 Okay, Dave. Let's start from the very beginning. Where did you grow up? Tell us a bit about your family You're coming out to the Russian Revolution. How was that? That was one of the interviews I read at the archives. Okay, let's have a run to run. There was a sudden, the Russian Revolution was sudden, when I came out as gay, at all this gager, but there's never an environment where there are masculine gay people. We always thought it was similar. Like football in high school, we're making fun of the real vanilla ones. That was that. Okay, and I didn't attract you guys, but I never related it to vanilla. So, you know, people in the audience, there's a minute or two in the letter with the masculine and the things. So, when it hit, I was going on the whole Baptist thing and all those other things. I was a very concerned Republican. I mean, you know, I got to read Richard Nixon as a Republican. And I'm a very concerned son. So I deal with all that. And when they're coming out on the King, all this hit, then I'm seeing all the things that the damages were being done. And the injustices of people who I'm meeting, seeing all this that was happening to them. All of a sudden, I was going to become a Democrat because I was opening myself like that. It was a great awakening that's what it was. It was a sudden, great awakening. So, tell us a little bit about your early days in Gata. Your early Gata. Okay. Well, I was living in Tura, which is about 60 miles west of Los Angeles. And when I came into LA, when I came out, I came across a copy of the advocate. In the advocate act, it was a compare and close to what the people are familiar with the Bayer reporter looks like now, where there's some color in it, two seconds to it. The advocate came out once every two weeks, and then it was rival came out at all of them. It's two weeks total east-west. But I got the advocate, and of course, this big world is opening up. I've been trying to find your opinion about it that I could. And I saw a dozen leather bars. That was interesting. So, both of them were actually hilarious. And I'm showing up there as a wingtip, black pants, nice dress shirt and all that. I went in there three or four times. I was a guy who would never let in the leather bar. And then I addressed this in a few of my editorials, too. That guy coming in to the leather bar, who's very typical tenacious little bit, that people reject, how you deal with that person can direct his life into your life. And the life of your friends. The first impression, A, you push the guy away, get out of here, we don't want you to put him in the slob here when you're in here. You know, they leave. Okay, angry. They hear the things about leather people and people. Leather people hurt people. They felt abuse and a little bit of contact. Okay, they're coming out new. They get involved with the pride of the community. Leather people put love in deeper aid in guessing from the community. It came back to you. That's one way. Even if it's just me, the first one's one way to get down to it. I'm going to give you some shares. I don't know if it's like this jumpy in tone. Because nobody did drop that hit. We can get off and start to see the guy. And then we're like, I don't want to need to get in time. Now that person's dealt with. You don't know if they're on leather general or who they're going to be. They might run clubbed, they might be next to IML. They might be completely hit. You don't know that. But give them a chance and the opportunity to share that with them. It's obvious that they don't know. You don't have to tell them they don't know. Because they're in like that. They could just come off of work. They could be just coming out. You don't know that. So to approach you, you talk about trust and honor and respect. Respect for what they're at and working with them. We all started when everybody had the story of here. And everyone had the story of different. Not just the fact of the different, but how long it took. How long were you there before it dawned on you? So there's a lot of factors to consider that. We talk about bringing in the new people and the young people. There's a lot of people coming in like that too. It's a people-initial contact. How we end this initial contact, regardless of how old or young they are. What they look like and what race they are. Give them a chance. So tell us a little bit about the leather community you knew when you came out. When we came out, okay, I've been going to the barge for about seven years. There was only two or three times when it wasn't the lair, it was just a little bit of dungeon equipment and everything. It was all the bars and all the wood. And then it only got the clue at the start of the time. Wearing jeans and at least a t-shirt. Something at least we could get you into conversation. It took seven years for somebody to come up here. Because I was the guy standing next to the wall. I was that wallflower for seven years. Somebody came up here. Most people don't have the patience. Maybe I was going to have to go in and eventually it was going to run away. But there were seven years I did that. Just wondering in there. Hopefully we get lucky and never get lucky. Eventually somebody said, well, I went to one of those guys' New Year's Eve parties. He invited me to. But there it doesn't have a guy named Chuck who invited me to do one of the clubs. And then joined a club called Samandros. And there were four clubs. Samandros was the first one that came in. That's seven clubs in LA. That's like four of them at the time. And they all were four. And I think they were maybe three months of each other. There was Samandros and I did the avatar. And the only one that was creating was Avatar. Which has been in the members of the terrific club. But that's where I started in that. But my journalism background, I ended up getting a job with Frontiers, which was an LISD paper in