 We have to exist in this world of interconnected ecosystems and the industrial world understands this. We have a challenge that is simply too great for any one company to address by itself. So it's about establishing ecosystems and this new field of cooperation. If you want to use a buzzword, but companies that can compete in some ways but really cooperate because that's the nature of the world we're in. When things are connected, we need to have connected ecosystems. And maybe you could kind of use the same approach for governments, for countries. We are more and more interconnected as the pandemic showed us nobody is safe until everybody is safe. And maybe it's a time where international governments need to be adopting the approach of more industries to agree on guidelines, to agree on common goals, purpose and to actually stick to them and to have teeth in the background if things don't go as they should. Royson Lenny is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Royson is an award-winning marketer webinar and podcast host, MC, public speaker, virtual event consultant, user experience business professor and journalist. His work has been translated into Chinese, Arabic and read over half a million times as senior contributor to Forbes, music editor at Phoenix Magazine and via regular contributions to The Guardian, CX Magazine and many, many others. Royson has hosted moderated and given keynote presentations at over 200 conferences in every corner of the world, including TEDx, Mobile World Congress and Six Times at South by Southwest where he is now a member of the advisory board. His background is a mix of tech and music. His first band had a UK top 30 hit and supported Depeche Mode and YouTube in the 90s while his solo music has been featured in films like Human Traffic. He is the host of the Siemens Advanta podcast and the Audio Talks podcast by Harman and has worked in a series of leading global technology firms over the past 20 years as global product manager, country manager, VP of technology, senior market development manager and chief evangelist. In his spare time, Royson keeps his lifelong passion for music alive by hosting a fortnightly radio show on Slack City Radio and many, many, many other things because he is a true polymath in doing and following his passions around the world. Welcome to the show. How are you? Oh, thank you, Mark. Great to see you, man. And, you know, thank you for the invite and the lovely introduction. That was very kind of you. Great to be here. It's so good that you can make it and find time in your busy schedule to come speak with us. Just for our listeners, we know each other. Our paths have crossed over the years at different events. You've supported me on some projects to get into South by Southwest and we know each other from the Kinnernet group and have attended events together. I believe the first time we met was 2015, 2016, maybe around that, at Avalon in France, at the Kinnernet, maybe there, and H Farm. I think we've seen each other a few times. So the last time we saw each other was at, believe it, Mobile World Congress. You were moderating and then also I had a booth four years from now within Mobile World Congress and then you were doing a gig at a beer factory, beer production. It was fabulous. Tell me, I've totally forgotten what that was. It was like a beer factory in Spain and they were hosting side talks, they're really interesting talks, but I forgot what it was called and what the name of the brewery was. Right. That might have been the Estrella de la Svecería. That's right. I'd live here but my Spanish is terrible. My wife is the one who speaks Spanish for both of us at this stage. But it was an event, I believe, it was either Mobile Sunday or IOT stars. It was IOT stars. That's right. Oh yes, fantastic. That's such a great event organized by Mark Pooch and with regular appearances from our dear friend Rob Tiffany from the Moab Foundation and Cecilia Tham who's a brilliant innovator over here and it is indeed an innovation event in a brewery where they let me DJ after I moderate and speak on stage. So I'm kind of in my happy place DJing in a brewery in front of amazing people after an IOT conference. It doesn't really get better and it's always good to see your face there. Yeah, that was a fabulous event and it was good to see you. Because you're working, you're busy moderating and stuff, we never find the time to really sit down and have a nice discussion and so even though we're in front of a large audience and listeners, we're going to try to do that to some respect here and kind of let everybody behind the scenes into our discussion. You have a fabulous history and I don't know if you know, I told you once there was one of the KinnerNet events, you were in charge of the music and they do music at the event and you kind of were compiling a playlist and some different things and I sent you an email kind of gave my suggestions a long time ago and in that mentioned that I also been involved in and I used to be a radio station DJ at KZWQ, 1550 AM. My stage name was Mark Masters. It was the rhythm of the city. You know, I was the only white guy at all, people of color station but I absolutely loved it and then I did a lot of DJing as well, a lot of video DJing and so it's funny how that passion for music just can never get out of your bones. I really wanted to ask you if you've experienced something similar to that I experienced. So I was doing the radio station DJing and then along with that I was doing DJing at different clubs and events