 Hello everyone and welcome to Inside Leather History, a fireside chat. I'm Doug O'Keefe and the producer of the chats, which are a program of the Leather Archives and Museum. Today, it's a very cold January evening, the 19th of January in Chicago. I hope Oklahoma City is a little warmer. Yet today I'm interviewing Tiffany Olson. Tiffany is the second international Ms. Transgender Leather. You held that title for about three years, isn't that right? In theory I still do, so yeah. Oh, okay, okay, very good. You're in Oklahoma City and you said it's not any warmer than Chicago. Actually Tulsa, but yeah, it's like in the 30s here and it's cold and windy and miserable. Oh, okay, I've heard that there is some community in Tulsa. Oh yeah, there's a big community, all sorts of fun people. We have our huge pride parade, we have our equality center, which is the source for most resources here around Tulsa. We've got a great little community here for being such a little blue spot in the red state. Why is it so liberal? All the gay people showed up here, I don't know. Of all places. Okay, well, let's start right at the very beginning. Tell me a little bit about where you're from and you're growing up and your family. Okay, average parents, very blue collar, dad was a pipe fitter, mom did real estate and dental hygienist thing and kind of bounced around for that. And of course, you know, the whole homemaker thing. But yeah, average American middle class doesn't get much more white bread than me, unfortunately. Pretty much standard stuff. Of course, I was kind of the weird one. I always had these interesting feelings that I wasn't quite fitting into my skin or my life or the world around me for sure. So that's some early age about six, six years old, you start feeling something's wrong and you don't quite act like the other kids do. And you don't quite fit in with the boys, you don't quite fit in with the girls. Parents weren't thrilled about that, of course, as parents are wanting to do, especially back in the 70s and 80s. They weren't quite as enlightened as they are now. So yeah, I learned to hide all that from a very early age. Your family is from Oklahoma? Actually, my mom is from Canada and is still a Canadian citizen, actually, but she lives in Muscogee. Dad has been in Oklahoma most of his life. So yeah, he's pretty much an out of key and he's a right wing Republican red net gun nut. So yeah, go figure. You mentioned being age six and realizing you weren't fitting in that you were a little different. Tell us more about that. Well, see, I was smarter than smarter than everybody else, of course, right? Nothing to do with gender issues at all. Yeah, I always kind of felt like I should have been a girl and I tried to spend more time with the girl. But you know, at that age, the girls don't think that I think the boys are icky. So I kind of got shoved back into being with the boys and all the rough housing and the rude stuff that boys do. I just wasn't wasn't me. Never got into sports kind of just became an introvert hiding in the corner and just kind of doing my own thing, had my books. So I was I was pretty good, pretty OK with that most of the time. So yeah, did anyone try to draw you into more of the games that were going on or the things children were doing? Once in a while, I just wasn't very good at most of the games they were playing. So after a while, you just kind of stop getting asked so you just get used to spending time by yourself. And yeah, it wasn't until high school actually started making like real friends anyway. My goodness, that's a long time. It's a long time. So it's awkward. So yeah. How awkward? I mean, was this not ever addressed by anyone? There were a few parent-teacher conferences involved. I think the general consensus was I wasn't causing trouble, so it was fine. And since I was doing lots of reading, I was learning lots of things. I always got good grades in English and math, at least early on. Seemed like my teachers always like like my papers that I was writing. So that's always a bonus. What kinds of things were you reading and learning? I got into Greek pathology in like fourth grade to read Odyssey and Iliad. And that jumped me over into some fantasy stuff like Tolkien, Lord of the Rings, Hobbit, stuff like that. And from there, it kind of went sideways into sci-fi. So it's about the time I found Star Trek. So that was that was the end of my innocence. What's your favorite version of Star Trek? I'm kind of old, so my heart is always with the the original series. I'm there with you. Who's your favorite character? Um, it's hard to choose between Kirk and Spock because they're kind of a team. And then if you stick McCoy in there, they're all kind of just a single entity with, you know, three different minds. You said things started to change in high school and you actually had a few friends. Tell us more about that. Well, I actually found some geeky friends who like to sit around and read and play with computers, spend time in the library, started playing some science fiction Star Trek based board games and role-playing games while we were at lunchtime, have a soft spot for Starfleet battles and the old Fast of Star Trek stuff. At what point in high school, though, did you really find something that spoke to you? Oh, well, it was the 80s. So boys were wearing makeup and dressing to film. And I'm like, hey, I could do that, right? So I kind of felt a little bit of a kindred spirit with some of the folks on MTV because, you know, they could be whatever they wanted to be. Basically, they could dress how