 Basically, he was working as a consultant to the Dallas Cowboys, trying to train their quarterbacks, how to play that game fast, who claimed it was teachable, that you could maybe as a quarterback has to take in the whole big picture, open focus mode, and see the whole picture, lock in on a receiver, and then only see the receiver and exclude everything else. So, in that case, just in a matter of seconds, hopefully, fractions of a second even, switch modes from open, parallel, massively parallel, to tightly focused, on a target, on an objective mode. Right. Really, that's where I see consciousness existing, it's like what it feels like to be in superposition, in collapsed way, for what you've decided something, and it's communicating. Consciousness in the system, to me, as a controls engineer, is where we handle the undecidable. And so, that's why I'm on the same wavelength as Roger Penrose, when I say it's got to be a quantum process involved in all of this, when it comes to consciousness. And within the spectrum of consciousness, I see masculine consciousness being a serially dominated mix of the two's, parallel, and it's more deterministic, but it's still got to have that tension with the background, and feminine is more holistically oriented, and it's still got to have that objective center that's provided by the masculine side. So, just saying we're playing with a spectrum of consciousness across the space, that's one side closer to the parallel aspects of it, and one side closer to the linear, serial aspects of it all. So Jeff, welcome to Simulation, good to have you on. Also really good to get connected by Ori for that episode, yeah. Looking forward to playing together, especially on the conversation of paradox, which is so fundamental to the nature of what this is. So there's sort of two ways we can take this, we can take this in giving a bunch of context about you and how you came to where you are today, which I think is helpful, and then we can also jump straight into paradox. You can also weave, if you'd like, yeah, the two. So why don't I'll pass it over to you and you can take over and then I'll interject as we go through. Yeah, some go with the flow idea works pretty good, I think, but one problem I'm facing here paradoxically is that the language part of my brain is the opposite side from where I mostly live. Anyway, because I look at it as, anyway, I kind of feel like we are occupying an adaptive general purpose controller, which is our neurology of our, our evolved neurology of our brain. And for some weird reason, it had to be split in half with specialized hemispheres. If you get into it very far, there's a cleft in the brain, front to back, it also compartmentalizes those hemispheres more. And so, so what I, my point of view from personal experience and interpretation of that experience is that I'm running on a four cylinder paradox engine. OK. Currently, previously, I was probably running on a two cylinder paradox engine. And the cylinders of that, I would kind of throw into a Briggs-Meyer's context of thinking, intuition, sensing, feeling. It's like there's specialized sub brains that we're working from that help us navigate and survive in the world from. I mean, somehow, through evolutionary biology, we've, our system has evolved to survive in the world. And there's these different modes of survival that are, are apparently have been discovered by evolution and is reflected in our interpretation and personality theory of what's really a pretty complex mess in our heads. That, you know, to say that it's plain cut this way is asking too much. One way. I mean, for me, I started out, you know, in hindsight, being mostly running on an introverted, which is prefrontal cortex system, for as I know, thinking intuition, most dominant intuition, probably system. So and dominant intuitions kind of on the opposite side of the hardware that's processing body sense and, and some of the language stuff from my understanding of generalizations of cognitive, neurotypical cognitive architecture. So that's where I'm coming from, just based on my being a controls engineer by training and, and trying to understand how, how, how a self tuning control system can be set up and, and how we can be evolved into that. And plus I played around with some tricks to move between dominance patterns. When I was around 30, I played around with some Kundalini breathing tricks that would shift hemispherical dominance. And I found that I could and it sounded bogus to me because I'm not into that at all. But I found like, I could switch between more of the right dominant, which was probably my normal pattern to more of a left dominant by using their tricks and tried it out, climbing the map, local mountain peak for my 31st birthday that I'd never dared do it before. And, and I finally figured out the reason I couldn't stand it is because my visual system was throwing these images of me falling as I tried to go up precarious trails and, and, and, you know, watching other people even at heights, I would see them finally, some just interpret that as an evolved survival thing, or a maternal trait and then anything probably. And then by using the breathing techniques that I played around with to switch to more of a left hemisphere dominance, all that just went away. And all I was, I was just right there. Where's the next handheld? Where's the next foothold going up without any of that flashing into my consciousness? And the idea that I could move my consciousness around in the hardware, right, probably manipulating blood flow or attention. Yes. Yes. Was anyway, it was, it made me have a different point of view of what I was and what they find me because it's right, like I was just one thing based on my natural consciousness, but there's all sorts of possibilities, depending on where I was at in my head at the time, basically. Right. So, and, which makes sense. And just want to hit the ball back and say it makes perfect sense also because the modulatory nature is also based in electromagnetic principle as well. So it makes sense that neurologically speaking, we could be talking about oxygen or or or glucose or blood. We could be talking about these types of things. And even more fundamentally, even more layer zero, let's say, is energy or electromagnetism and feeling neural neurologically speaking, the feeling one's ability to shift between something that's tremendously logical or ordered patterned and something that is absolutely not that whatsoever and is has a no form at all, has a no logic is totally intuitive, could be primal. There's many and there's many ways that those two things interplay and to get really good at all of that and modulating between that. Can you, you know, modulating into a sense of self and other and then modulating out of a sense of self and other into one consciousness? So, yeah, there's a this is this is really fundamental. It's crucial. Yes. I found that I played around with that. Like I took a standardized job service type dexterity test during this time I was playing around with that was 30, 31, roughly. And when I was at 15, I'd had to take the exact same test, moving washers on pegs and I got 6th percentile when I was 15, totally introverted, totally not connected to my body. But then at that point, I was