 A federal high court in Abuja has refused to suck governor Ben Ayadeh of cross-strait estate over his defection from the People's Democratic Party to the All-Progressives Congress. And on the 2023 general election, the PDP Zoning Committee has reportedly thrown the party's presidential ticket open, kicking out zoning arrangements. This is Plus TV Politics, and I'm Kofi Bartels. Once again, welcome to Plus Politics. A federal high court in Abuja yesterday declined to declare vacant the governorship seat of Governor Benedict Ayadeh over his defection from the People's Democratic Party to the All-Progressives Congress, APC. Justice Taiwo Taiwo held that the governors and their deputies can only be removed from office in line with sections 180, 188 and 189 of the Constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria 1999 as amended, which stipulates that elective office holders can only be removed from office on account of death, resignation, or impeachment. The Albuja Justice Taiwo Taiwo said that since defection is not one of the constitutional provisions to remove any governor, no court has the power to insert such into the Supreme Law. The judge, however, agreed that defection from a winning party to a losing party is, in his words, immoral, improper, and condemnable. Of course, these are words that have been used by justices of the Supreme Court in the Attica Abu Bakar case. Well, joining us to discuss this is Basita. And Mr. Basita is the publicity secretary of the S-Hual embattled All-Progressives Congress in Cross River State. Mr. Ta, good evening to you. Thank you very much for your time. And welcome to Plus Politics. Hello. Yes. Mr. Basita, good evening. Thank you for your time. Yes. Thank you. I have a point of correction there. I am no longer the secret public secretary of the party. I was. But now I have a point of correction there. But we know that you have a lot to say about this. So we'll move on. What's the mood in the government house at Calabar, which is on Leopoldville Avenue, just opposite the legendary Hopewaddle training institution and show that the mood in government house is upbeat? Well, the mood in government house is upbeat. The expectations among members of the All-Progressives Congress and behind in terms of what exactly the government is able to put down in terms of development. And that's why yesterday we saw why to be later on and celebrations everywhere when they thought that it's the way of the government. Interesting. I'm sure there was a palpable tension in cross-strait state, indeed, within the All-Progressives Congress and indeed in government house that the governor will be removed or given at least the same treatment that his counterpart in neighboring airborne in the state, a few kilometers from cross-strait state is David Umahi, who was earlier removed by the court, although he has a reprieve from the appeal court. I'm sure there was some sort of tension and apprehension. Would I be right to say that? Yes, yes. Quite normal. There was a wave of apprehension, particularly among members of the All-Progressives Congress in cross-strait state. And also, in reference to what happened in the case of the election of David Umahi of a boy in state, you know, there was tension and there was apprehension. A lot of people have talked about the embarrassment and the method of Umahi, who also come the way of the election of the governor, Iadi. You know, God may wish, and of course, as the right of the elected, you know, was found to have the tension died down and it's way for the right of the election of the governor. All right, all right. I listened to the lead counsel to Governor Ben Ayadei of the All-Progressives Congress, Chief Mike Ozekome, S-A-N, and gave his own reaction and reasons why he felt the judge gave such a verdict. He talked about judicial rascality and all that. This is the same judge, Miloq Gerebo Justice Taiwo Taiwo, who had previously sacked 20 lawmakers from cross-strait state. We're talking about 18 members of the cross-strait state House of Assembly and two House of Representatives members from cross-strait state. Were you surprised and are you worried about the sort of conflicting judgments coming, not just from the Federal High Court in Nigeria as a whole, as an institution, but also from the Court of Justice Taiwo Taiwo with all due respect to his lordship? Executive, I mean, judicial rascality as Mike Ozekome quite rightly put it was what we saw, you know, played out in that document. Especially what we saw of that of the government of the state and moving forward what also happened about the members of the cross-strait state House of Assembly, the 18 members of the Central State House of Assembly. But I don't think that, I don't think that if the government, at least House of, talking about Mike Ozekome's time, he not pointed out, you know, in the court. Perhaps, perhaps we have seen a repeat of the Umayyad and Barashanid. I call it Umayyad and Barashanid, not Umayyad. I'm not saying Barashanid, not Umayyad, not Umayyad, not Umayyad, not Umayyad, not Umayyad, not Umayyad, not Umayyad, not Umayyad. You know, what happens like this? Like this. You see Nigeria, you know, coming out to express their resentment, you know, over the citizens of the judiciary. They're not the great judge or every, all of the jury. But when we see a situation like this, where the law is supposed to be the law, okay, and upside down, in case that we rival it or not. I mean, it gives room for some kind of interrogation as to whether or not to have a future for this country as a solutionist, okay. And the law, the law, the law, right after it turns out what it takes to remove a sitting government. You know, apart from its rich men, it gives debt. And all of these, you understand, I'm not there. I mean, I wonder why you sit down on one situation in the system by pronouncing the answer of the governor. On the election, it is wild. It is a problem. It is a problem. All right. All right. Mr. Basita, you know, the People's Democratic Party in Crossrovesty has come out to express its dissatisfaction at the ruling or the judgment of Melody and Justice Taiwo Taiwo. And indeed, it's saying that they are going to appeal this ruling. And they said, and