 Hey guys, before we start this episode, I want to very quickly promote my friend Barry James book counting stick control Barry is one of the last living students of George Lawrence stone. He worked with stone. I believe back in the 50s and He had all the information directly from stone primarily on how to actually count stick control Stick control is one of the most famous books in history, but it does not include the count Some parts are easier and you can figure it out But there's parts in the book where it gets to be a little bit crazy to try and do the counting in your head alone So this book is a massive help for anyone who's trying to count through stick control themselves The book on its own without knowing Barry is worth buying, but I will say that Barry has been Battling cancer for a while now. So if you buy this book counting stick control from Barry for $25 It's 1995 plus $5 shipping in the US and then just we can figure it out if you're outside of the US It directly supports his cancer treatment for him and his family and all the money goes to him He prints it himself. He is mailing them himself. He's doing everything. So to get the book though I'm gonna help out and kind of keep track of things a little bit on on my end through this email me at drumhistorypodcast at gmail.com again drumhistorypodcast at gmail.com and then I will connect you and Give you the right PayPal account to send it to get to Barry and I'll get your address to Barry and we'll make it work To make sure you get a book. So again email me drumhistorypodcast at gmail.com We'll get you the book and you are directly supporting Barry So I really appreciate everyone helping and considering it and now let's get on to the episode about 1960s drummers Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by mr. Bob Seansi to talk about the great rock drummers of the 60s Bob welcome to the podcast Well, thank you very much for having me. So Bob Let's just this is a lot of cool stuff like like I mentioned with the title you you wrote a book great rock drummers of the 60s You wrote it in 1989. It was super popular It went it sold out you it became a collector's item. There's a whole story there Let's just hop in here and I know your story sort of corresponds with Coming up at that time Learning about these drummers then you know the the world of music changing So just take it away and tell us about your beginning and all these great rock drummers Sure. Well, I Got interested in learning how to play drums when I was about 13 And I'd seen the Beatles on Ed Sullivan And I wish I could say that that changed my life, but it really didn't I Didn't take the Beatles really seriously in the beginning and part of the reason was I was really into my parents big band records at the time and I was listening to Glenn Miller and Tommy Dorsey and liking that big band swing sound and I guess I was little a little out of my time at that point, but of course we all listened to top 40 radio a.m. top 40 and It got to the point where that was really Not what I wanted to listen to anymore and about that time we started getting an FM rock station in New York City that we could listen to that was W. O. R. F. M. And I started listening to more of the British bands the Rolling Stones and then the Beatles were coming out with things that were a Little more interesting than yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I want to hold your hand. Yeah, and I Started really getting in Into the British bands, you know, I it was listening to the Stones and that the kinks and You know the big of course then the Beatles and the who I saw the who on Shindig, which was a popular Teen TV show on I think it was ABC TV And I saw a video of the who Playing I can't explain live And I saw Keith moon and I went That's who I want to play drums like That's the guy. Yeah, you know, and then then I went back and discovered Charlie Watts and Ringo but I started buying the records and Buying 45s, but buying albums really and Whenever I had any money, I'd go buy albums and I ingested all this information about the drummers and Just inhaled it and I used whatever Resources I could I was reading You know the stupid rock magazines that were out then like 16 and Tiger beat and all you know These silly magazines, but they had information about the bands So I would do that and I found a candy store in a neighboring town That had rave magazine rave magazine was a British import. It was a mod magazine So I'd get on my bike once a month and ride to this candy store was like four miles away and Buy rave magazine and it's our articles about all these British bands so By listening to the music by reading album liner notes and magazines and so forth. I just built up this Incredible amount of information about 60s rock drummers and That became more and more and more as I went along and my parents they had retired to Richmond, Virginia and Having dinner or something and I was talking to my mother She said, you know so much about these 60s rock drummers. Why don't you write a book? And I said, well, that's a pretty good idea So it just so happened that my wife and I were friendly With another couple and the husband owned a small music book publishing business So I contacted him I said I've got this idea for a book He said, well my little music publishing