 Hello and welcome to my career in data, a podcast where we discuss with industry leaders and experts how they have built their careers. I'm your host Shannon Kemp, and today we're talking to Danette McGilvray from Granite Falls Consulting. Visit dataversity.net and expand your knowledge with thousands of articles and blogs written by industry experts plus free live and on-demand webinars covering the complete data management spectrum. While you're there, subscribe to the weekly newsletter so you'll never miss a beat. Hello and welcome. My name is Shannon Kemp, and I'm the Chief Digital Officer at DataVersity and this is my career in data. A DataVersity Talks podcast dedicated to learning from those who have careers in data management to understand how they got there and to be talking with people who help make those careers a little bit easier. To keep up to date in the latest in data management education, go to dataversity.net forward slash subscribe. Today we are joined by Danette McGilvray, the President and Principal Consultant at Granite Falls Consulting. And normally this is where a podcast host would read a short bio of a guest. But in this podcast, your bio is what we're here to talk about. Danette, hello and welcome. Hi, Shannon. Thanks for having me. Thanks for being here. I'm so grateful that you said yes to doing this. I've known you for a while and as an expert in data governance and data quality. And especially so thank you for being here. Yeah, I always like working with DataVersity. It's great. Thank you. So tell me, so you're the President and Principal Consultant at Granite Falls Consulting. So tell me about Granite Falls Consulting. OK, so just a quick thing for people to think about. Think of it this way. What products and services does your organization provide? Who are your customers? I guarantee you that data and information are part of everything that you do. Every decision you make, every report, every operational process, every screen that comes up. So if you are concerned or have had problems, experienced problems with the quality of that data, can you trust it? Are your processes working the way that they need to? Are your reports matching? Are your customers having complaints about their invoices? For instance, if you're having any of those kinds of problems, I'm your gal. I would be the one to call because my specialization, as you mentioned, really is on data quality and governance, which goes hand in hand with the quality. So what Granite Falls does is looks at whatever your organization is. It all applies. I don't care if your government, education, health care, for profit in any kind of vertical. We all care about data. And so if you have those concerns, what I'm going to do is look at what you need to accomplish. What is your business strategy? And I am that bridge between strategy and actually being able to do implementation and practical steps for taking care of the data quality and governance problems you have. And such a hot topic right now, right? With all the cool tools that are coming out of AI and machine learning and everything else, quality is at the core of all that, right? It is a core of that. And yet some people still don't recognize that. And I think some people don't recognize that just because you have a tool, you have a machine, oh, I'm doing AI, oh, well, it must be right. That's not the case. And it really is important. And it is growing in importance. And more people do understand that, I think, because of things like the AI and machine learning. But there's still a lot to do. Oh, gosh, so much to do. But we'll come back to that, though, tonight. So tell me, what is your typical work week look like? What are you doing with your customer sudden? So a typical work week. Every week is a little bit different. But I'll talk to you about just some of the things that might show up in a week or many of these show up in one week. So, yeah, definitely working with clients and working with people. Very often people say they recognize that they have these problems with data quality and they say, we need some kind of formalized initiative to be able to address these problems. We need to increase the literacy. That's a that's a big phrase that people are using now. We need to increase the knowledge and experience internally so I can work with people to put those into place. Working with clients remotely very often and now that things are opening up, getting back on site. So it's both ways, both virtual and in-person. Very often people have specific kind of projects. Oh, we've got this data lake. We know it's turned into a data swamp and we need to take care of it. So maybe there is just a particular area that they need to focus on. I can help them with that, too. So I also spend time because I am a consultant. I also spend time writing articles, developing workshops. I am heavily involved with a group called Data Leaders, where we developed a one page pager called the Leaders Data Manifesto, anything that any leader should know about data the very basics. And I've helped oversee that being translated into 21 languages so far. So I really have a passion for data being it's a global issue. And it does not matter your country, your culture, your language, the type of organization you work for. All of this is really important to your success. Well, congratulations on that distribution. That's amazing. Yeah, thank you. Well, so to net tell me, was this the dream, though? And when, say, you were six years old, was this the dream that I'm going to grow up and be president of a data consulting company? Well, of course, the short answer is no, because I had no idea