 Hi everyone and welcome to the addiction recovery channel. I'm Ed Baker and I'm your host I couldn't be more pleased than I am right now to have with us three distinguished guests Warriors in this fight for rights in Vermont We have Sarah George states attorney and shittenden County. Hello Ed town. You have a Hosski senator Hello Ed and Teller small representative in our house of representatives. Hi Ed. It's great to be back. Yeah, it is Tonight tonight. We're gonna look at something that is hard to look at and you know most from hunters are Are in deep grief Over what's happening in our state today to our beloved neighbors people are dying at unprecedented rates So that'll be the beginning of the show to really give you an idea about the gravity of what is happening And and the honest truth about what is going on so we can be what we let's begin with Sarah What are you seeing out there on the street? What are you seeing every day and in the work that you do in Vermont? What I'm seeing as a prosecutor at least in the in the courthouse is People in our community who are struggling More than I've ever seen in the 12 years. I've more than 12 years. I've been a prosecutor We have significantly more people who are coming into our system Unhoused without the mental health and substance use services that they desperately need without Phones or food Basic needs not being met and it is leading to an increase in in behavior that is Is desperate is coming from a place of desperation that I've just have never Witnessed and it's quite heartbreaking to see people Struggling the way that they do and then the way they they are and the way that our system reacts to that is Even harder to watch. Can you can you and this is not a this is not a pretty topic But can you describe a little bit about the locations of death where these people are dying more frequently as we as we move along this year? Yeah, so, you know historically I've seen people dying primarily in homes and hotels Occasionally in public bathrooms, but it does seem like we're seeing more people dying literally in our streets in parks and behind buildings and in alleyways Also in public restrooms and in hotels and motels And alone often alone. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, sir I know it's not easy to talk about and I know you have a lot of emotion about it like we all do A senator Bovsky Tony Tony, would you like to just chime in? What are you seeing happening in our beloved state right now? Yeah, I mean I have to echo what Sarah has said what I'm seeing is people in despair I'm seeing people losing their loved ones. I'm seeing people struggling to meet their basic needs and Not having the resources the supports and the services they need, you know when I'm not serving in the Senate I'm a clinical social worker and so I'm working with people who Really are struggling whether it is to put food on the table or whether it's the loss of a loved one You know I work largely with adolescents and transition age young adults Which is a population that is just incredibly hard hit a Population that doesn't know what the future looks like for them or if they have a future and and it is to me when I look at The deaths that we're seeing these are every single one of them. It's a death of despair and in order to Respond to it. We can't simply respond to it in a way that punishes them for that because it only increases the despair There has to be some real hope for the future But again just like what I'm hearing from, you know, Sarah in the criminal justice system What I'm seeing in the mental health world is a similar sense of people just struggling like I've never seen before and The magnitude of that struggle seems to only grow each year I see I see and I think I think you're putting in words where we're all feeling a lot of us don't know You know what it is where we're feeling this this terrible weight upon us. It's like a moral weight to do something about it Representative small. What are you saying in your own words? Um, I think to look at this from a different perspective is from the community From folks who are not using drugs in our community What they are continuing to reach out to me and say is that there are people in the parks So there are people in their neighborhoods that there are people literally in the streets who are using drugs and that they just do Not want them there and that they want this problem to go away And I think what is really important to highlight and why we are seeing folks using more in public now rather than In their homes or in hotel rooms is because of this distinct fear of death folks who are using are using because of substance use disorder and now are at this point where they have to be outside because they are Hoping that any pass or buy might have Narcan might be able to call 911 might be able to save their life in that moment And so I try to bring that compassion to this conversation because often folks see this as a personal choice It's written off as that is their problem It is not my problem and instead when we start to look at this as Untreated and undiagnosed mental health disorders within a system that has not been updated That has not been well funded by the state for far too long We have seen this problem exacerbate as I have said to you add too many times This is moved from an opioid crisis to an overdose crisis So now we aren't just talking about opioids We are talking about reducing death and that really changes the way that the community starts to see folks Especially when we start to talk about solutions. Yeah. Yeah, beautifully put. Yeah, so so We agree. It's a catastrophic public health emergency People are dying needlessly Often What do we do about it in your view and you all have you know a lot of experience and a wide-angle view What what is the best possible approach? To what we're describing this catastrophic public health emergency Well, I mean as the prosecutor in the room I would say we need to stop prosecuting our way out of this or attempting to prosecute our way out of this We've been trying that for a hundred two hundred years. It absolutely does not work Prosecutors and police respond to particular behaviors We have to start putting our money or resources our time our energy and our compassion Into the solutions that are upstream from it that are that are dealing with the folks underlying issues