company was just bought by Hal Leonard Biggest publisher of music books in the country. Sure called it's right time So, okay, I told him what I had in mind. He said write a chapter and an outline get it to me And let's see what we can do. So about two or three weeks later. I hand delivered it To him typed it on a typewriter, of course, we didn't have computers He liked it. He sent it to Hal Leonard and Three weeks later. I had a contract. Wow. He said get yourself a lawyer. Look it over We did I did we made some changes and I got a book deal so easily That does not happen these days. I mean you don't unless but really it's just a friendship It's through your friend But even now I mean I feel like publishing and everything is so hard. It would be Nowadays you would do this online. It would be a blog. It would be something like that But it's it's pretty cool. That's you're you're a lucky guy to make that happen, you know, exactly I was very lucky. I just happened to be at the right place at the right time and know the right person And I could have shopped this to any number of publishers and probably got thrown out the door But I just happen to know the right guy at the right time and he wanted it unbelievable Well, okay, so that's an amazing story of how it came to be. It's almost meant to be but Let's jump into the actual content of the book and the the 60s rock drummers Which I think it's it's been mentioned on the show a lot before but You said you liked the big band stuff I mean what's what's what's interesting and I think you know people need to keep in their their mind is These rock drumming icons Would have grown up with that kind of music that would have been what they enjoyed and their parents listen to and and the gene Krupa's and the buddy riches and the Joe Jones and these these guys it would it It's it's what made them who they are so it makes sense. You liked that well, I think so I Know that Ringo always liked swing music And you can hear that in his playing, you know, Charlie Watts was a jazz guy You could hear it in his playing sure and I think the British drummers Had more of a tendency To like big band and American jazz more than the American drummers did and of course then the American drummers copied the British drummers so Yeah, I think the gene Krupa's and the buddy riches and the Joe Joneses and the Sid Catlett's and guys like that were a big influence on those drummers Yeah, but then the the world changes and it's less. I remember in the Keith moon episode I did Tony Fletcher. I believe said that It was as if the world switched from black and white to color in the 60s Which you know in many ways it did with all of the the vibrant colors and the hippie culture and all that stuff So for starters with the content of the actual, you know, 60s drummers Who would you put as the like this is the moment? This is the drummer that it that it happened. I Gotta say Ringo. Yeah, Ringo was the bedrock of all of that Before Ringo what was there before the Beatles what what was there? Rock and roll was kind of in a state of I Don't know flux You know, you had teen idols you had There were artists out there that had integrity like Roy Orbison, but when the Beatles came along I Always say you kind of had to be there and you and and live through that hysteria That happened on February 9th 1964 Watching the Beatles on Ed Sullivan. It was like they were four aliens from outer space We had never seen anything like that before we never heard anything like that. Yeah, and I've got to put Ringo right at the Beginning of all Sure because he inspired so many people. I mean millions of people Changed everything. Yeah, I mean even just from an industry standpoint I think I heard something it may have been, you know, some Hyperbole, but I think I heard someone talking about recently on how how Zildjian like 90,000 orders placed or something like that for symbols, which at first I'm thinking oh my gosh, that's crazy But then you're like, well, maybe that's not so crazy because Ludwig got so overwhelmed so let's just go through then and Who are the like who would you? List let's make a little list then and we can kind of dissect each one the great rock drummers of the 60s Like if you have to choose I think we we can kind of imagine our Mount Rushmore of rock drummers and then I'm sure there's There's slightly lesser known ones and it can go forever But but who do you put in this great, you know, the greats the greats? Well, Ringo number one Charlie Watts Keith Moon Bobby Elliott from the Holly's Kenny Jones from the Small Faces. Yep. How Blaine I Could you not have how Blaine? Yeah He's almost someone you wouldn't put on the rock drummer list but of course he is because of all of his work on so many different songs that You know, he just kind of played in the background and but I love how I mean he of course belongs on that list Liberty DeVito once said I Found out the ten of my favorite drummers were how Blaine. Yep You have to say also ginger Baker sure Dino Dinelli One of the real real top guys. Yeah, of course. I interviewed Dino I had lunch with him one day in New York City Went back to his apartment about a week or so later. We did the interview there and he was a very friendly guy, but very Kind of a hermit You know lived in a very small studio apartment over by Central