, but I mean there's just, you have to think a lot and then when you're thinking about all these different questions and the aspects that you start to go, before you know it when you're finished out you feel absolutely terrible, you feel really really really stressed. Thank you both for coming along and telling us about your experience. Just ask you John first. It sounds like you wanted to, you tried to stay on JSA as long as possible, is that fair to say? Yeah I did. Is that because you felt JSA was less stressful, more supportive than the ESA? Were you worried about ESA? I felt that I wanted to get work, I wanted to find a job, I felt I was on benefits years ago, well it was different types of, I think it was like severe disablements, that was quite a while ago in income sport and I felt a bit trapped when I was on it because it just became dependent on it, I felt like JSA, I was looking for work and I didn't think I was going to be on JSA for long, I thought when I moved down from the Highlands and I came here, well to Motherwell, I thought I was going to find a job within a month or something and before I knew it I was on it for two years and it just had its impact on me really. That's why I never, I didn't want to get back on your benefits, it's like precinctness benefits sort of thing. And then I can see obviously that the experience in Aberdeen was a bad one. Was it the doctor who suggested you go on ESA or the doctor signed you off? What was the process of just transferring from JSA to ESA? Was it your decision, was it your advice, did somebody advise you? It was my doctor because I went and seen the doctor before I went to Aberdeen and they advised me to go on the sick but I was just too scared to do it, so I just went to Aberdeen. Then I came back, seen the end point and they advised me to go on ESA for like six weeks or something just to get my pet together and then that's what happened, I went to a doctor and I got an ESA before I knew I was on for about a year. But the people in JSA, did you tell them that you're having mental health difficulties or dementia? They knew all about it. When I applied for JSA I mean you go in first and just ask you basic questions and I told them about the medication I was on, I told them about the medical conditions, so they knew all about it like that. But both you and they were saying that you wanted to get a job, so you'd rather be on JSA than ESA at that point in the week? Yeah, at the time, yeah, because as I said at the time I just thought JSA, that'll cover me till we get a job, which I thought was going to be quite something. And then when you're on ESA, what happened there was that you applied for it, now you actually got the benefit, am I right in thinking this, you got the benefit, you took a well to fill in the form but you were getting the... Yeah, you get £70 a week or something. But then, so then you're on filled in the form, the benefits weren't stopped or were you? I mean it took you seven months another to say that. No, it didn't stop, no. You did, right, okay, so I'm intrigued because clearly you didn't have a particularly supportive experience at the same time. I'm not sure you'd chew up on any of this official statistics because you went from JSA to ESA, you received both, although the process might have been stressful, you actually came through it and you were approved, you know what I mean? Yeah, eventually, yeah, I was approved and you came through it, yeah. And it sounds also, I mean I can be wrong with this, but it sounds as if the interview that you had for ESA was aimed at assessing your mental health. I mean it wasn't, we've had difficulties in the past because the whole system's designed around physical disability rather than poor mental health. But in your case, it did sound like they were trying to explore, perhaps not very sensitively, but they were trying to explore how and well or well you were. Yeah, there was nothing physical, not really, it was all a bit of mental health. Right, right. I can just ask James as well, yourself, that you had a, again, the transfer from JSA to ESA, was it your choice or theirs? I mean even a few delays but I was trying to work out, just trying to track the system as it were, was it, they suggested you apply for ESA or was it, you suggested it or was it the CAB or who was it? Well, I had to go on ESA because I wouldn't quote my words, I would put on that much tablets when I was at the cottage speaking to the women there, she was saying things and she was trying to get eye contact with me. I was there, I was there physically but I wasn't there mentally because I was so doped up, that's what I found hard. So is Sam H possibly that recommended that you apply for the ESA support? No, the doctor put me on the sick and I was on it for a while and because of all the changes and that, I was in touch with a mess, it gave me a few months' line and what matter when you get that, they sent you the forms for ESA and I followed them on and I was fine but I'm still getting flashbacks for that, it's all two and a half years ago. I get good days and bad days, I've been really nervous coming here. I know, well you're doing fine so don't worry about that part. Can I just check, because both of you have mentioned this about feeling under, I suppose feeling threatened by the possibility of sanctions or losing your benefit, have you ever been sanctioned in the last few months or a year? Well, when I was on ESA I just read