 Hello, welcome back to the podcast producers podcast with me Neil Mossy. Hello. I'm not at the happy hut today Today I am in beautiful Brighton With with one of my closest friends Gordon Lang from camera labs, hello Gordon. Hello Neil. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. This feels very formal and stilted. We never agreed to do this I was just walking home. He's just caught up with me It's the only way to book guests to get on a train and and just hassle them in the street We're looking what a lovely street it is. Yeah, we're looking for somewhere nice to sit down Which is ironic because for this episode I wanted to do as little editing as possible You know the only problem we're talking to you Gordon is that I'm terrified of My gear just not being up to the spec that you're used to It is quite daunting. Yeah, because my my productions are always such high quality. They are they are you from you've got 100,000 subscribers on YouTube. 120. So it's gone up by 20,000 in a year. It was six months that we've last spoken. You were last bragging about it I got over a hundred thousand exactly a year ago. It was in November last year My YouTube partner manager who's since left. Yeah Was it was confident it would it would be double that by now And I was I confidently said to her it would certainly would not be since it took 12 years to get to a hundred thousand It would not be taking Another year because yeah, but most creators do this Yeah, not this one. That's so last century. You sure you don't want to angle that more so that we're both the same size That has happened on the videos I've shot so far. Well, I'm tiny In each one. That's a good visual gag but I even managed to do it with the audio on the last one because The pro I was speaking to actually took off the dead kitten because we were indoors and I thought I'll keep mine on because I like the look Of it. It's like a fashion brooch But on the recording he's booming and I'm I'm small in audio terms It did seem to affect it. Maybe I'm just it was because I was on introvert mode in my voice Do you think the dead cat was absorbing your energy? Yes My aura So we found a bench like a couple of Hobos I was gonna use a nicer term, but yes some itinerant workers The idea of the podcast producers podcast is that podcast producers share their experiences to help Anyone start their own podcast. Okay, and as you say you've been doing it for donkeys years. I've known you since It's probably this week 28 years ago Go on with it all I remember is the wall of Molson dry Yeah, yeah, was it rolling rock? No. Oh, yeah, I think I used to oh sad times Did I used to drink that stuff? I was actually really obsessed with it Also when I used to come and visit you in Camden it was like we're not going to this bar unless it's got Molson dry Excuse me bartender you have Molson dry. Of course we do it's a giant chain and everyone has it excellent Then we shall drink here. Did you use to sketch the logo? I remember the logo being quite prominent wherever you lived Oh dear time And you still talk to me. Yeah. Oh my god. I don't know. Do I only just talk to you please the cops. Let's go I'm in awe of your online presence So the the first person I wanted to talk to about this is you We've sat ourselves in a sound effect factory Because it was so peaceful a minute ago. This was the one episode that I didn't want to edit and I'm not going to this is gonna run long It'll be the TARDIS You know if the picture quality isn't good as well Yes, I'll just spot in shots on the YouTube version of this episode I'll put in shots of my daughter's Lego friends You could be Stephanie That I identify with Stephanie. I'll be Mia. I think they are I like my friends What do you think about them not having standard Lego heads? It bothers me Oh, no, but because they're not the the spherical Chipped head are they one might say that? It means that the these female characters have decided to do their own thing and not fit in with the System which might be you don't think they didn't want to be portrayed as a kind of chunky a canned shaped type character That's true. They're heads are quite big as well. Have you seen the Hagrid? No, the Hagrid is really giant right in Lego friends shape or is it mini figure? Hagrid isn't part of Lego friends. Okay, it's a different it's a different franchise. You might have heard of it It's Mia's friend But it turns out that it's all hair and when you remove the hair is just Hagrid's got a normal-sized head It's just all hair and cape. So it's a giant It's a giant lives what it is What you want is a scaled up one? No, they do it like classic filming which we're gonna make him look big by filming him close up at everyone really far away Which is what you were talking about. I'm gonna go make your guests feel special. Yes by making their voices boom Yes, their feet look large and on the on the video version of this podcast The other the other concern I've had is whether or not I should be sat on the left-hand side or the right-hand side Why is there a dominant side? I think there is I think and I think on talk shows I think they live and die by which way round the host sits So the host is always on the left on TV. No on British shows that on the left button American shows Why is that well? I think it's a thing I think because I learned this while I was doing the stand-up course that when you're thinking you look to the left And if you feel under pressure you you I flick to the right So actually decide that you're sitting on you look like you are permanently trouble on edge Look erudite course on the audio version none of this but but maybe I should put you on the left-hand channel And maybe range me on the on the right that could my mind is blowing But he's true about the British talk show. Yeah. Yeah, the interview was always on the left Yeah, yeah, and it's it's weird because wogan seemed to flip sides And it just felt odd one one way around so that's something to look out for on on talk shows But this is something maybe we're jumping ahead too fast because So the idea is that I talked to people who make podcasts to find out What's worked for them? What what hasn't worked for them? But this is whole Arena a collective noun of podcasts that are also on YouTube and they don't seem to have a There isn't a word for them. So I really like James Outter to show and Jocko willing where there's an audio podcast But you also have The video version and you've you've done that from the outset Yes, but not deliberately. I think it's out of laziness more than anything else. So the way that I So a podcast you could just talk by yourself But the podcast that I do are generally conversations with other people like like this one But they're generally conversations with people over the internet using Skype or previously using Google plus And those systems work very well for video and a few years ago They introduced a means by which you could record it or even broadcast it live as you were doing it to try and encourage people to put More content onto YouTube to feed the beast. So a lot of people started recording video Still recording a show with the goal that audio was supposed to be the final goal. So you wouldn't say So in my left hand, I've got this and as you can see it does this because that's no good if you can't see it But before you know what's happened, and then you've uploaded it to both an audio platform and a video platform of YouTube And you realize that because YouTube just so many people watch it and can come across it and find it Whereas finding podcasts is a lot harder, you know, it's difficult to do good SEO for a podcast But for YouTube videos very easy Particularly when you remember that of course YouTube is owned by Google who are the king of search or the queen of search The leader of the emperor of search. So they make sure that on search results YouTube video always features very highly So if you want to get your stuff found YouTube is a good platform and of course YouTube also lets you monetize it Even if you're only making three cents a month It's three cents more than most people are doing by just making an audio podcast available. Yeah, but that said I think there's a certain sort of laziness to it because you're either doing one thing or another And we're kind of looking about doing a bit of video and a bit of audio and I'd prefer pure audio ones because it's like reading a Book without pictures in it now where you you literally have to imagine the whole thing And we were talking about Adam Buxton's podcast, which is one of my favorites And he doesn't do a video version of that even though he's fantastic on video. It loved his