They're basic needs being met so that police and prosecutors are never a part of that problem and I Can charge people all day every day and it will never get them mental health services that they need it will never get them Substance use services and if those things are forced on them through the legal system They're much less likely to work. So we really have to you know We need to be putting our money time and energy into the underlying root causes of the criminal behavior if We're talking about other things aside from just the use of the drugs You know, I have other opinions about whether that should even be criminal behavior, but right now it is and so addressing those issues In a different way outside of the legal system from my perspective as a has been proven to work far more than our legal System has ever been proven to work So so basically I think what are you saying is we need to be spending our time engaging This population and using our resources to help them to move forward in health supporters to health supporting ways Absolutely and in really low barrier ways We have far too much red tape right now That is put up for our most vulnerable people the people that our community wants to be You know no longer using in front of them We we need to be taking down as many red tapes as we can for those particular people because they're the ones that we really need To be focusing on Senator Vahafsky, what are you thinking? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that it's very clear We're not going to arrest our way out of this problem. We're not going to prosecute our way out of this problem What we really need to do is respond humanely and we need to keep people alive I think there's a couple of different initiatives Coming forward that are really meant to do that some of which have incredible evidence behind them And I think we need to really look at a harm reduction approach I mean, I think ultimately we need to get to a place where drugs are not a criminal offense They never enter the legal system. They're really looked at Holistically from a public health lens and certainly I know there will be conversation in the state house at some point I don't think we're at the point in this in this society where we're Politically ready to decriminalize drugs, but I do think that that's where we need to go And in the meantime, we need to look at everything we can do to respond and keep people alive Things like making sure that you know a bill we passed last year around comprehensive drug checking that people can go without fear of arrest and get Whatever substance they have Analyze to find out exactly what's in it so that they can use more safely and we need to move towards you know the Dozens of other countries and the 200 sites across the world that acknowledge The need for overdose prevention work and overdose prevention centers and in a holistic way where there are wraparound services Grounded right to there so someone is kept alive until they reach the point where they are ready to do something different And if they don't that's fine too, but that those services are available on demand So I also think we need to make significant investment in a multitude of treatment services and harm reduction services So that it isn't really one-size-fits-all because I think the other real challenge to our treatment and mental health system is there's Sort of this a view that abstinence is the only path to recovery and it isn't it isn't the only path to recovery There are plenty of people who use drugs in a way that never Gets in the way of the way that they live their life and therefore they never come in to contact with the criminal justice system And we just don't know about them And so I think we also in addition to ensuring that we do everything we can to keep people alive We need to also really build out the options for them to engage in Reducing the chaos in their life and getting their basic human needs met You know, we need to build out our housing first program so that abstinence isn't a requirement for housing Which is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. We need to make sure that we're really evaluating All of the different pathways so that everyone gets what they need I mean, I certainly know people in my own life who have battled with Substance use but because abstinence and abstinence doesn't really work for them And so what ends up happening is they're abstinent for a little while and then that stops working and they go back to something else Whereas when they're getting the very limited and usually it's sort of just peer support to use in a way that doesn't harm them They're actually very successful. And so I think we really need to redefine what treatment even looks like You know, you're you're an excellent company because Nora Valkov director of NIDA just indicted abstinence And apologized for it and said admitted that it causes death for those same reasons People some people cannot engage In in that kind of service Human beings have used drugs for as long as there have been human beings And so we really need to start to look more holistically at how we support people to live Full fulfilling lives where they can thrive regardless of what they do in their personal time Also regardless of their wealth That's a big one too that have access to wealth use drugs all the time And nobody says anything about it probably safe drugs probably not probably safer drugs. That's correct representative small What are you thinking? Oh gosh, I was just having that conversation today in the state house about People's access to drugs and when we allow folks to use drugs and when we don't when we look down on folks For using drugs and when we do not and it purely is based on wealth and access Um when folks are are down on their luck when they are impoverished when they are more marginalized in our communities more vulnerable We put a lot more judgment on the fact that they would be using drugs Even though we can recognize that what is going on in their lives is really really hard And that any of us in those situations as we are struggling will find a variety of ways to cope Some that are going to be more healthy and some that might have negative impacts on us But again are really focused on the coping piece of the of a hard life And so what what we're hearing here today is that there is no one approach