 Okay, it's time to leave off the press, some headlines that our national dailies or some of our national dailies have this morning. And we're glad to be joined by Professor Chris Mustafa Mwokogia, Jr., convener, country fest movement. Good morning and welcome to the program, Prof. Good morning, the pleasure is mine. You have been going around the country. You have been speaking to people and trying to make our country better. Thank you for that. We're beginning with a Guardian newspaper this morning and the leading headlines on the Guardian newspaper is Nigeria spends about 50% of oil earnings on production costs. It just caught me that we're spending almost everything that we are getting from oil production on the cost of production. It's a worrisome information. Sometimes when I look at this information, when I hear the NMPC limited and their subsidiaries talk, I wonder whether they think that they're talking to people who are not informed or people who cannot ask questions. You can just simply go to the internet to find out what are we saying that we do not have partners who are involved in the drilling of crude oil. Almost always the fact is clear before us that we do not basically refine. We have a refining capacity is very, very minimal. And so most often what we export is crude oil and then that's why we have the subsidy regime that we're talking about and asking the government to complain before the Nigerian people and actually tell us how much million liters of fuel will consume daily. So when the NMPC limited tells us that it spent about 50% of oil earnings on production, you ask production of what? Is it the production of the same crude that they have facilities and they collaborate with other multinationals to drill? Who do they pay those monies to and for what reason? And I think that the term has come for us as a nation to engage in the holistic forensic analysis of what obtains in the oil sector, particularly now that we have an economic downturn that is strangulating and making Nigerians worry so much. I dispute the figures and the internet is there to tell us exactly how fallacious it is. OK, well let's say that human resources gets up to 38%, logistics 19%, handling costs 13%, direct lifting 9%, security cost is there, regulatory and other auxiliary costs are there and all that. That's why they got that that's what gobs that amount of money. But do you think that the new directive that the central bank should be in charge of the monies coming from oil exportation and all that is a solution to these problems that we are facing? It will do a lot. I tell you fundamentally if the central bank is NMPC limited and it subsidiaries are made to pay every earnings and claims to the central bank they will have to raise a voucher or a payment document for the charges or the cost of production. So I think that fundamentally it will help. Above all and that perhaps is why most of the headlines of the papers today are exciting for me. Above all is the need for a holistic overall of how we do business in this country, how government does business and how we manage our resources as a people. You act yourself human resource for production of crude oil because we barely like I said we barely refine and human resource stands at about 38%. You act yourself. Are you paying for your partner companies that are involved in the drilling of food? Are you paying mobile? Are you paying Shell? Are you paying Mzo? Are you paying? Who are you paying all that the NMPC staffs who largely are redundant? I think that the time has gone for us to ask very strong questions. You cannot be complaining about economic downturn and then you have your resources being wasted in the name of production cost of what you truly truly know how these things come about. Okay perhaps this other story which is in the punch we're not leaving Guardian yet but a story on the point newspaper says subsidy removal petrol import crashes by 990 million litres monthly and you were just putting the facts on the figures on the Guardian when they were talking about all these things. Do you believe in these figures being quoted by the punch 990 million litres monthly as a crash? You know let me let me make you laugh my brother and yes like I said in my opening remark we are not in a country of of need to which we are not a country of people who do not think and that is why the media is doing a great job of putting these things before us. Let me tell you clearly which is fundamentally important here we have almost as much as seven different figures of how much liters of fuel of fuel consumed in Nigeria the NMPC will tell you it's 46 million liters the DPR will tell you it's 58 million liters you have as many as eight different figures I I'll try to get it at the cost of this interview and you ask yourself you're subsidizing what you do not exactly know the amount of liters you consume per day and by extension monthly you know the figures are so widely apart that some will tell you oh Nigeria consumes about 48 million liters some will tell you it has come down by 19 million liters some will tell you it's the figure is 58 million liters and some will tell you it's 42 million liters if you check what you spend on subsidy per liter and you have a gap of as much as 15 18 million liters then you know how much criminality how much fraud and how much wickedness obtains at that level I think at the time like I said the time has gone for a holistic forensic of what truly obtains in our oil sector we cannot keep looking the other way whereas big businesses milk this country and leave the Nigerian people poor, bed chested and