I quote, it's the People's Democratic Party in Crossrovesty, that the judgment of yesterday by the federal high court sitting in Abuja is yet another successful exploration. These are their words, yet another successful exploration of the depth of legal jurisprudence in uncharted territory. They're saying that they want to show us, and indeed you of the APC, that this judgment is only a step in the overall picture envisaged by their lawyers. So they said they already foresaw that this was going to happen and that they're going to go on appeal to ensure that Benedict Ayade is kicked out as governor of Crossrovesty. What do you say to this? Well, nobody stops them from testing the water. I see them as testing the water, to be sure. But then, on a familiar terrain, the issue at stake is about removing a sitting down wall, you understand? And then, in here, we say it's about defection. But then it does this for which can deflect from one party to another. With all of these prisoners put on, were there issues within the People's Democratic Party that warranted the senator of Islam? Then I added to this slide. That is a pretty sure. That is the first thing we must look at. Even at the national echelon of the party. It mattered that even when Jordan would go to the Supreme Court, and there is a subsistence to the Supreme Court judgment. And whether it's a crack in the wall of a particular party, from national down, members can go their different ways. That's actually happened. And that national center is actually defection from the PDP community. So I am saying that the PDP government wants to test the water. They have the right, they have the power to test the water. You understand? But then, how does it fair in our democracy? How does it help in different our democracy? So literally, it's a Supreme Court. They're only wasting the time of the court. You know, without prejudice to what the Supreme Court ruled and said it, I can beat my chest and say that the PDP has got, you know, had it, had it going well. To try to test the water in this perspective. The government had the right at the time to deflect. It was on a familiar ground to deflect. There were cracks in the walls of the PDP. And that was stated or warranted in defection from the PDP to the APC. So I think the PDP should stop crying words. Well, yeah, that is not, that's why I take on it. The provisions on what could constitute, you know, the departure or could permit legislators, elected platform of one party or members of executive from departing or decamping from that party are very clear. When you say there was a crack in the people's democratic party, the Constitution talks about a split. It also talks about a merger. So I don't think it talks about a crack. What crack specifically are you referring to? Yeah, when we talk about crime, we talk about crisis. The situation where the administration of the party is putting jeopardy because of the tendencies that arise. I think exactly what happened with the PDP was okay. The national down. Just like what happened when we had the new PDP in the 30s, 30s. And so people moving, just like the minister and the rest, they moved on from the new PDP. Kind of exactly what happened in the last one year or so, you know, there was such a degenerate group of, I mean degenerate structure. I wouldn't allow well-meaning politicians in the world that political destination is to remain in the PDP. And so as soon as he moved on, it was not about the PDP, it was about the well-being of the people. He had to pull out because he needed to continue the development of the aspirations of the majority of Cross River. So he needed a platform to stabilize his government and put Cross River out of the woods. Mr. Bates, yes, but I'm trying to find out from you, sir, what exactly was the crack in the party? Was it a crack in the PDP in Cross River State? Was it a crack in the PDP nationally? Because even the example you're citing, which is talking about the new PDP and the fact that a Meiji, Saaraki and Koh moved from the PDP to the APC to form that party, it was clear that there were two PDPs, you know, they went to form their own PDP. But I don't remember that happening when Governor Ayadeh moved from the APC, from the PDP to the APC. And in fact, even before Governor Maima Laburi, who was then the Ketaka Chairman of the Extraordinary Convention Planning Committee of the APC Visited Government House with Timmy Presilva and Koh, days before that, or hours before that, the PDP had visited Governor Benit Ayadeh in Kalabakh to try and persuade him to remain in the party. You're aware of that. So what are you talking about? I don't want to go into mainstream names. But if you take a closely look at the historical incident of abdication, you realize that some national leaders of the PDP, just as they came to appeal to the National Assembly not to defend. Some of them were the ones who initiated the crisis. If you remember some national leaders of the PDP who were exchanging tantrums with His Excellency at the point, running in all sorts of wind and all of that, they should have not lost their hands. This was a national official of the PDP. And that alone clearly tells the story of the crisis at the point where His Excellency was called a boy boy. He was called several names. And in the government they say he was translated in terms of the administration of the party in the state. He was national official of the party when we learned that given the right of way. So I think that, I think that you don't need, you don't need the Civil War. You don't need to become a full-blown Civil War before you're going to crack in the National Assembly. The moment you begin to have some national office talks, I think against each other. It tells the story of the crisis. Alright, but the Nigerian constitution does say specifically that there must be a split in the party. But the PDP didn't have a split. And some would argue with you that these disagreements and these internal wrongly are part of democracy. You have it in parties all over the world and in different political parties in Nigeria. But a split is when the party has factions. One faction says, I'm going my way. The other faction says, we are going our way. You