 Okay, so here comes the first question from me, right? I mentioned that's the way it will go. So what's your experience about this first ever Eclipse Summit in India? You're welcome to raise your hands or you can leave it to chance to me. Okay, one. Okay, very good. That's great. In fact, that's exactly one of the objectives, right? Eclipse is not just about the IDE. And this is something we have to stress again and again. We do love the IDE. Absolutely, absolutely. That's really not just... So Mike, you want to add on that? That's a great topic to begin with in terms of what Eclipse is all about, right? I mean, I know you covered part of it in the keynote, but... Sure. What is Eclipse all about? That's a lot, that's a... Yeah, but two minutes, you have two minutes. Yeah, do you have all day? Look, the main... The role that the foundation plays is to provide a place where projects can come to build software. And what we offer is a set of resources, some infrastructure, the intellectual property management and the processes to help projects become mature so that they can be successfully adopted. The measure of success for an Eclipse project is not just writing a lot of code and writing some cool stuff. The measure of success is do people actually use it, right? So that's the kinds of things that we help with. But... And I've been doing this... So I've been the executive director for 12 years, and when I first started 12 years ago, the definition of what an Eclipse project was was really simple. I mean, the day I started, it was... An Eclipse project was an IDE plug-in. That was on May 20th. Then in June, we shipped Eclipse 3.0, and all of a sudden, RCP became a thing, the Rich Client Platform. So then it was... An Eclipse project is an Eclipse plug-in, which is written in Java and uses OSGI. And then a year or two, I think the next year, they carved out Equinox as an OSGI framework, and then an Eclipse project became written in Java, could be server-side, Java and OSGI, and anything that was Java and OSGI could be an Eclipse project. And then a couple of years came along, and then Orion came along, and after a while, we just gave up and said, if you are willing to follow our development process, be part of our community, participate with our intellectual property management processes, you can be an Eclipse project, no matter what language you're programming in or what your target area is. Then we had a completely different problem, which is when you say that, that's a very big space. And that's when we started coming up with the idea of the working groups, which was to provide a way for people who were interested in a single domain to find each other. So things like IoT and science and location tech and PolarSys, really a lot of what that is, is for both the people and the companies that are interested in a particular domain area, whether it's Internet of Things, or scientific computing, or embedded systems development, to be able to just find each other and share their common interests and put together some projects that are helping tackle a particular problem. So kind of longer than two minutes, but sort of an... That's great. I have a question for the panel. If you had a time machine, and if you could go back in time, what's the one thing that you would do differently on the Eclipse project? That's a question to all the panelists, so I would expect everyone to answer this one. So you might have thought you would get a technical answer, but mine is actually a social and cultural answer. If there's one thing I could do that go back into a time machine and change, is beat the shit out of the IBM guys back in 2004 to be more open to outside contributions back then. Because basically what happened, it was an IBM-only club for far too frickin' long until it became a crisis, and then all of a sudden it's like, oh yeah, please come and help. And so it would have been a lot better for everybody if there were five companies, major investments in the Eclipse platform in 2005, as opposed to waiting into after 2010. Would it completely change the dynamic of the project? And yeah, it would have been a big pain in the butt for at the beginning, but it would have been a much better outcome. Because he was actually there. Everybody has their own interpretation of history. I would say that the cultural problem has been solved. I mean, if you look at the pie chart of contributions now for the Eclipse platform project, it's a very diverse project. I mean, we still have a ways to go maybe with JDT itself, particularly JDT UI. But I don't, like back in 2005, it was a cultural problem, I think. Danny might disagree, but I think. Whereas now it's like if people showed up that had the right set of skills and were willing to put a bunch of time into becoming a committer on JDT UI, I think that they would be welcomed with open arms. So I think the cultural problem has been fixed. The resource problem has still got a long way to go. Yeah, but I would go back to what I'd said a moment ago. I would consider like where we are now on Eclipse platform is actually a major success story compared to where, yeah, platform UI. I think compared to where we were say five years ago, I think it's been phenomenal. Yeah, there's definitely a few other places. And by the way, this is not unique to the Eclipse project. There are lots of other projects within the Eclipse community that are star for resources and contributions. There's this myth and open source that if we create a project, they will come. And that's actually just so you