hungry. Okay still on oil and in the Guardian newspaper Nigeria okay's 17.64 billion dollar oil development plan as ricks jumped to 30. What's your take? I think also that when you live in a country where the challenge over the years and this has been since 1999 has been a call for the diversification you want to diversify your cost of revenue and you want to major on other sources of income when I think that there's something about the NMPC limited and the subsidiaries that are clearly being orchestrated to either divert attention from remember that a few weeks ago Serap came up with a litigation asking the NMPC to open his books a few months ago the whistleblower Ubo raised up issues about several millions of buyers of crude oil allegedly stolen and sold in China a few months ago it was Femi Falana who talked about 52 million buyers of crude oil allegedly stolen and sold in Pennsylvania in the United States of America so there is a lot of on that table dealings that so maybe they're trying to gaslight us with issues about readiness to produce more but we must know first what we actually produce we must also know what we actually and we also must know how much fear we consume daily in this country it's not rocket science is everywhere that you can get the tankers and facilities that you can their chips you can put on them and you can get to the filling stations across the country you have they have an association and then you know exactly you can make a very reasonable average of what happens in that sector but the fact is that those who pretend our country and our economy have refused to come back home straight come open before the Nigerian people's everything about figures of monies that you want to spend at the level of the NMPC and its subsidiaries comes to me with a huge bag of caution because they have been consistently less than transparent to the Nigerian people and the Nigerian state okay so now that the next thing is I don't know because maybe because I don't understand it much it's talking about the interest rate hike yesterday we were talking about the fact that the monetary policy committee raised the interest rate to about 22.75 or so percent and this was supposed to curb inflation now the story is saying interest rate hike takes toll on stock market as investors lose 1.4 trillion Naira I mean I don't understand is it helping us or it's killing us I am not an economic but I have listened to quite a few of your opinion of experts on it you know tied to inflation it's perhaps too much money in circulation tied to inflation is too much money in the market and little or nothing to buy and a few of them that I listen to who has said that the tendency of the hike in interest rate helping the economy is high because it might reduce the sum of monies that are perhaps not necessary in the public space some of them have also said that it means that those only those who are anxious and interested who are ready within unable to invest will go burrowing will go in search of funds so I think that what it will do according to Bismarck Rihwana will be to recalibrate the economy and yes that it will get bad or worse for a bit and then pick up in about five six months that it is a necessary step it is it is a water cost I really think that fundamentally as a layman in economics what I know is that the time has come for government to effectively look at the way of agriculture you have foods and grains that you can grow in three four months Nigeria you can grow crops three times a year so rather than begin to mouth platitudes it will get better it will get better let us get to work and ensure that farmers are protected which is very important you know when you talk about food security talk about security of farmers you talk about national security so these are fundamental things that I think that the state master should begin to think of yeah I agree with you farming is very important they even have varieties of rice that will take two months to mature from the time you broadcast it to the harvesting time and then vegetable steaks like six weeks or two three weeks sorry and so many other things that you can plant and harvest more than three times in a year even okay but right now the say the hardship in the country is tied to bad policies of previous governments and all that and there's this headline we're seeing which says propanel on Buhari's government 30 trillion Naira loans sits next week to someone CBN officials they have said that a lot of things went on in the administration or during the administration of president Muhammad Buhari and now they're trying to probe and Nigerians are just trying to see whether they should just forget about this or wait and see this is another probe do you think it will see the light of day even if it is done and recommendations are made let me say the refitedly I have always said that beyond this language I'm not comfortable with a language probe because the immediate past administration as well as the present administration of the same party of the same stock you know the chairman of the party allegedly at some point was caught on camera in Canada state they're oversetting you know now we have a client cliche Gandola and then nothing happened he was elevated to become the chairman of party so I think that Nigerians have the subjection reason to be skeptical but above that what is important for me is you know a few years ago if you remember I wrote an opinion as to how to revive economies you know and that proposal not less than four months after it went into practice in Saudi Arabia where the crown prince called all his brothers nephews