 Welcome everybody to another episode of the nonprofit show. We're really excited to have you here And we're even more excited to have our guest Michelle rub your back Michelle it's been too long since I know you on the nonprofit show. I know I think it was right when COVID was hitting that I I was on yeah, I mean we really Got you on early when we started I've always admired your work I've always loved the things that you've brought to Local community, but you know the national and global side of the nonprofit world So we're really excited to have you here to talk about our Return on relationship and if you joined us in the green room, we were chatting about how things are opening up and Michelle I'm gonna borrow this Calendars are now in conflict again. I'm gonna write that down because I didn't even ever say that until just now You know, it's really it's really true things are ramping up and so how we navigate our relationships even more importantly, so This is gonna be a lot of fun and we are delighted that you're with us. Thank you I can't wait to dig into this again if we haven't met. I'm Julia Patrick CEO of the American nonprofit Academy My trusted sidekick Jarrett Ransom will be back with us tomorrow I want to make sure that we thank all of our presenting sponsors without them We would not be here today with Michelle talking about this Bloomerang American nonprofit Academy your part-time controller be generous Fundraising Academy at National University Staffing boutique nonprofit thought leader and nonprofit nerd These are the folks that stand behind Jarrett and I every day and our team to get this production going It's really an honor that they support us And if you have missed any of our episodes or maybe you have a new issue that you want to explore or do some research We now have close to six hundred and fifty episodes. We have over nine hundred Videos that you can access through Roku YouTube Vimeo and Amazon Fire TV And if you'd like to consume your information via podcast We're there to cue us up where you'd like to get your podcast down those and we'll greet you wherever you may be Okay, Michelle. Rubby your partner synergy philanthropy Huh, I love those two words synergy in philanthropy put it together. What is it that you guys are doing? Well, this is a new business venture for me. I've had my own consulting practice since 2016 and I'm started working with another long-time Arizona professional Alan Knoblock and we for we were working together just at Hawk and found that our Complementary nearly 60 years of experience in Arizona philanthropy was very synergistic very complimentary and our clients were benefiting in in just massive amounts It just was really a great partnership and so we formalized it earlier this year We haven't announced it because there's no marketing for it yet, but we you know, we just when you get us When you hire as you get us, you know, we are not template-based. We don't Just use traditional practices as you know standards We really invest and look into what each client has what resources they have and what can fit them the best and customize our work with them and and really you get both of us which You know without taking up hours of the thing There's a lot of really synergistic and complementary experience. So, you know, we didn't get there alone and neither were all clients So where that's kind of our our plan, you know, I love that I know both of you and that's that's super cool. So congratulations. We're excited about it Oh my gosh, you should be in our in our community should be but let's dig into this a little bit more I'm sure that you and your teams are talking about this ROR we've been so focused on ROI and we've kind of missed out this On this concept. So let's start with ROR. Yeah, this this Julia has been one of my favorite topics for years and I have Used this concept and it is a trademark concept. I wish I had trademarked it Return on relationship. It's our honor. I think he changed it But it was trademarked by a marketing person out of Florida Ted Rubin Who I have since met which I was a little bit starstruck to be honest with you because I've been using this concept for about 15 years and he found me and we got a chance to meet and talk and That was better than any Hollywood star. I've ever talked about but anyways, you know I I have applied return his version of return on relationship Which is very social media and marketing to philanthropy as a refresher kind of perspective on donor engagement and donor relationships It's it's been my practice my experience my success That Relationships this relationship is what prompts donors to come back to your organization to give right in in It's hard with the amount of work That organizations have to not just turn in, you know transaction transaction transaction, but Our world today our technology our our social environment our our just environment has really pushed for that really transactional kind of experience and Um, that's just not doesn't work well for the long term for non-profit So let me give you the definition of what return on relationship is The value that is accrued by a person or brand due to nurturing a relationship The value both perceived and real that will accrue over time through loyalty recommendations and sharing You know, I love that last part about recommendations and sharing and and that spiderweb effect of creating champions on our behalf You know, you've got two key components value and mutual value and meaningful interaction. You know, that's what drives those those That benefit that relationship It's interesting because oddly enough We don't seem to talk about this a lot enough and it seems like It should be such a basic concept But for some reason It's not and it's like a light bulb that goes off. I wonder why that is And you know it it's people talk about it. They think they do it, you know, they yeah, we talk to our donors We're engaged. We're engaged, but it's really about to me that that conscious acknowledgment You know really consciously acknowledging your relationships and and kovat Proved the value of relationships because those that recognized Genuine committed relationships. They knew their donors their donors knew them They had people standing in line. How can we help? Right and they just because they're all there was the trust was there the prior interaction All of that that goes in any relationship Was already there the ones who had been very transactional and didn't really know their donors. Well, I didn't