they wanted. They could wear makeup if they wanted. They could do whatever they wanted to do. About the time we all found out that George Michael was gay. I mean, how could this awful thing happen? You know, I'm like, dude, you're cool. How were you experimenting? What did you do? About that, I started to do some cross-dressing at home. Occasionally, I would wear items of feminine clothing to school. Nothing obvious, of course. Maybe jeans, maybe just a t-shirt was wearing necklaces back then. But then again, everybody was. I didn't have the guts to get my ears pierced back then. So that took a little bit longer. That took a little bit longer. You experiment with makeup? I did one time and that did not go well. One of my teachers called my parents and said that I was wearing makeup. Actually, through high school, I was in Air Force ROTC. So I'm pretty sure it was the colonel in charge of that, that informed my parents that I was a little out of line there. But a very interesting television program impacted you. Tell us about that. Yeah, I was watching Phil Donahue one afternoon when I was at home for some reason. And there were people who were identifying as the opposite sex, transgender folks, and that was the first that I had ever heard of this thing, that someone could transcend genders and live as a woman or a man. And they were comfortable and they were happy. And I'm like, holy crap, that's a thing. And, you know, small town of Oklahoma, you don't see a lot of stuff about transgender folk. And there wasn't any books in our school library about it. Because I looked really hard to try to find something. At least that showed me that there's other people like me and that maybe I'm not quite so alone. And not quite so weird. That was great. You thought you thought you were weird. I still think I'm weird, but that's OK. OK, OK. How did that begin to evolve for you? You said there was nothing in the school library. What other resources did you try to use? Went to the local town library. And I found one book about transgenderism. I think it was Conundrum, but I can't remember the author at this time. But at least that's let me know that, yeah, there are things out there. And then, you know, from then, from then, every time I went to bookstores in general, I was looking for stuff on trans folk. I get a lot of weird looks when you're asking about those kind of books sometimes, especially when you look like the average, average dude. So what does an average dude look like? Heck, if I know. What you began learning as you found these resources? I learned that people can medically transition. They can do a little nip tuck and Bob's your uncle. And you can have all the other parts, which was, you know, shocking to me. I'm like, they can do things like this. It's like magic. So I started reading up on the surgeries and who was performing the surgeries and people that had the surgeries about that time. There was lots of autobiographies featuring trans folk after they had transitioned. And it was becoming more and more of a sensationalized thing, I guess, started seeing a lot of lot more of us on talk shows, not always being shown in the best light, but at least we're out there. So it's if we can at least show that we're not deviance or horrible people or child molesters, you know, the whole thing. It's nice to see other people that are a positive role model as opposed to, you know, the the media where all the trans folk are either prostitutes, dead prostitutes, serial killers, all that sort of thing. So it was very difficult to find a positive portrayal. So it's kind of had to had to, you know, look towards the future and hope that, you know, more stuff about trans folk would come out, be more accessible. Of course, later on the internet popped up and that was a whole new world right there. Do you remember which biographies you found that were beneficial? Um, if I can remember half their their their names now. I know I saw the one about Christine Jorgensen. Of course, she's the most famous one. I can't remember her name now. I'm horrible, keeping up with with names. If you hadn't asked me, I probably could have told you. That's OK. I just wondered, because other people someday are going to see this and they'll probably wonder which ones they should view, you know. Right. Tell me a little bit about the emotions that you felt and the concepts that you suddenly knew from that filled on a new broadcast. Well, it definitely got me very curious and excited. I wanted to know everything about it. I wanted to find other people that identified that way. I wanted to be part of that because I knew that was that was me. Even in those early days, it's like, oh, yeah, that's exactly how I feel. That's exactly what I want. And that kind of started my entire journey right there. So from that point on, I started trying to live a little closer to my true self when I could, still very much in the closet back then. It took me God until the nineties before I actually got brave enough to actually you know, do the whole thing, go out, actually left the house, met up with other other people like me. And started having fun finally, instead of being scared to be me all the time. Tell us about the first time that you went out of the house. Dressed as you felt was appropriate. OK. Actually, I think the very first time I went out was I had talked to my wife at the time about it. And she got excited a couple of times because I was a big Barbie doll, really. So she got me all gussied up and found me a dress. And we kind of went out driving around, which we never