 Welcome to the Monday, October the 2nd, 2023 meeting of the Montpelier Design Review Committee. We'll let committee members and staff introduce themselves. Eric Johnson, member. Martha Smersky, member. Ms. Pritchett, member, alternate. Steve Everett, member. Meredith Crandall, staff. At this point, we'll let Meredith review the remote meeting procedures and process. Hey, I think most everybody on tonight has actually seen this before, but gotta go ahead and do it for anybody watching via Orchimedia. So, here we go. So the items on the screen are mostly for people watching via Orchimedia. But then there's pointers I'm sharing verbally that will be for everybody. So for anyone viewing tonight's design review committee meeting via Orchimedia, you can participate in the discussion using the Zoom platform through either video or telephone access options. If you want to use your computer or your smart phone, you can put this into your browser, put this link into your browser, type it in. 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If you're calling in over the phone, you can use star six to mute or unmute. Please reserve the Zoom chat function for troubleshooting or logistics questions only. If you have a question or comment about an item on the agenda, please raise your hand either physically or by using the raise hand button on your Zoom toolbar. And then wait until the chair has recognized you to speak. In the event the public is unable to access tonight's meeting, it will need to be continued to a time and place certain. I will now hand the meeting back over to the chair. If members have had a chance to look at the agenda, do I hear a motion to approve the agenda? So moved. This is Martha. I'll second it. All in favor of the agenda, speak your names. Martha. Eric. And Steve. Ben. Ben. And Ben, welcome Ben. Thank you. We can move to the first application for eight State Street continued. Applicant is Lucky Boardman for replacement of Windows and the residential units. You want to describe your application for us? Yes. Hi, I actually have Bill Morban on with me from RK Miles. He'd be more in depth to answer all your questions. So I'll just let him speak, but if there's a question I can answer, I'll be right here. Good evening. This is Bill Morban from RK Miles. Lucky is proposing to install or replace a couple of Marvin insert elevate units similar to the ones we did on Langdon Street. These have two over two simulated divided like grids, white exterior, white interior. I know one of the questions is half round or replacing as a half round. Our proposal is to do that as a straight top window currently. Basically the same window that it's exact same window that we're putting into Langdon Street. Were the original windows the arched glass? That does have an arched top. Correct. Was there a reason not to duplicate it other than cost? No expense. I think I think Lucky's plan, as we discussed, would be to try to keep the half round look with some carpentry work in the trim versus the window itself. Do we have an idea? Do we have an idea of what the cost difference would be? That's about 5 times the difference. So if a window is 100 bucks with a straight top, it's going to be $500 with a curved top. Yes, that's approximately true. It's a custom custom window from Marvin. The window certainly can be made. It's just the added expense. And how many windows are we talking? Sorry, I don't have that number in front of me. Lucky, you probably know that better than I do. I think there's 7 of them. It's the entire front is what we're going. So I can look, but you just had to put that there. I want to say it was 14. It looks like it's 14 from your picture here. Yeah, that's correct. I think we're doing it in phases, two phases. The first one will be half of that and then the remainder. And Lucky, the image I'm showing right here, this is different windows that have like the wooden inserts on the same building or is that a different building? That seemed to have like an insert above the rectangular windows. Looks like it's possibly the back of the. Okay, what is the exterior color? Lucky. They're white and the existing windows are white. Yeah, I think that's what we found. Lucky found when you did scrape them at one point. Okay. That's correct. The original seemed to be. So you're keeping the arched wooden trim and the square top upper sash would fit behind that. Is that the way it works? Yeah, I mean, some of that will come down to Carpenter. You know, Lucky's Carpenter doing the install, but yes, that would be the hope is that that trim that you see or a replacement piece of trim. The window has to sit behind that because that trim acts as a stop. Right. Okay. Thank you. So, would that trim be blocking off part of the window? I do not believe so. Just, just enough to hold the top of the frame of the window in. Yeah, the current, the current window sets up past that as it is now. That's how it works. Let me go to. So here's a view of the existing. Right. Is this the inside of the existing Lucky? Correct. Yep. Yeah. So basically the wood trim applied to the outside will cover the corners, the square corners on either side of the upper sash. That's correct. I think the goal would be try to, you know, keep the look as close as possible, but, you know, replace with an energy efficient window that's, that's operable. Most of these windows currently are barely operable. They have broken balances and they're probably quite unsafe. And I think that's the goal is to, you know, get as, you know, close as possible and, you know, be as energy efficient and also financially responsible. And obviously these windows are more than $100. So five times the value is, is a massive difference. Did you, did you actually get a quote on the arch top window? I did. What was the price per window on the arch top? It's about a $5,500 window. I don't have that with me, but I think that's what my memory serves me as it being. As opposed to how much for the. Square sash. About $1,000. That's okay. Yeah. Trust me as a commission based sales person, I'd love to sell the round top. I just only think a housing and it's a lot of additional money. Go back to the interior picture you had. Interior storms that now currently, right? Yeah, it has removable storms now. And the interior and what we're looking at is the window. I wonder if there isn't a way to. Insert a piece of. Wood that's shame to. Max the curb. Curves. Into the window. Leave the square construction and just. Put an arch piece inside. We can certainly investigate that upon install. Eric, are you saying in addition to outside? Yeah, I think, I think, I just think in a piece of applied wood that matches. And it would probably work. I don't know. I'm sure their local carpenters that could make something like that. I mean, I guess the question is. Lucky what did you have a. A plan on how you might address it in the trim work and the carbon tree to. Create that curve. Well, due to the cost difference and how to attach onto that glass. I mean, we didn't really. Have an idea because there. We were hoping. There was. Subtle enough that it wouldn't. We can. That upon install. I mean, I don't, I haven't seen the other window. So I don't know what it would entail. I mean, it could be simple. But I mean, what would I do glue to the glass? I don't know how it would look. Or how it would operate or change the operation. Sure. I guess my question was. More in doing. As I understood it from the beginning, the idea of having a square top window and then infilling above. With a. Curve. I don't exactly know how that works, but I didn't know if you had. Did have. Any sort of sketch or a plan. Other than what Meredith's currently showing us. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't think it has a way to manage it. Well, I mean, the original exterior sash is curved. So the wind, the square top would just be going behind it. The window itself does have a slight curve on it. But. As bill pointed out, the cost is. Substantially. Different. But I mean, we can look at when, you know, if this is approved, we can happily look at what, what we're going to be able to look to it. So lucky. I'm sorry. I'm just going to double check because I think there's different discussion points going on here. So this piece of, of trim that. My cursor is going over right now. Hold on. You make it a hand if I can hear this. Is going to stay. That's correct. And the, the quote unquote. Rectangular window is actually going to go up above it. So if you look at the top of like the window, like you, like here, it would be behind and above. Is that what you're saying? Still see some of it, but it goes behind and above just like that. Yeah. And so this piece of curved trim is going to stay there. And there isn't going to be like a straight line below that curve trim from the new window. Well, that will probably have a straight line. Yeah, there wouldn't. Right to that curve. The top of the window is thicker. Then the built up of that molding. So that when it. Top of the window hits at the low points in the corners, you will still see a straight line where that mullion. Is coming through. Is that what you're saying? No, that window sets up past that. That's the actual stop for the top of the window. I think if you sandwich. A piece of curved trim. Between the outer. Molding. And the. The, the window frame itself. I think you would be able to get the outer. The upper sash. So close to that piece of trim that you would not see that. I agree with that. I agree with that. I think at the end that that's that's it with that window all the way up. And then with a little trim detail by the carpenter. I think the look will be achieved. The top of the window now curve to match the. Brick and I'm holding. The frame. The window frame. It's square behind it here, Eric. See. You can see the brick here. I see that I see the. The glass, but then the frame here of the window square on the inside. Squared off. Okay. That's, that's what I understand. So they actually. The window fits into a flat top of that square. And it's the window frame. It brings the curve to the glass. Correct. Lucky, I'm certainly sensitive to your cost concerns. And. And it is a beautiful detail on this building. And I take your. Commitment to try to find some way during installation to allow that curve to stay accentuated. Which I greatly appreciate. I. Wish there was a way to visually see. How you might go about doing that. Until we actually get the windows. No. What kind of detail we need to do. I mean, it would be something as simple as, because it's such a distance. Staying it or painted it. I mean, it all depends on. What's in the hands. And obviously the cost difference is astronomical. I mean, I'm trying to figure out an alternative option for sure. I mean, we want the building to be as original as possible. Lucky, do you have a con contractor on board for this? Yes. We have. Excuse me. We have in-house staff. Okay. Have they done anything like this before? Yeah, we do a lot of trim, but not particularly, particularly to windows. I mean, cabinetry, I mean, I don't know if it's relevant, I would feel, but, you know, like I said, until we actually touch the window, hold the window to install the window, it might be something very simple. But I won't know. Are you intending to paint all that. That molding on the outside while you're also replacing those windows? I am. Yes. By the way, when you paint the trim on the outside, I highly recommend using a urethane primer on it. I would recommend using a urethane primer on the outside of the window to touch them again for another 10 years. Exactly. That's the paint plan. I guess that certainly by. The idea that you're painting there. Does make me wonder whether there's like. Once you pull the window out. Whether there's like. If required another layer of. Trim that went in to build, build in that opening. If required to maintain that curve and then not see. The straight of the window if, if that's what ended up happening. Realize that's a fair amount of additional labor, but. I'm throwing it out there as a concept. These, these windows are the Marvin integrities. It's well, let's say Marvin elevate today. The integrity was it's the, it's what was the old integrity line. Yes. Okay. Is that the wood frame or the solid. Wood frame. Wood frame wood frame. Barber glass exterior. Okay. There is a space between the. Upper sash in the outside of the frame. That you could insert. The piece of arch trim. So that it would be. It would be so close. Yeah, exactly. I mean, all right, like I said, our intention is to make it as close as possible. And we have the staff and the ability to do whatever we need. But. Until we order the windows and get them here, we won't, we won't know exactly what we need to do for that detail. Okay. And one thing I was thinking is that in the upper satchel and both sashes. You have, you know, the vertical muntin. Dividing the session to two pains. And so if you try to put a piece of wood up on the top. That muntin is going to. Be in the way. I mean, you know, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, that muntin is going to be in the way it to some degree doesn't project out very much. But anyway, it might just look awkward. I don't know. I'm. I like the idea of. Maybe doing a template to see how it might look. But I have a feeling I don't know, I'll be curious. But. I'm not sure if it's really a good solution. The ones we've installed, the muttons, the dividers are flush with the outside of the sash. So again, if you were, besides that, the top of the arch would be at the top of the, would be at the top of the, what the arch is now, would be at the bottom of that trim piece anyways. The upper sash only is lowered, so I don't think it would interfere with anything. I think there'll be a couple different ways to potentially mimic the curve, and I think part of that will be determined once we have a window on site and