 All right, I'll set The chair notes the time is 6.04. I Called this meeting of the Amazonian Board of Appeals to order. My name is Steve judge and ZBA chair I want to welcome everyone to this meeting. We'll begin with a roll call of ZBA members Steve judge is present Craig Meadows Not present mr. Everill Henry here mr. Philip white I know he's here Um Miss hilda green ball, yeah Corm is present Also attending the public hearing tonight is uh, christine breast rip planning director for the town And mr. Rob. Whatchilla planner for the town And carol and murray who acts as counsel for the board For students to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021 extended by chapter 2 of the acts of 2023 this meeting will be conducted via remote means Members of the public who wish to observe the meeting may do so via zoom or by telephone No in-person attendance of members of the public will be permitted But every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time via technological means The zoning board of appeals is a quasi judicial body that operates under the authority of chapter 48 Are the general laws of the commonwealth for the purpose of promoting the health safety convenience and general welfare the inhabitants of the town of amherst In accordance with provisions of massachusetts general laws chapter 48 and article 10 Special permit granting authority of the amherst zoning bylaw This public meeting has been duly advertised and notice thereof has been posted and mailed to parties at interest All hearings and meetings are open to the public and recorded by town staff It may be viewed via the town of amherst youtube channel and its cba web webpage The procedure is as follows Petitioner presents the application to the board during the hearing after which the board will hear questions for clarity will have questions for clarification Or additional information After the board is completed as questions the board will seek public input The public speaks with the permission of the chair If a member of the public wishes to speak they should so indicate waves in the raised hand function on their screen Or by pressing star nine on their phone The chair with the assistance of the staff will call upon people wishing to speak When you are recognized provide your name and address to the board for the record All questions and comments must be addressed to the board The board will normally hold public hearings or information about the project and input from the public is gathered Followed by a public meeting for each the public meeting of the portion is when the board deliberates And is generally not an opportunity for public comment If the board feels it has enough information of time it will decide upon the application tonight Each petition heard by the board is distinct and evaluates its own merits and the board is not ruled by precedent Tonight's agenda the public hearing on zba fy 2024-03 Valley community development corporation requests for a comprehensive permit Under massachusetts general laws chapter 40b to construct 30 owner occupied affordable residential units Located on 15 in 15 duplex structures Parking areas with 58 spaces Common areas and other site improvements on a 9.047 acre site Was requested waivers from zoning bylaws general bylaws subdivision regulations sewer water connections approvals at 2040 ball lane map 5a parcel 56 Rn neighborhood residents and rld Low residential low density residential zoning districts and fc farmland conservation overlay zoning district This hearing is continued from december 21st 2023 tonight's topics include the following I've requested waivers consideration requested waivers in consideration of conditions of the pasta of the comprehensive permit In addition, I understand the applicant Has a request to review and approve For the board to review and approve site plan of building structures and impermeable surfaces In advance of the consideration Of this application by the concom commission Following the tonight's hearing On this matter is a general public comment period on matters before not before the board tonight Another business not anticipated within the last 48 hours So the first order of business is to continue consideration of zba 2024-03 Valley community development corporation requests for a comprehensive permit under massachusetts general law chapters 40b Are there any disclosures by members of the board? If not, let's go through new submissions Since our last meeting and rob. I think there are four If there's additional, please let me know One is a revised list of waiver requests dated 1 for 2024 That has shows red line changes from an earlier waiver request list that the applicant had submitted To amherst community homes memo on owner selection and local preferences dated 1 for 2024 Assessor comments the town assessor comments dated 12 27 23 In a draft decision document dated 12 27 23 Is there anything else rob? Yes, so you also have a comment that was submitted from janet mcgallon on december 21st 2023 That was submitted too close to last hearing and that's why it's being included in this meeting packet for this evening And just double-checking my email You seem to hit pretty much all the submissions Steve Yeah all right So what I'd like to do tonight in terms of process is I think the first thing we can get go through is the request of the applicant to consider For us to give a in effect a blessing or approve the site plan for the buildings The impermissible of the impermeable Land surfaces other structures So that they can then go to the concom commission to get approval That's supposed to happen. I think in a couple of weeks. So you have a meeting with the concom the reason for that is if If it's approved they can then start the They can do their work that requires some money and some testing If it's not approved, they may have to go back and do it over again When Rob Roth is up to me It seemed to me that it made sense because there hasn't been a lot of discussion about changes to the buildings the footprint To the impermeable surfaces that we have on the on the plan Um, but this is the time if there are things that we wish to change or things that we're concerned about We should bring them up But ideally what this would do is allow them to then go to the concom So that's my understanding of what your request is Miss Allen, maybe you want to be um Speak to it yourself. And then what I'd like to do is have a motion that we in principle Approve the site plan and the impermeable areas Um, I don't imagine we're going to change that But I think that would be a proper approach and gives them freedom and to move ahead and save them a little bit of money Possibility of additional expenditures. Go ahead miss gal. Al Thank you. Um, mr. Chair. I think you've um, summarized that pretty well So as you know, we're on a parallel permitting track with conservation commission One of the things that the concom is looking at is storm water Anytime we're changing any impervious Expanding footprints that's going to change the storm water calculations. And so Doing all that work again and again can get costly for nonprofit developers to continue to do revisions And so what we're asking is for the board to give some preliminary Um approvals for a couple of the site plan items that we discussed previously I think most of them were addressed in a submission that I provided to the board on December 7th, so There were some architectural plan revisions that were provided in advance of that date And we also had a response to the planning board comments which which talked about some of these things as well So I think there's like really three things That are key to us to move forward with our conservation commission permit One is the mailbox area. So there was a A discussion and a request about either consolidating that mailbox area into one gathering space or Changing it in such a way that it becomes a community gathering space since there isn't a community house as part of this development project um And so what we Excuse me. I'm recovering from co vid myself. So just to give you a heads up on that So, uh, what we decided to do and I'm happy to share my screen if that would be helpful to to show those plans If that would be helpful. Yes. Okay. Yes Um, let's see So Here can you see the shed? Yeah, okay, perfect So what we did is we're keeping the footprint essentially the same in terms of the This footprint piece, but what we're doing is we're going to be Covering the entire space. The first iteration just had This section covered and then this side was open. Now. We're covering the entire Entire space. We're adding a bench. We have more spaces for carts and we have a mailbox in one location So this is the pedestals that would go into the ground. This would be flat out with the ground But this is essentially what it would look like and the other piece to this is that we are proposing to sort of um Split flop this a little bit so that the opening to the mailbox area is closer to the pedestrian Way, so that is one. Um, one thing that we have, um We're proposing we did look at trying to do one mailbox area Um, we just don't believe that it's really feasible And the other part of it is if we placed it at one parking lot versus the other If somebody is parking at one side and then they have to walk all the way to the other side to get their mailbox Um, and to get their mail to go back to their building. It just didn't seem efficient There wasn't really a good central location for it So we're still proposing to keep to but we're expanding those two mailbox areas to at least be more of a gathering space in each of those locations Any questions regarding the mailbox? Over the mail um shut Rob So it's not really a question but more of a suggestion. Um I guess if they're, you know, it's going to stick to the two separate mailboxes. I recommend to the board that You propose a condition where they have either clearly marked signage for postal carriers or Have some sort of way of distinguishing the different units that use each mailbox Just so you can save some confusion down the road. I'm going to take note of that myself I know carolin's writing down some notes So we're going to definitely incorporate that but that's that's a recommendation. I just want to make the board. Thank you Thank you, Rob um, miss green ball The only you're you're muted I'm just My question probably doesn't make any difference. Were they on um hot surface three four so that actually those less Place or customer place for the rainbow. I don't know how to say The footprint is exactly the same so the the the The slab piece hasn't changed at all. It's just that we've covered it so that it it creates um more of a shelter For people to be able to go in and get their mail. So it's My question wasn't clear. I guess now was it on a hot surface before or was it on a grassy area raised? It was always on a on a slab concrete slab Always on the slab. Okay. So that makes no difference all right What's the next the next um has to do with um The storage area so there was a request to expand these um exterior storage areas. Is everybody seeing this on the plan? Okay Um, so this is actually doubled in size. So it was half the size and now it's double what it was before Um, so that's the second amendment and that does have some impacts to the stormwater calculations Minor as it is it is more impervious surface that we're adding to the project And so that needs us um that then we'd have to rerun the calculations for the stormwater Any questions about the storage space? Hilda, this green bomb. Do you have a question? Sorry, I turned the mute on so no, I have no question. All right Alrighty Okay, I think that makes sense. That's it does makes it a more functional space and All right, Ms. Allen. What's the third one? I think Rob has a question. Oh Rob Just clarifying questions. So does this apply to all units Jessica or is this only for a certain few? Okay Nope for all of the units. Yep. Okay. Thanks for clarifying