 Think Tecawaii. Civil engagement lives here. With us today, Mayor Manoar Araujo, who is the Mayor of Kilimane, Kilimane City in Mozambique. Welcome to the show, Mr. Mayor. Thank you very much for having me here. Thank you. It's my pleasure. Thanks for being here. Now, Mr. Mayor, the country of Mozambique has quite a history. If we could spend a little time talking about that, I understand that you went through 400 years of Portuguese rule and finally achieved your independence in 1975. However, two years after the achievements of independence, the country got into a civil war. Yes. What happened there? Wow, you did your homework. Yes, indeed. We had, as you mentioned, I think Vasco da Gama, when he was on his way to discover, to encompass India, he went through Mozambique and actually stopped in Kilimane. That's why the river, which goes through Kilimane, it's called the River of Good Signs, or Rio dos Bonsinhos in Portuguese, because it was in Kilimane where Vasco da Gama was sure. He got the assurances that he was on the right path to India because there was an Arab trader who had done the opposite, like from India to Kilimane, so to buy things then to take there. So in Kilimane, he was sure that he was on the right path. Indeed, from there, it started a process where Portuguese people, Portuguese settlers who will come to Mozambique, first of all for trade, but then more and more they start settling in and of course they start ruling. So that period went for almost 500 years. And in 1964, a struggle, three movements came together to create a united front to wage. First of all, they wanted to negotiate. Are you talking about the War of Independence? Yes, of independence. But the Portuguese, they didn't want to grant independence, unlike the English or the British who gave the independence without any fighting. The Portuguese said, no, we are not giving you because you are not prepared. So Mozambican couldn't take kids, of course, so they organized themselves and they waged a 10 years guerrilla war against the Portuguese to achieve independence. And the reason why I'm stressing the idea of a common front is that after independence, the leadership of the front decided that they were going, in the context of the Cold War, they decided that they were going to align with the Soviet bloc because of the support that the Soviet bloc gave logistic support to wage the guerrilla war during the 10 years. So then they were getting support from Soviet Union and China. Mainly China and Soviet Union. So they decided to copy in the past the so-called Marxism-Leninism to Mozambique. But of course it didn't work because the circumstances were different. The levels of the economy, what they called the productive forces were not developed to to be declared as a socialist country. So then a division started within the group. Some were saying, well, look, when we are fighting, we never decided that we are going to be Marxist-Leninists. We decided to become independent. Then we will have free and fair elections. Then we will decide which system we wanted. Is this the opposition party speaking now? I mean, it wasn't opposition then, but then they became opposition. Yeah, because they were saying, no, wait, we cannot go this route because there was no any consultation process. There was no referendum. There was no any constitutional assembly to decide. How can you by yourself decide for the whole nation? And then because there was a coup d'etat in Lisbon, which was our colonizer, then the transfer of power was quite messy. So the Freiland party took power as a result of an agreement with the then newly established government in Lisbon. And independence was declared on the 25th of June 1975. Of course, the new government came. They tried. They abolished private property. They nationalized education. They nationalized health. You couldn't exist, for example, liberal professions like lawyers. And so you couldn't be a lawyer. Or you couldn't have your own factory. Or if you had two, they would take one. Everything was government owned. Exactly. So they decided to become or to make the country not a market economy, but a central planned economy copied under the Soviet model. Now all this time the country was under Preston, Michelle? Michelle, that was Michelle who proclaimed the independence. And then two years after independence, of course, a civil war broke up. First of all, it was very contained. But then because of the increasing discontent, because like they almost banned religion, you couldn't go to a church. I mean, for you to go to church, you had to ask for permission for you to move from one city to visit your daughter or your mother in another city. You had to go, you had to ask for permission. So people started becoming very anxious about it. Were they promoting a particular religion? Not at all. Actually, they said that religion was the opium of the people. So like they were against any kind of religion. And they declared a state as a non-religious state. Now during the civil war, was there any foreign intervention? Not in terms, unlike what happened in Angola where you had the Cubans, you had the South Africans and others. In Mozambique, it was a kind of proxy war. Like Renamo would have the support of South Africa and other, while the government would have support, for example, from Cuba, from