actually got a car, but at least we were, you know, out of the house. So anything could happen. It was, you know, it felt felt dangerous at the time just to be out driving around as my true self, because I never knew someone would just happen to see me and something would happen. Was until after I got divorced, which was probably for the best in retrospect, I got to actually start participating more in my own life. That was a time where I first got a real computer, got on the Internet, started going into the chat rooms, found a few a few people in Tulsa that were like me and eventually actually found a person and we set a date to meet up all dressed and went out to a gay bar, drag club, whatever you want to want to call it. And we had the best time. It was just amazing just to be us just for the first time to actually go out in public, be seen as women instead of just, you know, some weird dude. How long were you married? Six very long years. Well, your wife had to have been very open minded to have accommodated you. Addressing as a woman. Yeah, at first she just thought it was something fun to do. But of course, once I had a taste, I wanted to do it more and more and more. And eventually she just got fed up with it and annoyed. And then came all the stuff like, you know, you're not man enough for me. And things kind of went downhill from there. It was nice while it lasted, but sometimes things just don't work out like you hope they do. Tell me more about the progression transgender because you went driving around. But I assume that the coming out and going to a gay bar was a little bit later. What happened in the meantime? I was still cross dressing at home. My wife and I kind of had a deal where she would go out with her friends. I could have the house to myself to do whatever I wanted to do. And that was usually my time to experiment with makeup and hair and try on clothes and do my own little fashion show in the living room for the cat, because there was only one that would actually watch. But at least I had some quiet time. I got to think a lot about what I wanted my life to be and got lots of dressing time. So that was that was kind of nice. Just when she came home was when the issue started. So I had to be had to be washed up and back into the boy mode by the time she got home or there were there would probably be a fight. So tell me what you learned with doing makeup. How did you learn about these things and about dressing? Tell me about that. Lots of trial and error, mostly I think like like most women do started getting magazines like Cosmo started trying to do the stuff that they were doing and dress you know, somewhat like like the models. Obviously my budget wasn't quite the what the magazines had, but I did my best. Found a couple of looks that look, you know, not too terrible on me. Found a couple of makeup looks that seemed to suit my face. Got rid of the bright blue eyeshadow and yeah, yeah. And the entirely two red lipstick and learned how to kind of tone things down for a more, you know, realistic look, not not not full a dry queen, I guess. Were you working with anyone at all? Was anyone teaching you anything? I had no no, not until I, you know, got divorced and got on the computer. I really didn't have anybody that was helping with things. My wife showed me a couple of tricks here and there. But again, you know, she got bored pretty quick with that. Just you watch lots of television and look at magazines and you try to, you know, see the looks that on people that kind of look like you and just try to match that as best you can. Yeah, there's there were some days where I scared myself in the mirror. Why? Let's take a step back. Tell me about the gay bar, the drag bar you visited. Yes, yes, Renegades was what was the place. It was a pretty well known gay bar at the time. Very small place with the stage bar, of course, pool table as they all do. And it's actually a very nice place to come out. Everybody there was very accepting. People told me that I was cute and, you know, they liked the way that I looked in the dress. For the most part, folks were really supportive there. It was the first place that I could go where I didn't have to really be afraid of being me. I was amongst my people. How long were you visiting Renegades? We probably went there, God, at least twice a month for two years. Until we found a few other places to go. Like, let's see, it was a dance club that was gay friendly. So we went there a few times to started to expand our horizons and then started going out to normal places, you know, like restaurants and movie theaters, you know, as ourselves. And we did get a few looks. My friend at the time is like six foot three. Oh, my, you know, I'm five, nine, where we're not small petite girls by any means. So I think we kind of stood out, not to mention we were probably addressed a little inappropriately. Oh, so tight clothes, short skirts, probably way too much makeup. I had a thing for boats with heels, probably fishnets at that time. So, yeah, I mostly look like a hooker, I think, probably. But was that intentional? I think partly just because I was kind of wanting attention. That was the best way that I knew how to get it at the time was to dress a little provocatively and kind of see what what happened. There's kind of experimenting, testing the waters to, you know, see if anybody would would say anything. And we didn't have too many bad encounters, but there were a lot of people talking behind our backs, saying all sorts of, you know, things. Homophobic slurs, mostly, you know, how that