 Mr. Max, always a blast having you here in the studio. I love being here with you guys. You know what I like about you is that you are, because when you look at the fitness, health, wellness space, and it sucks that I have to name all three of those or whatever, you see a lot of these camps and you are in the health, I would say health and wellness camp, but you're so science-based at the same time. And it is a little interesting to me how some people may take you, there are some people on social media try to put you in a box of like non-science. Yeah, pseudo-science guys. Which is so false because everything you say, everything you talk about, although it is wellness and health-backed, is always backed by science. One of the biggest things in the fitness space, they call themselves the science people, is like calories and macros, and that's the most important thing. You talk about a lot of the other stuff that's important, but I do wanna talk about how it makes you feel. Are you still getting beat up on social media? Do you still get people? How's it even possible? How can you not like you? Yeah, no, I had an experience the other day where I posted something, it was like a sponsored post. We all have to make a living, and I posted something where I like to think that I, and we can always improve at our craft and in our professions, but I like to think that I'm very balanced and fair and I don't make outlandish claims in my posts, no matter what I'm talking about. And I posted about a supplement that I've started experimenting with, and I talked about the science underlying the supplement, not making any claims about what the supplement could do for you, and not telling my audience to go out and buy it, just saying if you wanna learn more, you can go to this website. And somebody, a well-known figure, we'll say, in the fitness space came over and said, or somebody, no, somebody tagged this person, which is usually how it happened, somebody tagged, somebody left the tag and said, fact check please to this person, and they come over, and not just, they left like a personal, they said, well, if it's coming from Max, then there's probably a little truth in it, or something like that. That's what they said. And I was so taken aback by that, because we've never actually had a one-on-one interaction or anything like that, and I wasn't making any crazy claims in my post. So it just further proved to me that there is this divide that you just mentioned, Sal, in the fitness space, and it's what separates I think the rest of us who are out there trying to provide pragmatic and practical information out to the public. Not to say that that sponsored post was like the best example of me offering practical, health and wellness advice to my audience, but I think that we need to have room when we're talking about dietary and lifestyle interventions for the question marks that there are in science. And pragmatic philosophical approaches that ultimately are what guide people when they're making decisions at checkout. These are not always data-driven decisions that we make at the end of the day. And so I think to be bound by the evidence, to me underserves the public. Well, there's one example of kind of what you're talking about. And I love using this example because as a trainer, when I got into fitness, when you first become a trainer, you get certified, you read your books and then you pass your tests. And initially you start out and you look at your clients like this, like, okay, we're gonna get you to burn more calories, I'm gonna help you track your food, you're gonna follow this meal plan, and then you're gonna get all the results you want. That's all you gotta do. Just do what I tell you, you're gonna get all the results you want. Well, five years into it, you realize it's a terrible approach. This is not successful. Some people get results, but they all come back. Everybody gains the weight back. This is just a bad approach. So there's this one town, and I don't know where it was, but they passed a law where they required all the restaurants, including the fast food restaurants, to post the calories of all the meals that they offered. And they thought, because they thought if people were just informed, that would deter them from, you know, this was before they made it into a law, is this what you're talking about? No, this was in this town, they were experimenting with this law. That's a law now. And so they said, oh, if people are informed, then they'll eat less and it's calories. And this is gonna help people lose weight. So they did this. They put this up in these restaurants, and then they came back later on and found that people, the restaurants that posted the calories, people were actually eating more calories after they saw the calorie counts. And they thought, this doesn't make any sense. Why are people eating more now that they actually see displayed in front of them the calories associated with the meals that they're eating? Now as a coach, as a trainer, when I read this, I thought it's obvious, because I know, by this point, I had understood behavior, and I knew that rather than people going to the restaurant and saying, I could get the burger that's 800 calories or the salad that's 400 calories, I'll get the salad that'll save me 400 calories. Instead, this is what people do. Wow, the burger's only 400 more calories. I'll just get that. Because they had no idea, no concept, and it doesn't really mean much because 400 calories doesn't sound like that much. And if I can eat the thing that tastes better, that's what ended up happening. Now you got into this, not because you were trying to help people get ripped or aesthetic, but rather from a health perspective. Is that correct? Yeah, yeah, I mean, I was, you know, growing up, I was into bodybuilding and fitness, but my entry point, my on ramp into doing this professionally and publicly was the fact that I got to witness my mother getting ill and ultimately passing. And I think that it's, you know, it's obviously the greatest tragedy that I've ever experienced, but it's also a privilege in a way because it's showed me what really matters. And that to me is what sort of guides my philosophy and my approach to life. It's not, you know, getting 12 pack like shredded abs, you know, which I think is a great worthy goal for anybody that wants that, but that's not really what I think the public needs. You know, we look at data now suggesting that 12% of people have good metabolic health. And so to me, I think there's a real public health crisis that's going on. And I don't think that the way to solve that crisis is with like spreadsheets, you know, and macro counting and calorie counting and the like. I think that there's certainly a place for that. I think for people that are, that take their fitness really seriously and are trying to hit goals that are probably so far out of reach for your average person, but that they've choose to, you know, maybe go from 14% body fat to 11% body fat, you know, or 10% body fat. Like for that, you need a certain level of diligence, but that's not really the kind of audience that I'm necessarily trying to reach. I think that those people are very well suited by the content that you guys create, for example, you know? But I've sort of been honed by my experience with my mom. I've been very, very lucky in that I get to go on TV shows like the Dr. Oz Show, the Rachel Ray Show, where I get to speak to a really large audience. And I go on those shows which are taped in front of live audiences and I see the kinds of people sitting in the audiences live at those shows. And they're the sweetest people, but so many of them are struggling with problems related to their weight, you know? That so many of them are overweight, many of them are obese. And we know according to the data that by the year 2030, it's projected that one in two people are not just gonna be overweight, but obese. So I don't think that calorie counting really plays a role here, you know, or ought to play a role here. I think we need to know more about how foods affect our behavior, you know? With a little bit of knowledge and insight into how food affects our cravings and our satiety checkpoints, I think that really can move the needle in a big way on this crisis. Well, I think of a different analogy than the one that Sal gave. I think of like all these lost souls that you're talking about, the 88% of the population that are just don't