Soviet Union, from East Germany. But in terms of, for example, of aircraft for the government, in terms of guns, in terms of bullets, in logistics, not men. The only men from foreign countries that will come will be, for example, like special and military advisors. But yes, so the intervention in Mozambique, foreign intervention, was quite different from what happened in Angola. Because in Angola, you had, for example, Cuban soldiers fighting against South African soldiers in Angolan soil. Our case was a fight between Mozambicans, but with the support of either regional powers or in the context of the Cold War, with the Soviet Union. So they were interfering for more slowly and indirectly? Yes. Okay, so after President Machel, President Chisano? Yes, actually President Machel, he died on an aircraft crash. He was coming from Zambia to Mozambique and then his plane crashed in South Africa. There was an investigation, but still there are two lines. One is saying that it was the South Africans who killed President Samora Machel, who made the plane, who diverted the plane for its route to crash in the Muzini Mountains. That's one. But there are others who say, because President Machel was so disappointed with the Soviet bloc that he went to meet President Reagan in Washington via Margaret Thatcher in UK. Then the Soviets, they were not happy with that move. So others say, well, because his plane was a tuple of from Russia or from Soviet Union then. And even the pilots were Russian. So there is a second reading where they say that it was killed on the orders of the Soviets because they were not happy with the changing of policy or more concrete with Samora Machel going to meet Ronald Reagan in Washington. There is a third thesis which says that the pilots were just drunk. As you know, our friends from Russia, they like their vodka. But they hold their liquor very well too. Well, that's the point. So, well, I don't know which of the three is truthful, but the point is that Samora Machel died in South Africa on the 19 October 1986. Then came President Chisano. Actually Chisano was Samora Machel's minister of foreign affairs since independence. Oh, wow. So he had a very... Was it an election? No, because we had a monopart system, you know, and communism was socially under one part system. Unipart. You don't have elections. So it was one party. It's the organs of the party which would choose the president. Until 1990, when a peace agreement was negotiated and it was finally signed in 1992 in Rome with the support of the Vatican and the Catholic Church. And there was a peace agreement between Feralimo and Rinalmo. Between Feralimo and Rinalmo. I mentioned 1990. That was the year when the new constitution, a multi-party or the first multi-party constitution was introduced in Mozambique, allowing for other parties other than Feralimo to exist. Allowing other youth organizations to exist because up to that time there was allowed only one youth organization, which was the Feralimo Youth Wing, one women's organization, one journalist organization, and all of them were affiliated to the ruling party. But from the 1990 constitution then the political space was liberalized and then two years later a peace agreement was signed and then two years after the agreement in 1994 the first multi-party elections were organized in Mozambique. Now President Shisana was highly instrumental in this move from Marxism to capitalism. Definitely yes. Not only from Marxism to social, I mean to democracy, to liberal democracy, but also from a command economy into a market economy. Because the country was literally bankrupt and that's why Samara Michelle went knocking the doors to west to give him support. Because he had asked for support for the Soviet bloc, they said we don't have money for you. That's why he went to west. So two years before Samara Michelle died, mainly in 1984, the World Bank and the IMF signed an agreement with Mozambique so that they introduced a structural adjustment program step by step reforms to transform the then central planned economy into a full-market economy. So it started in 1984. So when Samara Michelle died already the World Bank was negotiating with Mozambique towards that end. And in 1995 that was also when Mozambique joined the Commonwealth Nations, right? 1997. 1997. Yes, because I'm very aware of that because I wrote the first brochure explaining why Mozambique should join the Commonwealth. President Mozambique, he tried to amend the constitution to limit the terms of the president. Did he succeed in that, the presidency? Oh yes, actually our constitution states that the president can only run twice. So we as a country succeeded in that. So there is a limit. For example, the current president is finishing next year his term, then he can run only once. And the previous president, actually the previous president Mr. Gibuza, he wanted to amend the constitution so that he could run forever but he didn't succeed. Then he tried to put his wife, he didn't succeeded. So he tried to put more other people but the country was resilient and resisted his moves. Well thank you so much Mr. Mayor. Thank you for sharing with us the historical slices of a country. I think it really speaks to the resilience of the country. We're going to take a little short break here and when we come back we're going to talk about present day Mozambique. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Thank you. Hello, I'm Dave Stevens, host of the Cyber Underground. This is where we discuss everything that relates to computers that's just going to scare you out of your mind. So come join us every week here on thinktecawaii.com 1 p.m. on Friday afternoons and then you can go see all our episodes on YouTube. Just look up the Cyber Underground on YouTube. All our shows will show up and please follow us. We're always giving you current relevant information to protect you. Keeping you safe. Aloha. Aloha. My name is Mark Shklav. I am the host of thinktecawaii's Law Across the Sea. Law Across the Sea is on thinktecawaii every other Monday at 11 a.m. Please join me where my guests talk about law topics and ideas and music in Hawai'i, Anna, all across the sea from Hawai'i and back again. Aloha. To the Global Report, I'm your host Lily Ong. We're here with us today, Mayor Manuel Araujo, who is the Mayor of Kilimane. Welcome back to the show, Mr. Mayor. Thank you very much. The pleasure is all mine. Well, Mr. Mayor, you're here in Singapore for the Mayor's Forum. Before we go into that, I want to talk about you and from the time you took over as Mayor of the City, that was back in 2011. Yes. And it was not... 30th of December, 2011. 30th of December. And it was not an easy situation to come into. Tell us some of the challenges back then and how did you overcome them through these years? Well, the first challenge was that, you know, I'm a university lecturer. I teach economics and international relations. And actually, at that point, I went back to my city because I was building my resort because I thought that, well, I needed to do something in my hometown. And then, accidentally, or incidentally, the then mayor of my city, he was pushed out on corruption charges. So at that time, according to the Mozambican law, when a mayor is prevented from finishing his mandate, a by-election is called. So a by-election was called and everybody from churches, from the youth and the elders are like, well, why don't you run? I was like, well, I've got my plans. I'm like, no, your city needs you, please. So I had to leave my dreams. I finished though my, my, my, my, my, my resort. But then I run, then I was elected mayor of my city. The first... And you won by a pretty comfortable margin? Yes, actually. I won by 64 per cent on the, on the by-election. And two years later, according to the law, you just finished what the other mayor had already done. So I finished and two years later, I had normal elections in 2013. There then I won with 75 per cent, which for me was quite thrilling because I didn't expect that I would have moved from 64 to 75 in just two years. Now which party were you running? Movement for Democratic Mozambique, MDM, which is a enormous militarized party. It's a party of young people, youngsters. And with only nine years of its existence, it was already running at least until last year. The second city, which is Baylor. The third city, which was Nampola. Calimani City, which is the fourth and Guguru, the other way for municipalities. And just to go back to our questions, the biggest challenge, the number one challenge was lack of human resources. Because of this kind of socialist model, everybody who was capable from the city, from the provinces, tended to move into the capital. And so... Is it because of the opportunities? Yes, because of opportunities and also because of the level of poverty. Because, for example, when I was 18, I had to leave my town because there was no education, there was no university. So I had to go to Mahput to the capital for further studies. So all bright people end up going to the capital and then they never come back, of course. When they go there, they're 18, 19, 20, they get their girlfriends, they get job there, they marry there. So they settle down there, they never go back home. So there was this gap in terms of human resource. Up to now, we are trying to fill it in, but it's not easy to attract people from there. But now also the situation differs. Now, for example, we have five universities in my city. When I was 18 years old, none was there. So human resources was number one. The second, of course, was financial resources. Because I think that when you have the right human resources, then you can find money. But even if you find money, you may not find the right human resource. So you need to get the balance. And then, of course, the infrastructure of the city was depleted. You have bottom halls in the main streets of the city. Even the provincial governor who lives in my city, because Kenabali is the capital city, he couldn't drive his Mercedes Benz because of the portholes. So he had to move on four by four. Like everybody was using four by four. So one of my biggest challenges was, first of all, to get 138 degrees in terms of human resources to attract youngsters. So I went to university and get youngsters to come and train them and give them experience. What were some of the ways that you used to attract them? I had to explain what was at stake. And I would use my own experience because I did my high education in Maputo at the capital. Then I went abroad. I lived in London in UK for 10 years. I did my master's in the University of London School of Oriental and