know, that's a myth. I mean, if you want people to contribute to your project, you have to work hard to get people to contribute to your project, help onboard them, make sure that they know that they're welcome, make sure that the documentation is there. I mean, I bet so many times in the last 12 years I've had conversations where people say, I can create a new open source project. What's the number one thing I can do to help get contributions? And they never do what I tell them to do ever, which is you need to have a hello world example where from within five minutes from downloading your project, somebody can actually get something running. And that actually takes real work to do. But if you don't have people using your code, they're never, ever, ever going to contribute. So the pipeline for contribution starts with getting people to use your stuff. Anyways, why am I the only guy talking on this panel? Sorry, can I just ask a question? Actually, also along the lines of welcoming contributions and stuff, if I could go back in time, when we started the IoT initiative, I was actually not Eclipse at the time, not like Eclipse Foundation, I was working for a different company. And if I could go back in time, I would actually like to have been able, at the time, to welcome the competition in that what we were trying to achieve is build a community around IoT. And you don't get to pick the winner, like in terms of technology. Maybe my company at the time wanted or would have wanted some technology to become the de facto standard. But it turns out like if you really want to build a community not only of users, but also of developers, contributors, then you need to make sure that whatever is the open source community you're trying to build, not only you will try to push your project forward, but you need to welcome some project that may be a competitor. And that's why now actually at Eclipse IoT, there's like 25 different projects. And some of them, if you look closely, they're actually overlapping. And the one who's going to win or the ones who are going to win are going to be the ones who welcome the external contributions, who have the critical mass of contributors, et cetera. But you really need this diversity in order for the project to be successful. So I wish I would have realized that earlier. Okay, that's a good one. That's actually what's number one on my list. Thanks, Danny. Okay, so one thing I would, in my opinion, we could have actually played an active role, more active role in the cloud development space, right? For example, in the cloud development space, we could have played an active role in the cloud development space, right? For example, Eclipse kind of took the shape as a desktop environment, right? Not getting into the cloud development, cloud app development early on. So for example, we launched the Eclipse cloud development project as a top-level project, and there are projects part of it, right? It could have been done a few years earlier so that there is momentum. At any point there is, there is in one single environment that is winning the cloud app development space, right? There's a lot of fragmentation there. That was not the case when Eclipse came about as a Java development environment. Eclipse clearly was the winner, right? Even if there were other players involved, right? So that's a missed opportunity for us, in my opinion. Stefan? I actually want to say a little bit about the point of view versus the obstacle of people having the picture that Eclipse equals IBM, and this was an obstacle to contributions from outside. I guess it just happened that I was among the first who didn't know about this view that Eclipse equals IBM. I was just looking at the code. I was hacking. Back then I was a researcher at university. I was hacking on compilers. I saw the JDT compiler was a great compiler. I could use it for object teams, great. Oh, there was a bug. Then I filed a bug report, filed another bug report, submitted a patch, and from that point in time I felt extremely welcomed by the JDT core team because they were appreciating the effort I was putting into working with that code base. At that level I never felt that there was a real barrier against contributors joining the team and I think ever since then this cooperation has gone very well and I'm very happy that just this year somebody was following exactly my steps in JDT core and so we speak a lot about places to meet and of course the conferences are the number one place where you can connect and join a team and become a member of everything else but for me actually the number one place to become a member of this community was another place which is Baxilla and cooperation in Baxilla is something that I learned in the early days and worked well and nothing of this path of contribution I would want to change even without time machine. Other questions from the participants? Okay, then here comes the next question for you. Ready? So what is that that you would like to see different in the neglected summit if it happens? Okay, that's a good one. Yeah, we did have some representation but it could do better. Yeah, that's right. Okay. So what do you guys mean? Some kind of demonstrations, right? Okay, that's good feedback. What kind of hackathon? Do you want to write Eclipse plugins? Do you want to write Vertex verticals? Do you want to write IoT stuff? If you say we are having the Eclipse hackathon what are we hacking on? Yeah, for those who didn't hear him it was like anything that's sort of new at Eclipse that you probably