it, I actually had to get my tablets cut down because I was going to boot like a zombie. When I got the tablets cut down, I was beginning to feel better but the doctor didn't seem to understand that I was still going through all this on my head. When I was, the ESA thing was for so long and my doctor was putting the pressure to not give me a sick line again and I just didn't, but I'm still with this on and I got sent for the assessment and the nurse that assessed me took me for so many points during the ESA nine and because of that I got sent to a tribunal and I had to follow other forms like John says and I'm looking, I've followed in the form, but I feel like that today and I didn't want to follow that one and so really, when I've followed in all those boxes, I always found that form looking like quite a good day so I didn't write hardly anything so I could understand what I'm saying and might be going for 23 points to nine. If I'd got me two and a half years ago, I would have been, oh you'd better go to the hospital, I wasn't that much of a mess, I would have probably been all the way up there and I just agree with that. That's how I meant it. Because of my circumstances, I mean, I'd actually shut down if I could, it's hard to time, I'm trying to understand what people are using. Well, could also ask John as well, because you were obviously very worried about sanctuary, you felt like, you said several times, you felt you were being interrogated or judged or whatever else and you felt very particularly anxious about the threat of sanctions. In the end, you weren't, where are you sanctioned? You weren't sanctioned? No, I wasn't sanctioned. Yes, but it's the, was it? Turn work out, I mean, do you think the process, turn work out what we could do with the process to make it less intimidating or less judgmental? I mean, do you think there are obvious things that could be done, you know, if you have to go along and you have to sign on and you have to demonstrate, you know, the state of your health, physical or mental. Is there any way, you know, is the story that you're hearing about the sanctions process that is making you fearful or is it the attitude of the people across the desk, a mixture of the form, the complications of the form, your own anxiety? I'm trying to work out which. It was both. It was the way I was getting questioned by the clerks, whatever you like in the desk. There's one time I went in and she looked to her and she says, you've not wrote the websites that you've been looking for, the jobs you've been looking for. And I says, I often then she goes, oh sorry, it's just like they're always track tripping up. And then you did hear about all this stuff. And I'm quite aware of what's happening, the changes. So, yeah, it was a bit of both. As for how things can be better. I start helping people look for work and say this from them out to read ab job cubs. To be honest, we just start helping folk, looking for work. It's just like, you get in there and it's like, it's just a gloomy, horrible atmosphere, really. It's horrible. It's just a one place to another place to another place to another place. Try and help us. I think what was interesting, particularly in your case John, is that when you had an element of choice, it made things, you know, I mean, Remply didn't work for you, which is interesting. And another, a couple of other experiences you had didn't work. But the sort of peer support you eventually had through Sam H, which seems to have been something that you opted for rather than something that was thrust upon you, has been more beneficial and more assertive. What was suggested, yeah, I went for them, and yeah, it has been beneficial, definitely. I feel, as I said, I feel they sort of helped. When I was just, I couldn't think of anything else. I was just down there. I didn't want to do anything, they were like, and I said we could go to college. Yeah, they definitely helped. Yeah, and I take it, can you see a sort of a path out particularly out of college, you know, with qualifications or training now that, yeah, possibly, yeah, yeah. We'll see you. It's difficult when you've had a bad experience already. I'm sorry? It's difficult when you've had a bad experience already to see what's going to happen next. Yeah, well, I'm just telling that a year at a time, at the moment. I'd like to go to college for a wee while, a couple of years, and then see what happens. Okay, thanks a lot. Okay, Chris Game. Yeah, thanks very much. Thanks very much. John and James, we got your evidence this morning, and I want to maybe carry on a wee bit where Michael started and where Ken finished really. When you went in for the interviews and any of the assessments, were you given any advice at all that you were allowed to take a support worker with you or somebody to help you? So you weren't informed that that was a potential option? No. I think it tells you on the letter if you think you see where you need somebody with you, but they didn't get to you, a doctor or this or that. Right, but when you took somebody, like your wife, then the letter in? I'm my wife. When I had a bad day and I was having a bad day, I could always get stressed when I go to them. I like my wife there. But what I'd went through, I had to get a taxi up because I wasn't able to have a bus in case I bumped into the guy at assault with me. So I mean, it didn't get you any idea, or even ask you things like that. No, even say to you when you get