the mid-80s. And I built the advertising department for them. While I was doing the ad department, the publisher of the paper allowed us to use some of the equipment at Frontiers to put out this little publication. A club named Avatar put out a small publication on one of my 17-olds-and-a-half. So they're doing that by opening pages and making a little cynical. It was called, I think it was called Chain Link. And they sold that in stores. It was the idea, okay, we had dramas. Dramas were great. But this was a lot of dramas. A lot of it was fantasy. The images were fun. The hot stories. A little bit of the news is in there. And it says, you know, we have the gay community. We've got the advocate, we've got Frontiers, we've got Bayer, Portland, San Francisco. And they hadn't been out here, so I wasn't familiar with them here. But in the country, there were tons of gay publications with the news. And it says, you know, we're kind of lacking that. We're not just small, a little bit. But that's not what their purpose is. That's not their purpose. There is nothing to do with that. So I just started to come down with that. And we're going to support the community who got that started. And it started out with an emphasis on clubs. And it was about a year and a half after I had it out that made it to my first R&L. And through the contest, it's been making me proud because I've never had money to beg because it's not a money maker. I have a master at making things work for the longest time. And, you know, living in apartment rent control, doing it out of apartment, there's substitute for revenue inside there. That has to be revenue, you know. Not a lot. It doesn't have. So through the title system, I was like, okay, it's R&L. When I brought it out to judge some of the things, they're helping me out of the airfare hotel. Because I don't have the money to do that. I'd love to call them. I'd love to be in a position where they'd say, why not be there? Yeah. But so the title system has enabled me to get out, to meet other people and deal with the clubs. And I have situations that cover that. But I don't have to add a contest. I wanted to meet the other people as well. So tell us a little bit about the beginnings of the literature. What things did you cover? How did you manage to bring that paper to some sort of co-op? We covered primarily the club events. We started in the club directory. Just like 3 or 4 issues in the end. We were able to list the new clubs. And there wasn't email addresses and websites. Physical addresses and phone numbers if they continued to do a phone number out. Often it'd be like a hotline that you could call so nobody would be in there. What do you mean phone numbers? That was primarily where it went. There was a time in L.A. When I had come out, when I was 76 when I had come out, and even to the early days of the Levin Channel, there was a time before the St. Patrick's Day, all the way to the first weekend of October, there was a motorcycle run in Southern California. That's quite a bit of time. There's plenty of clubs. It's a club like, let's say, the L.A. could do anywhere on the ground. Well, and the Warriors might do it right. The Savers, people could have said, there's a lot of Savers visibility this weekend. And there'd be a show of movies tonight or tomorrow. Did you show that last night? I don't know. But that's part of a primary visibility. There's like four bike clubs left in L.A. and one that wasn't a bike club kept the ANC on. There's now a men's club. There's no worse bike than a block. When the Levin Journal came out, there was like a total of 13 bike clubs. And that was half of what had been there in five or six years before. So the weekend's got 13 clubs. And more than 13 weeks, there's lots of clubs that do their own run. But they would do joint runs to put another run on. So just about every weekend, there was an event to go to. This is something I could drive to, or I could drop to. So it was in my room. And this was the end. Meanwhile, people were fighting about the Levin Journal from these runs, taking it back home, getting their clubs sending their information to it. And it grew. It just kind of grew. Then I would get invited somewhere like Salt Lake. I got invited to do two of them. You know, they go to Salt Lake. There's a bunch of other clubs. They had a club called the Lossage Motorcycle Club. They owned their own clubhouse. Seven blocks away from Kendall Square, which is where I'm going to show you. They had a scene of long rows with like four or five long rows. And underneath that, they had like a tunnel way in the intended space. So the guys looked at this and they owned that outright. They earned it. They were paying on it. They were lay-off payments. They owned that outright. This was the most places of great community unity they had there. So again, two places like that. Also going to be a part of the Elm Fires. Oh, remember, Elm Fires was where I started the Lossage Motorcycle Club too. The social membership, we're not a full member of this group. The social membership of the Elm Fires. It's not like a backcatch club where you just don't want to join this club. At some point in my knowledge, you have to get invited into the club. So the social membership of the Elm Fires is that name. It has more or less still than what many full members of the club do. Elm Fires got a few nights for clubs within the range of the Chicago area. The full members did the voting and everything. But they were a lot of associates like volunteering and work and things like that. It's an incredible club. Well, I read that you and the late Mr. Vargas are the Luala Parsons and the head of Hopler. The leather community. Can you tell us a bit about why that's the case? Have you been talking about the view? Well, you may address it however you want to do so. We do. We do. We had each other back and forth. I had a sense of