 Okay, we're back. We're live. I'm Jay Fadel. We're hosting the show today. This is America finding its way to complete deterioration And we are in the process of deteriorating. It seems clear now. You can disagree But we had the Roe v. Wade non-decision yesterday. That was really a Giant step on the way to deterioration here in America for the show. We have Tim Appichella. Hi Tim. Good morning And we have a special guest Eureko Jane Sugimura. Hi Jane Hi Jay and Tim. Good morning. Good morning. Jane Jane is a lawyer She's a Democrat and she has strong feelings as many people do about Roe v. Wade So I styled the show America finding its way You know after Afghanistan Because it's back to business, you know, and what do we got business when we come back from Afghanistan And these are the issues that pop up almost immediately after the evacuation is done So Tim, you know, uh Roe v. Wade the non-decision The silent decision by the way, Jane, we read it on the show yesterday. We we read it on Tim's show It only took a moment because there was nothing to read Not a thing So, you know, Tim, what does this mean? I'm going to ask Jane the same question What does that silent decision mean in terms of You know, the right of a woman to choose in this country The vision of other countries, you know, the way other countries see us now The way people see the supreme court the way people see You know, Texas and other states that are likely to follow and it's uh In its very muddy footsteps What are we going to have now after this silent decision? It's a this is a tangled question that you ask because number one is Is this a silent decision to say that the majority of these the supreme court intends to reverse the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision Or is it just their way of saying we we weren't presented a brief We weren't presented arguments for or against this decision in texas Therefore, we have nothing we have no standing in which to ask to answer it And I don't know if it's just a smug way of ignoring a very very serious The law in texas or was it their silent way of saying down the road we plan to overturn Roe v. Wade Well, some people have said this is going to lead to uh, not only the strange mechanisms of this texas law Now the law You know what people report on others and sue others for Estated penalty a liquidated penalty of ten thousand dollars and they get their attorney's fees I mean you can see that's going to motivate people and lawyers To initiate lawsuits under this thing And you know, I mean it does raise the the whole gestapo thing in germany You can you know, you can do it against your your estranged spouse somebody you don't like A somebody in business Even your parents it's tell on someone else and make money at it. It's really wonderful So and and you have to assume that other states will pick up on the same thing other republican led states Will pick up on the same thing So what what does this mean in terms of a a shift of the What do you call it the methodology the mechanism? You know of of enforcing state laws That question for jane or myself you um, what it means is Uh, you're right now. We're in a kind of a state of chaos And um, jane will make a point. I think here in the in the future About what people said before they were selected to be on the supreme court I think frankly, um states will run out as fast as they can Uh, mississippi all the many of the red states the southern states will run out and try to enact something very similar to what texas Is now living with uh because they weren't uh, they weren't They'd been given the green light to go ahead with it Um, it's very troubling and and frankly, you know, I may not have the credibility because I'm a male to really opine on this but the problem is um If you're a female and and this law will affect those who are economically disadvantaged that don't have means to travel to another state Um, this is really bad news and the worst part is this law entails that in cases of incest or rape That this this six-week period will be enforced This is unheard of this is uh, you know We're back to the dark ages as far as this kind of law is concerned as far, you know It's a horrible thing so interesting in the interim, you know in the years that it has existed Since 73, I guess the world has found a way to Legalize abortion and now the us turns around and Essentially is criminalizing it So jane, you know, doesn't this sound to you like the supreme court is Is is legislating because in 73 they found That it was a constitutional right of a woman to choose And now they're saying it's not a constitutional right of a woman to choose Or they're allowing a a state law to go through that that provides that So we have a you know, we all learned in law school about how Courts are not supposed to legislate and that's to be discouraged. Well here the supreme court is legislating. Isn't it? Well, it sure seems like it and you know, and as tim alluded to You know, I you know, I'm very disappointed in uh, you know, two justices Uh, just as comey and and cavanaugh when they were being vetted You know to be on the supreme court They were asked the question about respecting the precedent of roe v. Wade And they said yes, that was the law of the land. That was a previous decision by you know, their predecessors and they would respect that And I think the decision That you know happened yesterday shows that they're not they're not respecting precedent And I think that's wrong and I think that that was a decision that was on their plate Yesterday for the whole supreme court and I I I command the chief justice You know for for supporting that supporting past precedent of the supreme court I mean that was the law they when they were vetted. They said they would respect it They would honor they would they would not you know go against it And and and this is what we get. Well, it's a sneaky thing. It's it's it's ruling by silence But we don't you know, I think we know That chief justice robert's voted, you know, against the conservative majority Um, but we that's that's