TV shows But it's entirely audio and I don't know whether he's playing sound effects or whether he really is crunching through leaves in it You know, but I imagine him walking through a leafy area like in fact, we are here Take that Adam Buxton You've jumped to the the first format points of the podcast producers podcast which to get to know my guest I mean, I've known Gordon for a hundred years, but it's gone up. He was 28 the it feels like a hundred and the So the first question is without looking at your phone. Yes, what time is it? Which podcast do you check first and update to see if there are new episodes of what's your favorite podcast? Well, again, I'm now going to put my foot in it and say that most of the podcast all shows that I consume are Via YouTube so YouTube tells me rather than me going out looking for them. It's generally other photographers I'm a little bit boring like that. I want to kind of Want to see what they're doing. I want to see if they're doing it better Or whether I'm I've beaten them to some scoop or if they've got some new kind of production idea or a new wave marketing things so I check a lot of the the big the bigger American Photography channels. There's a lovely couple called Tony and Chelsea Northrop They do a lot of video podcasting, which I think is mostly consumed on video Ted Forbes another photographer I think some videos also work well just as audio because of course just because it's on YouTube You don't have to watch it. You could listen to it We could have it playing in the background and listen to it and then turn and look at it when you think oh They're talking about something I'm interested in and now I've got the video element So the guys Chris and Jordan who used to do the camera store TV who are now members of DP review Which is a really big photography review website. They do really really nice videos, but a lot of the time I just because I love hearing them and they're very very funny people. So I just kind of Listen to their show and then look at it when you know, I know there's something interesting going on Which of course is most of the time and then outside of that the comedy the comedy ones most of you know Like my favorite comedians and broadcasters. They they have really nice podcast not necessarily regular ones But I think as I mentioned earlier Adam Buxton I think is one of one of my favorites if you could choose one So you've got limited bandwidth you can only watch one right now. Is there a podcast that you would jump to on YouTube or do you? Well for enjoyment I'd go to Adams Yeah, yeah, yeah, the others the others are kind of more business really sure sure I love the the jingles and the audio production. Yeah, it's fantastic And and the fact that you wonder whether some of them like the sponsorship whether it's parodied or not or whether it Isn't it's parodied, but it is still actual sponsorship Yeah, and I think that's genius and you know that if you do sponsor him You know, he's gonna have some fun with it So your brand's gonna have to work with that and I think that's that's great with the mattresses real Who knows what is it with mattresses and podcasts though? Because when you listen to most podcasts you want to go to sleep Because you consume them lying down Yes, or you or you you bulk consume them you binge on them like when I first came across seven bucks It was actually on a flight transatlantic flight and Binched on about ten of them during the flight. You took them with you. No, they were on part of the in-flight Entertainment system and I often prefer that to watching trying to watch your film on a little screen or when you constantly been disturbed Or you know, I prefer listening to audio instead. What I love about your I call them your community your people your Cabal of other podcasters in the world of Photography and camera equipment Review that you will help each other out. Don't you I've seen clips of those? There's a lot of collaborations. Yeah Yeah, we I think we all met with our partner managers at YouTube at the same time and they all went collaborations That's the future do more of those the idea of course being that you get their subscribers They get your subscribers, you know a bit of cross-channel promotion. I don't I've not actually found that it works that way. It's just more Fun really the other thing that's really nice is that a lot of these creators on YouTube because I first started on YouTube in 2006 When it first launched I was the only person doing Technical product reviews. Yeah, and if you look back at them in their horrendous Well horrendous now, but they were truly awful, but there was nothing nothing else around And then suddenly all these other people came along and started doing it way better way better than I was doing it And you of course go Who the hell does this person think they are, you know, what's their background are they proper trained journalists? Have they ever trod the boards darling, of course they haven't do they boil it doesn't matter They're doing it better than you. They're getting a bigger audience. They're more fun They're presenting information in a better way, but of course you hate them because they're beating you And you build up this an insane resentment and then you actually meet them in real life And of course invariably, they're all really nice even the Oh So I've met most of them now and they've all become friends Honestly Why do you podcast? Well, it sounds really accusatory. It's not it's If you're listening to the audio version he's pointing at me in a in a very mean Fashion and it's a little passive aggressive. Yeah. Yeah, that's my start that's the angle. I'm going for it Why well, here's the thing is that, you know, like most creators you do what you Want to do and people come to it or don't but interestingly within the media people will start to call it a thing So you call it podcasting now, but we used to call them radio shows or we used to call them You know a CD or a tape or mixtape or something like that. So it's we've created this content for decades and decades Video and audio content, but it's just we we just call them podcasts now. Why do I do it? Well What I do is to test cameras I test cameras and I really want to find out how something works I really want to get to the bottom of what makes it different what makes it special better than anything else to see if the Manufacturers when they say oh it now does this and it does this and you think does it really? You know and when you delve into it and look at it and start testing them You realize that it's actually an enormous subject that you can just delve into deeper and deeper and deeper I mean it's an infinite warren of rabbit holes It's it's ridiculous the degree of detail you can get into and that just really turns me on I love that degree of detail and that's what arguably got me fired or made me Unemployable in a corporate environment because they go well Well, we're gonna fit you in that box in these constraints which in the magazine world was yeah You can write whatever you want as long as it's 700 words because that's a page and you're not going over that if you do We're gonna cut it and we're not gonna employ you again because you're making it hard for us to edit If you're on radio where you got half an hour an hour and you've got to stop every 10 or 15 minutes if it's commercial If you're on TV even and so on you know it, you know There's there's a reason why when you cut the adverts out every TV shows 43 minutes or 52 minutes, whatever And you begin to think well, what if I want to make something that's an hour and five minutes What if I want to make something that's three days long? There's you know the beauty of the internet is that we can do that where the people will want to watch or consume it Is it is another thing? But that's one of the reasons I do podcasting and making the videos and writing reviews is To is it it's an outlet for this desire to just ramble on which I've done now I'm ramble No, no, no, it's absolutely compelling because what you touch on two things there one is the gatekeeper That someone should give you permission to to do what you really enjoy doing and then the second of these arbitrary Constraints whereas if you do go on for an hour and a half you'll find the audience that likes hearing it for an hour and a half You know, it's it's an infinite canvas. Mm-hmm. That's really exciting and there's no money in it at the moment Which is what that's the most exciting thing He's had his completely In this park I'm just gonna have a little rest now Yeah, this is my home, but it's true isn't it there is there is Calling is too Dumb a word. There's