 Welcome back to CN Live's continuing coverage of Julian Assange's extradition hearing at the Old Bailey in London. This is day 12 and I'm Joe Laurier for CN Live. It was another day of medical testimony about psychology of the psychiatric condition of Julian Assange. But the hearing began with Edward Fitzgerald, a defense attorney, approaching the bench to give a piece of paper to Judge Vanessa Barraza. And this paper was, in fact, proof that Assange was charged inside the prison system for concealing a razor blade in his cell and that the charges were dropped. He wasn't given any additional time. But this proved that what the prosecution James Lewis yesterday was trying to say was false. Lewis was saying that Assange had implying strongly that Assange had planted this razor blade to be discovered so that he could along with two cords to build the case, the story that he's trying to commit suicide. In other words, Lewis is trying to portray Assange as a malingua that he was not suffering this type of severe depression that would lead to suicide and that it was all a setup. And the reason he said that is because Lewis is because there was no proof in the court, sorry, sorry, in the prison that anybody had actually found this razor. There was no documentation in the prison notes from that time. But indeed there was and Fitzgerald produced it to the court, whether that has a big influence on Barraza or not, of course, is something no one can determine. But in any case, that story was was sewn up by Mr. Fitzgerald with that proof that in fact Assange did have a razor blade there. It was discovered he was charged with it. It wasn't a made up story or set up as Lewis was implying. So the first witness today for the defense was Quinton Dealey and he is a psychologist at various places, including being a professor emeritus of psychiatry at Monash University in Melbourne. And he is in the National Autism Unit in the UK. Oh, no, I'm sorry, that's Paul Mullin. That's a big mistake I made. Paul Mullin did not appear today. He was supposed to have. So Quinton Dealey is only an honorary consultant psychiatrist in the National Autism Unit of the adult ADHD service and a behavioral genetics and autism assessment clinic in the UK. Mullin is the one at the University of Melbourne, excuse me for that mistake. So Dealey took the stand. He was physically in the courtroom and not as most witnesses have been testifying online and Fitzgerald began the questioning about him, about Dealey laying out that Assange has autism and Asperger's and that these are factors combined with depression that will lead to a high risk of suicide, particularly if extradition is imminent. It's building on the testimony yesterday of Dr. Michael Kopelman. On Tuesday, Lewis went over these prison notes. Assange had been periodically examined by psychiatrists and doctors at the prison. And in these prison notes, he noted that Assange was always alert, making great eye contact. He was trying to pull. He was doing fine. So where's all this story about him being mentally ill and thinking about suicide 100 times a day? In fact, Fitzgerald went over those notes to point that out. And this came up again today in testimony. And it was a key point was made by Fitzgerald to defense attorney with his witness, Dealey, in that even because the prison note says that no talk of suicide was came up in these interviews or these examinations doesn't mean that he wasn't thinking of it because he wasn't asked. In other words, if they didn't ask him at these interviews, are you thinking about suicide? Because Assange didn't voluntarily tell them that it wound up with the notes as he has no thoughts of suicide. So that's a key point that undermined Lewis's argument that he's never told any of the prison authorities that he was worried about suicide. Another thing that Dealey confirmed from the day before of Kaplman's testimony is that Assange didn't trust a lot of people at the prison and that he spoke only to Kaplman and to Dealey and few doctors examining him that he trusted. He did not want to let the prison authorities know that he had these thoughts of suicide. He thought it would lead to constant monitoring, suicide watch and perhaps isolation. So he was holding that close to the vest. So the issue of the prison notes became something that Lewis really pounded on on Tuesday that there's no evidence of suicide in there, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he wasn't in fact thinking on that. Now another thing Dealey said that his Asperger's syndrome and his autism led him to obsessive rumination about suicide, especially if he sent to the United States. So Lewis got a chance to cross-examine the defense witness, Dealey. And again, he tried to undermine his credentials by saying he was not a forensic psychiatrist. He was one who specializes in prisoners. And then he tried to show that how could Assange be... Now I find this really, I have to make this point because it's kind of ironic that Lewis, virtually every defense witness that he's cross-examined, he's begun by undermining, trying to undermine the credentials or the impartiality of the witness. And here's Lewis, who was not a psychiatrist, trying to challenge someone, a witness who is a psychiatrist, about whether someone has autism or not. I just find that quite ironic. If you turn the tables there, Lewis is the one who's not qualified. And he's pointing out that Assange is a man who had a TV chat show. He's written articles. He's made speeches. He's functioned as a person highly focused on various topics. He's highly intelligent. How could this person be autistic? And Dealey said in response that it's not uncommon for someone with a diagnosis of autism to be highly focused and communicative on subjects about which they have