really able to dissect what's there. And I would like to think at the end of the day that exterior trim is going to, you know, what's going to continue to keep that round for us. How about this as a concept, and I again feels maybe a little laborious, but if we were to approve the windows, the square top windows, and then you were to pull one out and mock up a couple different ways that you might approach the curve and give us some photographs to say, and your recommendation and your thought as to what feels right to you. And then we could go from there. Does that, I don't know how others feel about that, but I would be in support of that. Well, I mean, yeah, if we gave a couple options and then you picked from the options, but I don't want to spend X amount of money and then have nobody happy with anything. I mean, like I said, at the end of the day, our ultimate goal is to make this as close as possible. And, you know, it's our goal. We want it to be as easy, but, you know, if we get the windows in and then tenants have ripped apart apartments and we're waiting, it's very difficult to schedule. And we have a lift outside on the street. So we're, so if it's, if I have to wait three weeks for an approval, it's, it's also difficult. I would like to, the board would just approve it based on the fact we are doing something positive for the building and our tenants and knowing that we wish to keep it as aesthetically close as possible. And I think we would all love it to go ideally like that also and be able to approve based on that goodwill and that, that idea. And it's not a, this is not a reflection on you in any way. Lucky it's just to making sure that we're setting a precedent and paying attention to these things and people's ideas of what, how they think things are going to go is always different than the way it goes for the next person. So we're just being somewhat careful about that, but it's not about you. No, no, no, of course. What if we make a recommendation that the arch is to follow the template based from one of the old windows and it's located as close as possible to the actual sash itself in the frame of the window. I mean, that sounds fine. That's our intent. Our members willing to live with that. Making that recommendation. I'm good. I would like to see what's going to happen though. Yeah, I'm, I'm struggling to, to try to picture it too. I, I like Ben's idea a lot, although I recognize that that is going to be difficult to bring about. If you repeat that, Steve, I didn't catch all that you had said. I was just saying that we would recommend that the template template be made from the original window to match the curve and that that piece be inserted in the frame of the Marvin window so that it's as close as possible to the upper sash so that you're not going to see any gap between the sash and that piece of trim. In other words, you could put it so it's about an eighth of an inch away from the sash and then that you would not see, see that gap. It would not be noticeable. Okay. Lucky. Is there any, man mute. No, is there any chance that any of those apartments are vacant at the moment? No, not at the moment, but that's why it's going to be a, you know, a process, obviously we'll schedule them and do what we can do. Yeah, I guess I was imagining in an ideal, maybe there was one apartment that was vacant enough that even if you didn't have the exact window, you were able to maybe pull that window out and put in something that represented that window's dimensions to work out the trim details so that that was all done ahead of time so you could easily just as you were putting in the windows implement the idea. Especially with the flood and the housing way it is, nothing's ever empty. Nothing, right. Yeah, totally. I understand that. And it's big for heat, so it's definitely something we want. Yeah, I think we would tolerate some foam in a window for a short period of time if that was what was happening, but I get that there's no vacancies. Are the current windows flat on the top? There's no curve from the very top of the windows and the curve is made up with a wooden piece at the top. That appears to be the case, yes. It seems to me that what Steve suggested makes a lot of sense. It should be, you should be able to put in an insert there that matches the curve of the existing window and that shouldn't be terribly difficult, a little labor intensive, but not impossible. And again, that could be inserted inside of the frame of the window itself. And again, in order to be as close as possible to the sash, you would want to install it within the framework itself. Yes, well, our goal is to make it as close to possible. Maybe that's a good compromise to, you know, we realize the expense of having custom windows made. And this is kind of an intermediary approach. My assumption is, is Marvin really doesn't want to make the windows with the top curve top. It's actually out at Marvin about a week ago and that round top curve top window is complete craftsman. It's all handmade, pretty impressive to actually watch, but that's where the price comes from. It's pretty amazing to see the Marvin plan out in War Road Minnesota. There's certainly a big difference between $17,000 and $90,000. I think it's important to have the inserts on the back of the building as well as the front. I think the windows on the back of the building were replaced by a former owner. That's correct, Steve. Those have already been done. You're just replacing the ones on the front. That's correct. Oh, thank you. If everyone, if the committee members are willing to go with the change based on the recommendations for installation of that arch piece of trim, if that's acceptable, I can go through the criteria sheet. This is Martha and I think I can live with that, Steve. Okay. I can kind of live with it in that it's hard to, everybody draws a different picture in their head based on words and definitions. Then I believe Lucky in his intent to do mimic that curve. It feels essential to me to make sure that there is no flat exposed at the top of that curve. So I don't know how to like distill those words into something that feels like a very easy thing to comprehend or see is where I'm struggling a little bit. To Steve's point, just the fact that we will do our best to mimic the existing file is about all you is as simple as I can get, I believe. We just make a template from one of the existing upper sashes. Yeah, exactly. And then transpose that to the inside of the frame of the new windows just outside of the upper sash. And again, as close as possible to the upper sash. Yeah, I'm following. And again, I can write that in the recommendation form. If that's okay with everyone, I'll go forward with the reading the criteria exterior design and materials of new construction or alterations of existing buildings shall be consistent and compatible with the characteristics of the existing building or other properties in the district. The removal of historic