something beyond just doing it for for the money. There's something almost subversive in You feel a need to express yourself. Well, it's a desire to be heard. Isn't it? You know, we all yeah, we all want to feel that we're important and by producing a show of whatever all producing content Which you're a part of it. Yeah, you kind of like it satisfies that especially so if somebody, you know Gives you a like or says, oh, you know, you're not a complete idiot. Although the beauty of YouTube is that there are plenty of those Comments thumbs down on YouTube. Why do people thumbs down? What's wrong in just going? You know, I didn't really enjoy it Wasn't my thing. I'll move on. No, I'm gonna mark you down Because YouTube pays attention to this and if you get thumbs downs Yeah, actually will show you to less people especially that person and that person's friends connections So when you thumbs down someone for whatever reason if you genuinely hate it or hate them, sure, but if it's like Somebody the other day said to me. I I did a video on how to choose the best vlogging camera. Yeah, and I Said look, there's things that I look for in a vlogging camera first I indicated it with with my finger first this Second with two fingers and the comment was he luckily didn't get to the third You know, I can't believe you held two fingers up to visually indicate the number two or your second point So cliched this light and unsubscribed Well, that's that showed you Really you want subbed from someone because they did I wasn't going hey everyone to two fingers So I didn't do it in a rude way. I did it in the plight way around. Yeah, what you And the idea that it is actually kind of premeditated, you know, I'm really flying by the seat of my pants and everything I don't have time to plan. Yeah, what do you think any I'm making it up and I go my second point is this And that's what I did and he took he took huge offense But this is why this is why I wanted to start this podcast because you like giving or receiving offense Yeah, well because that that kind of comment the in order to keep your Series running you need to have a resilience. Oh, yeah, that kind of and it's really simple which is Let's see How many videos that person has made? Oh, it's always none. It's always when you always click on Yeah, follow them and you track them down. You look them up and they and then you realize So it's good It's good that I have provided an outlet for that person to create their content on my comment You've almost got to get to the point where you Something like that is a sign that you're doing exactly the right thing and that for every comment like that There are probably 20,000 people who enjoyed who like it and that you say really nice things Yeah, yeah, and or do say really nice things But of course you don't concentrate on that and you know, you'll hear a lot of people say Oh, you know, I used to be really sensitive and the trolls used to really get me down But then I was on YouTube for a while and you know It made me really tough resilient and it doesn't because it's the same way that if you're you know If you're a fat unfit kid, which I was or still I am you you know at school if your parents then go, right? Let's get them in boxing training. Let's get a running miles, you know and marathons They you know, they don't like it. They hate it makes them feel worse I should say that my parents didn't do that. So they just let me maybe they should have maybe they should have done And then I wouldn't be the lazy Will you say that but then you wouldn't have the the audio podcast and you wouldn't have the video podcast And you wouldn't have your site. So it was yeah, where are those cool jocks now running the company's leaving comments Internet millionaires The other interesting thing though Neil is that both you and I I think come from we consider journalistic background We're properly trained media trained and who are these upstarts who think that they can come along with no training at all Putting content out without any sub editors or without any producers. Who the hell do they think they are? especially when they start doing it better and getting more likes and I think You know, I I kind of bridge both worlds You know, I started off as a in inverted commas a proper journalist on magazines And we were sent on legal training and how to handle yourself and into you so obviously all of that is worn off now It's no evidence of any of that training anymore in the same way. There's no evidence of my own level physics So, you know move on but So that's so when you when when you first kind of start seeing these other people these are surplus come in you like Who the hell do they think they are and then you think well actually Maybe I should learn from that And his dog hello doggy. How are you doing? One of my fans Yeah, like and subscribe my friends like and subscribe So at first you kind of really resent it and then you think what you know They they are the future So maybe I should be looking at that and you do so I kind of do a bit of bit of both worlds And occasionally I'll become old Gordon where I'm like, oh, how dare they? You know, they're beating me and where's the respect and then there's the other part Which is me is new Gordon where I'm going though, you know, these journalists are really backward and behind the times You don't need a eight-man crew to be able to produce this content And in fact, you know, you're running and gunning you're faster you're more More articulate when you when you do it as a one or two man team person team. So in a way, it's good and you know When you first start getting your bad comments on YouTube if you're older as I am you may think Well, I'm to the good old days of TV where they were grateful for us putting out content And they couldn't comment on it apart from points of view It was like you can say something but we're going to limit it to half an hour with somebody really assert because gonna make fun of you For daring to criticize the mighty broadcast channels and that was it But now, you know with everybody being able to comment and tell you how Ridiculous they think you look or how stupid you are stupidly sad your body language. Yeah Then they're all your heart that you're holding two fingers up to indicate the number two Maybe that is a good it is a good thing. You know, it shocks you at first, but then you think no actually Really the trolls have go mostly got a point, you know, when they say you look like an idiot You look at anything. Yeah, you know what I do like an idiot. Maybe I should do something about that Behind camera talent but to use it as a as an energy or a force to keep going. So it's a good thing I mean, I think our experience is Impediment Yes Because you know and this is why I had to start this I had to start this with literally a chat with the head of programs BBC England I pulled my phone out I recorded on my phone with no microphone just to get the thing started because I'd hit the podcast producers wall on Where you feel that you need to have a certain amount of gear. Yeah, a certain amount of prep Well, let's go through this list You feel like you should have a good website Yeah, that should be a good web presence that you have a feed that works that you have cover art Yes, you're not embarrassed by that you have if you have guests that you have guests of a certain standard What else what else did you have to overcome production consistency? Which nobody cares about apart from you You know the producer the format of what your show covers and how it's structured in each episode because of our backgrounds we feel that we should have a Distinct subject that we should stick to because people are following us or listening to us for a certain speciality or knowledge How dare we think we could even have an opinion on something else or an interesting something else But then that's interesting because when Adam Buxton again Interviews a musician and rather than a comedian. I do sometimes think how dare he who'd he think he is if I want to hear a Interview with a musician I'll get a music journalist or music enthusiast. So I'm guilty of it, too Yeah, it's it's funny. Is it because it is at that stage that you're following the The host rather than the subject Yeah, but there was that cult one there on TV interviews as well quite a long time ago. Wasn't there? Yeah? Yeah, it's true So I'll put the link to your podcast in the show description Description underneath this video if you're watching on YouTube and in the show notes on the audio podcast How many episodes in are you at the moment? Well, if we're talking about because of course you could just take