like almost rumor. I think we don't know what their decision process was We don't know what their reasoning was nothing. They didn't write an opinion They may never write an opinion if as tim suggests we have other states that will do the same thing Um, we can go through the same kind of process again Never writing an opinion, you know, what is what is interesting is the paradox that we live in There are people millions tens of millions of people That say it's my body and I have the freedom to reject a vaccine It's my choice Okay, these are the same people who say but you know, you do not have the choice Of having a child in that you don't have reproductive choice That's what they call a paradox. How do you feel about that? Well, I I I agree with you, you know, it's not right For the you know, for those people to say out of one side of their mouth You know, it's my body and I don't need to you know, I don't have to get the vaccine and to pass judgment on others You know who want to um Have this procedure done and I was I'm old enough Jay I'm old enough to remember when abortions were illegal in most of the united states and people had to go And these are rich people people who had money could go to a foreign country And get an abortion and then new york made it legal and then you had people, you know, spending money going to new york and you know, uh getting getting an abortion um, because uh, you know They didn't they made a mistake They made a mistake and you know, they wanted to have this procedure done And they didn't want to die because back then too what we had along with, you know, um People the rich people getting abortions and and the people who did not have resources couldn't get it you had women Allowing these quacks to do these abortions in back alleys with hangers and women were dying It's not from the procedure from the aftermath. And so that was another reason why this Um, why why, you know, the courts, you know, allowed this procedure to happen so that women, you know, who made a mistake Uh, could have an abortion and have it done safely And in a place, you know, where, uh, you know, they wouldn't have to worry about infection or dying And so and hawaii was right there too You know, hawaii was one of the first states that permitted abortion right here People were right flying from the non-abortion states to hawaii to have abortions. It was not spoken of You know frequently, but it was the law here And I and I'm I'm in your generation. Um, Shane and maybe maybe tim is a little younger and I'm afraid But but you know, I remember I remember the issues people, you know, who And they were, you know couples they were couples and they made a mistake She got pregnant and before you know it, uh, their lives were about to be ruined The parents would show them out of the house because you know, the the morality at the time Schools would throw them out. Um, there they wouldn't be able to get a job The whole thing would wind up in a tailspin and they were ruined So if you give them an option to go down to the docks In in brooklyn and talk to the lady with the coat hanger They would do that Because it was it's a balancing of the risks and the risk of having the child was so great That their lives would be ruined. They'd rather take the chance with the lady on the docks And when uh, new york and hawaii adopted Uh abortion statutes would allow abortion. It was a great burden lifted off our generation, wasn't it? All of a sudden we said this country is progressive. This country understands and it's insensitive And when you reverse it now, pardon me one more point. I want to make it. This is for your reaction tim Isn't anti-abortion legislation like this racist Because what what it does is it it punishes the disadvantage The people in texas who can't go to another state and get an abortion there They have to stay in texas and have the child and frequently they're black black and brown They have no money And they're stuck And and you know if if what the people, you know in the texas legislature And courts want to do Is to punish the black and brown Not a great idea do it this way But if you look forward There'll be more black and brown Involuntary children, won't they? So this is another paradox If if if you want to undermine the black and brown communities This isn't the way to do it You just make people angry And you create a you know a further impetus to greater black and brown population because they don't Have a choice. What are your thoughts? My reaction is there's so many reactions. This is such an emotional issue and it has been since 1973 And it's been an emotional issue before 1973 as jane eloquently described Um, you use the word paradox I think that's the wrong word. I'm sorry to edit you on your own show But I think the word is hypocrisy Very hypocritical of the glp to do this and I fully agree with you that Once again, the glp is so threatened about white power being diminished In the legislatures around the country and the cities governments that it's just one more example how how power have to be Implemented and and the white power legislation has to take control over Those cities those states where there's minority populations and I couldn't agree with you more about this effort I also have another reaction that is again this this texas law in includes the Uh, the allowance of incest and rape for these pregnancies to continue Uh, and I've heard the arguments from people that say well, that's okay Because it's the christian thing to do. Um, if I thought there was a separation between church and state I didn't think we were a theocracy Where these kind of laws allow this horrific Forcing a woman this horrific experience of caring to term either rape or incest And um that abortion is not allowed because it's not the christian thing to do Uh, where did we get to that point? How did we get to that point? And i'm on a roll go ahead jay next question. Yeah, thank you really good points So so jane, you know, can you look into the crystal ball? What is going to happen? The you know the probability is the supreme court is