that there was a career like this. I mean, I it's kind of laughable to think about how little I knew about what careers were open to me. So I graduated from the university with a bachelor's degree in business information systems and a minor in business administration. At that time, I was thinking, I thought the only thing I could do is to be a programmer or at the time it was like programmer analyst. OK, and so my first career job was actually being a programmer analyst. And I found out really quickly that what I I could do the job, I was good at that. But what I really was good at and what I really liked was able was that late liaison role between the business and between the clients. And I mean, external clients, so internal business, external clients. So being that liaison between them and the technology folks. And that that was just a niche that I fell into and I loved it. And then I moved into another job and that niche worked perfectly because it was all about data. And I didn't even know that there, you know, you could be in business information systems, but I didn't really understand all the opportunities and all the needs there were around data and how people in data need to be able to be that liaison and be able to speak both business and speak technology and be a bridge. So so I fell into that. Yeah, so so that's interesting, though, that that you kind of chose a degree that you thought you had to have. And then but found a passion within that. So so so what was that first job then out of college? So so. I ended up getting recruited out to a high tech company in California. So I moved to California. I was one of these people that at the time they called a re-entry student. I'd gone to the university right after high school, but I only went a year. I got married. I had two kids eventually got divorced and said, you know, I've got a family to take care of. I need to finish my degree. So I worked full time and was a single mom and got my degree eventually. It's the hard way. I don't recommend doing it that way. But but but it would do it. Yeah. Yeah. So just a few months before I graduated our college of business at the university, they had they sponsored a technology conference. So I took time off from work and I attended the conference. As part of the conference, one of this I met one of the speakers who was a vice president at one of the high tech companies in Silicon Valley. So in California. And so I met him and he said, oh, have you ever thought about coming to California to work? And I had not. That wasn't even a part of my thought process. But the idea really intrigued me. So I gave him my resume. They flew me out a couple of weeks later, offered me a job. And so it really changed everything about what was happening in my life. So I investigated, made sure that it was going to be a good move for my kids, too. Couldn't be just a good move for me. And we moved out to California. So it was at that company that I had that job as a pro like as a program or analyst, and I was also doing some training. Well, I was only at that company for like nine months and they got bought out by another high tech company. You know, it's a pretty scary proposition. I hadn't gone through this before. I didn't know that that kind of thing happened. And, you know, I kind of uprooted my life. Now what am I going to do? And I ended up getting a job at a different, larger, well known high tech company. And they had put and I'm dating myself a little bit. But at the time, the big hot technology was EDI or electronic data interchange. So they had really built out all the technology in the program and such that needed to be part of that. But none of their programmers wanted to talk to the clients to do the implementation. So they were looking to hire someone who would come in to help do the implementations with their top 10 resellers. And that was the job that I got. And that was really where I fell into what I had mentioned earlier. I was really good at the in between. And it was really perfect for me that in between with with the technology in the business and then I moved from there after a few years into another area in that company. And it was really strictly more of a data management job. But I had already been doing it, but I had not put the words data or data management to it. Yeah, as it as it goes for most of us, right? Like, you know, right. Right. I mean, it's not the typical kind of job. Right. So then where'd you go from there? So from there, eventually the company. Well, OK, a little bit of background. So the job that I had moved into, it was all about managing customer data that supported the sales and marketing functioning functions of this global high tech organization. And all of them, my manager was in charge of a council that was made up of all of the managers of customer data across the company. And they all were having problems with the quality of their customer data. So they decided to put their heads together, do something with it. And then so they brought in a consultant that consultant was Larry English. So anybody who's in data quality should know about Larry. He's often called the father of information quality. So they asked me to work with him and they said, we just want to keep the knowledge in the company. So when he leaves, you know, all the knowledge doesn't go. Yeah. And so that was how it started. And and from that moment that I started working with Larry, I was told that I would only be working with him for a week full time. And all of this other work would taper off after that. Well, I have never stopped working in data quality. And that was, you know, like close to 30 