goes. Hesitated to say the word here because it's a family show. How did you manage that? At first, a few first few times that I, you know, part people talked about me, I was kind of devastated. It's like, I mean, I'm just trying to be me. And these people are already, you know, slinging hate at me. I've learned pretty quick that if you want to be a trans person and live your life, you have to develop a thick skin pretty quickly. You can't let this stuff get to you. You can't let how other people feel dictate your life. You were obviously working during all of this time. How did it affect you professionally? At the time, I was working as a car stereo installer. So it's fairly, you know, boyish job. I was kind of doing the very subtle transition thing, letting my hair grow longer, dressing a little bit more feminine here and there. Actually, it took about a year before my boss even noticed anything. And then suddenly people are calling me ma'am and miss and my boss is trying to figure out who they're talking about. Because if they're outside in the shop talking to me, they're always using feminine pronouns. And then they go back to talk to my boss using those pronouns and he has no idea who they're talking about. And then I come in, they put it mean and it's like, oh, him. And they're like, huh? So, yeah, there were a few interesting moments there. Got lots of weird looks, had a couple of people refused to be served by me. They didn't want me working on their vehicles, didn't want me anywhere around their stuff. Actually had a preacher cuss me out for being a sinner and I'm going straight to hell for being me. It's like, just try to live my life here, dude. Come on. So that was a fun day. How did you manage all of that in the long run? What did you do? I just kept on slowly transitioning. It probably took me three years to make the full change. About that time, I was getting research on doctors to start hormones. Actually planning to make a serious change in my life. Eventually, you know, my boss kind of accepted it. Never understood it, never approved. But I was a good worker, so he didn't want to get rid of me. So he kind of just let let me do what I was going to do. Eventually, all the customers just saw me as as Tiffany. So it all worked out. It was a good experience. I would have liked to have transitioned a little quicker. But I think taking my time was probably the the the right thing at that time anyway. How long did the whole process take? From going from full boy mode to all the way girl mode. Sure. Well, I want to start taking hormones and all that stuff, probably about three and a half years. And then after that, it was always, you know, full time as Tiffany, what wasn't trying to do part time. All the time I really kind of butched up was around my parents because they weren't weren't seriously accepting at that time. And at that time, my grandmother was still alive. And, you know, she's like my favorite person in the entire world. Very supportive always. But when I started growing my hair out, she started getting a little old fashioned with me, you know. I think she kind of knew what was going on with me at that time because she could see the, you know, the gradual changes. And she even asked me if I had a boyfriend. So I'm like, OK, she knows something here. I haven't told her anything, but she knows something. Unfortunately, she passed away before, you know, I fully transitioned. So I think she would like the person that I am today, though, at least I hope so. How do you mean? Um, I think, you know, that I am a good person. I do lots of things for the community. I'm a social worker, so obviously I'm into helping people. I try to maintain the calm, collected demeanor. And just do the best I can in the world, really. I'd like to take one step back. You brought up an interesting point about your parents and that you had to butch it up a little bit around them. How did that evolve for you? How did you eventually resolve that issue? Well, with my mom, actually, kind of funny story with that. So I was heading to Tulsa and fully dressed up, you know, slut wear the whole thing and my truck broke down. So who am I going to call? I call my mom. So she has to come and pick me up and we call the tow truck and she sees me for the first time, you know, totally. And she gave me a weird look and asked me what was going on. Is there anything she needed to know about? I'm like, well, this is kind of me now. And she's like, OK, are you being safe? I'm guessing, you know, she was thinking about being a little slutty and having lots of sex, which definitely wasn't the case. I guess that's where mom's minds go to. The first thing it's like, are you being saved? You have clean underwear, you know, that sort of things. But that was kind of how I came out to her. So that was kind of all at once. With my dad, it was a little more of a gradual process. Had a couple of long talks with him. And as I said, he's very right wing Republican dude. So he took a lot longer to accept me as I am. I think at some point he just figured out that I'm his kid, no matter what. And if he loved me before, there's no reason he can't love me now. I just look a little different. I'm so the same person overall, right? So it took him a couple of years to actually come around. He still occasionally has pronoun issues. But he hasn't used my my dead name in the last three or four years. So he's doing pretty good. Tell me a little bit about the name transition for you. I have to admit, I know almost nothing about that with people who have changed their gender. It's