not going to change this this texas statute will be the law In texas and elsewhere where people can sue their Enemies who knows what they're even their family and friends and get an easy ten thousand dollars or Or um, you know at least make the other person miserable because they can't lose this lawsuit Even if there's no sign. There was a violation of the statute. Uh, they still have the the uh, the right To punish Anyone they want to punish What it amounts to and get attorneys fees in the process So what's what's going to happen with that? How is that going to change? um The life in america the life in the courts this the um, whatever you call it the rule of law Uh law as an equitable um moral force in our community Well, you know, I think what the the democrats all across the country and anybody else who cares This is a wake-up call. This is a time now to get involved with the government to elect people Who are going to work in their state legislatures to make sure these types of laws aren't passed And maybe to repeal the ones that are so offensive like the one that got passed in texas recently So, you know, that's what I think this is this is a wake-up call people gotta think You know have to make up their minds that they don't want to live in a society where these laws happen And they can stop it, but that means that they got to be part of the process Otherwise, they are just going to end up being the victims of the laws that do get passed by this This new majority Uh, who you know, who have this agenda that you know that they you know want to impose on everybody else Well, it may you know, you say that but it may be it may be hard to do that given the impediments that have been Created in a number of states over voting rights and suppression of voting rights Including redistricting and you know, a dozen other things And the fact that congress now we're back to business, you know post-afghanistan evacuation We're back to business. What are the prospects that congress is going to pass either of the voting right bills And if we don't have these voting rights rights bills and we have so many states adopting suppression bills It isn't so easy To go to the polls and change this as you suggest No, but what i'm saying what i'm saying is that I think a lot of a lot of people Have kind of just sat back and they let other people, you know, make their decisions for them This is a wake-up call. This is So so so, you know, the democratic party and others have to work really hard to educate these people and get them to vote If they don't want to live under this type of regime or under these laws It's up to them to stand up take action And do whatever they can to vote to elect people who are going to pass laws that are going to make it You know make access to you know voting of More open more I want that. I know you want that and tim wants that But tim, you know The democratic party is not completely together these days And I think that was uh, we we saw that in connection with the response and criticism That was showered on joe biden in connection with the evacuation And and as jane points out, you know, we need to have the democratic party together We need to have every man woman and child Support these voting rights bills in congress Um, but you know up till now essential I mean implicit in that is that they haven't done the job That we would like them to do just yet. So what are your thoughts about the democratic party? How do we Revitalize it? Do we need to revitalize it? What can be done? I think jane just gave the exact answer that this decision in texas that's allowed to remain And other states will quickly act to it. There'll be other states in no time flat about the same kind of law That will solidify the democratic party under a wedge issue And nothing like this will solidify the democrats more than this one You remember in the early 70s all through the 80s um, that was A key point to democrats being as one. Um, these kind of wedge issues and I think jane is Well, what they have done will will will turn out voters Like never seen before despite the restrictions and the new the new voting voting law restrictions You will see an increased turnout like never been seen before and that may help very much 2022 and the retainment of the house for democrats and potentially for the senate Now i'm not that all optimistic All that optimistic about 2022 or 2024 And for the moment, I think of other things. I mean for example Why doesn't joe biden or someone else in their party initiate A bill right now codify roe v way And if that takes, uh, you know the repeal or amendment of the filibuster Let's do it And you know, I think we only have a certain amount of time Um before we have another We have the opportunity To fill another seat the seat, uh, just just as briar has um You know, I think the democratic party has got to get that going don't you think and and how about a bill that would add additional seats to the court because you know, these guys are there for life And that means that for a long time the trump court will prevail With these right wing and immoral decisions so many of them um, don't you think we should uh initiate a bill to add seats and Essentially pack the court not only with obama but others I think that the um the idea was a kind of lukewarm idea For biden to add additional supreme court justices To the bench. I think I think this issue Um invigorates that concept And there'll be a lot more support for joe biden and pressure for him potentially add more more seats The same question to you jane. We're we're evacuated now from afghanistan. Here we are back back to business What can we do uh to be sure that we we don't wind up in a soup here? Uh in congress politically Well, no, I I I agree with what tim says. I think that you know this this the decision that happened, you know yesterday is is uh supports the fact that you know, uh, you know legislation can be introduced to increase the number of people who sit on the courts I think I think that there are you know, they're going to be a lot more people Who are going