 Good evening everyone. Let me welcome everyone of you at this workshop and let me just say that and I know to English speaker I'm very pleased to have you all here just a bit of explanation or introduction to this workshop before I introduce the guests concerning the context of this workshop of this meeting there are two contexts one of them relates directly to the festival the situation of the festival confrontations of theater that we have focused on thinking about theater as public institution of art and the second context is the third double issue of the Polish theater journal a new magazine which deals with Polish theater and its context is issues issued by the Zbigniew Rzeczewski theater institute and the Academy of Dramatic Arts in Warsaw so we've got the editorial team representatives and we have Dorota Buchwald director of the theater institute Agata Dametska head of the scientific and publishing department at this institute and Tomasz Plata Dean of theater knowledge Academy of Dramatic Arts in Warsaw and curator of Commune Warsaw and his fans as I can see just let me begin with the context that we've been trying together with Agata Dametska to describe in a paper and introduction to the Polish theater journal newest edition Agata just invited me to work with her on this issue because I'm dealing with the institutional critique and our task was to look into institutions and their operations for the organization of theater in this context during the work was very dynamic was changing dynamically we started work in a situation a bit different than a year later when the issue was actually published on the website and just one note the magazine is web-based totally and what you can see behind us is the main page the homepage it's www.polishjournal.com you can find all the papers all the articles in English version as you can see there are abstracts and PDF with Polish versions as well available on the website so in facts back to the context I'm thinking about social and economic and political context in which Polish theaters operate and Polish theater related organizations institutions and para institutions dealing with power performative arts and the context was also related to politics in Poland but it was also changing because it's somehow exploited or exhausted or came to the verge of the institution in the late capitalism neoliberal system where the institution of theater especially public theater from my perspective at least is trapped somehow and one side its task is to pursue a mission of public theater which is impossible to pursue anywhere else outside the institution and it's a privilege but it's a huge responsibility as it's financed from public funds specific tasks vesting in it and it operates in specific economic context even if that's a municipal property it is subject to some capitalist requirements which means that needs to produce more and more it needs to be more and more attractive it is held accountable for the sales of tickets and necessarily of how the mission is is met or the audience of frequency and this means a trap for the institutions a kind of clash between developing or opening up the space for its activity for artistic freedom freedom and meeting the economic requirements for operation and my impression is well kind of like in business like a company so let me start with the question to all our guests how in our political economic and social context what institutions do we need and what from your point of view does it mean to be public theater public theater public institution well it's a capacious question really for an introduction I don't know where to start from I would say that for me the thinking about theater and culture in Poland at this moment the determining the dominant perspective is of course politics political perspective and I would start from it in the first place so we are we have guests from abroad and I think the context is quite legible to you for two years we've been in with the situation when this is a new era for us a new era of the cultural politics and policies there's a reversal from the concept of the public culture that we've developed with some successes and pitfalls we have developed for 20 so years that is the culture that is understood as a tool to integrate society to educate people to include society the inclusion and social integration were limited of course mainly because of the basic assumptions hidden assumptions of the neoliberalism as the inclusion the civic society you need to have special competence some specific competence as to be part of the audience for a public culture you need you need it to have some potential some knowledge and growth opportunities and so on but still my impression is that there was a some space a bit limited but a space for intensive dialogue there was no situation in short of a kind of open ideological determination and this is what we are dealing with just now this is from the ruling party I mean they are quite explicit about their assumptions that public funds may only serve to support those forms of culture and artistic activity that are in line with national or nationalistic values and that and the relationship with Catholic religion especially defined as national heritage determined by historical policies so my impression is that it's very difficult for us today this is a moment where we have to name things as they are what cultural institution should be because we are losing the context we are losing the notions of what we have agreed about in the past so I think that what's most important just now it's a strong movement in the domain of culture I would say this kind of transmission or moving the accent from artistic culture to social culture to the actual self-organization local communities and working with local communities animation and education activities so to me well I would go for going back to the postulates that we published together with drug and client but I would like to be more radical I've got the impression that the concept of great big large institutions well did not prove to be successful and it was so because at this moment politically and socially we are where we are and this needs to be devised anew and the Rota will counter me so let me just preempt that of course public theaters are common good and should be defended but at the same time we need to work towards a new form of understanding of public theater and in my opinion it's fundamental that we move away from this concept of artistic work produced in in theaters so the theaters are to produce the stagings and generate symbolic meanings there are theaters and theaters and there are other cultural institutions where we need to develop new forms of being together to articulate community togetherness something that does not homogenize us or unifies us that does not require a kind of declarative identity but just giving us a form of involvement of engagement and I would say this is the definition to devise new missions for public cultural