and all different places even here in Humberg. I did the inauguration ball for Obama's inauguration for the Democratic National Committee and different fun things like that and I did this video DJing. But what I realized over the years, one, I'm not a smoker, two, I'm not a drinker. I get tired at night. I get tired late at night, although the music energizes and I just came to this realization. I love music. I love dancing. I love feeling that energy, but being around smoke and dark areas where it's loud and people who are coming up to you drunk and smoking and things and no conversations of depth and substance, I found out that I need to do it in a different way. If I want to listen to music and DJ, I need to host it during the day where we can see people where it's an event or party, kind of what you do. Did you ever run across any of that in your time? Because you are also involved as a producer and a band, Marksman, which is very successful, which I also touched upon in your intro. It's a really interesting point, and I think indeed your attitude towards sleep deprivation and health and that kind of thing. It does really evolve as you move through life, as everyone is, as we both are. And when I grew up in Dublin until I was 18, 19, and I did spend a lot of time DJing there. And that was late nights, all-nighters, etc. And then when I was in my band in the early 90s, Marksman, as you mentioned there, again, that was lots of traveling, lots of time of long, long studio sessions to begin with. We would just, if we got any studio time, we would use as much of the 24 hours as we possibly could because, oh my goodness, this was before you had laptops and stuff at home that could do the same things that recording studios can. So the time was priceless. And, you know, so kind of looking back on my life, knowing what I know about the importance of sleep, I've possibly got it completely wrong for many years. And now I really respect the value of sleep. And I read that book, that brilliant book, Why We Sleep. And I do try and get a better sleep now. I try and meditate regularly, which is an aid to all that kind of health, if you like. And, yeah, I mean, I used to DJ at clubs quite a bit. And I played in a band, of course, and we toured and we did the whole thing. But now the stuff that I do DJing is mostly at events. And, you know, for me, it's such a privilege and a pleasure to be able to contribute to the atmosphere and the soundtrack. And with something like Kinnanet, of course, that was a Sten Christian Salovier, who was really the mastermind of the whole audio experience, and I kind of contributed a bit in terms of supporting him DJing. But that's such a nice thing to be able to bring to the party, is like instead of bringing a, you know, as well as bringing a bottle of wine or a bit of food or whatever, you can bring a nice soundtrack. And I have that kind of attitude to events as well. And at a lot of the events like Mobile Sunday, IOT Stars, four years from now, for me, it's an opportunity to catch up with friends, people like yourself, who I might only see at conferences. And DJing is actually a really interesting and visible way to have a presence at an event that can help you catch up with people because they see you on stage and come up and say hi. And then we can have a quick chat and it's a nice way to catch up. But yeah, I, you know, I have the utmost of respect for professional DJs and musicians who go out and they live these challenging schedules and they deal with, you know, time zones and drunk audiences giving them abuse and all this kind of stuff. I think it's not an easy job at all. I think, you know, when you, when you witness a real DJ, like an experienced club DJ, which, you know, I'm not, but when you witness it in the wild, it's it's just a beautiful thing. And yeah, so I'm I do my radio show every couple of weeks called Geek Pie Radio on Slack City Radio on DAB in the UK and online. And I just like to put together a nice collection of music for my friends. And we share the music experience together. So, you know, like yourself, it's very different now to how it was. And I think that's for many good reasons. You do a wonderful job. So I look forward to those emails and the links so that I can listen. And I listen very often. And you do the mixes in such a way that they're also in conjunction with things that are going on in the world in many respects, whether it's a Black Lives Matters or, you know, any any current thing that's going on. There's kind of some if you listen the whole way through, you can usually find some kind of themes in there, which I really enjoy. And it's just great music. It's it's fun to listen to. And I thank you for that. Before we go too deep and into this, I want to really start with the first question and it's kind of more on a personal terms. So you you you're doing a lot of before the lockdown, before the pandemic, you were doing a lot of events, you'd probably do 100 or more events a year and traveling all around the world and speaking and moderating and doing these. Whether it's DJing or doing other things at the events, writing articles, that's kind of a it's a nice place to catch up as well. But it's also a lot of airports, a lot of airplanes and hotels and taxis and and a lot of not a lot of time to get into the depth and substance with each individual because you're kind of working, you're working and you've got to go be on stage. And then there's usually not a lot of time before and after, although I think we we we do it pretty pretty well. But