 Tom here from Warren systems back in 2019 I had reviewed some cables which led to a lot of questions with these little thin cables They didn't have the answers to but Dan Burrera did and me and him did a video now Dan works for Ideal Networks and Dan sits on the standards board and is part of the committees that well help ratify these cable Standards has a very in-depth knowledge of course of all these topics and I'll leave a link to the video We did before in this video We kind of bring around some of the new and upcoming cable standards and why you might need to buy a new cable Certifier in order to well comply with these new standards that are coming out even kind of retroactively against existing cables There's a lot of details in it We're gonna dive into some of the engineering behind it and also talk about some new things coming out like single pair Ethernet and what that means including single pair POE. It's kind of another standards coming out For a very specific use case and we dive in the details of that too So if you're interested in all those things you're ready to get deep into weeds, let's get started Tom here from Warren systems, and I'm here with Dan Burrera and welcome Dan again. Hi Tom It's good to be back. Yeah, we did a video together Diving into how the cabling standards are made some of the finer details of that. That was a lot of fun That was pushing not quite two years ago. I think we did that video. Yeah year year and a half I will leave a link down below to that video. This is an update though is we already covered how the cabling standards are made So now let's cover what the new ones that are coming out and some new especially when you said single pair Ethernet That's that's interesting. We also have Resistance and unbalance and how TCL we're gonna get in some deep details on electrical here Yeah, there's there's kind of three topics. I wanted to discuss with you and your audience here That were three things we're working on in both TIA and ISO. So these are international Developments. So one is as you mentioned single pair Ethernet the other is resistance unbalance and then the third would be TCL and EL TCL so the resistance unbalance and TCL are measurements that we do on cabling and I think the Primary thing that I wanted to talk to you and your audience about is that we are doing something that I think is fairly unprecedented in standards, which is Making a measurement Retroactive so typically, you know, we come out with a new grade of cabling and I'll use cat eight as the latest example so we have cat eight cabling and with that we Included some new measurements resistance unbalance and TCL those two and I'll explain what those are but Because those were new measurements and it's a new category of cabling you you know it makes sense Okay, these are some things we need to do for this cabling But what you we've never done in the past is say, okay We're gonna take this resistance unbalance measurement and make it a requirement for existing Categories so it's like, you know, just cat six for example cat six has been defined for What 12 15 years just a lot longer and it is it is what it is Those are the specs that are in the book And in my mind, it's like well, you can't just go and change what it means to be cat six compliant But this this update to the 568.0 is essentially just that So the primary reason in the last time we talked we talked about PoE and what kind of got us together in that previous Yeah, heat conduction on PoE when I was you reached out 26 gauge patch cords and so, you know PoE being such a big interest One of the things on the cabling the vendor side is is so many customers are asking is my Cable Will it support high-power PoE, you know the old PoE 802.3 AF and AT which is like 15 and 25 watts, you know, that's not a lot of power but the new BT standard goes up to 90 watts and You want to know does their new cabling support that and what about their old cabling? so that's where we kind of got into this and The if anyone's messed or messed with installed You know a good cat six or cat six a cable, you know, the first thing you you notice is the conductor size is larger than your 5e Yeah, that's for higher signal frequencies for both insertion loss and resistance So the this resistance on balance measurement With this new standard when it when we it basically makes that measurement a requirement for 5e 6 6a and Cat 8 cabling so where this measurement was purely optional it's now a requirement and What that means is if you're installing and and using a certifier and certifying any new cabling that's cat 5e or above It's it needs to comply with resistance on balance specs in order to pass certification What that offers the user is it it ensures that that cabling will support high power poe Basically what it's doing. So whereas before it was an optional test now it becomes a requirement Now will this require firmware updates for cable certifiers or new versions of their devices? Great question. So there are two There's two I'm gonna say two and a half certifiers that can do this measurement So you cannot uh, it's a hardware measurement. So you can't add software to incorporate this feature Okay, we did and then let me explain at a high level what the measurement is So we've done Resistance or loop resistance. So you may have seen that measurement in a tester and that you know, if you have your two wires Maybe this is a good time for me to to share a screen and sketch what I'm talking about here so if you have two wires had be a cable And uh, the loop resistance measurement which you've had for a long time you have, you know, whoops so you've got, you know your two wires in a pair and For the case of resistance one's going to be plus ones minus. So we we measure