 Yusef Zadeh to appear on our screen, because that's important. There she is. Hi, Perone. Hi. All right. The team is all here. So we have, of course, decided to shorten this session. So I'm going to both honor what just happened and breathe through that in transitioning into this new convo. And also sort of make sure that we hit all of the lovely, amazing people and their expertise and experiences on this stage. So I'm Evernochken. I see him his pronouns. I'm a Monopma board member, director, writer, translator, arts leader at large right now. Very happily. And I just want to acknowledge that as the Monopma board, it was actually, we really thought about, as was mentioned earlier, canceling this weekend of gatherings because it just felt so weird to talk about American theater in the context of what's happening in the world. And we decided not to. We really decided that this communal space was very important and that our way of resisting is to create art and talk about art and make our artistic voices heard and advocate for ourselves. And I feel like we're really going from a conversation with Palestinian artists to this conversation and it's a little bit of a whiplash. So thank you for being on this journey with us. I don't want to speak for you all, but I'm going to probably take a moment to find my bearings in this reality. Oh, do I have printed? Excellent. Thank you. I just want to make sure that I'm getting all our acknowledgments correct. Thank you, thank you, thank you. So we're here as part of Reorient Festival of Short Plays at Golden Thread, which I am a very proud affiliated artist. And I want to just thank both Art Action and Golden Thread for hosting this amazing gathering. I also want to acknowledge that we're on the unceded lands of the Ramayitush Oloni people who despite centuries of colonization and violence and genocide persist today and are inactive efforts to preserve and revive their culture. And of course, as we acknowledge that, we also want to acknowledge the violence and genocide going on in Gaza and West Bank right now and all of the violence that a lot of our communities are facing, including Armenians, Jewish folks, all of us sort of holding a great deal of rage and grief. And I just want to say that that is the space we're in. We have sort of shared a lot of community agreements. And one of them, two of them that really resonate with me, I'll uplift is make space for grief and rage. So I just want to say that we're in that space. If we can't hold that space here, where the heck are we going to hold it? And also I want to say that take care of yourself. It's okay to take a break. So I also want to uplift that reality that at any point in this conversation or any of the conversations coming up, if you need to take a break, we will not take it personally. So I introduce myself and I want to just go around these three amazing panelists and ask them to introduce themselves. And I would love you to say your name, pronouns if you feel comfortable. I'd love you to share as you define it your relationship to the Middle Eastern North African region. And I also would love to know any organizational affiliations or however you want to define your place in the American theater. I'll just say everyone else can hear him his director writer and most recently in the context of this conversation about MENA leadership of larger national theaters. I was the Interim Artistic Director of Oregon Shakespeare Festival this year and where I had been for four and a half seasons the Associate Artistic Director and got to support the incredible vision of Nataki Garrett. So that's sort of my space in this conversation. Raymond. Hello, hello, hello. I'm Raymond. I use he and they and I'm the Executive Artistic Director at Cleveland Public Theater. I am Armenian and I am proudly a theater maker. I love that name and that so much time was spent thinking about it. It just simplifies it. So thank you for that. Hi everyone. I'm in G. Camel. I use she, her pronouns, but I'll respond to any pronouns used in love. I, what's the next question? I'm Egyptian. I was born in Kuwait. So third culture person for those of you who identify with that definition or that classification. I am the new managing director at a small professional theater company in Seattle called Arts West. And prior to that, I was at Seattle Rep running a program called Public Works, which was a community based theatrical practice in a major regional theater. Hi everyone. I'm Perone Yousafzada. My pronouns are she or hers. I'm zooming in from the land of the Dakota people and the Anishinaabe Ojibwe people also known as Minneapolis, Minnesota. I am the interim associate artistic director at playwright center. And I'm also a director and educator. I identify as Iranian and Jewish and the child of Iranian Jewish immigrants. And also, I am very much a child of the suburbs of Chicago and the Midwest in general, and it's nice to be with all of you. So I want to get us started. In our earlier session, I sort of named that there has been a moment over the last five years right before the pandemic, although there's certainly been a lot of leaders of MENA descent in theaters all over. There was sort of a uplifting of MENA leadership around the country of national theaters, theaters with scope or not necessarily focused on Middle Eastern work exclusively. And then in recent times, some of us are staying, some of us are moving on because it's not quite tenable to hold those positions at this time, specifically possibly with our intersectional identities. So when I asked to hold this panel, it was really a conversation about what does it mean to be a leader in the theater right now? What does it mean to be a theater leader of Middle Eastern North Africans who are on a descent right now? And what do we need to make sure that these leaders succeed? Because I'm a big believer that we need to be fighting the fight in all corners, and if these folks are fighting this corner, how do we as a community help them succeed? Because their successes are success. I want to start us off with the question of our backgrounds. You just heard very different. Some of us are immigrants. Some of us are born here. Some of us are Armenian, Egyptian, Iranian, Turkish. You know, it's all over. And I'm sort of curious about what made you take on the mantle of leadership? How did you find yourself here? Why on earth