materials or alteration of features and spaces that characterize an historic property shall be avoided as much as possible. Character defining features finishes and construction techniques or examples of craftsmanship that characterize an historic building shall be preserved. The deteriorated character defining features shall be repaired rather than replaced when possible where the severity of the deterioration requires replacement of character defining feature, then new future features shall be replaced in kind. Any treatments that cause damage to historic materials, including but not limited to chemical or physical treatments shall not be approved. With the recommendations, this would be acceptable. Existing buildings shall be recognized as a physical record of their time, place and use. Any new development shall be differentiated from the old, but shall respect and be compatible with the massing size scale architectural features detailing an overall character of the primary historic building and nearby historic properties acceptable. Alterations to buildings called for by public safety accessibility and fire code shall be designed to maintain the character of the construction materials and features to the maximum extent feasible acceptable. Proportion, compatibility of relationship between width and height of facades as well as relationship of width to height of windows and doors acceptable. Rhythm, visual patterns established by the alterations of solid walls that open the openings windows and doors in the facade of a building shall create a rhythm. So that's being maintained. Architectural features, including but not limited to cornices, windows, shutters, fan lights, trim and other forms of molding or character defining detailing prevailing on the existing building shall be considered in the alteration of a building acceptable. Outdoor lighting fixtures. Is there any change in lighting? No, none. Okay, so that's not applicable. Windows and doors on historic structures, character defining windows and door patterns, placement sizes, proportions and original features, such as trims, sash and molding shall be preserved to the extent possible. When preservation is not possible, such character defining windows and doors must be rehabilitated or replaced in kind. Windows and doors that are not character defining may be replaced, but such replacements must be compatible with the historic building style, materials and architectural features acceptable. All in favor of the application with the recommendations as far as using the template from the existing window and installing that in the frame as close as possible to the upper sash. All in favor of that speak your names. Eric. This is Martha. I can say yes with the recommendation. Steve says yes. Yeah. Liz says yes. I guess I'm going to say no only because I still don't think the language is clear enough that if an issue arrived that anybody would really be able to parse that out, but I don't know that I can make the language any better and I think it'll pass with my no vote. Okay. So it does pass four to one in favor and Meredith, you want to explain the next step? Yeah, so I'm lucky. I will get the recommendation form from Steve because there is a recommendation that's basically going to be a condition on the permit. I will need your signature on that before we can issue the zoning permit. So I can either email that to you or I can let you know when it's here so that you can sign it, which would you prefer? Yeah, if you can shoot it over an email, that'd be fantastic. Okay, so you'll be getting probably at least one, maybe two of those, but once we see where it's in the next application goes, but I'll email those recommendation forms and then you'll just have to sign them off and then send a scan of that signed page back to us so that we can move forward with stuff. Excellent. Thank you. Thanks, Lucky. And just a quick little note for committee members. When it's a design review sort of a reminder for these applications that are only going through design review and don't go to DRB, your recommendations do become conditions on the permit, but they, you know, I can understand Ben's issues because I don't get to play with the language at all. It's whatever your condition, you know, your recommendation is that becomes the condition because I don't have the discretion to tweak things and that's the other thing. If you try and put in a condition about like somebody having to come back to you, I can't really issue a permit to authorize them to begin work on condition that they come back if something's a problem. So it becomes a little tricksy. Okay. Okay. Thank you. We can move to the next application for eight Langdon Street, Langdon Street Apartments LLC, reviewing a new above ground fuel storage tanks with high down pads and screening fence. Yes, that is me again Lucky Boardman and I have Alicia with me to help describe this and hopefully answer any questions. Thank you. Hello. We were proposing originally to do two underground propane tanks. However, in this location, the Department of Public Works opposes that. So we were forced to, if to have these, we want to put them above grounds. So we have tie down pads, concrete tie down pads and then because it is in the design review district, we certainly wanted to put in some of the fencing just to screen the views. I did my best to create some images that showed what I expected to propane tanks with a little section of fencing from either the Riverside Elm Street and then also from Hazen Place. It was just proposed to be a kind of what we call typical screening fence with made out of wood. And it's not it's not going to cover the entire width of the opening just the one end by the tank so that we can still access the tank and maintain and the fuel can be delivered and on the Elm Street, the Riverside, we would connect we would do the full length of full width of Hazen Place. So it would be probably two sections of fencing to create a screening visual screen. Can you describe where the tanks are going or do we Meredith, do we have a slight plan? We do Meredith, would you mind pulling up? Thank you. So this is the site plan. So Main Street is here and this is Hazen Place that goes down to the side. So here's Langdon Street here and here's Hazen Place which goes back and gets down to this parking area in the back. And so here's where the two right now. There's underground fuel tanks here, but these are going to be above ground and here's the longer stretch of fence on the Riverside. And here's the short stretch of fence so that they can still get accessed and then I'm going to scroll up to those images that Alicia was talking about. So here's what it looks like now from across the river and then there's the fencing. I'll go in. So this is that. Is this the parking lot next to the building that has like the barbershop in it, Alicia? Maybe. Yes. I think this is, I think this building here is the one with the barbershop. Yeah. Yep. And