into the room if you've got a support worker coming or do you want somebody to be with you? Well, my wife was there and she didn't even ask if my wife would you like your wife to come around and she just says, I need to come. Okay, was that the same experience for you, John? I just brought it on my mum and I didn't know if she'd get in the room, I don't know if she'd go in the room. Did they say to you maybe you would like to bring a support worker or somebody to support you? No, not at our call, no. Okay, would that have helped? I don't have any contact with my doctor the last time. So that was the point. I didn't have any medical records. They don't assess me how they see me today. I don't know what happened the first time I was 19 and what's happened. I mean, if they had my medical records, then they could ask me some questions, like you're doing today. Would it have helped to have the support worker free sandwich with you? Well, at that time I was dealing with that much things. I would just want to get earned on me. But I would have probably helped if I had somebody to sandwich. I mean, because if I have any problems and I'm on a real downer, our instructor, he could actually sense that when I'm in and he'll ask if I'm okay. But if the place is busy, there's nothing to talk about. I've always got to find the time where I get and he'll ask what's wrong with you today because he sees it a lot. I mean, the person that assesses you is no there 24-7. You're not getting ticked up in bedside rooms. I don't know if I've seen you when you're having a good day or a bad day, I understand. Yeah, yeah. So it would probably help if they had taken all of the past history. I've never had any help for it. I went to the citizen advice bureau once, when I went to a tribunal. And I'm sorry to say, but I would have been probably better speaking for myself because she did the day a very good job. So that kind of put me off trying to get somebody to hit the bottom up. But if I were ever to go to that again, I would definitely have put a map behind me. Like, my instructor, if he was quite willing to come with me, because he could tell, I mean, the last two and a half years he's seen the wreck I was, the bottom now. I mean, I couldn't have came in this room two and a half years ago and never meant to speak to you. Okay, I'm fine. John, was that maybe something that would have helped you to have, you know, a recognised support worker there, somebody that you knew, knew you and uh-huh? Yeah, it probably would have, because they've seen me days when I'm not too good in things like that as well. I mean, they've seen me previous. I'll say it, it probably would have been. I think part of the assessment process should be that if you have got a support agency like that or a support worker or, you know, somebody that knows you really well, for them to give some sort of a testimony or understanding how they think you cope when you go to the assessment, do you think that would inform the process better? Well, it could, but I still think common sense should be used. I still believe that they should be looking into specialists that know you, that have seen you in the past and look at records and things like that, I think. That should be taken into account more. I know that none of you should say that you had had tiny sanctions, but if any of you experienced appeals, John, James, have you experienced having to go through an appeal? You said a bit of tribunal earlier. No, but when I first came back off ESA and I'm having the problem getting back on DSA, all the things were happening and the DWP, the first day I went with my wife because I didn't feel comfortable going back in to sign on and actually saw us do this together, and I wasn't a ten minute sat down and said, we're threatening the sanctions. I said, what do you got sanctions on me for? You're not doing an up job to everything. I said, I'm only just starting. I said, I can't even work a computer. That's how it's ended up. There had to go on a computer, of course, for nine months, and I got that for nine months. But seemingly, I don't know what's happened. Westminster took the pressure off, but I don't know if I can say it, they were like the Gestapo. John, appeals, did you have to go through any appeals? No. See, when you did have fluctuations with your income, whether it was coming off ESA and on ESA and any other, you said the STA, which is an old severe disability allowance. Were you signposted to any other benefits that you were entitled to? Did you have a huge impact on your earnings, your ability to heat your house and put food in the fridge and stuff? No, definitely. I would get affected by the bedroom tax as well, I had two bedrooms, and I had to pay something like £8 a week off that, so that was £16 off the £140, particularly £124. Reheating, electricity, bills rising and things like that. Yeah, definitely, I did. And they did need, when you were explaining some of that, signposts you to other entitlement you've got with the local authority, as far as mitigation are? Never get told anything. And if you're in a state of high anxiety and you might be worrying about paying your bills or that, how did that affect you? Well, I was kind of, I mean, my mum and that kind of helped me quite a bit with that. I can't really remember that much at the time, because when I was anxious, you're just thinking constantly, you're just worrying all the time, and then I was getting the medication which