African Studies. Then I did my PhD at the University of East Anglia. Then I worked for Amnesty International in London. So I had my career. But at some point, I was like, well, my country needs me. So I need to go do something. So I used my example to attract other youngsters. Say, look, at some point, you need to stop and you need to give it back something to your motherland. So by using that example, some people money to come. And of course, you need to find other issues. For example, my director of communication is not from Kalimane. He is from the staff. But because he saw what was happening in Kalimane, a young man with a different discourse. And like, for example, I made my all campaign using a bike. So I was like the first politician in Mozambique who did his whole campaign on a bike. Of course, it brought an environmental conscience to people. But also, it included those who were excluded from the development process, those who were biking. By seeing the mayor biking, they feel more energized, more empowered and stuff like that. And they feel a connection too. Exactly. So it's like those small things that make things look like there is somebody who is different with a different discourse, with a different approach, with the different working ethics. And I don't have money to pay them what the market would otherwise. So I managed to attract a very ambitious team and we are working. And the third challenge was like the language somewhere. Kalimane in Zambia province was the only province without an instance of language or any English school. But in today's world, if you want to thrive, you need to have a minimum command of English. Is it Portuguese to see the main language? Portuguese is still the main language, but you need English skills to survive. It's like computer skills. So fortunately, the then minister of education, Dr. Ferron, he was my classmate. So I spoke to him and said, look, why is my city the only one? The only provincial capital without an English school. So I didn't know that. Okay, we'll work out on that. So we managed to put now in an English school, people, people can go there and stuff. I mean, like those were like the a piecemeal approach that, you know, we tried to put the pieces together. And today, of course, we can tell a successful story. Wonderful. I hope you share that at the Mayors Forum. Well, I tried my best and yes, we do. And we tell that story because we need, we're still miles away from what is our dream. So we need to learn from others. We share also our experience, but also we need like to get other partners, be endures, be funders, be philanthropists, like, you know, who can get inspired from our example and are willing to help us because we need the road is still long. I mean, we're talking about funding. I know one of the sessions at the Mayors Forum was about how Mayors can go about attracting funding. Which am I sharing? What were some of the things that you learned from the forum place regarding that? Yeah, I mean, one of the things I learned and then after that, I met different institutions here in Singapore dealing with land issues. Because land is an important asset in my country because we have got business in in Yeritans from their old socialist time. Well, we are 25 million people and well, we have a very long coastline. We have 3,000 kilometers of coasts. You can see the potential for tourism on the Indian Ocean. And your particular city is a seaport. Yes, it's a coastal sea and we have a port there. And another port is going to be built in the upcoming years and the new railway linking the heart of the Mozambican mineral resources in Tete province, Mautiz, to ship that to abroad through the port that will be built here. So at this event, were there, you know, different organizations or private companies looking to help other countries or cities? Oh, yes, definitely. As I was saying, one of the things I learned from the forum was how to transform an asset that we have, which is learned, how to monetize it and get money out of feeds for future development. For example, I'm desperate to find people who can help me to have a master plan, a proper master plan, because my city doesn't have a proper master plan. That's like to me, it's like number one challenge that I'm facing. I don't have the expertise, I don't have the money. So it's very difficult because there are very good companies here. You know, I contacted some companies here like Saban and like D.K. Architects and others, but we've got the expertise, but you need to find somebody who can fund. I've been contacting, for example, UN, Abitat and others, but most of these don't have money. So like, you know, the issue is between an egg and the chicken, what comes first? Well, I need a master plan to be able of attracting investment, but others say, well, you need money to pay for the master plan. So it's a challenge, but I'm confident that somehow we will manage to cross that challenge and be able of getting somebody somewhere in this world who will be wanting to fund our master plan so that we can move ahead because a city without the master plan is like a ship in the high sea without a bussler. Like, you don't know where you are going. But doesn't your country have rich and extensive resources? We do have, but the point is like there are unexploited resources. So we need to