maybe knew a few key donors, but Didn't have automatic communication automatic regular communication and Uh, they were stuck. They really didn't know how to proceed. They didn't know who to call what to do how to talk to the kind of froze So having that just in place where it's it's ongoing genuine communication Understanding that Everybody needs to be brought to the table and you need to meet donors where they are not where you are That's the basis of a relationship, right? And quite honestly this type of work Even though everybody wants to focus on ROI um, yeah, this type of work is a much more effective and efficient use of time of resources of dollars Because it builds long-term sustainability long-term retention So let's talk about that a little bit more because You know, you talk about this we hear about it understanding the impact of donor churn first of all Define donor churn for us quickly. I think we all know what it is, but I think that We don't talk about donor churn and yeah, because it's kind of like the dirty little secret in our sector And you know, probably everybody has a little bit different definition of what they like to consider donor churn for for me It's really just turnover. It's really a poor retention um, it is You lose people. They're always the the organizations are always looking for who's my new donors Who's my new major donors? Give me new donors new donors new donors and my first question to that is wait a minute Have you looked at your database? Have you maximized the relationships with everybody in your database? right because if you haven't Then don't waste the time it costs five times more to go find a new donor than it does to keep a current one happy now You and I have been in this business a long time. I don't know any nonprofit that has five times more uh resources To throw it a problem than they right so I love the way you phrase that michelle. Yeah That's it right that that makes it very real And you know statistically our donor environment is changing I mean the giving us a report the last few years has shown while there's more money out giving The reality is there's fewer donors. So what it takes to replace that one donor Is a lot of work, you know, if you've got five ten So donors are giving maybe there's fewer donors giving more You know, you've got a five ten thousand dollar donor and you lose that one donor Right, that's a ton of work. Whereas if you lose a hundred dollar donor You know a little bit easier to maybe replace that donor so It's very short-sighted this donor turn environment is very short-sighted because they're looking at the bottom line of numbers and dollars And it's also contributing to the turnover in staff, which has been an issue way before covid for nonprofits, right? But it's interesting michelle. I was I was talking with a CEO at a social function on saturday night of a CEO of a nonprofit And we were talking about she said oh, I I see the topic on monday show. I'm really interested in hearing about that And I said, yeah, I said You know, how is your donor churn and what do you think about that and she said I think of donor churn is something that makes me my stomach churn Yeah, and she said, you know, I I have had to reframe my brain To realize that it's okay. You're not going back to the well Yeah, you're you're you're working a relationship and yeah, and I thought wow, you know, that's really true I think that's probably one of those things. It's fear-based. We think oh, we've asked our our cadre of supporters too much. That's why we need to get new donors Yeah, but you know what here's the thing a satisfied donor something you might have maxed out what they give But if they love and they feel valued and they have a good relationship with this organization There that's your pipeline. That's your best source of a pipeline Is the people who know and love you to invite their social personal professional networks in to learn about something that they find valuable That's a lot they can do a lot better job than the the best development professional on earth Yeah, a donor. So if you're maximizing your relationships, it doesn't mean maximizing their Only talking about dollars. You're talking about maximizing their relationships too, right? Yeah Get them engaged. You need board members. You need donors and and you know, the reality is is All of it is needed and all but all of it requires An investment, you know, we is fundraising. We have to earn the right to ask for a gift It doesn't just you know, it doesn't become just because you have money or you pursue money Doesn't mean you automatically should give you have to earn the right, right? I love that you said that, you know, we have a Viewer that's written in and wants to ask you this question Why do you think so many charities fail to continue relationships with former staff? Board members and even the parting even when the parting was amicable Staff may not have been donors while working there, but might become such And many board members gave but need to be reminded to continue Especially with planned gifts it kind of depth that question deptails to what you've been talking about. Well Okay, I'm gonna sound like a consultant because That's okay. We love one of the challenges for any nonprofit organization, especially these days is is having a plan Is taking the time out to put something in place That automates that type of recognition that type of stewardship that type of cultivation And again that short-sightedness of even the board leadership that only your current dollars And numbers count Right. So if you have a plan and it's hard to do during when you're dealing with day to day But it's one of the benefits of of having a consultant where they can get out of the minutiae of the operations At day to day stuff and help build a plan around what types of gaps you might have what types of opportunities you might have And I absolutely agree staff and leadership volunteers Again understanding that maximizing your relationships, but if you have a plan in place like what happens when somebody leaves What happens when a donor leave, you know all these things Can be literally just planned out and put even into a database to automate I agree. I agree and I I appreciate that question because I think it's One of those things that it is short-sighted And again, if we're chasing our tail and always trying to bring in something new that becomes super problematic and more importantly Um, it becomes expensive. I want to navigate now the conversation