understand. But we've not witnessed a split in the People's Democratic Party if ever there was since 2015. But you're talking about a crack. And Amar asked again, is this in cross-strait or nationally? You know, you talked about some national members of the party making some utterances against the governor. But this is not a split. Was there a split in the PDP, sir? I just have to re-explain this. In Zampara State, Matawale was in the middle of that crisis in a boy's state. David Umayy was visited with similar crisis in cross-strait state. That's why he's in the top of the top. Then I had him. He was meted with such an embarrassing situation that we weren't able to take him to class. There were so many cracks like that here and there. The near fact that there were tendencies that would fail people to go their separate ways. Like I said, there's a story of a crack. Let me tell you something. Let me recall that experience. The PDC had issues than what the PDP had then. But the ability for members to remain intact and not the wounds, not all the wounds and where was what kept the PDC intact? The PDP, it was things for the past. The center could no longer hold. We have a station where people become so disenchanted. The central system, they choose to go their separate ways. I mean, you can't stop them. It's a national crisis. It didn't just happen about cross-strait state. But like a nation. It happened nationally. It touched the government for its sake. It touched the government for its sake. And others. Okay. All right. I do remember that when Governor Ben Ayade gave his speech alongside the ranking members of the APC, including my Malabuni of Yobes State, Timmy Press Silver and Cole, he never mentioned the crack in the party. I want to assume that you may have been either at that meeting or you were aware of the statements by the government. He said he wanted to join hands with the center to take Nigeria higher. The government never mentioned anything like a crack. This has to do with the legislators of the party, of any party moving from that party on which part from the warned electorate to another party. The ruling or the judgment of Justice Taiwo Taiwo some days ago regarding the 20 cross-strait state lawmakers who were sucked by his court still stands. And of course, you were talking about the issue of a crack. So I'd like to just go to section 68, subsection 1G of the 1999 constitutional of the Federal Republic of Nigeria are cemented. And Mr. Basita, it states that a member of the Senate or House of Representatives shall shall vacate his seat in the House of which he is a member being a member. If being a person whose election to the House was sponsored by a political party, in this case the PDP, he becomes a member of another political party before the expiration of the period for which the House was elected. Provided that his membership of the latter political party is not as a result of a division in the political party of which he was previously a member or a merger of two or more political parties or factions by one of which he was previously sponsored. And I know you're well aware of this. So what do you expect to happen when you have been declared vacant in 18 of them in the Cross University House of Assembly and two in the House of Representatives? That's one issue I wouldn't like to comment on. The reason being that the matter is already before the appeal. Yes, because it will be sub-divided. I begin to pre-empt the decision of the appeal court. I will allow that matter to be exhausted by the appeal court before we can make comments on it. Yes. Because whatever comment I make now may start to jeopardize or make the chances of the lawmaker. I don't want to be caught in that way. I will allow the appeal court itself to handle that matter. Of course, Ben Ayadu has been accused of applying underhand tactics in dealing with the situation of the 20 lawmakers, particularly those of the Cross University of the House of Assembly which is not far from Government House by unleashing fully armed policemen to surround and block access to the House of Assembly. At a time when judicial activity is of very, very great importance. What do you say to this? It's just security, obviously. I think it is less possibility to make sure that when we have tension, when we have issues of apprehension and security breaches, he steps in to make sure he does not tension. I remember the issue of the judgment came up. You know, my attention is here and there and it was noted that there was going to be breakdown of law and order. I mean, at that point you wouldn't wait for a breakdown of law and order or you need to put security measures in place to check what ever tension has been. I think it was only thing to stop what ever would stand as a breakdown of law and order. For one to accuse him of taking sides or trying to stop a judicial process, I think such an accusation does hold water. So you are saying order the policeman to go around the house of assembly and prevent anyone from accessing it. Is what you are saying? No, no, no, no. The house as I speak to you that can have the attention. People are going to work out. At the time it happened, you are saying that Governor Ben Ayade was going to go around the place. Surround the place? Yes, you are saying that at the time it happened this was after the initial judgment that the Governor ordered these policemen there. Is what you are saying? But you are saying he did it to stop breakdown of law and order? No, you just said it sir. You just said that like I said what would you prepare? What would we have in case of high level tension? What would you do? I think But you are admitting I am not arguing that fact. You have to be accused of being the clear one. Okay, but you are admitting you are admitting right here on plus politics that the Governor indeed it was who ordered the police to go courting off the state house of assembly. But that he did it he did it to stop breakdown of law and order. That is what you are saying. That being accused of allowing security breach. Okay, but you are saying that he he was he Okay, but you are saying that he was the one who ordered the police to go do that. Yeah, but I am saying you are saying that he was the one who