 My name is Sakai Suzuki. I come from Japan, which is a small island country in the northeast corner of Asia. And Asia is such a wide, wide place, vibrant, exciting, lots of things going on. And so that's why I call it a smaller part of Asia. And in Japan, I work in what's called venture philanthropy. So that's my day job where I support not-for-profit organizations and social enterprises. And I also have a role as a publisher of Stanford Social Innovation Review in Japan. And we have a booth, not Japan, but Stanford Social Innovation Review has a booth in City View, so please stop by when you have a chance. Now with that focus in Japan, I am very excited for today's panel, because this is an opportunity to hear about all that's going on in Asia. And Asia is a very wide place, vibrant and diverse. And so you're in for a treat today, hearing great stories from the leaders in different parts of Asia. And so I'd like to introduce each one of them and then ask them to give a short hello and greetings to you all. I'd like to start with Roshini at the end. She is a chief knowledge officer at Asia Venture Philanthropy Network, AVPN. She has been involved in not-for-profit sector and international development sector for over almost two decades, a little bit short. And she brings diverse knowledge and experiences from Asia. And so we're definitely very lucky to have Roshini with us. Roshini. Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here. I come from an even smaller island called Singapore. We're not even on the map. Just a little red dot. But we're well known for our economic development, financial progress, you know, the situation geographically in the middle of Asia. AVPN started off as Asia Venture Philanthropy Network because 12 years ago when we established, we were thinking about embedding the practice of venture philanthropy in Asia. Our founder has started something similar in Europe and wanted to see how it would take root in Asia. But we are now called AVPN because our 600 members actually do work across the spectrum, whether they're philanthropists, impact investors, whether they do blended finance or anything in between. They're all, 80% of them are based in Asia Pacific, 20% of them based outside, but actively investing into the region. My role as Sakai-san mentioned is in the knowledge field to provide the insights, share learnings, help people learn from each other within the AVPN network and community. So happy to be here. Thank you, Roshini. Next, I'd like to introduce Nami from Korea. She is a director at Impact Square where they do investments into social enterprises in Korea, but also in Cambodia and Vietnam as well. She's also a director at Impactology, which is a research institution that studies and evaluates social enterprises for their impact. They have done over 500 cases or so of impact measurements. And so she comes with extensive experience in impact measurement and evaluation. So Nami. Hi, I'm Sue, good to be here. So I'm from South Korea beside Japan. So you guys know the five of me. Yeah, Sakai introduction. Actually the Impact Square, maybe you guys don't know about my company. So we are an accelerator and impact investment company, the gross impact startup. And over the past 10 years, we have accelerated over 600 companies in South Korea and Vietnam and also the investment in 60 of those. After Impact ecosystem is growing so much more. We've been expanding into Vietnam and Indonesia and Cambodia, a blended finance model to accelerate an investment startup in Southeast Asia. And also, we are actually providing accelerating program in partnership with the support of female and young entrepreneurs and social who have been affected by COVID-19. Another partnership we have with the Korean government and Korean government to learn local impact ecosystem, local impact ecosystem support programs, specifically Daejeon and Jeonbuk Creative Innovation Center, who are coming here and who are participating in here this year so care with us. Thank you so much. Thank you. And next I'd like to introduce Mahesh, who has been the head of India Acumen. One of the oldest and well-renowned impact investment in supporting social enterprises around the world, wonderful organization, and Mahesh is leading the India operation there. As well as, you have the Acumen Academy as well, where you help social entrepreneurs grow and you have a strong followership there as well, supporting everyone to grow and to expand their business there. So Mahesh, it's an honor to have you on board here. Thank you so much. You've told a lot. So I would keep it very brief. Yeah, I'm probably on this panel probably having the lowest number of years in terms of working in the sector, only five. I mean, what I can talk about is also that I was an entrepreneur before that and an accidental one at that and social entrepreneur at that. So yeah, I seen it from the other side and now I'm trying to bring some of that in the work we do and very glad to be sitting on the shoulders of the work which has been done by many people in Acumen and happy to share some of the learning and also want to just point out it's about Asia and India is big in terms of numbers. A lot of numbers are very big. So I'm just conscious that I talk about it in the sense that what could be a larger learning for Asia in this particular discussion. Thanks. Thank you. And last but not least for sure, Doreen. She's the founder and CEO of IIX, Impact Investment Exchange. And I believe you started in 2008, 16 years ago? Yeah, 2009. 