you've having a breadth of experience with many different innovators and authors and great people out there. They've talked to and I hope gain some wisdom over the years of how to live a life, how to how to make that your lifestyle work for you. And then, bam, we're hit with this pandemic and the COVID. I want to know any of your experience over the years, even since your band in the nineties, Marksman, as any of that prepared you, given you a little bit of wisdom or a new operating system for life, a new lifestyle way you're living in Spain. You used to live in the UK. And and has that helped you? Whether this storm or this crazy time any better? And has there been any learnings or things where you say, boy, this is a better operating system, a little bit more resilience, working remote and doing things on the zoom and all that. One hundred percent. I mean, like many people who are concerned about the environment and concerned about the amount of time that humanity has to turn the situation around. I've, you know, I've as much as I like traveling and meeting people, you know, I am more than happy for the amount of travel I do to really close right down and to be just a smaller number of events. I mean, one of the big differences in the kind of pre lockdown times would be that I've been working for companies like technology companies that would be, you know, platform suppliers to Fortune 2000 companies and that kind of thing. So my role as an evangelist would be to travel to speak to meet people and to be that kind of, you know, onboarding, that field marketing kind of personality that can just help tell the story of the brand in the right way to the right people in a good way. And, you know, obviously all of that shut down when the pandemic arrived. All of the travel stopped, all of the events were cancelled. My diary was suddenly a long, empty tunnel with nothing in it at all. And you asked there a really interesting question, which is are there any lessons from, you know, previous phases of my life and career that would have helped with this? And I think the main thing, you know, thinking about your question would be adaptability and resiliency. And I think, you know, certainly a career in the music industry is, you know, every day there's a new surprise and it's it's not predictable. It's not it's not particularly secure. It's your dealing with a lot of volatility, personalities and, you know, the vagarities of whether your record gets playlisted or not. And it's incredibly volatile. And I think having gone through that, you know, if I was incredibly lucky, the band I was in, we had hits. We got, you know, we had Spike Jones make a video, you know, in his kind of early part of his career. It was just nuts. You know, we supported Depeche Mode and U2, which looking back is incredibly it's like a miracle more than anything. And even Sinead O'Connor. Right. Yet at 100%, the great Sinead O'Connor was very generous to us. This is before we had a record deal. She she liked our first record. We released a record called Sadefair. And it was a record that spoke about the situation in Northern Ireland. You know, we tried to keep it fairly impartial, but it was a strong record. And it was, you know, it was it was well received at the time. And it was also banned by the BBC. So it depends very much on who's listening to it. But we did try to be impartial and speak about the need for peace. And justice and Sinead liked the record. And this is sometime in 1991, 1992. I had the opportunity to meet her and she she told me she liked the record. And I said, hey, you know, if there's ever a chance of you contributing some vocals to one of our tracks, you know, we would absolutely love to have you. And she said yes. And true to her word, we got some we had a series of demo deals. One from, I think, Atlantic and the next one from Ireland. And we the island deal was basically here's five days in a studio. Do something to impress us. And so, you know, again, you know, squeezing out the full value of that 24 hours. But we were, you know, one of many bands going through the island music revolving doors. And we were in a studio called the Fallout Shelter in, I think, West London. And it's a place where Bob Marley recorded. It was a real historical moment for us. And, you know, but lots of bands do this island just has a studio. It gives bands time and says, go and impress to see what you can do. And into this very everyday scenario for island records, who should arrive? But Shanae O'Connor, who took time out of her incredible schedule in 1992, when she was, you know, one of the most famous people on the planet to come down and lay down a vocal on a record we made called Ship Ahoy. And she came down, she killed it. I can't tell you what an amazing job she did. It was just beautiful. She was amazing. And it wasn't lost on the receptionist. In island music, who suddenly made a phone call upstairs and said, you'll never guess who just walked through the door to see these guys in the Fallout Shelter. Shanae O'Connor. And so her generosity of time and spirit and it really helped us. It helped us make an amazing record that I'm very proud of today. And it helped us get a deal I'm 100 percent sure. So she was very kind to us. And she she later came and appeared with us at a very important gig early in our career when we supported the disposable heroes of her property in the Kaddish Town Forum in North London. And that was a big help as well. So she was incredibly generous to us. Yeah, I went off. I went off the. No, you're fine. You did