institutions including theaters where's this counter argument the Rota well I there's nothing I can add to this I agree with you John perhaps I would put a question mark just over the last fragment because I think that this idea that theater can become you know a place to search for can radically understood community not radical perhaps you know again possible potential no it's a general question and perhaps we could ask this referring to the slogan of today's action that is theater is not a product and you know the viewer is not a consumer or customer so it's a question mark I would put on over the last sentence John just I'm thinking to what extent this perspective should be transcended or whether the initiators would be in a position would be able to present a kind of binding vision for for us reaching this perspective because the main initiators the main originators are still involved in producing mainly producing staging producing cultural products so to say so generally I would agree it is a vision that's quite close to me just one reservation perhaps it's worthwhile thinking about this kind of utopian character of the last element that's you I would argue but let me have the broader speak first no that I mean we shouldn't be quarreling here you should just be a bit less radical in saying that cultural theatrical institutions perhaps don't go too broadly into culture itself let's just stick to theater institutions the main point is that they are different they are varied that they can exist together or next to each other so that the institutions with you know certain profile of of activity exist together with other profile like experimental ones and if they don't exist just let's create them let's show everyone that it's possible to create a new institution and the law allows that today allows us to construe institutions in line with the needs of artists and and groups that want to get involved so everything's possible what I'm opposing is this kind of thinking through the prism well and I've got an experience of 30 years documenting cultural life in Poland and I have an in-depth knowledge of how theatrical institutions operate in Poland and and this complex context and context and and this clash between the company of business and theater and cultural institutions the point is that if you read all those books that we have published that we have kind of embedded in our things thinking and just look at the perspectives and what has happened in Western Europe and then then North America and we really should draw conclusions about the consequences of radical decisions towards institutions institution is a fact that it exists and it's a very important fact and the law actually allows artistic institutions to appear to institutionalize the theater so it's a privilege of public funding that's one point that you have mentioned before there is some subsidy coming from state budget but there is also responsibility coming with it but there's also another feature there is autonomy provided for in the law for it autonomy it means independence freedom for this institution to create phenomena and movements that's are created by artists are in line with the needs theater is cultural institutions and cultural institutions invite the artists to work with them and generate generate events but don't have you know kind of fixed teams you know full-time employed so this is a privilege of autonomy for for the institution and the stake together and that's why I wrote about that it's a defense of institution based on the recognition of the facts after 250 years of public theater in Poland and 25 years of the new post socialist system and public theater operating in it that in view of the changes faced with the changes that are simply happening and law of course is changing as well and in various forms today and not perhaps quite in line with culture needs in Poland but still the law is here is in place and it allows us to fight for the freedom for autonomy of cultural institutions giving us guarantee to pursue certain program and the way of how it's organized because institutions don't have to be organized you know uniformly across all times and in all situations internal organization can vary between institutions and this gives a guarantee of artistic freedom because what's outside the institution can happen may happen should happen as there are different opportunities also funding opportunities in different systems than the public one but the very fact of existence of these institutions well should be defended they should be defended because if we see what has happened in America you know public funding was withdrawn from cultural institutions then brought about the kind of kind of you know closure of theater in in America the dusk of theater as we put it in in our paper so from our perspective there's nothing interesting in there in the U.S. and what was brought to Europe together with economic crisis and this pressure and self-limitation puts on cultural institutions forcing them to combine to reduce to co-produce and some institutions have never regained the independence since then we need to think quite carefully before we start weakening the institutions from inside we should be quarreling again of whether the institution is capable or incapable of something we should fight for the autonomy of the institution so the pressure any pressure whether political social or economic does not lead in a loss of these cultural institutions the law is quite open I would say quite flexible to preserve this diversity when we have a look at this 120 public theater they are very different both in size and in profile and we don't have you know large cultural large theater institutions in the European perspective is just small and medium-sized institutions only small houses just look at Lublin 400 seats it's not huge really it's not it's a house that needs to be nurtured and and cared for so that it can operate as designed as programmed so it's a time for defense so don't don't let's lose let's give new ideas to nurture to support to contribute and let me have let me be personal just now though and in in the 80s I was sitting in hot kajaka and in the students club in Lublin and we're just watching films about how to build community and how to contribute development of theater then I can say that well there's experimental movements they are avant-garde in a sense always and they they are not going to become mainstream but the mainstream sources its energy from from this off or alternative movements and institutions can help with that and my point is we should defend them thank you very much for these answers and let me just refer to what the water bull has said and mind you we've got Alan Kucharski professor Alan Kucharski from smorthgold college who can tell us in detail about the American funding system for no for theater and how it impacts theaters in the U.S. and from my perspective kind of painful story a story that should be included in Frederick