cousins and all that I said oh we need to rejig our economy we need to bring the kingdom back to the its leadership as the in the Arab economy and all of us have sinned so I want everybody to open their banks bring out all the you have stolen one or the other and let us put this into the economy and reviewed our economy so they already got so many of the crown prince is so there is this in France you know the United Kingdom brought back the money home and today you see Saudi Arabia trapped in several businesses and innovation the other countries that have followed suit I I think that we will be deceiving ourselves will be hiding behind one finger to say we will say that we have to probe why is government why is government was chief in Lassani chief in corruption chief in TV and we know that the governments before them were chief in Lassani chief in TV and chief in corruption we know that and we know that those who pretend the present administration their hands are stained in the cookie cookie jar where we know everybody knows everybody you know so what this administration must do understanding the urgency of now and what is to invite all these people you know them you have the figures they all would be FCC and I CPC call them to a meeting and tell them look at the state of our economy everybody that's why you have even in America you have the plea bargaining system everybody put before them their files and say Nigeria needs these monies back and then you almost try with the return of the resources you know it's as bad as we had that a certain young man who is not up to 32 years old be it to the immediate past president and some other two two persons have between the over eighty eight billion dollars is that bad and I just go that poor in Nigeria is going two point five million dollars one point five billion dollars three billion dollars three billion dollars when individuals have enough money to rejig and resuscitate our economy so what you do is call all of them you have the papers let us stop this dance in the market square you know and then it's a moment of patriotism if you don't bring back 85% or 80% of these monies you stole then we'll follow the litigation full and square you know you will find out that in some of them are negotiating already as we hear you find out that in two weeks the dollar will come up to about two hundred nine twenty one you'll find out that our monies will return and our economy will come to life you know these are fundamental issues it's not difficult you know it's about the political will so when I hear people say oh they want to prove Mohammed Bahri's administration what is the proof about when you know the figures are the square let me tell you that I have never had not been an economist I've asked economists and experts in forensic what does ways and means mean to have a regulated or appropriated about 30 trillion Naira to what does he mean under what subhead ways and means that's how criminal that was how wicked that was how unfair that was how inhuman they were you know so when you have such figures and all that all you need do is invite every one of the people involved to relieve this language probe and ask for our monies to be returned and you'll see monies will come back those who were governors will bring back the money is this tool those were ministers will bring back the money is this tool those were directly involved at the banking level bring back the money is this tool and we'll have a massive reset of our economy I think so I buy that idea just bring it back invest in Nigeria no matter what it is and then they'll change well to to make sure that the economic downturn doesn't get too biting on the people the federal government says it will crash drug prices and it is getting 1 billion dollars from Afriaks in bank that's the headline on punch newspaper federal government to to crash drug prices gets 1 billion dollars from Afriaks in bank what do you think about that you think you just the news the next news item was much more like prediction of the continuation of my line of thought I I still think the rather than go abroad if you know that we have all these monies in homes we have them in rock hash we have governmental operatives let me tell you a forensic that was done a few weeks ago about this rise in the dollar the the battle against the Naira by the dollar let me the forensic proved or showed that this price surge comes from towards the end of the month when the federal government releases fuck to the states their location to the states and so what happens so many of them in the either in the name of security votes or ongoing projects buy off the dollar and so the Naira is forced to go in search of the dollar and and because our economy is highly dollarized we have a problem we have now if you go a borrowing I don't have any logic I don't have any excuse for I don't I can't even defend it at the borrowing of it time now when we know that there's so much money in this country and we know the operators who have these billions of dollars at home and we're not saying use the language probe you know certain times when you have a serious national situation I told you it happened in Saudi Arabia it's happened in Zambia it has happened in Rwanda it's happening across the world it's happened in Argentina people are calling back suspected public officers who milked their country to come we're not going to kill you yes it was your moment of madness it was your moment of mistake it was your moment of primitive acquisition and greed but our country is beyond this you know what we need is to get back our country what we need is