 Good morning and welcome to the first meeting of 2024 of the Economy and Fair Work Committee. Our first item of business is the final evidence session of an inquiry into a just transition for the north-east in Moray. I welcome Richard Lochhead, Minister for Small Business, Innovation, Tourism and Trade, who is joined by Katrina Lange, Deputy Director for Climate Change with the Scottish Government. If members and witnesses can keep their questions and answers as concise as possible, that would be helpful this morning. I now invite the minister to make a short opening statement. Thank you very much, convener, and good morning to the committee. I also want to begin by thanking you for the opportunity to speak to the committee today. I should say that your inquiry into the just transition fund for north-east Scotland and Moray comes at a really good time from my own perspective, because I'm very keen this year to reflect on the funds first in two or three years, and also on our approach to wider just transition, which of course is continuing to evolve. It's a living-breathing concept. There's no blueprint for this. No country's done it before, so I'm very keen to have your feedback today and I also look forward to the outcomes of your inquiry. Clearly at the heart of the Government's desire for a just transition in Scotland is that we don't want to repeat any of the past mistakes from Scotland's past. We all are aware that we're continuing to feel the impact of the rapid decline that was inflicted in many of our heavy industries, particularly 1980s, for instance the closure of the coal mines, which is obviously the example that's often cited as part of this debate. For me, a just transition is about ensuring the positive impacts of reaching net zero are felt right across our economy and the whole of society, bringing tangible benefits to all of our industries, especially with regard to jobs and skills, affordability and living standards. Supporting positive outcomes for communities and places and workers and businesses is absolutely fundamental to the just transition approach. Change, of course, is always challenging, but the north-east and Murray has a crucial role to play in our transition to a greener future. We have to harness the areas of skills, talents and expertise to support the build-out of our low-carbon technologies and tackle the existing issues of fuel poverty and energy security, as well as safeguarding a future for the many oil and gas workers and offshore workers that we have, particularly in that region of Scotland. We have, of course, already undertaken a lot of work to create new jobs in the offshore wind sector, in particular, and there's no doubt that the opportunities provided by Scotland's resources are vast and that this region of Scotland that we're talking about today in particular is very well placed to take advantage of that. There are exciting projects already underway in the region, and our just transition fund in the north-east and Murray has committed £500 million of investment over 10 years. That, of course, is to recognise the unique circumstances of the transition of our oil and gas sector and its particular concentration in the north-east. We do have an urgent responsibility to a just transition that protects opportunities for workers and communities, as well as supporting and underpinning the region's economy. Despite the relatively early stages of the fund, we've already allocated £75 million in funding. That's supported around 24 projects so far, as well as a range of other activities to support also commercial investment through the Scottish National Investment Bank going forward, as well. Our funding support is helping finance organisations, businesses, communities and individuals in transition, creating jobs in low-carbon industries and supporting the provision of skills in the region, as well. The First Just Transition Commission stressed the importance of a planned and managed transition to net zero. That's why we have committed to delivering just transition plans for sectors, regions and individual sites in some cases. Good planning is critical to provide certainty for these communities, businesses and workers about the changes that are going to happen and that are already underway. Accordingly, we have put engagement and co-design at the core of our planning and policy to make sure that the people who will be impacted by the transition have their say. Of course, that's our key principle of the just transition. Without societal buy-in, it will be impossible for us to reach net zero in a fair way. We are making lots of progress, there's lots of lessons to learn, there's lots more to do in the future, obviously. As I said before, at the beginning there's no blueprint for this. Scotland is attracting international attention for the way in which we're approaching a just transition in Scotland, but we have to reflect on the first couple of years of the fund, in particular, as well as the overall approach. Therefore, I'm very keen to have your thoughts. I obviously do my best to answer your questions today and get back to you with anything that I'm unable to furnish you with at this meeting by looking forward to the exchange in today's session. I'll start with a question about the meaning of a just transition. The witnesses to this inquiry have given a number of definitions of what a just transition is. We went up to Aberdeen to take evidence. Aberdeen City Council said that there was some confusion in government as to what the concept of a just transition means, which leads to funding programmes where the intent isn't clear. A lot of the discussion was around the difference between a just transition and an energy transition. Do you feel that there needs to be a greater definition? You said at the start that it's a living, breathing concept, so it's the balance between flexibility and maybe the need to change and adapt, but also clarity so that everybody knows what they're working towards. Do you think there needs to be more work in that area when it comes to defining what it means for a north-east model? It's a good question, of course. It's a question I hear often. Scotland's in the position where the just transition principles are, of course, reflected in the Climate Change Act. I explain to people when I meet them in as straightforward a way as I can in terms of how I define the just transition as a way in which ensuring the transition to net zero is managed and planned and the measures that we take and policies that we implement to go towards net zero in a fair way that doesn't leave people behind is done in a way in which it's co-designed with the people most affected. That's clearly got at the heart of it, creating good green jobs for people in Scotland, particularly those in sectors that are most impacted, transitioning away from fossil fuels into low-carbon technologies. Most people I speak to in organisations, including Aberdeen City Council, have accepted that when I've met them in the past and I think it's a broad agreement about the aims and general principles of the just transition. Clearly, there is always a debate because it can mean all things to all people. It's not just about jobs, jobs at the heart of it, but it's also about using the economic transformation that we're going through in the coming decades between now and 2045. It's a massive window of opportunity to fix things in our society and our economy that we don't think are right and we think are unfair, so fuel poverty, for instance, and many other economic issues. It's a window of opportunity, and as we go through that economic transformation, we've got an opportunity to fix some of those things in our society. I suppose that the link to that question is the associated issue of how do you measure the just transition. You talked about the need for it to be planned and managed. I think it's Professor Paul Dooloo, when he spoke to us, said that the journey, the destination is clear, but the journey is not. We know what the outcomes are meant to be, but we're lacking detail of how we get there. We also took evidence from the just transition lab, and they've done quite a bit of work on how you could measure it and what kind of indicators you would use. Do you understand that they're having some discussions with the Scottish Government? I know that we're looking at a longer-term plan, but should we have stage in, measurement, or at least attempt—not the difficult thing to measure, but should we at least attempt to measure it? The moment it feels it's happening in a bit of a vacuum. How do we know in five years' time if we're on the right track or 10 years' time when we're meant to achieve this? What work has the Government done in this area? I agree with a lot of the sentiment that's been expressed by the committee on this issue. I've been in Parliament since 1999, and many people around the table have been in Parliament for some time, so you're aware as much as I am of how quickly, how fast the agenda has changed and how the issues of the just transition and net zero have rocketed to the top of the agenda in the last few years. Society of the World is changing so fast, and the debate over net zero, as we can see in the daily news, is now at the forefront. We have to measure better what we're achieving with the just transition policy in Scotland to accept that. In terms of the fund, for instance, the first couple of years have been just getting it off the ground and going. If you go to North East Scotland, for instance, there is a remarkable