have an idea or a clue. And it's like handing all of them a bunch of Tom-Toms or giving them like a, you know, your Google Maps or whatever. You just dated yourself on a Tom-Toms, did I? Yeah, Tom-Toms. Do they still live around? Garmin's and Tom-Toms are still around, Doug, right? Save me here. I have no idea. Why does the atom look like a Doug? James. It's a navigation device. You know what I mean? A mountaineer still is. No, I might not. But that's, to me, that's what it's like, right? So, you know, because it's not that that doesn't work, right? If you wanted to lose 30 pounds and you calculate your macros and you track and you weigh all your food, it's a very good approach to get there. Just like typing in the address to a location that you need to get and having navigation is gonna get there. But the reality of it, you have to learn, you're gonna, at one point, you need to learn good practices and behaviors and learn about, you know, just the basics and get a good grasp and understanding of how you should be taking care of your body. Otherwise, you're just kind of giving people the answers to the test. And that in itself, it becoming dependent on that all the time. Very similar to, and I speak to that one because this one is crazy for me. Like, I remember when I first realized that I have lost this sense of direction. As a young kid growing up before the Tom-Tom and the Garmin's came out, I was really good with knowing how to get around. And then I became so dependent on that that I can't even get around my little town without using it all the time. And so I think of that analogy when I think of clients that I would tell, you know, eat this many grams of protein, eat this many grams of carbohydrates, eat this many calories and hold them accountable to that. It's like, am I really teaching them how to be healthy and are they really going to do that long-term? That brings me to something too, because I've seen you talk about this on social media in Max and actually getting debates with people. The whole calorie worshipers, the macro worshipers, well, that's everything, the people in the fitness space that believe that that is the most and only important thing. They think that it's just that and they don't realize that there are other factors that can contribute to poor health, that other factors that don't contain calories. And something that they say a lot is that there are no good or bad foods. You know, food is food if you're eating too many calories, it's bad. If you're not, then it's fine. It's just chemicals and molecules. And I see you saying on your posts, like, no, there are foods that are bad, there are foods that are good. Like, tell me a little bit about that. Well, like, I mean, what is our definition of food? Is like, just something edible, something that we can put into our face holes and digest without killing ourselves. So by that definition, Play-Doh is food, right? Because Play-Doh is basically pure gluten and you can eat it. Gluten is like, obviously a protein-founded bread. You can eat paste. I definitely ate that as a case. But that statement that there's no such that like, food is food. To me, that's almost as infuriating as that meme that you always see on fitness accounts on social media that carbs don't make you fat. Protein doesn't make you fat. Fat doesn't make you fat. Eating too many calories makes you fat. I'm like, yeah, that's a mathematical fact, but that doesn't give me the advice. If I'm an overweight person, eating ad-liberatum ultra-processed foods day in and day out, that doesn't tell me anything, you know, practical about how to shed the pounds, shed the weight. What am I supposed to do? Go into my Google Docs, start a spreadsheet and start counting calories. I think people need to know about how foods affect their behavior. And in a time when 60% of the calories that we consume come from these ultra-processed foods, I think it's, first of all, it's completely anti-science to say that there's no such thing as a good and bad food. In an ad-liberatum feeding environment, there are good foods and there are bad foods. And the bad foods are the foods that drive you to overeat. These are the ultra-processed foods that by the time you've eaten them to satiety, you've already over consumed them. You know, foods like, oh wait, so let's go back up. So that's a very powerful statement. So some foods, when you eat them until you feel full, the way that they've been made or engineered, they've actually made you eat more calories than you need because what, they moved that bar, that bar of how you feel, that fullness. Yeah, because they're so not satiating, they're not satiating and they're highly calorie dense. And so there was this amazing study that was published in 2018. Kevin Hall is the lead researcher. He's a highly regarded obesity researcher. And what they found was that in an ad-liberatum feeding environment, when you give subjects ultra-processed foods to consume, they end up, to the same degree of satiety as they would on a minimally processed food diet, they eat about 500 excess calories per day. And if you stretch that out over the course of a week, that's a pound of weight gain every single week. And then when they, it was a crossover trial. So when they put those same subjects on a minimally processed food diet, they found that they actually came in at a calorie deficit, like naturally. And these were, again, ad-liberatum was so important about that, that term, what that means, it's a free eating environment. So they're able to eat as much as they want. They're able to eat to satiety, to satisfaction. And so I think that's really important because at the end of the day, like, you don't wanna have to rely on your willpower to reach your ideal body composition or your ideal metabolic health because willpower is a fleeting resource. It's a limited resource. It's a muscle that, for the most part, is fighting a losing battle in the context of the modern food environment. You also don't wanna have to pull out your scale and calculator every single time you're about to eat for the rest of your life, too. Not only that, but there's a huge margin of error on what we believe to be calories in and the calories in, calories out, portion of the equation, right? Like, nutrition facts labels are not always super accurate. Also, depending on the nature of the food itself, you're absorbing or not absorbing a significant portion of calories. For example, the USDA just published a study where they found that whole nuts, when you eat a handful of whole nuts, you're actually only absorbing about 70 to 80% of those calories, contrary to what was previously thought that you absorbed 100% of those calories. So if you're counting the calories of the nuts that you're eating, for example, that's not an accurate number because whole undigested particles of those nuts flow through you without being actually absorbed. But if you're looking at ultra-processed foods, for example, foods made of refined grain flour, or even some of these keto foods, you know? I'm not turning a blind eye to these ultra-processed keto or paleo-approved foods. You're absorbing 100% of the calories in those foods. Well, not only are you absorbing all of them, but FDA allows them to be manipulated by 30%. You know that? The labels can be up to 30% wrong. So of course, if they are marketing themselves as a health food, they're gonna lean on that direction. So if I'm trying to say low calorie, low carb, low fat, low sugar, whatever, they're gonna be pushing the boundaries on the percentage they can get away with. So if the FDA says, okay, you can get away with 30% up or down on these calories, I'm promoting myself as a health food, I'm obviously gonna put lower. And so yeah, not only are you gonna eat more, but you're also digesting and also getting in more calories than what it's even telling you. Yeah, yeah, and I understand completely the if it fits your macros fitness movement. Like, you know, for people who are fitness professionals, like you guys, for example, you know, that have really specific body goals and you're super diligent about tracking and you enjoy eating pizza or donuts or whatever, whatever that happens to be, then of course I understand that you can get that done. Like you can, that's one road up the mountain, right? I just don't see that as being a solution for people at large. And so when I see people with big profiles promoting this idea that all foods are the same, there's no such thing as a good and bad food. Fat doesn't make you fat, you know, carbs don't make you fat. You know, it's only calories that we need to be concerned about. To me, that's a public health disservice. Now in the context of normal calories, right? So let's say you're eating appropriately. Are there still things that tend to, because you use the term, you said something about people are metabolically, I don't remember what you say, say 12% of Americans have good metabolic health. Okay, now this is what's interesting to me. 12% of Americans have good metabolic health. That does not mean that 88% of Americans are overweight or obese, because it's actually a smaller number than that. That means that there's a good chunk of people who are a good body weight, but still have poor metabolic health. So they're eating adequate calories, but they're metabolically, they appear to be obese or unhealthy. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure you guys have had clients that were skinny fat, right? The medical term for that is normal weight, metabolically obese. So people there's a significant, I don't know the exact proportion, but there's a significant, small but significant proportion of people who are of normal weight, who, you know, when you look under the hood, you see that they have all kinds of, biomarkers suggestive of metabolic problems, whether it's high-fasting insulin, high-fasting glucose, chronically elevated insulin, chronically elevated blood sugar, low HDL, high LDL. Like there's all these things, there's all these numbers that you can look for that, provide the picture that forms the constellation that a physician would then use to diagnose metabolic syndrome, for example. But that is to say that looking in the mirror is not always the best litmus test for how you're doing internally. What are the foods that can contribute to that? Cause let's say you are eating good calories, what are foods that... Right, what's the theory is that if you are able to maintain a quote unquote healthy weight, but then you are, you know, metabolically you're hurting, what is probably causing that then? What's causing the metabolic dysregulation? I mean, it could be any number of things, it could be just, you know, eating all kinds of processed foods that are causing your insulin levels to stay up throughout the whole period of the day. It could be circadian disruption. It could be overexposure to environmental toxins, which play a role in metabolic health. I mean, there's evidence that exposure to BPA can actually alter insulin responses in the body. BPA, bisphenol A, it's a plasticizing compound that you're exposed to when you, you know, heat food and plastic, for example, or when you touch store register receipts, there is evidence that that, you know, in a dose that is a reasonable dose to, you know, to expect a human to be exposed to today, that that can affect the way the hormone insulin functions in the body. And insulin is, you know, it's obviously a fat storage hormone, but it's also important in metabolism and, you know, for metabolic health. Well, how much do like micronutrients play a factor in obesity as well? I think that micronutrients are super important. You know, when it comes to fat loss, fat gain, I think it's probably, you're probably better suited looking at the big picture, you know, the bigger picture, macronutrients, but, you know, minerals like magnesium, magnesium is super important for metabolic health. I mean, magnesium is a cofactor for hundreds of enzymatic reactions in the body and some of those are involved in energy production, like ATP production. So, you know, I think obviously being nutritionally replete is important as well. You know, it's interesting about what you're saying is that I would even, I would imagine that somebody who was of normal body weight, but metabolically unhealthy, right? So they have all the markers that you might see in someone who's obese, but they're normal weight. That sounds like a very dangerous, it could be a dangerous situation because they might not even be prompted to get checked out. They may think that they're perfectly fine because they look fine, you know, in the mirror and that could be a problem. What about macronutrients? Like, we'll talk about carbohydrates for a second, but sugar specifically, do sugars have worse effects on the body generally because we hear a lot of debate around that? Like, you hear the sugar is bad for you, it's evil, and then we hear the other side that says sugar's fine so long as your calories aren't high. Like, what's the deal with that? Well, added sugar for one is not satiating at all, right? So it provides no satiety benefit, and yet it's empty calories. And as I mentioned, we now live in a world where so many of us are struggling with our ever-expanding waistlines. And also, to Justin's point, 90% of us are deficient in at least one essential nutrient. So to me, in an environment where we're overfed and undernourished, you know, like being an apologist for added sugar to me is again, another public health disservice, which I see all the time in the fitness space. Is a little bit of added sugar bad if you're working out all the time and you're super active, you're getting your 10,000 steps a day or whatever the recommendation is? No, I don't think that it's that huge of a deal. But if you have, you know, glucose homeostasis problems, if you have glucose tolerance issues, then added sugar and really starchy high carbohydrate foods I think can be very problematic because your blood sugar then will become elevated higher and stay elevated longer than it will for somebody who has normal glucose regulation. What are some of the best satiety producing macronutrients or foods? Like what have you seen in terms of things that people can eat that'll help them naturally want to eat less? I mean, I think like preaching to the choir a little bit but protein is, you know, by and large, I think it's the most important macronutrient to be aware of, to know what a powerful tool is protein is for satiating your hunger. It's so important, it's the most satiating macronutrient. When you under eat protein, you're gonna eat more carbs and fat and, you know, when you both in the short term and the long term protein is the most satiating. So when I'm, you know, when I have like a hunger pang, I reach for high protein foods. And I also know that it's a lot more difficult for me to pump the brakes when I'm snacking on foods that are low in protein and high in carbs and fat. So these are, I mean, typical junk foods, right? Like chips, paleo puffs, Doritos, whatever you wanna call them. Like low protein foods tend to be junk foods. Junk foods tend to be low protein foods. And I think that there's a reason why they are so hyper palatable, why they're so addictive and why ultimately they underlie the obesity epidemic. I think, so I think reaching for protein, that's major. And then also there are non dietary things as well that I think we need to be talking about, you know, in the same breath, like sleep. The fact that so many of us are under slept these days, you know, when you're under slept, you tend to crave more junk food the next day. What's the reason behind that? Is that because it produces more of the feel good chemicals cause you feel crappy from not getting good sleep. So you eat the hyper palatable stuff to get your serotonin levels. What are the, what are the theories behind that? Well, I think there's an endocrine component to it. So, you know, when you're under slept, just after on one night of poor sleep, you're basically pre-diabetic the next day. So it affects your, how you're, you know, the hormone insulin functions. But I think it also affects leptin and ghrelin, you know, and there's a lot of these hormones are influenced by circadian rhythms. And when you are under slept, I mean, sleep is the master hormonal regulator. And so aside from that, I think there's a neuro biological component as well. So when you under sleep, there's less activity in the front part of the brain called the prefrontal cortex, which is sort of the home of decision making and executive function. And so when you are under slept, you basically have a brain that's operating more primarily and it wants things that it's, that are gonna comfort it, that are more essential to survival. So essentially sugar and, you know, hyper palatable foods, fatty foods as well. Emotional regulation