Park A little enigmatic you might say kind of kept to himself. Yeah pride Johnny Barbada from the Turtles and cross be stills Nash and young and Jefferson airplane and Starship and He grew up about two towns away from me in New Jersey Well, let's see let's let me open the book sure and we'll take a look here Well, while you're looking I'll say that there's some guys like that where like maybe I haven't heard of them because in my I'm different generation But and I've done a I mean I've watched a lot of drum videos I've done a lot of research on a lot of different drum topics, but it's like There's so many iconic people who maybe don't get their mention because they didn't live the fast lifestyle they didn't you know Keith Moon and John Bonham just Become icons for not great reasons, but they deserve You know they deserve praise and there's I love that I love looking on the internet at old drum solos and finding someone you go Who is that? I've never heard of that person and they're a monster player. There's tons of them out there And one of the reasons I wrote this book was to give credit to some of these guys Who never got credit? Yeah, Bobby Elliott was one of them and I have to mention Jerry Edmonton from Steppenwolf Yes, love Steppenwolf. Jerry was a huge influence on my drama. I Love Steppenwolf and I loved his playing and I got to interview Bob Jerry and get to know him But again just looking at my table of contents Carm on a piece Nick Avery of the kinks Michael Stewart where have you ever heard of Michael Stewart where I don't think so you've heard of the band love, haven't you? Yes He was the drummer not the first drummer, but from the second album second album third album He was the drummer in love from California Mitch Mitchell, how can we forget Mitch Mitchell? Yeah Yeah, yeah, he Mitch Mitchell has so one of the most popular episodes of the podcast that's on YouTube The audio as well, but there was a Mitch Mitchell episode that didn't even have video it was just us talking it was before I did video and Man that people loved that episode but Mitch Mitchell I learned a lot about him and and his incredible plane and he's one of those people who People are just super passionate about his style. It's the mix of the swing style and and it's like it's that it's like a cross generational transitional period of technique and style where you're getting The 50s and then you're getting the 60s and then you're going into the 70s and it's all a big You know gumbo different styles Mitch was influenced by the bop drummers elvin jones Tony Williams the same way that Charlie Watts was now their styles were nothing alike Charlie was more of a straight ahead player, but Mitch took a lot of chances and I absolutely love Mitch's playing Remember when I got the first Jimmy Hendrix album played it and I said, oh my gosh, this drummer is incredible Yeah, I just loved his playing and In the band I'm in now occasionally, you know, we do a few Hendrix tunes and for a while we were doing Wait till tomorrow We have a bass player on the band is saying that and I always loved Mitch's drum breaks on that and the drum breaks on little wing Oh my god. Oh, yeah, it's It's hard to put into words just how it's you can hear it There's something special when you can hear it and like immediately know who it is Obviously, those are like some of the most famous songs in the world, but you could probably just like Hear isolated drum tracks on maybe a lesser known track and go. Oh, that's Mitch Mitchell. Oh, yeah Very recognizable. Yeah, very recognizable. Ian Pace is another one who I've grown to really like Because his work with Deep Purple. It's just like You I've seen some different videos where you go like, you know a lot of these guys really know what they're doing as far as like rudiments and And being taught kind of the right way not that there's a wrong way, but like coming up very very I don't know well educated and you can you can tell that they use that in their drumming But Ian Pace especially I think it's just a monster drummer who it's sort of both both sides He's very well respected and in our circles But maybe you know, the name doesn't get thrown around at the kitchen table Just like Buddy Rich and John Bonham like everyone knows but Incredible player. Oh, yes Ian was always overshadowed I think by John Bonham Bonham is a household name and Ian Pace I Prefer his playing but one thing to keep in mind is that Ian Pace I I Have a little section on him in the book, but he's not really a 60s drummer. He got started in the 60s but His heyday was the 70s Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Yeah, and even Bonham could fall into that category cuz I mean Zeppelin was like what 68 69 69 to 80. Yeah, so so that's an interesting point But but if you then put it I mean just to kind of discuss it if we're talking about the beginning of this boom being with the Beatles on Ed Sullivan in like 64 then it's like there's a pretty small window for these You know iconic 60s rock drummers, which what a special time. Let's talk about drum sets a little bit because They they clearly changed From from being a rock, you know drum world where they grew you'd obviously have like I mean, I feel like four-piece sets were pretty common before Ringo before Charlie Watts I think of like, you