wouldn't know too much about using then perhaps IoT would be one example. Like we have Eclipse forum so we will get a very late response in Eclipse forums. So is there any replacement for this Eclipse forum? We have a bug created for this also in Godzilla like we have to use some discourse or some other kind of collaborative platform. So it would be very good because lots of questions asked on forum will be answered in Stack Overflow compared to Eclipse forums. Yeah, so the forum software that we have at eclipse.org is not great. I mean it was a big step up I think from the old NNTP like the new stuff that we had years ago but a more modern system like discourse would be great. To be honest the only reason why we haven't done anything there is strictly just a lack of resources. Like if you look at what we have at eclipse.org you know we have a website that's huge it's sprawling. We have like 300 plus projects each has their own website. We have downloads. We put out a camera what is like 40 terabytes a month pumped out of that website. Well the last month notwithstanding we have pretty good uptime and we have a huge community of stakeholders that always want this, that or the other thing and we have three guys that keep it up. So it's just strictly a lack of resources. I've heard nothing with good things about discourse but so I'd love to be able to do something better it's just we just don't have the people and the time so far to do it. Wish I had a better answer. Yeah so yeah that's a good point so if you don't know about it is it madermost.eclipse.org? So how many people here know Slack? Alright so how many people here have ever heard of madermost? Okay so madermost is basically an open source equivalent to Slack and we have an instance hosted at eclipse.org and there's channels there for quite a few different projects so it's a way for you to engage with the project teams with a more modern user interface so you can definitely try that. It's not really the same as discourse but it's definitely an improvement over the forums as well. Okay so you know there are various ways of interacting with the eclipse project teams right? Buxler is definitely one of them so rather than forums you can use madermost or even Stack Overflow as well because Stack Overflow is slowly becoming the common place for people to ask questions and get responses right? Not just for eclipse and that's not many other projects as well. Right and just to add on I think we are talking about a personal experience here right? I mean the development environment should cater to your personal interests so no matter whatever you provide in there I know there are eclipse ID users where even if there is eGit I know people who actively use eGit command line right? So there are certain practices that we follow and we continue to follow that. What would happen definitely is that there will be a hybrid approach especially for those people whom I consider as advanced users because they know exactly what they are doing. For the other set of users what I would see happening is in terms of getting a way to provision their development environment pretty fast. It could be a docker image just to put it out there so that you don't deal with the complexities of developing, I mean setting up your environment you just get your environment for yourself. So that's another way to think about it and of course it could be on the cloud as well not just the docker. You do realize you just described eclipse Che right? Was that on purpose? Part of it yes Mike because it is actually the midway between from desktop to all the way to cloud right? Yeah but I mean eclipse Che is basically turning in a way into I mean your workspace is a docker image. That's right. That's sort of the way that they're going but actually so Jay my answer to your question is I think Danny's right I mean for the next five years it's going to be both but I think the long-term trend is absolutely everything's going towards the browser and if for no other reason then I mean old guys like Danny and I will retire and get out of the way and the young people all want everything in the browser so so that I mean the trend is I think the trend over time is pretty clear and that's fine. I mean I'm you know five years ago I was one of the guys that was was saying things like tools will never be in the browser they'll you know they're not it'll never be fast enough it'll never be good enough and then you know the Orion team showed me an editor that running in Chrome is faster than the eclipse editor right or at least as fast and so you know part of that is because the browsers got way faster part of that is because people started writing good code but I mean it's just I think the trend is moving in that direction of course a hundred years from now there's still going to be a bunch of people arguing whether BI is better than Emacs but everybody else will be using tools in the browser okay that's right yes I'm good okay so thanks I'm good thanks for actually that was my closing topic as well right so you heard about boomerang yeah it's just coming back to you all right because that's exactly where the community need to step in in terms of contributing and by bringing in ideas at least creating a bug item saying that I would really like to have this happen here right so by the way in the cloud space there are innovations happening right part of it is in terms of right now more about the infrastructure in not the cloud infrastructure but the framework of the cloud the cloud based environment