doing this over again. I was playing around with this and I decided I was going to become my hands for this test. And so I just put all of my attention into my hands while I performed a test and I came in with like 96 percentile on dexterity at that point, just by becoming my hands for the dexterity test. So really convinced me that we can change what's considered to be fixed traits or not so fixed, very dynamic, actually. The thing I also found that I could put my attention by playing around with the left, right dominance, I could put myself in the middle just by intentionality with my intention system. And then just intuitively felt like somewhere in the center should be the best play. I mean, it felt felt like it was a good place to be. It was just sort of centered between those two possibilities. Exactly. That was the most spacious. Exactly. And so I played around with that. It took effort. I sort of didn't follow through forever on that. I sort of worked towards it, but about 20 years later, I was trying to understand some developmental things that come about in people and get locked in an early childhood, things to do with attachment system and shame and probably insecure attachment style and the frame of John Bolby. Anyway, so I said, well, shame's just a word. I want to go into shame. I want to feel viscerally and what is this thing that people are talking about, which is it feels like suicide actually. Anyway, please continue going there, if you wish. Well, all I know is I learned to be careful what you asked for. Anyway, a couple of days after I did that in a safe container, there was an online group that I was involved in at the time that was listening to the universe in a single atom on the audiobook while it was working, which the universe in a single atom seems like a pretty good play on paradox, actually. Yeah. Booked by the Dalai Lama. I just had this sudden bang, one cycle. I mean, from my control, from my engineering training, I would say it was an instantaneous shift to a different stable harmonic in the system. However, the over consciousness fits together with the body, which I don't claim to have that figured out totally to the bottom. But it happened. I mean, so now I've got this thing that I don't believe and I've got to deal with because part of it felt like a connecting which crossed the brain as a connecting, but it felt like a non-local connecting, like reconnecting with source is something is this light cloud kind of. Yes, yes. It also felt like I was completing a conceptual structure that that all of a sudden there had been this discomfort or this disease that I'd been living with, and all of a sudden that was gone. It's like, all of a sudden, the socially conveyed model that I had of the world and how things worked got reassembled into something that made sense to me, finally. And there wasn't any conceptual distress anymore. Right. Which I'd come in the process of listening to the Dalai Lama stuff, mostly. But anyway, and so that made me feel like I was suddenly manic. It was pretty intense. And it took me a few months to sort. I mean, two months of it was really intense, like emotionally, like I went from thinking an intuitive dominant into a more extroverted, of a suddenly extroverted on the Briggs Meyers test if I did one or before I'd been introverted. And I was really body, sense aware and emotionally off the charts from my history. And so over a period of a couple of months, I figured out how to tame that and control it and surf it sort of. And yes, yes. Since that time, I sort of weave in and out of that introverted space, depending on what's going on in my life today. Right. But it got to be really interesting what is consciousness? What does this fit together? It's like, yeah, what's going on here? Right. That's the thread to pull. And it also was there was a materialist explanation of hemispheres connecting, but it was also this thing that people talk about in religion and spirituality of of reconnecting with source, which so I could have my materials to explanation, which for me is probably more comfortable. But it also had the other property, too, which is one thing that got me kind of paying attention to paradox early on in that going into that mode. That makes sense. Yes. I would like to ask about if you feel like the nature of shame is very directly at the root intertwined with the nature of self. Yeah, I've actually went through a journey. I've got a whole, I probably got two feet of shelf of books on shame, the immediate feeling was in that experience with shame is the root of all suffering and evil in the world. But there's actually a centeredness between there. And I mean, so after a journey through understanding how shame is so it's a part of those experiences and I found out from talking to other people is a really narcissistic surge of feet anyway. One friend called the stink of narcissism that comes with those expert shifts like that. And and so there's a so there's a part of shame that keeps us grounded that were imperfect works in progress. Yeah, that's actually beneficial and grounding and helpful. And there's the there's another kind of shame that's me from an evolutionary point of view. This is an inhibitory drive. That makes us conform to the social environment we're born into. And there's inherent cultural flaws in every system that are a problem. And the obvious one that's pretty common all over between all religions is just this maldominance of this narrative that skews society to a certain masculine bias that's really not telling us any facts. And I think that's one of the main factors at this point. The source of a lot of our cultural problems, but Anyway, there's so I have a from a system dynamics point of view from my training. If you look at the evolution of life on the planet, there's survival of the fittest evolution by selection, which is a slow adaptation that requires most of the way to extinction events to realign and discover how to survive in a given local environment. And it has a tendency to just go extinct. And so and that's where you find a lot of insects, microbes, but as and even the lizard brain stuff, you know, it got to an unstable point in dinosaurs that they just want to extinct. And the mammals that replace them are a lot better at adapting in one. So there's genetics has evolved so that we can survive in a variety of environments that we adapt to in our early childhood to discover those. And if you go down the mammalian, even reptilian cycle that plays out there, too. So so there's adaptation in the life cycle of the individual in the early early phases of that development, adapt to the local environment and then they're kind of locked in, which is the problem with some of the personality, what gets classified as personality disorders, but we're actually good adaptation to a bad environment. Okay, you're born into a dangerous environment. You're not supposed to feel safe in that environment. Unfortunately, it's really not a happy life, but it is a survival life. I like to use cats for proxy rather than talk about people so much because it's more politically correct to talk about feral cats and how they're adapted to survive and be afraid of, I mean, they're always on edge. They're always looking for danger or you've got the cat