know, Max Roach would be playing it. They'd obviously have different variations But like they got bigger. How did you see that progression go? Well, of course Ringo was always played a four-piece set Charlie wants always played a four-piece set You saw drummers adding a second floor Tom like June Krupa did yep and buddy. Yeah, buddy and Johnny Barbetta had two floor toms Dave Clark Had two rack toms Just about all of us started on a four-piece drum set that's Mostly what we had You had a five-piece set available in the Slingerland catalog of the Ludwig catalog but most of us started with four pieces and I think it was Guys like Keith moon who's starting adding who started adding more drums Pretty soon. He had four rack toms and two bass drums and Two floor toms and multiple cymbals and Carmine a piece Was very instrumental in going with bigger drums He was one of the pioneers of that big drum thing Carmine always said well, you know Led Zeppelin was an opening act for vanilla fudge sure and He saw my Ludwig set with the big toms and the big bass drum and he wanted the same thing He said I called Ludwig and hooked it up for him Of course ginger Baker used for Tom Tom's and two bass drums and he had many symbols stacked and So he was a pioneer of that. Yeah multiple drum kind of thing. Yeah, Nick Mason Pink Floyd Using more of your spread out, you know to two bass drums, but I've seen him a lot with I think it was in that live at Pompeii It was like one Tom in the middle might have been two but then two floors, which they're bigger drum sets But it's kind of neat to see just like one Tom in the middle of that monster set But I think the finishes were pretty cool as well. You have Keith moon kind of Getting more interesting with with what is it the pictures of Lily? Finish on his drums and then there's a lot of sparkles a lot of different things white Marine Pearl seems to be going a little bit That's a little bit. Maybe their dad's drum set. So they were getting a little more experimental with that, too Well, sure white Marine Pearl was always associated with Jean Krupa and Buddy Rich and the swing drummers that was the the popular finish now back in the 40s in the 50s and When I started it was sparkle finishes, of course, love we had their oyster finishes After Ringo appeared on Ed Sullivan, they had so many orders for black oyster pearl drums and Just drums in general that love we was running 24 hours a day. Yeah To fulfill orders. All right, Bob. Well, let's talk about some specific drummers I want to preface this with everyone always has a favorite different drummer. So there's a probably a lot of really specific kind of drummers that may not get mentioned today But leave them in the comments if you're watching on YouTube your favorite 60s drummers if you're watching this on YouTube But Bob, let's talk about some some of the icons There's been an episode on a lot of these but I'd like to hear kind of it's just fun to talk about them One of my favorites I was had the pleasure of meeting him in 2019 Let's talk about Charlie Watts because he's kind of a different kind of a different beast really he's he's got He's got his own style it completely. He's pretty mellow dude in general, but let's talk about Charlie was You know rich King. Mm-hmm rich as a friend of mine I Was finding drum sets Vintage sets for rich when he worked for that music store down in Annapolis, Maryland and so we got to know each other and Charlie was appearing at the blue note in New York City with his jazz group and Rich said come into the city. I Think I can introduce you to Charlie. Of course. This is after the book was published. Yeah, nice. Of course So I drove in the New York We went to Charlie's hotel and Rich was waiting to go up to see Charlie. He said I can't thank you up, but I will take you to the blue note You can meet Charlie at the blue note. So I waited rich was up there for a half hour. He came down we went to the blue note and Charlie by the time we got there Charlie had been there Was finishing his sound check with his group Hmm playing all Charlie Parker material He loved Charlie Parker. Yeah, and and I remember Charlie coming out with an alto sax in the beginning and squealing into it and then took it off and got behind the drums and But before their sets started Charlie came over and I was introduced and he said, oh, how do you do? Very proper English gentleman. Oh, yeah, I gave him a copy of the book and I thanked him for all the inspiration He had given me over the years and the great playing and he said, did you sign it? I Said, oh, of course. I signed it Charlie and we got our picture taken together, which is up on my wall now, of course So we stayed we listened to the group. They were they were very good and Charlie played great Really great jazz Jazz player didn't even play a four bar break. Just play time. Mm-hmm I'm driving home And I'm thinking Charlie Watts asked me for my autograph Something is wrong with this picture. I'm driving, you know, yeah, that's Charlie though. I Mean, he's the most humble modest guy where But he's really the exact definition of kind of that crossover from jazz to rock drummer where I feel like he just sort of like and in my Experience meeting him that one time was like he was just like, you know, yeah the Stones. I'm more interested in jazz