 Their one point agenda is to hate muslims. Hello and welcome to this joint production of NewsClick with Leaflet. We have with us today Dr. Ravi Varma, who's been the former advocate general of the state of Karnataka. He's also currently arguing the challenge to the revocation of reservations for Muslims 4% in the state of Karnataka. As we all know this has become a very, very hotly debated political and election issue as Karnataka goes to the polls. But you're making a major point, you're saying if you come back you will bring back the 4% reservation for Muslims, but you will also give reservations for vocaligas and lingas. Lingas and other communities also. In Karnataka, the Congress government has kept 4% muslim reservation in a non-convenient way. I want to say it in a non-convenient way, that our reservation does not help the reservation based on religion. You have to protect every section of the society. How can they fight with the general category? Is it unfair? So you would give back the 4% if you come back to power to the minorities. We have to deserve bound duty to protect their interest. Dr. Ravi Varma will explain to us the relevance of this issue and his approach to the problem since he's currently arguing the case in the Supreme Court. So Dr. Varma, could you please explain to us what is the relevance of this challenge that you have brought to the revocation of reservations of 4% for Muslims in the state of Karnataka in the Supreme Court of India? At the outset, I appreciate the concern shown by leaflet and news click on this all important subject of social justice as a whole and social justice to Muslims. So far as Karnataka is concerned, we have a rich heritage of social justice. And to the viewers, I should tell you, the first census in India was in the year 1872. That is when people came to know that the dominating caste in public services, namely the Brahmins, they formed just over a 3% of the population. So 1872 was the first census. In the then princely state of Mysore, the first concept of reservation was introduced as early as in 1874. First beneficiaries were Muslims and non-Grammian Hindus. So this would be the right occasion for you to explain what is the relevance of reservations and why they are so critical to what we call social justice under the Constitution of India. Yeah, as I told you, the whole concept was to bring down the preponderance of Brahmins in public administration. We have to remember Muslims have never been provided reservation on the ground, they are religious minorities. That is something that we need to elaborate. Never, never, ever provided reservation on the ground, they are a religious minority. In 1874, they were provided reservation to bring down the preponderance of Brahmins in public administration. Chief Justice Miller committee 1919 described them as backward classes. For the first time, the phrase backward classes was used in 1919. As a backward class, they were given reservation. Then Sahu Maharaj by then had given reservation in Kolhapur, 1902. Padras gave reservation in 1921. Every time Muslims were considered as socially and educationally backward. And after the Constitution came into force, Hounur gave them the title they are socially and educationally backward. Second commission, Venkat Swami commission also described them as socially and educationally backward. Justice Chinnapurati commission also considered them as in the entire community was considered as socially and educationally backward. And as such, they have been enjoying reservation for the last over 150 years. So Dr. Verma, despite all of this, we noticed that in the public domain, those who opposed reservation for Muslims have successfully managed to propagate the narrative that these reservations are based only on the basis of religion. You have taken this case to the Supreme Court of India. If you could just explain to us your strategy in the court and what was the response of the court. See this reservation order, taking away reservation of Muslims is done one day before the elections. It is not based on any empirical data. No contemporaneous data was collected or relied upon. And it is based on a so-called interim report of the backward class commission obtained under political pressure because the Karnataka state commission for backward classes is also headed by a political man today. So he succumbed to the political pressure brought upon him and gave an interim report. Nobody had complained against Muslims. Nobody had asked for removing the quota given to Muslims. The backward class commission has not issued any notice. They are not conducted any inquiry. Therefore that issue was not before the backward class commission at all. But just like that, backward class commission gives an interim report. You transfer them to economically weaker sections. On that ground, this order is passed. Yes. But more to the point, in the Supreme Court of India, you are representing the community and their organizations. And if you could just explain to us a little bit about the argument that you will be presenting to the court as to why, in your opinion, this reservation is based on social and educational backwardness and not on religion alone. As I told you, this has never been introduced on the basis of the religion at any point of time. The one and the only ground on which they have been classified as backward classes, entitled for reservation article 15-4 and article 16-4, is on the ground, they are educationally backward, they are socially backward, they are economically poor, by and large they reside in ghettos, slums or otherwise congested areas. They carry on such occupations, which are not even entitled to be called as blue color jobs, much lower than that. And nearly 60% of them are found to be below poverty line. And the highest number of dropouts is from among the Muslims. And the number of people going to higher education after the age of 16 is also considerably low. The representation in services is abysmally low, where in Karnataka they have a population of about 13%, neither in services, nor in professions, nor in educational institutions, their representation exceeds 6%, therefore they are socially and educationally backward and they are inadequately represented in services, therefore eligible for reservation. Dr. Verma, the case is on board in the Supreme Court tomorrow and we know that you will be presenting your case over there. Are you hopeful that you will be able to persuade the court that this reservation is not based on religion alone or on religion in fact? No, one of the reasons why the interim report was given against Muslims by the Karnataka State Commission for Backward Classics is on the ground that there was no material whatsoever to indicate they are socially and educationally backward. This statement by itself is a 100% lie because as I have told you, Haunor Commission has identified them as socially and educationally backward. It was challenged on the ground that they cannot be provided reservation as a religious minority. This argument was repelled