the audio from any video and publish it as a podcast And that could be it. So I'm gonna say on YouTube I've done hundreds hundreds and hundreds of videos some of which are deliberate podcasts as well some of which Aren't but could be in terms of what I've actually published on my podcast stream Not too many maybe about 30 or 40 and they're generally most of them are conversations that I have over skype with photographer friend of mine in San Francisco This is Doug. This is Doug K. Who's absolutely fantastic really fantastic voice Lovely guy Fantastic face as well. It's not saying, you know great for you know great face for radio He's really he's really really nice and we just have a we just have a nice chat It's an interesting community the photography community because I feel although I'm not a member of a caravan in community or of a Barbecue in community. So maybe they do it as well But the photography community do meet up quite a lot We do have like photo walks where we get together and we meet each other We are quite happy to think that we're more important than we actually are and do shows where we all begin to Interview each other and get to know each other that way as well. So I don't know whether many of the hobbies Do that but the photographic community especially in America and I talked to a lot of them there You know, I'm very happy to do that So we've been doing this for a while and like when Google plus as a social network launch They they launched it with well, they didn't launch it from day one with this But they added this feature called hangouts Yeah, which is now kind of being and gone and spin off and there's something else or maybe closed down But at the time it was it was revolutionary was this way that you could you could have a video phone call with more than one person But also record it and broadcast it as a as a show And then they big lots of little tools came out where you could Overlay like the name of your guest and where they were from and things to make it look like a professional show And we were like great. We've always wanted to make our own TV show. So let's do that and again I don't know how many other Communities were doing that, you know model makers painters already You'd be a gardener you'd have the gear to actually Well, there is that yeah, because most of us would have cameras although we were using webcams inside a laptop most of the time Most of us weren't using standalone cameras to do that But we were obviously familiar with and comfortable with visual mediums and if you into cameras these days You also into video and audio so you know, we'd have decent mics And is that how you still run the podcast you still do it as a go Google hangouts No, so we've moved on now because the thing the biggest the most important technical thing that I found doing podcasting and videos Is the most important thing of all actually is the audio? It's not the pitch is the audio is got a sound really really good and a good microphone in a quiet environment You you can't beat especially if it's close to your face, which is not necessarily ideal for video That's why you see so many people with giant microphones in front of their faces doesn't look great Although it does look like professional it does look cool, but it sounds great And that's that's the whole point But what I realized is that even though say Doug and I were using really high-quality microphones Because the the audio was going over the internet. It was being compressed by Skype or Google It was good, but it wasn't as good as a local recording Yeah, and we were also restricted by internet bandwidth and if for some reason because it's not a pipe of a fixed opening It varies so when you both got great bandwidth that's fine But because we're recording at very different very different time zones sometimes it was busy for him or busy for me And suddenly a bandwidth would reduce the quality to fall apart. So what I've now started to do is actually record the audio and the video Locally and we only use the Skype or the Google Plus part literally to communicate with each other That's so we can hear each other. We're not even looking at the camera That's in that call now when it's our turn to speak when we look up at a proper camera locally And we film that and it means you can film it in 1080 or 4k or really a really nice bit rate But more importantly, you've got that local audio with a decent microphone and it's tremendously increases your production time But it does look really good. So you've got to think, you know, how much effort do you want to put into your podcast? Are you producing? So-called evergreen content, which is you know going to last for a long time In which case, yeah, put the effort in if it's just something how they say how I feel today or how I feel this week If it's a weekly or a daily thing then you can be a lot more casual And I think it's very important to think if you are producing that sort of content then make it fun Make it spontaneous, you know, let's go for a walk, you know If we don't care about the noise around us, then yeah, let's go to let's go to a park Let's let's let's do it on bikes Let's you know do something more fun with it more dynamic because it's only designed to last this week But if you're gonna do something that you want people to listen to or watch five years down like a proper tutorial Do it as well as you can. That's that's my that's my approach Well, this is why I'm about four or five episodes in and this is this is why I'm doing it like this It's just to just to get up and running and every Muscle in my brain is going this isn't this isn't correct This isn't yet of the standard that I would have done Or the technical stuff both both and and on top of that the how the the the home site looks and Having started on the social presence yet All I'm doing is just running so that I don't stop Just to try and get as many episodes Under the can into the can as possible Because it's so easy to sit to hit that wall. How how did you not hit the wall? Is it because you're working with someone else? It's because I love the sound of my own voice. I just can't hear enough of it No, you don't need that online though. This is the problem. Yeah, but you raise your game You did it does force you to raise your game. It's like I remember years ago So I'm a photographer, right? But I only show my pictures to my friends and the moment the first time you share a photo online To a public group whether it's this week last year ten years ago It doesn't matter you remember the first one you did because you agonized about it But age is it good enough to post I'd show it to my friends But would I show it to a stranger who is likely to go your idiot, you know, it looks rubbish You should have done it like this So you think you know what I'm not going to post that because it isn't good enough I'm going to post that because it is and I'm proud of it and it does raise your game Like I think as a photographer I've become much better since I started sharing my pictures much better Also better at playing the game. You know what kind of pictures work. Well I'm going to get more likes so you might end up taking more of those rather than the ones you actually want to take Which you know is another conversation It's that a good or a bad thing producing content that people want to consume as opposed to content that you want to Produce but luckily there's a lot of crossover for me So it's not like oh my Instagram is doing so well, but I hate it. It makes me feel so shallow But you know, I it's going alright. It's mostly stuff I do But I do know when I post a certain type of image I know that that one's going to do well and this one isn't going to do so well And you live with that and it's the same for the podcast and the reviews and the videos You know, you pretty much know what's going to be popular We were talking about this earlier about how there's still this obsession though about Maybe some hangover from an old job or an old career where you were expected to do something No one's interested in it anymore But because it defined you for so long you feel you ought to do it and you're doing the other thing as well That's massively more popular and successful and commercial But for some reason you're not concentrating on that you're still doing the old stuff and that plagues me It takes up so much my time and I should it's hard to let go because it's all I know Were you saying this this is an answer to a question you didn't ask you asked What keeps me going? well As was evident I said at the beginning, you know that I love the sound my own voice I love I love talking about stuff I love