to donor engagement And I I can't wait to hear what you have to say. I have a sense that we all think of donor engagement in different ways Well, I probably I mean I sometimes say engagement. They're like, what do you mean? You help people get married? I'm like, no, no Not really not really but you know Here's what I kind of say You're you know, how important your donors your leadership your staff your volunteers are to you and to your organization But do they know Do they really know how important they are to you? Yeah, yeah And you know people think engagement is very social. Oh, we need to be you know chatty and Being social doesn't mean you can't be strategic Either, you know having the opportunity for conversations is very strategic is very thoughtful. It's very practice based Doesn't mean it can't be it. It doesn't mean it shouldn't be genuine um, you know, my favorite I'm a huge mckenzie scott fan and my favorite quote out of one of her writings was um, how much Or how little money changes hands doesn't make it philanthropy Intention and effort make it philanthropy And that's what engagement is intention and effort What you know, so many are focused on dollars and money. They completely overlook the people And that if you know, again, I could we could sit and talk about example example example of what an engagement means, but really going back to that intention and effort Is about is what engagement is and you know, when it comes to engagement The level of a donor support The amount that they give and the way they give is a direct reflection on your ability to listen To to their wants their needs and their suggestions and that goes back to return on relationship listening understanding the perceived in real value You know, it's it's interesting to hear you say this um because it's such a As I I want to use the word strategic But it's really more of a almost like a thoughtful methodology stepping back and saying k this is really what this means Not just what the action is um, and I'm wondering if you could briefly Talk about the communication side of this because if we're just like, oh my gosh donor engagement That means we have to have the annual gala or we have to have the luncheon or whatever um If we start communicating more and saying because of you that'll be a why method, you know, here's the stat This is what we've achieved more impact communication. What are your thoughts on that? you know I When you talk to your friends and people else, you know, that are not you say, oh, did you see this in the news or Did you you know, did you hear that about that or That's donor engagement too, you know, it doesn't require hours of a luncheon or all that other work It it just requires Knowing them knowing their interests And communicating with them, you know, you seven eight times a year really but that's not an ask every time Right. So if but if you get to know them, it's you know, it's a mindset you talked about it because I teach conscious acknowledgement And I it's a simple it's a quality over quantity shift, right? So forget how donors can give everybody. Oh, how can you give you give through this this this Learn how they want to give Mm-hmm And that's an engagement, right? That's They need to see themselves. You need to help them see themselves is key stakeholders and growing your organization Be clear about their role too, you know, you have a compelling need for them. This is not I don't want to talk about money. I don't want to talk about money. We don't want to talk about a gift We're you know, if you don't say it, they won't know No I love that. Yeah It's genuine. It's real. You know, you need to be thoughtful. You need to understand personal life cycles Not always everybody's taught donor life cycles will personal life cycles are Need to be recognized. Um, you know, when you get a new donor What do you what do you think about that donor? Is it a one-time transaction? You know, what when you acquire a new donor? What what's goes through your mind? it's kind of Again, you know, we can go through we won't go through details of exactly what that all these examples of ways because we don't have time But it's that quality is that conscious acknowledgement quality over quantity shift and again putting plans in place February is their birthday August is their anniversary, you know, you know little communications But if you know it in advance and construction plan around it, it's so efficient and effective And it really Accentuates the long-term value of a donor So I love that you've kind of brought this You've kind of helped us understand some nuance to this and how It really is a strong investment in how the return on relationship is real It's not just a feel-good thing. It's it's an actual movement within our Within the nonprofit sector, but now i'm going to ask you to kind of dig down a little bit and how do we measure this? I mean, is there something that we can say? Yeah, we're going to do this and We're going to actually track Our impact. Yeah It's it's surprising to me how many organizations don't consider retention. And again, that's a number as a personal, you know as individual evaluation goal or a Organizational evaluation goal. They they rarely there. I was in a room of about 25 people talking this And two people raised their hand when I asked them if they knew what their retention rate was And how it compared nationally and you know, it's it's not a measured It's part of like annual, uh, excuse me as personal evaluation metrics So I talk about you can't get rid of the dollars and cents. I mean that's i'm not Promoting that but just forget about how much money you need to make, you know, but you can add to add to it ways to to Allow your your staff your Development staff to pursue relations recognize relationships take A little time. They are not established in the one visit or two visits. No, so you kind of have to re-evaluate Um relationships even as a new currency, you know honor them invest in them and some of the ways that I recommend is um Reducing the portfolio numbers a bit uh because you know, there's Get development officers that have 150 250 people The reality is they can't get there and their metrics don't promote them getting there So reduce it slightly You know, it can be a constant add in take out add in take out, you know, it doesn't have to be a static but um And then put statistic or put evaluation metrics around what percentage of your portfolio did you touch base with this year? You know, and you want 80 90 percent