to be disappointed with what the supreme court did and uh, would you know would be in support of that type of initiative Okay, when I say when I say back to business again, I mean business very loosely because uh, I don't have to tell you we had a great threat to the to the country on january 6th But there are people now white supremacist groups and others surprisingly many others Who would like to have another Another party in washington On the september 18th. That's only 10 days away Is it 10 days away less than 10 days away? And uh, I think it's really important that we you know, uh remain aware of that Because we could have the same thing again the same people and you have actual congressmen And women Taking the position that they're heroes And the villains are the ones who shot that woman in the insurrection Um, the villains are those who would prosecute These 500 defendants and the 500 defendants are the true patriots This is all going to be revisited in a national tv. I'm telling you uh on september 18th So, uh, jane, you first on that. Um, how concerned are you about it? And what do you think can be done about it and in any event what's going to happen? Well, first of all, you know, I think you know, it's very disconcerting that you know the that uh people are thinking that there's going to be another Insurrection or another event of that type and that they would support Such an event. I mean, it's very disconcerting because You know and and it's it's disconcerting that you have people in congress pulling them heroes And and and supporting their position Because I think the majority of the people in this country were horrified when they saw what was going on On january 6th and and you know, they figured how could this happen in the united states And you know, I think that's that was what um was uh the view of from uh foreign countries We're watching the news that day And and and the fact that we have people in our own congress who support some of those people I mean, that's also disconcerting. It's a big divide. I don't know how you you get the country together You know, and I think that's you know, that's a problem Well, you know tim. I mean, it's incredible that um, but carthy In the house is going to punish anybody who cooperates punish quote Anybody who cooperates with the select committee investigation there? The glp doesn't want an investigation They they want to control the narrative on what happened on january 6th And and they want to be able to tell us it was just a bunch of tourists having fun on a given day the week and And you know, I I'm really troubled with that because I think that only foretells more obstacles Um more distractions from that committee It won't be easy for them to get the documents they want It won't be easy for them to get the witnesses they want And it only shows me that a number of glp congress people were involved knew about it in advance supported it Um, so you're clearly where are we on that? I mean this all bespeaks But not only of a further insurrection on september 18th, but a complete Stonewall on trying to find out what happened Again, I take issue with some of the language you use you said we're involved. They're still involved um, let me read a quick quote from representative madison cathorn 26 years old a freshman uh congressman and he said the following in making county The things that we are wanting to fight for it doesn't matter if our votes don't count Because you know if our election systems continue to be rigged and continue to be stolen Then it's going to lead to one place in its bloodshed He further said I would tell you as much as I am willing to defend our liberty at all costs There is nothing that I could dread more than having to pick up arms against my fellow american Uh, if that's not a call for insurrection and bloodshed by a congressman a federal congressman I don't know what is and nancy polosi should immediately Place him on uh sanction him Somehow some way for this kind of for this kind of rhetoric and uh, you know It's like a fire. It's catching fire and september 18th is catching on Oh chain september 18th um is long before election day And um, you know your suggestion is that democratic party go out there and vote hard Um, may not be soon enough. What's your answer to that? I don't know. I I think you know, we need to you know step up the rhetoric as well Uh and start fighting, you know for um for what this country stands for And for I think the majority of the people in this country who believe in law and order And and respect, uh, you know of others And uh, and I think we're not saying thing saying those things loud enough because it seems like all we are hearing is The republican rhetoric which is defending what happened on january 6th, which is probably the what's leading to what may happen on september 18th You know when I fashioned the title of the show, you know, um, you know, you know back to business uh, I was thinking of um Hey, um, what is congress going to do about covet? What's congress going to do about the filibuster about infrastructure which seems to be You know, put on the back burner during the evacuation What's congress going to do about voting rights? You know, it's uh, it seems like all of that is in jeopardy uh immigration reform Lots of luck Gun control forget about it. Um, you know, this is uh, that's back to business Where you expect congress is going to tackle these things And so what we've talked about today Is very distracting It's distracting in terms of the rule of law The function the effect of the supreme court the morality of the supreme court our institutions are in jeopardy Our legislative agenda joe biden His legislative agenda is in jeopardy And so my question is uh, are we tim are we going to get back to business? Or we like like covet going to be in a like a forever distraction mode and never get back to business We will get back to business and and remember congress is on you know out of session And it's true. We haven't seen any action on infrastructure or voting rights because it hasn't been in the news