right and a couple of years down the line I'm pretty sure there will be more ways of doing that right with a click the way browsers add extensions right that's exactly the way Orion gives you the ability to bring in new features it's essentially a browser extension and that's the way it will move towards right and it will be it should come from the community right how many of you use github here how many of you use more than one extensions to github so if you haven't looked at the github integrations and extensions you should look at those there are a variety of them and the model in which they integrate with github and the way actually let me put it this way they actually enhance your experience it's not about integrating with github it's about enhancing your overall experience that's similar to the way even Orion is doing with respect to the webite helping you install capabilities that you need in a very lightweight way but most of it I would request it should come from because it has to start with a purpose right as a user you would know exactly that this is what I would need right to make to improve my productivity so if it comes from you makes all the difference first is put in the request second is put in the code if you can which also proves the point that such additions should come from additional plugins you should not expect these things from JDT because there's a lot of groundwork to be done just in JDT and JDT is best as just handling Java as it is and everything that adds smartness and machine learning etc should be done on top and I think we do have the API that allows all this and code recommender actually proves we do that's right good point thanks Sergei I had one quick question for the audiences if people want to share what was their main takeaway from the conference what was your main takeaway from the conference anyone else I'm so happy to know I'm not disappointing oh that's true touche takeaways you want to do this everyday exposure to trends that are going on okay that's good so one of the objectives have been met you have to ask people to shut up alright I think pretty much did you guys have any other questions else we can wrap up and call it a conference sure okay the google guy is right in front of you I wanted to ask him so I don't belong to either of the companies but as a user I can tell you it's a survival of the fittest I think android studio beats what eclips had hands down as a user of your and so that's my understanding why the decision I don't know you guys might have better insights and it could be no doubt about that yeah so from my perspective it was just a really really bad decision by google not that I have an opinion but I mean like one of my major frustrations with that whole thing is if you go into bugzilla and look at the number of bug reports that were ever filed by the android development team against eclips it was I really looked around I think I found 12 and if you look at the amount of investment that they put into android studio and imagine that they had applied that to actually fixing the problems that they thought they had with eclips they could have worked with a community to solve those problems and I think the end result would have been better for google now I mean what they've basically done is handed their developer franchise to a for profit company and I just boggles my mind that somebody at google thinks that's a good idea I mean somebody somebody at google made a really dumb decision they're going to have to live with the consequences it's great to say that you know as a developer android studio was a better experience they could have made eclips that better experience but now what they've done is they've given jetbrains their developer franchise I'd like frankly that's a really dumb thing for google to do and jetbrains is coming up with their own new version of Kotlin and other things which is even more interesting in the whole equals piece just think this through google is one of the biggest brands in the world with developers and they handed the franchise to another company that's stupid it just is no they never talk to us ever that's why Danny mentioned you're asking the wrong team we read it in the newspapers just like everybody else speaking of something that's starved for resources like if you want to have eclipsed tools for android there's a project called and more at eclipse that's trying to keep those things alive and it's an entirely community led effort but so far they've been really struggling to get people to step up to help them so if you're interested in doing that any amount of energy you can provide would be deeply appreciated I think that's a good closing as well in order to make it more vibrant more lively and more bringing more innovation need participation from the community what keeps eclipse going is the community community involves each and every one of us so it's we we are all together it's not just you that's the mode we are to get into and this is the first baby step that we are taking in the eclipse community we are towards it so when you go back to your work to your office you would like you to spread the word I mean excite your organization about eclipse and also encourage more people to actually participate and contribute and for the next tradition when the call for papers come do refer good topics and submit good talks that's another way to construct and not just eclipse summit in India so eclipse conference are happening around the world as well which will be published on eclipse.org that's all from me