humor in one of the gentlemen. Vargas had his humor, well, one time we had this section in one of the gentlemen called Tidy Over Times. And there was a spoof on the Tidy system. We just peed up on it. And then we had, like we made a movie out of the Prisoner of Zenda. Remember the movie Prisoner of Zenda? Well, Lennie had just become a cop in San Francisco. So we made a movie poster like that. A big dad. Like a movie poster, just like that. And it was called Prisoner of Brando. So we had humor like that. It would be something called Tidy Over Times section. And it would start off, the sense would just finish. And there'd be somebody in any way doing that. They had a bunch of gossip and type stuff in there. Then the last paragraph. We just continued the page, two thousand nine hundred and twenty-one. Some people kidded Mr. Marcus in there. And I had an assistant editor working with me. I put a little bar of kiddie Marcus. Okay, well, I had an assistant editor for four to five bars in there. So it wasn't like one of the things. We were talking about twenty-one grenades out. But you're going to take it differently when it's one of the bars. It comes from the leather journal. Okay, so he used something that was all about fun. But I didn't know how much of my job as editor, so I was responsible. That's all the way to say it. Back on that part of several markers, of course, through something bad. Then we kidded. Then we got a little nasty. The initial was fame. But then we had to be harmed. And we did a lot of damage to both of us tonight. He did things wrong. People in the leather community were taking slides. Should we ask Marcus out to be a judge? I don't know what Marcus said about Dave Groves. I thought that was stupid. But there was someone else. Let's bring Dave Groves out. And we'll all know what he said about Marcus, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we, unknowingly, created slides out of this. It got to the point where people would call me up. Did you hear what Mr. Marcus said? That would be the same person. Yeah, I don't know what I'm talking about, Mr. Marcus. Did you hear what Dave Groves said about this? What's going on? Is it all printed out? Well, it's a fun little prank. It's snowballing. It was a big community fight. And it ended. Marcus had had some photo of me. He took me, I fell asleep. I was judging a metal-added leather. He took a photo of me pulling a sink. I said, 100 temperature, 103. I was on an 18-hour bike to license. Here, there was judging in Atlanta. I was in the best position. He passed us around. This is where the prank got to be over in the hostile. Well, he went on stage to introduce the top 20. He got the nastiest booing I've heard. And I did an individual in the stadium who watched 60,000 people boo a bad call. You know, by an umpire. You want a loud booing crowd, they'll send an addy when they're mad. But this is pretty nasty because the person, people knew each other. Fans in the stands boo a bad call. People they've seen and they don't know the people. People didn't leave any Marcus. And Marcus was the one who got booed. I don't know. Because if I had been on the stage, I might have gotten that too. It wasn't the point of a pledge of healing. It got to the point that Chuck Ranzo even alluded to it in his address on the stage. So we realized this had to stop. Where this leads to is the good part. Marcus and I got the things so got stuck. There were the scars. One person wanted to heal and the other person didn't want to. But the thing was healing. But the lesson the community is as nasty as it is that it was and as visible as it is, once something is visible, it's harder to back down because people see it. You don't want to come across as weak or a person who's lost something but you want to be fair. We were able for the whole community to get that thing back down. And the lesson is, we all have these feuds out there. It may not be as visible as that. But those can be healed. And these people can be friends and allies and assets. Again, you can be a friend of them and an asset to them too. It's all doable. So the tip of the bottom line the ending of that had to have the ending. How did you feel when Mr. Marcus passed away? It went up in the shop because I knew it only was for some time. We knew for about a year that he didn't say. And there's a couple of times he didn't know what was going on. I knew this is new. We know who vented in 96. So it's like 14, 15 years later. It's a long time. It's not like it was three weeks before. So we'd go a little bit on and just try to suppose a respect for each other. We knew what it was like. So he said, okay, that's fine. We're both in a competitive trend. This is a competitive field. We're in the straight world. It goes on in journalism. Be a photographer or a football team. You guys getting right out of bounds on the photographer world? Watch the end of those plays when you watch football game. You've got to keep your people's cameras and the guys and stuff. It's nasty. The stuff we have, they'll take you out because you've got 300,000 people on your job. We'll do anything to get it. But yeah, just hoping it's just one A-word or one opposite the chip. I'm trying to understand the nasty but nothing can prove it's out in the straight world out there. Not even close. So, I mean, Mark is a good respect been there. There's a friendship that started growing and now we... Mr. Mark is assuming it's not going to be replaced. So how are you going to replace Mr. Mark? Now, people from the south of Dave Road sure to be next to Mr. Mark. Is that right? No, I'm not. Mr. Mark, I can't be young. People who go... Last week at the International's letter somebody once asked how many people in the room were raised with a dish by Mr. Mark? People have a hand who are raised two hands. And it was laughing about it. People having fun with that part. Everybody, just about