to solve the questions of poverty what we need is infrastructural development please give us back these monies you will find out that it is for fear of persecution of fear of serious punishment that so many of them are not bringing these monies now when you have an understanding give us at least eighty five percent of these monies litigation will not give you back 20% you have heard about instances of some people who are allegedly stood 100 billion naira been given optional fine of 2 million naira so who's the loser you know what we need is our monies I don't I will not discuss any I will not give credence to any kind of borrowing even if you're telling me that that borrowing will give us electricity tomorrow I will not I've heard that all the lifespan of this democracy what borrowing for a power project what borrowing for construction what borrowing for to reject the economy and where are we if you understand the anatomy if you understand exactly where we are as a nation you will know that all these borrowings are perhaps like the end of business said 38% will go into human resources you know it will go into personnel management and that's another cliche for corruption so I think that what we must do is go get back our money from those who are within an outside and tell them oh it's you return the money we drop litigation you know plebe again in but we want this much it is not about re-leaching up about a loot no we want this much and we must get it if we don't get it we'll now pull the full weight that's when we bring the ICPC and the AFCC to get on you you find out that every former president of Nigeria including the great my papa or passenger do not turn everyone has something to return and I think that we need all these monies present president who we know the story and about what happened with Lagos has so much to return you know when they return all these monies we don't need to go borrowing that's just a simple thing and that should be the argument just like a restructuring is becoming the argument everywhere we must tell ourselves the truth I was thinking don't even return it to us just come and invest in our country because you know if you have a big company outside and you bring that company back it will mean that it will employ a lot of people and the money will stay in circulation here but the company will belong to their children and their children's children we don't need you don't give them credit for stealing no give it back to the country and we'll set up a team that will follow up the resources and follow it all because they do they do we look it you know we need to create a sense of ownership of in this country which is to weave that our collective world is a collective patrimony it does not belong to a few political office or pretels or political or pretels no our money's our money you know you don't steal it come back and then invest in your so-and-so and so on anyway you know we want a country that build the builds on the people the saying is with the people the saying is go to court and then when you go to court like you said from from a hundred billion you'll find two million and that's ridiculous it's we lose as a country all the time they yeah the biggest headline on the punch newsly far the boldest headline is NCC rules out extension telco's bar 12 million lines MTN et al others vow to enforce NCC order by midnight Wednesday today it's already Thursday which means a lot of Nigerians will be disconnected today I was worried about the fact that okay directives can be given but the people who gave the directive the day taking to consideration the infrastructure that was going to be able to take all these people that might need to to link their lines today and I am are we talking about we did not even mention anything about security in all those things that they mentioned as being important why we should link our numbers to NIN when these things first came up the minister then said that it will help us in security and all that but now nobody mentioned that so I'm worried about the infrastructure I'm worried about the fact that some people even in the villages that may not even have heard that this directive was given will be bad from will be disconnected and so many other things I don't know how you think about that the deadline has already passed today is Thursday 29th let me let me make you laugh I'm going to see from a different perspective and this is very strong you're talking about the people who are in the villages and who perhaps did not know about this protocol because there wasn't sufficient information I I will sue my mobile if I find out that my number was back because for about three weeks now I've been getting messages that they are likely to bar my number one of my numbers and every time I go back to the system I find out that the system will tell me that your number has been connected your sin number your NIN number has been connected because I've done all of that but consistently up until yesterday my line was saying that you will be disconnected and when I use their code my number has been since connected because I did all of that and there's several I called some of my friends and they told me the same problem they were having the same problem and and then it was asking me to leave my business and the things I was doing to go to in my mobile facility to confirm my NIN status I left it's just like a business man telling the client who wants to buy his boots to come to my house to buy my boots you haven't brought it to me and you tell me if I don't come to buy it I am the customer I am king if I have done the needful don't continue