to addressing the overdose crisis It is multifaceted. We need mental health supports We need harm reduction as a way to get folks in the door And then we need that really strong pathway to recovery and I think The conversation around the drugs that we're seeing in our communities hasn't changed as rapidly as it should we can recognize that The percentage of heroin out there compared to fentanyl has widely shifted to now that we are Nearly seeing little to no heroin in our communities and just fentanyl And of course mixed with xylazine and gabapentin making them even more lethal And so when we're thinking about treatment, I think we have really focused on this hub and spoke model Which I think has done amazing things for vermont But it did amazing things for vermont when we were talking about this as an opioid crisis and not about The crisis of fentanyl and the crisis of mixed uh drugs that are in the community And so we're moving in this direction of finding ways to improve pathways to buprenorphine Really improving our spokes to be able to uh prescribe more buprenorphine recognizing that because of how potent fentanyl is There is a higher dosage of buprenorphine that is needed to maintain that precipitating withdrawal And then on the flip side how difficult it is for folks to access methadone in this state when we think about the hubs We have heard these critiques constantly that they are difficult to access So they have limited time available and that folks that are going there If they miss their spot, they are missing their medication for the day which keeps them out of work Which gets them back on the drugs that are on the street and then kicks them right back into this cycle of recovery And so I love what has happened on the federal level of extending who is able to prescribe buprenorphine But we really need to be looking at methadone expansion and allowing our spokes to be able to prescribe methadone Just like our hubs do We're going to cover that a little bit later and the the points that you've made are also crucial and and so essential We've kind of laid the groundwork now to focus specifically on a major Immediate efficacious way of saving the lives of those most at risk. I think you've called Sarah I think you've called the population the unseen You know the unloved the unprotected It's people with severe substance use disorder who are out there on the street who are not going to engage in services So we have to develop a service that engages them where they are harm reduction So let's let's talk about specifically overdose prevention centers I know you've been instrumental in the movement since the beginning. What what what is your Take on overdose prevention centers and the appropriateness of of of these type of interventions in Vermont today I mean, I think that it's a perfect example of so many things in our history where The united states and even vermont Fight against a particular thing that other countries are doing or other areas of the country are doing Claiming we need more data and yet continue to ignore the data that does exist and and rely on a system This data shows it doesn't work Which is the legal system? and so I would just say what I've said all the time is that if people are Emailing their reps or emailing the mayor emailing police emailing me Upset about the people using drugs in public I always respond to them and ask them what they're doing to support overdose prevention centers coming to this to this community because that We have unsafe consumption spaces all over our city all over our state And what we need is a place for individuals to go where they feel safe And frankly where they are safe Where they won't die and they aren't in public and the needles, you know that all of the things that people are so upset about seeing will be in a particular area And the evidence is so clear that people will use them um, the evidence is clear that it does Significantly decrease the number of discarded needles in the community. The evidence is clear. It does not Lead to increased crime around those areas. It does not lead to people driving from those areas All of the things that people have concerns about there is ample evidence to show Do not bear out. Um And the alternative is what we have right now. We have a city full of unsafe consumption spaces. So And and this is why conversations like this is so important for the public for the audience because the audience is not hearing this where they're being inundated with this information that is just invalid inaccurate That serves to postpone These types of initiatives now. I know I know uh senator vahafsky that you've done your homework I've talked to you before about this So so so chime in chime in about overdose prevention centers. Well, and I've done even more homework since the last time we talk Actually, um the friday before we went back to the legislative session I took a day trip to new york and I visited on point in new york, which is the united states only Overdose prevention center. They opened in 2021 And in their first year of operations Reversed or responded to um 636 overdoses in 23 of which they needed to call emergency services And the city of new york, it's estimated it cost about 30 000 to do an emergency response for an opioid Overdose and so they saved the city millions of dollars. They don't think it costs quite that much in vermont But the point is is that they're able to respond. They're doing good work They have not seen more crime in the area They have two sites one in washington heights and one in um east harlem They've not seen more crime in those areas the one in east harlem is located across the street from a child care facility And they have a mutual relationship where their holistic services practitioners do wellness care for the child care providers and the Providers at on point can have reduced fee child like so they've got good relic community relationships They've built all of these amazing relationships with the medical system and the holistic health system and frankly It was just incredibly beautiful to see this holistic service the least exciting thing that was happening at on point was Substance use, you know, they have a drop-in center that's open seven days a week they serve three meals there they have showers and Laundry facilities and they've got the ability to hand out sterile supplies They have a primary