the resistance going down And back as the name loop resistance might imply Uh for resistance unbalance if you take that same Pair of cable, there's two resistance unbalanced measurements. We do so one is The resistance unbalanced within the pair. So we measure this one conductor. So let's say And this top one and one should be solid one should be striped. Let's just say it's 20.0 Ohm, so we measure that conductor, but we also measure the second conductor by itself. So let's say it's 20 0.1 ohms and that would be okay Um, so we're allowed to have about two tenths of a difference. So you could have 20.2 Yeah, but if it was 20.3 Oops That would be That would be bad And the other measurement would be if we have let's say our orange pair and then we have our green pair We're going to measure the resistance. We're going to tie these two together So we're going to take that resistance and let's just I'll use nice round numbers again Let's say that's 20.0 ohms that the resistance of those two tied together And we'll tie the resistance of these two together and I'll just use the same numbers to keep it easy Let's say it's 20.2 ohms Okay, so this this one over here on the left is our unbalanced within a pair And this one over here Is our unbalanced between pairs so we and we do this for all four pairs in the cable So I can see where this at a higher wattage probably can cause some problems with devices if you Some of the pairs are going to be different. So I understand the test that makes complete sense Exactly, you're exactly right. So we we call this series the suite of tests DC are you DC resistance unbalanced and they're exactly right and that the The problem is heat build up in your power supplies So when the because there's a transformer and supplies it's taking that DC power and coupling it through to the cable um, and if that If the resistance of those cables of the pairs or the conductors within the pair is out of balance or is too different from another You get heat build up and it can be in the equipment So the power supplies themselves will get hotter Or the you know inside your switch you have each switch port has a little power supply that's going to get hotter and that can decrease the service life of the equipment Because the increased heat The other thing that can happen is you can actually get heat build up in the cable itself So along that length of the cable if the resistance is not balanced You will get heat in the cable. It will increase the temperature of the cable And uh, it's probably not too bad in Detroit But if you live in the south or you know, you're in a part of the world in the in the desert or something like that You've got cables up installed in the ceiling where it's, you know, 130 degrees or something in the summer and The cable also builds up heat from this resistance on balance that increases the attenuation In the wire itself. So you can have a situation where the Under poe again if you're using high power poe you can have a length of cabling that if it's cool Works, you know, let's say it's a hundred meters. It's a really long channel and you're running Or maybe it's even 40 40 meters And you're running 10 gig on it But if it's hot all of a sudden you start getting packet errors and you know drop frames and things like that and that can be the Because you're at the you're at the maximum length of that cabling You start to get heat build up in there the attenuation increases And you start getting, you know poor signal-to-noise ratio and dropping frames. So it affects both power delivery and Signal integrity, I guess it's probably the easiest way to put it Yeah, so I mean, it's definitely going to be really important for people that want to run these higher wattage options They're just going to have to do that so to speak. So how do you measure it? Um, you can Buy a new certifier That's a simple solution. That's an easy solution. The one you have doesn't support it You can buy a new certifier now we are So we have our current model and I'm not pitching products, but just to show you Is the land tech four is our current cable certifier, which has this built in, you know from the scratch We had this hardware built in because we knew we needed to do it But our previous product the land tech three, you know, it's if this test was optional It would be a different story, but it's mandatory so What we're actually going to be doing is developing new test heads That you could buy and add to the test or so the actual Test head itself is going to do the measurement this resistance on balance measurement and then communicate those results Through to the certifier. So it is it's a hardware upgrade Which would of course have a software update to go with it Yeah, that's a way you can get your older certifier To comply with this now not all companies do that. There's other certifiers that are Different color than us where The only option is to buy a new one. So but that it's you know, it's one of those things where The technology is moving on, you know poe is is an important thing and we need to ensure That it works and the cabling vendors Give these very long warranties on their systems. So it's just another Thing they need to do to ensure that it's going to deliver what it says it does under all installation and conditions and environments So that's uh, that's resistant some balance. I think, you know, we can I don't know how much more detail We need to go into it. Was the explanation clear as to what it does. Yeah, absolutely I understand it much better And I made sure because you started talking about before we started the recording I'm like, no, no, we got to explain it to tom because I I did not read up in detail on that I completely and I hope the audience those two have a pretty clear