Martyrs book the story of the Nature Theatre of Oklahoma Company which lost its team when I was quite successful in a visitage all the major theater festivals across Europe only because stagings were funded from public institutions in Europe the Vienna Berg theater was in financial crisis and could not fund the theater and the company anymore well the team just broke up so and actors players were the first victims of the situation so from this perspective it's all the more so that the fans of public institutions and well theater institutions and then artistic institutions is is essential is key of course what I have doubts about is what institutions should we defend in what form are these institutions what character do they have and I'm thinking about the Polish situation just now through the changes and the dangers of direct interference from from the politics both the municipal and the city the national level the dominant thinking is that you know decision maker for public funding has the right to act as the owner and prohibits certain directions or change the directions theater operates which is quite contrary in my opinion to this character of cultural institution well but it's a mistake in our thinking there are three theaters that reports to the state out of 120 but if you just have a look at the city interference there are quite quite rare it's a rare phenomenon than than cities or organizers and it's also well they simply don't have the right to interfere with the autonomy of cultural institutions well it's true but I'm not saying that public theaters are funded from the Ministry of culture and these are ministerial decisions or interference of course we should be precise about distinguishing between municipal city the organizations and so on and to give an example premieres last year where the Marshall of the province demanded or tried to influence the program of the festival was disagreeing with with with the program and Oliver village stagings the well if I can see that it was asking wasn't elected wasn't elected by by the Ministry but the was a direct but it is worthwhile to be you know to criticize that you know the whole situation and there are a lot of such decisions not only from the Ministry but from local organizers from local governments but it is it's a kind of reference to a kind of we should keep the back of our hands to all those who are not quite familiar with the Polish context and the Polish situation today what we observe now is a moment when if a public institution theater institutions and large festivals change the profile from international to Polish ones just like premieres in in in Bidgush after the director was changed or the changes of directors which you know leads to the loss of critical experimental players actors we don't have any prospect to offer them we don't have kind of independent movement and circle for performative arts to make them to involve them to include them to let them work further and I'm thinking why and I'm thinking that perhaps we have been short of this critical perspective on the public institutions on the model of its operations and the model they promote they establish and what it means for the whole society this whole circle of theater people in Poland and how come the democratic theatrical institutions kind of duplicates the hierarchy of institutional theater where the split of tasks and responsibilities quite clear or very vertical rigidly structured structured and I think that perhaps you know this critical or constructive analysis of this theater space that would allow us to look into the motors of production of model of work to think about what we have and whether it's the only possible possibility that this is something we missed that we were short of and it's a critical it's a very dangerous moment just now where the autonomy of institutions is endangered and I don't know if we are at risk duplicating you know schemata and patterns again in the future if we withdraw from this critical thinking just let me say that I think that the program that the vision is just a minimum program but it's a radically conservative one because you say well let's maintain let's preserve the status quo let's preserve the extent the scope it's radically conservative extremely conservative because you you want to know I'm saying don't lose what we have don't don't just let us lose well in face of the crisis that we are dealing with well you are talking about institutions about like you know I'm a historic entity kind of end of history in the forms of culture it's not the fact as a matter of fact it's an emanation of certain needs that late bourgeoisie society established in the late 19th century and well repertoire theater operates according to the models devised back then so it's a it's an extremely political tool and it serves a certain social model it conserves the model and now the situation is that we need to be clear it's insufficient it's insufficient for democracy to survive if we are interested in searching but it's it's key to survival of culture which just let me finish please the roadside so it's insufficient absolutely insufficient in my opinion and there are at least two or three the vectors to complicate this kind of thinking you say that there are the diverse institutions the question is about audience and we've got a clear answer to who's not the audience people who don't come don't go to theaters they are kind of four class or low class and it's a fact it's knowledge from our last survey of the audiences it's published on the website of theater institute the project the research was led by professor Fatiga and they are quite clear we don't communicate to these audiences in any way and culture created in public institutions of culture especially in theaters are class-based is a tool to distinguish between classes social classes and the problem is that in Poland half of the society does do not participate in elections in democracy itself we know that the current ruling party came to power by the votes of conservative middle class but if you have a look in the dynamics in the politics we know that you know some powers in society have been triggered the powers that the strengths of those who were excluded before who did not take part in culture and this is mainly the folks the dough the low parts so if we stick to this model the public funding of cultural institutions that communicate with only part of society then we we are going to work towards a more power and and you know towards the model that is strengthening today thinking about nationalist the state and institutions and if you say about autonomy we are fighting for autonomy of institutions what does it mean I mean who's got the power in cultural institutions what are the mechanisms verified mechanisms for democratization of cultural institutions where's this empowerment of the companies of the teens in theater the law is quite clear the power and responsibility vests in director of the institution and the