years ago now. So so yeah, so I worked with him. I learned his methodology. I started running projects. I took his ideas and I created I created some of my own innovations. That company then broke into two different companies. I had opportunities on both sides, but eventually took my program. So I was enterprise customer data program manager. Data quality program manager at that company. I took mine over to to the part of the company that moved off. And then I became the enterprise for not just for customer data. I was the enterprise data quality program manager, like for all data across the company. And so then I could really continue to work my innovations and work with other people and and share it and such. And so then from there, I'm trying to fast forward through this. But you can see, you know, it's good. It's different. Yeah. Different different roles within and or with when big both big global organizations. Yeah. And new opportunities. And I was always, you know, really keeping interested and and being able to do the new things, which was which was always really fun. And then I had a family tragedy. My son was killed in a motorcycle accident. And then I kept working for a year and it was tough to do that. And so I finally decided I just needed to do what I call grief. Take care of my grief in a constructive way. So I quit. And so my my dear husband was very good and supportive of that. And so I completely stepped away from everything. I did not read email for six months. I mean, I really stepped away to care of what I needed. I felt like I needed to take care of there. And then it was time to go back. That wasn't a retirement program. I mean, I still needed to go back to work. But the good news was I could smile again. I could set goals again. I could have energy again. So I myself permission and I said, what do I want to do? I didn't and I just gave myself permission to take some more months to decide what I wanted to do. When would I ever have the opportunity that I only had an obligation to me and my husband at the time? My other had to the house. My daughter was out of the house. And so what do I really want to do? Do I want to go back in this corporate setting, which I've absolutely loved and been challenged by all of these years? But I decided I was going to try and go and be a consultant and build my own brand and build my own company. And I even looked at and explored different different business opportunities that had absolutely nothing to do with data, high tech, anything that I was doing. I just really explored a lot of things. But I came back to the data and the reason I came back to the data is I realized how important it was. There still was not enough people talking about it, doing the things that they need to do about it. And it's really, really, really important. And so I came back to that. So I decided to try to go out on my own. And one big thing that helped me do that is that. Whereas before people had said, hey, why don't you be a consultant? I actually didn't want to. I mean, like I said, I was being challenged. I was happy. I was doing good things within within these companies. But now I was ready for a new challenge. And here's the important thing. I wasn't afraid to fail before I would have been afraid to fail. But this time it was I need something different. I'm up for the challenge. And I wasn't scared of failing because I figured I had just gone through the worst thing in my life that I could imagine that I would go through. So if I start this company, if I don't like it or if I don't do well at it, then I can go back and I can go find something else to do. But I wouldn't consider it a failure. I would just consider it that I had learned something about myself. I tried something great. Let's let's move ahead. That was that was a big differentiator for me to be able to to do what I did. And so in April of this year, that was 18 years ago. Oh, my God, Grant Grant at Falls. So, wow, you know, I'm still here and and I love it. And I love what I do and I love the people I work with and the people that I can help. Yeah. And so so there you go. The journey up from there to here. And that, oh, my gosh, I, you know, I don't know that I knew that. And I am so sorry for your loss. And and but what an amazing story to turn tragedy and and a look. So well, I keep saying a I mean everything. So how many points am I going to make that are at the end of the first point? I have that that you that you. And I'm so impressed that you listen to what you need in. And took time for yourself to grieve because, you know, so many, you know, I know I've done it myself, you know, just retry and power through and it does more harm than good. You know, it's so healthy what you did. And I commend you for that. And then and then try and then starting a whole new business, a whole new career. That is amazing. That is amazing. Congratulations. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. And it was a whole career. However, it was continuing on my knowledge. So I I I had done a lot of work for many years within data, within data quality. I mean, I mentioned I worked with Larry English. I had the opportunity to learn from Tom Redman, you know, and he continues to be a friend and close colleague. And I continue to learn from him, Rich Wang out of MIT. So I mean, I really got to learn from those people. And I had started speaking at conferences while I was still working in those companies. So I had a network of people that I knew. Not just within the company, but externally, which was which was really helpful. And so I felt very confident about my subject matter expertise. Like, yes, I can go help people do this data stuff that I do. Yeah. And I'd started doing data governance before anybody called it data governance. You know, it was it was just part of what we needed to do to have high quality data. So now we have a word for the governance side of things. So I was pretty confident in that. The part I wasn't sure about was the business of being in business. Like, how do you build a business? How do you start a business? What is your legal entity? You know, it's all of that business of being in business, which was the new part for me. How did you learn? Pardon? Yeah, how did you learn? Yeah, I get a lot of people calling me who are thinking of maybe going out into consulting, going on their own. And I will say in the U.S. the very best use of taxpayer money that I've ever seen is a small business administration. So at the time I was living in the San Francisco Bay Area, they had offices in San Francisco, in Oakland and in San Jose. So I visited each one of them. They all had different sets of workshops and courses that you could take. I signed up for a lot of different ones. They were low cost or no cost. So that, I mean, I really, without going into more detail, so many steps of that business of being in business, I learned from that. Up in San Francisco, they had a small business development center. I got introduced to another group called SCORE, which is a group of retired executives who, if you have a specific need. So, for example, when I wanted to talk to somebody about marketing or talk to someone about building a business plan, then I could sign up and have somebody help mentor me and answer questions and such. So really huge, huge, huge help. I would pick up books, say I'm going to go talk to an attorney about a legal entity. I take a workshop on it and I picked up a book that was all about creating a California corporation. And so I'd read enough to be knowledgeable. What's the vocabulary, be able to ask good questions? Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, it was a lot of learning. That way, you know, to help me out. I was talking directly with other people who were consultants, you know, who helped me out and gave me advice. So, so I mean, I had a lot of people who helped me along the way. So I try to do that for other people who are thinking of it, too. With a robust catalog of courses offered on demand and industry leading live online sessions throughout the year, the Dataversity Training Center is your launchpad for career success. Browse the complete catalog at training.dataversity.net and use code DVTOX for 20 percent off your purchase. Oh, I love that so much. I actually subscribed to the local Small Business Association chapter. Just to see what's going on and it helps me. We're a fairly small business and, you know, it helps a lot. Yeah, yeah, just to see how people are innovating and what's going on locally, you know. So yeah, it's a great resource. It can be everything. It can be something as mundane as accounting and finding a bookkeeper to innovative ideas and what are new technology to help small businesses, you know, that type of thing. So yeah, that's great. Yeah, yeah. So then, you know, what has been your biggest lesson so far in your career that you kind of take with you and and and maybe, you know, pass on to mentees? Yeah, so it is hard to narrow that down to one thing. But I am going to start with show up. And by that, I mean go to a conference, get on LinkedIn, participate in a group. You mentioned, you know, you're attending this chapter. So join a professional association. Show up, whether it's in person or whether it's virtual show up because I could tell you every step along the way in my career from when I first said that I went to that conference. Remember, I said I took time off of work, you know, unpaid time off of work, which was really tight for me to do that, to go to that conference because I showed up and I talked to people when I'm there. Yeah, I met that vice president. I had him say, have you ever thought about going to California? Right. It was showing up. I can give you examples for every single step. So like when my company that I had come to California and they got bought out. Yeah. When I first moved to California, I said, I'm going to look around, see what kind of professional associations are out there, start attending some chapter meetings because I was still early in that career after getting my degree and it could go different directions. And so I joined a couple of different associations and attended some chapter meetings because I'm exploring and learning what opportunities are out there. It was at one of those that I met someone who said, oh, I really wish we had a job opening for you. We don't have any. So when I found out my company was being bought out by another company, he was the first person that I called and he ended up hiring me in. So I could I have a story like that for every major step in my career from way back then to 30 years later. So show up, you know, sometimes people say, well, it's not who you know, but what, you know, it's not what you know, but who you know and might grumble about it. It's it's both. Right. But if people don't know you, if people haven't met you, if people don't know you are out there, how can you have an opportunity? Now, once you have that opportunity, you have to show that you know your stuff. You know, it's really important that you know what you're doing, but show up and and if I only get to tell you one, that's the one. There's others, but that's really, really important. And it is really important. Yeah. And and I love that that lesson and how you keep applying