I was on and that just made dope to me right up. So a lot of the time was quite blurry. I mean, I was very, I just, I just wasn't functioning properly at all. So it kind of affected me. I was paying bills and things like that. Yeah. What about you, James? Was that some of the pressures? Well, when I was on GYSE and I suddenly decided I was fit for work, GYSE hadn't signed me off. So you were left for a period, was it four weeks without anything? Well, I got the sick link and GYSE hadn't signed me off in Cercodi, and I had to go through phone calls. My first one cost me £8, I got nowhere, and thanks to the cottage I was able to go in there and make the phone calls, but this went on for four weeks and I eventually found out, through one woman that I eventually got, that the job centre in Cercodi hadn't signed me off GYSE, and this is why I didn't get any money for four weeks. And I went through the same when I went back for that to that, and I had no money for four weeks. All right, I got bad data, but I thought I was supposed to live for four weeks. I had to borrow a friend's family. Just to make me know everybody's got that support like we've got. No, and if you get a mental health issue then having to go and ask for that. To that being even more stressed, I mean, that really put me on a downer. I mean, I can't imagine what that'd be like for somebody about the kids. I mean, I've got kids, but they're all up new, thank God, but my wife is a diabetic. And if I hadn't been for that, I'd actually have got a loan, which was about two weeks into the waiting for, and I only got that because one person actually had the sense to ask if my wife had any conditions. I wouldn't have brought about my mental condition, but when I said diabetic, oh, you'll get the loan. Okay, and that was a loan for the DWP, which can have you paid back off your benefits. If I'd given my money, I wouldn't have to go through all that rigmarole. One of the things that we hear a lot, I mean, I'm quite new to this committee as well, but obviously it's something that all of us have taken a big interest in, is all of these issues. See that issue about you not being signed off, one benefit there for an impact on another. Was that an experience that you had? Because some people I know that there was a phone in this morning, the radio actually in somebody's phone, and it says, they'd lost their forms and their records four times. Is that something that you've experienced a lot? I'm surprised they didn't say that the computer was doing it because before we had computers, that's what they used to say, but they've lost their form. Now they're used to like it all, but the computer's been doing them or having this or that. I don't think they have. What there was, there had been so much pressure on everything changing over on the DWP, and one department doesn't know what their department is doing, and trouble them got that sort of out, that's why I think, when I went, I mean, somebody in Glasgow I was speaking to, they were bringing up on the computer, they didn't again, didn't they tell them that JSA had in the time they are, it was actually one woman after about three weeks on, she actually had come up on the computer. The reason you're not getting your money is the job center hasn't pressed the button. Is that something you've experienced, John? No. No, really? No, no, really not. Sorry, can we just mark the very final question? You've given us a lot of really detailed, personal feelings this morning and how that's had an impact on you. Do you think that one way to solve some of these problems would be to have one key identified person that would be your person and that DWP would speak to you about everything rather than all that phone calls all over the place? Yeah, yeah, that's not what I'm here for. Yeah, okay, thanks very much. Can I also say thanks very much for coming in today, cos it's so important for us to hear people speaking directly about their experiences rather than through a third person, so thanks very much. I want to ask you, I mean, I'm not an expert in mental health, but my understanding of it is that self-esteem is really important, and it's a trigger. If your self-esteem is damaged, that's a trigger for anxiety and depression and listening to your testimonies today and reading through them. I'm struck by phrases like I was treated like a number or I was talked to very disrespectfully. That must have an effect on your self-esteem, doesn't it? It does. Yeah. Yeah. And do you think that there can be an immediate relationship between feeling your self-esteem damaged and getting ill, or is it a cumulative thing? Well, I mean, it builds that. I mean, if you've got depression or anxiety or whatever, somebody's talked to you, what a piece of that, I mean, you're going to take it personal, and then you're going to think about it, and then you obsess about it, and then, before you know it, if I'm not there too, you're a complete nut job. You just don't function, right? You just end up obsessing about it, and then you get really, really ill. That's what I'm like anyway. And you think on balance, the people that you encounter, not just in terms of the main assessments, but the people that you encounter in the system, on balance, how do you think that they treat you, the majority of them treat you with respect, or are you mainly treated with disrespect? I'd say bulkly with disrespect, but there is a few people that are just quite nice to you, like, I