not go off at all. That's so important. Thank you. So, yeah, I think that I mean, when I, you know, you've all known her area is one of my favorite authors. I've enjoyed many of his books. And I like the way he speaks about this need for adaptability and resiliency and it kind of resonates very much. Because I think those are, you know, technology moves so fast, the world changes so fast, we can't, you know, really pin a flag on many things. And so I think that the capability to go through adversity, to learn from it, to adapt, to keep moving and to, you know, to kind of avoid inertia is a good idea. And, you know, there was an element of that when the lockdown arrived, like everything I had planned, including all of my income was just, you know, erased. But I kind of threw myself into updating my website and kind of trying to see what's that interesting marketing tool. I wrote lots more articles for Forbes and I, you know, just kind of ramped up activity, even though it wasn't directly replacing lost income or work. And by great serendipity, a wonderful woman who I've worked with previously, Carol Campbell over at Harmon International. We had worked on an event in Munich together, the launch of a kind of luxury audio store, which is just beautiful there with some incredible audio experts. And she got in touch and said, hey, you know, we've had to cancel all our events, but, you know, we still need to provide value for our community. We want to help people get through this difficult time and we want to create a podcast. And would you be interested in working with us on this? And so that became the Audio Talks podcast, which is now, I think, Episode 29. And I've had the privilege of speaking to some of the most impressive people in audio in modern history. And that's a complete joy. So I think that's, you know, if there's a learning there for the music days, it's to, you know, to keep active, to keep creating stuff and putting it in the world and always to have kind of an open mind and and to embrace new opportunities enthusiastically because one never knows where they might lead. Yeah, you absolutely never know. But there's there's a theme that's emerging. So I thank you for kind of catching this up and showing how you almost had this. This lifestyle or this resilience that you were able to adapt because you've experienced it. You saw how those industries work, how that type of situation is. And then with your own values, you were able to weather a pretty good pivot on a dime and and really I wouldn't call it luck, but but emerge and still emerge. We're we're not out of the dark yet into a better situation. I know there are some personal things in your life that you are looking very positive for the future and lifestyle. Yeah. But there there are some hints. So one, your your band was Marksman, which if anybody kind of as a tie to Marxism and could be controversial, Depeche Mode and you two, you did some things with them, which also has some controversy there, especially you two and their songs and music. So that's telling me that you're not just an evangelist, that the things that you kind of choose and do are activism or a form of activism on what our societal frameworks are, what the hell is going on in our world. And you're kind of addressing them through your passion, through music and you're voicing not only the name of your group, but in the things and projects you do could be seen controversial or could be seen as somebody who's voicing something towards injustice or action. Am I right in that kind of in that that history or Oh, that's a it's a very nice way to look at it. Thank you for that. I mean, you know, to be to be completely fair. I mean, like in Marxman, I was my role was the music producer. So I was the guy, you know, maybe a little bit out of focus and the photographs a bit in the background. And it was my job to to kind of help create the musical backdrops and to work with other producers who we collaborated with and, you know, to kind of provide the the soundtrack. The all of the lyrics and indeed the central idea of the political angle came from the two rappers in the band, phrase D and M.C. Hollis. And they were really the driving force behind the political angles. But, you know, we we all believed in it and, you know, absolutely. I think an interesting thing has happened since the arrival of social media. And, you know, in many ways, as we saw with that film, the social dilemma and, you know, through the amazing work of folks like Douglas Rushcroft and Team Human. You know, the internet can have a very polarizing effect. It kind of does tend to, as Douglas Rushcroft said, push people into these polarizing allegiances. So are you for or against Brexit? Are you Democrat or Republican? Are you Tory or Labour? And it's all like either or either or either or. But, you know, the world is obviously not like that. It's incredibly nuanced, incredibly complex. And I think the internet can provide an amazing space for folks to discuss the important issues, to reflect what they care about. And, you know, for sure, there are certain. Activism movements that have been empowered and propelled by the access to free internet. I mean, there's always the flip side. There's the algorithms as people being pushed down, conspiratorial rabbit holes that are very bad for their mental health. And and indeed, you know, for everybody's health, when it comes to things like understanding how vaccines work and the value of them. But overall, I am hugely optimistic about the opportunity that lies in front of us in