mechanism is not quite clear the competition for the appointment of directors and if you say that these institutions should articulate community then perhaps they shouldn't be you know produced staging you know building a community is building relationships within the team based on different mechanisms of production and mechanism of mechanisms of democracy of democratization and if we don't provide for a new opportunity for a new model of functioning of the institution then we are going just to duplicate the model that is insufficient and incapable just now well I wouldn't say it's incapable we've got 50,000 seats in the houses we've got a number of people in the as directors of these institutions and they are responsible they have their health liable for the program adopted in the in the competition and and of course the competition committees and the boards well are provided for in the law and they've got representatives of the teams of the organizers of the funding institutions observers also can take parts in the in the settings local people of importance the knowledgeable people and representatives of theater community as well and all this in my opinion well perhaps some fails to work and and and well it does work at times but it doesn't at others so perhaps the institutions you are talking about it you know do not work in this democratic model and there are different attempts to transform the structures on primarial structures creative structures in theaters the question is whether the artistic outcome you know is in any way related in the in the way we produce stagings whether you know these models are conducive to the final the effects if you prove me that there's a strong relationship perhaps we need to change but if you have no proof that for an institution institution to be autonomous to pursue its artistic program you know it's kind of is incapable of doing this in the current model then to me it means it operates well again we've got 50,000 seats in the houses well it's not quite large it's not massive and that you know popularity of theater is quite limited five million tickets sold so it's I can't say these are you know unique viewers if we can only you know counts that the tickets sold so it's 17% of the national population so it's on average it's much higher than in any place in the world so the average of participation of the audience is quite high and it's only about theater I'm talking about the data that we've got it comes not only from public theaters from central statistical institutions different sources and bungee about 600 non-public institutions yes and they provide us with data and we count them annually so it's more than five million participants five million tickets sold and we know that they are more of them and mind you it will never get 50% of society attending theaters attending stagings and the institutions that well are based located in cities the public institutions well they will never they will never operate in other places in the new in the countryside so why put them at risk you know from this internal critique that you want to pursue why you know you know attacking them they are never going to play the function that you want to impose on them again it's worthwhile building institutions also new other institutions in new places again yesterday we had a meeting with representative of West Pomerania theater offensive a movement that tries to map and unify independent companies independent circles putting forward new proposals for amendment to the law as these circles seem to be quite neglected on the current legislation and they only operate on the public benefit provisions so the question is how the changes to come can influence the art of institution map of organizations of circles of societies so this is something with we should think about with a view to creating new institutions to creating institutions that will give work give jobs to these teams more stable than project-based or kind of support or programs not oriented to the product the final outcome or deliverable that we face with this repertoire based traditional institutions well it's something you know that can be devised but again it's you know it's it's the roots it's you know it's upside upside upside the movement well it's it's dancing movements I would say we are decision-makers in Warsaw and if an institution a theatrical institution to be established in Warsaw that would be different from a different you know from a theater with fixed team of actors production house whatever you call it well I've spent a lot of my private time for lobbying for you know talking to people and quite recently I learned that the easiest way to establish an institution like that perhaps not even an institution just is to get funding through an existing public institution because under the current legislation well the the artistic freedom artistic activity freedom act provides that organizes is liable for maintaining an institution but it's not bound not required to fund and NGOs so the difference in funding is drastic is huge even in Warsaw where NGOs are quite strong the total funding for NGOs in various profiles it's a scale of the of the smallest public theater in Warsaw the total amount transfers to NGOs per random in Warsaw so if you have this queue of the need of the needs the existing institutions will be the first and the ministry is obliged to maintain them financially usually it's done by you know giving subsidies and you know establishing certain general budgets not task-based budgets there are tasks paid budget budgets well the split of budgets of distribution is decided by city councils and ministry is not the decision maker the ultimate decision maker so distribution be quite different it's possible well it's possible but this is not the fact so there is this you know pressure from the root that has proved to be ineffective so far and we have failed and as we had don't have any you know political power and we are not a partner in a political game it's just a symbolic position that that we've got without any political strength or possibility to exerts a political influence so we have failed compared to Krzysztof Warlikowski for instance but then the the choir of women had you know some commercial success as well so it's a comparable but the women choir you know is not after any public funding and you know we are thinking about you know getting or applying for political influence but it's not about you know the system it's about the imagination of public authorities well I'm talking about reality here and this is what we've got actually and just one more rule in the law you said about something about autonomy of the cultural institutions well in the perspective of three to five seasons or years the term of office for a director we know a couple of people in these positions who be two years before the expiry of the term of office start thinking about how to make sure they are appointed again well this postulate was raised by