2009, yes. And it was started before the word impact investment really got around. Sanford Social Innovation Review put out an issue that had impact investment on the cover, but that was in 2011. And so long before that, she started out the impact investment exchange in Asia and really pioneered many fields. And she's been doing this for quite some years and has won many prizes and awards, but it's not stopping you. You're always leading ahead. So it's a pleasure to have you on board today. Thank you so much. Very kind introduction. So actually, I will share with you the interesting thing, which is when I see this community here, it is so wonderful to see all of you sort of, you know, interacting and supporting each other because I actually had my first company back in 1999, which was the predecessor of Etsy. And it was so difficult to have a company just doing good and also being profitable. Actually, Acumen was one company. I reached out to them that didn't give me money, but it's okay. I grew that. I know that it's okay. So I grew it and I sold it, but I always said one of the biggest learnings for me with One Nest, which was the first company back in New York, was the fact that it is actually extremely difficult as a woman and also as a woman of color to be able to bring in this very unique space of finance and development together. So fast forward. So, you know, I moved to Singapore and that's where I was actually doing my research. I was a professor at the National University of Singapore. And I was doing my research on how to measure impact. And that's where Rockefeller Foundation found me. And so I was actually one of the people who created Iris Impact Reporting Investment Standard. And they are the ones who invited me to Bellagio. So again, if you ever get an invitation to Bellagio, please go because I didn't know what it was. I ignored their email like four times until I found out what it was. And that's actually where we coined the term impact investing. So even the name, the impact investment change actually came from the fact that it was the goal that we're going to create a social stock exchange, which we did, and then creating the entire highway leading up to that social stock exchange. So in 14 years we created, I always say it's hard enough to create a company. We created an entire ecosystem. So with pit stops, you know, if you think about it, you know, we only created the cars, the road, and as well as all the, you know, stations to basically, you know, get the charge. So in 14 years, we have put out now close to $400 million in the market with the $100 million bond that's going out next week. That's adding to that. And the fact that we have done our work now in 54 countries in Asia, Pacific, Africa, and even actually in the United States. So very proud for the work that we have done and the fact that from the get go, even before it was fashionable, and we never follow fashion as you can completely see, like bright orange, whether you like it or not. The reality is for us, it always has been the women, underserved communities, and the climate has always been front and center. So what we want to share with you today is this whole new initiative that we have started. So we have introduced this asset class called the orange bond. If you were in the plenary this morning, you heard me say it. But along with that, also orange capital and then also orange seal. So it's the whole orange movement that's happening. So I hope if nothing else from my talk today and your discussions with you, you sign the pledge that we actually need this to be in the financial markets. Can we have the video please? We believe each one of us has the power to play a meaningful role in shaping the orange movement and bringing about the changes that our world desperately needs. The orange movement aims to mobilize 10 billion US dollars to empower 100 million women, girls, and gender minorities by 2030. Orange also symbolizes energy, enthusiasm, and a fresh start. To date, the movement has received over 75,000 pledges, mobilized 110 million US dollars in capital, and positively impacted over 500,000 lives. We put diversity, equity, and inclusion at the forefront of everything we do, ensuring that everyone gets a seat at the table. In the pursuit of progress, the movement is dedicated to unleashing the potential of orange capital. Through bonds, loans, funds, and grants, we're propelling three crucial domains forward, fostering prosperity and economic growth, nurturing peace and security, and fortifying planetary and climate resilience. Spending continents and cultures, the orange movement has found its place. From the global north to the rich tapestry of the global south, its roots run deep, connecting people across countries and regions in a powerful drive for transformation. From visionary strategy to impactful action, the orange movement ignites a transformative journey through these various initiatives. Nurturing regional orange alliances across pivotal markets, actualizing capital mobilization by launching and verifying orange bonds, sharing insights and knowledge with reports and training, and championing data transparency, building upon the power of IIX values, leveraging the shades of orange rating and the orange seal as revolutionary toolkits to elevate the voices and significance of women, girls, and gender minorities. You can be part of the ecosystem that builds an empowered gender-equal financial future. No matter who you are, we want you to join the movement. Everyone can take action today, or you can start by signing the Orange Pledge. The orange movement continues to light the path towards a more just and equitable world. Will you join the wave of change? Thank you very much. Wonderful. So I'd like to start the conversation here after this introduction to learn more about what's going on across Asia. So I would like to ask each person to give one or two very concrete, specific impact work that they have been doing. And let me start off with Doreen if you could share with us some work that you have been involved in. So I think what has happened in the last 14 years, I do