becomes a lot more difficult when you're under slept. And that's that sense of willpower, you know? Like I think there was an experience that I had very early on. It doesn't really have anything to do with food, but I went through a breakup. And I had this subjective experience where I realized I learned that on days that I was under slept, it was a lot more difficult for me to deal with the emotions that I was feeling. You know, when I went through, when I was going through that breakup. And so I think the same thing happens with food. It's just like when we're under slept, you know, our hormones are all dysregulated and our brain just doesn't, it's not like working in our, you know, that subconscious hunger just isn't working in our favor. It's working against us. Well, now you're moving in the direction that I like to talk about. Right now we've been talking a lot about, you know, calories and macros and micronutrients, but really to me, the stuff that really made the difference with clients was teaching them the behaviors. And that's the stuff that I feel like the fitness space, the bodybuilder. It's the void of it. Yeah, we just don't, we don't talk about that. It's like, okay, we can weigh and measure your food all day long. But one of the things I remember seeing happen when I was competing was I was blown away. I remember telling these guys when I got into it, we were all hanging out together and we, and I was in the middle of competing in men's physique. And I remember coming back and telling them, I said, dude, I have seen more eating disorders in this competitive bodybuilding world than I had previously seen in, you know, almost two decades of training average clients. And that blew my mind because we look at their bodies, right? We look at them and they look amazing. They're on covers of magazines. Everyone's following them, taking their advice. But the reality is it's the relationship, it promotes this, this binge and restrict behavior. And forget that the science of the calories and the measuring and the weighing and the macro micro, it's like when you tell somebody and you have them restrict like that and they are calculating their weighing and they're staying so dialed in, you create this behavior of I can't, I can't have this. I can't have this. I can't, this is bad. This is what, and then you finally break, which everybody eventually does. And a lot of times, and when you see it in a competitive world, when they break, it's after they did their show. They've disciplined themselves for two months, three months, maybe even six months long to get to that goal. And then they just cut loose. And I'd see guys and girls put 20, 30 pounds on in like four days. I mean, that's just insane to me. And that's obviously an example of like an exaggerated version of what most people go through. But I think they go through a similar thing of going through this, okay, I'm on a diet now. It's New Year's resolution. Let me start weighing my food. I'm gonna have these salads. I'm gonna exercise every single day. And all it does is it promotes this binge restrict behavior. And I think that is the more important conversation than even getting down to this calorie and macro talk. Oh, totally. You talked about protein max. I'll give you an example of what Adam's talking about. So I figured this out later on as a trainer, but I would tell clients because protein's very satiating, right? I would tell clients, hit your protein goals. Don't worry about anything else. And naturally, they would eat less. Naturally, just because it, because I know it was so satiety producing. So I'd say, whenever you have your meal, eat your protein first in your meal. So if your goal is 25 grams of protein per meal or whatever, eat that first, then eat the rest. And then, and they would just naturally lose weight. And they thought, oh, the protein's making me lose weight. No, it's because of the, it produces more satiety. Now that advice, because you are in the wellness space, sometimes that does put you at odds with the vegan and vegetarians, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. I like, people from all these different factions like, like to come out and attack me. What's the deal with that? I don't care. I'm just trying, you know, like bring it on. It's because you're handsome, bro. I'm just, I mean. You're saying that's working against you. Trying to keep up with the looks of you guys. No, I mean, yeah, protein I think is incredibly important and I appreciate it and I value it. And I think that, you know, this whole, this whole low protein diet cult to me is something that I think is another thing that's harming people. First of all, we don't know like the results of taking somebody who lives in a first world country who's exposed to, you know, the modern, the standard American diet and then is told to eat a low protein diet and then eats a low protein version of the standard American diet. I mean, to me, that just sounds like a recipe for disaster. And there's really no good evidence that low protein diets promote longevity or health. In fact, people over 65 who eat higher protein have greater longevity and reduced risk for cancer. So, so I don't, I think that that's just a, yeah, not smart. Also, there's this concept of anabolic resistance which I'm sure that you guys can speak to, but as we get older, we probably need to consume more protein to maintain our muscle mass. So I think that that's, these are non-trivial points. Not to mention when I look, when we look back at our clients, it's, it was the number one macronutrient that I had to address with all clients, normal people. The only people I ever had to say eat less protein to were some bodybuilding fanatics that I adopted. Like if I got you and you had been bodybuilding for three years and for some reason eating, you know, three grams of protein for every pound of body weight, I would end up telling you to scale back because that's why you're having a hard time shitting and you had all those issues with your digestion because of how much you're eating. Everybody else, every other male and female that just came in for overall health or losing weight or wanting to put a little bit of muscle on or work on their mobility, every one of their diets that I assessed all under consumed protein. It's for sure one of the most neglected. It's hard to do. There's this researcher, Bill Campbell, who I follow on social media. He's like pretty well known in the bodybuilding fitness space. He's like a body composition scientist. And he posted this, he did this like little study with his students where he asked them all to try to consume one gram of protein per pound of body weight. And he said that only about half of them could adhere to it because it's just so damn hard to do. It's so hard to do because it's so satiating. Yeah, it is. And along those lines with protein, let's say I have two pieces of meat, equal calories, equal grams of proteins, macros, all that stuff. One is, you know, what people might say in your space, especially high quality. Grass fed, the animal was in good conditions. The other one, factory produced, grain fed. What are the differences? They got same calories, same protein, same fats. Are there any differences? With a grass fed with a more proper, yeah. I mean, I think that, I think, you know, obviously in an ideal world, we're all consuming 100% grass fed beef, pasture raised eggs and free range chicken, you know, things like that. But I also, and this is where like the paleo people will come at me. I also feel, and I've become a lot more moderate in my stands over time because, you know, I truly believe that like, if you live in a part of the country, like a food desert where you don't have access to 100% grass fed beef, for example, is eating grain fed beef bad for you? And my answer to that is no, I think that it's a much better option even than, you know, boxed mac and cheese, which is I think, you know, the kind of food that, you know, it basically typifies ultra processed foods, foods which many people are eating, you know, for all meals of the day. And so, you know, regular, as much as I would never get behind and endorse factory farmed meat, I just can't do that from an ethical standpoint because, you know, it's so cruel to the animals. Like, it's still one of the most nutrient dense foods available to most people. And thank, you know, we love to talk about the, you know, the harms of modern food production