you want 90 of your portfolio Communicated with an year because a lot of times it's easy to meet your dollar goals by going to your your well Your your key donors, right? You're 5 10 maybe 15 top. Hey goals met. I got what I need, right? And the other 100 are sitting there going do they even know me? So, you know putting per percentages of a portfolio that need to be contacted um rewarding collaborative asks talk look at Um referrals like we talked about that pipeline. How many individuals came in as a result of relationships with your donors? Yeah, those are measurable. They're not out, you know, they're not difficult to measure. Yeah I love that because we don't ask that enough No, we don't that's really smart and I would imagine an organization that starts tracking that would then understand Or not even understand, but they'd be emboldened to really navigate towards that r o r Right and they will retain staff better that way because staff need to be invested as much with Need an investment like your donors. They are technically, you know, the same as donors So when your staff are given opportunities to really do their job well and really and and and the metrics Evaluating their performance consider what it takes to really establish a relationship You know almost 200 of the cost of hiring a staff is out the door and Turn over and when you're talking major gift officers, you lose Years of relationship of knowledge of that ingrained opportunity. So it is very costly Very costly very costly. So I always say take a really good look at your budget and make sure you your dollars are allocated to building donor volunteer leadership and staff retention I love that you tagged that in because again A lot of times we look at that as an hr issue and we separate it off from that donor experience and and really adding that into the the r o r I think that's really smart michelle. Yeah, it has to be a comprehensive Yeah, um, you know, everybody everybody has to get it. It can't be just the development staff It can't be one, you know a ceo It's the board has to go with it the you know the governor all the governance All the process needs to be put in place, but This isn't a high cost, you know, you don't need to add all technology. It's just that shift in in mentality and Recognizing I train every person in an organization Every person in that organization. It has a has a philanthropic responsibility. I don't care what your job title is Right. I love that. I I think it's it's something we don't address enough and it's that from, you know, the Facilities management team all the way to the ceo and obviously onto the board We've got to have them understand that And I think that this is a concept that everybody could get behind with a little bit of group training and to really let that Those folks know That from the moment somebody engages with your organization You can be that champion, you know, or you're Emptying the trash cans or you're serving food in line, whatever Um, it has a it has a value I I have an example of a development a new development officer who built the Culture of philanthropy internally first that was his goal and ended up bringing a A maintenance maintenance person To a grant presentation I love it because that person knew exactly what it took to maintain those facilities And what the needs were and had their hands on it every day And so why does development, you know per staff person? Why should they tell the story when that person has a much Better grip on it And he took him to a grant presentation and they got it, you know, they got it was fantastic I think that is one of the most brilliant examples of this that You know, and that's a little off but it From our conversation, but it's still an example of really Giving everybody the philanthropic wand, right? Everybody And I love that you said giving everybody the philanthropic wand and and I would say michelle Rebi or you've given us on the nonprofit show the philanthropic wand today in your conversation Really cool. You know relationship is it's a it's a word that's so broad And yet, um, it really speaks to the heart of what we do. So thank you for sharing with us Michelle Rebi or partner synergy philanthropy Check out synergy philanthropy. What an exciting time for you and and and I'll I'll say and I'll I'll be grateful for my own community Because I know you're here Where I live and so I appreciate that work and stewardship that you do so beautifully But I I love your message michelle and it's uh It's a really good time for us to hear this Given that we're so inundated with all these things that we feel like we have to get done for the year end But I feel you bringing me back and saying, you know, focus on the relationship You know treadmills are for the gym. We don't need those on in the work environment So pick one or two One or two maybe three if you can key things that you want to Change and and do them well And then go to the next thing don't try and take it all on you can't one or two key changes Then next year do the next one, but julia. I will return the compliment because What you've done for the the nonprofit industry the professionals the organizations the whole sector in allowing Great speakers to come in and share their their knowledge and their expertise is Is invaluable and and I've known you for quite a while was a couple times I've been on your show and I'm just very grateful for the opportunity. I love it You know, I can talk about this stuff all day long. So when I can do it And get it recorded it's even better It is well, thank you very very much and this has been magical and I love starting my day with you I think it's really been great. I can thank you. I just think it's amazing again. I'm julia patrick my trusted sidekick and co-host jerry ranson the nonprofit nerd will be back with us tomorrow Again, we want to thank all of our presenting sponsors who make these conversations Available every day day in day out and we're coming up on year three, which is an amazing thing We want to thank and extend our gratitude to bloom a rang american nonprofit academy your part-time controller be generous fundraising academy at national university Staffing boutique nonprofit thought leader and the nonprofit nerd. Hey, michelle. Thank you so much Thank you, julia. I really appreciate it. It's been lovely and as we like to end every episode we want to remind ourselves our viewers Our guest speakers It's really an important message stay well So you can do well. Thanks so much everybody