would you do that? And yeah, I just want to sort of get a little bit of a, what is the calling at this time? And I'm going to start with Inji because you laughed. I laughed because I asked myself that question sometimes. I've been in my current job for five months as managing director. And I think after the first week or the first two weeks when like the joy of the success of the achievement wore off, and I saw the financial situation in front of us, I was like, oh, why did I do this? But I mean, like all the anxiety of being responsible for an organization aside, I think the reason is because for me, I feel pretty solid in my values as a person. And I think they are deeply informed by my cultural identity and my path and my journey to where I am now. Just physically, not even in terms of my career. And I know that there is a way for the theater to feel better for people like me. Like young Inji who started her way in the theater. And so it feels like an experiment to me. Like, can I utilize the values that I have to enact a better, more positive theatrical opportunity for other folks? Yeah, that's why. Perrone, do you want to go? Sure. I mean, it connects a lot to what Inji was saying as far as the sort of calling around it. And for me, it all does go back to how I fell in love with theater. And that was going to see Broadway musicals when they came to Chicago. My parents would take me not knowing that I was actually going to fall in love with it and not become a doctor much to their chagrin. And, you know, and I fell in love with the art form and the way I was transported in watching these shows. But I also accepted on some level that no one looked like me. No one had a story like mine or a name like mine. And after many years of freelancing, I started to feel like dropping into an organization and stirring things up to whatever extent I could and directing the show I was doing and doing the advocacy around that that I could in that organization. It didn't feel for me like it fully allowed me to bring that experience and vision and hope for what the theater can be. And so I transitioned from freelancing to artistic leadership. I've also learned a lot of hard lessons around what the conditions need to be for me to be able to thrive and persist and continue the hard work. Well, we can talk about that more later. But yeah, it comes back to Little Perone. Now it's very much for my own daughter, Mariam, and for really all the children to have a theater to grow up in where they feel seen and heard so that we're leaving something behind that's better than what we had, which I think is the hope of any generation. Yeah. That's super inspiring. I think for me, I thought I was going to or what I thought I wanted was to run a small little ensemble company and just do my artwork. And I had a brief stint running a little bit larger organization and I hated it and I said I'm never going to do that again. Pouring all of your heart and soul into other people's art and most of the time they're somehow disappointed or mad at you at the end. And that just really sucked. So, but at one point Cleveland Public Theater, which had been one of my artistic homes at that point, was really on the verge of collapse and falling apart. And it's mission, which is to nurture compassion and to raise consciousness through groundbreaking performance and life changing education programs. And I know those words groundbreaking and life changing are using a lot of mission statements, but like it's true. And I just couldn't sit by and see that happen. And the theater was sort of simultaneously shifting to try to be like other theaters. And I said, if this thing's going to fall apart, I really want it to fall apart doing something just wildly deeply in that mission. And so I threw my hat in the ring and the board said yes. And that's what started me on it. But that's, I think I really plan to do it for like three or four years and then go to grad school or something. Still, maybe in three or four years I'll be in grad school. I always say that. But what's really kept me there is the sense of being able to support this work of, I'm sorry that we've lost the amazing leader of this song. But this idea of the light within and I know that sounds super corny. But for me, that's really the truth that we all have this light inside of us and to support that. And to be able to get up in front of people and put things in front of people that just acknowledges that we're all artists. And maybe the calling for artists to awaken that within. Thank you. And I'll sort of speak briefly. I've always been a little bossy from very little, I think. And I've learned that that can be used for good or evil. And through my upbringing at Golden Thread under the tutelage of Taraji Ghizarian, I learned that there's a lot of ways bossiness can be used for good. And in a real moment of community immersion and joy of finding myself, my spine, my artistry within this really beautifully held community space, I also had a strong sort of pull towards the big bad unknown white theater and that I could do it better. And I think a lot of our impulses has to sort of, it's that imposter syndrome intercut with that, you're the best. Belief that somehow you're going to do it better than anyone else. And I think that sort of has been nourished in me from my parents to a lot of my mentors, including Nataki Garrett. And I will say that in Perone, it really resonated with me. Oregon Shakespeare Festival, where I was for the last five years, thousands upon thousands upon thousands of students come and see those shows. And I watched every day the impact of my decision and my work of who gets to be on that stage and what they get to do and how they get to live and what that meant for those kids. And I was like, okay, for this, I'll work 180 hours a week. So I'm in a really specific space of leadership as service and leadership as future building right now. And it's a tough time, but what does that mean for us? So the question, the next question I have is, can you share with us good, bad and ugly, everything in between? What has been surprising about stepping into your leadership position and for any of us that have been doing this for a minute? What has been a shift that you're noticing right now of what's expected of you? And Perone, I'll go to you first. I feel like I'm in a very different space now in terms of how I answer