way back in the year 1979, a division bench of the Karnataka High Court in Som Shakra Paskes has expressly upheld the reservation provided to Muslims as socially and educationally backward class. That order of the High Court was challenged in the Supreme Court in Vasanth Kumar case and as you are aware Vasanth Kumar upheld the High Court statement. Yes, though they didn't put it in the judgment. All these facts are suppressed in the interim report. I think we will have to wait for the outcome of the Supreme Court judgment but how does this play out in terms of the ongoing elections in Karnataka? We heard statements by the Home Minister to the effect that if their party comes back to power they will scrap reservations for Muslims. See the present government, BJP government in Karnataka did not come to power on a popular mandate. They were not given the mandate to rule the state. However, by a backdoor through what is now known as Operation Kamal. They won over 17 MLS from other parties who resigned from those parties and they were able to follow. As you know this is going on in many states. Whenever they came to power through a backdoor they have taken Karnataka as a laboratory for experimenting hostility towards Muslims and building a narrative to polarize the people. How do you see this playing out in the 2024 election? So if they succeed in this election this is going to be their manifesto for the 2024 election. His job to remove Muslim girls from schools, to remove Qureshi from mutton shops, to bring down the influence of imams particularly in the prayer that is being held in the morning, early morning and reservation. This is a very, very serious issue, a very good thing to do because RSS is not comfortable if it is shown by Brahmin or others, they are very happy if it is shown by Muslim or others. I should also point out the repeated statement made by Mr. Amit Shah that Muslims are removed because they are a religious minority is by itself cherry picking the Muslims for a hostile discrimination. Why? Because the entire Christian community which has never been declared as a backward community by any commission finds a place in the government order enjoying reservation of 7 percent now. The entire Buddhist community, religious minority, they are in the reservation order, Jains are in the reservation order. So Christian converts to, I mean, Schedule Caste converts to Christianity, they find a special mention in the reservation order. So religious minorities are already there, Muslims alone are picked out for this hostile discrimination. Dr. Verma on a connected issue I want to ask you, I find it very ironic that the High Court in Patna has stayed the effort of the government of Bihar to collect data to determine social and economic backwardness, educational backwardness. And the reason for this is, as you know, in the Nagra judgment, we were repeatedly told that you cannot make reservations without data. So on the one hand, the Supreme Court tells us that you cannot make reservations without data. On the other hand, when there is an effort to collect data, we have a stay from the High Court. How do you see this? So far as the caste data collection is concerned, all the political parties are guilty of suppressing this information from the nation. It is the Britishers alone who collected accurate data about the population of each caste and their socio-educational and economic position, as it reflected then. So from 1872 to 1931, comprehensive data was collected and data collection improved by lips and bounds on the basis of the experience they had in the past. 1941 census was incomplete because of the Second World War. So after that, the census stopped collecting caste details. However, they have been collecting caste details in respect of all the castes, nearly 800 castes, found in the Scheduled Caste List and likewise Scheduled Tribes List in the country. Now, so far as the Patna High Court is concerned, Patna High Court has stayed the ongoing process. What is important to take note of is, this stay was given on 3rd May. The survey was conducted way back in the month of February 2023. So practically the survey is over, it is only finishing touches and as per the statement made by the advocate general to the court, 80% of the work is over and the data is already in the public domain. That is what he has said, be that as it may, now it has been stayed. Now what is the ground on which it is stayed? That is very important. Now as you are aware, in Ramurthi's case, the Honorable Supreme Court has said, you cannot interfere in the matter of collection of data or direct a census operation to be conducted as the Madras High Court had done. They said, this is a matter of policy and courts cannot enter this area of policy making and therefore the High Court should not have issued the mandamus. That is what the High Court has said. So if it is a matter of policy, how can the Patna High Court interfere with it? I do not have an answer to that question. My goodness, they have gone into the nitty gritties. Are you not violating the right to privacy? I ask this question. Are you not violating the right to privacy when you ask a person? Are you male or female? Are you not violating the right to privacy when scheduled castes are asked to which cast he belongs? Scheduled tribes are asked to which tribe he belongs? How pleased is to these facts if Patna High Court has stayed? It's a matter of policy. Yes. So what I would like to understand from you is what is the apprehension? What is the fear that like a ruling party would have if the data relating to caste became public? I now know a connected question. We know that no all India census has been conducted. So if you could let us have your views on that. I'm extremely happy you raised this all important question. Before that, I'll just complete one narrative so far as the Patna High Court judgment is concerned. Now by the 105th Amendment, the Constitution has given the express power to all the state governments and union territories to have their own lists of backward classes. And the Supreme Court has repeatedly directed right from Indrasani's case, you collect the data. And Indrasani case, they say you conduct a survey of the entire populace, collect the data, and then decide on the backwardness. So that is a condition precedent for classifying anybody as backward. So therefore, when Article 342, Capital A, class 3, expressly authorizes the state governments to have their own lists. That means they are authorized to collect these data. But let's hope at least we have a general census conducted before that. It's very obvious that we have a very long journey to travel. That was Dr. Ravi Verma, former advocate general of the state of Karnataka, telling us his views on the question of reservation for Muslims as also on the order of the High Court of Patna on the caste census, which has been stayed. We won't be able to comment anymore on this because both matters are pending in court. And we look forward to seeing what is the outcome of these two cases. Thank you.