the community by the theater circle so the autonomy is a slogan rather than the fact and it's unavoidable I think the space of theater or the space of theater institution is a space of you know those political tensions and it's embedded in it and it's only we can't avoid it and whether you know theater assumes or accepts that as a topic to pronounce it in favor or against the power but it doesn't matter I'm not thinking about you know imaginations of theater as a kind of naive innocent space of dialogue well don't don't argue with me like that as many it's too convenient for you you are projecting your ideas to what I have said before well in fact theater that you know makes a theme of its political position well it's the only thing that we can achieve but why don't we just you know take another route for this discussion as I got a said well the fetish of the low class or the the folk class as a potential audience and a companion and a lie of our thinking about how theater could or should look like it's in its utopia in my opinion the class the folk class strictly speaking and simply speaking the change that we are witnessing just now is accepted by the class honestly accepted and and finds understanding in the folk class in the low class in my opinion for class you know what we can't recover these audiences but is it your fantasies or is it your knowledge the RASM sociological research led by Levitsky and and Gdulla and Sidura and and you know very surprising findings about nationalism conservatism provincial Catholicism of the folk class in a very surprising findings and just let me remind you you know theater and now before the war and the avant-garde projects you know there's a great theater tradition behind it we are going to publish a book performance of remembrance in our institute based on these sources it seems to be you know very interesting and with great achievements so I protest and that don't let's use you know a notion that reformed institutions should demonstrate you know a proper artistic level because these categories are not quite interesting to us these are categories with some historical burden and originating from some aesthetic rigid framework and you know to go beyond this framework is is key now as to the folk class and the potential participation in culture what this narrative hasn't been heard or emphasized yet the other narrative or story is one that emphasizes the relationship or the connection of the liberal tradition with the experiment in art or the experimental movement in art which is quite close to me and it's it maybe demonstrates it's quite well that there is historic relationship between the two and I know that the definitions or the mind culture that liberal and neoliberal you know will move our discussion to you know to some strange domains at variance from what we actually announced at the beginning but let's let's be open you know I've got some resistance in me against that these are fantasies about the folk class much you do learn his research you know it's not the good basis for this argument well sorry but you say you know the historic burden theater and institutions born in Poland in the late 19th century while the city the citizens build the theaters because they needed to they needed them and these institutions exist and they've got some guarantee for public funding for subsidies it's a guarantee and they don't have to fight for it it's 50% 70% level of the total funds well there is you know a part that they need to arrange for themselves but still new institutions you know where established before World War II and using this novel mechanism developed artistic novelties and we are not interested as audience in the internal organization of theater we are interested in artistic experience in in internally inside emotions aesthetic emotions and and and so on so it's a matter at the end of the day of what we can propose to people and what we can propose in my opinion is that the community of theater people perceives and acknowledges the value in in that diversity is key to what needs to happen and that we need to combine our efforts to join to undertake joint efforts but it's a quite obvious argument let's say if an X amount should go to you know production house then the question is who is going to be deprived of this X amount but it's not true and we need to prove it to local governments of course local governments you know are in a position to distribute their budgets differently and they don't need to grab money from someone else but there is a language there's a narrative behind which theaters are valuable and which are not and it's an anecdote I've got in come come on a workshop where in we are nominated to to cultural channel on the Polish television prize and one of the three nominees and the winner was a Polish theater in Wroclaw let me mention that the first person to appear on the stage was director and that was a prize to the team to the company of actors and the first commentary it was that the team was very satisfied because it was yet another proof that it was only within an institutional theater that the company can create artistic theater that it was the only model so it was kind of leveraging the institutional position to replicate of what was there in place and it was the first moment when I thought about micro theater project just to reverse the situation and it's very difficult and the road as you say and it's a frequent argument try you know try to convince persuade you've got contacts and so on so go to the officials that you know yes we do know them and we go to them we meet you know at dinners we drink with them and so on I don't drink with them so the Rosa all right we've been doing this for years to know if fact really and it's not a dream that Warsaw establishes a new institution well Warsaw has established a new institution recently Paul's nine has established one and so on to me it's you know beyond any possibility for the city council of Warsaw to vote for the establishment of a new institution cultural institution so we are looking for new opportunities we argue we convince people we persuade them we spend a lot of time that we could spend otherwise and to know if act so it's not the right way I think and more than that it's not that an argument in favor of this institution this kind of institution or this institutional situation or place like this is not should not be the first argument for it should not be the ideological decision it should be a decision about the change of artistic practice resulting from the observation of how artistic practice has changed of how many new artists have emerged who don't fit into institutional framework of course they may feed to the detriment of the of themselves I mean they take efforts to fit into the structures of institutional theater you will see the staging Vojtek Zemecki who spent a lot of time outside the community outside the institution for various reasons last year he decided to join the institution