this question because I work at the Playwright Center. It's just a very different thing to be in a development organization that is a service organization with playwrights at the center than to be at a producing theater because we don't sell tickets and we don't rely on that kind of revenue, that kind of earned income in the way that other producing theaters might. So I might speak more to my previous experiences in producing theaters for a moment in terms of what I encountered, if that's okay, Everyn. I think what I experienced was that there was a surface level call for invitation to leaders of color and hope for greater diversity, equity and inclusion, but that once I was inside of those organizations, what I faced was a daily pressure to corroborate white ideas, and I didn't do that. And so, you know, I fought the good fight and I was proud of the progress that I was able to provoke, support, more often provoke. But ultimately I think what I learned was that I need to be at an organization where there's a deep buy-in that doesn't require my presence solely to maintain it. And that there has to be in the board or whatever governing body of that organization, a deep buy-in there as well. And the sense of sort of being in some kind of adversarial relationship between board and staff or staff and subscribers, like it just doesn't work. And so there has to be more of a collective sense that we're on a journey together. And what I can say about being at the Playwright Center is that I feel very fortunate to be at an organization that however imperfect is continually interrogating these values. And because Service to Playwrights is at the center of what we do, how we do that more equitably and inclusively is inextricably linked to the mission. So it doesn't, there isn't that sort of tension of like, but we want to support writers, but we have to do Christmas Carol, like that's not happening. So I'm in a very different place with it now. I guess what I've learned is that as I've gotten older, and also as we continue to encounter a very difficult and cruel world, I'm only, I'm willing to fight the good fight, but not as an army of one. And I'm willing to advance the cause and have the difficult conversations. And I'm okay with disagreement and I'm okay with like hashing it out in a staff meeting, but not if I'm in a place where we're having a flat earth argument about whether or not racism is real, or whether or not the things that matter matter. As long as we have shared values and it's a question of how we get there and not where are we going? I'm down. That's what I've learned. I guess I've learned like, some people would call it pick your battles and I guess I'm, I guess the way I think of it is like, how to channel my energy, most productively, and also do the difficult work, but with some grace and ease. Did I answer your question, everyone. When you asked the question, I had no idea what to say for a moment. And I'm still not sure about this shift. He said, I think there's a lot of shift that's happened internally in theater, but for me, just what keeps driving me more and more is at Cleveland Public Theater as we are doing different kinds of programming, just this hunger, this like, almost like an addiction of getting to be in an audience when you sense viscerally that what's happening on stage is somehow essential to the people who are in the audience. We do a play with homeless adults who are in treatment for drug and alcohol addiction every year, and to hear a character on stage say, this is too much for me, I'm going to use. And the visceral response from that audience of like, no. And you just know like, what's happening on stage matters to that audience so much. Or with Maserat Cleven at Adobe, you know, talking to people afterwards, you know, in tears saying, you don't know what it's like, you know, I'm a doctor or I'm a lawyer or I'm in business. You don't know what it's like to be in my fifties and for the first time in my life, hear my language spoken on stage in the United States. And it's just those things to me are just, like I said, it's like an addiction. Like I just want to be in that room more and more, where those kinds of transformative experiences are happening. And I would also say there's this interesting shift, I think for me, I think I spent so much of my time wanting to prove that I was professional. And because the theater did a horrible thing in our history where we differentiated professional theater from amateur by calling it professional and community. And I'm just like, f all that, I want to be more in community. I want to have amateurs on stage with professionals. I want to blend all of this. And I think for me that's where the most exciting things are happening. I just want to flip that for a second. This whole idea that amateur means less capable is like so insulting. When in reality an amateur has just as much capacity and capability as a quote unquote professional artist, it's just the professional artist is getting paid for that work. And oftentimes the amateur is not. So it's like really heart centered work. But because I was so deeply moved by that comment, I have forgotten the question. Can you please repeat it? What has been surprising about taking on the leadership position and has there been a shift in the ways that what's being expected of you as a leader at this time? Oh, you answered it perfectly. So like I said, it's been five months. So I don't. I mean, yes. Okay, true. I've been leading from whatever position I'm in as best I can. And I think that what Perron you were saying also really spoke to me, which is that this sort of like parroting the white leadership expectation was definitely something that I've had to navigate through as a young professional. And I think that was I'm going to acknowledge that that was rooted in my family's socialization. So as an Egyptian, I was raised by a woman who was deeply informed by the colonialist British mentality. So she very much was Eurocentric in the way that she raised me. And it was like, yes, you need to be proud of your identity. You need to be proud of your Egyptianist. You are Egyptian. And the way the Europeans do it is really important. The way the Europeans do it has like defined what we think is excellent. So I think a lot of my coming into myself and coming into myself as a leader has been to kind of deconstruct that and decolonize