kind of a whole whole process. It's kind of one of those things all trans people go through. I mean, you got to pick a name, right? You can't just be nobody. So I think I went through about 10 different names I kind of tried on. So like Jennifer and Michelle and Patricia and God knows how many other other names. And then one day I was listening to the radio and Tiffany. Came on. I think we're alone now. Yes, it's on once upon a time and like, huh. She's cute. She's a breadhead. Tiffany, huh. That works for me. So I'm like, hey, I'm going to be Tiffany now. I just kind of changed a little bit to only have one F because I have to be different. Can just be a normal Tiffany, right? No, no, that's that's not me. So yeah, that's how I chose my name. But it's kind of stuck. It's kind of stuck. Everybody says that it suits me, even though I when most people think of Tiffany, it's usually like a cheerleader or someone bubbly kind of airheaded and I'm kind of opposite of that. But somehow it still seems to work. Now, what rigmarole did you have to go through for that name change? Oh, God. So for the name change, you have to file all this paperwork with the county clerk. You have to put your intent to change your name in the newspaper for 30 days. Oh, well, your creditors want to track you down. So everything is out there. If anybody cared to look at that little section of the newspaper, they would have known, you know, what I was planning. Surprisingly, the process for me went fairly smooth. I had my court dates, went up to the judge, told him what I wanted to do, what I was changing my name from and what I wanted to be now. And he's like, hmm, you know, you don't look like this other person. So OK, here you go. I'll sign off on it. I'm like, OK, that worked out pretty good. And I was expecting a fight, really. I had all all all the stuff ready, like, hey, this is me. This is who I'm going to be. This is, you know, what I want to do. Like, let's figure out how to make this work. And then he's like, OK, here you go. So that's straightforward. OK. Yeah, just yeah. Had a little more trouble getting my driver license changed. The the guy at the DMV was kind of like, I don't know that we can do this. I'm like court order. Here you go. Wow. So he finally talked to a supervisor and I said he had to do it. So he definitely didn't agree. He made his feelings well known that he didn't agree with with my life choices. But he still had to do it. Unfortunately, the gender marker couldn't be changed even with a court order back then. They wouldn't change your gender marker without proof of irreversible gender surgery. And it's kind of still that way. And at that time, you had not done that. Is that what I understand? Right, right. That time I had not done that. I had just started taking hormones. I see. So not really any physical changes at all. So, yeah. Eventually, was that corrected? Not yet. It's about to be. Oh, I see. Now that finally had my gender surgery. I have a nice letter for my surgeon. Since it's about time to get a real ID now, I have to come up with all the stuff for my transition, all the court orders for name change, the stuff from my doctor, all that stuff to prove I am who I say I am. I'm not trying to defraud the United States of America. So your transition is complete. Do I understand? Yes, yes, it is. As of November 2nd, I completed my my surgery. Life is very different now. For example, the whole urination thing is very different. That was probably the most strangest thing. It's not like you can just stay in there and do if they cannot think about it. You actually have to sit down, get comfortable, kind of make things happen, and it's much, much, much messier. And I'm still having to dilate, which is the bane of my existence right at the moment, which just means I get to stick a hard piece of plastic into my nether regions for at least 15 minutes, three times a day. Oh, my gosh, OK. Everything stays stretched out and nothing decides to close up on its own. Oh, I see. I see. It's exciting. I have no knowledge of this. OK. So one thing, though, that I've encountered is the transgender circumstances. I have a niece and I've had I have chosen. Let me rephrase that. I have chosen to reassign gender pronouns all the way back to, you know, a babyhood. Just for continuity. Right. What are your thoughts on that? Because that was something new for me to learn to do. Yeah, I see that. Now, I think that is a fantastic thing. In my head, I've always been female, so I've always, you know, gone back and changed my pronoun to in my brain, at least to be female. It's funny when talking to my parents because everything is still kind of he. They haven't quite switched over in their brain. But when they get to a certain point in my timeline, suddenly the pronouns change. So we're kind of going farther back each time with the female pronouns. But once you get back to childhood, it's it's still a he for them. Yeah, that was a learning experience that I had to learn. And I was educated. By a couple of people I know who said that that would be the best way of dealing with the pronoun change was just to redo it all together. Right. Yeah, because if you're talking to someone that doesn't doesn't know you and you're switching pronouns and genders, they're going to be totally confused. It's it's just to stay consistent. So now she's she all the way back to being an infant. So that's awesome. Good job. Good job. Well, thank you very much. You tell. Tell me a little bit more about who you've become in the community now. What things have you learned about