finding out how things work and trying to get that across to someone I want someone to Infuse about it with me I want to be able to talk about some technology or some cool thing I've found and for someone else to go. Yeah, that is pretty cool But more importantly you've explained it or demonstrated it in a way that I get I can see it You know cuz someone who else was telling me about it last week I just couldn't know how it worked or I couldn't picture it or what I'd use it for but if you think Do you know what if I show it this way if I talk about it this way Or if I film it this way or record it this way Then people will get it and that's really satisfying and because I write and talk and film about technology It's an endlessly self-fulfilling subject. I mean, it's just it never stops Do you script your podcasts? How do you structure? What you're going to record most of it? So I have if I'm doing a video if I'm doing a piece of camera I'll write down some bullet points and I'll read them before I look to the camera and then I'll I'll do a take and It'll be terrible or I'll fluff a line or it won't be good So I'll just do it again and again and again and it will change and Eventually will become one that you're happy with you like right now I'll do my next bit and that's how I would do say like a video review Sometimes if I've got a massive amount of technical information to get across and I'm not facing the camera I'll script it and read it out in a really nice kind of recording environment. Well, it's a really nice It's just one of my rooms at home. That's got a lot of curtains Carpets because a lot of my house is floorboards and very echoey sounds terrible But if you've got a room that's really dead audio wise that really helps you've got your nice microphone No noise get close to it. So I can script those and sometimes the actual podcast Chats that I do with Doug are almost entirely off the top of my head almost entirely out of it So you wouldn't even have bullet points to structure that conversation a couple But the thing is is that when I do a review So I'm not confident doing a podcast until I've finished my tests at which point I will have completely immersed myself in that product or that subject for like two to four weeks And I've lived and breathed in done nothing else and literally you will know it back to front at that point. So someone says What does it do when you press that you go? Well, it goes into the menu B where you'll find the setting to change the timer because you know it and a week later You'll have forgotten it or see it's a very I feel it's almost like I feel knowledge or memories like I imagine like this pyramid this giant triangle with this very heavy and Balanced badly balanced knowledge wobbling like a giant brick on the top and it will slide off it will fall But for a moment, it's there. Yeah, it's there Tap into it film your show get it out and then let it slide down one side and smash Never to be remembered again, but then you've got to sit through it all in the edit So when you've taken ten takes on one section, yeah, that's because I've just been through this it's Soul destroying going through five takes. No, it's not. You go You go backwards when you just grab you just grab I take the last take yeah, because the last my last take is my best one Because I wouldn't record it again. I'm not Stanley Kubrick. I'm not going to do multiple variations of something That's perfectly go. I'm gonna time for that. I don't get paid for this. So yeah, your last take is you is the one You're gonna use so what you do is you start at the end of your recording and you work backwards And then you're right now I'm on the on that next Subject and then you cut it and then you ignore all of the ones which went wrong and then you on and then you find the one What I'll do is I'll leave a gap or I'll clap so that there's a spike There's a visual clue that that's where I need to go to and then I'll know that that that's the that's the good take So it's actually pretty quick to edit. No, you don't play through your bad ones. This is a glimpse into your psyche as well So you've got the five takes and you've grabbed the last one. Yeah Do you hold on to all of your recordings? No, it's too much too big. I used to I used to But you see so now Neil so now I'm filming everything in 4k and the files are so immense that Literally, I've got room for one project on my laptop at a time Whereas five years ago I'd have ten by ten last projects now I need to do a project clear it off completely and I need to archive it somewhere so what I'll do is I'll render it at the best possible quality and I'll just keep that so I keep the edited version in good quality so that if I do need to use parts of it I take it from that. No one notices. So you don't keep your rushes? Never. Not now. There's too much of it That's good. And do you see you have like a reference version that you hoard? Yes Because you don't trust that where you've put it up online that that might disappear You've got a backup. Well the interesting thing about doing the audio podcasting hosting if you use a host like say Libsyn or whatever they'll take an mp3 file At the file at which the quality which you upload it. So they're not they're not modifying it But YouTube and Vimeo will you know, they they modified Facebook massively so and so Once you've uploaded it to them They will render it in their own engines and it will be worse quality so that even if you then download it Which they don't always let you do Obviously there are ways to do it But if you then download it it will bear no relation to the original it won't look it Won't look anywhere new is good. So no always definitely keep keep the one that at least the one that you upload Keep that one. Do you keep one copy on a on a hard drive? So I have them so as a bit of a background when I first started in journalism It was for a computer magazine which I specialised on Imaging for so when digital cameras first came out say look, you know, I could review these because I'm a photographer No one else wanted to do them. So I do printers monitors scanners Cameras and and and imaging software like the first versions of Photoshop But it also meant I was still exposed to loads of IT stuff loads of technical stuff So I was very familiar with drives obviously and servers and what I use at home is a NAS a network attached storage device Which is basically a server That allows you to store stuff and you can configure them so you can put multiple drives in them So that if one drive breaks then the other one still got the data. It's mirrored. It's backed up It there's redundancy So I've got a NAS where I keep where I keep everything But of course the NAS isn't immune to fire flood or theft someone could lift that steel it could burn down So I have additional backups. So I have a portable hard drive that I keep in a different house A different house. Yeah, because what happens if your house burns down? Yeah, what are you going to do? I kept my backups in the same room You see you stuffed it's got to be in a different location. You could use the cloud the cloud. What we use called the internet What we use for the ARP in it the cloud the internet You put it on that with audio It's easy because the files are small But if you're doing a podcast and you're doing some decent production values, then just keep an mp3 of it Keep an uncompressed WAV version You know keep her or at least a flak version so that you've got a good quality one that you can then do a lower quality Version of for sharing those files aren't big. Yes, they keep it in as many places as you can You know keep lots of lots of duplicates of it But most importantly of all make sure one of them is off-site Whether it's in the cloud or at a friend's house. Are you okay for time? Yeah. Yeah These are brilliant these tips are Really handy and if they sound like they're pretty hard and some yeah and some of them for example Vimeo If you're a Vimeo Pro member, which is about 50 bucks a year You can upload videos Which of course have audio in them or audio files and it keeps an original version that you can download And I use it to provide sample videos for my reviews So I'll say look, you know this new Canon or Nikon camera can film video Here's how it looks and you can download it download the original clips You can see exactly how it looks and it's it's they don't change it They don't compress it. They do compress versions for streaming or for downloading But they also still keep the original version. So you could in fact use that as a backup as well Flickr does that too for photos. It keeps an original version if you've got the pro