then here's the view from like the Onion River parking back side entrance, right? And here's what it looks like now. And then here's with the mock-up of the tanks inside and the fencing. Does that help, Eric? Yep. Thanks. Looks good to me. I have a question. Were you able to get a waiver to get those above ground tanks that close to the building? Yes. Lucky maybe can speak more. I believe there was discussions with the building officials. Is that true Lucky? Yep. We had everybody come out the chief of the fire department and Michelle and inspect it previously just to make sure everything was. Because I think usually it don't they require you to keep those 25 feet away from the building? It's 10 feet. So we're one quarter foot and a half different sort of variants. Oh, okay. I wasn't sure what the requirement was as far as the dimensions and you're pouring a pad and set the tanks on the pad. That's correct. I would suggest when you pour the pad that you put some screw anchors into the ground. We have two indoor fuel tanks that were about a third full 2275s. And when we got flooded we didn't fill the tanks with water, but at a third full they lifted a five inch pad. Off of a base. Okay, thank you for that. So we are changing that to anchor them beyond the tanks were elevated to keep them as high as possible. But we're now going to have to go into the concrete floor of the building to anchor them so they don't float that pad was over 2,000 pounds and it floated. I would suggest a screw anchor into the ground when you pour the pad to give you additional grip in case you don't want those things to start to float and then move around with water moving through if that ever happens again. Yeah, I would assume Alicia's formula compensated the weight and buoyancy of that per whatever state or national specs required. Yes, we did do a buoyancy calculations for both the thousand gallon and then the 500 gallon propane tank with a factor of safety of 1.3. So it should it you know points though the water being in the area should not lift it up because the even if the tank was completely empty that the concrete weight is in theory holding down that tank in place. Good. Just just speaking from experience. Absolutely every flying UT propane tank floating down the river from somewhere so we definitely want to prevent that. Any members have any other questions? Nope. No. No, okay. Then I'll read through the criteria that applies. Existing buildings shall be recognized as a physical record of their time, place and use in a new development shall be differentiated from the old but shall respect and be compatible with the massing size scale architectural features detailing in overall character of the primary historic building and nearby historic properties that's acceptable location and appearance of all utilities mechanical equipment trash storage and fencing shall be cited to minimize adverse visual impact were adequately and appropriately screened from public view that's acceptable. And lastly landscaping screening and site furnishings projects within the district shall be subject to landscaping requirements and she'll consider the following and again landscaping could include fencing fencing for mechanical mechanical equipment screening. Law also infenses shall be compatible with the site and the building scale traditional materials and design that reflects the period of the building and or is compatible with the surrounding context acceptable. All in favor of the application speak your names. Erick. This is Martha. I say yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And yes vote is five in favor. Thank you. Excellent. Thank you all for your time. Have a wonderful evening. Thank you very much for coming and good luck with your projects. Thank you. We can move to the next application for 125 Berry Street another way. This is for a new exhaust bin and when to replace someone there to describe the project. Sure. Yeah. This is Joel Page. I know as I haven't seen you in a long time. Yes 125 Berry Street you're all probably familiar with the important service that they provide in town. They work a lot with transient folks give them an opportunity to have a place to stay during the day and to touch base and to get services and an opportunity to look at other opportunities. The current building that they've been using has been worked on over the years and we're in a current new renovation trying to provide some updated interior ADA replacement of a bathroom and some other interior finishes on the outside of the building we're looking to replace 22 of the 38 windows which are in poor working condition and also extend. They have they have a kitchen that they use to provide food for the folks who come during the day and it needs to to meet code have a range hood that extends outside. So looking to extend the hood outside of the building itself. The building sits back really from the bulk of them from Berry Street by quite a bit and also sort of from the railroad tracks and stone cutters way by a bit. So it sort of hangs out in the back background that most people don't really pay attention to. Most people actually probably recognize the building from the greenhouse that you see when you're like you're driving to the co-op and the windows throw most of the building except for two or three are gobble hung windows traditional the ones that haven't been already replaced are wood framed wood sash windows. We're looking to replace the windows with a vinyl insert variety reasons for going with the vinyl insert primarily cost also durability the windows you know the building isn't as well maintained as we might like to have it always maintained. And so this will help improve the reduction and help reduce the amount of yearly uptake and maintenance that happens. And that's kind of primarily the big picture. Most of the windows that are on the building right now have a storm windows on them. So that obscures the existing sort of look of the buildings as we're used to and we're hoping that the new double hung replacements will be a little bit clearer and show a nice look to the building. Are they they just double hung one over ones. Yes, they are. Yeah. And where is it that you propose that this kitchen vent will be it's on the back side. So if you're looking at this screen right now. Yes, you can see it on the right side of the building in the background there is a wind right right up there. Yeah, exactly. And then we have some other views that show you know how you might see this back side. This is from a back parking lot. There is a couple of views from the railroad tracks as well. So that there's natural vegetation well sort of vegetation trees that have grown up there over time that are in vacant areas and that helps screen the building from its most visible location and the way the building sits with the other buildings sort of close to it that elevations side elevations relatively hard to see. Okay, thank you. Were any of any other windows explored other than the paradigm vinyl windows? No, well, I think the I didn't do the exploration kind of contracting is helping us on the project. I think they may have looked at some wood replacement insert, but the price was quite a bit more and we have a really limited budget. So we're trying to stretch it as far as we can. Okay. Are these true vinyl or are they fiberglass? They're vinyl. Yeah, fiberglass would probably be up closer to a wood window cost. And what is the exterior color of the windows white? Yes, and the current windows are white. The building itself is clad in old aluminum siding that looks like lap siding. Okay. Any windows are you talking about? 