transformation under way. Amazing things happening. I'm lucky, as Minister, I get to visit a lot of the places and meet the people involved. It is hugely inspirational what's happening just now in North East Scotland and other parts of the country, but in terms of the fund, the many, many different projects. It's not just the just transition fund, there's various other funds and initiatives under way that you'll all be aware of in North East Scotland from your inquiry. Things are happening and we do have to measure that. We, at the moment, have biannual reports to take stock of where we are with all the fund and the projects. I'm very keen in 2024 to develop the next phase of that so we can have a proper reporting in place to look at the jobs implications and what's been created, as well as the wider investment. One of the issues that I have been raising with officials so we can try and address this is the just transitions, not just one aspect of policy or one fund. There's lots of different sources of support at the moment and activity under way across Scotland, particularly in North East Scotland, that support the just transition. We have to bring that together and tell the story and then look at a country where we are with the just transition. I mean, there are other questions around the fund in particular, but the just transition lab are looking at a thematic approach. They've suggested employment, earnings and skills, then looking at housing, poverty and wellbeing, democratic participation and then community empowerment revitalisation and net zero. It recognises that it's not just about the energy transition, it's not just about the skills, it's about broader areas. I know it's difficult things to measure, but are the Government having discussions with, for example, the just transition lab to think, is it the aim of the Government to try and set out some framework that can be managed is it having an impact on poverty, is it having an impact, what can impact is this having on communities to get understanding of it? The chance is yes and that we warmly welcome the report from the just transition lab Abern University, which is again a new innovation in the university of last year or two, which shows pace of change. They've created that lab and I know the academics quite well that are working within that. I know the Cabinet Secretary, Mary McCallan, who, of course, leads this subject cabinet, was up at the university meeting at the lab recently discussing this very report, so we're very keen to take on boards their recommendations as part of our thinking going forward this year. Okay, thank you. I'll bring in Maggie Chapman, followed by Kevin Stewart. Thanks very much, Kate. Good morning, Minister. Thank you for joining us this morning. I've got a few questions around community participation and community engagement and the issues that they've brought to us. We were in Aberdeen for a day at the start of the inquiry speaking to community groups, but also we had one of our committee meetings in Aberdeen and I heard from people who either worked directly with community groups or facilitated their work, local authorities included. One of the things they said quite clearly was that trust in their aims and ambitions is pretty low. There are a lot of fine words around what they mean and I think we do all share the endeavour and come to that point, we know the end point but we don't know how to get there. I think there is a lack of trust within communities and community groups about exactly what that direction of travel is and I just wondered how you answered that challenge of lack of trust that community groups have in not necessarily the Scottish Government itself but the whole process of just transition. Well clearly times are quite tough just now as we are all aware and I can very much understand the frustration in communities. Energy prices are rocketing, they're surrounded by energy resources and can't quite square why they're paying through those for energy bills and we are surrounded by energy resources and the contradiction there. I understand and hear some of the frustrations from community representatives and indeed just members of the communities that I meet but I think we have begun to address that and of course the test will be when people see and feel change in their societies and their communities and you know there are many projects underway now which I think will deliver visible change in communities in terms of energy efficiency renewables various other projects that have come forward. There is a bottom up aspect to just transition here it's not just top down at the heart of just transitions bottom up. The participatory budgeting has been a success I think 10,000 people voted in the first year 19,000 people voted for local projects in the second year so it's nearly 100 increase so slowly but surely more and more people are engaging in the just transition debates and activities and projects and expressing an interest so we just have to build on that and participatory budgeting is committed to going forward throughout this parliament as part of the just transition funds but we need transformational projects and we need transformation that people can see and feel. No thanks and I get that you know we we just a couple of years into this process and I hear what you say about the the participatory budgeting fund I know other people want to come on to speak to speak about that specifically there have been questions around the balance of that compared to the rest of it but I'll let others cover that I think one of the one of the challenges and you spoke about this in your opening remarks about you know what wanting to and having the ambition to have a co-created just transition process that that is more than just about energy it's really an economic transition that that we're looking at it's going to affect every aspect of of people's lives and I suppose there's a question that community groups and communities have you know when they say something isn't working they don't see policies changing in you know whether that's local government whether that's national government they don't necessarily see they say that they said you know we want this to happen in in our community and the policies around them don't join up they don't enable they don't facilitate and I think they there's a frustration not only around that the lack of trust which we've spoken about but of things not being joined up and I just wondered what and it's not necessarily about resource it's about approach I just wondered how your conversations with local authorities and other public agencies in the region and the government itself how those conversations are going around making sure things are actually joined up and we we're getting away from the siloing of you know whether it's planning or or whatever it is if it's not just energy we focused on and I think we all agree it can't be how are we making sure that we think across departments and we don't end up with siloed disconnect so I can speak to what's happening within government and to certain extent the public sector but clearly the just transition is a concept and an approach that has to be adopted by all parts of society it's not just for government alone you know the business community local community groups local government as well as you know the public the wider public sector in Scottish government so in Scottish government clearly all ministers and cabinet secretaries are engaged in delivering a just transition through their own portfolios and as we take forward the various plans that would be come on to in the next further questions you know each minister and cabinet secretary is responsible for those it's not myself or my name is Callan the cabinet secretary is solely responsible for taking them forward so knocking down the silos and across government working will hopefully move forward in a positive way there's a lot of challenges you mentioned it are applicable to society generally not just transition trying to knock down the silos trying to get around to working together going in one direction and I absolutely understand how communities can get frustrated when we don't see that I suppose there's a very very particular point about you know engagement happens communities tell government what they want or what they think should happen and nothing changes that I think I think that that's that's a problem that we need to address and I think that's linked to a sense that communities can jump up and down all they like but it's the usual suspects that get their way and and and I'm just wondering I hear what you said earlier about we're needing to you know see progress we need to to see the change and then people will will will realise the benefits but I'm not sure that communities are clear how that change is going to happen with their involvement and it isn't just going to be the usual suspects that the players that are already active already quite powerful in the region are having having to say the final word if you like yeah I do understand the concern and I absolutely identify with it you know capacity building is a big theme as well to ensure that it's not just the loudest voices and the same voices are commanding all the attention of the public sector of the Scottish government or whoever else that's again not just an argument applies to this debate that applies right across the board so capacity building is really important and we do have to find ways of ensuring that local government central governments who have a lot