accounts They keep original versions It's a bit of a gamble because you're entrusting your backup to a third party that could go bust that could change their terms and conditions They could say we're only going to do this now for $500 a year or we're going to do it But actually we didn't tell you that as of last year we started compressing it You may or may not notice or be affected by that But I always like to have an uncompressed or a mildly compressed version especially for audio And for your audio podcast do you use a podcast hosting company? Yes, so I use Libsyn Which I pay $15 a month for I think 250 megabytes worth of storage It's quite a lot of shows if it's just in audio format Even my long rambly ones you can upload in a decent quality My sensing you feel slightly odd about Well, I do because the thing the thing is is that The the podcast hosts are very good at giving you a completely compliant RSS feed which then means The podcast aggregators like Apple and iTunes will go yep, you're above board I'll take you and if your end goal is to appear on iTunes, which it is it should be your end goal Then you want to make that as easy as possible But there will be I'm sure cheaper and better solutions for that The the reason I'm sort of squinting and looking a little uncomfortable with it is that so YouTube If you are YouTube partner and they pay you they pay you a very very small amount of money I mean, you know like about a dollar per thousand views So you can work out what you need and that's that's in a an area that I'm involved in which is quite commercial You know photography cameras when people are buying a camera these days they're spending a thousand pounds So that's that's quite valuable if you're writing about cookery Or gardening maybe you're not going to dollar per thousand. You might be getting fifty cents a thousand You might be getting more You know, it's difficult to tell it does vary because it's biddable But that's the sort of amount of money we're talking about it's not much But it's more than libson Pays me in fact I'm paying libson to host whereas I'm not paying youtube to host Which is why again what I mentioned earlier so many people will upload onto youtube Because it's a way to monetize it. It's it's free of charge And it's easily found Do you think it's going to just gazing into the future? Because we're recording this at the end of 2018. I've got this gut feeling that There's a surge of podcasts Happening or surge of interest in podcasts And that the the area still hasn't got to the point where videos were with youtube when Actually, there are so many of them Pre-roll ads can now be a thing. Do you think that's going to happen with podcasts? Yeah, definitely eventually Definitely, they need to be monetizable in some way and people have the only way you can do it is with sponsorship Which is basically getting your own pre-roll ads. Yeah, either getting either phoning someone up Becoming big enough that they phone you up or going to an agency and that's the nice thing again about youtube Is that it's all done for you they take most of the money But at least there is money involved, you know, they've worked it out and they now have you know Ways that you can avoid advertising on youtube by paying a subscription And they now have a patreon type thing where you can donate to support people and a a mechanism for you to provide Bonus content stuff like that, you know, they're making it They're making it possible heart is hard But they're making it possible to have a career or at least make a bit of money as a creator whereas On the pure audio podcasting side There isn't a platform for it that that you can monetize very easily unless you've got sponsorship Which is really hard. I mean You're saying we're recording it towards the end of 2018 without Ruining this video audio's podcast chance as evergreen content. It's black friday Everything's discounted today and I'm I'm did a post earlier where I said Here's my black friday deal All of my content all of my videos The thousands of reviews that I've written the millions of words I've written today free of charge Everything I've ever done free of charge and for every other day of the year as well more for me Because it is You know, so it's it's sort of interesting that that's that's my black friday deal It's the same deal every day. It's hard to make money from this It is but this comes back to the very first question, which is why do you podcast? I I think there are because there's very little monetization There are other interesting reasons like wanting to Prove eminence in a field Or wanting to showcase For instance, your podcast might make An audience member more likely to come to your Well, that's the dream. That's the dream is that you like so many things or by your book Yeah, we don't link to in the description None of us have got One job anymore. We all have 10 jobs and and for any of them to be successful They should kind of feed off each other or promote each other. So yes You're not making any money from your podcast But if you're talking as an expert on a subject and enough people follow you and appreciate you for that Then that then you may be able to sell them a book or a workshop or something else But you need to build one to be able to do the other And I'm I'm quite far down that route and it's still I have to say it's still not a fantastic career money-wise But it's fantastic career If you are a creator to be able to create stuff you like Is a fantastic way to spend your time and I love that. I mean that that drives me massively You know, don't get into this to become rich you might do but you probably won't Get into it because you enjoy it and also no one's going to listen to your podcast or or watch your videos If you're not passionate about something I think you have to be passionate about it But yeah equally and it is maybe a bit shallow, but What you've kind of brushed upon Is very important to me which is peer recognition and respect from Other people also people in the industry You kind of want them to be talking about you behind your back going Dad, did you see what gondi was really good? Damn it. He's so much better than I am I wish I was as good as he was And so good-looking too you wouldn't believe he's 70 years old, but his body language on the number two is a problem I unsubbed and disliked him for that. I hope he doesn't realize it was me when you record your podcast episode Do you post produce it in terms of eq and compression? No, because I already sound fantastic No, because I've got a really high pitched voice that you can't do anything with it doesn't respond to eq It's like a photo where you I'll just turn the brightness. Why isn't it getting brighter? My voice doesn't I've got a terrible voice for audio and it doesn't respond well But the best thing I can do eq wise is to do it in camera in recording because this is my My philosophy as you know about photography is not to do any post processing I try and get the result I want as I take the picture and the same applies for video and audio I want to get it in the camera or in the recording. So if I want to sound boomy bassier nicer I'll just get closer to the microphone and I know that when I'm recording at home Um in my quiet room the microphone that I use I'm very familiar with how it sounds how I should Use it how I should talk to it how I should present to it um distance wise volume wise Recording level wise what I can do and I really I'm very pleased with the sound of those because some podcasts they have that heavily compressed radio sound But you're saying if you use what what microphone do you use? Well, yeah, it's interesting. You say I actually did a Video which your viewers and listeners may find interesting It was comparing two of the most popular microphones for podcasting both from this australian microphone company road everyone uses road microphones They're really nice But they do a million different microphones so which one should you get and a lot of them are usb microphones They're designed to be plugged into a computer You don't need a sound card or an xlar jack or power or anything all comes off the usb And they're designed specifically for podcasting because it goes straight into your computer Which is what you're using to record it And broadcast it so the usb mics I tested the Road podcaster, which is a usb version of the procaster, which is an xlar mic that looks like your archetypal radio presenters microphone that's designed to go on a boom arm on an angle poise arm that goes right in front of your face Coming up next that sort of microphone and it's very compressed um, and the sound is very Radio