that was born in the house. It's always safe. Everything's wonderful. There's no danger. They're just all pervs and fun. And and there's that possibility for adaptations in the genetics of cats, obviously. And I'm arguing humans, most of them, most mammals have that adaptation, possibly built into them. And so rather than saying there's personality disorders in humans, there's actually just normal adaptation to the environment they were born into. Right. And then beyond that, we have our language and memes and memetics are a way to adapt within a mature life cycle. It's, you know, our conditioning was tied in pretty tightly in early childhood, but we can still adapt to new environments through through learning and cultural transmission with language and whatever other systems we have for higher functions. So I see that there's these different there's just been this evolution of adaptability that's been playing out and there's not enough respect for it in society. And it's all just a work in progress. And it's not doing us any good to demonize other social orders that we don't understand. It's more a matter of being able to take different points of view based on where people are coming from and being able to sort it out in a constructive, healthy manner, which requires being able to sit in the metal between the two posing points of view. I mean, all you have to do is look at the U.S. Congress to figure out the system is broken and taking people down to lizard brain keeps it that way. Yes. We need higher cognitive functions to actually sort out the problems. Right, we've created for ourselves. Yes. Be able to adapt to a really rapidly changing environment. Right, makes sense. Of course. It's great hearing you weave the the cosmological evolutionary and biological into the neurological and spiritual and deconstructive conditioning side of things. And really resonant. And. Yes, very simply put. All always has been and always will be that source light cloud, as you describe, and that's part of the game of the paradox that well, how can it be that and how can I still feel a sense of self and separation and location? Why do I still feel location? A sense of identity that's separate from that source and whatnot. And so there's that conversation that we can go and play on. And then there's another conversation that I feel like we can play on, which is the formation and this might actually be more. It might be better to start here and then we'll get there, which is what else is really at the root along with shame? Or what does shame, let's say, evolve into that is more easily. Acknowledgeable, let's say, to start pulling on the thread into one's subconscious. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't really get to the point on that very well. So from a dynamic's point of view, the neocortex, I think I feel like we're so adaptive, adaptable at this point that the system is inherently unstable and that we need intergenerational transfer of culture to keep the system stable. And that shame is what enforces that. And it's a survival thing and it's important. It has its place in the system for intergenerational transfer of content that we need to learn. OK, so it has its place. They have a picture that I drew for presentation one time that looks like a mushroom cloud. And if an atomic explosion goes off, there's a bother to create creation. And then there's a column that raises vertically, cylindrically. And that's how I see the individuation path going as constrained by the cultural environment. And it it's important because without that, I would say people become psych. There's a percentage of the population where that's the case. And those are the people we classify as psychopaths or sociopaths because they don't have that inhibition. It doesn't give them the ability to resonate with others empathically. And they just it's just a game. It's all just a game. There's no they don't feel that it feels like you're going to die if you don't conform or they can do whatever they want. And they and they rise to the top of our culture because they they can play the current culture is pretty much focused on and ran type survival of the fittest is glory. Right. One of you. Right. And they can do it shamelessly. They can do it without worrying about hurting other people. Right. I feel like what I experienced is that shame system that change in topology took the shame part offline by going into it and dying to the being totally transparent, nothing to worry about that way anymore. Caused that system to shut down, caused all four cylinders to integrate correctly without this hierarchical enforcement of conformity playing anymore. And so. And that's the top of the mushroom cloud, basically this. It's a very creative space. It's what we need for solving problems. It's what we need for. Be able to hold different points of view in place without. Having to choose between them. See that. See that again. Well, which part? So that so that the the sudden onset that I experienced, I mean, there's different versions of this that can be slower, sudden, but the sudden version. I feel like it was that system dropping out. I mean, I wanted to head on right dropped out. And there was this sudden shift to another topology of consciousness that was integrating the four of the four. More horizontal aspects of interpreting reality and surviving in the world in that. That paradox engine point of view. So I was running on all four cylinders and and that inhibitory. There's a sounding farfetched point of view that that some people have come across point two, and that's the idea of a toroidal universe. And I would say, maybe a toroidal consciousness that can only be integrating so much at once. And that if it's integrating hierarchically, so that we're conforming, it's integrating the autonomic nervous system inhibitory stuff that's associated with shame that can only pull in part of the this horizontal plane that I'm just that's the four cylinders. And so it's like it just flipped an axis and the shame went away. And right, all four we're integrating that is why suddenly experiencing my body sense and my emotions so tightly, because those have been what young ins would put in shadow. Exactly. Yes, I'm not in shadow. And it's just instantly flipped an axis and the other stuff shut down. So now I'm a functional psychopath because I don't feel shame anymore. It's like the mushroom cloud going horizontal now because it reached a certain level in the confinement. I'm pretty good on fluid mechanics, but I still don't claim to understand the mushroom cloud all the way to the bottom. But it happens, you know, you're just confining column that rises, it's got the energy to rise and it can find column up to a point and then it just sort of spreads out and right. And it's this it's this inhibitory shame that's confining space to socialize us up to a point where we're socialized properly to conform in the environment we're in, then we're cut loose to do our thing creatively and explore possibilities and and help society find a better way, maybe. Interesting. Anyway, it's a work in progress, but it's my interpretation of what makes sense to me the best in the system. I really enjoy that and it feels good. Now, there are a couple things here. One of them is I would like