of influence over this can work closer together to try and make sure all voices are heard and that we do find ways if we can because resources are so tight just now of building capacity to ensure that it's not just the loudest voices that listen to as minister I make a special effort to make sure I'm not listening just to the usual voices and the loudest voices and I'm confident my colleagues do that as well so as the participatory budget process shows we are beginning to you know involve more and more people in this okay thanks I think do you know maybe just what's that a small yeah good way to do that so firstly absolutely recognise the the challenge that has been presented by these two first set of questions and I would contrast the process of the just transition work with the work on climate change and decarbonisation decarbonisation is much easier to measure and it's much easier to communicate exactly what that means to people it's quite immediate and it's quite stark and however challenging that is and it's very challenging to decarbonise at least you can measure your progress and communicate what you're doing quite quickly I think the just transition because it has economic jobs environmental community based fairness aspects it can't be that that kind of one measure and so I think the challenge that we have with working with the just transition commission and the just transition lab and others who advise us is how do we firstly measure our success and secondly how do we communicate that to people and that is definitely a work in progress it's not straightforward but it's certainly as the minister has said one of our priorities for the year ahead I think in terms of communities I think there's that is going to be an ongoing challenge I don't think that in three years time we will have cracked it you know I don't think we're ever going to solve it but I think it is something we prioritise and it is something that we are continuing to to work on so one aspect of that is that when we were working on the just transition draft plans which goes beyond energy so they it's transport it's land use in agriculture it's construction over the summer we conducted a series of events where we went across Scotland to talk to different communities and not just the voices that are usually heard but groups with protected characteristics community groups women people with disabilities we were listening across the spectrum and then trying to draw some of the priorities that communities have out of that as as part of what we want to form in the just transition plans and with respect to northeastern Murray when we were working on the just transition fund it wasn't easy to put together a quick framework that said this is what we're trying to achieve because as the minister says it is partially about jobs but it's also about skills it's also about the environment it's also about community participation and so the way that we did that within a constrained time frame was to talk to councils and local authorities to talk to green MSPs to talk to communities themselves about what they wanted to see from that fund and then we made sure that we were choosing projects in conjunction with people like Scottish Enterprise, Highlands and Islands Enterprise and councils rather than doing it ourselves and as as the minister said participatory but budgeting is an important aspect of that fund albeit I would accept a challenge that you know it wouldn't necessarily be everybody's everybody wouldn't always have said how much proportionally we've put into that and agree with it but it is on it is constantly a part of what we we do and try to prioritize okay thank you Kevin Stewart before by calling me to thank you very much and good morning minister we spent a fair amount of time with community organisations and Aberdeen and Maggie Chapman has touched upon the trust aspect one of the things which was also apparent was some folk felt that there was a lack of transparency around about where monies were going obviously you've highlighted the participatory budgeting scenario a lot of the folks that we talked to had been involved in that were very positive about that and very positive about their own project of course but they did not have a clear understanding of some of the other resources that have been allocated particularly to business and without giving one of the examples that came up in depth they mentioned to me one particular business that had received substantial funding and they were unhappy with that but when it was explained to them by myself what that money was for attitude changed completely and utterly because they then understood why it is so do you think that we are doing enough to be absolutely open and transparent and communicating the reasons why it is that we're allocating certain sums of money as we are doing well on one hand it's a powerful point that to Kevin Stewart makes there I do think we're open and transparent there everything is able to be in the public domain in terms of who's receiving the monies and the grants and the the various projects that are being supported however clearly there is a communication challenge if that's your experience and I'm sure it's not the only experience I often speak to people as well who are suspicious of x amount of money going to businesses and not to community groups and I you know there's obviously some tensions within that whole debate because clearly I have to explain that if we're going to transform the economy we have to work with the business community we have to support big transformational projects that will create potentially hundreds if not thousands of jobs in the coming years we can't achieve that transformation without supporting projects like that but likewise we do want to support smaller projects and communities and understand that people want full transparency and to understand the rationale behind those decisions I wonder minister because you talked about the twice yearly reporting on this I wonder if it would be beneficial if taking commercial sensitivity aside if we could actually let folk know communities know the people of northeastern Murray know what the allocations are actually being used for because I do think that if we if we actually let people know and be as open and transparent as possible then they come along with us you know there was a huge amount of positivity for the community aspect less of a positivity for the business grants that have been made but you know when that was explained the reasoning why certain things had happened that positivity grew so can we get that comms right as we move forward please would be my plea well I agree with you we have to and I'll certainly reflect on your points as I said at the beginning as well I think there's as we go through this just transition process there's a couple of communication challenges one is ensuring that everyone's aware of how the fund is working and making a difference in northeastern Murray but secondly how there's a lot of other a lot of other activities happening in Scotland just now that support the just transition and we have to bring that together and tell the big picture in the full story so I think on those two levels I'm very keen to pursue that this year you said earlier on that this has to be a bottom-up process and we have to listen to people and you know certainly that's how I think that should happen I think that we are getting there and people in the main feel involved but in terms of some of the discussion around about that bottom-up aspect there were some frustrations it would be fair to say around about resource that's available now I recognise that the Scottish Government have come up with the just transition fund for which we're very grateful a lot of that funding though is capital funding and particularly from community organisations they feel that there needs to be much more access to revenue resource funding I wonder minister if there is a way that there could be cooperation between all of the public services to match up some of the resource funding that is required to allow certain projects to get off the ground and also I'd be interested to hear any comment that you have around about communication with the UK Government to try and get them to match the just transition funding that the Scottish Government has put in to the northeastern Murray thanks firstly in terms of the revenue support for the just transition and all the various projects that have massive financial implications and ongoing implications I don't need to tell the committee how tough things are financially just now in the public sector and for governments therefore I don't have an easy answer to that at the moment all I can do is continue to reflect upon it obviously the committee refers to that in your inquiry report you know we'll again use that opportunity to give further reflection to it but I just it's just a financial issue in terms of revenue support and also capital is a way to achieve transformation and the capital investments often bring in and unlock private sector investments so you know we're getting even more transformational projects through that means so that's why there's a big focus in capital however you know the point's well made in terms of interaction with the UK government you know up to 400 billion pounds has been taken out of the North Sea in the oil and gas revenues over the past decades and we therefore have made a point many times UK government that we believe they could match the just transition fund for for North East Scotland