mean, quite sympathetic, but yeah, I'd say the bulk of people, it's just this professional cold attitude you get from them. So actually being in the system is damaging to you? Definitely, it is. Most definitely not. It makes you worse, it makes you worse. Is that your experience as well, James? Oh, definitely not mine. Yeah. I mean, you don't know what's gone on in my head, unless you've suffered a mental health problem yourself, and it's not easy to put in words, but I've found, whoever you are speaking to, there's still the stigma there, a lot of people. I said, well, I've got mental health problems. Well, they think you're a nutter. I've only had one or two, and on the phone, I've got one really nice person, and one person in the job centre that's treating me like a person. And if somebody speaks to you nice, you'll talk back so nice. I mean, if you've got the problems out of me, I've got the problems out of you back. But that's a good sort of attitude you've got in the job centre. I mean, that female that threatened to sanction me, she made sure everybody heard her, and my wife grabbed my hand and I said, well, sanction me. That was my first thing then. And that made you feel humiliated, did it? Yeah. Oh, well, I mean, I'm going to sanction you. How about you, Reart? Yeah. I just said, well, sanction me then. Just change the subject and then calm down. I must have thought she was speaking to a 15-16-year-old that was having problems with, I mean, I'm 59. How, in terms of the people right across the system, as I say, not just people that are doing your main assessment, do you think that they would benefit from more training and more awareness of mental health issue and how their behaviour can affect people's mental health? Yeah, it probably could, yeah. And I also wanted to speak to you about the effect of work you talked about your security course, which your security job is sound horrific, and you mentioned the course in computers. In terms of anxiety, it can go with depression, but anxiety can also trigger depression. And I suppose any change for any of us brings on anxiety, like a new job is quite an anxious time for everyone. But if you have a mental health problem, it must be particularly anxious, is it? Yeah. And do you think that you get any support or any recognition that the actual act of moving into work is a stressful, intense time that could affect your health? From the DWP? Yeah. No, not at all. They don't care, it's just a number. Get them into work, that sort of is. And what kind of, obviously you're both different, but John, what kind of work do you think is particularly damaging to your condition, your medical condition? Something that's really, really monotonous, it's just what you have to think about. I like to keep busy and do different things. If you're doing something monotonous or something boring, you start to think, you start to get anxious, you start to get depression creeps in, and that really is a damage impact on my health. Well, it's a security job when you're standing about and what you're doing when you're standing about. You start to think too much, and you get anxious, and then anxious goes to depression and... I mean, if I went up there and even tried to stick that, I would have lasted a week or something, to be honest with you. You're kept busy, you're like me that way. If you're kept busy rather than being a really born, your mind's not going back to how you're feeling. Yeah, totally. And having had experience of work that has been good for you, that you felt that it was been good for your mental health. Most of the experience of work-wise is really the voluntary jobs that I've done. I've done a furniture removing job, but I mean, it wasn't the most exciting job in the world, but it was just that you were going around how she's taken furniture. It was really a charity. It was like taking furniture and giving it to people on benefits and things like that, or you'd take donations and... Yeah, something like that was okay. I mean, it wasn't the most stimulating job, but it was, I think it was partly because you were driving about different places and... Well, they do say that it's helping other people when it's one of the best things in terms of feel-good, isn't it? It makes you feel better if you're helping someone. Was that your experience of volunteering as well? Yeah, well, some of it's helped me because, as I say, I was a wreck at the time. And when I first went to some of it, I kept myself in myself. And gradually, I mean, I've always been a new door person, so it's how much was good for me. But I've done a lot of jobs, but I've got a bad back now. And I've got a lot of problems. It's on the computer that I can't do any heavy lifting. And the first thing we're trying to send me for slantscaping, I said, I can't do that any more. I mean, I go on 59, that's not old. I said, you can try and lift a 3D2 slab by a bad back and mental health problems. So how do they help me? I mean, they're not even looking at your file. They're just going, what are you doing today? Did you get the impression from them that they had quotas then that they didn't really care that they just had quotas? I had to feel what the DWP has done in the last two years. They've got a script. Because I actually know, over the last nine months, I know their script. I know, I get sick with this one and this one. I'm going, oh, just like what John saying, they're trying to tip you up. I mean, when