everybody, just anybody had some kind of a chastisement. There's a bunch of good but that's his style. And I have one style or two different styles. So I can't be young. I'm not going to try to be Mr. Mark's. I mean, you can't be young to be yourself until we know these contests. We judge people, we tell them when they're going to compete, just be yourself. I can't go out there and do that and try to be somebody else. What has been the letter journal's impact on the community or the influence over the years? I think a lot of people have gotten involved in the community because of it. The primary instance was realizing impact. Targill Letter Club in the Carolina there were guys living in a green field right before the North Carolina. They didn't go on ADC, they were going around. They didn't know that there were three other clubs in the North Carolina. They didn't even know they were there. They didn't even know. One guy went to an alarming rising or something like that. They bought a copy of the journal. Brought it back and they found it in the club. So what did those guys do? They got this. That's the guy in that club. They went to that. This club got founded because one person saw it. It was friends. They went to the club. They didn't even know what the club was until they found out. This is on their own. They picked this up out of the store and went on their own during Friends Club. How many people have heard the name of the club? The Helms. Targill Leather Club instituted a web-register and tried to beat Senator Helms. The Helms was winning like 80% of the vote when he was winning his election. In this election when they was a big Jesse campaign, the Targill Leather Club started and Jesse Helms won the election by about 5%. Not 80%. So while they didn't win, they beat it in fact. This was something one guy founded. But nothing is a great feeling when you're out of town. I was actually one of the New York men's baseball game players in New York. I kind of wanted to change things. So I got on the set of the train leading the man out to Queens and two guys were talking. They were arguing about something while I was, I didn't have a big word. They didn't have a copy of the journal. They were talking about it. This too, but that's getting up so quickly. What I need to do is leather along. I was there at a leather advantage about that you can work it up. So the impact is out there. It's kind of a neat thing when you have that happen. Well, in reverse, what's been the community's impact on leather journal? Well, like I said earlier, it was about the seven round information for clubs and news and then it would be involved in the titles. I mean, as a news reporting agent I report news. Sometimes I make news because it would be empty out of words. We have an international women's contest. So in a way I've created news that way. But something happens. We report on it. Have you ever refused to cover a story? Inside the leather community I don't think I refuse because I don't like somebody. There's some news that I just stay away from. With a great financial wealth along the journal. I asked if there were 425 lawyers. Right? Not. So there are cases, there's some legal thing going on. Somebody says something about somebody that's often in actual events. They're having an event in Chicago or in Cincinnati or Atlanta or somewhere down in Florida. So they're going to send the information. I'm wanting to get that in. I don't have any reason to not put it in. But somebody can send something about it. Somebody can accuse me of something. And I think a lot of people report a fact. You find that a lot of facts come in when you find out they're not. And you put it in there. These people. Claude A. is a man. Claude A. Since an article to the Leviton was based in the voucher form. The Claude A. is a voucher form in the individual effect or title system is vouched for. I put that in a Leviton journal. I wrote for myself on the line. Then you find out what they said is it true. And the percentage of things that you find out that people say about it is, you know, I have an authority community leaders that can't do anything. What's the biggest community scandal that the Leviton journal has covered? Well, it would stay out of the skin. You know. The other thing with Marcus, who were participants in that, that's probably the worst thing about a journalist's path. That's the part, I think. But, there's cases. So people have been accused of crimes. But people have been accused of crimes upon a community. You had some doubt in the conviction. You stay away from the legal side. One of the things about the Leviton journal is publishing a positive image of a Leviton community. So in a way, there's something called investigative journalism, which we are not, in other background, is advocacy journalism. We're more like that. This is a Leviton community. We're going to put the positive side of that out there to the best of our ability and knowledge. Well, let's talk a little bit about Pantheon of Leather and Olympus. What are those? Tell me a bit about them. Okay. The Pantheon of Leather Awards, we're going to have our 20th anniversary of that this year in Los Angeles in August. So, it started in Los Angeles. Before we did the first award show in 1991, I had been giving a similar award, just like an editor can do time axes man of the year. It was my opinion my relations. Of course, I mean the people I meet because it means everybody. So I can say somebody is man of the Leather Channel and meet five people later who weren't qualified, but I had never met them before. So the scope of Leather Channel that time was smaller now we know more of the community and we still don't know all of it. So things are going to get missed so in turning it into an award show and some people in L.A. so can have the Oscars here they have other events like that why not create an award thing for local