and will continue to make that point I hope we will this could be your final question I'll move on to calling to you I hope you will continue to make that point as a North East representative I certainly will be as we as we move forward you talked about that capital monies bringing in further financing resource from the private sector but I wonder minister and again I know this is early days are we seeing changes in terms of the spend of the other public sector bodies in order to get the very best out of the just transition fund or do you think there's more work to do in that regard with the councils with the health boards etc etc there are a number of projects where just transition funding is just one part of the funding for the project and which is is clearly unlocked and and there's been collaboration with outside investment as well so it's playing a valuable role in that context and the enterprise companies and local authorities are working closely with the Scottish government and we consult them closely and all the projects are funded through the just transition fund so I know that there's more work to be done and more we can do there to make sure that momentum continues with that collaboration and jointly funding projects so again we'll continue to reflect on that but there are some good examples out there at the moment this committee over the course of this evidence taking has looked at aspects of the development of the just transition plans and how joined up these are and in that regard can I ask you what coordination has there been between the Scottish government and for example the UK government and local authorities and secondly do the plans align with those other different layers of government? Interaction with UK governments over just transition largely would revolve around the North Sea transition deal and these initiatives where there's common aims and that is supporting a range of projects in North East Scotland as our other UK funds were where we are able to secure them. I think a lot of the projects that are supported hopefully by the UK government as well as the Scottish government are bottom-up projects so their proposals from the Northeast of Scotland's I think of the net zero technology centre which is a fantastic initiative project in Aberdeen. I think I'm right in saying that it's attracted UK monies as well as Scottish so there are projects there which originally in the Northeast of Scotland and attract UK funds and they've got a just transition theme to them. I'm sure there's more capacity for ensuring the UK government working closer with us and just transition principles. There's a lot of engagement on just transition but particularly climate change and net zero funds and offshore policy. You've focused there on the UK government and on individual projects where hopefully the two governments are working together. Is there a sort of an overall picture of co-operation and co-ordination with the UK government and not forgetting local authorities? It's one of the issues that I want to reflect upon this year reflecting in the first couple of years of the just transition fund and the wider policy because we do need support of the UK government and we need support of all local government Scotland as well but I am impressed by how particularly in Scotland the just transition is increasingly reflected in decisions and obviously even in terms of the UK government if you look at the growth deals which is probably one of the more positive examples of co-operation between the Scottish government UK government where we've actually been able to work together. The growth deals are a good example of innovative projects in the just transition, stroke net zero space and innovation space emerging and being funded jointly by the UK government and Scottish government. Is there a lot more to do in terms of joining up within Scotland? Just continuing on the co-ordination with the UK government, the just transition lab and I quote states that the UK and Scottish governments have wildly different approaches to net zero. How does that affect your just transition plans? Does it affect it at all? Is it actually so divergent? Now we know that there's been changes in UK government policy recently which might impact on their climate change plans. To what extent are we actually in the knowledge on that and being updated on that? Well clearly in terms of the just transition, UK decisions are fundamental. We saw the recent change in the offer to offshore winds projects which the UK government had to revisit after there was a lack of applications for offshore wind sites in the least recent licensing round. They took a decision obviously to address that in light of the lack of applications to encourage more offshore winds licence applications. The spending priorities of the UK government influence hugely the ability to implement a just transition in Scotland. Just now of course Scottish government is dealing with a very difficult budget settlement which impacts what we can invest in all kinds of just transition activities in the net zero agenda and I think that's well documented in the cabinet and the First Minister and others have made lots of comment on that. So yeah I mean that's just a general principle there that the funding decisions of the UK government which often are not helpful have a direct impact in the ability to deliver a just transition in Scotland. But the statement that the approaches of the two governments are wildly different would you would you agree with that assessment? Well clearly we saw the furor recently when the UK Prime Minister Ricky Shnack backtracked in some of these climate change commitments. We wouldn't have done that in Scotland if we'd had a sale over some of these policy areas. So there is obviously divergence in some areas and we just have to continue to work with the UK government to persuade them to invest in the right priorities and also to give Scotland a decent budget settlement to enable us to fulfill our responsibilities to deliver a just transition in Scotland. I mean divergence in certain areas perhaps is not unreasonable given given the devolved settlement and so on but wildly different is fairly extreme in terms of a statement for anyone to make. Is it a statement you would agree with? Well it's wildly different. I think of course there are examples where we would not support nuclear power in Scotland, we would put the billions of investment that are going to go into that in the public purse into renewables and green technologies and the net zero agenda in Scotland. So clearly there are massive differences in some areas of policy north and south of the border and between UK government and Scottish government so wildly different perhaps one way of describing it is interesting that external bodies are now taking that view. Thank you very much convener and good morning to the panel. Can I turn to the issue of skills during the committee's evidence? We have criticism for example from the Just Transition Partnership that a skills passport has not been delivered despite being committed to in 2021. So can I ask the minister why has progress towards delivering that skills passport stalled and when can workers expect to see it delivered? Thank you to Colin Smyth for the question that's a very important issue because the Scottish Government takes the development of a skills passport very seriously and of course it's something that I think there's cross-party support in the Parliament for to make it easier for people working for instance in oil and gas to transfer their skills and employment into renewable energy and other green technologies. It's making progress. I had a catch-up meeting a few weeks ago with some of the stakeholders on the working group dealing with this and of course the Scottish Government gave a deadline to the working group of the end of March to try and get this concluded. There's a lot of work being taken place. I think actually the stakeholders are meeting next week or next week or two for the next meeting and it's been a big task trying to align standards amongst the various sectors involved between renewables and oil and gas in particular obviously in this case. There's got to be alignment of standards, there's got to be alignment of training requirements and I think there's been some areas clearly that are taking a lot longer to iron out than we'd have hoped. So I'm hopeful that we'll have a conclusion by the end of March which is the deadline we've laid down. Just on that, so the end of March is a target to introduce a passport or simply to report back on the work? To give us the solution that we're working on just now. To enable us to introduce it but that's when we're asking the group to come back to us with the final version of the digital passport. Okay, during the evidence, Scottish Renewables pointed out that many workers in this sector are currently having to fund re-skilling or upskilling out of their own pockets. You write the union-estimated discourse for workers around £2,000 and Skills Development Scotland stated there's capacity in the Skills Development Pipeline to quote them if we get the financial resources to apply it, for example, to support apprenticeships. So can I ask minister, are the government doing enough to support workers to re-skill given the fact that they are having to fund it themselves in many cases and what further action do the government plan to take to support them? Clearly the skills issue is the heart of the just transition and ensuring it's as smooth as