to do a definition of shame and it looks like the first one when you search for it online is very powerful. A painful feeling of humiliation or distress caused by the consciousness of wrong or foolish behavior. So would you first would you I have a favorite one. Yes, please. It's mathematical. So there's a book that was a joint project between Carl Rogers and Barry Stevens. So you've got the feminine Barry's machine wrote alternating sections with Carl Rogers to try and explain his point of view in a more feminine interpretation, which was a really good book. And then there she has a definition. It's shame is the difference between how I perceive myself to be and how I perceive society expects me to be very concise. And pretty much nails it on the head to me. It's just it's a perception of it's just it's like what it feels like to not conform to the expectations that we feel like society expresses expects from us. And it's totally subjective. It's totally from our point of view. It's not like it's necessarily actually what society expects from us. But it's how we perceive it how it's been right how it's been transferred to us as an expectation from those around us and mostly unspoken. A lot of us body language, right. It's not like just rules written down in a book somewhere. Your society doesn't even follow those. It's interesting because the way that you just described it is very powerful. And I love that. And then the first definition that seemed to pull up seem to have a deep resonance with the word repentance. So I mean, that's one thing the Catholic Church gets right. My opinion is they're confessional. Yes. Yes. They get that right. Right. Right. Because we could say that the core thing that we're talking about, which is let's say union with this source like cloud is accessed through this style of inner work. So repentance or in this definition, the going inward into the most painful emotions that one carries perhaps like rocks within oneself are some of the greatest ways, especially when some of those rocks have to do with our own immoral behavior. That's one of the best ways to transmute those rocks into the very air that they are made of. And then feel expansion and feel healing and feel space and love. And that seems to be the whole game that's being played. So that is a very powerful root. And then I like what you said too, because if I'm creating any sense of separation, I'm automatically interested in how I'm being seen or perceived. Because I'm localizing myself. I'm creating an illusion of a separate other. And then I'm concerned about the way that they're perceiving me. And then that whole that is at the root that explodes into so many other perceptions of shame and lack and all different kinds of concerns and worries and anxieties and depressions and all this type of stuff. Yeah, that's powerful. There's another aspect to this that I was especially obvious to me when I had that sudden shift. Because of the instability and the individual, we need feedback. We need validation. I mean, there's controls and you know, obviously like feedback, feed forward and feedback are opposites that play against each other in this paradox space. And feed forward is the genetics. A lot of it and feedback is how we learn from our mistakes and adapt. But we talk about a lot of those early problems that have to do with shame come from invalidation is a very literal form of trauma. It doesn't show bruises, but just invalidating your worth as a person, your basic instincts to behave a certain way. There's all sorts of ways that we can be invalidated that cause a kind of trauma. And that's what I mean, aside from physical trauma and being obvious and causing problems, I don't think anybody escapes that kind of invalidation trauma, yes, even in the best of circumstances. Right. Yeah, and that's so good. One of my close friends, Sonia, recently said, what would it look like this is with teaching how to interact with, let's say close family, something like what would it look like if you weren't constantly in an argument with who I am? Yeah. So there's always some sort of a so much invalidation trauma happening in that regard, like not basically not allowing to be what is. The natural of what is, yeah, not allowing that being in an argument with it. Yeah. And Eckhart totally gets into stuff like that, I think in his books and stuff. And I've come across quite a few people who've got benefit from his version of that. Yeah, I could probably recommend him even though I haven't personally got into it that deep. He has this model of a pain body and anyway, I know quite a few people who've been helped by his books as far as an external reference. Right. So there's an aspect of paradox and you touched on it in the individual versus collective, the unity versus individual separation. It's one of my key brought to my attention in a book from a EKG guy called the focal non-focal attention system. Well, he doesn't he calls it open focus versus focal anyway. So which is part of how there's where we put our attention, which was really focal attention versus the background that occurs. Yes. So that's one place I really got into paradox. Right. That's a very powerful entry point. It's also the perfect one for the localized, non-localized, which is such a that's such a perfect one for waking up. It's such a good one. Yeah, I have a map that I've created around the Taoist point of view that basically it's yin and yang and all the serial versus parallel modes and the space in between that and basically it's the space where I feel consciousness exists in different degrees parallel dominant versus serial dominant in a space in between. Explain parallel versus serial dominant explain the map. Well, I mean part of what I've done a whole presentation on was parallel learning. I mean there's something in early childhood called parallel play where basically kids watch other people play and do the other kids play and imitate. It's aligned with imprinting and more of an animal domain, but a good example of it would be my oldest son when he was three. He was, he liked maze puzzles and he would just, I bought him a whole book of maze puzzles. He would just look at a maze and draw the answer. There was no trial and error. He just his visual cortex was solving it without any thought processes. It just presented it's a lot of people would call it intuition, but it's really a parallel processing thing that presents the results all at once. There's no paper trail on it. We get into that in AI systems, right? And it's also, it's just how the visual cortex works. So everything's massively parallel. The same son when he got to algebra had problems because they could present a problem to him and he could write the answer, but he couldn't show any steps in between. So he had to learn how to go through the steps because they marked it wrong when they just presented the answer, but of course algebra is all about proofs. It's got to be logical, linear. Is that serial? That's parallel. Well, all the steps in between are serial. Yeah. There's also an equivalence between serial or between parallel and rotation. I mean, I got into that in mind ventilation as a undergrad working with one professor I worked for, wanted me to prove something. Anyway, there was a way you could