I mean, he had his jazz books He had all his stuff and that is so cool that you gave him a book though because I feel like he It's not just like something where he, you know, it gets lost on the plane on the way home You know what? I mean, I mean he loved that stuff. That's huge. Well, I I hope he read it I hope he enjoyed it. You know, I never got to talk to him again. Yeah, but It was a very interesting experience to meet him. Absolutely. All right, so then give us another drummer Let's you your choice pick another 60s drummer someone you interviewed for the book that you think is an interesting story Do you know Denelli who I regret let me say that I very much regret I had people recommend him I very much regret not speaking to Dino and getting him on the show when I could So that was a that was a miss on my part very sad As I said, I Got to know Dino when the Rascals tour in 1988 I was able to get a backstage pass and Spoke to Dino again after the book had been published gave him a copy Interesting story when I was over Dino's apartment. He was in the middle of having the apartment painted So there wasn't a lot of furniture. I guess he has furniture and storage. So we were sitting on the floor He goes come on out in the back. I want to show you something. He lived on the ground floor And he had a patio out in the back and there were two green garbage bags And he starts going through the one garbage bag and he's pulling out pieces of broken hardware and cracked symbols And he pulls out a red sparkle Roger snare drum with the bread and butter lugs and He said this was the drum that I had when I started the Rascals Wow, I recorded the whole first album With this drum good loving the whole first album and He said you think you might want it. I said, yeah, I want it What do you want to do? What do you want? Well, you tell me what you want. You won't let me think about it and Dino it was hard to get on the phone. I had his phone number and he would never answer the phone. He had an answering machine Sometimes he would call me back. Sometimes he would sure but a couple of weeks went by and I called I left a message I said Dina, what do you want to do about the snare drum? Didn't hear from him Called him a couple of weeks later. I want the snare drum. Let's talk Never heard from him. I Finally sat down and wrote him a letter. I said Dino. I really want this drum Just tell me what you want what do you want to do never heard from him years went by I He sold it to the hard rock cafe Anyway several months ago This drum showed up on reverb and the top head was on a griff to Don I have a feeling it was Don Bennett. Sure. I think the drum wound up in Don Bennett's Stable his vault. Yeah and There was somebody the seller on reverb is out on Long Island And he's asking I think close to seven thousand dollars for it No, but he really hung that kind of carrot out there for you to kind of like go after but Geez Louise that you must have been just thinking I mean, I know that feeling of kind of yeah, I want it. Let's do it. Let's do it Let's do it and Clearly he you know later on in life. I'm sure that was a good Maybe the hard rock cafe or whatever could have paid a lot more than an individual would have paid which Obviously, you don't play in the guy for taking going that route, but Not fun for you. No, I just wanted him to tell me just give me an idea How can I acquire this from you? But I didn't even get that so it was you know, I was not meant to have it But I just thought it was very interesting that it showed up years and decades later on Reverb, you know for all that money. So yeah, yeah, no that's interesting and it's funny It was just in a kind of you know I'm sure it was the the bag was just outside of his place because of the painting But it's just interesting he had all this stuff just piled in there Outside, I mean This drum that's worth all this money is sitting in a garbage bag outside. I I was amazed Yeah, do you have other collectible drums that you've acquired? Is that something you do? Well, I did And I wound up selling Selling what I had Jerry Edmonton sent me a Lovely sup supra phonic 400 that he used was stepping off and he autographed the head Cool, and I had it for years and years and I finally wound up selling it, but I kept the head I Kept the head nice now one thing that I do have that is very cool. I Like the 13th floor elevators. You ever heard of them? I've heard of them I've probably heard I'm assuming assuming they have like a couple big hits. That is the reason I would I would remember the name The song that you would know is called You're gonna miss me That yeah, that was their only thing that came close to being hit you're gonna miss me by the 13th floor elevators and I Got to know their drummer John Ike Walton They did a reunion concert in 2015 Back in the 60s John Ike had a drum head that was painted It was a very psychedelic kind of thing and He had another head painted for the front of the bass drum for that one concert. Hmm. I Bought it and I have it cool So awesome. Yeah, that's something up. That's not going anywhere. Yeah. Yeah, I mean there's that's a That's a world that has gotten very expensive the collecting of these these I'm sure it was expensive before I mean, it's iconic like you're not gonna buy Charlie Watts, you know Symbols or