possible for people to transfer the skills into different sectors. There's a lot of work under wages now, Skills Development Scotland have been doing a lot of work with the apprenticeships in green industries, that's making good progress. Clearly there's a number of initiatives being funded through the Just Transition Fund in North East Scotland that addresses this issue as well. Clearly we expect companies themselves to play a role in funding training for their own workforces, which is always the case, that should certainly be the case with the Just Transition at the same time. We are actively looking at a lot of this just now and can assure Colin Smith, and we of course have the commitment to refresh the climate change skills action plan and the work that flows out of that, which we're looking at how that joins up with the rest of the skills issues within the space. We've had the James Withers report, which of course also mentioned the energy transition and net zero at the core of his recommendations for how we changed the landscape in Scotland over skills and training, so that's all been looked at just now and is very active. Obviously crucial to this is funding. If you're right, I'm pointing out that workers haven't paid £2,000 to reskill themselves. Skills Development Scotland you mentioned around apprenticeships, but we've seen that being reduced and I think to quotes SDS and the evidence to committee what they said is for skills we need more revenue resource for training activities, but obviously the recent budget proposes a £4.1 million cut in SDS budget. We've got the skills budget being cut from £50.6 million to £36.9 million. We're seeing cuts also coming to colleges, so if we've already got a problem where workers are effectively funding the reskilling themselves, yet we're seeing probably reductions in funding. Where do you see the funding coming from to support workers? Kevin Stewart raised the point about the transition fund, but again, Skills Development Scotland told the committee the point that Kevin made that it's mainly capital, but what they need is revenue, so I'm just curious as to where the funding to tackle this issue is going to come from. What sort of proposal do the Government have? Well, the first point I'd make is that if any MSP or party in the Parliament believes that the budget needs amended is a draft budget before Parliament just now and they can use the opportunity to put forward proposals if they can explain where the alternative resources are going to come from to increase any particular budget. The financial environment is very tight just now. I can't sit here and give guarantees of substantial increases in such funds at the moment, but what I can say in terms of whether there's apprenticeships, there has been an increase in the number of apprenticeships for green industries and so on. I know that the member has made a reference about the overall picture, but I'm talking here about this particular agenda, so I think that things are going the right direction. I think that we have invested in a lot of really good training and skills initiatives through the Just Transition Fund and the special fund that was set up for this purpose over the past few years as well, because we've got the Energy Transition Fund and we've got the Training Fund as well. There's a lot of good initiatives under way in Scotland right now that are being supported in the public purse. I'm happy to look at the specific issue of employees paying for their own training and come back to the committee on that point, if that's helpful. I'll bring in Brian Whittle and then I'll bring in Gordon MacDonald. Thank you. Good morning, minister. I'll just follow on from Colin Smith's question. I've spoken to an international recruitment company who were claiming that they're stripping out a lot of talent out of North Sea and it's shipping it abroad. Now, it's difficult to measure that, but it does seem reasonable that that potentially could be happening. One of the things that we need to do is ensure that the jobs are available and that the journey from fossil fuel to renewables, renewable jobs, is as smooth and as simple as possible, because we need to keep these people in Scotland. Is the Scottish Government doing any work to measure around the number of green jobs of that sort of standard are being created and how that transition is being delivered from oil and gas? Skills Development Scotland do their own skills assessments and obviously I think they gave evidence to your committee, I'm not sure whether that was raised with them directly, but there's a lot of work again underway and Skills Development Scotland have carried that out already and continue to do that on a regular basis in terms of skills assessments for the green energy sectors and of course the rest of the sectors in Scotland as well. The energy transition zone in Aberdeen, for instance, is creating five skills hubs and the Cabinet Secretary, Manny McAllan, is at the launch of the key hub at North East Scotland College recently, which the Scottish Government is giving, I think it's around £45 million towards. So there's a lot of exciting initiatives happening. In terms of monitoring and the skills, obviously RGU carried out a lot of work, which the Scottish Government often refers to, laying out the challenges of the skills requirements between now and 2040-2050 and of course RGU showed that actually we could have more energy jobs than what we have just now in North East Scotland and indeed the country if we play our cards right. Many companies that speak to me talk about skills shortages and labour shortages, so it's not just an issue of people transferring one sector to another. If people are looking for jobs, quite often there is a job available for them, so it's making sure we get the upskilling in place and RGU and the University of Aberdeen and others in North East Scotland in this area are doing a lot of work on that in terms of upskilling, short courses and so on, so we have to support that going forward. Thank you, Gordon MacDonald. Thank you very much, good morning minister. I just want to continue this conversation we've got about the job situation. You quite rightly touched upon the RGU report making the switch and they highlighted that 90 per cent of North Sea workers already have medium to high skills that are transferable to adjacent energy and they suggested that if we get this right we could have 54,000 jobs in 2030 and the Government's own figures say 77,000 jobs by 2050. Other than skills, what are the challenges facing the North East and becoming the global energy hub in order that we can look after installed offshore wind, hydrogen generation and carbon capture and storage? What are the challenges that are facing them in order that we can get this 77,000 jobs? The challenges are clearly we need the transformational projects up and running as quickly as possible and we need them to get under way whether it's offshore or whether it's many of the onshore projects that are being looked at at the moment in terms of carbon capture and storage plans and so on and so forth. Clearly the UK Government's got big role to play here as well because this is not all in our hands as a Scottish Government so we need the UK Government to put its shoulder to the wheel in terms of doing everything it can to ensure the carbon capture and storage plans are moving forward at pace. We finally go over the hurdle of the ACORM project getting the go ahead. It took a long time to get there and far too long because there's tens of thousands of jobs that will be created through that alone. There's also the wider economic environment, which is a challenge at a time of high interest rates. Of course that's an impact on decisions that are taken to invest in new capital projects, in pipeline projects and at the pace at which they can be brought forward. It's all influenced by the wider macroeconomic environment. Again, that's not just the Scottish Government, it's also a UK Government issue as well. So these are the kinds of challenges. On the jobs issue of course it's really important to make a couple of points that I would like to convey to the committee firstly that Scotland is leading virtually all the league tables across the UK for the creation of green jobs. We're ahead, whether it's PWC, whether it's EY's analysis, various other analyses that have been carried out, we are creating and advertising for more green jobs in Scotland than any other part of the UK and that's consistent. So there is a green job revolution under way in Scotland at the moment and we should hopefully appreciate that. I know some people want to go faster and I understand that obviously as well and we need to do more but there's a green jobs revolution under way in Scotland as we speak. Independent research carried out by I think it was University of Warwick at the behest of Skills Development Scotland said that it was up to 100,000 new green jobs being created in Scotland and we saw the recent Fraser of Alans Institute report commissioned by Scottish Renewables saying that there were 42,000 full-time equivalent jobs and renewables now in Scotland and often other figures are quoted but that's the latest figure is 42,000. So it's all going the right direction. There's tens of thousands of new jobs being created in Scotland in the green sectors. Another aspect which I think we have to get to the bottom of is often I visit businesses in North East Scotland in particular in Aberdeen who are counted as oil and gas companies but