feel that in Asia we have really taken the leadership in terms of various sectors. One being agriculture, the second one being clean energy and then education health and I would say, you know, blue, like the fisheries industry. So what we're seeing is there's now sort of a distinct, I would say, behavior in certain countries where the certain sectors, they're getting investments and also in terms of the certain growth patterns that we're seeing in terms of the enterprises. That's actually on the enterprise side. And then also on the investor side, we do see that they're now, and I'm very happy about it, that we do see that the investors when initially years would be, say, someone who is in Singapore who was fourth generation Indian, they will still only invest in India in the state that they're from. So we have been able to break that and make it much more in terms of if you are that fourth generation Indian, you can also still invest in the Philippines, right? So really being able to sort of break that barrier and making it much more kind of that interconnectivity with the countries. So I do feel there's a lot of capital coming in. There's a lot of fantastic companies. I would say one of the biggest things that we have seen is the fact that what the investors care about, and I think in Asia or elsewhere, is exits. And I think this has been one of the biggest things where we have been able to provide that exit through various kind of structures. But this has been a key thing in kind of growing that pool of money for more investors to come in. Very good. Thank you very much. I'd like to go to Mahesh next and ask about your work in India and your team's work in India, and the challenges that you have seen, success that you've seen, and also any changes or evolution, shifting in the approach that's been taken care, has been taken care in India. Yeah, three questions, I think. Okay. Yeah, I think first to start with, I think, I came and started doing investment before the word impact investment was coined, and it was a way of bringing philanthropic capital, taking very high risk in terms of going early stage and investing in innovative enterprises, which are solving problems of poverty and using the methods of market. And now it's almost 20 years, 20 plus, which is the work. I think what's been most important to note is that after that industry, if I could call it like that, has grown phenomenally if you use the measure of how much capital comes in. Because the whole, if I could call it the impact world is now basically on venture capital model. The biggest measurement is actually quite a bit about how much capital comes in. So if you go by that, some phenomenal amount of money has been moved in. And in last year itself, close to $7 billion have moved into India in terms of impact investment. I'm talking at the industry level, I'm not talking about a human level. And that's phenomenal on one hand, and the mainstreaming of that has also happened a lot, almost a ratio of one is to seven in terms of so many of them getting classified as I would call it impact. And when they say call it impact, I'm doing that with some caution. So there is a lot of money flowing in. At the same time, what is to be kept in mind is that a phenomenal amount of enterprises have grown and there is enterprise ecosystem is really booming. That's a very positive sign. However, what has to be also observed in terms of the challenges that for the level of money which is flown in. There are two questions, which I would call it as challenges. This kind of investment model, is this the only way to kind of address the problems of poverty? I think that's one, and that's one thing which we are thinking a lot about and looking at our next steps. And the second thing is the point about exit, which Doreen mentioned is that exits are very hard to come by for having said, having seen so much money coming in only around 10% recent study source where only 10% of investments have seen exit. I'm not talking of successful exit, I'm talking of seen exits. So that's a very, very small number. And that is because if we are solving problems of poverty and wanting to create impact, it requires time and you need patient capital and it takes time to build companies. I can say that as an entrepreneur before and it takes time to invest and get any meaningful return. I think any talk of trying to say that we can generate fast returns as well as create a lot of impact. I think one has to be cautious and careful and more thoughtful about the whole thing. These are two challenges. I would think a lot of money coming in is just the only model. And the second thing I would talk about is how is the whole ecosystem developing for the capital to get the circularity, which makes it better for the environment overall to become positive for the entrepreneurs and the investors who take early bets. These are two things. Within that, I think Acumen has punched far beyond its weight on the investment. As I said, $11 billion have come in and as per impact investors, councils, measurement data in India. The $11 billion investment has supposed to have directly impacted 600 million people as a set of common measures that we use in India. Within that, Acumen has done a tiny fraction of investment in India, which is just around $35 million, but we have impacted close to 90 million people out of that. We have been very clear and intentional about choosing impact first enterprises to invest. Thank you very much. I'd like to go to Nami. You probably have a different model as well and a different impact enterprises that you may have seen in Korea. So if you could speak about some examples. Actually, in the past five years ago, past five years, South Korea's impact inverse the ecosystem is really definitely growing. So a lot of an accelerator and investor are