to threaten me and so I've been waiting for them to bar my line so that I'll get the lawyers and this is you know I think that the time has come for a new regime of business in this country we must have the embossed man on board as a major facility in government who will protect the customer who will protect entity has to rise to you don't threaten Nigerians there's so many people who have done the needful who every day receive one text message or another from the same people so they should go and make sure that their facilities are working well that's point number one and then point point number two telling us what you will back to a million lines how much information was circulated in my hometown of Ibiza how much information went to Karen Hamuta how much information went to Apakiliki how much went to Edda in Osun state how did you carry the people along so many people did not know about this in Nigeria all about their leads and the information that we have on tv and the newspapers how did they engage the town criers the day you hear the empty hotel everywhere you go they all have all their cliches but how much have you informed the people about the needful I think that we must understand that citizenry and citizenship is at a core leadership and nationhood we must put a primacy on the Nigerian people learn to love your people that's how leaders gain trust do not warn and threaten us love us and care for us you know so I hope and I pray that SCC along with the telephone companies who will come back to the Nigerian people probably inform them the lines that perhaps they have banned according to them since last night they have to inform the people and effectively follow them because let me tell you they tell you that part of the reason they are doing this is because they want to cut crimes oh my god so many lines allegedly have been connected the villains and the pregans still use numbers so I think that they must first of all watch the conspiracy between the network providers the banks and the chain of criminality it's not just about the Nigerian who knows how many of them know about online or criminality with their phones so many of them are using you know most people do not even know that still in Nigeria there are more people without android phones than those who have android phones so let us wake up to the reality and learn to tell ourselves the truth it was Utmandam Fudio who said in 1806 precisely that conscience is an open wound only truth can heal it the time has come for us to learn to begin to tell ourselves the truth live by the truth and critination that is responsible and responsive to each people okay we'll move to daily independent newspaper now I'm not taking the the boldest headline for now there's a small headline top left corner which says or Oron Sayez report execution won't lead to job losses now over the week when we're talking about this report that is going to be implemented first of all we're just asking you know how how is it that an administration that widened its cabinet and said that if the cabinet is not widened it is the jobs will not may not be done well you know it will lead to you know some things being left undone so he had to widen the cabinet to about 40 ministers and all that and he's saying that he wants to cram everything into fewer ministries and agencies and power status and all that i'm worried on that's on that side and and then now they're talking about the fact that no jobs will be lost which means the the the the number of people that will be paid and everything that needs to be done in those ministries when they merge them they wage bill and the money that will go there will still be the same and i'm wondering how this is going to even help to cut the cost of governance uh i i don't understand why this is but they're saying no job will be lost so everything will be intact just that they will be called one name because all the facilities will still be used under one umbrella no there is a difference between populism and proactive governmental uh pragmatic and my choice of word populism yes the naira is on a freefall yes the economy and his son and nose dive yes they need for urgent forensic approach to leadership and so what comes as a popular uh reaction dust of the ross higher report and throw it at the people and without a proper forensic appraisal of how it will work and then when you're beginning to see that there's a lot of pitfall you begin the usual government stories i don't want to use the word lies now if you're implementing the ross higher report you will have job loss that's the truth if you're implementing the report and you're cleaning down ministries people will have to go that is the truth you know like i said oh that man can learn to live by the truth and i put it put mandam food you're conscious that only truth can heal it how can you turn down the cost uh how can you implement your ross higher report without having job loss where the world how do you know he's talking about turning down the cost of governance and reducing the number of ministries so why you know falsehood is not a government or police we must learn to come true to the people but now you ask yourself like my apotheonist silk from ifalana raised the issues he says most of these reports are gone the times who have gone beyond these reports and that it must be subjected to a new forensic and that is the truth we live in a new world where you have e-governance you have several things that you can do to cut down the cost of government and governance you know but when we continue to lie to ourselves we find out that it makes it more