they're doing 50, 70% of their working renewables. So we have to work against often the ONS and other authorities who collect the statistics and define the statistics. We have to work on that to make sure they're more accurate because I do find ironic that I'm going to a company class that is engineering or oil and gas which is working renewables so we have to capture that because again that's part of the renewables revolution and the green jobs revolution that's happening in Scotland just now as well. So I just want to look at some of the other barriers and one that he didn't touch upon was finance. The same RGU report said that we require over 17 billion in new regional investment between 2022 and 2030 to manufacture and operational capabilities for the renewable sector and the Crown Estate Scotland noted that a recent foreign direct investment intelligence report reported that $54 billion was pledged to wind power in Scotland but required the creation of a low risk and attractive business environment. Can you say anything about the challenges facing the financial situation? Clearly this is a massive issue in Scotland but it's a global issue at the same time of how to attract green investments for the world's move towards net zero and in terms of Scotland to make sure we realise the energy potential for instance in offshore wind and other technologies to create the jobs that we want to see in the future. So there's activity under wages now to attract more capital investment to Scotland, we've got a capital investment plan, we've had the First Minister's recent panel reporting on how to attract international investment to Scotland to fund net zero and there's recommendations from that that are being looked at now and considered by government of what we can do to deliver them. We have had a lot of activity in the space over the last few months and years from the private capital markets and players as well as public sector and Scottish Government initiatives. In terms of challenges, again it kind of goes back to my previous answer obviously at a time of high interest rates and we've seen some economics instability at UK level over the last year or two that doesn't help that stable environment. What I do get back because I'm also sitting before you today as the minister for trade is when I'm speaking to inward investors around the world they are full of praise for Scotland and I don't just sit here as a minister of the government saying that because I want to say good things it is eye opening to hear what people outside of Scotland say about Scotland and we don't hear enough because we hear a lot of negativity in our own country but when I'm speaking to companies overseas they're very positive at Scotland. What they say to me is that why they're attracted to investing in Scotland and our energy transition in particular but not just that technology looks of other sectors is because they've seen a long-term commitment to net zero in Scotland. They've seen a stable and committed policy in Scotland towards net zero. The government's been in power here since 2007 so I think that's helped greatly because we're able to have that long-term commitment there so that's what I hear from international investors so I think that is going to deliver a lot of dividends for Scotland. My last point in terms of barriers to this transition we're trying to achieve. Aberdeen Chamber of Commerce, Scottish National Investment Bank, Scottish Renewables and SSE Group all highlighted grid connection issues as a barrier to development offshore wind. Can you say anything about when it's to change in that direction? Well yes and I should have addressed that point because it's a very important point to raise in my earlier answer to your question about challenges. So a massive challenge clearly is ensuring the grid can deliver and that's in terms of delivering the just transition. We need projects up and running, that will deliver the jobs, that will deliver the activity, the revenues. To get those big projects up and running they need access to the grid and that of course is one of the biggest challenges. I know my energy minister colleague Julian Martin as well as Neil Gray, the Cabinet Secretary and others have been doing a lot of work on this as part of the development of the energy policy. The final strategy of course will be delivered and published in by the summer. So the grid has been adapting its policies and there's now a lot of initiatives under way from the national grid to try and prioritise renewable energy developments. So that's a very important aspect to raise. I'm happy to write back to the committee on that. Obviously I'm not the minister directly dealing with the national grid on this but there has been a lot of activity over the last 12 months. Thank you very much. Thank you just for bringing in Murdo Fraser. I suppose linked to that is the issue of planning. So groups were also organising how long it takes to get consents. SSC said that currently the average offshore wind farm takes around 12 years to deliver and major network infrastructure can take longer. While the national planning framework did address some of the issues with that, there's still a recognition that it is a long process, it's very time consuming and it can damage our ability to be an early mover on some of that. I know you're not the Prime Minister but can you tell us what action the Government has taken? Is there a recognition of how long it has taken to consents and how it's creating a barrier for business to be forward in this area? Yes, that is an area where a Scottish Government does have influence and responsibility in terms of one of the challenges and we do recognise it. If Tom Arthur was sitting before your ministerial colleague, he would explain to you how the latest national planning framework prioritises renewable energy developments and that should speed up the process for them. Also, the recently published Onshore Wind Sector Deal, which lays down what we expect to be delivered by onshore wind developers for Scotland's benefit, but likewise gives commitments to the Scottish Government to help to develop Scotland's onshore wind potential, has a commitment in it to drastically reduce the time for the licensing and the planning. I might be something that we pick up, we might contact the minister because while that is the update as welcome, it's the timescales attached to that, how long will it take until these changes are delivered? I'll bring in Murdo Fraser. Thank you, thank you, good morning minister. Other colleagues have touched on the Just Transition Fund but a few more questions specifically on the fund and how it operates. Some of the witnesses we've taken evidence from have told us they're not clear what the fund's objectives are or how it will be monitored and evaluated. So I wonder if you could say how the Scottish Government sees the objectives of the fund and also how you expect to monitor and evaluate how that money is being spent. Yeah, so they're very good questions and I think we did touch upon that briefly earlier and I am determined in 2024 to try and make sure that we move forward on this. The first couple of years were very focused on getting the fund up and running and if we'd waited to answer some of those questions, we'd have been criticised quite rightly for not getting the fund up and running and taking a couple of years to sort out the processes behind the scenes. So there are of course processes in place but we absolutely understand that we have to show how everything's been measured going forward. In terms of the objectives of the fund, clearly the fund is to support the strengthening of the economy in North East Scotland and Murray and to decarbonise and to deliver the principles which I've already discussed of the Just Transition. So we want the projects and how the funding is used to be co-designed and we want a bottom-up approach within the region that has been happening. The Just Transition is about creating good green jobs as well as strengthening communities so there's a variety of projects within that and I'm trying to remember the name of that film as everything everywhere all at once and then some people I speak to see the fund like that it should deliver everything because you can kind of take any subject and you could perhaps get it under the remit of the Just Transition fund. So we've had to of course filter out and make sure that the projects that we have coming forward we discuss with the local enterprise companies, local authorities and we take a decision of what the best projects to deliver the broad objectives of the Just Transition fund. Okay, thanks very much for that. Some of the community groups we spoke to and also some of the local authorities we spoke to did express some concern about the role of SNP as the key driver, the lack of engagement with SNP so given SNP is intended to be an arms length independent body how does Scottish Government ensure that SNP will deliver on the objectives of the fund if it's also got an element of freedom of operation? You're right in that SNP, the Scottish National Investment Bank, are at arms length clearly from ministers. We allocated £25 million of financial transactions funding to the bank. The decisions over how that is actually invested in which projects are decisions for the bank. However, one of the objectives of the bank clearly is to support the net zero agenda and in terms of the £25 million allocation it's towards Just Transition. So the actual projects will be delivered and chosen by the