22. So that's all sides of the house then, correct? Correct. Yeah, except for the there's an extension on the building that was built. I don't know when that is where the greenhouses that were not touching any of the windows on that. I think those are existing. I think they might be vinyl windows in that night, but I don't know that for a fact. I think that extension is fairly recent. In the last 15, 10, 15 years, maybe. Not sure. Yeah, you might be right. I think last Genghis architects. Building set back from the street quite a bit, isn't it? Yes, it is. And it's been altered a bit too, I think, from its original appearance. Hard to tell, I don't know, but I mean, there's some integrity there, but it seems like not a whole lot in my opinion. So at this building in this location, everybody's okay with the vinyl windows? Well, I was going to say, as a matter of precedent, we did ask Lucky, who was just on this call last time, saying we weren't okay with vinyl windows and he came back with another variety of window. But I realized the location is different and I get all that. But are we, if we are within a design review control district, are we then as members of the committee able to choose which part of the district we care more about than others? Good question. You know, I mean, maybe you can make that subjective, but I think there's also a lot of architectural evidence that State Street is the buildings there have maintained very much original character, whereas I think this building on Berry Street does not have the architectural significance that, for example, Lucky's two buildings do. And I went through the same thought process and thought I think that's part of our job is to make that differentiation. I would certainly like to hear the difference in price between fiberglass windows and these. I don't know whether it's significant or not. These are pretty simple windows. I mean, another thought would be to put fiberglass windows on the part that faces the, what is it, the east elevation that faces Berry Street or something that's, you know, maybe more appropriate than a vinyl window. Let's, we should look at the photo of that space. I think it's the north elevation. Yes. That's it right there. So that has a mix of fixed units, the two larger ones, a door, which is a nonhistoric door, two nonhistoric doors, and then those double hung units. And I, and only two of the double hung units are being replaced in that elevation. Why? The other ones have enough integrity that we think thought we could keep them. Are they wood, Joel? I don't remember. I would have to go back and look. Okay. Which, which two are being replaced on the porch or up under the eaves? The one, yeah, the two of the letters on them, that's ones that have the letters in the view. It's kind of like it's winking at you. I'm sorry, the two on the right side of that porch on the second floor. So on the, in the gable end, the left one as you're facing the building on the second floor, the right one next to the tight closest to the door. And on the first floor, though, the large non-double hung window. But that upper right window stays the same. Correct. But the upper left one's being changed. Correct. And so how do they match? When you, when you look at the window, so because it's an insert, all of the exterior trim will remain. The interior stops get pulled off, the sashes get pulled out, the sash weight pockets that remain get, would get insulated. And then the insert goes into the existing rectangle that's left. The stops go back in and the window, you know, when it's put in, it's cocked and sealed. So a double hung window will look this. It'll have the same feet, same dimensions as the existing window. So the idea would be that when you look at it, you should not be able to see the difference, even though if you look closely at this photo, there are two different size windows that are already. We noticed that. On the top. We did notice that. So some of the, and to be honest with you, I don't remember what is original there and what was added at some point in the past, more recent past. You know, there's so much new, new, new material on this building on, including those dormers on the roof that don't appear historic in my opinion, but I'm not, you know, it's hard to tell from the photograph. I'd have to go up and look at them more closely in person, but you know, there's just so much that's, it's hardly contributing to the historic district anymore. I think. Yes, it's. Again, the fact that it's set back where it is makes it makes a big difference. I guess it's up to us to decide whether to make a decision based on its location and its current condition as to whether, as to whether to let, you know, approve the vinyl windows or even on the front side. Is everyone okay with that? I might as well, if you're going to do vinyl windows everywhere else, but I'll put them on the front side is one of the real issues with vinyl stability, because you're not going to get the life out of the vinyl windows that you would out of five or less. Yes. So it says maybe a short term savings, but a long term cost. As far as vinyl goes, the paradigms are a step up, but not quite to the level of the, like a Marvin fiberglass, like integrity series or the and now it's called the elevate series. One thing I would like as a member of the committee is to, you know, if there is alternates to bring the real prices to the meeting is so that we can tell what the difference is. I will try to remember to make sure we get that. That would be very helpful to compare, to compare the cost of a vinyl, even a good quality vinyl to a fiberglass. And again, the fiberglass, like the Marvin fiberglass windows are so close to the end. Again, that's a wood frame window with a clad exterior, it's fiberglass, which really mimics the historic profiles of wood sash windows and wears very well. Again, for future. Just to remind you because there's been so much discussion about the windows to make sure that everybody understands about the range hood going in into an old window location. I'm certainly good with that. It's good. Put it in an old window location though. Yes. I am too. Yeah. I'm okay with that too. Yes. I'm fine with that. I don't also, I mean, I agree with all the arguments about the building not being contributing