sure um, and then the last piece was that there was a lot of discussion about um Community facilities and so what we're proposing is that this area here? Um, you know, it's going to be based on the stormwater calc for this area might get expanded a little bit bigger But instead of being labeled as a future community garden It's going to be labeled as future community facilities And this would allow um the tenants or mean the um the homeowners if they decide in the future That they want to build a fire pit if they want to build a pavilion If they want to build a community house that they have the ability to do that. So this um this Square footage of this area is important in the stormwater calculations because we need to make sure that if there's a structure That's actually built there the site can accommodate it My understanding from the civil team is that we do have some room in our stormwater calculations But we don't have a whole heck of a lot So we need to we need to um look at this in terms of square footage to make sure that it's um viable But that is our plan right now Okay The other thing that that um, we did talk about is snow storage And I know that could have an effect on the stormwater Do you have a and I know you modified your storms? Your snow storage plants Can you go through those with us? Do you have those? Um, I may need to have josh Klein if he's on the call jump on and discuss that because I don't have that information off the top of my head I can um Mr. Chair I think we talked about it during the stormwater discussion We don't think it's changed at all since that stormwater discussion But it's changed since the original changed from the original proposal correct correct. He may need to jump on and um Yeah, maybe josh could just get on and give us mr. Klein could get get on and give us a Quick rundown of that because I that also has a stormwater implications He should be He should have microphone capabilities right now Mr. Klein give us your name and address for the record josh Klein 120 washington street sale and mass You know I don't have the ability to share Share screen or video I don't know if you want me just to verbally kind of walk the board Yep, can you verbally walk walk the board through this? Yep so the we did present kind of uh, we basically took the original site plan And kind of highlighted in color some of the snow storage impacts We're talking about very minimal changes to what was originally proposed. We kind of introduced an additional area Along one of the driveways we kind of moved around a couple areas slightly at the end of the parking areas there wasn't you know Major modifications one of the nice advantages of this site is there's plenty of room for snow storage it's not like we have a situation where we have a Tight parking lot surrounded by a fence for the building right there and we have nowhere to put the snow There's a lot of room You know for us to kind of be able to safely move and navigate snow on site I remember that we pushed them off to the side and it freed up those parking spaces if i'm correct Is that there are some parking spaces that were dedicated in the winter to snow storage and those are now opened up And and are not invi it's not envisioned that those would be used for snow storage. Is that correct? There's there was some temporary parking spaces where we're going to be pushing snow behind them So what's nice about that is you know, no one would be parked in those In a long-term scenario. So those are those kind of spaces are always free essentially So, you know, or they're only supposed to be used in short term So that would be there a great place for us to be able to push snow Great. Thank you And miss allen I forgot to ask you to be to introduce yourself and give us your address for the record Oh, you have to do that with your mic on Jessica allen real estate project manager at valley community development Great and miss murray attorney murray you have your hand up Thank you. Thank you, mr. Chair. I just had one question With respect to the community Garden area being designated as a future, you know community facilities I think I heard jessica say it could even potentially be Developed for some sort of a building of some sort if the if the future homeowners decide they want to do that And that we do have some limited square footage in the stormwater calcs that we could work with I know that um when christine and and rob And I were working through You know the preliminary draft decision one of the things we were trying to think about was Anticipating a modification such as this, you know some future community building um or community playground or whatever it is they decide without burdening the homeowners with having to come back before the board to modify the comprehensive permit So I just want to flag that for the board as we start thinking about these things that you know, for example if um If there is a maximum square footage right now that we know of Um that won't affect the stormwater calculations Perhaps the board would like to incorporate that maximum square footage Into some sort of condition So that to that amount You know some kind of structure Could be constructed here without having to modify the permit just something to bear in mind. Mr. Chair You know, I think it's a really good suggestion to have as a Um option for a condition Yeah Thank you Okay, um a screen bomb Um, I would like to pose my same question again that since these yards do not have driveways Where little children can so very little children can ride their little Bites baby carriages whatever um with this calculation include a Small paved over area for for taut activities so the parents don't have to go all the way to mill river For a few minute little ride with their kids or you know that kind of thing because I don't think it's a good idea to teach a One and a half two-year-old kid that it's okay to play in the road. So Can we write this or is there enough? Impervious area left so that the homeowners can put a small Tired over area for small children and their encodes vehicles I say this because there's no drive at my kids all under I did bikes in the driveway, but you know, you don't have one there Well, we do have the pedestrian way which is um, you know 12 feet of impervious surface Wide so that is a pretty substantial almost like a driveway that's running through the middle of the of the Of the development, but that being said in the response to that we had we did say taut lot We said playground slash taut lot so we can consider that in terms of our impervious calculations um, I would turn to josh to to Verify how they um, you know, talk about how they would do that But I'm sure they could run counts on a number of different facilities that potentially could be there Yeah, well, I'm thinking I know you have the driveway with only emergency vehicles going through but it's It's still I think a wrong message teach a child, but it's okay that you can take your Your little vehicle baby carriages of the road to play so I I just want to make sure that that's covered somewhere That the words are put in whatever Condition we make so I mean the condition can be that It's up to the homeowners up to the homeowners association to decide which they want to do there's x amount of feet within which A square footage within which you can put in pervious services One of those could be a building that surface could be a taut lot that surface could be something else So right now there's it's the question is I guess right now the condition would state something to the effect that there is um Up to x amount of square footage that could be additional in pervious surface The homeowners association can choose to do what they wish wish with that It's how well That's how I see it, but you wouldn't want to say specifically there has to be a Um a taut lot of some sort well, I would like to Make a suggestion I think the best place for these little play areas are in the sitting areas on the on what I'd be called that common ground Um, you got some green areas off the road Between clumps of houses that would be the best place to put a little a little hard top area and way in back Where you now have designated for garden et cetera space. I think you know right off where you've got the sitting areas I don't have them happen for me That would be a nice place for just a small area where small children can be with their mother sitting under the trees Rather than in that big open area in the back. That's what I had in mind I'm not I'm not worried about big kids. I'm worried about the little kids because you'll have no more grass And that's an area in the fields where the animals are going through all the time leaving ticks And so I think you know the the mode area Is a dentures where families consider a better place for small kids To have a place for their baby characters And I can't remember what you call all students that kids Before the bicycles you put your feet down and you ride it around. I can't My age is showing again Too long since I've had grandchildren of that age So let's let's do this let's Mark that as something that we on that we will discuss when we discuss conditions later on You know, I think that the the key thing we're trying to do tonight is to let them to go forward to get the information they need With the certainty they need to get approval from the concom and not have to go back and do an additional test And additional money. And so let's let's save that for the conditions discussions and we can talk about it then Is that okay in the screen? Well, that's fine would be It's just a question of hard talk And so that would change Yeah, okay Um, I don't have any other questions Ms. Allen, do you have anything else you wish to present on this? No, I believe that was it. Um, I deferred to josh to Correct me if there's anything else that he needs to move forward with his civil plans I believe I believe that kind of covers everything on our end. So I appreciate the feedback All right, Ms. Greenbaum Ms. Greenbaum, do you have your hand up or is that No, I just forgot All right So what I would like to do is get a sense of the board To give you as much certainty as possible without, you know, the final approval of everything So I'd like to get a sense of the board that this is We're comfortable with the plans as submitted with the additional Um Flexibility that you have on the impermeable space impervious space and you can go forward to the concom So I'd like to I take a motion to that effect that we have a sense of the board that We accept the drawings and the site plans as provided and as discussed tonight Do I have Do I have a second? Hi, mr. Chair Is there any discussion on it's moved and seconded. Is there any discussion on that motion? If not, it's a roll call vote the chair votes. I Mr. Henry Mr. Henry I or nay I Ms. Greenbaum Hi Great, uh, mr. White I All right So vote is four to nothing a sense of the board has passed Great the next thing I'd like to do is go through the requested waivers I think these are ones that Most and what you want to look at is the Revised it looks like this. It's it's not going to show up very well revised has a red revised That you got in your your packet today It's not dated, but it has a red revised Heading on it and it shows some changes from earlier waiver requests most of these In looking through this my perception is that most of these are you know pretty required for the building for the The Comparative permit to go forward. Many of them are just saying that we're waiving other other portions of either bylaws or town Zoning bylaws or town bylaws, which is what you do in a comprehensive permit But what I want to do is just run through these without reading everyone And identify if there's any of these that you are bothered by I want to set them aside and talk with about them later But what I'd like to do is get a sense of the waivers tonight for you and for us as a board and then Set aside those that we that are controversial