broadcaster type then there's the nt usb which is more for recording music of Spoken vocals like audio books or if you're singing so it's more full range full frequency response So it's not colored at all. It's extremely accurate. That's what I use Which goes against what I said earlier, which is that because I don't have a very bassy deep voice Maybe I should be using the compressed one, but I find I sound better on the more accurate one I've got both of them and you can hear them, you know, uh on that video and you compare Compare them and see what you think but you prefer the more natural I prefer the the cleaner because I'm also a hi-fine note as well and to me I prefer something that sounds accurate And that nt usb. I love that microphone. There's some really good deals on it as well It also responds well to being on a tripod or a mini tabletop tripod, which is what I normally have on me Whereas the podcaster you can put it on a tripod You can hand hold it But really is some microphone that wants to go in a shop mount on an angle poise Which says scoot which is good to a desk. Yeah, it's it's a studio mic Whereas the nt usb You know, you could take it away with you and I have recorded with it in hotel rooms and I have taken it away with me Do you record the video separately then so you don't squirt the microphone into the camera? No, because it's a usb microphone. So the cameras have got 3.5 mil analog jacks So they don't have a digital usb. They have got usb jacks on but not for input not for inputting sound. I wish they did But they don't Um, I suggest that to the company. So why don't you do that? That could be quite fun. They're like, what? what So what I'll genuinely do generally do is I need to synchronize the sound From the camera and the microphone now if you're recording a skype conversation or hangout It's easily it's already synced because you've chosen that microphone as your sound source You know in your preferences on your computer. So it's already sync synchronized that that's no problem But if you're using a separate camera and the mic's not plugged into it, you need to sync it So you do a clapperboard and I just clap Three times at the beginning obviously once they're both started recording and you line those up in your editing software later At high magnification you nudge one back and forth until they line up You mute that one and you keep the good one going and it it's in sync for the rest takes a few seconds I've got so much I want to ask you. This is brilliant. Um, do you prefer Sitting up Standing up or sitting down. I've because this is something I've heard from broadcasting I sit down. I sit down. But if I'm on the phone, I stand up And if I'm interviewing someone on the phone, I stand up because yeah, you do you feel stronger Yeah, you have more attack you have more freedom You know just in terms of your performance level. This is the weird thing I worked for a branded content agency who were used to working in print and It was a shock to them when they started making video and audio content because What you're actually capturing is an actual performance as much as the informational content you're actually capturing in real time a human giving a performance and it's very difficult to you know, if a photo doesn't work out very well, you can Touch it up with some software or If the words if you need to lock 100 words off, that's that's fine But with a with a performance you need to actually get the person in a real location In sync with the equipment. So the equipment's got to work. You you can't tweak or fix it as easily afterwards and That's kind of what's exciting about podcasts is that there is an authentic A real life event has happened that you're capturing I would also suggest technically to use the same microphones as well Because if the sound changes It's the same reason why people grade The video footage which is where you color it to try and match different cameras Because when you go from one camera to another camera and the colors look different You're like now if you don't do any filming you won't realize this because you think well, it's in color I've set the color. You see the black and white or color two color cameras Start recording and you look at them. You're like, oh my god, they look completely different. You know forgetting about lenses coverage Sensor size depth of field noise dynamic range forget about all of that and you shouldn't forget about any of that But just putting that to the side Red doesn't look red on the other one And let's say you're both on a you're both talking in front of grass As we're doing let's say we've got two cameras one on you and one on me We've got the grass behind it when we cut from you to me and back again if that color grass changes People are going to see it And they'll go why is that dark green and why is it going light dark green? I'm really distracted And it's the stuff like that and it's the same that applies to audio It's got to be the same the same microphone the same levels same volume You do all of your audio editing in video editing. Yes, I do all in premiere adobe premiere Is and you have always done that and you always will Yeah, because it may not be the best tool for doing audio you'd use I think adobe do an audio I don't even know what it's called. I think it's audition But they do one that is specifically for audio But premiere is what I know because I use it for editing video and invariably a lot of my Audio content has a video element to it. So yeah, and you can export as an audio file from there So yeah, you can export as mp3 or wav or flak and once you've put your episode out there Do you keep an eye on how the audio podcast is doing in terms of downloads? Yeah in terms of stats Yeah lip sync lip sync does that for you? Yeah, they they yeah, they they provide Some statistics for you Not as much as youtube actually gives you youtube gives you a ton of stats. Does that affect what you do? Do you know you can be driven by Results like that an analysis, but you can spend a long time trying to find a trend Only to find that it it was just coincidence It's interesting but If you could apply it to something Something in the future so much of what I do when I post stuff This is the interesting thing about podcasts Now you see a lot of what I post say a review a written review or a photo on instagram Even believe it or not is very the success of it very can can be highly influenced by the exact time that you post it There's exact time of day and day of the week particularly in terms of the u.s audience Like for me because I've got a a lot of people who follow me in the u.s And that's where a lot of my market is there's no point me posting something at 11 o'clock in the morning in the UK because they're not going to see it by the time they wake up that content is eight year eight eight hours old And it's certainly not going to be at the top of their streams So you need to post something when your viewers or listeners are listening The beautiful thing about podcasts is that most people subscribe to a feed and are told when there's a new one So it's not so time dependent, but for the other things especially on youtube When you release a video on youtube is can be can really impact it So I look at the stats for that and you have best times For different types of content, you know Wednesday afternoon might be good for this A sunday morning could be disastrous for one thing but good for another Friday night saturday weekends are terrible for written content Um, even though people say they love settling down with a newspaper on a sunday So they're obviously in the mindset of a long read as the guardian would call it But they don't want to read one of my long articles on a sunday, but they will on a monday but So it's disastrous to post any of my reviews over the weekend, but youtube doesn't seem to care YouTube does can do well at the weekend. So I won't hold something back If I finish something on friday night if it's a big written review There's no way i'm going to publish it on friday night. It'd be disastrous, but if it's youtube video you post it when it's ready Get it out there because it starts gaining google juice. Yes Yeah, and people drill back if they if they discover your feed and they like you They do Start to drill back Yeah, the other the other way to to get a a lot of traffic as well And this is this applies for images as well as for audio and videos try and get on other people's playlists We're not playlist hashtags and things like people follow hashtags say on instagram So if you tag your photo park or brighton or whatever People will be following some of those hashtags and