 10 years since the collapse of the investment bank Lehman Brothers, which heralded really the worldwide financial crisis. So have we learnt the lessons that we need to since then or could something similar happen again? Joining me to discuss that are Fran Boyet, who is the Executive Director at Positive Money and a Director of the Board of Finance Watch. Philip Orga, a former banker and the author of The Bank That Lived a Little about Barclays were already in the crisis and Rupert Harrison, George Osborne's former Chief of Staff, now a Portfolio Manager, a Black Rock, welcome to you all. Now, Philip Orga, first of all, what was the banking collapse, the credit crunch, whatever we call it and why did it matter? Well it mattered actually, a great deal more we now know than we realised at the time. It was the time when confidence absolutely disappeared from banking markets. It dried up. We discovered when Lehman Brothers was allowed to fall by the US government that actually the global financial system is interconnected and away we went into an absolutely dizzying whirl of crisis collapse, collapse in credit in the end, the decade of austerity. It was the moment when we realised just how important finance really is. You weren't in power then, you subsequently worked with George Osborne, but do you think that you got it right in terms of response? I mean they mentioned the word austerity and the gesture towards some of the... Well I think that we should credit the immediate response in the UK. I think that the UK led the way in the response to the kind of immediate crisis. We needed to because the UK as it turned out ended up being the country that was the most exposed with the biggest banking system relative to our GDP. RBS was the biggest bank in the world at the time and the biggest bailout in history. But it was a necessity, but the UK government at the time did a good job and the senior officials involved. And the senior officials at the Treasury, many of whom were still there and the bank of England who carried out that I think deserve huge credit for that response. I think by the time that the coalition government came to power in 2010 that immediate crisis was over, but what was left was the legacy of the period of growth and the run-up to the crisis which in the UK and less so in some other countries was that growth was incredibly dependent on this financial sector that had got way out of proportion to the rest of the economy. Tax revenues had become incredibly dependent on tax revenues from the banks and when those revenues disappeared suddenly we were left with a whole model of government spending and the economy that just didn't work anymore. So I think the response then was a different one which was about reshaping the economy and I think that did work. So the UK and the US since then have grown together about the fastest in the G7. We've got low unemployment. Of course we had the eurozone crisis on the way which is a different story. In fact do you think that we have done structurally both nationally and internationally the right things to protect us from it happening again? I mean there's been some positive steps but really if we look at the regulations since the crash it's been focused on risk management and not really about how we get a banking system that serves the economy. We did a poll a few weeks ago that shows 66% of people don't trust the banks don't think they work in the interests of society and I think you know whilst in the crash itself some steps are taken that were needed it was really a failure to properly reform the banking which left this whole gap open and then obviously the public spending narrative came in and austerity which is completely ideological and not necessary and we've ended up where we are which is still with the banking systems essentially rent seeking and extracting wealth from the rest of the economy and we do need to use this 10 year anniversary to think actually you know what banking system do we want in this country? I mean there is a widespread public perception that basically the taxpayer saved the banks and then took the punishment for sorting out the banks while you know banks have carried on merrily except for the ones that went bust like Lehman. And that perception is absolutely right and I think there are elements of truth both in what Rupert said and what what Fran said the system no doubt is safer than it was individual banks like Barclays are much more solidly constructed now they have more capital less leverage liquidity is better but still what troubles me is that there's far too much credit in the world still there's more debt in the world now than there was in 2007 there is too much financial activity and global cross-border flows are six times GDP at the moment and individual banks are still too big to fail the system is too interconnected it's still a very lopsided unsafe rickety model. I agree with a lot of that I mean I think a lot has been done a lot has changed I mean banks are still too big but if you look at banking systems as a whole it's far less profitable it's far more well you know better capitalised than it was and a lot of the excesses that we saw in the run-up to the crisis have not come back and indeed in the UK we went further than I think any other country so we actually we've gotten just now in the UK the UK banks finalising the process of ring fencing so we set up the John Vickers Commission in the UK that has gone further to I think make banks you know resolvable not too big to fail than anywhere else but I just I think that the danger now is backsliding because I think the traditional cycle of these things you get a crisis for as long as the memory lives on you're unlikely to repeat the crisis but then the memory fades and I think we're already seeing that in the US and we're already seeing US government and Congress starting to roll back some of the post crisis reforms that seems a bit scary early to me but on the sort of inequality point we're still seeing we saw this week someone leaving a bank having failed and getting a 2 million nearly 2 million pound payoff people like Jamie Diamond still kind of rule the world from Davos and and you know there is this perception maybe even BlackRock where you and George Osborne work that you know people who should have been managing it have done very nicely thank you and all the rest of us I think that was absolutely true in 2008 and that was the problem they're still going on there well I think the system is very different I mean it was absolutely true in 2008 that the banks got bailed out and everybody else had to pay the price because the system that was necessary to for an alternative choice to be made by the politicians just wasn't there it wasn't we see the necessary I think that's now very I think that's very different I think we've had massive changes in the way people are paid I think we if an individual bank now got into trouble in the UK we have a system whereby taxpayers would not be on the hook I would disagree you know we've seen massive increases in wealth inequality over the last decade we've had the slowest decade of wage growth since the Napoleonic Wars the UK economy you know still has economy that is you know focused on oversized financial sector bloated financial sector and property markets and that is you know not an economy we should get the facts of inequality in the UK is now lower than it was at the time we should base the discussion on facts well I wouldn't say we've got a free market in banking we've got a monopoly we've got four big banks that run the system and that isn't a good point as far as going to jail is concerned I think only Iceland put finances and I mean should more people have got a prison in this country in America so traders who broke the law UK traders who broke the law they are serving jail time the fundamental thing that still troubles me Rupert is that banking assets in the UK are still double the size of GDP that's just too big and so I don't think we can say say confidently and securely that in the event of another failing bank we would be able to resolve it the taxpayer is still I mean I agree that the UK is still vulnerable relative to other countries because of the size of the banking system that's precisely I think the reason why the UK went further than other countries I was very careful to say it an individual bank I think if an individual bank got into trouble in the UK we do now have the systems in place I think if there was another worldwide crisis I'm not sure that as a collectively as a kind of world regulatory system we yet have the system well that's an if but just want to ask you yes or no do you think it's going to happen again here yes and we've got a lot more work to do absolutely and it'll come from an unexpected direction there will be another crisis I think it'll be different because they're always on that's cheerful thank you both thank you all very much indeed this is all up