being in? For example, the overall. LGBTQ X, Y, Z community. It's a very welcoming place. For the most part, it's very warm and comfortable. People usually don't judge you by your appearance. They're more flexible as far as. Seeing you as the person that you are. That's why I always try to do as much as I can for the community to kind of give back some of that welcome, welcomeness and warmth that they gave to me. I think it's our job as more mature folk to, you know, start cultivating the the young ones to, you know, feel comfortable in that world and as them as themselves. How are you doing that? I get a lot of friends that have trans kids or they know or have friends that have trans kids. They ask me to talk to them a lot. So I try to be very encouraging and say, this is this is how you want to live. That's totally your choice. If you change your mind later, that's cool, too. Just have to let people know how you want to be. What you want to be called, what pronouns you want. If you don't want any programs, pronouns, they can we can do that, too. Totally up to you. Make sure that they have, you know, all the. Information that they need to make a choice. OK, that's how they want to live their their life. How did you find the medical communities reaction toward your reassignment? Well, when I was shopping around for a plastic surgeon to do my breast augmentation, I thought it would be pretty easy. You call the doctor, you know, you make an appointment to go up there. They look at you. They go, sure, give money and they do the thing. I ended up calling 30 plastic surgeons around Tulsa, Oklahoma City. And none of them were willing to work with a trans person. Wow. They just told me that we don't do that here. And it's a breast augmentation. I mean, if a woman walked in there tomorrow and wanted one, you'd say, sure, let's do this. But me, they kept saying no. After that, I stopped disclosing that I was trans when I was talking to the the office and the surgeons. One place I even went up and in for exam. At that time, I had some breast development and was fairly feminized at that point. So they looked at me and said, sure, we can do this. You know, they didn't bother looking in my pants, thankfully, as they probably shouldn't be. But I had a deposit down. I had the surgery date set about a week before the surgery. They called, say they had to cancel because they looked at my medication list and it indicated that I was not a natal female and they were not interested in working with me. So that one went bust. After about 30 more phone calls, I finally got a hold of a doctor in Tulsa who was reluctant to talk to me, but I kind of begged for us to meet in person so he could get to know me and my motivations and make a decision from there. And we did that. We talked for like an hour. He was very, very curious. And then he just suddenly goes, you know, there's no reason why we can't do this. And I'm like, hell, yeah. So I finally set a date and did it. So did you consider perhaps going elsewhere? Yeah, I mean, there's always at that time, Canada and Thailand were kind of the two big alternatives to anybody in the states. But I was a very poor girl and couldn't afford to make that kind of travel commitment, not to mention, you know, not having any kind of support system to go quite that far. So it was just made more sense in my mind anyway, just a little closer at home, even though it cost me way more frustration than it probably should have. Did you encounter similar problems for the additional work? No, thankfully, since I just did it recently, there are surgeon to specialize in transgender surgery popping up all over the states. So I did a little bit of research, found the Crane Center in Austin, called them up, asked a lot of questions. They sent me lots of information stuff and I made my choice to go there. And they were very friendly and eager to help and anything I ever needed, they were happy to get me. So they were amazing down there. That's great. That's great. I was very happy. Let's talk about your contest, the International Ms. Trench Transgender Leather. Tell us about that contest. OK, well, it kind of started when my friends was developing a transgender contest in Louisiana, the South Central Ms. Transgender Leather was the first step. And I was very reluctant. I ended up kind of doing it as a favor to her. Thank you, Samantha. But that kind of kicked off the thing. I was very, very scared. I'm not exactly a social animal and talking in front of people is difficult sometimes. So having to be up there in front of these judges that are kind of staring at you, trying to do your little spiel and do the modeling thing and to show them that you're not too crazy and are willing to be a part of the community. That was a very interesting couple of days. I had been told I was going to have competition and it ended up one person popped up like last minute, like 50 minutes before the contest started, basically. And she was very new to everything. I think what killed her chances is she brought up Fifty Shades of Grey to the the Leather folk. And that didn't go so well, really. No. So I felt kind of bad for her. But, you know, it's a learning experience and all. And you mentioned Samantha. She was the first Ms. Transgender Leather. Right. About 2013 or so. Isn't that right? Right. Yeah. OK. I'm sorry. And where was it held? You mentioned Louisiana. Yeah, I think it was Shreveport. OK. And this was a standalone contest. Right. OK. How big of a contest was it? Was it well populated? It was a pretty small bar, basically. There's