and and create two stagings and this gesture after the choir of women it's just yet another the examples of you know successful winners in various festivals and in my opinion Vojtek doesn't fit or fits in the institution with difficulty and operates to large parts out of the institutions perhaps he doesn't need one well he does because in fact in principle and any artist needs institutional support Comuna Varshava produced some five projects by Vojtek but it's incapable it is not in a position to export these productions abroad for instance we don't have the resources to do this and when Vojtek enters the institution an open one they're very conscious aware of what's going on then he gets an international success and it's not the only one there is a community who operate who work in a different way it's a different type of theater it's a different kind of dance of performance and let me have another anecdote I've been trying to enter the same institution myself and together with Vojtek we are going to pursue a new project in Nova theater and the expectation from the theaters that they work with their team as they are employed full-time and simply can't afford you know having the actors inactive so it's not the first thought Vojtek would have on his mind you know working with professional actors in theater so in my opinion it's a kind of it's a practical reflection a practical thought based on experience and we've caught you know very interesting artists that don't fit and it's worthwhile that they don't fit and perhaps they need a new institution yes but until this day none of the officials none of the old authorities we have discussed these issues with never understood our arguments our post postulates and each time they refer to you know the scope of funding well to six public theaters in Warsaw for example it's a very good example that you gave it's not only about Vojtek Zimilski as five years of working on the festival has shown and what's quite important in the program of the festival is that the form of work is of major importance for the for the outcome and if the audience comes to a theater to a venue for cultural institutions you know for the for the sake of meeting with new artistic practice in my opinion I hope we have succeeded in showing this the rules and forms of working and producing the works is well it's key to the outcome Globscote and Shishi's quote and their experience shows that quite clearly their production were only successful because of independent production houses and the effect is kind of visible quite clearly seen in the forms the form of working translating to the relationship with the audience between the performance and the audience between the choreography and viewers and from five years of curating work over the program we see that many Polish artists could successfully pursue such projects similar projects and similar to Shishi and Globscote well they could visit international festivals but it's not happening because they are kind of sucked in by repertoire based theaters and this influences affects the artistic practice and within a while they will be sucked or they will be treated like you know debuts after five years of work without any chances for serious productions and so on Veronica one hour couldn't produce anything come in a workshop because she doesn't have you know resources to maintain the team in for which she feels responsible so the methods and forms of work are hugely important and you said well one of the results or the consequences that certain productions will not appear at all well yesterday I spoke with about a staging of choreography and performance for five dancers just show me a director who could attend you know rehearsals and let her you know stage this performance in his or her institution public institution and there is Martha there is there are a number of people among artists whose work will never be published or staged but well yes it's true but it doesn't mean that you know this opinion about institution institutions means we should deprive them of public funding for instance well we need determination in searching for new ways to create new institutions it is possible and happens in Krakow in post nine in Lublin where we've got kind of umbrella and institutions that kind of nurtures independent startups in theaters yes but Lublin theaters and the models of performances of stages in the center of culture is quite to quite close to repertoire based theater kind of very near to commercial theater I would say and then performative arts are not going to be continued in these institutions in this institution so it's a kind of another sign of the change that has happened another example comes from the post nine the working stage working the scene which has offered two artistic residences per year with a budget of ten thousand Polish slotty per year so it's negligible anyone who would like to join this discussion please if you could just introduce yourself please first I'm really sorry I'm really sorry about my Polish and I'm speaking like a naive American from a poor country America a baby but the basic question is where we are today where we are specifically we are here in the house of culture in the institution of culture specifically we are in Lublin we are you know in a provincial city in Poland why are we here together because there's a festival going on a huge prestigious international festival long established in Lublin a provincial city in Lublin in the center of culture we are professor of the Academy of dramatic art in Warsaw yes for any student how much does it cost to study at your Academy I can't give you a specific amount the students don't pay and that's democracy in the United States is a scandalous situation Harvard University they withdrew a well-known program for theater because every student would need to have one hundred and fifty thousand dollars at his hand at her hand to study at that department and when I speak to other Americans about the system educational system for dramatic art they simply don't believe for a free of charge you know academic calls it's the true democracy come on in the US there's no system of the houses of culture or the centers of culture like this one this is democracy and if we if you are talking about you know theaters for folk class this is the houses of culture the centers of culture are for folk class really coming from France come coming from the Western Europe and Dorota Buchwald great almanac for the Polish theater it's a miracle we have nothing comparable in the United States we have we don't have any Institute of theater in the United States but then thanks to the armonarx I know that at least 300 festivals are held in organized in Poland it just you know on the on the cover page I know it's even more 400 per year Poland's population equals you know California it is just the same the state of California the richest state in the United States have ever had you know 300 festivals in a year it's unimaginable