coming in today. So that's good in terms of scaling the impact ecosystem. But we have also the challenges to how to impact investment ecosystem as expanding and to improve the quality level. So the reason why the impact ecosystem is so expanding in Korea, the major role is on carbon too, actually. So I think a different to compare to the other Western countries is very focused on the private fundings, more focused on expanding and impact investments, but in contrast to Korea. Korea's government and very enthusiastically plays an important role in expanding impact investment ecosystem. The Korean government usually by establishing a bunch of funds. So the government have acted as a catalyst for impact investment in Korea. And then based on the bunch of funds supported by government funds, the private fundings like impact scale or other private funders coming together. So we are actually establishing a matching fund to expand impact and back investment ecosystem. Thank you very much. I'd like to ask Roshini to comment on the same, but really a bit focus on some of the trends in across Asia. As you've seen many organizations and if there any thoughts around ecosystems that's supporting that, that would be wonderful as well. Absolutely. I'm very happy to do so. I think you mentioned before, Sakai-san, that actually Asia is huge and very diverse economically in terms of infrastructure, in terms of development needs, in terms of policy environments. And we all know that we're very far away as a world from reaching the SDGs, right? The amount that we need globally is 4.2 trillion, which has basically doubled since COVID. And in Asia, we need 1.5 trillion annually in order to close this very basic gap, right? It's not even to give people a quality of life that we would like to, but just to close the basic gap, right? So that is the funding need. And because the levels of development across the region are so diverse, public funding alone can't do it. Foreign direct investment can't do it. And so as Doreen and Mahesh already said, there's a huge need for impact investing and there's proliferation of instruments. You've seen now the orange movement and the number of signatories and the quantum, and that just goes to show the level of interest and excitement in trying to support a solution, right? So you have a diversity of instruments today that you did not have 10 years ago when people thought about the investment first before the impact piece. Now you have a lot of impact first investors thinking about what is the instrument that suits the investment best. Mahesh mentioned patience and risk adjusted returns, and that's something that we are seeing a lot of investors speak about more and more being open to. It's not a quick fix-text solution. It is a long-term change and what we like to call a systems change that we are looking for and that obviously doesn't happen overnight. And that also is obviously something that regular financial investors typically are not engaged in because they don't have that time horizon, right? That's why it's usually public funding. But what we are seeing, and I think this is what you mentioned also, is that the governments are getting a bit more involved. So the policy environment is shifting so that as an impact investor, you can establish a fund that allows you to put the impact metric first. And therefore, there are a few regulations, corporate regulations that you have to abide by. And this is happening in not all markets in Asia. You see it in Indonesia, in Thailand. It's still in parliament, but we're slowly getting there. I think the other thing to note in this is that the appetite for learning has grown significantly. During COVID, we at AVPN, we introduced some programs, and we weren't the first. I mean, IAX has been running programs for some time. But when we introduced the programs for learning, they were impact investing fellowships. We had tremendous, tremendous number of applications, hundreds and hundreds of people across the world, looking for a community, looking for a network, looking to learn from the experts in the region. And that's a shift too, because it has been in the past that we learned from the US or from Europe. But here you see today how many experts we have on the panel, and these are the people that understand the Asian context, understand the local nuance. And from whom younger generations of impact investors are interested in learning from. The amount of wealth that can be deployed towards impact investing is tremendous, right? You know that in Asia we have the biggest wealth transfer anywhere in the world. That's partly because of our population, also a lot of new wealth in Asia. We also have a lot of family businesses that link their impact principles to their corporate portfolio. And that's where you can have tremendous transformation. So Asia is not monolith. You've heard about South Asia, you've heard about North Asia. You've heard a little bit about Southeast Asia from Doreen as well. But collectively I think the potential and the trajectory is only upward. Thank you very much. I believe so. They think the potential is very large. And what's going on on the ground in each of the countries in Asia is diverse and different. And so I'd like to focus a little bit on that. And Mahesh, I'd like to start with you. But you spoke about a lot of funding coming in. But it's coming in in different ways. And I imagine that you might see some differences or changes in the model that Ackerman is using now versus what it might use in the future. How would the financing model or Ackerman's approach change? How has it been? And how do you think it will change over time? Yeah, I think predominantly it's been very, if I could call it, it's been very unilateral and monolithic. It's been primarily the VC model, Silicon Valley based