a roadmap that will take us and bring them. Like, for example, I don't agree with this, what is happening in my country now. It's like, we are exporting raw material, like thousands and thousands of tons of timber, wood, is being exported, cut and exported to China and in other countries. Like other companies, like from Spain, from China, from Japan are there. They are fishing without any processing. They are just shipping all the fish that they get. For example, there are Chinese companies like they are taking precious sand, like heavy sand, they are raw. Like coal, every day more than 50 huge trains are taking coal from Tete, shipping out. Like, we need to build in this, we need to process the raw materials to give value so that we can maximize the whole value chain. By then, if we do that, we will create employment, we will get more resources, then we will learn. Because in the process of producing or of transforming the raw material, Muslims also will learn the skills. There will be a transfer of technology and of work ethics and so on. So somehow, somewhere we need to stop and say, well, wait, enough is enough. We need to attract those who have technology to come and put and install their factories in our country rather than exporting unprocessed raw materials. I think that China has been quite successful going around Africa either in exchange of land or in exchange of resources to provide them with infrastructure. Do you see that happening? Yes, of course, in Mozambique, they are in the timber business, they are cutting timber and exporting in the fisheries, in mining. But unfortunately, it's not only China. Other countries are doing the same. So we are like a reservoir of raw materials and processed raw materials which are being exported. We need to change the development model. We need to make sure, create attractive conditions for foreign direct investment, but an investment which creates opportunities, which creates opportunity, which trains the labor, which upgrades the labor, which skills the labor, does adding value to the raw materials that we do process. Mozambique is a very rich country, but because of wrong policies, because of the wrong development model, we are still very, very poor. We need to change that. But just to cast a positive light, your GDP growth is actually one of the highest in the world, even though the GDP per capita is still low, but your GDP is actually one of the highest. Of course, because when a country is coming from too low, when it implements some decisions, of course, one of the impacts will be like a very high GDP growth. But I think that in the medium and long run it will stabilize. And what we want is not just GDP growth, which doesn't reflect on the people of the country. We want an inclusive growth. A growth not only technical or capital-intensive techniques, but we want an foreign direct investment, which is also labor-intensive, because it's labor that income is redistributed and that the people can feel the benefit. Because if people don't feel the benefit, they will go against that development model, and then we will end up either like South Africa or like Brazil with high rates of crime and homicide and so on. We want to build an harmonious society. I think one of the countries that I emulate is Singapore, where in 40 years you managed to move from an underdeveloped country to a developed country. I hope we can learn something from Singapore. I hope we can learn something from other countries so that we can take, because like if you look at the level of mortality rates in my country are just astonishing. It's a pain exercise to make, but I think if the right path of development is established, then in a very short term, we can follow into Singapore's footsteps, our footsteps. Hope for that to happen too. Mr. Mayor, we have just a few minutes left. Since you used to work for Amnesty International, I understand you were in the human rights area. What are your thoughts on the present day situation, you know, with the immigrants, refugees? Well, the issue of refugees is an important issue, or migrants, but it underlines another problem, which is a development problem. Because my question is why are these people leaving their home? I don't think that anyone, you know, if you are happy at your home, you leave your home to go somewhere else. People migrate because the conditions at their home are not good. Be economic, be political or other, and actually security actually. And in most countries, for example, Latin America or Africa, the lower development level of those countries make those regimes in power, they become too secular-minded, and so they threaten the security of the individual. That's why people leave. But the solution is not to build walls. Actually, I think that's a very stupid answer. The solution is to promote development in those countries so that people don't feel the need to move. As simple as that. But you may put a wall there, but people will find a way to go. And for as long as weapons are being supplied to those regions, the wall would just keep going on. Well, thank you so much, Mr. Mayor. I wish we have more time, but thank you so much for spending time with me today. Thank you very much. I enjoyed the rest of your stay in Singapore. It was my pleasure. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Thank you.