understanding of it and why it's important You know, it even makes me think by weird coincidence today a couple people are posting on twitter They were showing the um burnt out electrical electrical sockets, but the Contacts on some rg45s that looked burnt over time. They said hey, this poe seems to be overheating and You know people are speculating I can't visually explain it, but you have the The socket in the plug, right? Yeah, and that's arcing under load and actually in this in the poe specs Um, and the new standard we have specifications for the connectors that Under full power what so the arcing occurs when you break the connection So when you when you make the connection, there's no poe right because you when you hook it because it negotiates up to the standard It has to negotiate so it's a from a data or a power standpoint. It's dead But if it's under load and you just pull the plug You're going to get an arc and of course that carbon Will build up can build up. So some manufacturers Have and there's really going to be difficult for me to show this but where the you know, imagine my thumb is bent And i'm the the pin inside of the jack, okay, and here comes the plug What they'll do is sort of have a sacrificial surface there So let's say my fingertip is really the important part That's where the the data connection is and it connects there and then when you pull the plug The way they build it is that the the tip comes so the data parts Disconnected in the load and then you break that second part. So this this part here is not important It's sacrificial right design the contacts like that It's clever. Yeah to survive Something you're probably not going to find in the in the lowest budget of poe switches, but the higher end stuff No, yeah, the higher end switches and I guess where it's probably You know, yeah in your equipment you can't do anything about it But at least in the in the wall outlets and if you're disconnecting patch cords You know that that connector your your cabling system is going to survive Many many hundreds of disconnects under full power, but it's interesting that you said people are seeing that because You know, we look at it as well. We're going to put this in the spec and design for it But it's you know, it's going to happen, but people probably won't notice it So I'm really interested that you know, you have Yeah, it was a weird discussion because someone said hey, why does this happen? And it was little it looked like little marks on it that was The person said it was poe and I'm like that is interesting. Why is it doing that? So I mean if you search, I don't want to mention vendors, but you can see some of the vendors that that have designed these plugs like that They'll show they have pictures, you know, high magnification photos of of the contacts and the damage it occurs So it's something you can you know, people will and find that definitely see So the the other let's see the other thing I wanted to talk about and we can go pair ethernet You're hot on that one. That one just sounds really cool. Um, because There's less wires. Well, and I've also used in the past and probably unrelated so to speak, but the devices that take Old phone lines and for example to convert them to data lines It requires special devices at hn, but now this is going to come to more to the mainstream with this. It sounds like Yeah, so the the new standard is the if you're familiar or not familiar with the standards In the ti world, it's the 568.5 So that's the group of standards that encompasses single pair ethernet And it's pretty much as straightforward as it sounds. It is one pair of conductors inside of a cable jacket The primary use case for it is Sensors and my least favorite word in industry right now iot devices. So it's to support those But the advantage there's a couple advantages. So one is it's small So when you have and the one thing I forgot to mention to you before is so the cable is obviously small Because it's one pair inside a jacket But okay, there's a so if you have a small cable, but you go into an rj45 well So what what's the advantage? So we want to get more density on the equipment and the panels There's also a new connector that goes along with this which is a one pair connector and and there's There's about there's four different ones that you can use But one is a there's one type that's an unshielded connector used primarily for indoors and the other three are a sealed industrial type connector, but the what's really cool is the the primary one for unshielded indoor cabling It it looks just like an lc fiber connector and it's the same It's the same size and shape the body is literally an lc connector But instead of having the the one fiber ferrule right in the middle You've got I'll make it bigger you've got the You know the the business end of the connector and you have two kind of diagonal offset copper pins For your for the conductor of each year So it it looks like an lc obviously it's smaller than an rj45. So now you have small cable Small connectors so you can get a lot more high density cameling And this might be a neat idea. I can picture like a good low bandwidth use case would be like door access systems They don't need a lot of data. They do need power and this seems like a simplification to run those like that Yes access control environmental control systems in the industrial market, you know, you Imagine a bottling plant where they're bottling, you know soda or beer and all of those You know devices in that plant Have controls and they don't need four pairs. I mean it's it's very low bandwidth It's saying the command to open the door close the door. Yeah pump on turn the pump off, you know turn on the hVAC whatever it is So So there's a few different specs