care clinic. They've got on-demand mental health Services so you can walk in and say I need to talk to the counselor And you'll be put on the list and you'll see the counselor as soon as the counselor is available that day And so the and and some of their statistics are just incredible 75 of the people that are utilizing the overdose prevention center Are utilizing some sort of wraparound service, you know, they've got massage and Acupuncture just just an incredible build out of supports and services and that's what good response looks like And they don't track the data of how many people are abstinent after a year one because a lot of the people who stop using Stop going not always because there were definitely people there that are like, oh, I no longer use the overdose prevention center But I come here, you know for my weekly massage, right? And and so there are some people that are still engaged and frankly and the other really interesting thing is a lot of the staff Started as clients and are now providing those those peer supports and services And so It does work it works here and I know sometimes people will look at and say oh two years of data That's not a lot of data But there are over 200 overdose prevention centers in the world across I think 19 countries The first opened in sweden in 1986. There's plenty of data There's data as old as I am like there is plenty of data We just need to look for it and and overwhelmingly when you look at the data Whether you're looking at sweden's site that opened in 1986 or the site that opened in new york in 2021 It works it keeps people alive They had zero deaths and and so I think it's just really critically important that we Follow the actual data I've started to notice that there is the sort of vibes based public safety thing going on where people believe Something to be true and it doesn't matter what data you give them you're not going to change their mind and I think we have to stop that and we have to really look at Going in the direction of doing what works because we know that what we're doing isn't working because if it were We'd have nobody using drugs and we'd be the safest country in the world and we know that that is simply not true Well, thank you and I'm so glad you made that investment in going down there and meeting with them That's impressive and I've often wondered, you know Across our border to the north There's over those prevention in every single province a neighboring state new york because there's over those prevention centers Why is it that what what is we look at these people and think they don't know what they're doing? But they're all over the world people do know what they're doing Now tell them I know that that you you're fierce about this. I know you've been following it and stunning it Why didn't you weigh in? Um, well, I think to answer your question. Why why is everyone else around us doing this and not us? It's stigma. Yeah, it's stigma at the end of the day And I think we see that from the administration currently here in vermont where he uh, the governor will not even refer to these sites as overdose prevention centers He intentionally uses stigmatized language of safe injection facilities to conjure this image of folks going and shooting up In a facility that is not run by healthcare professionals that does not have folks who are trained in addressing overdoses And I I think to senator fahafsky's point The use of drugs pre-obtained drugs in these facilities is the least exciting component of that work When folks are coming in. Yes, they are coming in to make sure that they stay alive at the end of the day Which is one of the things that I often hear is if we put an overdose prevention center in a community We're going to see the drugs flood in we're going to see trap houses all around And we are going to see more people dying of overdose And I said what makes you think that more people would die of overdose if there is a facility where they can go and they would Not die What makes you think that more drugs are going to come in when more folks are going to have a pathway to treatment and recovery? Because they have people who genuinely care about them around them in a facility that say I don't care that you use drugs I just want you to be alive. I just want you to be able to go home to your family at the end of the day I just want you to be able to have one more sleep so you can find that life that is right for you and I think um I think that's one of the most challenging pieces Because when uh, we've talked about either safer consumption sites I mean we've used a lot of different language folks are like well if it's not safe to use drugs Why would we say that it's safer to go to this space? And again, it is based on the resources available. It's based on again people just caring We're not going to see kids using more drugs because of an overdose prevention center being there I can reflect that it when I was a youth I grew up with the dare program They really tried to scare folks away from using drugs Didn't work very well for a lot of the folks um most of the folks all the folks um But what we what I would see as an effective way of letting folks know that using drugs on the street is Lethal and scary is having an overdose prevention center there Because that shows me as a young person that if I wanted to use the drugs that were on the street I would have to go to an overdose prevention center. Otherwise. I'm dying Plain and simple. We are talking about people dying I'm not saying that this is the end all be all for treatment But it is how we are going to get folks into treatment um, especially in the year where we have already hit 180 people Who have died of opioid related death in the state of vermont just through september We were talking about 180 people dying back in 2021. Yeah, and now we have already done that in nine months There's an important public health aspect to the overdose prevention center So new york has a new york city has a memorandum of understanding for the type of drug checking that we passed at the state level last year and so One of the other things that they're doing at on point is when someone has an overdose they are testing that Drug so they are getting a sense of you know, what was it that caused the overdose? What is in the supply and they're able to put alerts out? to the people that are Using and