my own socialization and education. And I'll also say that I've forgotten my next point. That's what I'm going to say. Are you going to answer this? Thank you. I love that moderating the moderator. It's nice. It's almost be a stage full of leaders. So I would say that what where I'm at I'm such in the midst of a journey is how it feels. So I don't have like wisdom to drop but more sort of like where I'm at right now, which is I've always been a bit of an orator, which is the word I'm using to say I talk a lot. It just sounds better. But really trying to find articulation of what my community needs, what I need, how to inspire people. And for a long I think I stepped into leadership with the idea that that was the most important part. And my experience at OSF and Golden Thread and KQED and everywhere I've gotten to lead from various positions is I've actually realized that the change I need made is a lot of times quite invisible and not that interesting to talk about. My biggest gift that I've given OSF is that their negotiation and contracting process is completely done by artistic folks and completely differently with radical hospitality for the needs of artists, especially specifically artists of color. It's not in any press release. This is maybe the first time I've actually said it out loud in a room full of people who might care about that. But I realized that the harm that I was trying to fight against for Southern Oregon harm for bodies of color, femme humans, queer humans, a lot of it was starting before they even showed up while they were trying to get fucking paid by the organization. And it got to a place where I was like, I rather than making a speech and fighting the subscribers about how the contracting process is changing, I'm going to go ahead and get my incredible team together and we're going to figure this out. Is it perfect? No, but is it a whole hundred times better? Yes. And it's going to be better forever because you can't go back once you've changed that. So I'm sort of in a real space of as a leader, what is the systemic, a lot of times invisible, not word and statement based change that we need to make in the field? And how can that be the vision rather than big, exciting words that make you feel really good? Not to say words aren't important. We all know, I mean we're theater people, it's really important. But what is the change that's actually on the ground and impacts the day-to-day lives of people is sort of where I'm at. And there's so much that needs to change in the American theater, especially sort of these bigger companies of course, on that front. And I just want to ditto the community audience conversation just because I am no longer making work that the audience actively does not want. I'm going to go make it elsewhere. That's sort of my prone. I mean we've talked about, we are in agreement on that front. You cannot fight the fight by yourself against the whole room. And now I want to bring it to where in the Mina Theater Makers Alliance meeting, and we're all holding our identities in all sorts of ways, visibly and invisibly. Can you speak a little bit about being a person of your heritage and background, however you define that, in these leadership positions? And I would love you to both think of it as what has been some of the opportunities and the victories that have maybe come out of that. And what were some of the challenges that you expected or were surprising to you as you stepped into these various positions throughout your career, but also of course most recently in these executive positions. And I'll say that I was not expecting to be so invisible is my offering is that I've never been in more rooms where I was told I was not as when I stepped into leadership positions. And the amount of time I had to spend to prove that I was the various things I was saying I was according to other people's understandings of those things as when I was at OSF. So that is what I would offer was a big challenge for me. Raymond, I'm going to go to you first this time. Yeah, I mean I think there's a lot of the negative things that I could just recapitulate that I think all BIPOC folks experience in leadership and the questions. And suddenly having someone who actually doesn't know much about finance start explaining a balance sheet to me. And just those kinds of things happen a lot to all of us. But I think instead what I'll say is there's something about I think in my heritage in my background this sense of sort of always being in an in between place. And that has given me a unique, I think, perspective to sort of come in or desire this place where I'm not, where I'm never quite, what do I want to say? I never really, I never really feel like I'm in my own community ever. And that was very painful for me I think early in my career. I don't know if Amelia Ketchapera remembers me making this big comment about like this is not my community here in the middle of TCG and where will I find my community? And then there was a special conference about making work in a new way and I said I still haven't found my community what's wrong here. And I think, but that's really actually served me over time because I've stopped really looking for that and instead really wanted to create spaces where people can just simply be in there and sort of welcome rooms for whoever comes in. And that sort of ability to no longer be looking for that group but really to just provide open spaces for people to talk. And it's something I've been thinking about a lot right now. I don't know, I don't know how to respond to what's happening in the world right now, but I just keep feeling like there's something brewing in me to create the right kind of space. Almost an obligation to not do nothing. So yeah. Successes and challenges is the question. So this is not necessarily a success that I can claim, but it definitely felt like something to celebrate. I will say that when, you know, I finally got that dream job at that predominantly white institution that was going to give me all the resources that I thought I was going to need. I was gratified, nay, like exuberant to be working with two other men of folks in the same theater company. One of whom is right here. Hi, Nabra. The other whom Leah Fajori has since left the theater for is taking a hiatus from theater. But the fact that like my entire career up until that point was like I'm the only