expertise. And that's when Assange really comes into his element, basically. That in social interactions with people, there's been a lot of awkwardness when I go into those details based on what we were asked yesterday. Because there was a lot again about Assange's history, his friends and his mother, what they had told this witness, Dealey, where it's discussed in detail. We won't go into that. But the important point is that if someone who was autistic is suddenly in a situation where he's talking in a structured form where he has a monologue where he could just go on and on, sort of like what I'm doing right now, to speak with an open floor that he could be highly focused and does not seem like someone who has any kind of mental issues whatsoever. But when he interacts socially then, this is when we see issues of autism and Asperger's. So I think that point was strongly made by Dealey in the cross-examination to show that that's just not true and that Mr. Lewis doesn't really know what he's talking about when it comes to autism. So Lewis, perhaps understanding this, became quite sarcastic. At one point he asked Dealey if Dealey was autistic, because he was not making direct eye contact with him during this cross-examination. He was looking at the ceiling. And Dealey, who was extremely cool under this fire, said that he thought he'd score very lowly on autism tests and that he explained he was studying the body language of people in the courtroom, including Judge Paretsa. And that's why his eyes were roving around the courtroom to take the entire scene in. But that was quite a moment there where Lewis retuously went after the witness to try to say, if you're not making eye contact with me, maybe you have autism. And then Lewis went after him as he has previous defense. Witness is saying, same thing basically, he said to many other witnesses, are you trying to help the court or are you advocating for a cause? So Lewis is trying to build the idea that every defense witness that's come up here is somehow in the tank for WikiLeaks, that they're somehow activists, that they're politically motivated themselves, which again is ironic because a main charge here is that the government is politically motivated in this prosecution. But Lewis is trying to say that the witnesses are part of advocating for the cause of Julian Assange and not at all trying to help the court as impartial expert witnesses. The court adjourned and in the afternoon we had the very first witness for the prosecution. There's only going to be two in this hearing and the first one appeared today and his name is Sina Fazel and he's a professor of forensic psychiatry at Oxford University. So clearly Lewis was bringing a, what he considers the only expert who's allowed or who knows how to or is qualified to speak about the psychiatry of a prisoner and that is a forensic psychiatrist. So he brought one, which he says is a world expert on that and he wanted to know whether he thought Assange had autism and as he was right, this Faisal, sorry Faisal, Dr. Faisal had in fact examined Julian Assange in January and he came away with the, his assessment was that he had traits of autism but he did not consider it a clear cut case. He also found Assange and that examination generated to be suffering from moderate depression, not the severe depression that the defense has been saying but here the timing is important because it was only a period where Assange was suffering from severe depression. That was November, December of 2019. This examination took place in January, we have to, where some medication had been given to Assange and he'd had some social visits or on the phone contact with family so that his situation had improved. So it's very key when we're talking about what period we're talking about Assange's level of depression. It's fluctuated, nobody's denying that in the court or contesting that, that this, that depression can fluctuate and it really depends on when someone is being examined to determine the level of his depression. Now Faisal who was of course the prosecution's witness for the prosecution said that he believed Assange was able to self-manage his risk so that it is not consistent with the notion that his mental condition is so severe that he can't resist suicide. Faisal is saying, yes he's depressed but not so depressed that he couldn't be able to control himself and not give in to the idea of suicide which Faisal pointed out millions of people have ideas of suicide. That's a far cry from someone who attempts it or succeeds. This was the first chance for Edward Fitzgerald to go on the cross-examination line and he had Faisal there on the stand. He got Faisal to agree that Assange had had a history of depression but it took Fitzgerald several attempts to get Faisal to agree that Assange was being held in solitary confinement in the US if he should be sent there and convicted that that would increase his risk of suicide. So Faisal asked if Dr. Dealey, the morning witness is right that Mr. Assange suffers from Asperger's would that increase the risk of suicide if he's extradited? Would you agree with that? And Faisal said it would be one factor. So it was very hard for Fitzgerald to get Faisal to admit that in fact the psychological condition of Julian Assange could lead to and be a factor for a high risk of suicide. Faisal did say that there was a risk but he did not say it was a high risk. Then we talked about the prison conditions. This has been a recurrent theme throughout this hearing. What will Assange face? The defense is trying to make a case, this is a political case, that his health should prevent extradition and that the prison conditions in the US should also be a factor that Beretson must consider particularly if he has mental health issues. So