for this or two different specs. I shouldn't say a few As far as distance and bandwidth. So one is one gig at 40 meters Which at first doesn't sound impressive. But remember this is on one pair Yeah, not four pairs. And then the other one is 10 meg at one kilometer. So that's 3200 feet Uh, so quite quite a big distance That's and that's plenty for you know, so we deal with here in Detroit a lot of manufacturing companies and you know They do have large warehouses, but they just need so like you said some type of sensor data Is this machine running? What's the status? What how many rpms is it doing? Not high man? Exactly and imagine Especially i'm thinking things like big distribution centers where you've got people walking around with scan guns I mean, that's not a bunch of data, right? It's just scan the barcode and the system Yeah, so another lot of applications That we can see now I don't there's the Like a lot of the cases There's always one always proceeds the other either the equipment comes out before the standards Or in this case, we have the standard and the cabling, you know coming to market Before the equipment. So there's you know, we're waiting for the adoption to make so you're not you're not seeing like single-pair switches If you go online right now, you're not going to find a single-pair ethernet, right? Well, maybe in the industrial side because the the IEEE Standards have been out for a while to support this For automotive actually so the first people to really implement single-pair ethernet was the automotive industry Um, so that's kind of just been used. I don't want to speak too much You know out of it be too inaccurate But just to make it simple we took what was being used in automotive for single-pair and just adopted it to Building cabling and supporting longer distance. So the the automotive one they're using the the one gig 40 meter And again, that's for Cameras All all the sensors, you know all the all the stuff you have on your cars these days It's all you know, it's basically a big rolling network Oh, yeah, I've dabbled a little bit in car hacking and can boss and taking it apart. It's interesting for sure Yeah, I'm working with a company that makes big Earth moving and mining equipment and things like that and they are You know, they're deploying this in their vehicles because of all the cameras and sensors So imagine if you got a giant, you know, I don't even know how much away 50 ton Oh track You know in real Yeah, you don't want to you don't want to run over some guy You know, so they've got cameras all around these things and they're automated Uh, I'm getting off topic here, but it's cool. Like the next time I go up there. They promised me I could remotely control Like that excavator and earth mover or something. That's exciting I'm all over that And to bring us back on topic someone might be asking the question was single-pair It's in it. Well, you still got to get power to these sensors, but that's where single-pair poe essentially comes over Yeah, so we we don't call it poe. Uh, we call it poodle Po d l it's big p little o big d Big l so that's power over data line And it is it's like poe but over a single pair. So one conductor Is is positive on the other conductor's negative. So in your regular poe Like for example, your your orange pair will both be negative and your green pair will both be positive That's traditional poe but in poodle. It's one conductor is positive and the other's negative. So yeah, we've got we're gonna support sensors and Iot devices and give them power through the network. So it's um, it's really been it's probably one of the fastest Implementations I've seen normally standards organizations take forever and it's really uh, gosh, it's I think it's been two years that we've been working on it. Um Yeah, it was probably February of 2019 was the first Meeting we had a member of the standards meeting in Orlando and it was the one we You know really started getting serious about it. Okay, are we going to adopt? Single pair we're going to start working on it. What about connectors and you know, we had a bunch of Like it was really kind of cool. You had a lot of the connector manufacturer submitting designs And then passing around like 3d printed samples and we all voted on okay, which connector do we want to you know pick and standardize and move forward with so So it's cool. I'm excited to see how it goes obviously with testing, you know, being a tester equipment manufacturer There's going to be different tests. We do on it. So You know your test your typical certifier with with that would be a software upgrade But you do need a new adapter to connect to this. Yes, single-pair connector But as far as most testers are concerned, it should be a software update where with the new adapter you just say, okay, I'm going to test You know return loss insertion loss. We don't do next. We don't do crosstalk on it because it's just one pair But we do alien crosstalk. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that So alien crosstalk was a spec we worked on for cat 6a And not to dive down too much down that rabbit hole, but one of the Key issues with cat 6a and 10 well 10 gigs specifically Is high frequencies and you get crosstalk between the different cables in the bundle So that's alien crosstalk crosstalk between cables. So in single-pair ethernet. We also have concerns with alien crosstalk So you'll have you know one one pair That you're measuring with a tester, but you might also connect that tester because a tester can measure four pairs at a time So you might have one pair that's called the victim and three other ones you can measure at the same time That are at the distributor. So that's a new measurement. We'll probably see in in Single-pair ethernet testing. So we're working on that standard. We have TIA and ISO meetings coming up in February where we're going to hammer the rest of this stuff out and I think we're voting on draft two of it And TIA so it's getting pretty close. I would say it might be a finalized spec in Six, you know four to six months time and then a little round of voting. So probably by the fall um, maybe even the summer we might have a You know ratified spec for single-pair It is relatively fast It is I mean for us it it's a really uh quick push through and you know, we hope to see Manufacturers equipment manufacturers supporting it. Um, you know, so well Of course, you can run any application anything that you can run over a pair of wires So for your traditional access control system You know if you in industrial stuff if you can run it over one pair of cap three you can you know certainly run it over a pair and by the way that the um The frequency range so the categories of this It's still a little bit in flux, but 20 megahertz is is going to be the the low end of the frequency range up to Was it a hundred? I think it's like 20 and then 100 megahertz. I should know this. I just it escapes me right now So it's fairly low frequency And that's what helps us get the distance so that the one kilometer reach Is the lower frequency the 20 megahertz system And that's what gives you the 10 megabits per second So it's a lower frequency which lets us get more reach at a lower bit rate Oh So it's 20 and 40 or the two different bandwidths it runs at you said, uh, sorry 20 20 megahertz and 100 megahertz. Oh, okay So the 20 megahertz is the one kilometer 10 mega bit And the 100 megahertz is the one gig 40 meters So there's a lot of numbers here. So, uh, yeah, I should have I should have Written this down on a slide or something like that. American makes them. Well, and once the standard is published We'll absolutely know in writing. So yes. Yes. Yes, and I have I have a draft. It's you know what it's We're still I'm still coming off this Christmas break, you know. Yeah. Yeah back to work exactly The other thing I wanted to to talk about and this is something that comes up all the time our measurements called tcl and el tcl and I'm going to Write I'm going to share my screen again and write this down because this this is a fun one Because we talked about tcl what is el tcl. Yeah, so tcl am I sharing? Yes, this is um transverse conversion loss and the other is el tcl And that's equal level transverse Uh conversion Transfer loss Definitely a mouthful. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, and pardon my chicken scratch, but I'm a left-handed engineer. So, you know, that's How good These measurements are fundamentally a way to measure uh, how well the Twist I'm going to just make it really basic how well the In the consistency of the twist in your cable is So When we talk about twisting of the pairs in our cable um, I think we Generally know okay, that helps crosstalk it minimizes uh interference and so The real reason that we do that we twist the pairs Is not that it rejects noise um external noise Is what the twisting does is make sure that any noise that comes in Is the is the same on both conductors in a pair Uh the signaling that we use in ethernet is called differential signaling So, you know on a pair you have a plus and a minus and there's Equal and opposite voltages. So you'll have a pulse. It's, you know, plus five volts and minus five volts Um, so going back to my little sketch board here and just move Get out of the way, okay, so let's say you have a pair here And you have a plus and a minus and we'll say that there is a pulse on this line That's, you know, some amplitude plus and minus um, and we'll just call that plus 2.5 volts and minus 2.5 volts. Don't worry. I'm not going to go all crazy on you here The receiver at the end is a differential receiver. So it subtracts these two together. It doesn't add them Because if you add this plus two and a half and you add it to minus two and half you get zero You don't want zero pulse. So what you end up with is 2.5 minus a negative 2.5 and that equals plus Five volts. So that comes out to plus five. So it's a subtraction now. Here's the here's the magic part of it So let's say that you have this pulse coming down and you run it next to some equipment here That's generating bad, you know, emf or rfi Whatever you want to call it And it's and it's putting noise on the cable right here and let's just say that is a one volt noise spike So now your data pulse as it travels by that Spot right there if it's plus one volt then this is going to be plus 3.5 volts and this negative 2.5 is now going to be minus And I'll just color these in to make it clear minus 1.5. Okay You add the or you sorry add you subtract those together three and a half minus a negative one and a half is still five volts Ah, so you still get your five volt pulse at the end because this noise The noise here was imparted equally on both those conductors and The only way that works now is that the conductors are really tightly twisted. So when that when that Signal passes by that noise It's it's imparted equally on both of those Now if you have cable and I'll draw Just scoop this up a little bit Let's say you have cable where you know the This is a really bad drawing But the twist it's not twisted properly. It's not it's not twisted. Well, there's gaps between the conductors usually The cause of that's going to be Low cost cable that's not twisted very well Or you can get it where you know if you if you take a pair of wires and you And you can't get or bend it you'll see that they could separate the two conductors will separate from each other The tighter the twist the less they're going to separate. So