banks not ministers because they're at arms length but clearly our expectation agreement is this is funded from the Just Transition fund at £25 million. Now the reason why the bank is used is clearly of a lot of experience in using financial transactions. Financial transactions is a resource provided to the UK Government. It's complex, it's effectively long term loans but very long term but it's a way in which we can support capital investment and that's why it's part of the Just Transition fund because clearly we don't have the capital to fund everything we'd like to fund so we use the financial transactions. So that's the reason why the bank is used. In terms of transparency with the bank, clearly I'm trying to recall that you took evidence maybe from the bank or you heard from them, that is an issue to raise directly with the bank. I'll certainly reflect on that for our next conversations with them but once the announcements are made that will be in the public domain. Okay, the other issue that came up quite a lot particularly from the community groups was there was funding for capital but not for revenue and this means that if they've got projects that are intended to run over a period of years it's difficult to find secure funding to sustain those. Is that something you're conscious of when they can be done in that space? I'm certainly conscious of it and it's certainly a bigger issue for applicants that clearly don't have the capacity or other sources of revenue for the on-going commitment for particular types of projects so the smaller the organisation, for instance, clearly is going to face the bigger challenge. This goes back to my original point in that the just transition fund has got to be transformational. In 10 years' time, I believe that we have to look back and think that's £500 million when the public person was invested into the just transition in North East Scotland Murray and we can see how it's been transformational and we have to look back at that point in time and see it's been transformational. We can only do that by supporting transformational projects. Now, it's part of just transition principles, it's not just big Chinese projects that have to be funded, we want to fund community projects and that can be a variety of different types of projects but capital clearly is needed for transformational projects, emphasis is capital and obviously, as I said before, the financial constraints we face just now mean that on-going revenue commitments would not necessarily be affordable. So, yes, I'm conscious of it, yes, I'm always keen to investigate what more we can do particularly for smaller organisations. Lastly, Premier, for me, just on the quantum of funding, so according to the figures we've had in 23-24 in the current year, the funding was allocated at £50 million, for the next financial year is £12 million, so why the big reduction in funding in the coming year? Well, we have our £75 million commitments and we have, in the draft budget, as part of that on-going commitment of the £12.2 million. That's because of the capital constraints that we face to Governments. Both financial transactions and capital funding have been reduced in the UK Government, as you'll know it's well documented, as the finance secretary said, 10 per cent in real terms, so that just gives us challenges. We'd like to be in a position to put more resource into the just transition fund. Clearly, it's a draft budget before Parliament just now, so I can't say too much until we're sitting here with the final figures in due course, but I just want to make clear to committee officers that that's just due to financial challenges. So we will have ground to make up and we have the commitment in place of £500 million within 10 years, so let's all hope that the financial environment improves sooner or later to enable us to fund all the vital projects we need to the just transition. But the trajectory is not encouraging. If it's £50 million this year going down to 12 next year, I mean, are you confident you're going to get to the £500 million? Well, we have £75 million that we wouldn't have otherwise had if we hadn't had a just transition fund just for North East Scotland and Murray, and it's a fund that is not available for the UK Government, it's the Scottish Government, so it's an added value fund. I'll bring Brian Whittle in a second, but in terms of the fund, we hear what you're saying about financial restrictions, but this is a 10-year project, so we do need to look towards the horizon and the end point here. The just transition lab, there has been some concerns raised around when we talk about financial transactions that is more suited to the commercial sector and to bigger players and for more community-driven projects that are difficult for them to access that funding. I mean, you've said the restrictions that are on it in the coming financial year, but do you see a way in which there could be more funding available for more community projects, ones that are on a scale? We're not talking about the fund that is for fixing the Scout Hall, which is valuable, but that's what we meant. It's things that are on a bigger scale. What kind of funding would be available? Do you see that funding that would be available to them during this 10-year period? How do we shift the funding to that area or make it accessible to that area rather than shift it? I understand that tension and I've heard that argument at that point many times. Firstly, yes, there will be funding for projects of that nature as we move through the 10-year fund. Already some projects are being funded. In terms of the balance, we will clearly pay attention to the balance between the kinds of projects that are being supported, but I have to return to the fact that we have to be transformational. Transformation can happen at different levels. I'm not just saying that it's only through larger projects, but we are supporting the moment lots of SMEs. We're working with the energy transition zone. They get funding. They've funded 10 companies, SMEs, last year, and 14 companies. I've just been lucky enough in their latest rounds for their energy transition fund that they have. There's a full name to the fund, which I can give you in a second or two, but it's called the supply chain and energy transition challenge fund. That's supported 24 SMEs, if I'm right, through that fund. SMEs are getting supported. It's not just large projects. As I said before, some community projects have been funded as well. We have to pay attention to that balance, but we have to pay attention to transformational projects. Transformational projects can be very expensive. If you're changing the kind of energy that you're using in a community, that's a very expensive project. We just have to make sure that they're transformational. The just transition fund is not the only fund that's funding the just transition in North East Scotland and Murray. There's many other funds. The green jobs fund has been supporting the creation of green jobs and helping SMEs as well. That's £100 million commitment over five years, and already we've seen the enterprise companies deliver that fund. So there's various funds supporting just transition. Though transformational is not always about giving the example of energy change, that is giving us benefits in terms of achieving net zero because we're decarbonising, but transformational is also about how it invests in a community and empowers a community, and that's about some of the other questions about de-industrialisation of HUD before, where communities were left behind. It's just what I understand that transformational is. It is about the nuts and bolts of making the change and getting us to net zero, but it is also about how you transform a community and involve a community in it. You'll know that we did an inquiry into GrangeMouse, and the committee have taken further evidence in GrangeMouse, because we are concerned with the announcements there, and that, from the outside, is looking quite concerned and isn't really looking like a just transition. It's how do we prevent that happening and make sure that the investment is going in directly to communities and empowering them to take more ownership of projects? Yes, it's a very good point, and I do recognise that, and we will absolutely monitor that and listen to concerns expressed by community groups, or indeed the just transition lab, as well. Indeed, you may reflect some of those concerns in your report, which we'll respond to in due course. That's a very open question, minister. I just wanted to assure the committee that there are many projects being funded. I've got a list here, and I can only hold this up at the moment. Those are lists of projects over many pages that are through the north, east, and Murray just transition fund alone, and there are many other funds that are not covered. I assure the committee that, among those projects, I'm happy to make sure that it's all copied to the committee. There are some community projects, as well as business projects and big projects. It's just trying to balance being transformational with ensuring that there's change at community level, and we've got bottom-up projects, and I absolutely understand that. I was bringing in Brian Whittle, but, as other members have said, there is a yearly allocation of the fund. I think that this year is when you're looking to review the fund because, while it was capital, when we met with local groups, they were all very grateful for the money that they received and it is making