Fitzgerald was asking Faisal about what he knew about the ADX Supermax prison in Colorado and that's what everyone seems to agree is where Assange might very well end up if he should be convicted. And Faisal said that he was not familiar with it and Fitzgerald asked if he knew about the warden of that prison saying that this facility was hell and not fit for human habitation. This is the warden talking about the ADX in Colorado. Faisal was not familiar with that either so that led Fitzgerald to say so your ability to assist us about the conditions Assange faces limited. And he also asked me if he was familiar with federal prisons at all or the Alexandria prison where Assange would probably everyone agrees be held pre-trial if there's extradition and or if Faisal was aware of the suicide rates at ADX Colorado and he said no. And again Fitzgerald said so you really can assist us very much. So he again was undermining I have to say his cross-examination style is a lot more polite than James Lewis's but James Lewis got up to sorry to cross examine to re-examine sorry his witness after the cross-examination of Fitzgerald was over. And Lewis again trying to undermine that testimony about the conditions at ADX Colorado he read again from the affidavit of U.S. Assistant Attorney Gordon Cromberg of Alexandria who's written a 38-page or so affidavit that Lewis has repeatedly referred to as if it's an objective statement he's fond of saying of saying that the defense witnesses are impartial and here we have but he's relying on a government assistant attorney's affidavit as if he's impartial and making it worse Gordon Cromberg will not appear refuse to appear in this courtroom or or online by video link to be cross-examined by the defense so Cromberg's name is invoked virtually every day his evidence is put before the judge every day and the defense has no chance to question any of that face-to-face with Cromberg what Lewis read from Cromberg's affidavit to date for me was quite a moment of comic relief he described in the affidavit by Cromberg that he described the conditions of the adx colorado prison as a virtual country club he said there were educational programs books in the library the prisoners can subscribe to periodicals he said there were weekly arts and crafts special holiday programs prisoners were allowed five social visits per month and each cell in each cell had a 30 channel television which also played digital music there was bingo and crochet is this the place where assange's uh mental conditions could lead to more suicide before that those words got out of Lewis's mouth Fitzgerald objected and said that he wasn't talking about H block which is what the evidence is about that is where assange is likely to be held because the the the questioning by on cross-examination by Fitzgerald of the defense of the prosecution witness was all about solitary confinement and what that would do to the mental state of someone who's already has some issues and who is suicidal and the prosecution witness reluctantly agreed that that would not help obviously a solitary confine for someone who has mental issues and who is suicidal but Lewis tried to just tell the court that this is a country club prison I guess maybe one block is to his credit Faisal the prosecution witness said that it all depended on whether these programs were actually implemented or not and uh he didn't think that they necessarily would be so this day's um we're coming to an end here the judge uh was asked by Fitzgerald at the end if she could give them one month to please do their uh to prepare their final arguments or submissions and she refused basically she did not rule it out completely but she said don't depend on the idea you get a month this testimony is supposed to end the next Friday uh on October 2nd rather that's the Friday following this one and the defense Fitzgerald asked then for another whole month to prepare the closing argument and then to reconvene in Old Bailey sometime in early November and she did not like that idea whatsoever so they had a bit he Fitzgerald said that would cause massive problems for the defense she in turn proposed the following week in other words the week of October 5th and that really set Fitzgerald off because he is evidently unable to prepare a final argument yeah the week after the testimony ends the week of October 5th Lewis on his behalf said he suggested written submissions as a final arguments and uh Baraita seemed to perk up at that moment so that might be where she goes that these will be written testimony written final arguments Fitzgerald said it was important to have an oral argument for her to hear the case laid out from the defense's point of view my worry uh being in the media here is that we won't get to see these written arguments that they might be submitted and they might not be uh made available to the public as many of this defense testimony written testimony has not been made available to the public that would be an enormously uh bad situation in terms of people trying to cover this and for the public to understand what's going on at this trial so that decision will be made uh sometime after the defense is allowed to discuss with the Sange about the closing arguments and when they will be made this hearing resumes tomorrow on Thursday a little bit later at noon British uh uh written time and 5 a.m excuse me 5 a.m in the U.S. on the east coast so we'll be coming to you probably uh around the same time depending on how long it goes but we start earlier uh later to later tomorrow and hopefully we'll be back with you at 5 p.m British time for our report on Thursday once again I remind you to please go to patreon.com backslash cnlive to help us keep these videos online until tomorrow the straw laureate for cnlive Kathy