model. That's what has been replicated. And funds have come on top of that. And it's, if I could say, if I could broadly say from an impact investment standpoint, after U.S. in terms of the number of players and all that funds, I think it's highest perhaps is in India. It's that high. So and that's all in one model. It is chasing wherever there is a tech word along with whether it's agri-tech, et-tech, all the tech, tech, tech. So all of them get a lot of funding. That is, that's the predominant model. And I think one has to be cognizant and aware of that. That's what has attracted a lot of investments. And you can talk about every LPs, every development bank wants to put money into that with institutional returns, which they expect. That's the primary model. In some ways, the regulations in the country also have as the drug-driven this there is not easy. It's not so easy to do too many blended options. The debt route follows a totally different regulatory mechanism. The equity route follows a very different mechanism, which makes it very hard to do a lot of blended structures. There have been a lot of them coming up in the last few years, but it's still very fraught with danger and compliance issues. Debt market, for example, in impact is very low, extremely low compared to the equity side. It's just a fraction of it, for example. So that's the challenge in how the environment has been. In terms of argument, I think we, I would say that we've been following the same model. I wouldn't claim that we have been doing anything different in terms of the way we do this, but it's about where we invest and how we do. That's what we've been trying to do differently. But in our next phase, we are definitely thinking of a shift. And the shift is, we still have to use the same broad structure given the legal compliances in India. But within that, we are thinking of creating more possibility for perennial fund, what we call as a permanent capital vehicle, rather than a fixed tenure fund. The idea being that the investors in this fund get a very capped concessionary return, that's all. And the rest of the money actually goes back into keeping the work going. This is something we are working on. It's, I think, going to be perhaps one of the first of its kind. I should not say too early because it's still not launched. But I think we have got some traction. We've got some supporters on it. And that would mean that we would be able to see a slightly different model. Otherwise, yeah, I think predominant model has been, I would call it VC-based model. Doreen, I'd like to... Yeah. So, you know, the thing is, it's very interesting. So with Acumen, of course, you get your money, a big part of Acumen. I would say most of your money is coming from the West in terms of donations, right? So that was the whole thing when it got started. It's a lot of donation from the, you know, Jackie's network and a lot of donations where, again, those then you went out and quote-unquote invested. But the reality is it was money that you came in, got in for philanthropy, you know? So the thing is that's a great model if you can get that philanthropy money. So for the rest of us, we don't have that, right? So the reality is I think it is wonderful if you are, you know, if you are based in America, have your networks and have that money coming in and you're going out there and you're kind of saying, okay, we're going to invest it. For us, we actually have to figure out how to get funding to be actually get the investment and go and reinvest it. So a case in point, it's very interesting. Say the bonds we do, you know, we have just because we're speaking of India. IX operates across India, South Asia, Southeast Asia, Pacific and Africa. So in India alone, we have now put in probably around 150 million, okay, of investment. And it's very interesting because we actually had to do it, and we of course have done it through equity investments, but we also did it through our bond. It is, I feel like we have really, we know all the regulations now in terms of how to work with RBI and what it means, which is literally will make your hair go gray, in terms of sort of being able to make loans, you know, in that country. But the reality also is the fact that we, for those of us who don't have access to free money, we have to sort of be creative, you know, in terms of how to get that money and to be able to actually on lend it. And this is actually a very, very important distinction because I think the reality is for us, like again, you know, you mentioned us having the knowledge base in terms of the Institute. Our Institute, we had 9,000 people today to have gone through it. And a big part of that was to create the ecosystem to educate them. But you know what, also very simply, we had to pay our bills. So people paid for those courses, we could actually pay our bills. So I do think that while we are talking about all this, it's also very important for all of you, you know, given whatever you're thinking of doing, is the fact that it's very important to realize, are you going to get a source of free money, which I didn't get? Or are you going to get a source of someone is going to invest and how are you going to be creative about using that or investing? Because again, you have to figure out how to have a revenue model. And I always say this, because this is very important. I think this is something that is never talked about, but I think it's an important component of anything. You have to know how to sell and you have to know how to actually sell to actually bring something back. And I think for those of you, again, it's very funny, I see all my business school classmates, they all wanted to and still do, they all want to run funds. So I always say, if you're going to run a fund, please at least know how to sell something. You know, go