one in the room to suddenly have two other people working at the same organization in the same meetings was like, ooh, we can have like locking this woman and be like, this is BS. And I would say the challenges and part of the reason I personally have a lot less faith in large organizations is no matter what we might say, this group of three men of people, what we might say about programming, producing shows that speak to not even our specific culture but our region, completely ignored. So often completely ignored. And it always, every time, bit them in the ass. So that was exasperating. And that is a huge challenge, I think, in the traditional regional theater in this country. So my approach is to go small. It's not go big or go home anymore. It's go small for me and focus on intimacy and true relationship building with the audience. And true relationship building within the community and make excellent arc with the resources that we have and the scale that we have, which is going to give people a closer experience. It's less about whether or not I'm being seen in the big theater space. You know, to some extent, and I don't mean to disparage these art forms because I think they all have value. But like, to some extent, opera, the way that it has been produced for centuries feels less relevant. And I feel like we're in this turning point where the regional theater starts to feel less relevant in a similar way because it's become so watered down that it doesn't even try to do much of anything besides stay alive. So those are some big challenges that I see. And this is my way of approaching the challenge so that I can sleep at night. I really struggle with this question. I have to be honest. And I didn't hear you ever. And what was that? Great. Tell us about that. Well, I mean, it's like negate the question. Let's do it. No, no, no, it's not that I, it's a great question. It's just, there's just a bunch of levels on which I think that challenge is operating for me, one of which is being an Iranian Jew. I sit at, like, I identify as two things that are nationally in terms of their governments like damn near at war with each other. And, and I work with and love many of my Palestinian collaborators and Arab collaborators in general, and particularly in this moment of great violence and atrocity. And it is very hard to hold my identities with pride when I do not support the actions of those governments. So that's a hard thing. And then there's the fact that within white spaces, I've been expected to represent the entire Middle East. Be an expert in the Quran and know Arabic, like the assumptions that have been made. And then I have to explain, no, I'm Jewish. My family speaks Farsi. I don't speak Arabic. Sorry. And feeling like, and then it touches the sort of high achiever thing that's like, should I know all of these things I should know all of these things. If I'm going to make change and these PWI, I better like go memorize the Quran and like get fluent in Arabic. What have I been doing. And it's taken a long time to like, use those as moments to teach very simply without exerting too much emotional labor that like we are not a monolith, and to remember that we are not a monolith. And I still think that there are some huge issues in the regional theater around haste and wanting to feel like you understand a culture or you've represented a region with one show. You did it. And that's just not how it works and we all know that because we're in this room. So that those are some of the challenges. I think that like, yeah, if I'm to say what I felt proud of it has been my ability to in those moments. To challenge the cultural conflations and advocate for specificity and individuality and for populating rehearsal rooms with properly such that we're not counting on one person to be the expert. We're all actually working together from our various different expertises artistic and otherwise. I often joke that like I didn't get my MFA and being Iranian I got my MFA and directing. Because, like, I think that what often gets forgotten in these PWI is like I'm not here as a cultural diplomat I'm here to direct. And like that, that just as much as a white person you can expect me to bring my craft. So anyway, again I don't know if I'm answering your question but I think those have been some of the challenges and those have been some of the successes and I guess now where I am is like I still have hope for the regional theater and maybe it's like a bad boyfriend who's never going to change. I don't know but but I'd like to think that if we could get out of the mindset of checking a box and think of representation less along out of less in boxes and more along spectrums, especially as with every generation the fact that we're becoming more and more mixed race as a country. Maybe we can we can stop setting ourselves up for failure and hoping that each season touches each category just so and think of it more long term as a bigger lifelong conversation. You answered the question perfectly just so that's it. I love that we're all good students and are really worried about answering my questions. And I just want to say I was already going to invite this and but then I knew who was here so I forgot but that I love that everyone is bringing their artistic work into the space along with their leadership work and that conversation is porous. So I just want to yes and that everything y'all are saying about your directing and leadership and together and separately so I just want to just yes and that proposal. One of the things we hear a lot at Monatma is a wish for more Middle Eastern voices to be heard a wish for more Middle Eastern plays Middle Eastern North African place to be done, whether that be in mainstream theaters everywhere right development production, more I'm curious about as leaders of this descent. What has your experience been advocating for this work. I think Angie you sort of pointed to that a little bit. Has it been easier. Has it been harder. Has it been complicated. And as part of this because gosh darn it I'm going to center success if it kills me. Can you just share at least one victory you had in programming advocating for Middle Eastern North African artists or stories and I'll start to show the way. So you know I supported Nataki Garrett so I didn't have to fight a big fight with my leadership about this and however I did have to fight a