Uh, there's there's been no active debate in congress So when they get back from congress, I am confident minimally that they're going to take up the smaller infrastructure package the 950 billion or one one trillion dollar package. I think that sails through I also think they take up the john r lewis Voting right bill. I think they take that on because it's it's paramount that they do so and I agree with jane It's time for the democrats to start stepping up the rhetoric and jay you've heard me say this here on the show Multiple times it's time for the democrats to stop taking a soup ladle to a night fight And they've got to get going and they've got to stand on their own two hind legs and fight for that Which they think's important and it's the john r lewis bill for one and two the infrastructure this country's falling apart And uh, then they're gonna have to stand up and look at how this texas decision on abortion is going to affect them There's so many things but they can do it. They'll have to do it one thing at a time One foot in front of the other at a time, but it will get done. I believe and I think we're making forward progression Jane are you as optimistic as tim? I think you know, I I I I have to think that you know are Uh representatives in congress are going to be working on the things that tim mentioned the infrastructure bill the john lewis bill And and and others. I mean that's what they're there for and you know the fact that they you know We haven't heard a lot about what's happening in congress could be because you know They are in recess right now and so when they come back, hopefully that's what they will do and they will step up the rhetoric And address the concerns, you know, like what happened in the supreme court the other day and you and and uh, You know, what's happening in this country and you know, they need to take take take take back the country You know from from from the republican rhetoric, you know, that is supporting Uh the insurrection that occurred on january 6th Well for years tim and I have been talking about inflection points And trying to prognosticate on you know, where it goes from here And actually over the the trump administration. Well, our worst Our worst expectations were realized one by one and so I guess I would say Here's another inflection point. Let us see what happens. We are out of afghanistan There are only residual issues left I don't mean to minimize the problems of the americans. They're there and the afghans want to get out But there are only relatively speaking minimal problems left and now it's up to the administration to step up the rhetoric To make some of these ideas happen To go get joe mansion out of the Catbird seat the way he's been and to move forward and it's another inflection point Are we going to have that or are we going to have a forever distraction? Uh, and it's not clear and in this show we'll discuss that we'll connect those dots. We will not forget Where we are here today But let me get back From the 50 000 foot level to a question Because I feel that everybody who asks a question here on the show Or to have an answer and this goes back to the question of abortion It's a very interesting question and it came from a viewer. Thank you to all the viewers who send in questions Okay, here's the question jane. You're going to be first What about those men who rape? And that rape results in pregnancy Are they still required to pay child support? As they would have been in the past Jane That's an interesting question. I would think that if you know if the abortion law says that they they I mean The Texas law says that they can't have abortions. I would You know have to say that yes, they would be responsible For child support in that situation. They should be Yeah, and maybe it's a jointer So this guy starts a 10 000 ball of lawsuit against say a woman who had an abortion And she Brings in the third party the person who raped her assuming she can find him and she sues him For the child support in the same proceeding. I don't think you know, this bill was not well thought out I don't think there's any reason why she couldn't do that. And so you have a bit of a complexity, don't you Tim, what are your thoughts about this? Is this a regular family court matter? Oh to answer your question. No, it's not a family court matter. It's a criminal matter Last time I checked rape was a criminal offense. And so yeah, he's going to pay a 75 cents an hour And give half of that up for child support as he's stamping out license plates Okay, thank you. Thank you for your answers to that question And thank you to the viewer who posed that question. Let's let's close up now. Jane What are your final thoughts you want to share with the audience? well Hopefully, you know, like I said, I hope this was you know, I hope this will be a wake-up call to people out there to you know, start standing up for you know, their rights And uh, insisting that their elected officials You know act in a way to Promote, you know, civil liberties and individual freedoms rather than limit them the way you know, uh, the texas law and the supreme court recent supreme court decision Okay, yeah, there is no option for complacency Tim your thoughts You know, you would mention Discussions we've had for years about you know, where we're at Where we've been with the trump administration the breakdown of institutions the breakdown of democracy the challenge through the rule of law And I said years ago. I said the wheels of democracy will remain They'll hold and although we got close to it very close in the last year or two and certainly on January the 6th I still believe the wheels of democracy will will stay on and we'll get through these troubling times But uh, and we'll come out stronger for it. I think We'll vulcanize over it and um, I'm hopeful and I'm optimistic that that will be the case Okay, we can take a further look at your opinion right after september 18th Uh and see how you feel then tim epichella, uh, james swiggy morris Thank you so much the two of you for participating in our discussion. Aloha