it's unimaginable unbelievable 300 festivals in a single state perhaps they have two that's democracy and those festivals are organized across Poland and this you know this bad repertoire based company our actors in the school dramatic art in Philadelphia when Shimon Vrubleski from Adam Mickiewicz Institute gave a lecture about professional actors in repertoire based theaters in Poland our students were surprised was it possible you know that an actor lives in a system like this it has his health insurance has his you know pension scheme guaranteed you know then and and they can have children you know it's democracy and it's possible for Polish students to become actors without paying for academies and if there is a problem with the content the program of the Polish theater it's not Paul that people in in in in Kelce in in in Krakow in Bielsk Objawa have repertoire theater in any place it's because public intervention I don't know the statistics I've heard 1% of the central budget for culture in Poland in in the US for theater it's just 1,000th percent for all arts 1,000th percent and the last thing the system of theaters for children come on people in this group how many of you have seen have watched you know the theatrical performance for children at your school when you are pupils professional theater for children how many of you everyone perhaps in the United States there are three cities that have such theaters for children only three and most of our students and the most you know the highest the top five you know universities in the United States never saw a theater for children in the school life and every year every pupil can watch in a professional staging made specifically for children in Poland that's democracy come on Polish theater structurally it's a very good condition how do you perform with this excellent system for public you know for audiences across Poland Gaginica only exists because of you know the House of Culture and the kind of local provincial ones many other examples well it's a you know it's it's worthwhile you know to note in another example you know in in our academy you need to pay for 150 thousand for study at the academy and it's free of charge this one it's owing to the public funding this is free of charge it's better for people it's democracy is true democracy I think any other question I'm called Marik Kristyny I'm from Vienna from the Institute of Performing Arts I'm very happy that I can take part in this workshop I'm a little confused about what you said of course it's very important to come when you start this privileged position this is something I'm writing about right now of course you're right that I'm starting to appreciate the actors but I think that instead of showing who has worse I think that showing good practices and unification of the environment brings better in the eastern Germany just such student movements would bring the most significant effects in such places where people could meet and integrate meeting and dialogue was possible and sometimes of course these environments these companies came from a purely experimental or purely artistic on a political position while the scene does not depend on the whole time it exists and of course it's not financed but it's still producing great great work and it's promoted I'm not saying that this is the best solution but 30% of public institutions appointed to the theater could bring really good results and maybe this is the prog from which it is worth starting so with with all due respect Alan I disagree with you as someone who lives in the Polish and American reality it's unfair to compare you know different histories different contexts as a poll I I simply disagree you know I don't accept the current situation because of the you know of the free the studies of the Academy or better public funding than the in the United States we can compare we can make comparisons with the US you need to pay for education but you have greater freedom in thinking you don't have the rigid structures in universities and arts academies so it's a it's a good place and it's a good moment for us to think on how to change what we've got but well I refuse my consent I disagree with that well I don't want to to have my freedom taken from me for the sake of the funding for this good situation as you said you know something that we have benefited for a long time and if we want to keep it we need to simply be silent and comply and back to what Dorota said you can be this you know kind of positivist and your approach is positivist I think that's 17% you know the numbers and statistics but 17% of the audience versus total population is it good or bad have we succeeded or have we failed well even if these people you know come to theater perhaps they don't live with what they have seen or viewed they don't live with the staging perhaps this gives you but well mind you it's 99% of the of the of the capacity of you know the theaters of the house is really and you know the audience in theaters of different types is over 90% and then this is you know this is seeds that we count so a lot of viewers yet but what what do they retain you know after they go out from the theater so why we need a reform of the institution itself with kind of less hierarchy less structure it's not only about theaters about the education is you know kind of central decision making a big structure that you can't touch really and and even the way you prepare your MA thesis it's not about creativity and it's about you know the thesis it's about the approvals and you know for you to commence with writing so it's not a freedom of thought the hierarchy is still there and I think that's instead in theater the hierarchy is quite strong and it doesn't allow us to open up to kind of to to relax this structures perhaps it's the highest time we thought or started thinking about how to raise this level of 17% of the of the audience versus total society or you know deep and their reflection after they see a staging and let me perhaps join what Joanna has said personally I don't think that it's impossible to reach the 50% level of the population to go to theater just like not everyone plays computer games or serve operas on the TV it's impossible but perhaps there may be some things that we do in theater that discourage people or discourage part of the audience that perhaps could come to theaters to the houses that perhaps there may be some people who think there is something wrong or something is lacking in theater and what this could be and I think we should be thinking about this and just referring to the statistics and the figures well it may sound actually impressive but let me let me be incorrect and say that we need to look into what's behind these figures how many festivals are there like this one out of the 300 ones per year my experience from from the Polish contemporary stagings assessment committee I have seen a lot of stagings across Poland back then it was painful experience for me but