a difference to their organisations. The timescale that they had to work to, especially for a capital project, had to be something that was ready to go, rather than something that they were working towards. I think that the committee will reflect on the report about how the fund was distributed and what improvements can be made to that, but I'll bring in Brian Whittle. I mean, actually, on that point, I mean, one of the things I would note, Ministers, you did point out that I think the figure was 10 per cent reduction, you said. I think 50 million to 12 million, if I go back to my school mathematics, is a lot more than 10 per cent. And I think, as the convener just highlighted, a lot of witnesses have spoken about this, the need for a multi-year revenue funding for the just transition fund because they spend so much of their time applying for the fund on an annual basis and then have a very short period of time in which that money has to be spent. Is there a recognition within the Scottish Government that there are limitations to an annual funding agreement and, especially if they're restricted to just capital funding, is that something that the Government will be considering going forward? We do take that into account and we very much recognise that concern and there are other parts of Government where some changes have been made to give more assurance to certain sectors. I think, for instance, the third sector and some various funds. In terms of this fund, because it's capital intensive, we are very much at the behest of Jeremy Hunt, the UK Chancellor standing up and announcing the UK Government budget, so we are not in the same position as the UK Government in terms of giving those multi-year guarantees. But what we have been doing, we have been funding multi-year projects. So the funding in the draft budget as well as the previous funding are going towards, in many cases, multi-year projects. I take the point, which is clearly looking ahead for several years ahead. There may be projects that require several years of commitment and we clearly are not in a position to give that just now because of the financial constraints. I think that some of the evidence that we took was around the time that the allocation of the funding that was given was round about November, if I'm correct, and they had to spend that money by March. Because of that, we actually heard some evidence around some of the projects just didn't bother to apply because practicality said to them that they wouldn't be able to adhere to the rules, the regulations, so it's just bringing that to your attention, minister, and potentially what the Scottish Government can do to look at that because, of course, some of those projects could be very viable. Yes, and I'll take that point away and certainly reflect upon it and I'm sure that something committee will be raising as well. There's not an easy answer to those questions, but I just want to assure you that we are conscious of that. We've had similar feedback from the groups. Thanks, convener. Good morning, minister. You mentioned earlier on participatory budgeting in terms of the Just Transition Fund and that it's been a success and you said that the Government wanted to build on that success. How do you see that success going forward and will it lead to a widening of engagement? Thanks. From the word goal, we were persuaded that participatory budgeting is a very important element of delivering the Just Transition Fund in north east Scotland in the Murray, for engaging with communities, for that bottom-up approach to other communities and groups to come together and decide what the Just Transition means for them and then come up with projects that could help deliver that in their own communities. So a lot of really good, exciting, innovative, creative thinking going on within communities over the Just Transition. So in terms of raising awareness and engagement, I think it's been very helpful. I also indicated before that 10,000 people voted first time for the projects that was 19,000, so awareness is raising and engagement is raising as well and that's some evidence of it. So we're committed to delivering at least a million pounds a year over the course of this Parliament for participatory budgeting, so it will continue. Obviously, I'm MSP for Murray, so I meet the groups in my own area in particular and it's really inspirational to see how they're addressing this and the debates that are taking place and discussions and what the Just Transition means for various communities within my area and likewise that's happening in Aberdeenshire and Aberdeen City and the third sector organisations are helping to run this for us. Will they actually run it on our behalf? They're funded to do that. So the third sector is playing a very important role here as well. Thank you. We did get some evidence from Murray to UC that there is a trade-off with participatory budgeting, so while it does achieve what you've described, maybe public engagement and enthusiasm around certain projects, they suggest that it doesn't always give an objective criteria of need and merit and I think they highlight that around one of the fund, around 50 per cent of funds, went to organisations in the most affluent ward and for us. So while participatory budgeting is positive and does deliver some of the benefits you've described, how do you make sure that organisations or areas that maybe have less capacity or have less experience in this kind of field of participating or have less, a smaller population, so there's just less votes to go in if people tend to do it in a geographic area which often they do? How do we make sure that the negatives don't outweigh the positives when it comes to participatory budgeting or does there need to be a mix of ways in which the budgeting is distributed? Well if anyone's got the answer on how to avoid trade-offs in all years, I think that's something we all struggle with and always have done. Clearly at some point you have to take a decision and just open funds and work with people to make the best of what's available. There is no way of avoiding trade-offs, even the circumstance you give in the most affluent ward and for us for instance receiving funds, the projects will benefit the whole community so looking at it just through one lens is not always helpful. Obviously I'd have to check out exactly what they said but you know you get me just. So a lot of the projects are about tackling some of the inequalities that I mentioned at the beginning of the meeting today in terms of the just transition is about good green jobs. It's also about tackling some of the social ills and inequalities that we have in our society. So if you live in the energy rich Murray but you can't afford to pay your fuel bills you know it's part of the just transition we have to address some of those issues. So some of these small local projects can help make a difference to some local people and therefore they're important and we have to spread that throughout the whole of the country for the national transition across Scotland. Just a couple of things. So just for clarity in terms of the fund did you say that in this year is when you would be doing an analysis of the fund? Did I pick that up? What I'm saying is yes this year we're determined to take stock this year of many elements of it. You've covered a few of them here obviously I think once you report to us or this year you report from your inquiry there'll be helpful information or ideas within that to help us. There are some issues you've raised today which I certainly want to take away and sort out this year. Some of the communication issues and how we report and so on. And the other thing was around there are delays to several strategies and plans that are relevant to this. Just transition for the draft energy strategies delayed, the just transition plans delayed regional just transition plans, climate change update. I mean I know they don't all come under your portfolio but can you give us an indication of when we can expect these plans to be published which always have an impact on the 10 year plan for Murray and Aberdeen? I'm happy to write back to committee some of the timelines but in a broad context we've said that by the summer we'll publish the final version and the final document in terms of the energy strategy and just transition plan and also we in 2024 we'll be beginning work to kind of put in place the framework for how we're going to take forward regional just transition plans for Scotland but I'll also take some time but we're beginning the work this year on how to take that forward and the framework for doing that. And in terms of the sexual plans the three that are under way just now, the consultation's taken place and I'm trying to ask Trina just to give us a latest estimate of when they'll be available. I hope that the three draft just transition plans will be published before the summer as well. We don't have a timetable for the final ones so the drafts will be obviously ones that we'll then want to consult on. And also the committee of an interest in the Grangemouth one given we did the inquiry in that area and the recent announcements from NAOS. Do we have a timescale for the finalisation of that plan that you're aware of? It's probably better I write back to you for the latest timeline for all these different plans. Okay thank you that brings us to the end of the evidence session this morning and thank you to the minister and to Trina Lang for joining us and we'll now move into private session.