they'll they'll start liking your content They might not follow you but they will engage with you which is you know still worth something If you had to isolate it, what is your favorite aspect of making the podcast feeling important But the bit I enjoyed most I think bizarrely is I like all of it. I really like editing. I really like snipping out or Making you sound really good and you guys sound like a complete idiot Resizing me If I sound like a complete idiot I was actually really I was sublime really erudite just really articulate. So if I sound like a It just happens to have that filter on it's no, is there is there a part of the process that you get really big kick from Yeah, when you when you get something across well Where I was talking to about earlier when you're trying to get across a piece of information Like you're asking me questions. I don't feel that I've answered many of them very well But if I'd had I'd be like, I'm really good. I said that I got that point across So I described it well. I get a lot out of that And if it's technically good, you know, if you if you look at it and you're like Yeah, I wanted to show that or say that and it I managed it. I nailed it So I enjoyed that that part of it and you know it when you're doing it and you feel good you feel good about it the editing process I feel I resent it a lot of time actually and that's the other nice thing about doing it as a hangout Is that you try and record it as if it were live You know you make a mistake just keep going. I mean, I did so much cheap TV when I was younger where people would say I'd say it's not live. They say it might as well be Because we ain't stopping Gordon, you're very self-effacing. I think you are really good at this You are really but you you are because you're so driven by the the process you're so driven. So you're into your subject which is High-end photography and gadgets. Yeah But beyond that you've you've got this real you've got this thing in your head that you've I think you feel this needs to want to Explain it to other people and to want to help other people Navigate their way through it Because they haven't had the time or the inclination to drill into the subject as deeply as possible and it I don't know. It's just It's just really exciting time at the moment. Isn't it? I mean I It's it's like Friday. It's very exciting. Is there a more exciting day? It's gonna kick off But isn't it isn't it brilliant because when we started Everything was so gated. Everything was so locked down And yeah, so put something up on a Friday night because you feel like it is that's pretty cool Well, it's extremely liberating for us because you say we're old enough to remember when that wasn't a case that if you wanted to so I remember meeting neil Remember meeting you In the third and first person at the radio station at our university And I thought so neil's a bit younger than me and I remember going in I wasn't I was only doing like one show a week Neal was there all the time and so I thought You know, he's like one of the pros and he seems to know what he's doing and I was I was in awe of you Well, I was in awe of you because of michael and gordon's nut hearts One of the best Radio shows on ukc radio 999 kilohertz. Well, that's when I realized so my best friend mike at university He had a radio voice And I didn't have I've never had a radio voice and I've done radio with some people or tv And suddenly as soon as they like somebody going Oh, hello, and uh, well, no, they'll they'll be like, oh, I was shopping today And they'll go, are we going live? Okay, three two one. Hi everyone and you'd be like, what? What is what on earth is going on and it really you know, you're like You completely knocked off balance because they've got radio voice. I might have had a brilliant radio voice He had a good normal voice as well. Um so I met neal at the radio station met you at the radio station and university radio or university magazines newspapers were the kind of accessible means of Broadcasting of writing of investigating journalism of actually trying to put content out there that you thought was of a certain standard And then as soon as you left university and you didn't have access to the radio station or of the university magazine or newspaper anymore You're like, well, I quite fancied that how do I get into it? And in the early 90s when I was thrust upon the professional world Well, you work for the bbc or you work for itn or you work for You know, you work for a proper massive media company sky Uh, and guess what they don't have a great deal of jobs and guess what everyone wants them Or mtv, you know that sort of thing, you know, I'm gonna talk about I want to talk about videos music videos Really good luck because there's only two jobs and there's 10 million people wanting them And that was it, you know media jobs were really really hard and like you say, you know, you had to Go to one of these massive companies and they knew that they had lots of people after them Fantastic if you managed to do you managed to do it I kind of freelanced a bit for some of them and it was you felt incredibly special doing it You know to go to somewhere like tv center bbc tv center was such a thrill But then now like 10 years after that Being able to just do it yourself is phenomenal and I would always say to people so I started off on magazines and As I became more senior in that role, I started interviewing people for jobs And I'd say to them so you want to be a journalist and they say, yeah I say, oh, so what have you done about that so far and they went well, I'm here Say, so have you done any journalism yet? So no, no, this would be my first job I said well, you could be a journalist without doing it for a job Why don't you just find something out and write it down or record it? And they'd go they'd look at you like you like you from outer space And nowadays when there is an outlook because there wasn't the internet then or not as easy to get on the internet But you could still put together I put together a magazine when I was 10 years old at school about video games And used to sell it for 5p to my mates and it's a hand-write everyone I used to do screenshots they used to draw them and pull them in with felt pens You know and and sell it so I was a journalist then I was producing content And that's what I want to see from people, you know when they're going for jobs And people now say I want to I want to get into broadcasting or I want to want to have a podcast Like you found you can get so caught up in it. Oh, am I good enough? Have I got the right gear? For god's sake just start doing it do it bad. That's how that's how you get good at doing something You do it a lot just do it as much as you can you will get way better Don't go on a course unless it's one of mine I'm fully available at cameralabs.com Well do go on a course if you want but it's not going to make you you know just start doing it If you want to become a journalist just start being a journalist if you want to be a broadcaster just start broadcasting And then the day that you do you are approached by the bbc or a job appears and they say so, you know What have you been doing you go well for the past five years? I've actually had this really successful youtube channel or whatever They'll be impressed at that point you might actually be making some money from it You might not even need that other job. So yeah, just just do it You know in the classic words of that sports apparel manufacturer That's exactly why I started the podcast producers podcast Even if you haven't started one yet you are a podcast producer and So thank you so much for sharing The inner world of camera labs.com almost as a metaphor the sun is setting On my career Over to you now kids What um if you had to title this episode how where would you start how would you Because I suppose you the titles of your podcast episodes are quite linked to the one with the two grumpy old men and a Nikon How would you how where would I start with titling this episode well for seo Yeah, no, or even just if you're sort of scrolling seven tips for podcasting success It can never be 10 if you notice that yeah, well apparently you can't have 10 top tips now the search engines Seven seven Seven best podcasting tips by industry veterans Nice they sound old. I want to hear from a veteran. No ninjas not a podcasting veteran Seven facts about gordon lang Seven habits of highly effective podcasters That's the one. Thank you. You're welcome What do podcast producers do podcast producers podcast cue my daughter Can you please help my daddy get 1000 subscribers? Just click on his face. Thanks. Bye