it. So, gosh, you know, you got into data. You've been in data for quite a bit. You stumbled into it pretty early in your career. Yes. You know, so what is your definition of data? My my definition of data. OK, so sometimes I throw data and information around, you know, as synonyms. I just think of data as as items of interest, facts or items of interest and information are those facts or items of interest in context. And I keep it like really simple that way because, I mean, data can be high tech, which is what we usually think about. We've got databases, data stores, you know, data lakes, you know, we've got that those facts or items of interest in there. But data and information can also be low tech. Data can be information that somebody has written on a piece of paper. That's low tech, but we still have to be able to manage that. We still have to be able to find that. We still have to be able to use that. We still have to make make sure that it is of the quality that we need. So, yeah, there there there you there you go on on that one. I love that. I love to sing dancers on that. That's really great. So is it OK if I go back and just give you a couple of those other lessons because I gave you the show up, but I'm just going to give you a couple of other ones. And I think I've already illustrated it that have a plan. Yeah. But be open to new opportunities. Yeah. So sometimes you have this plan of where your career is going to go or where you think it's going to go. And I'm big on planning and working it and going towards something. But sometimes these unexpected opportunities come up. So keep your mind open to the fact that something new may come along that you don't even know exists out there. So I think that's one. I think the other one is like be a lifetime learner. So, for example, I started going to conferences from biodiversity like years ago when I was an employee, you know, in a company. Yeah, because I was really learning a lot of things there. I met a lot of people that way, but you really need to be a lifetime learner. Yeah, I so agree with that. Yeah, continue to to do that. I was so naive when I was really young. You know, I thought you get to play where you just know everything. I was so stuck on perfection and like, like, when am I going to be perfect? Like, oh, yeah, never. But I think, yeah, but that's really important to learn, isn't it? Right. Yeah. And it's and my variation on what you have just said, you know, I'm just trying to be perfect is being able to say, I don't know. Because when I first got hired, you know, I'm thinking, you know, I knew they had very high expectations of me because of what they had done and how they helped me get there. And, you know, all of these things and I was afraid of letting them down. So if I thought, if I didn't know the answer to every question that they would immediately say, oh, my gosh, we hired the wrong person. Right. Yeah. And it takes a certain level of self-confidence and maturity to be able to say, oh, I don't know the answer to that question or I'll get back with you. I will check into it and not be fearful of that not being perfect. Right. Not be fearful of the not knowing. Yeah. And once you once you can embrace that and you say, oh, that's the way of life. Yeah, we can't know everything. And and if somebody is expecting me to know everything, it means they're really uninformed and I'm not going to let their opinion, you know, stop me. Nice. I love that. Yeah, it's so true. Right. Oh, such great advice to that. So tell me, though. So do you see having that work with so many companies and being a consultant, you know, do you see the importance of data management and the number of jobs working with data increasing or decreasing over the next 10 years and why? Well, I really think that the jobs are going to increase. I think they might look a little different, you know, I'm going to just talk out loud a little bit with you about that. Yeah, please. So, yes, I definitely see that there are more jobs, data specific jobs, which I think is very important, and I think those will continue. Given the nature of what data is, as we've already said, it's in between business, in between technology. You need to have good communication skills. So to to be good in data, you need to have some good communication. So whether you're a data modeler, you still have to talk to people to build a data modeler, if you're an architect, you know, if you're a data quality analyst, if you're a data steward, if you lead a governance program, whatever that is, there is some aspect of having to interact with people. So building those kinds of skills. But then you see things like we've got data science. And and and so I think data and a career in data is a very interesting intersection of what we've already said of the technology, the business, actually knowing there are there is data expertise that is about data itself. But that that whole communication and where is AI going? Yeah, knowing even knowing things like statistics and being able to do a valid sample and making sure you don't have bias in your day. I mean, there are just so many aspects that come together in data that we that I probably wouldn't even have been thinking of it quite that way 30 years ago. So I think data is interesting. There's so much opportunity, so many different directions. I mean, data intersects with technology and intersects with processes. It intersects with organizational. You know, how do we set up an organization? What are our roles and responsibilities? You know, it intersects with that. It intersects with finance. How do we show that working with data is even worthwhile? It