lot internally for them to understand what all these things meant and that there was a lot of conflation conversation we've had there was a lot of sort of like we did that one. You know, kind of thing. I am very proud to say that I have programmed and worked on the first second and third plays of Middle Eastern descent in osf's history. In 1988 years in 86 years they had never produced one and I just want to remind everyone that osf is an EDI leader if there is one in the country, right. Despite our complications in this new transitional moment. It was a real like wake up call for me and our first one was actually a digital play. This is who I am, which is a Palestinian play about home and place and mourning through occupation and dehumanization. So that was the first one and then one of monsters on scene was the second which I got to direct Nora El Samahi and alabaki worked on it with me. And my gift for next season is a bars in Akhavan's wonderful solo show BFR Maheen about growing up Iranian and American and learning English from American pop songs. Which if you know bars in it is that joyous play which was sort of my parting gift to osf on my way out was programming that next year. So those are my victories. Raymond. Go first again. Yes. I kind of have a victory and failure that are all connected. I wanted to start a Middle Eastern North African theater group at Cleveland Public Theater. I was really inspired by Tarenche and everything here and also visited Silk Road Rising and I and everyone was like yeah be broadly inclusive and I was really excited. And I went you know and I was working in Cleveland and I didn't have enough real connections in the community and sort of my process is we don't say oh we're going to go do this thing. So I just started meeting people and going to things. So I started meeting people and going to like Lebanon Day and visiting church festivals and things like this and just meeting a bunch of people. And I met these Turkish artists who wanted a space to rehearse. I'm like sure come and rehearse and just started creating all these relationships. And then I got some people together and I'm like hey what do you think of this idea of maybe doing something. We'll just take it one step at a time. And like some of the people were like well the Turkish group that was there not representing all Turkish people said yeah we're not Middle Eastern. We're European. And anyways they were not. Everyone was helping me during this process. You did an amazing job directing I Call My Brothers which was part of like reaching out and building these relationships. And so I'm in this room and I keep talking about this broadly inclusive Middle Eastern North African company. And I can notice there's a lot of dialogue happening and I can't really understand what they're saying. And eventually someone I said what's happening. And someone said listen Raymond look at us all. We're not Middle Eastern North African. We're all Arabs or at least we all are from Arabic speaking communities. That's what we want on stage. We're not here for Middle Eastern North Africa. We're here to hear Arabic on stage. And I was like heck yeah that's what we're going to do. And it was both like sad for me. But also like it was just so profound because the community was super clear with me. And it's actually been just like an amazing journey with this group. We're opening a play that we haven't finished writing yet and we're opening it on November I think 17th. So that's super exciting. And it was greatly disrupted and deeply impacted by what's happening. And it's just like a super honor to be in the room every night with this group. That's my success and failure. That's such a fascinating topic too because you know like depending on which family member I talk to they'll either claim Arabness or they won't. There's so many countries right like our identity for each country and each person in each of our region's countries is unique. Like this yeah the number of people that are classified Arab that are not Arab is astounding. But you all know that or speak Arabic yes. So success that is specific to this cultural identity is really hard to pinpoint for me. I would say that my successes are like you were describing everyone subtle and back end. They're like in the one on one conversations. They're in the decision to go with one music director over another. They're in the decision to like it's just those minute hallway meetings that lead to real action that feels right. So I don't think because it is about just trying to be present and trying to be trying to question always questioning the angles and the realities in front of us finding those successes and solutions in small ways. So I can't really like scribe them to you here but I know they happened. I realize I had one more celebration before I let Peron speak which is that I got to hire Peron Yusef Zadeh an Iranian Jew to how direct our it's Christmas Carol ridiculous Christmas show. So that happened and she was hired because she's one of the just so you all know one of the best comedic directors working in the country today and directed the ish out of it if I may say so myself so that that is I need to start claiming that victory. I'm going to take credit for all of your successes now. Please, please, but I mean I still talk about that that was such a coup I was like who knew that an Iranian Jew would get to do the holiday show like it just and that's really the. I mean that that connects to like where I feel like I've been able to have some successes advocating for for artists in our community, not just for work about our community, and to say like you know you want somebody to direct like a big ass musical like you know like the big famous title that's going to sell all the tickets and get everyone to subscribe like here are three directors I'm going to recommend to you and they're all they're all Mina. And know the show isn't about being Mina, but once again, like the crap like we're not just here as cultural ambassadors we, we have craft we know what we're doing. And so, and I felt like at Giva where I was the associate artistic director and the director of engagement I was able to sort of challenge some of those assumptions that were made around who we put on the list and why. I was thinking about particular shows, and I, and the other success I felt I had was I. I'm sorry I laughed because I pissed