following them so that people know and get a real sort of In the moment idea of of what's happening right now And they also go out into the community and are cleaning up syringes and they are meeting people Out in the community who mode overdose and they're responding in a more humane way The narcan nasal spray keeps people alive and people should use it But it causes an immediate complete withdrawal, which makes people just incredibly sick um I can't remember the exact number, but it was under 100 of those 636 overdoses were actually Turned around without narcan with the use of oxygen securing an airway agitation And in the times that narcan was necessary they use a 0.4 milligram Intramuscular injection which causes a selective release of opiates so people aren't immediately sick because after You reverse an overdose like that You're actually someone's more likely to go out and overdose because they're sick and they may use too much Because they no longer have that innate The word i'm looking for is lost right now, but tolerance And so it there's a public Health aspect and a public safety aspect to this that i about how the opc's are responding that is just so different And this is not me saying that if you see someone who has overdosed do not like use your nasal Narcan that will keep them alive, but there are much more humane approaches that can be done In the controlled medical setting of an overdose prevention center that you just can't do in an alleyway Which gets at sarah's point initially we have unsafe consumption sites that are out there in community We are having untrained people or people with limited training that are reversing overdoses right now And we have an exacerbated emergency medical system that is I'm glad to hear that in new york city they get reimbursed because here in vermont If they are not bringing those folks to the hospital if they are just reversing an overdose in the field They get no reimbursement for providing that essential life-saving care You know i mean it's so this it's so rich It's so in-depth this conversation You know when people in new york are willing to come to vermont And consult with us They're also willing to host other vermont policymakers or advocates to go tour on point I mean we're talking you know we Kind of jumped into there was three of us from the vermont legislature that went and we jumped into an existing tour But i've spoken to the director of on point and he's very willing to host others who maybe are Open to this but want to see what it looks like or a little nervous and and i think we definitely will have to tailor What it looks like in a more rural state, but there are places that have done that too And having been at the drug policy alliance conference, which is an international conference in i think it was october All the days and weeks kind of bleed together People are willing to consult with us so that we build the right size model that works for vermont But but the because that's another argument. I hear is oh, it's a rural state. It's not the same as new york city You're right But that doesn't mean people aren't dying and it doesn't mean we don't have to do something and given that there are Over 200 of these my my guess is that there's some solid evidence on how to do this in a response to a rural model And representative small to your point They track um the radius in new york and new york is obviously a lot denser than anything we have here in vermont But the radius of use for the on point center is about 10 blocks So the people who are coming to use on point live in a 10 block radius Roughly there's one Shelter that comes in from a little further away, but that's not drawing people to that site. It's in the community It's in the neighborhood perfect for berlington A 10 block radius those are the same people that would be using in an alley and now we're using in a safe place not In in that alley and if you look at a heat map of death in berlington It's it's all very very concentrated. So this is um extremely hopeful um We have the resources. I want to move into into that section now where we have the um opioid settlement funds Millions of dollars pouring into this state over 18 years The first year where there was seven point some odd million dollars Allocated for harm reduction, which was a major victory for the advocates that would have never happened without the advocates The second year there's just short of five million dollars Being allocated again for harm reduction and one of the major Segments is overdose prevention centers two point six million dollars So we have the resources now to do this We have the science. We have um an expression of need from people who use drugs and willingness To use it and we have a possible location berlington, which is where the most deaths are What do you see as? Opposition what do you see as Standing in the way now because the avenue is open for us Now is the time to do it to not do it now is not forgivable What do you see as the opposition to making this happen now? I mean, I would just I think that the stigma is always going to be the biggest opposition people who Again, no matter how much information you provide to them. This is just never going to be the solution I also think that it's really important. I I would guess most people when they think about the resources for something like this They're going to think it's their tax dollars going to it and so I do think that That has historically been a huge barrier That my hope is with the right messaging and making sure that this is clear that this is not Tax dollars. This is settlement money that is specifically for This issue that that might get around some of that but we need to make sure that everybody knows that because Like the senator was saying people just hear things these days and believe it as truth and then spread it as truth And that is that is harming our community quite Gravely in my opinion And so I think that making sure it's it's really clear to every single person we're talking to that this is not your tax Not that that shouldn't be an alternative, but but it's not the reality. We do have this other money It is and I think that people don't know that And and and have to we have to make that really clear right on target. So the first piece then would be Aggressive public education based in the truth and in fact Not in stigma and war on drugs