something for for inexpensive and at any point but now it seems like it's gotten Astronomically expensive. Well, John Ike was very fair. I Bought the head for 250 bucks That's not bad It's very fair. Yeah, and I called him after the show and He said, yeah, I got this, you know the front bass drum head I'm I want to sell it. I said, well, how much you want it goes 250 bucks. I said sold. Yeah, I send you check Easy, that's not bad at all. Yeah, very easy Alright, so give us who else did you get a chance to you know, meet and speak with for the book? And and you kind of told me when we were off off air for a second that you would send tape recorders To people with a cassette tape, which I think is really a neat way to do it Because sometimes the scheduling of interviews and you're not doing really like what we're doing where it's all gonna be live You were doing you just needed their content, which is a neat way to do it, right? Well, as I said, I would send them cassettes record your answers send it back and When I revised the book in 2006 It was a little easier to do it number one because we had the internet and I had that at my disposal And I was able to get in touch with Michael Stewart where he lives out in Lake Tahoe. I had talked to Sandy Nelson pretty Extensively I Had talked to Kenny Jones But Kenny Jones called me one morning. I was getting ready to go to work and the phone ran and my wife picked it up Kenny Jones is on the phone Okay, and he wanted a couple extra copies of the book I was not able to speak to Ringo See I had three sections of the book the first section was profiles and These were articles mainly on drummers Who I could get in touch with, you know, although there were Exceptions to that and then I had a section called very special mentions This was ginger baker Mitch Mitchell Ringo Charlie Watts Guys who I couldn't get in touch with For one reason or another And the way I found a lot of these guys was to contact either their record companies or their management That's what I did with the Hollies. I contacted their management. They put me in touch with Bobby Elliott And then there's a section called honorable mentions and I it says the good the bad in and the missing in action And these are all the drummers who I did not write a chapter on but I wrote a little paragraph Or a larger paragraph depending on who they were When I revised the book in 2006, I completely did the honorable mentions section over again Because now I had the internet and I was able to look up. Okay, the drummer in the Jay Giles band or the drummer and Hmm Whoever if you're let's see if I can come up with one Yeah, the drummer in the move the British band Bev Bevin Who went on to play with? electric light orchestra Jimmy Carl black who was the drummer in the Mothers of Invention? Brian Bennett who was the drummer in the shadows? Yeah, the British band sure And and I was able to flesh out these little mini bios Much better because I had the internet. Yeah so In your experience of talking a lot of these guys I feel like it's pretty common with music where oh if you're in a band that's really big in the 60s That doesn't mean that in some cases that you are in a huge band in the 70s 80s 90s through the rest of your life With the exception of the the major you know iconic ones that we all know who were in your middle section We're even a guy writing a book of really with how Leonard can't get in touch with them What was a common trajectory for drummers that would be in a band let's say that had a couple hits in the 60s I mean was it typically that you would just keep gigging throughout the rest of your life and kind of make ends meet Or did you run into it where people would then get kind of straight jobs and You know what I mean like what would what would people be doing if it didn't last for 40 years Whatever they could yeah, some people stayed in music some people didn't Some people moved to behind the scenes jobs Some people died Yeah, sure it's sad but true, you know and and and that's happening more and more now with these guys, you know Vis-a-vis Jeff Beck. I mean of course you're not a drummer, but Jeff Beck my god, of course. Yeah That was a hard one that was a hard one to deal with because I was a big yard bird spam Yeah, and I still am and I got to know Jimmy McCarty the drummer from the art birds and now we're on a first-name basis I Go see the art birds every time they're in the area You know, yeah, and even got to jam with them one night and I love the New York City Yeah, I got to play with the art birds one night. I was looking around and I'm going I'm playing with the art birds What's wrong with this picture? Well, it's hard work hard work right place right time Being a good hang, you know all that really and being you know I feel like with doing what you did and and have done with this with the book you you don't you can't be drooling and like You know like to Just over the top with it So clearly you were respectful and had good questions and all that good stuff and it's it's pretty neat I mean, that's it's an iconic time without a doubt. I think the 60s rock drummers and especially I mean, there's a lot of American ones, but the British the British invasion kind of I think for a lot of people Is what they think of with those famous those those Brits come into