you've got mental health problems, unless you've written it down, you can't remember what, maybe, he asked you last week. But I've got whys to that. I've started writing things down. And I've tinted on the computer because I'm keeping that lugged as well. Trying to fight back. Okay, thank you very much. Thank you. Just one final question from me. The same mostly to you, John. But James, if you can answer this as well, please feel free. You've said in your statement you were concerned about the ATOS forum that you got. It didn't allow you enough space to give the information you would have wanted to do. That's a common complaint that we had that there was such a basic forum. How could anyone properly assess your condition on the basis of what you're allowed to answer? We've also established that the DWP is supposed to make that assessment not just on the basis of the ATOS forum that's returned, but also from what's called further medical evidence from the GP. The vast majority of appeals that are successful have been proven to be because information that was not provided at the outset later becomes available and it actually helps that person then to win the appeal. You've said in your statement that you didn't believe that information was taken seriously, that the people that know you best, the people who have assessed you and your consultant or whoever you've spoken to, and that their information should be given a priority. Are you aware of whether your GP provided that further medical evidence in your case? Have you spoken to your GP? Did they receive a request from ATOS to get that information? I'm unsure. I really don't know. I really don't know. I'm just wondering because... The first one is the GP who wrote to my GP and my GP said on the forum that I hadn't seen me for two years. Well, I hadn't seen me for two years because I got fed up going back to someone getting things with the tablets or something like that. The last time the thing went, I didn't even contact my doctor because I never got it back. Right, so you know that your GP was not going to... My GP wouldn't have backed me up anyway. I mean, that's what I'm trying to explain. Since I was 19, I've only had two doctors when I was younger, and the doctor when I started the stuff on him, he should have been a psychiatrist, never mind the GP. He actually popped my psychiatrist. But the doctor I've got now, I don't know him, I can't speak to him. He's got my medical record and I bet he's never even read it. Yeah, now the information we have is that over half of GPs are not returning the forms, they're not returning the information that's sought by the DWP. The fact that you didn't have to go in appeal means that they must have taken the information from you on the forum plus your interview and made their assessment on the basis of that. That's an assumption, but if you don't know that the GP provided additional information, we can't know whether it was taken into account or not. So I'm just checking to see whether that's the case or not. Well, when I went to the PO, the PO did say on the forum any further information, well, when I got my medical records, I took it in certain recent hands, oh, you've got, why did you not hand that on? I was tilt to go to the room for 10 minutes and the lead reporter gave them and some of that. I would kind of find any reason why we should still know because I've got the thing that I had to sign that we're signing the half-tenner that's fit. Okay. Is there anything else that John and James, you want to tell us? Is there something when you were coming through this morning thinking I really need to let these guys know what I feel about something? This is your chance to tell us what you... Well, trying to explain things to you, I think it has been noticed recently as well that GPs, there's not enough of them. My GP is only one doctor. Time to get an appointment now is a bit of a week. I'm actually really nervous because I've run out of my medication. I've only had two... My medication has been cut. I've no got a chance to get back to get my medication. I've been trying to get through to him and can't get through to him. Eventually I'm having to appointment. I've never had that experience with a doctor. My wife's got three doctors and that's what I was in when I was younger. But the GP, I'm under and out, and she's trying to get on to another GP's list. I keep it all over. We're only for a marriage, you've got a doctor. So I can't even change him. John, is there anything you want to say? No, I'm happy with your statement. Can I thank you both very much for coming through this morning? I know it might have been difficult at times for you to answer some of the questions, but I really do appreciate the openness that you engaged with us. I think that we've all learned a lot this morning from you. We've been really beneficial from the committee's point of view to hear your testimonies to us and your experiences of the system. We'll use that to build on the information that we've already picked up. We're going to continue taking these issues forward and challenging the system because the experience that you've had is all too common. I'm not acceptable to this committee, so thanks very much for giving us more information which helps us to take forward this issue on your behalf. Thanks to you and to Sam H for providing the support and assistance to making this year's session this morning. Thank you. With that, I'll suspend the meeting.