difficult for people to believe us i wonder what you see and then else you'll be telling them if you are you uh implementing the ross higher report and then if you have staff of voice of nigeria i imagine voice of nigeria with nigerian broadcasting commission and you imagine them with ferrariu ferrariu corporation that people will not go then why you imagine them why you uh implementing the report the people will not go but you see i i want to say that fundamentally they have things to do to be done sit down with the labor organization sit down with tuc and i'll see sit down with the the minister of uh justice and attorney general sit down with the government agencies and then look at those who are near retirement pay them their gratuities and pension and pay them a severe a severe allowance because people will go if you want to cut down the cost of governance but you know very importantly and interestingly in your opening uh to that question you raised this is the same government that started we have the largest cabinet in our democracy you know fundamentally you know why start with the ministers cut down the number of ministries you have we blame buhari buhari had more minister less ministers down to the buhars obasanjo had less ministers yadwa had less ministers tunata had less ministers that's why i said less of the populism we should learn to abide by the truth tell ourselves the truth you know if you want to implement the policies start with your government start with or as i have reported the way uh is a report that must be subjected to an overhaul a forensic how does it apply with contemporary times how does it apply with governance in 2024 that would work uh the lenient sink falana raised as an issue and even use the word this is outdated i don't think it is outdated i think that there must be an overhaul and a forensic just tell us that you will implement it uh as as as the as it was released don't tell us that there's so much to be done about it and then you're telling us when or as i know on certain times said that we had a blue-head civil service we had a government that was too large and too cumbersome and so so many people will have to go and then you're turning around to tell so you're not interested in even implementing it i think that there's a lot that must be done by this government uh a more bio nanogram uh adjuvant glale and several people who speak on behalf of this government must understand that truth is a become of trust if you want people to trust your government tell them the truth stop just lighten the people stop telling nsc until you see that you will implement or as i have reported our job loss that's the greatest force would known to humankind and that wasn't the motive of that report the motive of the report was to downsize governance and that's for me where i think that this government almost always and even the media pass government thinks that falsehood and lies is an organic instrument of state policy it is not all it does is make people doubt you more and more and make people lose faith in governance true well uh unfortunately this is where we'll have to drop it even though there's still many more headlines we could have treated but we'd like to thank you for your time this can i stand in something because it's very important uh the headline about you i don't know whether you deliberately left it but it's important uh government talking about the restructuring uh that they will they will i think it's important and that that will make me a fan of this government if it truly works up to the realities and the need for the restructuring of the Nigerian economy and the Nigerian state you know you you cannot have a government that is unwieldy and is involved in everything in this country government is involved in supplies of newspapers to the federal government college in my hometown in Ibiza government is involved in the pouches of computer chips for the federal government college in buko government is involved in supply of fertilizers to farmers in karuna muda and no government that does all of this can succeed so i think that the time is and very properly now for us to challenge government to an overall restructuring of not only the governmental protocols a holistic appraisal of a legal protocol the concurrent list the residual list and exclusive legislative lease must be overhauled by both government through the national assembly they must overhaul it and ensure that the states and the local government take up sizable duties in government and the federal government should just concern themselves with defense money monetary policy custom and exercise immigration and a few of the things that are necessary to make plan your work only then can you have a country that is functional all right up until now we have an absolutely dysfunctional nation and we must make this country work again yeah we must make this country work when in that time comes i hope they will come back to us the citizens and help and so that we can help to define what restructuring is it cannot be restructuring according to somebody and the whole nation is thinking about restructuring in another light we do hope that they will not take us for granted when that time comes and will get us all involved let's see what type of restructuring we want thank you so much prof for being a part of our program this morning the pleasure of mine god bless ideas amen to that okay we've been talking with professor kris mustafan will call be a junior convener country first movement on of the press this morning we'll take a very short break and return with our first hard topic stay with us