kind of mentality, but what's actually happening now these people have a medical disease They're dying They're difficult to reach they are reachable with right kinds of services overdose prevention services are The ideal type for this particular population and We have the money to fund it. Yeah, and it's not your money and it's not your tax dollars It is this other money that is going to What do you what do you see as obstacles or barriers? I mean, I think politically There are barriers and obstacles and I certainly you know on the judiciary committee and the senate and we heard from the administration their priorities and they have a lot of concern With this model and a as they as it was put a harm reduction only model And no enforcement And so I think that we really need to provide those facts and provide those statistics kind of out ahead of Some of this rhetoric that is really grounded in a completely failed war on drugs In terms of the funding I think sarah is absolutely right that making sure people know that it's not their tax dollars But also I think what we really need to do is make sure that as we move forward One of our reporting requirements is actually tracking how much money this is saving our communities And you're marking that to be reinvested in these services I think all too frequently we talk about what it'll cost to do something But we forget to talk about what it costs not to do it Um, and so people can really talk about oh this big number It's going to cost 2.6 million dollars But we're not talking about the fact that we spend a hundred thousand dollars a year to incarcerate someone in some Something like 70 of our incarcerated population struggles with substance use disorder And I mean I'm not great at math, but that's a big number when you start to So we don't it's a bigger number than 2.6 million And so we don't often talk about what it costs to do nothing And and that's not even to mention the lives And so I think we have to really present a full picture both from a humanitarian aspect But also a financial aspect and also really Like challenge that sort of crime and punishment narrative because we know that it doesn't work and Again from a political standpoint I see At least from the presentation we heard yesterday the the administration as as one of the barriers to moving this um And certainly didn't hear much Nothing nothing was presented today in the state of the state to change my mind that that is not going to be a barrier And I'm not entirely sure how we sort of undo that, but I do think it is actually really positive that the opioid settlement um committee Is putting forward the piloting of these two sites with 2.6 million dollars and the administration does sit on that committee I Wasn't in those so I don't know exactly um how how that all played out But what I do know is that the administration was at least sat back enough for those conversations to happen And for this to come forward Yeah Yes, it's a very it's a this is a major point in history in brahmant right now We've never been here before we've been approaching this for a long time We are finally here and it's a pivotal point Representative small, um, I would say the the last one to cover is the what about isms the what about recovery housing What about methanol what about all of these other interventions? Are we taking money away from those interventions to invest in overdose prevention centers? And I think to sarah's point it is it is being really clear about where we are spending the money already Where we have made the investments where the investments are actually working and where they're not And what we can see right now is that the investments when it comes to prevention Is not working right now. What we are seeing is that when it comes to harm reduction It is not working to the extent that is needed because we are not putting enough funding into it And when it comes to recovery Same piece. We know that we need more recovery beds We know that we need medicaid to cover a longer stay for folks to be in recovery Especially when they're in withdrawal All of these pieces are integral to the system But that does not discount the fact that overdose prevention centers are still necessary And i'm really grateful that we are finally at this point where I think we are not only going to fund one overdose prevention center in the state of vermont, but hopefully two to help Acknowledge the geographic differences. Yes, hopefully is right. Hopefully is right and I recognize the barriers and the opposition that you're citing and um This is an historical point in new york The deaths that are occurring In the areas where the overdose prevention centers are located are occurring Primarily when the overdose prevention center is not open So they're lobbying now for 24 7 coverage because because it's so efficacious and um In vermont we have a way to go but with with leaders like you I actually feel cautiously confident You know and um Thank you so much for your work and so much for your service. I I can't even tell you How honored I am to have you on the show For the viewing audience You know, I know I know you want to do something and um, this is what you can actually do representative small And other sponsors have introduced h72 H72 is in act in favor of overdose prevention centers in vermont This is happening now so now If you want to do something tangible that will help solve this problem of people dying every day You can write to your house of representative. Uh, you're your representative in the house And indicate to them that you want them to support h72 We need to save lives now As briefly as that and you'll have an impact yes Yes, and h72 will be up for a vote in the vermont house on january 10th and january 11th But that is just its first stop in the process as it will then move it make its way through the senate So we will also need encouragement on the senate side throughout the rest of uh the Well, maybe maybe later on in the legislative uh session then if I can invite you back And we could we could update the viewing audience on the status at that point And maybe generate some some public action to support this because without public activity It probably isn't going to happen. We we need to get involved now is the time to get involved no more deaths in vermont That's right. So so so thank you again. Thank you. Thank you ed. Yeah