let's say in the same example you have this, you know one volt Bad signal coming in here and it happens to hit a part of the cable where these pulses Are these the conductors are not Equal or not twisted tightly together and so maybe you know again just as a reminder we have We're bringing in plus two and a half And minus two and a half here But let's say we pass this point where the cable is split apart for some reason And and this is our plus one. So here we're going to get our Oh Plus 3.5 But if this guy is positioned such that maybe it doesn't get Much of that voltage impulse. Let's say let's say for whatever reason that it only gets a half a volt So this is not a big deal here, but that's going to make it Minus two volts and so now when you subtract them at the other end, you're going to end up with Five and a half volts That pulse coming out the other side now, that's an example where it's not too bad But you can have any you know, you can just start playing with these numbers here and you can get to a point where The voltage is getting so low that the receiver essentially can't pick it up So in this case, I drew here it was happened to be that the voltage went up Um, but I could just change the numbers a little bit and you can only go down the same problem occurs It's unbalanced out of spec So what tcl does a normal cable certifier Um Only measures Between pairs a normal cable certifier or any tester really doesn't uh Measure on a per conductor basis So what the tcl measurement is looking at? These two conductors Okay, and it's looking to see how Well, how consistent I'll say the twist rate is between those two conductors the term we use in the signaling is is that it's a differential to It's a differential mode measurement We're measuring the difference in these signals come relative to Each other in the same pair and that's a whole lot of gibberish. I know it sounds like it Versus this cable down here the tester and this tcl measurement would actually see The physical it can sort of measure the physical Separation of the pairs but doing it in an electrical manner. Is that Maybe that's probably the best expansion one It's measuring the physical consistency or separation of the pairs In an electrical manner. So that's all tcl is The the el tctl is essentially measuring it's like we have crosstalk and then we have Acrf which is crosstalk from the other end of the cable. So tcl Is going to just measure looking in Just at the one end of the cable El tctl is essentially saying we're going to transmit a signal From that end and we're going to measure So with tcl we're both transmitting On let me do this. Let's say we're transmitting on that guy and receiving on that guy With el tctl we're transmitting on this conductor and Receiving on the other conductor at the far end of the cable So that's all the difference between that the one that's a real mouthful All it's saying is that we're transmitting on one conductor at one end And listening on the other conductor at the other end Okay tcl is we're transmitting on one conductor at one end and listening on the other conductor at the same end So that's the difference in measurements And what it's going to do again is is help us Determine really how good the cable is twisted together. Now. Why is this important noise? So in commercial environments, it's probably not a huge deal You know, we generally don't see a lot of problems with people running Things next power sources and it used to be the old worry was keep your cabling away from your fluorescent light fixtures, you know It's not it's you know, we've got to be wary of that, but it's not a huge deal. Um But in the industrial environment and factories, so if you're dealing with customers that have That are putting stuff in plants, we have all these machines and robots and things like that making a lot of electrical and Emi and rfi noise. That's where this becomes particularly important Yeah, and those industrial plants are absolutely as noisy as possible when it comes to emf. Yes Yes, um, so this and this is something that it's it's kind of cool and I like it because You know for years, we've always had to explain That uh Cross talk is not a measurement of external noise Then I've you know, I tell people you you know, they'll say I've certified my cable and it passes But why is it when I try to run it? I'm getting, you know Data errors and drop frames and things like that and they'll say but it passes the test And if it's if the problem is coming from external noise, it's because The certification test um Is only looking at the The difference in pairs and and how that affects cross talk From one pair to another it doesn't have any relevance on external noise coming into the cable so this is really the first measurement that we've done with certifiers on cable that is a Fundamental measurement of how well the cable can reject external noise And it's hard to believe but up till now that hasn't been a A big concern for us. So i'm gonna stop sharing my screen right now Yeah, that I mean, it's interesting and like you said, there's some good strong points to do this with In the industrial applications and things like that and we've run into some weird Problems over time Especially because if you're familiar with the way bus bars work and things like that in some of the shops I mean you got to get we've seen cable laid right on top of the bus bars for like no No, this is because especially because the the way bus bar works industrial Some of those I think you've are all 480s. I mean there I don't I'm shocked that people just lay cable across them. Like that's a that's like Yeah, I don't want to even be by it That's something that makes your hair stand up a little bit. Just think about it Yeah, 120 hertz 240 might