 Joey, how long have you been a vegan, and why do you think it's the best way to live a healthy lifestyle? Thank you, I've been vegan for 10 years, and veganism as a philosophy is not actually about health. It's not a diet, it's not a weight loss program, or something we do for ourselves. It's something that we actually do for the animal victims who are subjected to horrifying treatments so humans can commodify their bodies. It's basically about living a life that avoids violating the rights of animals, whether for food, clothing, or any other purpose. But it just so happens that according to the largest body of nutrition professionals in the world, the well-planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of the life cycle, including for athletes, pregnant women, and provides health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. The point is if we can be happy and healthy without doing this to animals, doing horrifying things to animals, then why wouldn't we? Joey, it might be true that a lot of vegans do do it for animal rights reasons, but there are quite a lot of people who go vegan in order to lose weight, aren't there? The highest quality research does show that vegans tend to have a lower BMI, probably because of the water content and fiber content of plant-based foods. Studies show we have a lower mortality and lower rates of heart disease and cancer. You can't be vegan for health or weight loss. Veganism is a philosophy that seeks to exclude exploitation of animals. But yes, you can eat plant foods and it can aid in weight loss, but I think it's beside the point. I mean, the things that are happening to animals is the main point. It's a horrifying industry-leaked dairy mix. For you, it's a philosophy as much as it is. A diet. Steve, should we all quit the meat in order to shed a few of those Christmas New Year pounds? First of all, can I say, I think Joey's got a heart of gold and I think he speaks for the animals beautifully. I actually live with the vegetarian for the reasons that Joey explains. But I do like a bacon sarni, especially when I've got a hangover, like this morning. And it was literally, the butter was dripping off my bread and I put the brown sauce on as well. And we do know that meat, you know, meat is protein. It helps you feel full and all of that sort of stuff. So when it comes to veganism, my vegan friends, I have to be honest, they look very healthy. They are very healthy. I should be disagreeing with Joey here, I guess. But actually, I think what he's saying makes actually a lot of sense. And when I go to the Yorkshire Dales and I'm walking and I see those little lambs, I tell you what, that created an aversion straight away. I will not eat lamb anymore. So, Steve, are you saying, Steve, are you saying that the only reason you're not a vegan or a vegetarian is because you're a bit greedy? Oh, I'm really greedy with my meat. Well, there you go. Steve, can I, you say... I like chicken and I really like turkey and I really like bacon. I love the texture, I love the taste. Chicken makes me feel full. So if I'm wanting to kind of trim up a little bit myself, I'll just get a wedge of chicken or ham or whatever. And I pack in that protein, it's very tasty. Steve, can I ask you, Steve? Joey, that's true, isn't it? Meat provides a huge amount of protein in one go. Yeah, I'm not going to disagree that meat contains a large amount of protein and protein can satiate you and help you lose weight. But there's a lot of plant foods that contain a large amount of protein too. Higher protein plant foods like beans and legumes and TVP is a wonderful soya meat replacement that's high in fiber and low in fat. I use it all the time. Been vegan for 10 years, trained, ran 100Ks in one go. But Steve sounds like a really nice compassionate man and it's actually a breath of fresh air to hear someone speak like this about animals. I'm not used to this. I would encourage you, employ you, to look at my YouTube channel and look at my gas chamber investigation. 88% of pigs are killed using CO2 gas in this country, free range pigs as well. And they scream and suffer to death. And it's in the 90% I think, a high 95% of chickens are factory farmed in this country and they live a lives of abject suffering. And it doesn't seem consistent with the person that Steve is. Whether you like the taste or it's high in protein, the point you can make vegan food taste amazing and I just don't think it justifies what we do to animals. It's just unjustifiable. But Joey, there does seem to be a trend because there used to be a lot of popular influencers who went on the veganism, actually turning back from it because they felt that they weren't getting enough nutrients, they felt maybe they didn't have enough energy. How can you replicate what we get from meat in vegan food? That's a very good question. I think a lot of those people are just looking for attention, airheads, or didn't plan their diet correctly. I mean, you can do that with a meat-based diet. A lot of people don't plan their meat-based diet correctly. I mean, really, veganism, you can be healthy. You can also, I'm not saying that you can't be healthy and include some animal products, but I'm an animal rights activist at the end of the day. And a lot of these ex-vegans, they're looking for the limelight. They didn't care about the animals to begin with, so they didn't really try. But the British Dietetics Association, the NHS, the Academy of Nutrition Dietetics, the best available research that we have on this topic show that if you plan your diet correctly and you take a vitamin D supplement in a cloudy country, you include a vitamin B12 supplement which is very, very easy. You can live a healthy, happy life with less diseases as a vegan and not cause these horrible, horrible treatment of animals at the same time. Steve, has Joey convinced you that not to put down the bacon sandwiches this year? New Year's resolution? I've got to be honest, I'm going to speak as a fine because I'm a straight talker. And I think to a large degree, I want to say yes, he has, but I don't want to go back on it. And I live with a partner that has the same kind of morals and ethics and all that sort of stuff. The problem I have is when I try things like this veggie bacon and veggie meat, it's not quite the same. But I tell you what would work. I tell you what would work. If I was to watch some of those YouTube videos before eating that Joey suggests, I think it would create an aversion for me against eating and being a greedy chops with a bacon butty or a chicken salad or whatever. So I think he raises a very good point. I'm very pro animal, you see. And I do actually often feel guilty when I'm stuffing, I don't know, a piece of meat in my mouth. Well, there you go. Riddled with guilt, Steve, this New Year. Thank you very much for your time. Steve Miller and the animal rights activist, Joey Carvstrong. Thank you very much for that debate there. I think Steve might be convinced to put down the bacon sandwich, but would you be, would you go vegan? Not for me, I don't think, not for me. I did try it once and it lasted a few days. And that was for health because it became a bit of a fad online. So I thought I'll have a go at that, but no, it didn't turn out for me, but let me know if you're different. You know, I actually thought he was genuine, to be honest. I think he was a genuine, nice guy. Like the way that he opened that up. I encourage him to go to my YouTube channel and see what happens to pigs and chickens in this country. And I think that he would need just a small push. Like, I don't think he can be a type of guy he is. He seemed like a genuine person. See what happens to animals and then continue to eat them because that's basically the only thing stop on him. Obviously the taste and texture of turkey and bacon do not make the footage seem or feel justified, you know? So they're the type of people we need to be reaching. The ones who only need a gentle push and only need to see the blood of the animals.