intersects with risk management, you know? So it might be that some of the things that we've traditionally called data. It is still there. But we continue to move data into many other kinds of professions. And and in fact, I think we need to. So if you if you think about this, because I've been saying this for a while. Yeah, one of the root causes of our problems from a data industry is we don't have enough degrees at a higher education level. And we don't have enough classes. We don't have enough degrees in this. So I think every every MBA program in the world needs to make sure they have something really solid about data. Sometimes. Their data is go take a programming class. OK, that's not a bad thing to do, but we need the data expertise. People come out with an MBA. They know something about finance. They know accounting. They know organizational development, et cetera, et cetera. What do they know about data? Well, if the only thing they took was a programming class, they don't know what they need to know about data. These are our leaders of tomorrow. They are making decisions. So we as consultants, as people like you, as people inside companies have to continue to educate their leadership. Where we're in this cycle, I would like to see that broken and have more at the higher education level. And that's where it's going to start going out. So if you think about it, let's pretend I go to school and I'm going to be a forest ranger. But as a forest ranger, are there things I need to know about data? Absolutely. We make decisions about how we manage wildlife or what we do with our lands and it depends on data. So even if I'm going to be a forest ranger, there is something, some nuggets of some things that I need to know so I can be smart about the data that I use that supports my profession. And we can apply that against any profession. So as we get that out, we will make more of an impact. But the data jobs will still stay. But I'm hoping those data pieces are going to show up everywhere else too. Yes, indeed. And that's the best part about data, right? And the career in data management is it touches every industry, you know, every business, you know, there's there's nothing you can't do and nowhere you can't go in that. Yeah, absolutely. And I highly encourage people to look at data as a profession. It is fun. It is exciting. It has kept me going for 30 years. And can you tell I'm still enthusiastic about it? I mean, I have not lost any of my energy around this. And it, in fact, at one of the data versatility conferences, I did a keynote called Data Quality Can Save the World. And it first started out being a little bit facetious. And but the more I worked on the keynote and now the more since then, I absolutely believe it. You know, data, the right data, the right quality data, honestly can save the world because we depend so much on it. And people, you know, people can see that, people can see that today. So I really, really encourage people to to look at data as a really good, solid, fulfilling, exciting career. That's great advice, Danette. And you've literally written like you mentioned, you know, how many books now? Well, most people know me for my 10 steps methodology, 10 steps to quality data and trusted information. So the first edition came out in 2008. A year later, it was translated into Chinese. And I was told that it was the very first book, complete book, not just an article, complete book on the subject of data quality ever available in Chinese. Wow. And so in 2021, I finally came out with the second edition of that book, which includes many more examples, different organizations, different places around the world, how this has helped them and how they've been able to apply that. And so in between those two and writing the second edition is like writing the second book, even though the 10 steps held the test of time, you know, all the additional experience that is included in that. So in between that, there's lots of workshops and articles and and and things that I've done. Yeah, that's amazing. So and I would be remiss if I didn't ask Danette, you know, if somebody wanted to solicit your services, how do they find you? Yes, go out to gfalls.com. My company is Granite Falls Consulting or Danette at gfalls.com. Danette McGillery, you can Google me. You'll be able to find me. You can find me on LinkedIn. Nice. Nice. And we'll get all those links added. You can find me. Thank you. And where is your book available? OK, my book is available anywhere books are sold. Obviously, Amazon is one of the big ones. You can go out to Elsevier.com. That is the publisher. If you use the discount code COMP30, C-O-M-P-3-0, you can get a 30 percent discount off just off my book. Yes. In addition, off any of their data books that are part of their science and technology line. Nice. It's very nice. Oh, yeah, go get that. You go use that. Take advantage of that. Who doesn't want to save money? Right. Right. And keep the learning going. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Dana, this has been so great. I'm so excited to have talked with you today. Thank you so much for taking the time. Yeah. Thank you, Shannon. It's it's really fun to take a moment and kind of reflect back on what got me here. So I've enjoyed that. Oh, it's been such a pleasure. Thank you so much. And I will see you not only in the enterprise data world, but DGIQ data governance and information quality conference in December or December. December. Yeah. Yeah. In D.C. I had to think about that for a moment. Very exciting. Well, Danette, again, thank you so much. 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