and the modern food environment, right? But like the food system is also, it's pretty great in that anybody anywhere can access beef, you know, and chicken and things like that, or eggs, you know, conventional eggs. Like I, you know, I don't buy conventional eggs because I just know that, you know, they've, they just how they're produced, you know, like the chicken has been reduced to this egg laying machine and they're kept in these awful crates and whatever. But that being said, like even a conventional egg is still an amazingly nutrient dense food. Now, but there are some small differences though, right? Like if I had a pastor, you know, raised egg versus a conventional egg, what would I see nutrient wise difference? Well, you can always tell the, how healthy the chicken was by the robustness of the shell of the egg. So if you take a conventional egg, you'll notice that the shells are very, very thin and brittle. Oh, interesting. Yeah, whereas a pastor raised egg, that the shells are really hard to crack. This is like no joke. There's just, they have higher mineral density, like in the egg shells. You can also tell from the color of the yolk, a pastured egg is gonna have like a much darker, almost orangeish hue to the yolk and that's due to the higher presence of carotenoids. Carotenoids are plant pigments, which basically accumulate in the yolk and they protect neural tissue. So it's actually interesting if you consider the fact that an embryo, in an embryo, the nervous system is the first system to assemble and the brain is obviously a part of the major component of the central nervous system. That an egg yolk literally contains everything that nature has deemed important to grow a healthy brain. And so it's no wonder then that egg yolks are full of cholesterol. We know that the brain is full of cholesterol. Choline, choline, omega-3 fatty acids like DHA. But then also carotenoids, carotenoids which are found in plants. This is another reason why I don't think I could ever fully get behind the carnivore diet because carotenoids are plant pigments and we know that they protect neural tissue and they were first identified because we can see them in the eye. They protect the eyes. The eyes are basically just an extension of your brain and contain neural tissue. But we now know that these same compounds accumulate in the brain where they protect brain cells from oxidative stress. They help maintain cognitive function as we age and they can actually even boost your cognitive function when you're young and healthy. So that's why I think looking at egg yolks and making sure that they're really dark and deeply orange in hue is a sign of a healthy diet. I can't eat conventional eggs anymore. If I crack a conventional egg next to a pastor, it just looks pale and anemic. And anemic, it does. Now, the differences in these nutrients on egg versus egg, are they big or are they small? Normally smaller. Yeah, I would say that they're, I mean I would say that they're significant. I believe it's something like 11 times the amount of DHA in a bastard egg compared to. Yeah, in absolute terms is the amount of DHA in an egg gonna be comparable to what you get in just one piece of wild salmon, probably pretty small in comparison. But yeah, I think that there are big nutritional differences. Same with grass-fed beef versus grain-fed beef. But we can't let, what's the term? You can't let perfect be the enemy of the good. You can't let perfect be the enemy of the good, right? So even a conventional egg is I think a great nutritional resource for people, right? Now, we've had, well, me personally, I've had a lot of clients that are just fixated on novelty and that's something that I've had to help kind of coach them through in terms of trying to get satiated. So novelty is one of those things. They're always trying to seek what tastes the best and that's the entire focus of when they're eating. So how do you address that? We're so spoiled humans. Like we always want like newer flavor. There's that famous Jerry Seinfeld quote, right? Like about men when they're watching TV, like men don't care what's on TV. They only wanna know what else is on. Right, you know, it's the same thing about, it's the same way that we approach our diets. But then you look at like an animal, like a cat or whatever, they're content to eat the same thing day in and day out. But no, I think novelty is important, switch things up, keep things interesting. That's where I think learning how to cook is really valuable and learning how to take like simple ingredients and turn them into something transcendent. I really value like the way Mediterranean style cooking kind of takes that approach, same with Japanese cooking. Like there's endless novelty in Mediterranean and Japanese cuisine, but they use basically just a handful of simple ingredients. I just read an article that said that the Mediterranean, like when you're comparing like quote unquote diets that the Mediterranean diet across the board seems to rank consistently the highest or among the best in terms of health. Is that, are you familiar with that article? Yeah, the Mediterranean diet. Yeah, I mean, so it's always cited as being one of the most protective and most longevity promoting diets out there. But there are other dietary patterns that are equally healthy, like the Japanese dietary pattern. We just haven't studied it as much. What are the characteristics of the Mediterranean diet? Like what's in there that you think is promoting some of these health benefits? I think the preponderance of, you know, minimally processed food, no unhealthy cooking oils. You know, like if you go to a true Mediterranean kitchen, you won't find any canola oil. You won't find any corn oil, soybean oil, none of that garbage. They're cooking primarily with extra virgin olive oil and they also use extra virgin olive oil as a sauce. I'm a huge extra virgin olive oil fan. And sometimes you get from the vegan community that all oil is bad, including olive oil, which is a complete, like... I never heard this. Vegans are saying that? Yeah, they have anti-oil. There's like this sect. It's like a sect of veganism of the hardcore. They're like, you know, I like being vegan. It's not extreme enough. I need to get more extreme. Yes, exactly. They're anti-oil. And yeah, so they like, they've banished all kinds of like liquid oils, including extra virgin olive oil, which to me makes no sense. It's also not a science-based, like that right there is a very blatant divergence from the science to say that extra virgin olive oil is not good for you. What's the reasoning behind this? Behind the no oil? Yeah. I think their claim is that it damages the endothelium or endothelial function, which is how basically your arteries respond to environmental pressures and are able to expand and contract. You know, whenever you eat fat, it's gonna fill your blood with triglycerides. You're gonna see, you know, you would be able to see that on a blood draw. You know, I think most recently that was illustrated in the, you know, documentary and I'm using air quotes, game changers. But propaganda? Yeah. But that's totally normal. It's the same thing like when you eat something that's, we know that chronically elevated blood sugar is not good for you. Does that mean that the occasional blood sugar spike is also not good for you? No, not necessarily. Because in a normal, metabolically healthy body, you, your body brings the blood sugar right back down, right? So that's the thing with post-prandial, post-prandial elevation in triglycerides. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. So I think that that, that sect has sort of, it's been a bit of a, a permutation from, or like, you know, it's sort of been this like, extrapolation from, you know, the fact that, well, meat is high in fat, so we have to be against high fat diets. And if we're gonna be against high fat diets, then we have to be against pure oil. And so, but to me, none of it makes any sense. That's how ISIS was created. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, it basically is like the ISIS of the plant-based community. These are like carbs only. Yeah, yeah. Everything else is bad. It seems to me, because when you look at oils, and you talked about the, you know, the bad oils, right, canola, and some of those, those processed vegetables, it seems to me like the more natural, I hate using that term because now people come after me, but the more natural something is, the, it tends to be more healthy. And when you look at something like olive oil, in order to get olive oil, all you literally need to do is take an olive and squeeze it. You could actually squeeze it with your fingers and produce oil. You can't do that with like canola oil or corn oil, right? You ever try and get some corn and squeeze it and see if you get any oil? Yeah, good luck. I milk it. It's okay. Milk the corn for me. That sounds disgusting. I don't know. So, okay, so what's the deal with these unhealthy fats for oils? What are they, and then what makes them unhealthier? What do they do in the body? Yeah, so grain and seed oils are extracted from grains, as you mentioned, like corn, legumes, like soy, the seeds of grapes. I'll give you a really great story. So grape seed oil is now sort of has this health halo, right? Cause it's, people think grapes healthy, grape seeds, anything but healthy. But they were actually a throwaway product of the wine industry, a byproduct of wine making. They would take the seeds, which were very rich in tannin, so very bitter, essentially useless byproducts and throw them out until one brilliant industrialist realized that you could squeeze the seeds, get oil out of them, and sell that oil for industrial purposes, and then ultimately run it through a bunch of different processes that clean it up, get the bitter taste out, make it scentless, and turn it into a cooking oil. And now grape seed oil is on track to become a $600 million a year business. Wow. Yeah. Wow. The problem with oils like grape seed oil, corn oil, soybean oil is that they're incredibly refined. So they go through all these industrial processes unlike when we produce olive oil, which Sal mentioned, it's just made via squeezing an olive. One of the processes that all these oils undergo is called deodorization, and that process actually creates trans fats. So we know that trans fats are not good for us. The most common way in which they would appear in the diet up until just a few years ago was in the form of partially hydrogenated oils, but the FDA realized that trans fats, there's no safe level of trans fat consumption, those were banned. But trans fats lurk in any of these grain and seed oils once they go through that processing, that deodorization step. The other fact that I think makes them unworthy of being included in your diet in any significant way is the fact that they're predominantly polyunsaturated fat. Polyunsaturated fat, there's nothing inherently wrong with polyunsaturated fat. We need them to live. Essential fatty acids, omega-3s and omega-6s are polyunsaturates, but they're the least chemically stable of any other type of dietary fat. So they're more chemically unstable than monounsaturated fat and saturated fat. And the problem with that is that they easily go bad. They become oxidized, and then when we store them and we expose them to light and oxygen and heat, they basically become damaged fats. And damaged fats in essence damages you. You're basically ingesting pro-inflammatory substances that then integrate themselves into your cell membranes and also very easily integrate themselves into your brain because your brain is constructed primarily of polyunsaturated fats. Now this is where I feel like you get labeled as a pseudoscience guy, because you take apart something like this, like grape seed oil. And if grape seed oil is equal to olive oil in calories and you eat the right amount of calories and you're totally fine. And I don't think you would even say that grape seed oil is that bad that's going to kill somebody if you replace grape seed instead of olive oil. Do you think it's the assault of all these things that is so damaging and so bad? Or would you actually say that this one thing is that awful? Well, I think with grape seed oil, it's a dose makes the poison kind of scenario. And I think a lot of the evidence-based, those in the evidence-based camp would say that while these oils, there's something good about, there might be some positive aspect to them and that they're not saturated and so they can lower your cholesterol. So they do do that, but at what cost? You're eating these oils that are very easily, I mean, this is like known that these oils very easily oxidize. And so the other thing is that when you find these oils in nature, they're usually bound to antioxidants, like vitamin E. So whenever you find a high concentration or a high proportion of polyunsaturated fats in nature, you're also gonna find high levels of vitamin E. Vitamin E basically prevents lipid peroxidation, which is what these oils undergo when they over the course of that mutation process. And they're stripped of those antioxidants when we produce them. So I think like a little bit here and there, probably not gonna be the end of the world in the context of a diet that is replete with other antioxidants, like vitamin E, carotenoids, what have you, but no, I mean, I do think that they're definitely, they're definitely worth avoiding. And also like the long-term data like isn't really there. So another thing that I like to remind people of is that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. So the fact that we don't yet know how the chronic day in and day out consumption of these oils affects our long-term brain health. And that is a fact we don't know is not evidence that there's no effect. It's just evidence that there's no evidence. Right, you know, there was a study that they did. It was an older one where they lowered people's cholesterol by switching out their oils. So they went from saturated fat to these types of fats that we're talking about right now, these highly processed vegetable oils. And they did indeed lower their cholesterol, but their health outcomes were worse. Yeah, it's the Minnesota Coronary Survey. It's been a while since I looked at this, so I can't recite the exact details, but it was basically that. They basically took a whole number of patients that were institutionalized and they switched out all of the saturated fats in their diets to corn oil, essentially. They gave them corn oil enriched products. And what they found was that their cholesterol numbers did lower, but they had a dramatically increased risk of heart attack and death. So, you know, so that's where I think that this is like, you know, not something that you want to mess with. Yeah, it's like trying to pass the test. So you got the right grade, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're better off. So yeah, I got the cholesterol test right, but now I'm sicker and not as healthy. So since we're not big fans of weighing and measuring and tracking your food religiously, do you have like a process? Like if you're helping a family, I know you're not like a coach or a trainer with clients like we are, but if you're helping a family member or friend, is there like an order of operation of things like you kind of tell them either to get out of their cupboard or to have more of like, have you, do you go, okay, this, this, this and this, but you don't need that. We can have this instead or make sure you're getting more. Is there an order of operation for you when you're helping somebody? Yeah, I mean, I try, these days I try to just get people, you know, to move away from ultra processed foods, whether those foods are, you know, grain based or even like, you know, I mean, and I'm guilty of this. I, you know, I eat keto processed food products like no tomorrow, you know, it's like, I eat them, but I know that they're, it's very difficult for me to control my, my moderation of those foods. It's just that that's how I, you know, choose to indulge, but generally like I tell people that, that, you know, the more you can move away from ultra processed foods and reach instead for minimally processed foods, I think that you're going to be well suited. And I also, you know, I mean, I tend to have a bias for low, low carbohydrate diets for most people. I had to stop you at the minimally processed thing. Cause Sal says it a lot too. And I think, I think you guys are saying that to protect yourself because almost everything is basically processed. But what you're really saying is whole foods. Yeah, okay. Yeah, exactly. Like foods with singular ingredients, you know. Right, right. Like banana. Cause people hear that and they go like minimally processed. Oh, this one has less than that thing. You know, this thing has hundreds. So this one only got 25. So I'm going to have this thing, but it's really minimally processed where you guys means whole foods. And the reason why you say that is because almost, even almost all whole foods are processed somewhat. Well, we process when we cook. That's why, you know. Exactly. That's why you, I know you'd say that to protect your ass. Yeah, I gotta protect my butt. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, whole foods don't have extensive ingredient lists. They are the ingredients, you know. And I think in so far as we can like learn to cook and process these foods ourselves, I think that's great. But when foods are industrially processed and become what food scientists refer to as ultra processed, that's where I think you have problems. That's where it's, you know, it's like you get these food products that take your body no effort whatsoever to digest. You're absorbing like 100% of those calories. Not only that, but you're absorbing them like really high up in the small intestine. Like it takes your body like no effort whatsoever to assimilate them. And I think that hormonally probably has some downstream consequences as well, right? Like you're absorbing all of that refined grain, that glucose like right away. And I just don't know if your body has the capacity to rebound from it quick enough for you to stop eating and to recognize, you know, to have that sort of acknowledgement that like in terms of your satiety that I just ate food. Yeah, I've had to regress that advice even further, right? Because I mean, maybe for us or people that are in the fitness and wellness space, it's easier to digest that and go, okay, I can do that. I'm gonna eat all these whole foods. But what I've had to do is to reduce it all the way down to like a thing. Because so many people eat such a highly processed diet, I normally will, you know, have my client go, okay, this is what I want you to do. Don't change anything. Eat all your food, eat your Snickers bars, eat whatever it is you eat during a week and just track it for me so I can see. And then I only pick like one or two things I change. And because that in itself is so difficult for most people. To take somebody who eats almost all processed and to radically change them to all whole foods is almost too much. And I've had more success taking somebody like that and just getting changing one or two behaviors that say, listen, this is so much better for you if you do this and it's still good, you'll enjoy it, get rid of this, have this instead. I've had so much more success long term with those people that I have for somebody who comes in and I say, here's your meal plan. You eat 150 grams of protein, you're eating this, this, this and fall this to a T, stick to that for six months, they're getting great shape. Those people almost always like 90 plus percent of those people put all the weight back on. I have way more success even just changing a few things than someone's diet as far as like their long-term health. Well, it's like, it's the difference between like trying to lose weight and weight loss just happening. And what I mean by that is like, if I start removing heavily processed foods, we know I'm going to eat less naturally versus counting calories and macros and trying to eat less. Now, both of them will get you to eat less, but which one is more sustainable? Honestly, like which one, which situation you want to be in? And this is what, it took me a long time to figure this out, Max. At some point, I was like, man, my clients are failing. Consistently, I need to figure out a way for them to eat less just kind of like it happens on its own. And that's the way that- Well, I think that's, it's the psychological part because you're not telling them they can only have like, there's something about that when you say, you can only have this or get that cut this out versus, hey, instead of eating this, let's eat this. And I'm not telling you to weigh it. I'm not telling you to measure it. I'm not telling you to calculate it out. I'm just, I see something in their diet that I think is a poor choice. I can give them a better choice. And if I can just get them to make that a habit instead of reaching for this, they reach for that. And I can train them to do that. I already know naturally the calories are gonna come down. They're gonna lose some body weight. And then I know that I'm also playing into the psychology of I'm not telling them they can't eat or restrict, you know? You're just changing. That's why I feel like counting calories and staying there is like the opposite way to get to the right place. I feel like you're starting at the wrong place. Let's start with the behaviors and then start to move in that direction if we need to. Start counting things. And usually that happens when you're trying to get shredded, but most people could get a good body weight and good health by not even really needed to focus on those types of things. Now you mentioned you tend to navigate max towards lower carb diets. What's the reason behind that? Yeah, I just think, well, first of all, I mean, I start from a place of knowing that there's no such thing as an essential carbohydrate. And then I titrate my carbohydrates up or down depending on my activity levels and my performance goals. Which I think is very easy to do, intuitive doesn't require a spreadsheet to do. So I'm eating more sweet potatoes, white potatoes, rice on my sushi, for example, when I know that I'm using those carbs to support my energy levels. If I've spent a week basically being sedentary, which it's been six months of quarantine at this point, like I'm sure that's not that unusual for some people out there. Then I'm trying to lower on the carbohydrate spectrum just to manage my glycemic variability, keep my blood sugar down. Also, I think that that there is an effect in terms of your hunger levels. If you have these swings in blood sugar, I think that that affects your hunger. And also as I mentioned, protein is gonna be the most satiating for that. I also think that there's value in always kind of functioning or at least occasionally functioning in a glycogen depleted state. Many people when they wake up in the morning, they wake up sort of in some degree of ketosis. I think intermittent ketosis is beneficial from a brain health standpoint. I think that we probably didn't evolve, being glucose burners 365 days a year, right? So I think that there's probably some benefit whether it's on a daily, weekly, monthly, seasonal basis to allowing ketones, allowing the brain to access ketones for a number of different benefits. We know that it's a very powerful fuel source to the brain. We know that it's not just a fuel source, but it has all these signaling benefits in terms of boosting blood flow to the brain, boosting growth factors like BDNF, brain-derived neurotrophic factor. So for me, that's why I think low carb trumps low fat. And we know that high carb, high fat is sort of the basis of the standard American diet. So I think you've kind of got of like, I think it's best to kind of pick one or the other. Obviously we have populations around the world that thrive on low fat diet. So I'm not saying that you can't have a low fat diet and thrive, but I also think there's benefits to hunger regulation on a low carbohydrate diet. And so for me, like that, like there's no doubt that low carb diets help people lose weight and achieve their goal body compositions. It's not the only way to get there, obviously, but I do think that it's helpful. It's a helpful construct for people. I think it's pretty easy also for people to that don't have a lot of nutrition knowledge to be able to identify what has a lot of carbs and what doesn't. And so for that reason, it's a good starting framework for somebody to understand. But then going to like the keto side of things, I think a lot of like people in the keto space are just eating too much fat. So it's interesting because my diet is not, it's not a very high carbohydrate diet. It's a lower carbohydrate diet, but I'm also not adding like lots and lots of added fats either. You're not going out of your way to like add fat. Fats and oils, no, because fats and oils are a very nutrient poor food. The calories add up. And yeah, there's just no need, there's just no need to do that. What about time of day? Are you familiar with any research, you know, recent research talking about best times of day to eat or cause, you know, eating late at night. Here's