communities who decided to do that in the first few years was in Hollywood then I met at IML R.J. Chapin during Chai Chester later came over and we first went down to the Parliament House down in Florida one year probably was a lot bigger than that bigger than that so we went to the Parliament House and went to party we did it in Houston and then after that it was in New Orleans for several years and we'd probably still be in New Orleans today but because producing it and getting corporate sponsorship but somebody doesn't pay his sponsorship he can't go back to London next year there's a limit of resources for that down there we're that's how we're running dry an opportunity to get out of there was after 9-11 we had hotels in certain 9-11 events they decided to move the Super Bowl to our weekend our hotels canceled so we both we've got a contract Von Sasuki with the response we have we're going to Chicago I'm in the area people in Chicago are quite a few I mean you guys were going to like coming out there and put this thing on but I had no research and Robin you were going to do that too it's been incredible working with that group so one of the great people and I found out that Eric Chai Chester was a bartender with Gold Coast I think he was gone by the time I came out but these are some of the several founders working with that group RJ having on back by Nell I think that's terrific because RJ is a great guy to work with and get an opportunity to work with and there's a guy that's just a genuinely nice guy who's willing to help you can make a mistake and he'll spot that rather than be the right act he'll find ways to fix it because he's something you can make to a better item it's something like you're actually doing all this stuff you're going to make mistakes it's how you handle it and that's what the people around you help you handle it's an RJ helps you handle and the one that was a contest the first three the second year we began we had Luke Bowman who was my assistant there at the time the one who took this as a bartender the extra bartender was a bartender it was about what was the Southern California master and slave contest and with our event he turned that into the international master and slave contest was this the connection with him at the time in 1996 he was I remember he did different things on the live turned the contest over to someone else and for two or three years the contest was kind of in one boat state and but it was separate from being in heaven so I came up with the idea of doing the international contest the idea being that it was over to the whole community men and women transgenders they just had to be part of the community and they didn't have a contest and we did it with a famous contest in which they were all one story and in some of the categories you got a jockstrap you got a mosaic these are what constitutes 20 points so you have some of the guys who have never had a chance in some of these contests we started that in 1996 and what the contest has done we've had men and women we've had gay men gay women we've had PNs women so it's not just women we've had two people we're transgender in contests sometimes we've actually had a babe one and some though it has some it's not as large as the others it's had to have a tend impact on those people I grabbed a title of zero yesterday right? speaking of the contests a little bit tell us what evolution has seen through the contest circuit how have things changed over the years? I think I mean I know started they didn't have a normal contest started and there's no climb going to then the National Leather Association which has made a comeback now in the planning to provide they had the Mr. National Mr. Miz National Leather Association which way was a contest it was hard everybody too so it was a process too it was in the way that it was open to everybody we're not the first one to do that but NLA had stopped me now so we had kind of picked that up not because they did it's something we decided to do anyway but just as a fact for history's sake we're not going to claim that we're the first one to do that we're constricting them now but in the growth of it now you're giving a lot of contest for being one contest or that'll be three or four times and to the contest Dunny and I represent this and we have to take a look at that what is the cause of that what do we need to change and if we need to change what changes do we need to make and there was a time a few years ago when the Olympus contest on the very shades of ground and as I was looking at this problem I said you know the Olympus you're part of this problem too there's a lot of contests my contest is part of that go out too should we bury it and I was working to decide you can just use this okay and there's no way to stop pulling back the Olympus a lot more that way internet has had some effect of course it's a conflict more than everything on the internet and yes it's part of the problem but it's not necessarily a deep problem in fact the internet is an ally of course in terms of diversity I mean so for somebody who loses somebody else is going to win and pick it up but the case is where we can also win the winners so I think we need to take a look at the systems what we're recruiting how we're recruiting contestants what we expect we need to take a look what are the goals of the time how the title goal was created is it something they would want to be why are they not why are they not running and I don't think just the plot I think a lot of the time we need to take a look how we're recruiting the title goal so they keep going I mean a lot of the time there's a lot of things we'd like to do with Olympus title holders we don't have the resource to do it so I think we're in this to now speaking of title holders a little bit what makes a successful title holder it's great being a goal achieving a goal and what the