actually remap mind ventilation systems by using rotational elements together with translational elements and it's all separated kind of neatly. It's kind of weird anyway. Just in mechanical engineering, there's lots of translation versus rotation stuff to deal with. Led me to the idea that there's a basic paradox in the universe from the get go of rotation versus translation and then consciousness as well. Let's call it masculine feminine, you can call it parallel or versus serial. I mean, we talk about, I mean, the Buddhists are into causality big time, which is linear causal stuff. But there's another kind of causality that's parallel like just because you see a whole bunch of turtles popping out of the ground on the beach someplace, doesn't mean it's not linearly causal but massively parallel type. All the eggs that were laid at once are hatching at once. So just there's a different kind of causality and we're getting lots of, I mean, Turing machines are based on linear processes but the graphic stuff they're coming out with is massively parallel and presents something that's complementary. I mean, there's different words that fit together with paradox. Complementarity is one of them. It takes both sides to make a hole in the complementary way, just wave particle duality. The idea that you can have something that depending on how you look at it comes through as a particle versus it comes through as a wave it can be both depending on your point of view. That's a paradox, isn't it? It gets described as complementarity. It's probably a local versus non-focal kind of paradox. So one of the ways to look at this, then for those listening on audio, I would recommend also checking out the video version where this is embedded. So is that the complementality? Complementarity. Yes, complementarity. The simultaneity, the both and neither, all of that is the middle or is the whole thing. And then one of the best ways to describe the indescribable is through this paradoxical viewing of it. So paradox and ineffable are probably tightly related. Yes. There's another word that comes up. And there's another aspect to this as to with Godel's incompleteness there, which is decidability. And the part there's a boundary between the computable and the rest of the universe. I mean, whenever we try and objectify everything, there's a limit that what can be objectified and what can be computed by a terrain machine. And there's a territory to explore in that direction probably falls under the word oracles. Continue. And really, that's where I see consciousness existing. It's like what it feels like to be in superposition. Uncollapsed way for what you've decided something. Consciousness in the system to me as a controls engineer is where we handle the indescribable. And so that's why I'm on same wavelength as Roger Penrose when I say it's got to be a quantum process involved in all of this when it comes to consciousness. And I basically and within the spectrum of consciousness, I see masculine consciousness being a serially dominated mix of the two's parallel and it's more deterministic, but it's still got to have that tension with the background and feminine is more holistically oriented, but it's still got to have that objective center that's provided by the masculine side. So just saying we're playing with a spectrum of consciousness across the space that's one side closer to the parallel aspects of it and one side closer to the linear serial aspects of it all. Right. Right. And the nice thing about being very malleable in one's modulatory ability is to not box oneself into category and therefore to be boxless and to be able to navigate into what can be more parallel or more serial and call upon frequencies of those domains as is in flow. The one book I got into by Les Femhe on the open focus friend was basically he was working as a consultant to the Dallas Cowboys trying to train their quarterbacks how to play that game fast. I claimed it was teachable that you could maybe as a quarterback has to take in the whole big picture open focus mode and see the whole picture lock in on the receiver and then only see the receiver and exclude everything else. So in that case just in a matter of seconds hopefully, fractions of a second even, switch modes from open parallel massively parallel to tightly focused on objective mode. Right. Okay. That's great that you bring a sport. It's one of the best analogies it feels like and so relatable to so many. It is really the simultaneity of taking in the whole while also being able to focalize on the specific thing that needs to happen at that time. It's really beautiful. It's like also it's very relatable even if one didn't necessarily go really hard in playing sports in one's life. So many people are fans of sport. So therefore when you're a fan of sport you can also see this happening where you're taking in the whole of the field or the court or both teams and etc. And then at the same time the field and then at the same time you're honed in on where is the ball right now? Who is around the ball? Where is the ball moving? And that's one of the best. Yeah, it's a really good analogy. Yeah. One of the things that he brings up in that book is he says from an evolutionary point of view it's the lioness on the hat taking in a herd of gazelles or whatever and then having to lock in on one specific target and take it down and being able to focus on one is important for survival. But also it's tied in with the sympathetic nervous system for the attack mode. And so by being in focal mode a lot we're also in sympathetic activation. I mean I don't know how everybody relates to that term but in the autonomic nervous system there's a sympathetic and a parasympathetic axis of that and the sympathetic axis is what's getting us in trouble in our culture health-wise and physiological health-wise and it's because anything that uses focal attention is sort of brings along with it some level of activation which is partly just looking at a screen in front of you was your focal attention system takes you there to some it totally does it totally does and which brings us to another word for paradox which is a catch 22 or whoever's familiar with movie versions of paradox. Oh man. If you look at linear this is interesting we could we could even say that the the most seemingly distorted part of the perfection is the over focalization which is also the most most beautiful part of it at the same time. Well if you talk about getting out on a vista and being in awe and wonder at the big picture that's sort of the antidote to it a little bit. Yeah really bringing you to your knees really bringing bringing you to your knees in awe of the beauty because it's both the most distorted like the veil of separation being the most the the very edge of the attractor of Maya and it being also the most beautiful aspect of creation is God totally forgetting itself in its evolution. Yeah it's going to mention it's part of the idea of paradox is that as soon as things become self-referential look like an object language the sentence all you have to do to create a paradox with language is to make it self-referential so we make the statement the sentence is untrue or the sentence is a lie the statement is a lie at the time it becomes self-referential it's