or you have or you oppose And we can deal with those at a later meeting the final waivers So what I'd like to do is get a sense that this is the these are the waivers that are before us and if they're Controversial waivers we want to deal with them waiver later We'll vote on the non-controversial waivers or the non the ones that for which there aren't a Disagreement we'll vote on those end block In the next meeting or meeting down the road. I think some of us haven't had a chance to Go through this much given the holiday season and everything that's been going on We understand that so I don't want to force a vote on waivers tonight and indeed We may discover the applicant may discover that they need to have another waiver in the future So this could let us go through all of these We can start with the first ones rob and just run through them quickly But that's what I would like to accomplish tonight. Is that clear mr. Henry? Is that clear? It does. I do have a question. It's it's not one of the ones that has a revision attached to it It's actually the second one under 3.28 30 To waive the requirement as no public way is being created Is there some clarification on what that means because My interpretation of a public way in the legal definition is where the public has a right of access which Um This would be some I'm a bit confused by that one. It says no public way is being created I can I can answer that and respond. Um So under the master in law, there is a definition for public way That's very specific and it means that it's a it has it's a road that needs to meet the subdivision standards Um, it is a road that is plowed by the town. Um, it is owned by the town So the pedestrian way Is is not for vehicles. It's not a public way in the in that it meets subdivision regs It doesn't meet the definition of a public way under mass general law It's designed to be for pedestrians only So the waiver is just for the pedestrian way The waiver is to is to say that we are not creating a subdivision because we are not creating a public way We're not creating a subdivision road I'm going to let the planner speak. It looks like what you're saying is we're not creating a subdivision By virtue of creating a public way. Is that right? You're all right. Who's we've got two staff both christine and rob have raised their hand rob Yeah, so every time So under the subdivision control law every time you create, um say like at least Two or more lots off a given piece of land you have to construct a road Um, a lot of the times that road is considered a privately owned road so in this situation they are claiming that They are not creating a public way that's going to be turned over to the town in the future so usually with a lot of these subdivision roads you um You you create it and then you hope one day the town takes it over in the future But they're basically saying that they're not going to create this pedestrian way to ever be taken over by the town They're going to keep it a private way in perpetuity and essentially owned managed And plowed by the homeowner's association. Does that make sense? It does Okay Ms. Bresta I don't seem to have access. Oh, there's my little raise hand button. I see it got um covered up So I just wanted to explain that um in this particular instance The farmland conservation district requires that if you do create a residential subdivision You are required to use the cluster subdivision form of development So the point that's being made by valley cdc here is that they are not creating a residential subdivision And therefore they do not need to use the cluster Subdivision form of development. They are not dividing the property into lots They are using one lot for the entire project So I think that's the point that they're trying to get across here. Thank you Thank you Thank you um Some of the other we can I don't think it's necessary to walk through each one But if people have questions, they should raise them. It's a good time to raise them Some of these deal with agricultural issues Most of which are resolved by the fact that this this farmland is the land has already been used for other purposes and If it in and of itself it wasn't um, it wasn't Viable farmland also that there's um There is a question about whether there's onsite or whether there's nearby active Farming or whether there's And 94 96 summer street just run through the change on that for us. Would you miss alan? Sure, that was a recommendation from the planning staff I was not aware that there were farming operations happening at 94 to 96 summer street And so that was flagged by planning and um, it has been amended as such With that saying that there are active farming. Okay. Yep so Whoops, rob. You can keep those up if you would I just want to give people a minute Just to run through them Do you want me to scroll down very slowly mr. Chair or do we just stay on the first page? Okay I've gone through the first page. Let's go into the second page Okay Miss murray Thank you, mr. Chair and in my apologies to rob because I wanted to just go back to the um active farming operation Because this will apply to this particular waiver as well as others So you see where the zoning bylaw says that no building containing dwelling units shall intrude Into a minimum 150 foot buffer strip separating the residential uses From the adjacent farmland and they're seeking a waiver from that Typically we would what what I would ask the zba to do or I'd ask the developer to do is Identify for us. Okay. Well, what is the closest setback? How far into that 150 foot buffer? Will this development intrude so that the zba isn't simply just granting The waiver on or at least I assume we're not simply going to grant the waiver, but rather we would grant the waiver subject to the plan shown Or subject to an understanding that the closest building shall be located for example 75 feet From the active farming operations just so that I'm thinking of your building inspector You know building permits are suddenly being applied for Saying g you know is how close can this building go? um intruding into that farmland buffer and there are other waivers as we start to get into more dimensional requirements that Again, it'd be my preference that we specify Exactly how many feet If if we are seeking a waiver from some sort of dimensional requirement that we do specify What it is the board is waiving? um Obviously, it's uh the board's decision and and I'll defer to however the board wants to structure this Would it I mean that's one So it's a question for this and for other waivers What would be the downside of saying as Reflected on the the plans approved by the by the zb the comprehensive site plans approved in the comprehensive permit by the zba as opposed to having individual Limits of set out and feet The the only difference I suppose would be um If something is not clearly marked on the plan for example So I realize we have a scale and we certainly do you know right now we just have sort of like you know preliminary drawings and ultimately they're going to have to get more detailed for purposes of the You know for purposes of seeking a building permit But it could very well be that you look at these concept drawings now and you say well I know it's 150 foot buffer from an active farming location Um looks to me like they're 75 feet away. That's still a pretty good buffer But suppose an actuality by the time it gets to final construction documents Suppose and I'm going to just use a gross exaggeration here. Suppose it's now the structure is 10 feet away From active farming How would that discrepancy be resolved it would have to come back to the zoning board of appeals to see whether or not You know when we grant a waiver are we granting a waiver completely from the 150 feet? Or does the board only feel comfortable granting a waiver? From the 150 feet provided no dwelling is any closer than 25 feet to the active farming operations something like that for example um I see it actually come up more often in things like when there's a request for a waiver from like a roadway length And we might have a subdivision requirement that says, you know a roadway Uh can be no long, you know a real way to ending in a cul-de-sac for example can be no longer than a thousand feet And we just waive it. Well, how long can the road be? 2,000 feet 3,000 feet, you know, we haven't quite specified. So that's the only particular downside, Mr. Chair is I think that if the building commissioner can't interpret it It winds up back before this board But lord knows we don't want to have it back before the board if we don't need So here's what I would suggest. Um Why don't For the next meeting, why don't you and the staff get together and identify the areas where you'd have Cut, you know split the difference between what's the existing with the what the um site plan shows and What the limit is supposed to be, you know If it's supposed to be 150 and they're at right about 150 Give them to 75 or whatever the whatever number you wish but kind of split the difference So there's a little bit of flexibility in case that there has to be a change But but I don't know how I mean and then come up with that and propose it to the board I think that would make some sense. Um, I don't want to create a whole lot of work on that You know, it could be an awful lot of work, but It would make sense to me to do it that way. Otherwise Um, it just you got to approve the plans and it could vary. So that seems to me Is that something that that can be done? Ms. Brestra? I think we could do that we could look at exactly where the farming is and um Make a recommendation about that. Mm-hmm Yeah, let's Let's try that and see if that makes sense And then just to make this point Um, once the buildings are built If someone decides to farm closer than whatever the limit is That's on them. That's uh, what do you call it coming to the nuisance or something for the nuisance? Yes That's a new phrase to me All right, Mr. Chair Yes Ms. Greenbaum I yeah, press hands with one of my questions. What if somebody builds a farm closer? then um Then it is now that was and chris handle that one Um, I'm wondering this is the first time I've seen this with the red lines all over so Can you have Rob show us where on summer street that farm is On the town map. I actually have it pulled up on gis. Would you like me to share my screen? Yes, please I don't know what all the why the blue lines popped up. I still have a hard time navigating your gis system Um, but this is our property here and this is back here. I personally in the number of times I've been to that site I haven't seen any active farming happening there. Um, there is an old um Like a farming shed that's in the back But um, I'm not sure what they're what I think there used to be goats there is my understanding and I don't see any more goats there Yeah, um, okay. I just I I don't you know having driven by the 50 years now. I Don't remember seeing any farming on summer street. So that's why Yeah, there is a little shed in the way back there. I think there were it was goats at one point But I'm sure others in town have more knowledge than I Okay, thank you So I had a question about um, could you bring the map back? Sure, Salon. Yeah There were two properties on What is that mill street? Um, and I think the one that's 5b 160 might have farming on it And so we should probably go out and look at those properties And see what's if there's any farming going on there So Rob Wachilla and I should take a field trip out there to check that and then we'll be able to talk about this more Clearly next time we meet Okay Feel free to park on our property if you need to Thank you Okay Thanks for the catch Um, Ms. Murray, we appreciate that um Let's move to the second page So the first one is just says is granting a waiver from the need to get a special permit because you got a comprehensive permit the next one three two one two Waves that need for site plan review because you have a comprehensive permit