a lot of people off with this one, but I was able to articulate why it was important. To treat our work the way we would treat the work of any global majority community and thinking about how we put the team together, which I don't think happens very often. And there was a certain person who wanted to direct a certain play, and all of these things will remain nameless because I don't want you to Google it. And I just thought it was wildly inappropriate, and I said so. And I explained why, and it didn't happen. So, I think I was able to prevent a harm there. A series of harms, and also, you know I feel proud that that like I was able to sort of advocate for folks who I know walked through the door there and were able to work there and have worked there repeatedly since so. You know, and I think like as much as I want to see our stories on stage, big, small, regional, Broadway, community, public works, like all of it. I also want to see us getting to expand our artistic horizons to whatever extent we wish. And if that's to do the holiday show, great. And if that's to do Shakespeare, dope. And if that's to do, you know, check off. Lorca, like, I want to see that as much as we, as we see our stories. You sirs are watching throne has an amazing idea for a death of a salesman everybody. I'm your agent now really do really do. Open up for questions and I don't think we have a mic for you so I'm going to need you to use your. Is that mic for? Is it is there a mic is there a mic. Okay. Think about your questions while we get the mic. Or I was just going to repeat the question but you know, to any one of us, all of us, big questions, small questions, what's bubbling up for you all. Adam, show me your theater voice please. It's wonderful support and understanding the type of work within the affinity spaces and that should not at all be taken for granted. And also that like, because they're, they're limited resources inherent to smaller theaters, that that it can like a partnership with a larger theater can be empowering in that way. And yet I'm curious why that feels so rare. So Adam, I'll say may like extraordinary although many other things. Question was about I'm repeating for the zoom world. Partnerships between affinity spaces or community specific organizations and larger or national organizations with bigger resources are thoughts on that are work on that. I will say that most of my work on this actually happened from my seat at Golden Thread. So from the smaller community specific side and I found it to be quite challenging because at Golden Thread and a lot of the theaters that I've had a chance to work at that are culturally specific. There's a great deal of care placed on process, on cultural specificity, on support, on care of the, a lot of times the trauma performance or the trauma creation that a lot of our plays might go through. And because regional theaters specifically, but a lot of our bigger, more commercially minded organizations, nonprofit or not, where that is not centered. And it actually put, I found that there was a lot of, I felt like our name or my name was being used to cover something. So that was my experience. This is a generalization, obviously. I've also had some good partnerships from my seat at OSF. I think it was really important to me to not assume we didn't do a great deal of partnership like this. We supported smaller organizations to do their own work under the umbrella of, oh, our digital space. I would say so it was their work that we were uplifting. But I prefer to listen to what they want to do. So in the pandemic space and the financial limitation space, that never got to a full production, but I am a big believer in a big theater not going, we're interested in this era play. Let me go find an Arab company and tell them that this is good, because we don't know, actually. So there's sort of a, my hope for if and when I do lead another larger theater is that some of those conversations like Raymond said can be much more based in the community and the partners needs and wishes and curatorial voice, rather than a top down capitalist idea of we know better what good is, which I feel happens a lot. Having said this, I agree with you that I still have great belief in ethical partnership between small and larger organizations to be able to bring great resource to the kind of plays that you write, Adam, for example, and other artists in this room. I'm going to throw it to you if you have an answer. I don't know if you do. Yeah, hey, Adam, I thought it was your voice I heard. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, it's interesting. I was just talking to an artistic leader of a company here in the Twin Cities. That has a very specific mission towards a very particular community here that was talking to one of the larger theaters and there was some friction and some resistance to partnering. I mean, I think it's possible. I think, you know, one of the reasons I think it doesn't happen is because as much as it potentially could is because I just think in general, as theaters like what I see is way too much territorial behavior and not enough collaboration. And I think that like for some reason that continues even as we're in this like gigantic financial existential crisis where I just think we should be teaming up a lot more than we are. And not just for the for financial reasons. I think it's critical that the larger theater isn't looking to the smaller like mean a specific theater to solve their EDI problem, or to make them woke or make them relevant. I think it's also really essential for those larger theater sort of as everyone was saying to like defer when it comes to caretaking for the process and the community and the things that need to be in place around the artist for, you know, for them to do their best work and also for them to be well taken care of. I don't think regional theaters are leading the way on that. And so, you know, and I think what often happens with the larger theater being like well we're bringing the smaller is that they think that means they're bringing all the expertise, and they're not. And, and, and I think it's important to be clear about like, here's what we bring to the table. Here's what you bring to the table. And also, I think the big question that I have is like, what is the smaller mean a specific organization getting from it. Because if they have their community