probably, you know, the five or six judges, Tally people, Samantha, me, a couple of boot blacks and maybe 30 people in attendance on top of that. So it wasn't a very big crowd, which was probably a good thing for my my nerves. And I think that they had a very bright light shining on me. So I didn't actually see anybody, so that was kind of helpful, too. But you said you did it as a favor to Samantha. Yeah, I really hadn't ever thought about competing. I had won a contest previous, a few years earlier, as Ms. Oklahoma T-Girl. OK. Very small, local contest. And what did that entail? Mostly just a fashion show, some very silly questions. And I think it was my shining personality that won them over. Very good. Or my butt in that dress, maybe I'm not quite sure which one. But a small contest. What were your thoughts on being a public figure? Um, I was not ready for that. I had kind of anticipated going to this the contest losing and going home gracefully and not have to think about it anymore. But then I won. And suddenly there's all these other commitments you have to have to make. I had to commit to go into international, had to commit to go into the different leather events, do educational stuff. So suddenly I'm an educator. And that took me a little time to settle into as well, trying to figure out, you know, some kind of class to do. Something I wouldn't fail at too horribly. What did you do? My first couple of classes were just basic transgender one on one. It's really basic information about what transgender is, because even at the places where there's lots of leather folk, trans people are still very much a minority and people have questions. They want to want to know what we're all about. So I was happy to to do that. Got into some really good discussions, actually, about gender roles and how strictly we should adhere to those and all sorts of cool things. Where were you teaching this? I think it was there was one south central, I think. OK. And another was in Oklahoma that isn't around anymore. A tribal fire, that's what that one was. OK, OK, I've heard of it. Tell me about the international contest. Well, again, I had kind of wasn't quite sure I was ready for that. But at this point, I'm kind of all in. So get all my stuff together, get someone to kind of help me out because everybody needs a chaperone, right? Make sure I get there on time and whatnot and got there. Where was it held? Oh, keep asking the questions. Was it Atlanta? Yes, yes, it was. Good job. Thank you. My brain is full of holes, they say. I'm getting old. You're younger than me. And not by much. But yeah, I I get there and I find out that I'm only contestant again. Oh, boy. And this time there is a Mr. transgender leather also. So he was super cool. Nice guy from Australia as you've. Decrysalis, yes. Yes. Super nice guy. He really helped me through it because I was kind of in shambles, a nervous wreck and he was too, even though he's amazing. So we kind of helped each other with pep talks and say, yeah, you're awesome. You got this, no worries. And somehow we both got through it and both ended up with with titles. You were competing at the same time. Yes, yes. Oh, I see. I see. Yeah, same contest. I think I went first and he went first the next time. And, you know, back and forth like that. But yeah, same judges and everything. What was the biggest challenge for you doing that? Um, again, talking in front of people that I didn't know and tried not to look like an idiot, trying to sound like I actually knew what I was talking about. At the time, I was kind of still a little inexperienced with the leather world. I actually only been immersed in that for a couple of years and only from, you know, one kind of point of view. So, mostly the the BDSM side. So I had to do lots of research on on leather. And I found out it means something different to everyone. Yes, it's not a real good definition. So when the desert asking me, what is leather? And I'm like, OK, to me, it's about community, helping others, being involved in something bigger than yourself. And the sex and spanking don't hurt. So. How have people reacted to you? Do they see you as a community leader? Do you see yourself as a community leader? I really don't always see myself as a community leader. I have people telling me all the time that I am that now I'm a role model, the source of information and support. And I think that's amazing. I don't always, like I said, don't always feel that way myself because I still feel like a little shy girl from 10 years ago. Don't think I've changed that much. But being around all these amazing people and spending lots of play parties where it's been most of my time, naked, you tend to get a bit more self confidence. That's wonderful. Right. It's a great world. It's a great world. How do you see the inclusion of people in the various contests now? We've seen transgender winners at IML, for example. Right. Right. How do you see that? I think it came far too late. The transgender contests were kind of a reaction to one of the IMLs where a trans person won and a lot of the community didn't think that that was right. That was Tyler McCormick. He was the first transgender winner. Yes. Yes. Yes. He's a super nice guy, too. So that shifted focus over to, well, I guess we'll just have a contest for trans people. Yes. We don't have to worry about being discriminated against or pated on for winning titles. But then after I had the international title for a couple of years, the win started changing in the major leather titles. They started to become more inclusive and trans