really easy to create a paradox a logical paradox because if the statement is true it's false and if it's false it's true problem it doesn't take much to do it wants to become self-referential and and our consciousness is really self-referential I mean being aware of ourselves and what we're experiencing is a very self-referential process so it's not shouldn't be too surprising that it would be in that space of paradox right I mean and then paradox doesn't have to be two choices it can just it can be a whole spectrum of choices which is one thing that got me into this mess in the first place was trying to understand black and white thinking and how that can be versus being able to see the gray areas in between and being able to see the gray areas is being able to handle paradox basically right doesn't have to be black or why they can be all these other choices in between you even have colors so so it's what makes our reality so interesting and complicated mess hopefully fun it's unbelievably fun yeah yeah it's very indescribable ineffable paradoxical superpositioned it's very interesting because even the superposition it's almost uh yeah it's a way to say all of all of it all of it and none of it and that's kind of the end of it and then it's and then it feels really good it feels really good it should feel really good um because well one should feel very final one should feel very complete one should feel uh very empty of their own conditioning and empty of their own sense of self and empty of their own narrative and their own story they should feel more and more like a clear vessel and a clear channel for whatever reflectiveness the collective is seeking for their own healing and awakening and that it's a whole different existence that is uh harmonically chiming the body uh it's a whole different feeling um it's a really finding what was never lost yeah so there's a paradox and the interpretations of non-duality uh one being yeah being in the now idea but i would contrast that with a sense of detachment like there's also a meta observer detached point of view from the now that makes the good the bad and the ugly tolerable yeah because you're not i mean there's a space that's created in non-duality that is just a little bit removed from the intensity of it and it might take a while to get there through well anyway there there's two aspects to what gets thrown in there to me is one the idea and the mystical experience domain or non-dual domain right you could say that the it expresses itself in where there is an absolute transcendent spaciousness at the same time there is an absolute feeling of totally everything and yeah so but but one aspect of it it just gives some space to come up with new ideas i think it's a creative it's it's less tightly bounded by what's allowed and so you get all these divergent behaviors coming out yes tend to get them locked up sometimes and then there's a condition there's a conditioning that people bring to those experiences that comes up with all sorts of different points of view that are kind of all the same thing but i think i mean like if you look at the history of the Mormon religion where i grew up there was a column of light and god appeared before Joseph Smith and blessed him to be keeper of the priesthood and some things like that that conformed with his training up to that point in time his expectation there's an expectation component to it i guess based on prior conditioning and my expect what i brought to to the experience was radical agnosticism probably so that's still where i'm at pretty much with the paradox thing hasn't really changed whatever i was conditioned to before is still my condition right i think those those shifts changed so there's like the idea of qualia comes in for me i mean didn't really think about it too much until i got going just hanging out with Dave Chalmers and science of consciousness but i've come to the point where i view qualia as like a natural language encoded in their genetics and if you look at what smells good to me versus what smells good to a fly obviously they are like oppositely encoded the fly likes things decomposing smelling like shit and i don't and i'm repulsed by it and somehow in the genome there's probably encoding for that somehow it comes into play and so it's it's like our body in their genetic codes has this built in language that tells us how we're supposed to feel about things and and that basically all of our conscious experiences is just built with qualia but it's like how it's pixelated it's kind of my point of view on this and that's there might be a possibility to break that code we're probably in a Euler number space if i have my intuition about it but somehow or other we interpret our body interprets the world for us builds this reality maintains this reality in a hologram that's pixelated with qualia right and how that and so there's somehow there's a language there that i feel like we have some hope of understanding better the very least we could map that better the stuff i come across is pretty broad brush on mapping with it there's all sorts of different flavors of pain for instance or pleasure or color or what's the quality of feeling right about something i mean feeling like you know the right you're sure of yourself is gotta be some kind of a qualia mapping and i think there's a lot of unexplored territory in that direction sometimes i think about how to build conscious or synthetic consciousness and and conscious i mean i kind of see us as biological meat robots and we're being programmed by our conscious experience and if we're growing up in this dangerous environment and we're afraid of everything or fight or flight most of the time then that's all being encoded in our neurology to become subconscious and and we're navigating that with consciousness and solving the problems and after it becomes retained and it's just encoded in the neurology and reduced to subconscious processes doesn't require if it's computable it doesn't require consciousness anymore consciousness is where we're navigating it what's not computable determined clearly determined us to anyway yeah there's a certain qualia of relaxation yeah really that peace and relaxation space yeah really that sort of like vacuuming away right of self back into the void in the force and then whatever is left which can be some occasional fabrications of of self but then even that is more slightly subtly deconditioned and unwound and just greater and greater peace love space all of that like the ability to relax and not do anything and feel the absolute perfection that everything is is the most unrecognizable skill and like what is the quality of that what is the internal subjective experience of it because it really it feels like divinity it feels like crying because everything's so perfect and you're not doing anything so everything is automatically worthy and love and it's all this type of what are those emotions what are those feelings that are coming up and um and then yeah what how would we go about how would we go about mapping that and at the same time then having that urge of oh my bladder is full now and I was using the bathroom or now I'm thirsty and so now I'm going to go drink some water of hungry some nights of food and etc and how are we