and they have their audience and they're doing their work, and like, then what is the, what is the benefit of working with a larger institution and to be, I think, clear about that. On both ends, so that because I think often where these things kind of break down is in misaligned expectations and and unarticulated expectations. So those are some of the thoughts off the top of my head on it, I think it should happen. I think it can. I just think it takes the right leader and the right match. I agree with everything that's already been said. And I think in addition to mutual benefit, it's important for the culturally specific organization or the smaller organization to remember the power that they hold. Because the larger organization is turning to you for a reason that we need to make sure that we don't like diminish the power that we actually have and to actually speak up and advocate for our needs as smaller organizations. That said, I'm going to put my production manager hat on for a second and say that I think part of the challenge between, part of the challenge in partnership between a larger organization and a smaller organization budgetarily is the fact that for larger organizations, so much of the planning that is financially based happens way before the artistic team has been selected. And that's kind of backwards from the way that culturally specific organizations work from process over product kind of works. So I think when a large organization reaches out to a smaller organization, it's important to say, well, maybe not this season, maybe next season, let us be part of the planning process so we can inform you about what we actually need to do the project that we both want to accomplish together. But yeah, I think one of the big things that the COVID era or the lockdown era taught large organizations is that that train is moving so fast, the people within the organization themselves can't keep up. Regardless of how many real life advocates you might have in that PWI. So I think there's just something about the system about this white supremacist system that's just about moving as quickly as possible. And even in a nonprofit structure, making as much money as possible to honestly like stay alive. They're big and they have to stay alive. I'm not going to say much except to say that when you ask the question, I just started scrolling through my memory and I just started getting more and more angry. And that's pretty much all I'll say except that like now I'm at the point of it. I was asked, okay, I'm going to say one little bit more. We were asked to consult on something and it revolved around some community planning and some other things. And I said, you probably have hired some architects or some other people to work on this. We will make the exact hourly wage that they will make. And actually the group that was doing it said, oh, that makes sense. And they were willing to pay that. And I think that's the thing we so quickly undervalue ourselves and we bind to the narrative that we should just be happy to be working with X large organization. And it just, yeah, maybe over drinks we can all vent. I'll share the wisdom of Megan Samberg-Zakin who's one of the founders of Maya Directors with Peron and I, amazing artist. Her first question to any proposal, anything is what's your budget, what's your timeline? And if a big organization is coming to you without those two things, they're trying to take advantage of you. And then they need to be open to changing that timeline and budget but they better have put some money towards what they're asking you to do. And anyway, which is the saddest part, actually, you know what, that's actually true. Having been on the inside, that's real. Any other questions, we're getting to the end of our conversation so I want to make sure. Yes, Mina and Swana, sure. Mina is Middle Eastern North African. OSF is Oregon Shakespeare Festival. Mina is Middle Eastern North African. PWI is Predominantly White Institution. Swana is Southwest Asian and North African. Did I get it all right? And I think it's really important. Manatma is Mina Theatre Makers Alliance which is the larger organization that's holding this weekend. And I really appreciate you asking that question. We can be very insider-y in our conversations and it's good to remember that to bring people along with our journey. We're here over drinks, over coffee, over what food, so please do ask your questions to us at those spaces. I want to ask one final question as a sort of speed round to end this wonderful conversation with great gratitude to all three of you. I look to all three of you in different ways for what I ask myself what would Ray and Bob Gan do in the situation, often, for example. So I just want to say I'm really thankful. I do. I'm really thankful for all three of you. I see your work. I appreciate your work. And I am in deep thankfulness and gratitude for your time here. But on that note, can you please tell this group of people as a leader trying to fight the good fight as a Mina human, what would you wish these folks knew that you need? How can they help you? Speed round. Don't think about it too deep. I'll say if you see me making a mistake, assume I don't know and tell me. Rather than assuming that I'm doing it purposefully to hurt you. Because I'm not. It's similar. I'd say hold me accountable. Like I speak in platitudes sometimes and yes, I speak in draft, which is something that we talked about earlier, but also like I'm going to get it wrong. And if I need to apologize for something, tell me so that I can. Yeah, same. And when you do that, remember I'm a human being and I have feelings and, you know, talk to me like I'm a human being. I'm going to ditto all of that. And I'm also going to say if you see something, yes, say something. And if you see that, say, an institution I'm at has done a thing that you don't like. Perhaps also hold space in your mind for the possibility that I fought a fight and lost. Not that I didn't fight the fight at all. That's all. Thank you all. Thank you all. We take a 15 minute break. Yes. We're going to take a 15 minute break and then we're going to have this conversation about how we're getting in there with universities and educational institutions and changing that conversation because there's some amazing work happening in those spaces. Appreciate you all. Thank you. Bye. Go get some sun.