Three two one two affordable duplex this leak lists, you know that It says that the current says that they don't have to be owner occupied We want to waive that because every one of these is going to be owner occupied in the essence is what we're talking about in that waiver 4.11 Is this similar to what we were discussed before? Public or private statutory ways the streets are defined by Hammond's board If I may it is um that there are no lots here that are being created. So it's all one It's all one lot and that one light has frontage on pulpit Hill road and montague road Got it The next one deals with the amount of cut and fill, which has been laid out in the comprehensive permit um And and I and I guess you just Is it clear that you're going to be Doing more than what's permitted or is it just that um Why do we need this one? I guess miss allen Part of it is that this is a conservative approach for waivers to make sure that I don't miss anything to be honest. So So if there's things that at the end of the day, we don't need, um That's fine this um This original waiver list was drafted with the project eligibility letter before we were final with design plans So, um, we can take a look again at that cut and fill and I can confer with the civil team And see whether that's a waiver that we need Okay, but we we've reviewed we've gotten your subsequent plans on cut and fill We've explored them on the already one of the meetings. We didn't find a problem with it I just want to know why we I mean, I don't believe so I think that we were within the thresholds, but I see the planners have their hands up and so they have more information than I do all right Mr. Wachilla Yeah, so I guess one thing to consider is that there was a problem raised before the project was submitted regarding a high water table on the site So you might want to account for the fact that they could exceed 5 000 square feet of fill Because they have to get above a certain number of feet of that high water table I think last time I heard Jessica. I don't know if this is correct. I don't know if it's three feet of fill You're gonna put in a lot of areas or something like that um I I don't really call off the top of my head This is why we have a civil team and we can bring josh back on if needed, but um I and I can certainly pull up the cut and fill plan and look at those numbers. Um Well, that's not that's not necessary I'm just saying like I'm trying to prove the point that it's probably important to keep that waiver in there In case they have to exceed that threshold Um, is the point I was trying to make. Thank you. Okay Miss Bresla So I wanted to go back to the one that has to do with 4.11 and ask miss murphy miss murray um about the a and r lot that's going to be carved off And should we mention that where we say, you know to weigh the requirement as no public private or building lots are being proposed Should we acknowledge that there is going to be um An a and r lot. It's not a building lot in the sense that it already has a building on it, but Maybe there should be some wording in there to acknowledge that lot Will be part of the comprehensive permit And I'm not exactly sure I don't have a fully formed thought about that but I think we should look at that and Figure out some wording that allows that a and r lot to be created And thank you christine because when I Read this waiver list and read this provision. I actually thought this was Put in there for the a and r lot. I wasn't thinking of the you know the the balance of the development But to answer your question. Yes, I think we can add some language here to also recognize um That this will be for that existing single family lot off of ball lane With things um, which is is going to be carved off as a result of this so I think we can we could do that separately Okay, thank you. Thank you good um 6.24 Yeah, you know you need you have a higher fence In the the forefoot fence along the lot lines and that's requested by the it's really there for the neighbor preference um 6.26 Again, you don't this requires you get a building permit, but you're getting a comprehensive firm and so you don't need You're getting a waiver from this um These next two are new. Can you just run through those quickly for us? Miss Allen Sure, this was due to my admission the original submission of the a and r This is that this deal with the a and r lots, right? This has to do with the a and r lot in planning department advised that it would be considered as a flag lot um and to request waivers through the section of the zoning which discusses flag lots, so um The first one is to the the language is to um Is if a lot is included within a definitive subdivision plan, we don't have a definitive subdivision plan, so i'm acknowledging that um And the second one is if it's not part of an approved definitive subdivision plan May be allowed by a special permit Again, acknowledging that a special permit wouldn't be needed because we have the comprehensive permit um And then the third one um Is with the dimensions and so we are in the process of getting an a and r plan um I understand the surveyors were out there this week um, so we should have that in hand and that that's to address uh attorney murray's um comment earlier about having um A graphic showing that um, so we will have an a r plan. It's just in the works Um, so this is granting a waiver from the dimensional requirements For a flag lot in the farming district the farming conservation district uh We meet the frontage requirements, but not the required lot area or building circle area so the the a and r plan will show that And um, and that is what that waiver is for great The next to deal with exemptions from um Building coverage and lot coverage So they're just how much of the Building coverage are you Are you proposing to have it's more than 10% can Jim, what's that number just so we know how much we're exceeding again? I'd I'd need to rely on my design team to pull the numbers off the plans directly so I can certainly do that Okay, just I I think it's for my information only, you know, I think it has to be it needs to be waved Otherwise, you can't do the development so um Parking spaces This next three are all for parking. You need to have a we're granting you a waiver. You're asking for a waiver from requirements for parking spaces Having landscaped open spaces and raised curbs Um, it's just not in your plan. Um, I don't have a problem with that. I don't know if anybody else does 7.70 is access requirements and driveways and flaglots Um, since you don't really have a driveway, you're asking for a waiver from that. Is that correct? Correct. Yeah Uh, we're normally required to have a turnaround You don't have a turnaround But you have the you've accommodated a fire truck all the way through in emergency vehicles all the way through So the pedestrian way So that you're you're getting at us looking for a waiver from that street addresses They're not going to be street addresses are going to be Um unit numbers and you're at in effect. You're asking for a waiver to accommodate that You're saying that you don't want to be required to have a bicycle rack And you want to that can be left up to the homeowners association in the future if they want to build bicycle racks Is that correct? So you want a waiver from that requirement? You want to waive the requirement for a comprehensive special permit under 10.3? Because you have I mean for a special permit because you have a comprehensive permit That's Yeah, right site plan review your waiving requirements for a site plan review because we have comprehensive permit May I ask a question? Yes. Yes. Go ahead mr. Handler On the on the bike rack provision. Yep. Let's tell him that The developers are asking for a waiver. Is there something? Will this be something in the permit that allows the homeowners to put one in without the need to come back here? um Well, we could certainly it could certainly be located where the community facilities area is located um If that was the desire of the community to put in a bike rack at that location Our thought was that these home that homeowners would generally if they have bikes are probably going to be storing them in their houses It's not like it's a rental property where there's no place to sort of bring it into your apartment You have your home and so that was our thought That's okay. We could condition this mr. Henry. We could have a condition that said that um additional additional bike racks Is an insubstantial change? And um, it would it could be approved by the building commissioner wouldn't have to come back to us I think that will make sense. Okay Rob can we Let's create a condition that does that Yeah, we'll take note of that um Yeah, so I wanted to ask about uh section eight the zoning by-law which deals with our it's basically our signed by-law So I know I kind of brought up earlier that the applicant should have signage on the property directing, um, I guess The mail truck to each mailbox to pay on like who's getting what or what the unit number is going to be So I don't know if You know, there are plans to put additional signage anywhere else on the property But and chris, please correct me if i'm wrong on this Um, because you know the zoning by-law better than I do But um wouldn't it make sense and this is me kind of asking the applicant if You know you request a waiver from section eight of the zoning by-law in terms of placement of signs and the types of signs You're allowed to have uh chris If you want to, you know, correct me on that, please jump in Mr. Judge, yes Um, I think it's definitely worth saying something about section eight article eight of the zoning by-law with regard to signs and granting a waiver from the particular detailed requirements of section eight may make a lot of sense On the other hand, I think that the board will probably want to see the sign plan Once it's developed and some of those signs will have to do with Parking and some of the signs will have to do with perhaps a sign at each entryway Saying amherst community homes Whatever you want to say so, um having a condition that Having a condition that requires a sign plan to come back to the board But also granting a waiver from the minutiae of article eight would probably make sense And that sign plan could be done at a public meeting, correct? That's right. Yeah, that approval would be Wouldn't require it here at public hearing Okay good So just for my clarification, um to the planners you're suggesting an entire A waiver from the entire signs article or their specific provisions We don't know what you're proposing. So it's hard to We're not proposing any any major signage at all at this point Are you proposing a sign at the entry drives that say amherst community homes or anything? No, we are not. It helps. So you're just proposing um parking signs? Yep, and I believe if we go back to the site plans, I believe there were some signage already in there Will there be signage for for example, there's a section There's half the units on one side and half on the other. There's no signage to indicate the unit numbers Um, we haven't considered that but we could certainly consider that that seems like a smart plan You know to at least have signage that say unit numbers Whatever through whatever on the side and then the other side is the other one through 15 and 15 through 30. Yep I think that would make sense. It would make sense both for visitors as well as for deliveries and mail Yep, absolutely. And it makes sense if you're going to have two separate mailboxes. Yep All right Go ahead mr. Henry Rob has his hand up. Okay, mr. Rob I've been talking a lot this meeting um, so uh I guess the one thing I want to ask the board is that For this condition pertaining to the public meeting requirement for any additional signage I mean should we since valley doesn't really have a sign plan at all for us right now Do you think we should just make the condition that um Maybe they come back at a public