and run a business first. So I do think all of these are as important for not just regular businesses, but also in our space. These are very important things and these are, you know, things to tackle, right? Yes, I think so. But I think we are seeing different models too. And so very good to hear. I just want to come on one thing. I just want to disabuse one notion that philanthropic capital is free money. It's not free money at all. What is it? I mean, so to that extent it's like, and it's very hard to source. And also we're not being blessed with millions and millions of philanthropic capital because philanthropic capital has its own dynamics and also they choose the regions where they want to be, etc. Given that there is also inverted come a lot of wealth which has been generated in India. Many of the philanthropists do not, for example, focus on India anymore. So the global network that you're talking about is not interested in India because they have to raise money. We have to raise money in India. So which is one of the reasons we are shifting now to form a fund structure, as I mentioned, in which we are thinking there will be returns. But the reason we are having a different type of return is not because it will still be self-sustaining. But the difference is going to be that it's mission focused. And that is the only part which we take as a continuity in terms of our learning that we do think some of these work, some of these businesses will take long time. Maybe not 15 years and 20 years as it took in the past because of technology, but it will still take 10, 12 years to show any visible good impact at scale. And it need to be patient. And that is what we think of in terms of creating any model of investment. Just want to kind of bring that out that if it was that easy to raise money, we would have been sitting on millions of dollars of funds also, yeah. I think we all have our challenges, but I think we're seeing evolution as well and changes as well. I wanted to go to Nami if you could tell us about the financing model that your team is using. Okay, absolutely. There are much in Korea, we don't have much more philanthropic capital, so we don't worry about that. I mentioned the people based on the government fund and so I did in cooperation fund and small scale impact investors' money and to expand the impact ecosystem. Considering impact investors and financing model, so we actually the most favorite equity investment which mirrors the broader Korea's impact investing ecosystem. Our preference for equity over loan or tax investment is largely because, number one, the size of impact investment, impact investors' investment is relatively modest as number two, because we actually prioritize nurturing very early stage social ventures and impact startup. I think actually the impact investors in Korea are almost thinking about agree that equity investment are particularly useful for us, allowing us to identify startup with potential for impact creation and also for us to be committed to long term and for us to build a business strategy model to maximize impact. So we think not only impact startup but also the accelerator, so in Korea we can work with the company we invest in accelerating as the company grows. Thank you very much. So very good variety that we're seeing here, traditional VC model going to perennial and then we have direct fundraising for impact investment. And in Korea we've seen equity type investment coming in from the government and from conglomerates, so quite a bit of change. Rashini, I'd like to hear your thoughts on how you see the overall trend across Asia in terms of funding source and how the shape that it might be going out. I think what we need to actually talk about is what is impact? How do you all define it and is it the same as how your investor defines it? And I think that is the biggest hurdle that a lot of enterprises face because measuring impact, demonstrating impact, aligning in terms of what you and your investor are looking for. Takes a lot of time and takes a lot of effort. The challenge is that while there has been a proliferation of frameworks and models for impact measurement, the consensus is only now emerging. So if you are going to an investor to say, you know, trust me, give me funding and I will feed whatever million children in two years on what are you basing your promise, right? What is the benchmark? You know, Doreen referred before to Iris and Iris Plus and that's important because it's about it creates benchmarks for different themes and different areas of work. But up till now, actually, most of the people creating those benchmarks, putting data towards those benchmarks live in the US or in Europe. There are very few Asian funds and Asian organizations that actually are willing to share data and talk about what is really achievable. And I think until we do that, you will continue to see that the quantum are small, that it's difficult to unlock capital, whether it's philanthropic or investment capital, because we're not really seeing the same North Star. I think that that's a continued struggle, right? We are sitting on a pot of gold, but we are unable to unlock it because we don't really know how to trust each other. We don't see the same goal. And I think that's worth discussing a little bit further today as well, because I think that that's something everybody needs to know. No, thank you very much for guiding the discussion. I think that's exactly what we wanted to get to next, which is about impact measurement and how to define it. In my daily work as a venture philanthropist, that is also one of the toughest things to do is to really talk about what is the impact, how we're going to measure it, how we're going to set it as a North Star to go after. So I'd like to turn to Doreen and ask you about when you speak