and it kind of already being a hodgepodge and it already being sort of like put together and not a contributing structure. I am sensitive to the fact that we have asked other individuals to delay their process and come back to us because of the vinyl window thing. And now we're saying that doesn't need to happen on this project. So I guess to echo Eric's point. If there is a way to ask our applicants to say will you bring us prices for this? If you're thinking vinyl will you also have a next step up in a fiberglass window as as something that they can get out ahead of this question. I don't know if that's a fair thing to ask them before they come, but I'm tempted to ask to delay this to have him come back with that price comparison, but that just feels overly bureaucratic. So those are my thoughts. Look at this in the humorous side. We're just continuing the traditional treatment of the building with vinyl windows. All right. That's a rough building. I was involved in part of a project on it and it provides some huge good services to the homeless community or unhoused community. I guess it's appropriate now. Yeah, I agree. Eric, I think it serves a wonderful has a wonderful service to the community and it's an important structure for sure. Then I really appreciate your view, but I really think as part of the charge of the committee to make some judgments in that kind of regard, consider other factors. I mean, this is a lot different than Lucky's buildings and maybe great buildings that have been better preserved in the past. I agree and I appreciate that feedback and I think it is good just to have as part of the record that there's some thoughtful discussion around it. Yes, no, well taken. As far as this project goes, I can go through the criteria if everyone looks like everyone is willing to live with the vinyl at this location. Exterior design and materials of new construction or alterations of existing buildings shall be consistent and compatible with the characteristics of the existing building or other properties in the district. The removal of historic materials or alteration of features and spaces that characterize historic property shall be avoided. Character defining features finishes and construction techniques or examples of craftsmanship that characterized in historic building shall be reserved when possible deteriorated character defining features shall be repaired rather than replaced where the severity of the deterioration requires replacement of a character defining feature. The new features shall be replaced in kind any treatments that cause damage to historic materials, including but not limited to chemical or physical treatments such as sand biosting shall not be approved. These windows and the remainder of the changes at this location are acceptable. Existing building shall be recognized as a physical record of their time place and use. Any new development shall be differentiated from the old but shall respect and be compatible with the massing size scale architectural features detailing an overall character of the primary historic building and nearby historic properties. Location and appearance of all utilities and mechanical liquid trash storage and fencing shall be cited to minimize adverse visual impacts or adequately and appropriately screened from public view. The range hood is acceptable. Alterations to building all for by public safety accessibility and fire codes shall be designed to maintain the character of the construction materials and features to the maximum extent feasible acceptable proportion compatibility of relationship between width and height of the sides as well as relationship with the height of windows and doors acceptable rhythm. The visual patterns established by the alterations of solid walls and openings and doors and the side of a building shall create a rhythm needs are maintained in their existing locations. Architectural features including but not limited the corners of this windows shutters fan lights and tablet or trim another forms of molding or character defining detailing prevailing on the existing building shall be considered in the alteration on the building acceptable. And lastly windows and doors on historic structures character defining windows and or patterns placement sizes proportions and original features such as trim sash and molding shall be preserved to the extent possible. When preservation is not possible such character defining windows and doors must be rehabilitated or replaced in kind windows and doors that are not character defining must be maybe replaced such replacements must be compatible with the historic building style materials and architectural features acceptable all in favor of the project. Speak your names here. Martha. Liz. Steve and Ben. So 5 in favor. Meredith you want to explain the next step. All once I get the recommendation form on this one Joel because there weren't any actual changes recommendations will just get the permit out as soon as possible because everything you're doing is all interior no changes of use so we don't need to do an administrative site plan so we'll get that as soon as possible. Do you want it mailed or do you want us to email and have to make them pick it up. Whatever is easiest for you can work it either way so I can you'll get it sooner if you come pick it up probably because the mail still a little bit more in that much of a rush. Okay then we'll mail it. Appreciate it everybody. Thank you. Thank you Joel. Meredith is someone here for College Street. No nope that's going to have to get table to the next meeting. Okay then we can move on to the last application for 15 East State Street is someone here from East State Street. I'm here. Tim Heaney. Hi Tim. Go ahead and describe your application. I'm getting your building open. That's great. No thanks. Then all your buildings. Well that's really no I've got a gone back to ground zero on a few others that we didn't pay as much attention to trying to get the stores open. Sure I'm definitely referring to the ones across Main Street all in that line that all showed up open was impressive. Thanks a lot of people as you know including you. So Tim can you just sorry I'm going to move it along because I've got 15 minutes before my next meeting starts so Tim if you could describe what is going on at 15 East State Street. Okay so all it is is probably classic story you're hearing over and over we're needing to move the utilities up out of the basement. We had an oil hot water boiler and to 275 gallon oil tanks the elevator controls and our electrical service are all in the basement of this building so to comply with the rules for taking an upstairs space that's close as we can get to the elevator shaft so we'll be able to build a separate space within it for elevator mechanicals and controls new boiler room where you have propane boiler and all new controls and pumps. So the electrical go outside on the south end of the building towards City Hall. I think