meeting with proposed sign layout and the board can approve it at the public meeting um And just kind of go from there and also kind of incorporate the signage as well for for the mailmen So they know which mailbox to go to or do you think that's not necessary? You know, I think the if my opinion would be the best would be to come up with a sign plan in the next month And then present it to us and we can approve it if that's not possible Then condition that says You didn't get it. You didn't have it done by the time of the comprehensive permit We don't was voted on we don't want to delay the comprehensive permit just on Based on signs so come back to us with the sign plan and at a public meeting and we can approve it So but the best way to come up with something in the next month that would That would work. Mr. Chair. Could you um, could you clarify what you mean by sign plan, please for the applicant's sake? Plans that A rendering of I think a sign at both entrances so which units are there and sign saying something to the effect that parking is for residents only or something like and visitors whatever the Whatever they're going to use for a A parking management plan or if they're envisioned. That's what I kind of think In terms of I don't think we I we do require that they have Unit numbers on the units that's going to be required by the by the fire department needs that But I don't don't know if we need much more than Units one through 15 and 16 through 30 on the two entryways Well, the applicant could also if they were good with photoshop or Copying pasting on images that could be considered a sign rendering as well, right? I mean do they have to be professionally done? Okay, that makes sense. No, no, no it can I don't think that's it's so important just the fact that I think it should be there and make sure that it's that it's um, you know Attractive and Photoshop could work Just to clarify also the site plans do have some signage already in them for parking so the handicap parking There's a signpost detail for the stop sign for the do not enter sign in for the authorized vehicles only for the pedestrian way So and those are already marked on the site plan So that you the locations and the details for those are already in the original submission So all I think we're really talking about is one through 15 and 16 through 30 Sure. Okay. Somebody else has a miss pressure I think it would still be worthwhile to grant a waiver from the requirements of article eight Just in case you get hung up on the number of signs or the square footage of signs or whatever kind of Details are in that article. There are requirements for no more than x square feet of sign Allowed per lot in a residential district and you don't want to get hung up on no more than 12 square feet or whatever it is so I think giving the zba the opportunity to review a sign plan and then approve the sign plan makes complete sense But you don't want them to have to adhere to the You know the details of article eight and so granting a waiver from that in my mind makes sense Okay, good. All right So we're let's see. Where are we now? We've gone through Escavations on the public way You need a waiver because you're going to be creating a drive. I mean Passage way into the or road into the development. Correct. Is that with the waivers 3.30 are about Yes, so mr. Chair, um, this section right here that you just read off is from the amherst general bylaws And this one I believe is for a curb cut So I think the applicant is getting a waiver from a hearing to the requirements of obtaining a permit and approval from the town to do so And I believe that's the next permit. Yep, because they got a comp permit. I think the next two or three pertain to that as well But same thing with the fire department We have that with the sidewalks And we have trees on the site. We've talked about that. Oh, miss green bomb He'll do your muted I want to get back to the other page where it talks about bike rocks Okay Oh, okay, um I'm concerned about If you have a Subdivision here or group houses family housing is certainly going to be kids With bicycles in excess of the owners bicycles to come and visit a lot. I think this should be a place to put them And they shouldn't you know have to just leave the bikes on the lawn might be bad, you know snowy weather or whatever and And kids obviously have friends that are gonna come on some kind of a vehicle and We should know about that And provide a place for them if we won't don't want them strewn around on the grass The 30 families is gonna be kids And hopefully Because you've been talking at least At least 60 or more kids If they have to have a kid or there for somebody and I've read them Or even adults come on bicycles or maybe more and more so in the future Mr. I think you don't have to talk to the side now, but I think we should come back to that It's not an expensive Thing that's why I'm making a point about it. It was very useful keep the place looking neat and Cut down on You know ruining grass And you know, you're trying a couple hundred bucks of fat Mr. Wachilla, let's come back to it my way Mr. Wachilla, I just want to clarify that um What miss green bomb is bringing up could definitely be discussed in the conditions portion Um, because I think she's trying to talk about publicly shared bicycle wrecks At each entry point of the the common drive, but yeah, we can move on and come back to that later Put that in conditions. Yep So that means you would waive it and then then require it Is that what you're saying it could be So you could waive The strict application of section 7.8 But the board and correct me if I'm if I'm correct on this carolin But the board could condition that they have bike racks placed At reasonable spots on the property Is that or is the board allowed to do that? The board is yes, rob, because you know, what you were saying before The waiver would be the waiver from the literal application and interpretation of section 7.8 And if the board then decides that we want to sprinkle smaller bike racks, let's say throughout the development and Where we only want to have one where maybe two would have been required Um, it would be within conditions to do that Okay, thank you Mr. Henry Is there a list of conditions similar to this list that we're considering? I did not see that Those there are a list of conditions that were um in the meeting packet And that was it's called a decision document um And it's was prepared So ever they're actually um They were in the digital meeting packet uploaded a few days ago. So it's possible. You may not have checked it recently and And that's one of the reasons I I don't really want to spend a whole lot of time going over all the conditions tonight because nobody's had a chance to really review them But that's fine. That was not the intent just wanted to make sure that there was somewhere I could read them Yeah, and Ms. Murray put together that first draft those conditions and I found it Okay And if I could just add mr. Chair, it was a very preliminary first draft. I'm fully expect Especially after tonight's discussion, uh, we fully believe me. I expect I'm going to be revising this over the weekend No, that's First takes that's and it was a good first take. So thank you I am Mr. Greenbone. Yes. Ms. Allen. No, no Go ahead. Ms. Allen. Um, I just wanted to ask a question to attorney Murray because um, the planning staff were gracious enough to provide us with a copy for us to have a preliminary review And um, our attorney and I we've gone through it and we definitely have some questions Would it be helpful for us for you to see those when when in terms of your revisions? Um, as soon as you want to share them would be great Because it may very well be that I completely agree with you and and maybe we work through it very easily Sure And we can just narrow it down to maybe whatever we really need to discuss further Okay, thank you Okay All right, uh, let's move on so We are at sidewalks trees on the site Um, because you have you have a plan Other restrictions on the trees on the site. Um, it should really be governed by the comprehensive plan comprehensive permit. I mean Um, let's see. We are at Subdivision section 6.l To and programs There's a no public way so you need to have you know You want exemption from a public way requirements? landscaping guidelines um Has the tree warden looked at has the tree warden looked at your plan? You know I'm not sure if he's in the main distribution list that the town sends to all of the um It looks like the answer is yes from planning department. Yep. So um, and we've seen the plant the landscaping plant Yep, so the tree warden didn't flag any concerns from his end. He did get a copy of the transmittal In lat and then last are the there's two on sewer and water connections um You're asking for a waiver requiring approval from the departments That's because you'll get it through the comprehensive permit again And lastly development. I don't know what development per plans are. What does that mean even? What is the word per mean? Does that mean development as by the plans or is per term of art? Um Can't remember This is a general waiver of of everything Mr. Chair, that's how I read this But yeah, I I just wonder I think we might need to look at that Yeah, I think um part of it is I used the east gable waivers as a guideline to make sure that I was capturing all of the general And that may have been something that I pulled from east gables um This is one I think will that I would ask miss murray and the planning staff to take a look at when I went through this I was confused and I thought it might be really broad broader than you need. Sure. Yeah, okay So that's one that I would that's one that I would flag Can we just run through the the waivers that? We want to kind of look at go ahead rob. Do you have a list of the First I have a question and I ask if you have a list It's okay. Um, so I kind of want to clarify The subdivision ones real quick if that's okay. Yeah So basically there are standards for subdivisions where the sidewalks and the roadway have to be a certain length and then you have to abide by Certain standards set forth in the subdivision control law um The applicants effectively asking to get a waiver from all of those So they're now limited to certain curb cut lengths certain sidewalk lengths or widths and roadway widths So that's kind of the main thing for these three waivers right here. Thank you. I just wanted to put that out to the board So what I I think would be helpful rob. You've probably already done this but There are I think there are a few that need to be revised and come back to us Um, maybe Miss Murray has also done that. I think the anr one I think the um, you're just going to get us a numbers on block coverage and building coverage just so we have it Before us, but I don't see the change to that um Then this last one we have to all we're also looking at We had one about the buffer zone of against harm Good catch So those are the three that you pointed out. Mr. Chair, you have the anr waiver That needs to be included You have the last waiver mentioned here. That's a little bit vague and confusing and then you have The buffer zone for the farmland that's nearby am I missing anything or are those the only three that we discussed? Are we Are we The bike wreck bike wreck bike wreck So we have to add Also, I think we talked about adding a waiver from article eight as well Of of the signed bylaw You know, you guys good with the anr For that that one lot You don't need anything more on that some new language that miss mary is going to come up with for that waiver. Yep We got that as well. Okay. So mr. Sheriff Sorry good Whatever language I had given you enough to come back to So, um, mr. Chair In terms of the bike rack waiver Um, I guess more clarification on what we're looking for from the applicant. Are we Are we expecting them just to modify the language of that particular waiver? Or What exactly was the And chris you can back me up if i'm missing it. Like what was the intention of bring that up? Just now You wanted a waiver from the exact requirements in section seven But then you wanted the ability to add a condition later on that may require by grex to go in certain locations But you haven't gotten to that point yet. Yes, that would be in the condition So you would so just to clarify you wouldn't have to change that waiver at all You could just leave that waiver the same And then just yeah, okay Waiver yes, so that that waiver basically exempts the requirements of 7.8 for for this project But the board does have the ability to condition later on So I guess what I'm trying to say is the applicant does not have to change that waiver. They can leave that one the same That's a condition issue. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Just wanted to clarify that. Yep all right Anything else from the members or staff? Or applicant Miss green bomb Yeah, this time I had it off um, did you I In that latest conversation, I didn't understand or hear whether you said anything about um making a provision for a top thought that might not be on that space Where the community guidance was cited We were gonna come back and talk about that well The issue for the I want chris and rob to correct me if i'm wrong Seems the issue for the taut lot and that community space for anything in that community space including a building or a taut lot Is the extent to which it increases the impervious structures the impervious coverage and and that's That is the issue that's been raised by the applicant. They need to have They want to have a little bit of uh, they have to identify how much square footage They have that's available. They can cover and not Violate the stormwater plans. That's the issue The second issue is What is put out there and should it be decided in the In the comprehensive permit as to what is out there or should it be left up to the The homeowners association to decide they want to put in a building A community center or they want to put in a taut lot or they want to do something I think those are the two issues and I don't think in either case that has to be part of the waiver discussion It seems to me that that's probably should be part of the conditions discussions And we can discuss. I think that's and chris or rob. Is that your understanding of the issue? Yep Just one one follow up to that I don't think holding on any location. We're just Voting on a square footage Doesn't matter where they can divide that space up if they want so it has to be within that geographical area They outline their plans So basically You're allowing for them to build any reasonable structure inside that circle without having to come back to revise the comp permit So in other words The little common areas where I was talking about where there was like a small park Um They they could or they could not Um A small square footage of how to have surface In those other commonly shared areas that aren't that circular area north of developments They would have to come back Because they would deviate from the original site plan. Are you talking about the pockets? That on each of the units Yeah So the very small children don't have to be taught. It's okay to ride in the road So you're talking about the commonly shared green space areas that aren't Owned or segmented for each unit. Is that correct? Yeah. Yeah, but on way back in the field Yeah I'm for very small children You're talking about the areas that are off the pedestrian walkway Common areas that run through the center of the development Um, it may just be a little area off, you know Like a little driveway area right off the roads. It's the four pathway. Whatever it calls. It's there All right, I'm just wondering if So so right now talking about common area impacts Are or can that square footage be applied to a place like the common the pathway area rather than The area way and back which could be used by bigger people Than little other people I expect there's gonna be a lot of kids there Okay, so what you're talking about is if we have x amount of square footage that can be That's excess impervious surfaces Yeah Right Can it be placed anywhere or can it be placed just where the in the circle behind north of the buildings? That's I think that's your question Yeah, because they may want to put something by the middle box But the question for me is does that affect the stormwater plan that that the applicant has to get and the and concom so is it does it make a difference as to how many square feet And where that square feet is is located or can it be any place and I don't have an answer to that in terms of That's sort of what I'm Miss Allen, can you answer that question for us or? Um when we discussed it as a design team It was our intent to have it be in that one location and to really preserve those common lawn areas as real pockets Open space and gathering spaces. We feel like it really breaks up those little mini neighborhoods And so our vision really was to identify one location Which could be used for any number of different activities as the residents As the residents desire I would have to consult with the civil team to see whether changing locations impacts the stormwater I mean you are calculating flows to a certain location that are gathering in a certain way So it may have some impact. That's why I think consolidating everything into one location really sort of helps Make it a more efficient stormwater plan rather than having these little pockets and again as a design team We really felt like preserving those pockets and preserving that opensway space was important to the how of the design So the answer then is for next for our next meeting. Miss Allen, can you Get from your uh civil guys The effect of having movable square footage Around or I don't mean as opposed to having it located just in that one area If that affects the the stormwater calculations, right, that's the question that we have from the board member Yeah, I can I can ask our civil our team. Yep Mr. Wachilla So I guess to touch based on what miss green bomb was talking about as well. I think You know, we're proposing a condition to where you can't exceed An additional number of square footage for public or a shared facility So she's saying say if you're if you cap it at 50 000 square feet Again, I'm just guessing I'm making up numbers. Um, you build something that's 40 000 square feet Can you still use that additional 10 000 square feet for other areas on site? And I think that's a good question she brings up The only thing is how is the board going to apply that? And whether or not you want The neighborhood development association or the sorry the condominium association come back to modify the permit So I think one thing we can do is for the conditions is to ward a condition where Or maybe add on to the condition to pertain to the public facility that they build in that little circle What they can do with that excess square footage And I guess a process for doing so without having to come back to the board for Say like a mini pocket park that has a place head or something And that would be something located outside of that circle. So say if like, you know, one of those small Green space areas right off the main pathway that's commonly owned or commonly shared You know, why not put like a swing set there or something, you know Would you really want them to come back to revise a comp permit for a swing set? No, so I think that's something that maybe you know, uh, chris and caroline I could discuss as something we can add as a condition And I think that was actually a pretty important point that miss green bomb brought up Can can I just add a little bit to the thought process is that you know The whole intent is that we are getting homeowners that are really going to be establishing a community and staying here And we'll be living in these in these homes for 30 years, hopefully So they may have kids in the beginning and that swing set might be great in the beginning But maybe 30 years from now that swing set has lived its lifespan as a structure And so what happens then if like something wants to come down and how are those calculations sort of configured with that? So i'm just unfortunately adding more complexity to the conversation But um, I think it's important to think about that this isn't just like a one point in time that we're really trying to establish something That's going to be here for generations. And so how to as structures evolve and things change How does that how does this impact these sort of square foot numbers that we're we're hitting on so And I think the other question that We have to be thinking about is we want to empower the owners to make the decisions about what they want in their community And we want to give them flexibility to do that without having a lot of um Need to come back to the zba or need to come back to town for anything that's a minor Change and to their owners they ought to be able to do that as long as and and that's that's one of the things that we want to do so That's that's the tension that we're we're looking at here from the screen bomb I think is is how specific do we want to be and how how much flexibility and Do you want to give to the the new owners to design what they want? Well, I would like them to be able to design what they want And if they want to change um These little areas to a bocci court from what was for little thoughts That's their issue and it shouldn't have to come back to the planning uh zoning board I mean bocci courts who knows what they maybe want to use these little areas for People ball who knows but they shouldn't have to come to us to ask Not not be denying them Out fight at the bit beginning of having the flexibility of doing what they want to do right Yeah, I get on that one place in the back Doesn't make sense for a lot of things Especially, you know, you got tech issues You know keeping the flexibility there for the owner homeowners association. I think is an important thing that we should I think most of us share this is important. I hope I set up Clearly Yep Okay So I think we've done I we've gone through the waivers we've got some identified some of the additional information we could use And since we're going to be a while for the next meeting Miss Allen I think it gives you time to work with the staff and the staff to come up with um some Some recommendations for us or at least alternatives for us for that I sense that um board members have not had a chance to look at the conditions um that were in the decision document and I and I don't think it's not optimal to kind of wing it the first time through And so what I would ask board members to do Is to take a look at that um this That decision document and beginning on page seven and going through about page 18 or 19 17 or 18 are a bunch of conditions that Miss Murray has come up with and working with the staff that come up with They're all that they're a lot of the issues that we have to deal with everything from local preference to The The transfer of ownership Depending upon 100 or 80 percent. There's a bunch of there's parking. There's a bunch of issues that We may have some we may need to have some discussion about But I don't know how valuable it is to get into those today on everybody on their first impression while we're in this meeting So if unless there's an objection what I would suggest To members of the board is take a look to have this distributed again And maybe in paper the next version in paper to all of us ahead of time if we could Rob, you know The next meeting won't be till February. So we've got some time to do this But to get the next iteration of this out And it won't be significant significantly different than this one But get the next iteration of this out to members a week ahead of time On paper as well as electronically and they can take a look at it And we can have a discussion about conditions at our next meeting I don't The