architecting out because this is another core thing about realization is that mind creates reality so whatever is leaving right here that is creating reality so if what is leaving is oriented around what is existing now we're basically talking about the past so only by talking about the highest ideal possible just as an example heaven on earth or whatever abundant prosperous civilization you want for children and grandchildren to revel in for millennia only by holding that in your heart in your gut in the deepest parts of you and being unmovable or unshakable from that can that actually manifest it's the only way it can manifest because otherwise the same trigger will come up about some sort of a political conversation and before you know it there'll be arguments and all this type of stuff so the only role you have is to constantly be immovable in heaven on earth and what does that feel like what does it feel like to know without a shadow of a doubt that that is what this is meant to do here yeah for me I think it's really important to be able to be at peace with where things are now both within ourselves and within the society we exist in and it takes a little bit of detachment to do that I think especially with society but I mean one argument I play around with is you know there's lots I mean the valley where I live has been the side of a multiple utopian experiments over it's since white men drove the indians out basically the setup there utopia is here and it hasn't played out well so far but there's that desire to come up with a better system and and in the current environment there's a really strong what I would call wonderful family syndrome where everything's got to be wonderful or it's just not worth it and and so your ideal is okay everything's wonderful nothing ever goes wrong and then I die is that really a wonderful life or what you really want to get drugged through the muck and overcome something and do something meaningful and then is that what's a wonderful life you know right a lot of people aspire to the idea that life should just be easy and wonderful utopia and ideal everything never crossed word and have cousins who grew up in an approximation to that and they have not fared well in life past their immediate house of origin because they weren't prepared for the real world very well and so there's one thing I get into is just how adaptive filtering works in our in our brains and obvious to me is that our brains are conditioned by a lot of us driven by expectations what we see is what we're expecting to see it's an anticipatory last filter and if we've grown up in a very safe environment like with the cats we have an expectation that that's what we're going to see and if we have grown up in a violent unsafe and house and that's what we expect to see and it's almost it's a self-fulfilling expectation we'll I mean it's it's like we there's almost a mind blindness to things that we aren't expecting to see because I mean there's a story I don't know if it's true or not of Captain Cook sailing into a harbor where there were aboriginals in Australia and they were just out there in their fishing boats with this big sailing ship coming into their harbor and they weren't even paying attention to it because they didn't have any context for it and at some point they saw a man on the deck and all of a sudden they realized oh here's a contact that's a person we got to get out of here this is big bad thing coming at us and so and I think with what we're doing with AI these days it's easier to understand how that works because if you've got an AI that's programmed with a certain database then it's going to find things that fit in that database and if it's outside that it's not going to see that then our brains work that way more than we would like to acknowledge and it's definitely trying to tease the most out of a noisy signal by looking for X but you know based on its past history anticipating what it's going to find and then confirming that when it's with the least amount of data to confirm it but it gets us in trouble some people get in trouble because they're just expecting the worst from everybody and so they'll interpret a neutral situation to be a bad situation and other people will see the neutral situation and see it to be good and they'll get taken to the cleaners by broadsters so what you said earlier is really powerful which is that who is to say that the experience of taking birth into an abundant and prosperous civilization of only positive qualia is a better feeling of infinity than a feeling of infinity that gets extremely contracted in trauma and then liberates itself from the illusion or does not and just continues into a negative qualia for its experience and that's a very powerful question and it's also part of the simplicity of things like the prismatic refraction of light or the color palette that yeah that there's no compartmentalization of the best and then the guiding of it towards what is quote best and yet at the same time there there is the recognition that there was a tremendous trauma that this collective has been through and that if one would like to entertain some story or idea or concept or narrative about infinity in its exploration it could very much be that this is one of the the deepest darkest traumatic experiences it's gone through with forgetting itself and then waking back up to remember itself and to build a prosperous playground for itself here on earth for millennia to come and that's some funny ass narrative that we tell ourselves and yeah and it's up to whatever you feel really it's really up to whatever you feel if you feel like you want to promulgate continuous transgenerational traumas under the excitement of of creating more suffering to then create greater liberation or not go for it if you if you want to end that if you want to create abundance where children are born into abundant water food and energy infrastructures that enable them to and be taught and still be taught let's say hypothetically still be taught about suffering and still be taught about a sense of self and still be taught about shame and about these core rude emotion that they don't necessarily get as contractive and experienced with if if that if that fancies you then perhaps that's what fancies you and you want to build something like that where they can play more where you can play more freely continually so it's all it's all a very interesting color palette and explosion of of whatever you say goes there's nobody else here but you whatever you say goes bam yeah well I don't think we're in danger of paradise descending upon us anytime soon so I don't spend a lot on that one but there's plenty to work with reminding people of that now you got lots yeah would you so just if you want to complain about the world well that's just an opportunity go for it you know I don't think we're out of opportunities anytime soon and one thing I've noticed in my lifetime is when I was young there was lots of just survival from material needs point of view played into the equation and and there wasn't helicopter paradigm and stuff like that going on and you know in a couple generations that whole picture is like kids get everything handed to them and yet they're stressed it's like there's almost this balancing act