hurt a lot 480 you don't come back from exactly exactly the the The this also applies to single pair. So we was single power. We marry, you know, we have Actually, we do resist some balance with single pair as well. So single pair we have resets some balance and tcl Going into this new cabling new connectors. So it's really a whole kind of game changer as far as You know, it's the first time and Since I've been in the industry that we've had a sort of a whole new copper form factor With copper, we've just been trying to get more data down at using those four pairs Making the cable sticker and all that stuff and here's sort of a reverse Of let's make things nice and small so you can get, you know, bundles of cables where you might have these supporting, you know, a whole bunch of sensors or access control devices and shrinking that down and Standardizing it because in the access control and alarm, you know, again, all security systems. Yeah Let's initially need some standardized. Yeah, you got people using, you know, twist terminals and screw terminal blocks and all that kind of stuff So, you know, getting some formal connectors and things to really try to structure that that type of cabling environment is really what this new standard is focused at I like it All right, cool. So those were those were the three things I wanted to drop on you and just let you know what's coming down. There's Maybe next time we can talk about fiber because there's a whole bunch of new stuff with with fiber Yeah, that's I think that's definitely going to be an interesting talk So fiber coming up and letting us know how these standards are coming along will be some updates on that This is uh, it's been a fun deep dive in that I would say We're gonna again. We're having meetings coming up soon and we've been going through draft votes So a lot of this stuff should be The single pair one was probably going to be finalized like it said probably this fall for lucky, so you know, I would say keep your eyes out if you're just You know looking at your equipment suppliers and all that Just curious to see if people are Looking at implementing single pair. I think that it'll Realistically, it's going to be a couple years before it really gets some traction You know out in the field, but at least we want to make sure we have the infrastructure available to support it because you know You hate when a new technology comes out and the cabling the infrastructure and the rules don't exist to deploy it properly Yeah, well and it sounds like we can hang on to those cable certifiers maybe a little bit longer. Yes You don't have unless you're running the 90 watt poe then well Get a certified for that and the other the other thing is, you know, I think this is maybe the little tester I sent to you last time so The screen is is getting wiped out of my background. Yeah. Yep. That's what we have. Yeah, but something something like this is We'll tell you it's not a certifier, but it will it actually measures a live poe circuit Yes, and measures the voltage voltage drop tells you how much power you're actually getting Um So, you know that that's an easy way to do it. It's not a certifier, but it's a real-world test So yeah, it gives you and you can see some of the loss. We were actually Just doing some testing with that in a video I did about uh 10 gig and those little sfp plus adapters Yeah, I saw that video Yeah, so because they they create their own challenges and it started is because a lot of people don't realize They don't the sfp plus a rj45 adapter modules those transceivers don't necessarily run the full expected length of a cable, you know, it's interesting you mentioned that because For a new product that we're launching soon. I was just You know in the market for some sfp transceivers sfp plus 10 gig and I bought some fiber ones and um I happened to look at watch that video of yours pretty much the same day or the day before I was looking for copper ones and I didn't realize that that there's a lot that are only 30 meters. Yeah Instead of The full 40 meters or some of them will go even go farther, but are 100 meters Sorry, there's some that are 30 versus 100 and there's a pretty big price difference between those. Yeah I think almost At least double maybe triple. I was seeing Some of the yeah, you can pick up the the ones that are 30 meter that have been out for a little while I think some of those are in the 20 and 30 dollar range versus I think I paid like 32 bucks for one. Yeah. Yeah So it's uh, it was probably because I have a lot of people who you know build out small home labs And they probably wouldn't notice as much until they try to run it across further away Because a lot of times in more production environments. We're buying the switches. They have 10 gig native built into them because we It is a higher cost But you know occasion we have used those because it's a quick solution when you have some sfp ports. So yeah, yeah So when yeah when that when we get a little further down the road me I'll give you a holler back and see if we can talk about some of the fiber stuff. Absolutely I know I certainly have an audience for the fiber stuff as well. Um, that's a That's gonna be a long discussion for sure. There's a lot going into the different fiber standards. There is absolutely All right. Well, thanks and uh, I'll leave link to the previous video where we talk about the other cabling standards Because I kind of want to rewatch it myself because man, there was so many good details That's my go-to reply when people argue with me about cabling standards I'm like, oh, I might be wrong, but I don't think Dan's wrong. Yeah. Oh, I appreciate it. It's very kind All right. Take care. Thanks. 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