with investors and when you work with different organizations, how do you speak about impact to make sure that there's a good common language and a common understanding? Right. Well, again, we have been of course doing this for a long, long, long time. So we also were the ones who kind of started off with this whole measurement on the investment side. And I think what we have now done very, very effectively, which has worked and which I shared in the morning, is we have been able to create that correlation with the fact that you're measuring impact, where again, we are measuring the primary, secondary and tertiary outcome, and we have indicators and we have all these data. So you have to understand, we have literally about 70, 80,000 points of data that we are dealing with. And what we are doing is we are not only being able to measure the impact of these companies, but we also can benchmark it. And what we are doing is very importantly showing the correlation of the deep impact that reduces the operational risk that also ensures that you're going to get the financial return. So we have been able to do this RRI, risk return and impact, and we've been able to kind of show it again with our own investments. So given our success and what we have now doing, so you'll hear kind of if you're in our mailing list that we are actually opening up our data. So we are basically unlocking this whole thing called values intelligence, where we are going to be now sharing all the benchmarking that you can do. You can go in and you can basically say, okay, clean energy in India compared to clean energy in the Philippines, and let's see how it's impacting the women. So it can actually show you all the data and be able to sort of benchmark and create the indices around it. And again, we need to have this and for us, it's very important that these are all based on the companies that we're working with who are actually financially viable and who are actually giving a financial return as well. So it's very, very important. And as a matter of fact with our bonds, which where we have this massive institutional investors who come in, we have Naveen, we have APG, MetLife and all that. And for them, they actually say this impact measurement for them is the gold standard. And this is one of the biggest reasons they feel so confident, the fact that this bond actually works because we never had any losses, not a single loss. And I feel that we need to be able to say that as a community and embrace that as a community, that deep impact actually means that it's going to reduce the risk. That's a holy grail. Unless and until we can wedge in there with this whole kind of equation of just a portfolio theory is just risk and return. Until we can wedge in there with impact, I think we'll still be having this conversation 10 years from now. So we need to be able to have that base of finance and basically say this is how this is part of that financial equation of that portfolio theory. Thank you, Teri. I'd like to go to Mahesh. We look at it at one is a very, very broad measure, which is a breadth of impact, which is very straightforward. And then we go into the second level, which is more the depth where we go into measuring more indicators which are about improvement in life and conditions. And then we actually have a third level, which is qualitative, which is required because and also because the portfolio is quite wide and it's not easy to equalize, which talks to the point which Roshni was mentioning that it's not easy to have one size that fits all. But we kind of do it at three level breadth is whatever it's touching depth of impact, which is level more and then qualitatively further to dig into that. And yeah, I think the main thing for us is we also keep looking at a poverty measure as to a percentage of people. The companies are able to touch a percentage, which where the product or service or solution touches them. So we have that measure as an indicator. We have it upfront from our investment start. We say that the company needs to at least serve and address X percentage of population below poverty line, which is global number, which we take and use that as a starting point that every company should address. So these are kind of ways we look at it. And also one thing is that due to the work we did on this with our work, which is called Lean Data, we actually spun it out as a separate enterprise called 60 decibels and 60 decibels is now an independent company because we think this is something which should be available to the sector and industry as a whole rather than internally to us. So once these measures got developed, actually the companies out there and the main thing 60 decibels the word is they do the impact is not based on what someone in the office thinks that we are impacting. It's more the voice of the customer. So we capture the voice of the customer. The whole thing is about capturing the voice of the customer, treating them as customers rather than beneficiaries and taking their input as a measure. I think that's the way we have gone about the whole thing. Thank you. That's a very important point. Thank you very much for that. And Nami, you've been doing a lot of impact measurements and evaluation. Any thoughts here? Yeah, I think really important to you guys mentioned that I would like to share two points of that. The first stage is really important to locally adopted version because a lot of people know that actually they also employ the globally-recognized method origin like IRIS plus IMP as a standard. But the multi-important things to apply the methodology to locally adopted version. And second things, we need to pursue impact investors and other stakeholders to really recognize the importance of the impact measurement. Because people just don't understand how it's really important