concern about that that's my preference I would not do that if we think that this is going to cause it's such a delay There's going to affect your construction schedule. Ms. Allen. I don't think it will But you tell me No, I think it makes sense. I mean, we've gone through the draft decision ourselves as I noted earlier I believe we could probably turn around our mark up to attorney Murray tomorrow. I'm hoping I'm just looking for some feedback from some of the design team to make sure that there's sections particular to the area of interest the facts are correct and that what we've discussed is correct So I think if we continue to February that will give us Sheen you to do a couple things one. We should have concom buttoned up by the end of january So we would have final site plans By that point so that that would be the final product for you to be reviewing And then we could discuss the conditions I would Mr. Wachilla Thank you, mr. Chair. I was going to ask There was another topic that I don't know if you wanted to save for conditions or to get more clarity on there was A lot of confusion around local preference and how it's applied I don't know if you wanted to get into that tonight or if you wanted to wait until the next meeting to discuss that further Yeah, I figure I bring that up the Memo we just we just got it. I mean And I think that people need to take a look at it. We know that's going to be a an issue We have to discuss. I think you have a You um Mr. Allen you've provided something today or yesterday to us and and I think people should And I don't know if everybody has has seen it quite frankly So I don't know that it makes a lot of sense to spend time on local preference tonight Um, the one thing I would add so I would not spend time on local preference tonight I would start have it in the next condition in the next meeting we have would spend time You know, we're going to be spending time on that The other thing that would be helpful. I think is a um a clarification about Transfer of the 100 percent um of median income homes to Transfer to family members and what is done and how it can be transferred to family members How the family member that obtains the transfer so the second owner the family member how they can dispose of that property I thought I read that the trip. Okay, so you got a original owner original owner transfers it to the The son or daughter or another family member the son or daughter of that other family member within the first 15 years decides They want to sell it Do they have are they does it have to be sold to an income? Qualified buyer or does it or is it open to anyone? I know after 15 years. It's open to anyone So that's the question. Yeah clarification on that. Yeah, and the second clarification is Is this Even is that something that we can even affect or is this commonwealth builders? Regulations or is this state regulations about the transferring of this property? So those two things I think are um issues that we need clarification on If you can get done I can answer those right now if that would be helpful So the transfer to the family members is the commonwealth builders provision again that really is too Looking to address the racial wealth Gap and to Ensure that people who have assets are able to pass them down to the next generation So really that is that is a key provision for commonwealth builders And I think a very non-negotiable with them. So that key provision is the The second owner can transfer it within the 15 years. The second owner can transfer it to anybody I think it I think it applies. I can go back and look at the deeds I'm pretty sure it applies during any time during the deed year one through 30 You know, it doesn't matter if it's one through 15 or 15 through or 16 through 30 At any time they can transfer to an immediate homeowner. I mean immediate family member Right. I don't know what the exact process is and I can certainly get clarification from mass housing I I doubt because this program is so new. I'm sure they haven't gone through that process yet So they may not have developed their systems in place um But it my sense is it wouldn't be much different from somebody who had a market rate unit being able to transfer it It just probably has some more level of eyes on it through mass housing to confirm Family members. So um, I think there's some questions there that we can certainly ask But like I said, I don't think they've gone through the process yet since this program is so new Yeah, I don't have any questions about transferring to the family member Okay, I just my question with transferring that family member selling it within the What what can they do and what you're saying is you think that family the secondary that second family member Can sell it to anybody at any time no matter No, I think what it is is that the deed restriction still holds year one through 15 So it's triggered to a family member that the provisions of that deed restriction run with that property I guess the question that I have is whether the town can Can do the right a first refusal when it's to an immediate family member. I don't think that is the case, but I Attorney Murray taking your head I don't think that's the case. I don't think that's the case either. Um But yeah, so they would still need to sell it to a To restricted buyer in that first in that first for the 100 100% in that first 15 years correct or wait for the 16th year and sell it to anybody Correct. Correct. Got it And those are commonwealth builder regs not not that's not a It's no it isn't that you do or it's not something that we can affect. No It is commonwealth builders. It really is a key key part of their program Right. Okay. Yep And when you say sell to anyone in year 16, you mean anyone who would qualify Under the low income provision First development. No, no So that's part of again. It's it's allowing a home buyer to Gain greater greater equity than they typically would in other projects You know, if you have a 99 year restriction You're limited on those on those buyers and what you can you can make for a profit So the difference between the 16 to 30 is it's that shared equity provision Which means that there is a calculation of how much profit can be made Um Or the the profit is set at the market But it's split 50 50 between the home buyer and the public funders So the town of amorous would get the money a portion of that profit of that sale during year 16 to 30 So they can sell in fair open market value? Correct But that's but half of the profit goes back to the town But that's just for the hundred percent correct For the 80 percent Buyers at 80 percent immediate income it remains it has to be it can transfer to a family member all the time Yep, but a sale to a non-family member for the 30 years is restricted on income basis, correct And after 30 years, then you have it was just a complicated. It's a complicated It's super complicated and we were really trying to negotiate with commonwealth builders to allow that One to 15 and 16 to 30 for all of the units to make it equitable for the development But because this is the 40 b permit Those 80 percent have to be restricted under the 40 b regs And so they're going to have that universal deed writer, which we provided you with a copy of so, right? Yeah, yeah Is it clear mr. Henry did that answer your question? Thank you great I know I spent a long time trying to figure this out and reading through the deed and then talking with staff to See how I can understand it. Mr. Greenbaum Yes, I have two more complicated things and I hope I can So everybody understands it um, I read Ms. Allen's most recent memo about the impact Of adopting or how the units will be allocated If we had used the local preference And so what I'm asking is if she could give us a Listing to what would be the impact on tenants or owner selection if we did not have The local preference adopted in other words We've got half of it if we have local preference for we don't have Of what happens All right, it's kind of best mixed up again We know what happens with local preference, but we don't know what the process of owner selection is Without local preference tell him to say it right I wrote it to rob and an email. So And that that would be a lot clearer. Does anybody I I did respond I did respond to this question earlier today And um, and and rob does have that so he can either send out my email response to the board as an attachment to the next board packet Um, and I'm happy to talk through it at it when you want to discuss local preference. Okay, because because I You you made it a lot clearer what the process is the tenant selection done of the last Meeting that we had so now I want the parallel scenario for no local Conference, okay. Do you get it? Yeah Okay, and the other issue is I don't quite understand You made a statement at one point That the ownership Monthly expenses can't exceed 30% of their income. Is that what you said? Correct So I'm curious about local taxation On the situation of a leasehold where I gather from the Assessor The land is not taxed under a leasehold. It somehow rather comes under the homeowners, but How when people have different incomes How we have done a Assess each property. That's the same but presumably the all of the two bedrooms are Similar and all of the three bedrooms are similar But some people are locked into a different well with the 30% of your income Everybody's going to have a different Number so um, how's it going to work? I was an assessor for six years. So that's come to my mind And we did have a leasehold arranged on an ice Icepond woods up until the 90s went from some reason the assessor decided to divide it up into lots Because of problems with it. So I'm curious because this is another Cost to the taxpayer of the town of emersed Um, if some people's taxes are lower than others and they're not equitable because of different income Because that doesn't work for anybody else Your taxes other your taxes whatever When you have to be I can restate it That's what you're saying is what's no matter if it's for taxes or for whatever purpose or the homeowners association does or for Um, because all these are factored into the total housing cost You have the the mortgage you have the taxes and you have the homeowners association. Those are all factored in What happens when somebody's income drops and it's um and they can't and they can't meet they Their expenses that they that they're obligated for are less than they are There are more than they have more than 30. What do you do? It's not just taxes It's for anything and that's a legitimate question. I hadn't thought of what happens in that case So the quite so if i'm understanding correctly, so the question is if what if somebody's income drops and the taxes What if they're in what if their income drops? everything their mortgage payment their Condo payment or the homeowners association and taxes are all factored in and they all have to be less than It can not exceed 30 Right. Yes, and that is to set the initial sales price So that's how we so that's how mass housing sets the initial sales prices At the time of marketing. So what they look at at the time is you're looking at the mortgage interest rates you're looking at They're going to look at what we believe the condo fees are going to be They'll probably contact the town to determine what the estimated taxes are going to be um, so then that's how they figure out what the What they what the homes can be sold for based on all of those factors looking at somebody's Income under the HUD guidelines and determining that they can't pay more than 30 of what their income is based on the guideline Does that make sense? Right? So if so if somebody's income drops It's almost they're a homeowner right so they either have to go and get uh, um, you know go to the make an appeal Either to the assessors. I mean, I think there's a whole this is what happens when you become a homeowner So the 30 doesn't go through it's just for qualification. It's