this permits primarily the door on the uphill side of the building for Miles Court. We're basically wanting to remove a window it's a casement window and install a three-foot metal door. It's kept the utility side of the building on an alleyway and so the intent would be just put the door in painted to match the building and would need I think three steps into the alleyway for access. And then the propane the new tanks too right. Yeah I haven't done a bunch of work on the tanks. The initial intent was just to put them down at the end of the alley toward parking lot. It we're just it's basically the hot water heating system because we have district heat. This is going to be just for the swing seasons. There's a pretty expensive way to cover the spring seasons when it's not on but it's all we got to do. So that being said I don't think we need a huge fuel capacity. So that's what we were thinking like two 200 gallon propane tanks on the end toward the city parking lot and obviously we put on concrete pads and tie them down. So that's here Tim is where those tanks are going to go. I think I'm probably going to have to come back on that one for you. I apologize for not having the details because the location we can go is around the corner. There's a large enclosure for an air conditioner unit that may be a better space that we can set it off the building better. Does that make sense? The other areas around the corner from where we're looking. Yes. And I did not take pictures of that into the building. So it would be around back in here right Tim? Yes exactly. And kind of right where your little hand is waving on that is that's the enclosure that bumps out for there's a pretty large air conditioning unit there. And there's a little there's some extra space around that not a lot but there's I think we have enough to be able to pull the tanks far enough away from the building and protect them. Tim those are already screened aren't they back there? The air conditioner is yeah. Yeah. I'm just going to see if I can pull up a different a Google Maps view so you guys can see that in case you want to give a sort of a conditional or an approval of if it goes in there so that Tim doesn't necessarily have to come back if it's going in that space where it's already screened. I mean I think Tim before we before Audra was able to issue the permit for that we'd need the details on the tie-downs but here we go. So there's screening here. That's off because there's the dumpster and behind the dumpster is the air conditioning unit. Is that right Tim? Right. Yeah this is from about a year ago so. Secure. So there is a better view. And will the tank fit into that space? Yeah I mean we may have there's a chance to modify it Steve. And certainly our work handle how we handle our trash differently or there's a couple of options with how we do this. Okay. But it'll be in that general area anyway and it'll be screened by the fencing. Right. So either here or right around the corner in between these two structures here right? Yes. I'm willing to approve both of those. Yes. He needs choice. Looks fine to me too. Okay sounds good. I'm okay too. But with the door as well. Yes. So I'll read through the criteria quickly exterior design and materials of new construction or alterations of existing buildings shall be consistent compatible with the characteristics of the existing building or other properties in the district. Additions and alterations to non-historic and non- contributing structure shall respect and be compatible with existing patterns and setbacks found in adjacent buildings new additions on non-historic and non- contributing structures and overshadow or diminish the historic character of adjacent contributing structures are prohibited. These changes are acceptable at this location. Existing building shall be recognized as a physical record of their time place and use acceptable location and appearance of all utilities mechanical equipment trash storage and fencing shall be cited to minimize adverse visual impact were adequately and appropriately screened from public view acceptable alterations to buildings call for by public safety accessibility and fire coach will be designed to maintain the character of the construction materials and features to the maximum extent possible acceptable proportion compatibility of relationship between width and height of facades as well as relationship of width to height of windows and doors acceptable rhythm visual patterns established by the alterations of solid walls and openings windows and doors and the facade of a building shall create a rhythm acceptable here architectural features including but not limited to cornices windows shutters and lights trim and other forms of molding or character defining detailing prevailing on the existing building shall be considered in the alteration of a building acceptable and lastly regarding landscaping screening and sight furnishings mechanical equipment screening here is acceptable all in favor of the application speak your names Eric Martha live Ben and Steve five in favor Steve are you going to put on there the option for locations for the I don't think the application had two different options for location of the tanks I think the application said to the east so maybe just put in a little option that it can go behind the building in the existing near the existing area for the AC units if that requires minor alteration of the fencing let's go with that to okay yeah thank you I just want to make sure he has those options depending on which is preferable both for flood and for building yes no either location is acceptable that's fine thank you I just let's me get the zoning permit out the door so at least he's got the one permit that we can keep moving down the down the line I think you've worked out the details on the window and door with Michelle right Tim yeah yeah so that way with the zoning and stuff we can get moving good thank you Tim thank you good luck with this one and all your other projects thank you you too okay thanks good night good night everyone had a chance to look at the minutes nine five and nine eighteen I never got a copy of the nine five I wasn't in your packet no I've closed my electronic packet you weren't at that meeting I wasn't nine five nine eighteen you weren't you got it I'm looking at the wrong one yeah I mean my other meeting supposed to start in seven minutes so if we wanted to just table both of these to the next meeting that's doable too and I actually I didn't have a chance to look at the nine eighteen myself and I have some edits to that version so where I noticed some typos so I can get a cleaned up version of that for the next meeting okay we'll table that one for the next meeting any other business no otherwise do I hear a motion to adjourn so I'll make a motion to adjourn well since we have a second all in favor of adjourn let's speak your names Eric Martha Ben Steve some meeting is adjourned thank you all for coming