people could compete. Yes. Well, trans people could win. So I think the time of separate contests is over now. And everything's just going to be one big inclusive thing. And I hope that stays that way for the foreseeable future, because I would hate for it to go back the way it was, where there was so much, you know, discontent and hate and crap being slung around about some amazing people. Well, I can't see it, the genie going back in the bottle, and let's hope it doesn't, as it is now so normalized. Yeah, where people think much of it, you know. No, the people I've talked to now just feel like that's a normal thing. They don't really have any opinions when we're there. It's like people competing. OK. I'm like, yes, finally. Yeah. Equality, equity. Your title only lasted about two contestants. I think two contests. Isn't that right? Yeah, yeah, there was 2014 and 15. They did a contest in 2016. And there was one girl that was competing with me. But again, she was very new. Her thing with leather was she was a leather worker. She worked with leather instead of the leather community. So there was a little disconnect there. But she tried really hard and she was super nice, at least until the end. She was a little mean to me, but that's OK. I don't hold any grudges. Where do you see the trans community in maybe, let's say, five to ten years? I see it pretty much integrated in with the overall community. I think there's always going to be a need for a separate space for trans people just to spend time with each other. But I think they shouldn't be forced to be in that space. They should have the option of being in the wider community when they want to be. And if they need the safe space just to be with trans people, then they should have that option. Since it's becoming more and more accepted, people are transitioning at a much younger age. I have seen people talking about transition at 12. My gosh. Wow. Whoa. It's good for you, folk. I took me till my thirties to kill my crap into in the place. But there's a lot more education now. There's more information available. There's more role models in the trans community. We're just more out there now. And not quite as ostracized and portrayed as evil people anymore. Fascinating, though, that that attitude adjustment is very recent. It really is. I was shocked how fast that that went. I think it was kind of a rebound because the community was pissed off at other half the community for being mad about trans people competing. And they just kind of went, we don't need you anywhere. We're just going to invite them in and make the welcome and. Do what we do. So. My niece just turned 25 and is somewhere in the middle of all of this. I'm not exactly sure where. But I've been as supportive and as wonderful as I can be about this, because it's certainly a major adjustment and and all you can do is just be there to hold them up and support them. Yeah, people always talk about how stressful transition is on the people around you. They don't always focus on how stressful it is for you. It's like, how is this affecting somebody else? And they forget to ask, are you OK? Is there anything I can do for you? Is there anything you need? You know, they just figure that you're doing it. You know what you're doing, theoretically. And they don't ask a lot of questions. But yeah, I'm thrilled that you're so supportive and I wouldn't expect anything less from you. Well, it would be shameful to slide out if I weren't. So, you know, it's not something I'm choosing to do, but something that I have to do. Right. Because it's the right thing to do. Right, exactly. I don't see a choice there. No, there's no reason to be mean about it. There's no reason to be judgmental about it. Right. Right. What advice can you offer someone who's exploring not only transitioning but transitioning and maybe going for a title? IMSL, IML, whatever. Yeah, my advice is to start transitioning as early as you feel comfortable. Your body is going to be more accepting of the hormones and all the other changes. If you could block all the testosterone poisoning, if you're going to male to female, that would be a plus. Ask lots of questions. Talk to lots of people in the community. Talk to surgeons. Talk to therapists. Do all the research you possibly can to make sure that that's what you want to do. And then live your life. As far as titles, hell, yeah, I go for it. I would love to see a clean sweep of all the titles one year, all trans folk. I would be that would just be amazing. I don't think that's unreasonable to happen. It could definitely happen. It's there's there's enough of us now being out and about and ready to go for these titles. What's the biggest misconception about you? That I'm outgoing and an extrovert and folks that know me know I'm really very, very quiet. With with my job as a social worker, I have to talk to clients. I'm head of a housing department. So I've got, you know, my own staff I have to interact with every day. And they all think that, you know, I'm just a wonderful, happy, good, lucky person and no issues at all. And then I get home and it's like, I don't even want to talk to the cat. Oh, yeah, I can imagine. Just want to be quiet, sit in the corner. Watch TV, read a book, whatever. But most people that meet me out, they think I'm just this. Extrovert, it's weird, it's really weird. Tiffany Olson, thank you for an amazing interview for Inside Another History, a fireside chat. Well, thank you. I'm excited to be here and I appreciate your time and I hope people see this and don't think I'm immoral. They won't.