it's the quality of production and you know how much it costs to produce these stages and I wasn't you know I wouldn't be surprised that you know people who don't go to theater give this argument the quality is the main factor for the for these people I often go to theaters with my daughter and I often happen to simply go out during a play because we simply see that you know the quality well does not provide for any education any aesthetic any theatrical in education for my daughter to become a conscious and aware viewer very quick to answer the question if everyone if everyone can go to the theater 50,000 places in every new every place occupied it is about 80 million places then ok it is not possible for the whole population to go to the theater I don't know if half of us will fit in with such a burden much just let me add you know another perspective to I'm an after myself I've worked in bit gosh theater and my perspective is that I think that 17% is quite low and I disagree that we are unable to reach the 50% it is absolutely possible to reach this level and from the perspective of non-viewers well I've been lucky really to well to to meet with a lot of people you know which in the era of the internet and you know web-based society actually are interested in you know in social encounter in in in this kind of feeling direct contact with others you know to smell and sense the presence of you know of art and you know many people told me simply you know they didn't know that yes I can be different than you know a rigid structure in a fourth wall that people are staring at but something different and if you just listen to this opinion well it is possible the question is whether we fulfill the role and what's our role what our role is today so this is my general remark so we we need to believe in the audience we need to believe in the viewer we just we just need to remodel ourselves any other comments or questions good evening and I'm a student at the TSM knowledge department and my question is about those you know increasing them the increasing participation and you know raising those figures for the audiences when I come you know to Lublin I came to Lublin with a group of students we took a cab to the taxi and the driver was complaining about the presence about this festival and I was complaining about you know money spent on on theater instead of you know of a pavement just next to his car next to his house so change a reform of theater that could you know draw people who are not interested in in viewing plays and there are different options for them available options and don't draw don't catch these people these people simply save on on on tickets and it's kind of you know we want to invite the folk class to theater whereas the folk class is not interested in going to theater so the kind of willingness is important the willingness to be part of conscious active audience just let me disagree with you that it's just you know the unwillingness of the audience mind you the asses are only located in bigger cities I'm gonna have a theater and my friends simply are in it's it's they are unable to experience theater and it is only in about school books textbooks that we are required to read in among the people of theater in in in the community because stagings and you know in plays plays perhaps this could encourage them to start discovering theater to open up themselves for new new experiences in the artistic field so but man you know name I can't hear sorry the guy needs a microphone well and I don't understand that a naked actor you know could be controversial or should be controversial on the stage or they are you know the naked one men and women you know advertising you know construction materials so I don't know why it's so important you know in theater and we simply don't pay attention to it in normal in everyday life I think it's about you know our image of theater kind of conservative image of theater we've got in our heads you know this high-level culture is something they associate theater with and you know of course there are different forms in which this controversy in manifest is manifested in the theater my question is perhaps we shouldn't be you know forcing people to view plays like these so when I when I listen to you I think that we should invest a lot of money in in theater for children then we wouldn't have any problem like the like you say we are but it's I it's not that we should you know we should you know pack folk class in you know in the buses and you know and and and get them to theaters but there are staging that are extremely cost controversial that polarize you know society those are intended for people of you know specifically a specific way of thinking and perhaps the value should be for people to be able to think about the content of the staging that it is it is swallowing so to say digestible for for for everyone at not only to those who have the you know social or the political views quite clearly established so that they can have some interaction with theater you know people from various communities various circles but it's not true that there are you know theaters who have you know different offer well that there are alternatives but still I don't think there are too many people going through these theaters but I'm specifically talking about you know about place about stagings for people with specific world views it's a negative phenomenon because you know a play like this will not trigger anything new in these people will not provide for any new context and of course it won't provide for any new context in you know in people with you know extremely different opinions perhaps one one or two questions I'm a layman in terms of organization of fiasas in Poland as institutions I watch television more often than you don't know drama plays and I'm thinking about you know this I'm thinking about the sense of you know TV drama channel one on the Polish television you know operates you know drama programs for years mostly Monday evenings and the question is is it sensible to have a program like this if we could have the soap opera for this folk class who would most probably prefer to watch soap opera in instead of the drama of the play on TV let me ask let's make sure that they would prefer mind you that they are different kinds of kinds of people they are not peasants all of all of them let's have facts to base our decisions and ways of thinking first thank you very much and I'm afraid we have to finish for the time being for the time being because I hope that we'll meet after the place in the in the in the glass house in the festival club there are many issues that we haven't found any answer to yet and as you can see there are some flyers with an outline of these topics from different perspectives either you know class-based artistic practices economic contexts also information about contemporary choreography and these can be found downstairs as well thank you very much and see you soon at the play