between material needs versus mental emotional needs as the material needs become just handed to people it's like it ramps up the emotional trauma for some reason there makes people more insecure makes life less meaningful and I think that's probably a trauma in itself too and a lot of people are having a crisis of what makes life worth living and when you're just fighting to meet your basic needs you don't have to worry about that it's like my buddy Gino says that's a first world problem versus a third world problem you know there's some reality to that yes and so but there's still problems at every level it seems likely to evolve and to take on new forms I don't know I mean from my point of view I see pretty much a never-ending challenge just from the environment and dealing with planetary issues that we've got to deal with if not that then maybe ways to move off the planet and do things off the planet and the challenges that we'll provide and there's always plenty of chaos to be interjected in the physical system so there will always be that to deal with navigate so right I'm not worried about running other things to deal with on the negative side and I like how this also circles us too the more that we can hold the whole at the same time as enjoy the focal the non-focal at the same time as focal yeah it really just brings so much more just flowfulness and peace love and greater clarity in what is actually going on and and then enable us equip us better to to understand what's going on and then and then help shepherd whatever we want if we want more abundance or however we see things however we want I mean there's plenty of challenge to be facing just shifting to balancing out masculine versus feminine in our environment right that's many generation project I assume right is this one of there's a going on for a lot of generations up to now and it's still not dealt with well there's such a good there's such a good access point it feels like for the male bodies to to learn the feminine there's there's a really good access point that it feels like is in the root the root chakra if you will and it's something that I feel like I'll be making more content about but that when the male also learns when the male body also learns how to let go of the contracted energy around its own root it can then learn how to close that loop on itself that torus loop when this opens up it can more easily close that torus try to loop and then and then also understand what it's like to be the receptive which is the feminine female body if you will and receive and receive rather than contract and close but like learn how to receive um yeah there's there's that and then it shows up in such simple ways also just those that will won't even receive a the struggle to receive even a simple gift of some sort very simple hey you want to just relax a bit honey while I go and make some tea or whatever it is like just no I'll do it myself yeah but a lot of people have trouble with uh trouble with receiving trouble receiving us learning that is an art yeah I work in progress lots of things are working progress yeah I mean that's sort of my worldview who's god's got to be a work in progress if you want to objectify god somehow which is dangerous territory it's more like the whole thing's a creative process and it's all a work in progress yeah the ultimate painter forever painting yeah there's a lot of just a lot of great uh topics that we covered and I really really really enjoyed the conversation I love hearing that and I feel like there's so much to still play on together which is really exciting again I'm really grateful for Ori pointing this out I knew as soon as he pointed it out that I was excited about it because it's it's very rare that that he does and then when he does I know that it's important and more and more of the conversations that I have on the show are of this caliber which is really exciting and it also leads to what I feel like is more and more um osmosis between uh whatever lattices and energies are happening here and then that can serve yeah better and it's just really exciting Jeff I really appreciate you and I appreciate the the worldview that you that you have and and I look forward to potentially continued conversations yeah I do too I think what you're describing there is some parallel processes we don't have very good language for it yet I think we're totally unappreciated definitely from the feminine side yeah yeah yes yes that's so good so Jeff what would be the best place for people to check out more of you hmm that's a hard question because there aren't too many but I've done presentations at different meetings that I've got a little bit of available online not a lot I could put more pretty easily I've got a web address at paradigmsofcreativity.com that there's a little bit up on like like I have some presentations that I could put links up if I figure out how to do it a little bit tech challenge on some of the web stuff but anyway so we'll have we'll we'll maybe have some of this in the description for people to go and check out yeah yeah they could put up some more stuff or put some links on yeah and perhaps that's also something that we can yeah help is give the content up and help with that yeah it's supposed to be working on a writing project it isn't very far into it yet I wanted to do a book project around like a self users guide for conscious robots and maybe at some point I'll get ambitious on that better than I have so far basically write a substrate independent users manual for conscious agents that brings in some of the essential hardware for survival in a evolutionary environment environment survival the fittest environment it might be universal across either biological or non-biological ways that that could be implemented but interesting anyway just a way to play around with some of this stuff something it would be a work in progress ideally you can put in additional updates and sections as they become more well defined right like some of the stuff we've worked with it in an industrial environment where there's constant updates being issued and what's the best way to address a certain problem yeah right someday right well it feels like that's coming through coming through as a mycelium network that's good that's coming through just great yeah and that will help us heal yeah so excellent and then also thank you everybody also for tuning in very grateful that you joined us and would love to hear from you in the comments below also so drop us a comment with how you felt what resonated what didn't that kind of stuff why subscribe to the channel if you haven't yet like the video if you enjoyed it also share it with people that you feel like this would resonate with if you would like to and do check out all jeff's links also check out our links the most exciting projects are available on the websites below especially home dow which is helping us make the shift into the higher awareness communities and having the basic needed needs infrastructures be met across earth and that's it i'm really looking forward to continued play together jeff you too excellent we've got more we could cover same yeah yeah let's all end the recording and then we'll uh we'll stay in here from for a little bit longer all right bye everyone