not like It's not like section eight. We're Correct and we're not going to kick right and we're not going to kick anybody out because they're making more than that You know, then all of a sudden they've got a better job and now they're making more You're not going to kick somebody out of a property for that. So it's really that that calculation is really to set those sale prices Okay, so it doesn't follow through each That's not my on an annual basis Okay, so that's my first question related to the taxes then Everybody you're you're setting the sale price for a specific unit for a specific applicant Correct Not for a specific applicant. So this is at the time of marketing So when we go to market the homes when we're probably halfway through construction We'll get final sale prices with mass housing. They're going to look at all of these different factors We don't know what the interest rates are going to be two years from now. They could be three percent They could be 13 percent. We don't know And so they look at all these different factors at that time And at that point they will set sale prices for each of the tiers of homes So they'll set it for a sales price for the For the two-bedroom one-story houses 80 percent AMI They'll set a sales price for the one and a half story to bedroom 80 percent AMI They'll set a sale a different sales price for the three bedroom 80 percent AMI and they will do the same thing for the 100 percent AMI So we will have six different sale prices and that is what's going to be marketed We've published that in the newspaper. That's what gets put out there in terms of this is the sales prices For these homes and that is set in stone at the time of marketing Okay, so Individual people will not be subsidized for a lower sales cost because their income is less everybody pays the same You pay the same based on whatever. I mean what what unit you're purchasing. It's correct And what they're paying per month is going to depend on a lot of different factors, right? If they've set aside $75,000 for a A down payment that's going to bring their mortgage payment Down a lot if somebody only can put down $6,000 that makes a huge difference So at the end of the day, it really is going to be very individualized based on some of those factors on how much somebody can put down For down payment and under commonwealth builders they're required at a minimum to put down three percent What we model with commonwealth builders is a five percent Down payment assistance, but somebody could certainly have been saving and squirreling away money And able to or you know, unable to use those funds. So They could put down more Mr. Henry Thank you, Mr. Chair And I know we're talking about local preference in our next meeting, but I had a quick question which is a follow-up from our last meeting Do we know what number of units would be allocated just for local preference not the crates here just an actual raw number So it depends on what percentage the community would want to set but the highest i'm sorry people keep jumping around on my screen So the highest that that um, you could be set is 70 percent, which would be 21 units Okay, that would be the highest But I think it's important to read the memo and really understand how It works because it's not typical like a rental project with pooling. It's a tiered system So once we get through all of the applicants in the first tier If all 21 homes if you include local preference in all 21 homes are set We moved on to second tier If say you only have 10 people that qualify under tier one And you don't hit your 21 Those units are one they get go down into tier two and that is outside the low That is outside your local preference threshold So the 21 really only would apply to that first tier if this was something you were going to adopt It's and it's a cap Not a not a minimum. It's a cap not a minimum. That's a great way of explaining it. Thank you I read that. Thank you. I read the tiering part. Thank you. Yep Um, miss Bresta you had your hand up and Yeah, I wanted to say two things one in response to miss Greenbaum's questions That um kim mu who is the assessor and I think rob But she'll probably mention this But kim mu is willing to come and meet with you to answer questions about taxation And I think that was one of the things that miss greenbaum was concerned about that people who Pay less for their unit have you know less taxes and so she could go into that if that is of interest The other thing I wanted to point out is that laura baker who is a representative of Valley community development is in the audience and she has had her hand up for a while So she may have some ability to enlighten us about some of these questions Thank you That's a that's a good catch um Rob, can you see bring her in to see if she wants to have We'll be coming for it Miss baker, can you give us your name and address for the record? Of course, uh, this is laura baker. I work at valley CDC. We're located at 256 pleasant street in north hampton um I did want to jump in and address the question about assessed value because it comes up pretty much every time we develop affordable housing so um The assessors will take into account The fact of the deed restriction when they assess the value of these condominiums so The value is compromised it is reduced By the fact that the sellers cannot sell it at true market value And so they have in fact, I believe now This state has a special code for affordable housing for setting assessed values for affordable Properties that they didn't use to have so It it is a fixed tax rate. It doesn't vary based on the income of the owner of the condominium But it is a lower tax rate that reflects the kind of compromised market value of these properties Because they are deed restricted So I wanted to add That makes sense. Thank you okay Well, we're getting to eight o'clock, which is we're not going to have additional Discussion about conditions. I think that's we've done enough for tonight um and what I would like to do is move to Continue this hearing Until the date's certain, but I see Ms. Greenbaum, you have your hand up before we move to that. Oh, yeah Oh, yes, I'm the painter back tonight um I have a question looking at With or without with or without the local subsidy If somebody makes tier one on all of the other Categories and lives in Amherst a BIPOC person with enough income for a three-family house And works at UMass for example And that qualifies under all those other categories. Does she also have the or she the family count against the local preference or not In other words, you have it for the 75 Apply or not apply to people who qualified under All the requirements for tier one and they happen to be a UMass working couples family Or can we get can say they qualify or all another these things they don't qualify under the local family Leaving a space for another local family even though they are So the way that this is The way that this is set up is that the highest priority In terms of the lottery is making sure that we have an appropriate sized household Which is defined as a family that is the number of bedrooms plus one. That's Of the most importance Second most important is the dih qualification, which Means living in a qualified census tract. If somebody lives in an Amherst qualified census tract. They've already met that requirement That's what I mean. Yeah But The fact that they work at UMass Counts against Anybody who lives in the qualified census tract Yes, they need it by d dih, but then it would also count against local preference It would so yes, that that is the captain. That's what I wanted them up Okay, all right. So rob Is it February 8th the next So, uh, mr. Chair, what is the next meeting date that we have for this? So normally scheduled meeting day or just like a 40 b Meeting date, let's do a 40 b meeting date because we've been And so when do you when do you return from your trip steve? I return on the 28th of January. All right. So the options we have for the time being our February 1st Or February 15th Um, or you could also do February 29th, but that's a leap your day. So I don't know if that's a good idea um So either the first or the 15th would be the most um first is Really, that's the that's a thursday Yep, there's a thursday I'm just looking at my calendar here to see what Yeah, it's a thursday well, um that gives Three weeks for all this work to get done is that's sufficient from the staff standpoint Or should we go to the go out two more weeks? For my if we can do the 15 that'll be ideal Be ideal for me too, but you know, I want to keep this moving along But I think it's also important that we have time to look at everything and It's a better time for me. The 15th is better And plus you'll give concom time to to approve the permit and stuff and then do the work conditions So I think that probably makes the most sense. Let's do the 15th at six o'clock Okay So I would entertain a motion that we continue this hearing Until february 15th at six o'clock. Oh, mrs. Preston will be public comment like you're gotten Oh No, you're Beautiful. Should we do public comments first? Yes. We have to do yes. Yes. Thank you Thank you. I was so anxious. I appreciate both you Finding that reminding me of that. All right. Now the time for public comment on this If you wish to comment, uh, please So indicate by raising your hand or by pressing star nine on your phone star nine For prom night star nine on your phone And when you do, please give us your name and address for the record I see No hands. I see any hands. Um, I think a lot of people in tenants are valley cdc people And it's still a good catch even though there's nobody there. It's really I appreciate the catch on public comment. Thank you. Yep All right any other comments from members of the board or from the petitioner Now now I'll entertain a motion that we continue this Until february 15th at six So moved. Mr. Chair. Thank you second second It's removed in second and any discussion No discussion. Uh, this requires a roll call vote chair votes. I Mr. Henry. All right Mr. White From the bed from the sick bed. Thank you It's green ball I The vote is four to nothing the motion passed Um, the next order of business is public comment on any items not before the board tonight I see no hands Or no phone calls. All right. Nope um The next is just any old any new business Normally that's for scheduling rob. If you'll just go through the schedule for the next few meetings. That'd be helpful Sure. Let me pull up my calendar. Um Okay, so next week january 11th is our next normally scheduled meeting That is the continued hearing date for the shootsbury road solar project As well as a couple of public meeting items that are very minor things The week after that january 17th is the continued hearing date for um The proposed night club known as games underground at um, but would walk In the overhang where the former hazel's blue lagoon was located um And then the week after that we have january 25th Um, we do have one permit hearing scheduled for that date, but it's escaping me at the mud. Mr. Chair I apologize. I don't remember what it was um Then we have February 8th meeting. We are anticipating a possible variance application to come before the board um And then after that nothing else is scheduled at the moment with the exception of this on february 15th That's all I had. Okay Alrighty, so and as always if you have um Travel plans or conflicts for meetings, especially for for full members Please let rob know so that we can schedule As full of panels possible Any other questions from members of the board? All right It's time to I think we can close it up Do we have a motion to To adjourn? I I'll take yours as a second miss green bomb. So we have it's been moved and seconded Uh, that motion is not debatable The vote occurs on the motion to adjourn Chair votes aye Mr. Henry aye, mr. White Aye Miss green ball. Aye The vote is forwarded. Nothing. Uh, we are adjourned. Thank you all