some people say that's not a good idea because it messes with your circadian rhythm or you should fast or what about time of day? Is there anything that you can speak to that? Well, I think what's called early time restricted feeding. So eating an earlier dinner probably has metabolic health benefits, like better blood sugar regulation, better blood pressure. It can be a very useful tool for calorie control. The data on humans doesn't really seem to show a benefit of intermittent fasting for weight loss beyond just calorie control, which I appreciate, you know, I don't think it's like a magic tool for weight loss or anything like that. But I do think that there are metabolic health benefits and a lot of that I think potentially can stem from the fact that, you know, all of our organs are under circadian influence. And so take insulin, for example, you're more insulin sensitive earlier in the day than you are later on in the day. So, so carbs earlier and less carbs later in the night? Yeah, so insulin basically influences glucose management in the body, right? So if you're eating all of your carbohydrates earlier in the day, you're probably gonna have, you know, an improvement in your just overall area under the curve for insulin and blood sugar. Interesting, bodybuilders have been talking about eating that way for a long time. Oh, yeah. Are they? Yeah, oh, yeah. And we're talking about so much right now. I feel like the important thing is like, and the takeaways that I think of is, you know, going back to the behavior stuff, it's like you pick one or two of these things, you implement it into your life, you create a habit around it, and then you build on it. Like that to me is far more successful than, you know, circling back to the title of this, right? With the whole counting calories and macros and weighing food. I just, you'll have far more success taking it at a slower pace, picking one or two of the things that we've talked about, implementing it into your lifestyle, creating a behavior and a habit around it, and then building on that with all the other things that we're talking about. That rule, I think you'll have far more success long-term than maybe the short-term success you have of, you know, staying strict on a diet, measuring, weighing, tracking for three to six weeks. You know, Max, I did want to ask you kind of one last, like maybe group of questions. More people today, just because of COVID and the circumstances are eating at home, they are buying more processed foods because here's one of the benefits of processed foods, long shelf-lifes, like I could buy a bunch of it, store it in the cupboard, and it's not going to go bad unlike whole foods where, you know, if I buy too much of it and it'll go bad, if I don't eat it. Do you have some go-to processed foods? Like if you are gonna go that route, what are there some better options? Yeah, well I love this question because it also, you know, it allows me to sort of illustrate the nuance that not all processed foods or ultra-processed foods even are bad for you. Like we all love a good like avocado oil-based mayo, right? I eat dark chocolate regularly, which is an ultra-processed food. Yeah, so I mean like staples for me, I always keep my kitchen stocked with a good dark chocolate. I found one of my favorite bars. You like light some candles, eat a little dark chocolate. Eat a little dark chocolate. Yeah, place me on. Me time. No, I love a good dark chocolate. I get like this 88% bar from Endangered Species, which is a brand I have zero affiliation with them, but Consumer Reports, it was either Consumer Reports or Consumer Lab found that they were the bar that had the lowest level of heavy metals and the highest concentration of polyphenols, of like cocoa polyphenols, of like any other bar that they tested generally. So yeah, it's a cool. Doug, do you eat that one? Doug's a chocolate fanatic. I buy 88% Endangered Species. Yeah, I'm the Alter ECO guy. Alter ECO, huh? 85%. 85% nice. I've always, I try to, I actually, I mean dark chocolate is a health food. So I eat like a bar a week at least. And so I have that in the house. I always have sardines, beef jerky, Paleo Valley beef sticks. I know you guys love them, huge fan. Yeah. What else? I mean, I definitely think that there's value in a good protein shake. You're talking about cooking because I know you do cook a lot and you're kind of, I've seen some of your posts and they look pretty, any simple meals that you like to make that are easy? Because I mean, again, let's face it. For staples. For like Bachelor guys. Yeah. Oh man. Well, so this isn't a meal, but one of my favorite recipes, it's also, it's so easy to make, so tasty and very good to give to house guests. Like they're, they always tend to be very impressed. All you got to do is melt a, so it's their dark chocolate covered blueberries. So how I make it is I melt a bar of dark chocolate, very, very low heat. Like you can kind of pulse the heat on your stove top, like, you know, maybe 10 seconds on, 10 seconds off. You don't want to burn the chocolate. You just want to like melt it down into a pan. And then like, so one bar and then you throw in half a table spoon of coconut oil. And if you're using a very dark bar, throw in a tablespoon of like a, I use like a Lakonto Monk Fruit Arithritol based sweetener. So you throw in a little bit of extra sweetener just to like, you know, to up the sweetness. If you're using a very dark bar, you don't, you don't, you can omit that if you're using like a 72% bar. I use 88%. And so once it's all melted, you throw fresh rinsed but dry blueberries into the pan. And then you just make sure that they're all covered. And then you spoon them onto a baking sheet. And then you throw them in the, oh no, before throwing them in the fridge, you sprinkle a little bit of sea salt on top. Just for that like nice little, like salty. Man, I got something to go with that. If you make that, if you make that for your guests, I got something to go with it. You'll like this. So I take a Greek, like your plain Greek yogurt, strain it over a cheesecloth overnight. So you get all the liquids out and then whip it and add whatever your favorite sweetener is to give it the sweet taste. So it doesn't have that tardy taste. And then you dip strawberries in it. Oh man. Yeah, it tastes like whipped cream and strawberry, like a strawberry shortcake type of thing. I'd love to see you guys feed each other. Whoa dude, this does sound very romantic. He was talking about the blueberry stuff. I'm like, man, that sounds like something I do with the strawberries. The blueberry balls and my strawberry dip. And they just would go together is like a little thing, you know? It's so awesome. Yeah, it's just really easy to melt a bar of chocolate down and chocolate coat whatever you want. I like cheese nachos. That's my favorite cheese nachos. That's my favorite cheese nachos. Do you know what I'm saying? That's a home run. Well dude, Max, you're always fun to talk to you, man. I love having you in the studio. Your book, how's your new book doing by the way? I mean, it's been out now for how long? It's been like six months. Yeah, it's doing well. It's called The Genius Life. And it's about all the little things that you can do throughout the course of your day to improve the way you feel and boost your health long term. So it's 360 degree sort of lifestyle approach. Touches on exercise, physiology, environmental toxicity, diet, circadian biology, nature, and even like how we interact with technology. There's a lot in the book. But yeah, it came out back in March. And so highly recommend going to check it out. I recommend it. It's a great book. And then of course, the original Genius Foods, both. Well, it goes great with this conversation. Yeah, both great books. It's actually probably my most recommended book that I recommend to family members because the way you write, it's easy to digest, easy to understand, very pragmatic. And of course, it's all research-based. Thank you, brother. No problem, man. Thanks for coming on again. Thanks for having me. Canisters. And I don't know what she's doing next. Do you know Doug? Do you know what she's doing? I don't know. I just shot a bunch of photos for our website of our Meregear. Oh, you did? Yeah. I think she wanted to do the wine. Bro, your dog's having- You're just getting excited, dude. He's having a good time over there, bro. Hey. Hey. He's getting a little...