to measuring the impact. So they impact the creative impact startup we invested, but that's just the basic level. So if you need money to evaluate the impact measurement which is social ventures or impact startup, but not only the people who need to pay the money for impact measurement in Korea too. Impact skills actually I have been conducting 500 cases for impact startup. So actually we are using the Koreanized IMP framework and also trying to apply the indicators and organizing the impact themes such as climate changes, water and job equation and recirculation and also the basic social service accessibility. We also been integrating technology to improve data collection. So the example we actually create the impact data platform so which is social ventures and can cycle report their data in relevant categories. So we also providing a verification services. So primarily in collaboration with impact investors and companies that they have received verification services often utilize in their IR and also when pursuing the larger investment opportunity. I think this is really good to verification services to improve transparency and accountability and reliable impact measurement reporting. Thank you very much. So that's more on getting help from the outside for verification measurement. And Mahesh you were mentioning more about listening to the customer's voice really to understand impact. I'd like to come back to Roshini for any comments on the impact measurements and evaluation if you have any that you'd like to add at this time. I have many but maybe in summary to say that it is paramount. It is very important to be investing in mechanisms like the ones that all of these speakers have mentioned so that you can demonstrate your impact over the long term because if you're talking about impact it is a long term strategy. It's not something that happens overnight. In Malaysia the Sovereign Wealth Fund Kazana National developed its own impact framework called Samarak and uses this framework for all its investments and encourages social enterprises and funds within the country to use the same one as well. And in this way they're developing a national impact measurement framework and initiative so that Malaysia can transform on the six areas that the government is most interested in kind of aligns with what you were saying. But you can't align with a global framework necessarily from the get go. But if you align either thematically or with a national framework that's already a good starting point. I'd like to go to questions from the floor but during the city had a quick comment. That's actually we made we created it from the Malaysian government. So so you're absolutely right. And I think that and I do feel that I'm really glad everyone talked about the transparency part because you know for us again we use technology to get the input from the women in the last mile and it is extremely important. And I do think that's one of the big reason why all this greenwashing happened because there was no at all you know any terms of verification. So that's it's good that it's happening in Asia at least. Yeah. Okay. I'd like to I'm told that we have a few minutes for any questions from the floor. If there is anyone who would like to ask a question to the panel or individually you're very welcome to do so. And if there are any questions I think we're good. Yes. Yes. Thank you so much for sharing. So when you share the newsletter will you also be sort of describing and defining how you decided to put it in those categories and how that sort of translates to economic value because I'm sure a lot of it is qualitative. I'm an architect. I'm an architect. And we work with marginalized to transform some of the same kind of the environment. Sorry if you're too much of a community design agency from Mumbai. So I'm very interested to hear about the impact and then the qualitative data. How does that translate into the quantity? Yeah. So what we do is if you think about it. So let's just take one example say clean cook stoves. Okay. Investment in clean cook stoves. So what will be a primary data for that that will capture is the fact that one can be the savings. Right. And the second can be on health side because they're not the women is not inhaling. You know the carbon monoxide from the you know kerosene stove. And of course in this case also the savings from not having kerosene. So that's and there's a whole bunch of others. So I think you can you know you can have these indicators in the primary. The secondary believe it or not it actually is even things like say safety because they don't have to go and collect firewood. Right. So what does that mean? So we actually look at it and put a measure on that. You know how do you actually look at that even looking at secondary impact in terms of say the family. Okay. So usually the girls are sent to pick this firewood. So you have that on the secondary outcome you have the family and then the secondary outcomes in the in that primary. Primary clients the beneficiaries life. And the third the tertiary impact in this case for this example actually would be the environment because and the community. So you're actually sort of we're looking at the trees that that are not being cut down. It's the carbon monoxide that's not going out in the air anymore. So we actually believe it or not we calculate all of that. So it's it's in each of these you we are collecting a lot of data. And then we are compiling them and we basically be use AI to push out five or six questions to these women in their own local language and sort of saying OK is this actually true. Are you actually making any savings is it true you're feeling better so you don't have to spend as much on medicine. Right. So this is if you think about it this actually quite robust you know how it's done.