goal of IML might be what is the producer's goal and what is the title holder's goal why don't those are and what IML's goal might be might be different from international led boys goal or infants goal but are you when you set out to run a contest or competing a contest why are you competing you're the question if you become Mr. So-and-so or Ms. So-and-so what do you do in the title what is your goal well if you would command in a year and say I either miss this goal and by how much do you miss it or you reach the goal then exceed it did you reach your goal what was your producer looking for but your producer just the title is basically an advertising when they're established in a way and so are and they're out front about that this is what they're thinking as they want to guess what's their bar or club organization every time their title's out there with that name on it that guy's advertising their place in a way of the scene that way that's an expensive advertising and some of them that's the extent they're involved in they're out front about that and that's something you'll see the title says all community service all fundraising and if you're doing that for your producer for your community but these are things that run in your goals look at that in your producer's role are you achieving that? well what advice have you for people in the leather community today or a successful future in our community okay successful future future that's the attorney mode on that's what that's all about basically in order to preserve the history to preserve the culture what advice have you for people in the leather community? okay talking about history you got something you ever need to throw that out give it a second mind because that one thing that you throw away might be something something that's an important thing something else it's a copy of a leather journal it's 10,000 that's printed every month you throw a copy of that one you're probably gonna hurt anybody but some unique items the very copy of the leather journal I couldn't even have it there's so many so from that aspect of it one thing that you get more of the unique items there's only one or two of them you might have one of them that you throw it out it was a copy you know it might be a photo and I think that's a lot of things people take photos and I think we're missing today do I think it's a print photo people snap away what's up right here I got tons of photos most of these photos are going to get deleted they get saved on a file the repetitions are completed in the early days so we've got to have a way through we're using print film enough to fill the boxes call it a 40-50 we'll have that back wall back there this is a photograph I've got to say that I kept all of them the way of the back rat so everybody can't do back rats and we don't have all those kind of photos but you have an item you attended a contest you got an award or even a recognition maybe you didn't get the main award which got a nomination certificate from a local leather club my club said okay we've got some of this and here's where she seconded everything seconded everything so people might toss that well your life has gone on two years later taking it into the crack you become a layman and we two or three years lose you and some of the stuff's been thrown out you don't know what's coming down or next we're on this room today two years five years ten, twenty years certainly some of us are not going to be here but we don't know where that's going to be so having all this not only having it that's the one step and what I've realized about it is if you haven't turned that into a leather archives or on your local historical societies there's no record of that you pass on you get the car wreck both the families in there there's a jump, jump, jump, jump toss, toss, toss and then some of the stuff's invaluable you've lost control of who makes the decision on what's valuable and what's not that's probably a huge people we've lost somebody else is coming in and interpreting that and that's somebody who's in the community whether they're a mother, a master, a servant whatever or friends from a club have gotten here somebody else that does not know much about knows nothing about them far as another life or thinks leather is such a sin we do Jesus as well and throw all the stuff out of the way but the bottom line is the stuff is getting crumb they might have just great pictures from the Saders when nobody else took or they might have had some awards that they were proud of but they're nailing it it was disgusting, that's tossed in your arm so make preparations because you don't want to give away the leather archives tomorrow it's tight and wouldn't have it the order of the sash or whether you have this type of view of a value for that and while that's in your custody you have a responsibility with that well I'd like to conclude with a question that if I don't ask I'll never be forgiven tell us a bit about your fishes tell us a bit about your fishes okay my primary fish is a little like a ESM and it's a slow-loving fish when it's hot that's quite enjoyable that's a primary that's going to trigger the other good set in case the guys are taking a lot further then we're just playing some whole play but I do like a lot of the variety of ESM that I enjoy a very tactical lots of tactical play some of the there are probably more things I'm into than there are very few things I'm extremely heavy into but there's more variety I like more small spoilers there's a few things I haven't done there's some things I quite like that I can't do because of our problem we had three years ago like some of the heavier electric play that I like now I have to limit that to a long play okay well I would like to thank you very much Dave this has been a very good experience for everyone and I'd like to thank everyone who was able to attend thank you very much