gave the order to the police. Since when did the police go there to do? Okay, okay. That is what I am sure. Whether killing people, whether chasing people away No! Because people around me like I say people have been assessing the police So and through. Okay. Yes, so when there is tension I think it is a place of the security of the service to stop that tension. All right. Is there any work out, anybody who has come out to say that you were attacking because of trying to assess that arena? Nobody, nobody. You've rightly said that the case regarding the sacro removal of the 20 lawmakers, 18 of them from the House of Assembly in Crossroads, it is still on, it's on appeal. What do you expect to happen if that appeal fails? Like I said, we'll make comment when the time comes. No, we're not talking about the level of subjudice, we'll make comment because we might not agree with the appeal. Alright, so someone's suspecting the governor is afraid of being impeached, that's why he's at every small, with every small ruin. That's another wild allegation. That's another found allegation. I mean, it's possible. If the PDP takes over the House, it's just a simple thing for him to be impeached. Very simple. Are you not concerned about that? It's an allegation. Again, I call it an unfounded allegation. No, it's a scenario. I mean, it's possible that Governor Ben Ayade, it's not over for him. It's not over until he can be sure that he has his APC lawmakers back. And if that doesn't happen and the PDP lawmakers get into that House, within seconds he could be impeached. Well, I don't know. All I know is that there are procedures for impeachment of the governor. There are things that beyond that, we must look at the situation of what has just happened. And I think that what you are doing regarding the deployment of the policemen is to checkmate the issue of security threats and bring down another. Okay. Mr. Basita, before we go, what are your thoughts on, because it seems a majority of Nigerians from my observation are against politicians, elective, occupying elective officers, moving from the party on whose platform they won the election to another party. They feel that they're stealing the mandate that people gave to the party that won the election. Do you think that the Nigerian Constitution should be amended to ensure that any governor who moves from the party on whose platform he or she won an election to another party should consider himself out of office? Do you think that that should be an amendment brought to the Nigerian Constitution? Let's look at our democracy. Is our democracy sufficient enough to allow people's politics of ideology? I mean, can I become a liberal Democrat and remain at that level without thinking of being a conservative or a Democrat? That is what we are looking at. And I think that gradually we are getting there. Our democracy is gradually taking shape to become a deep democracy. The moment we are able to take hold of our ideology and not being a conservative or remain at a conservative, being a progressive or remain at a progressive, the moment we get to that point, this issue of defection, the end of defection will arise. But all the same, I think that constitutionally speaking, we need to bring in a sub-landing in terms of constitutional amendments to allow people the freedom to move at this point until such a time when we are able to define ideology. Defining ideologies is not a function of the constitution. That is the prerogative of the political parties to do. If they decided not to play politics of ideology, we cannot fault that on the constitution. So are you saying that this is such an idea of punishing politicians who win an election with one party and move to the losing party? This idea of punishing them by stripping them of it is good. But it should be done when we have an ideological policy. Is that what you are saying? That is a good one, but it should only be done when we have ideological politics, the politics of ideology. Is that what you are saying, sir? All we need to do, like I said, is for a political party to stand in terms of what that is. I think that is the old talk about ideology. Where political parties are able to enforce discipline within its rules or their rules. I think members should be moving up and down. And by that, we will be engaging gradually towards the people of ideology. Okay? It depends on political parties. All right, so are you therefore agreeing with the statement of Melody and Justice Tywo Tywo, who said in his ruling that defection from a winning party to losing one is, quote, immoral, improper and condemnable? Are you agreeing with him? No, no, no, no, no. I do not. I do not seem to agree completely with the marches on that. Okay? You know, because, like I said, it would be such a wild thing to do to begin to think that Nigerian politicians are this heavy stitch of our democracy to be able to, you know, be telling us to which party to belong to remain in the political party. I am going to tell you that, well, if you carry a particular idea of the development, and you do not have your political party giving you a platform to ventilate your idea, you can move, especially when there seems to be a crisis within the party. You can move at this point. Nothing comes from moving. But I am saying that if political parties are able to enforce this issue, okay, and get their acts together, lessen the level of crisis within their own, they will be able to keep an army of followers and supporters and members who will, completely, by the actions which are given to them. Okay. All right. Mr. Baselita, thank you very much for your time. It's been a very interesting conversation with you, and I'm not surprised you were a senior special assistant to the governor on research. Congratulations on your new appointment, and we wish you all the best. Thank you, and God bless you. Thank you. That's Baselita, former publicity secretary of the All Progressives Congress in Kosovo State, and, of course, a senior special assistant to the governor on Kosovo State on research. Thank you for staying with us. We'll break now on past politics when we return with the cost of possibility of zoning in the People's Democratic Party. We'll be right back.