America Absolutely, absolutely funny though When the book was published for the second time Hal Leonard had a publicity girl and she was a real go-getter And she lived in New York City. She played bass in the punk band and She set up several Phone interviews for me with small market FM classic rock stations mostly out in the Midwest you know Illinois, Indiana, Ohio And I'd go on the radio with these classic rock jocks and you know for five minutes or so Inevitably they would say to me, okay, who was the greatest 60s rock drummer? And they all did it Yeah And my answer was Ringo And they were mystified Ringo I didn't think Ringo was that good. I know I start Ringo kind of like Hitches wagon to a to three really talented guys. I said no no no Yeah Ringo had and he still does has great time He has a great feel He does what is necessary to make the music work He doesn't do anything That's unnecessary And he inspired millions of kids to pick up drumsticks He was the gene cruba of the rock era Yeah, and that's why Ringo was the greatest rock drummer of the 60s When they were expecting like, you know, of course you want to hear everyone probably assumed you were going to say like John Bonham or something like that because of that drum solos and its classic rock stations and they think ginger baker mitch mitchell, which they are iconic, but um That's it's just like you can't first off that question We all know as drummers is just sort of a silly question where it's like, you know, everyone sort of rolls their eyes like This being a drumming podcast. I would never really even think to ask that But joe schmoe on the radio, of course goes, you know, you know, bob, who's the best? You gotta, you know Come up with an answer That's why they were mystified at my response. Yeah, and I'd say, you know, ringo from a technical standpoint didn't have the chops of a buddy rich or a Ginger baker or a carmine apiece But he did what was perfect Yeah, what was what needed to be done? And I always think the uh, you know, I always think the The switched thing where he was left-handed, but he grew up playing a right-handed set because I think his grandma or someone was like, no You need to play it like this. So he has that whole mixed up Which hand is leading style which makes for the most interesting kinds of fills like that where Him and charlie like we said are very, um Uh, they're polarizing where they're legends icons, but they're in the same era. They're in the same category as Ginger baker and mitch mitchell and keith moon But they're so different There's there's room for everyone, you know, we all approach the drum set differently No two no two drummers play like And I'm a big little feet fan and I love little feet a words. I love richie a words drumming and I knew Richie and um We had gone to see him in a theater up in westchester county, new york And he goes, I got a new dw set. Come on. I want to show it to you. So we took it. He took me up to onto the stage and Onto the stage Let let me play them and he goes, yeah, you know None of us played the same way, you know, just a very off-handed comment, but it was it was correct And also I know that charlie was once said that the kenny jones. Did you know that kenny jones? Played drums on the song. It's only rock and roll The rolling stones tune I had somehow heard that or seen that somewhere and then was like I got to look into that and then I never looked into it. Wow Kenny jones played drums on its only rock and roll And he was in the studio with the stones and charlie couldn't get there or something. So they said here kenny you play And so he laid down the drum track and they used it and later he said I apologize to charlie He said now it's all right. You sound like me anyway I mean it does like honestly from from being a big stones fan, too It's like you you hear that and even going back to the Beatles There's like something where someone someone might say, oh, that's paul on drums and you're like, well, I didn't really notice You know, I didn't it didn't stick out but kenny jones is an interesting fellow where You know filling in with the who and taking over, you know what kenny jones told me he said So of course, I was very good friends with keith. I was with keith the night before he died And after he died bill kurbishly who was the who's manager Called me he said come in for a meeting with the band And he said we sat around for a while and drank some wine and reminisced about the old days and then he said pete went You have to join the band. You're one of us. You're a mod Kenny said I didn't want the blankety blank gig to me He said but the money was so good That I couldn't turn it down and he said I was in the process of starting a band with some american players and He he finally said, okay, I've got to go talk to these guys and see what they say And he did and and they all said kenny the who just asked you to join the band. You have to do it Yeah, just do it. Yeah, so he did and he said but I told them I don't play like keith Don't expect me to try to be the next keith moon He said I I do what I do. He said there are certain drum parts that are Uh necessary to the songs and I will try to recreate those But i'm not going to be keith moon No, it's different. Well, because if you're trying to be him and then you You're never going to live up to it completely because because What the great quote you just said we all play differently. We're all different but uh, and I don't think zack starkey plays like Exactly like keith. I think they're all different in 2008. I went to the nam show in anaheim And I was in the premiere drum booth And the guy there said Mandy moon is going to be here tomorrow They were rolling out the pictures of lily reissued drum set. Yeah And he said Mandy is going to be here tomorrow. I said I would love to meet Mandy moon So I went back the next day and sure enough there was Mandy moon and she looked just like keith So much like him. I thought I was looking at keith moon and I talked to her for I don't know about 10 minutes And one thing that she said to me was My father Had undiagnosed issues Yeah, and and they were never addressed If he has lived Maybe They would have been addressed Not that's really all she said about it. Yeah I mean that This whole topic of rock drummers of the 60s. It's almost like these guys in a way were like the guinea pigs of like Like let's make our let's be put these icons up on a pedestal. They they party so hard They can take drugs they can drink they can you know live this extreme lifestyle But it killed a lot of them a lot of them suffered from it and and if you if you mix that with some possible underlying mental undiagnosed problem It's a recipe for disaster, but I guess now we have that as a It's like a case study of like What what can go wrong when you go that far and those guys did it? John bomb classic example classic example drank himself to death. Yeah Yep Well, it is what it is. I mean and again that's And again, that's just sort of uh That's the dark side of things which these guys lived great lives. They you know when they were alive It was a fast rock and roll lifestyle But not all of them were party animals who who passed away. I think that's obviously It's worth saying that though. There's a lot of guys who who went on to have great careers Like you said with other things and continuing to drum and become icons and legends for for many years to come so Bob, why don't we as we wrap up here? You want to tell people the best place to find the book? And obviously there was a revised version. So tell them which one to get and all that good stuff Well, you would be better off to get the revised edition. It's better as as I said I had the internet at my disposal When I revised it so there's got a lot more information Uh, the as far as I know, I know you can get it on amazon Now there's probably other places Online that you could find it But they've got it on amazon and I would say get the revised edition um When we decided to revise the book And the reason we did it is because I found out the book was going for two and three and four hundred dollars the first pressing And I said I called my publisher and I said hey, we got to do this book again So I revised it um I got an advance, you know, this time I was able to do it on a computer and email it over and um The book came out again and didn't sell as well as the first one So there there are copies out there, but I but I'd say go to amazon get the revised edition Yeah Yeah, that makes sense that happens though. I mean it was out. It was the boom the revised it's more, you know It's it's it doesn't change anything. It's still a great book. Um, and you should be proud of I mean it becoming a collector's item you you clearly I'm sure you burst the uh the guy's bubble who had it up for sale for $500 or something by Now you can get it on amazon more power to him if he got that kind of money for it Yeah, I didn't make anything off it No, that's a common tale that I hear about books is it's just but but this needs to be out there There needs to be a book You can think of some kid who's going to the school library and he goes Oh great rock drummers of the 60s and he opens it and who knows what that kid will be, you know He could be the great rock drummer of the 2030s or something like that It's funny because uh, you know, I talk to guys online on drum forums and there's this one guy And he's asked me about four times when you're gonna write a book on 70s rock drummers. Well, you know, I'm not I'm not And the and the reason I'm not the number one. I I don't have as much knowledge I could get the knowledge if I wanted to yeah publishing a book these days There's not enough money in it anymore To make it worth all the work Sure, and I would probably self publish it anyway And incur the cost of publishing it Um So I'd choose not to I choose not to I did it. I did it twice I'm happy with that and that's Let it stay that way. Yeah, completely understandable You don't need to do a series and then it'd be bob when's the rock drummers of the 80s coming out Let it let it be Let it be is right. Thank you paul. Yes, exactly. So um, well bob, this is great I'll put per usual everyone listening. I'll put a link in the description Of uh, where you can get the book. I see it for sale on amazon right now for 12 91 Which I'll put that there pretty cheap. Of course, you know, it's it's a must have for any drummers collection of books So, uh bob, thanks for coming on the show. I really appreciate it You sharing your knowledge and and and being a guest on the show Bart, thank you for having me on. I really enjoyed it