terms of using the internet to unify people, to move people forward, to share the same goals, to unite on purpose and also to come together for the important decade that we have. I mean, the the pandemic, the lockdowns have really put a pause button on so many things, but it also gives us a chance to look at, you know, where companies are with with ESG, where, you know, should more companies becoming B Corp. You know, how can individuals and companies contribute to the SDGs? I mean, these are all the most important issues in the world today. I, you know, it's yeah, I think it's an exciting time. I think it's a time that, you know, we really do have to come together as a as a species and and save ourselves from utter disaster and we don't have much time. But, you know, there's so many good things happening, I remain optimistic. That leads nicely to to my next question. And that is really, you know, we're at a juxtaposition at a historical moment in time. Again, as this is the May 25th. Today is May 27th, the date of our recording. It'll be published a little bit later, but just a few days ago, on May 25th was the 61 year anniversary of John F. Kennedy speech to Congress, where he was asking, let's put man on the moon. And there was a statement that he says before this decade is out. We're at that same position today before this decade is out. 2030, we have the Paris Agreement, we need to reach and achieve. Plus, we have we have the Sustainable Development Goals, which are basically the roadmap, the plan of action to help us achieve the Paris Agreement to stay below that 1.5 degrees of warming. And really, we're talking December 2030. So that's the that's the the month and the the year that we really have a lot to do, but it's nine years. We've got nine years left to do. And I just did a launch with a mutual friend of ours, Harold Nighthart and Future IO Institute about this before the decade is out. But it's something that all earthlings, everybody on earth needs to do. And so my question is, how do you feel about global citizenship, global citizenry and maybe you even want to tie it into globalization? How would you feel about a world without nations, borders, humanity divided amongst each other during this time of the pandemic there's been a lot of nationalism, a lot of division. What's your stance and your feeling on that? What could it possibly do for the future of humanity? Or do you think it maybe is a bad thing? I mean, some interesting truisms come to mind as you're kind of speaking there. I mean, one is that nobody is safe until everybody is safe in terms of global pandemics, in terms of vaccination programs. And, you know, to be fair, in terms of global warming, in terms of, you know, hunger, access to food, you know, safety, medicine, housing, clothing, etc. You know, all of these things are global problems and the pandemic, particularly how the global supply chains crumbled, you know, powerless in the face of the the kind of expansion of COVID-19, if you like. It shows us that we are connected in ways that we don't usually get to think about. So, you know, for all the undeniable human tragedy of the pandemic and all of the, you know, horrendous number of deaths globally, it has kind of focused our minds in some ways as to what it means to live on this planet and what do borders mean? I mean, I think there are two movements. I mean, there is a movement, as you say, towards viewing a world without borders where people are not fighting over this or that scrap of, you know, conceptual land. And I think that's a very good thing. That's very much where I would be standing. And then on the other side of things, there's the populism movement. It's kind of the manipulation of people by using fear, by using storytelling, nostalgic narratives that are ultimately meaningless, but powerful and, you know, those stories and that kind of movement towards darkness and small-mindedness. It kind of doesn't come out of a vacuum. You know, there is a reason why the UK voted the way it did, with all respect to anybody who voted anyway. You know, why America voted the way it did, you know, in the previous election, shall we say? And, you know, this stuff doesn't come out of a vacuum. The societal reasons, grievances, you know, communities have been really ignored and, you know, kind of underserved for decades in many cases. So, you know, I think these, I don't know if we'll ever get to a stage where it's just all of one and all of the other. It feels instinctively like it's a situation and two viewpoints that will always have some kind of a balancing act to perform. But, you know, I think there's a saying that travel broadens the mind. And that's something I certainly know from my own experience as a speaker, as a conference moderator, et cetera. The more you travel, the more you kind of have an ease of, you know, maybe I've just been lucky with my travels, but, you know, instinctively, it feels like the more ease you feel with folks from all over the world. And you understand that we're all the same. We don't really, you know, the amount of people who are, you know, have a kind of avaricious appetite to accumulate and consume everything are actually very small. Most people need, you know, the basic stuff, you know, we all have the same instincts to survive, to live, to thrive, to have families, to have friends, social lives, you know, food, shelter, health, et cetera, et cetera. You know, there isn't a huge amount of people who want to have crazy yachts or whatever. You know, I don't know. It's, you know, I think the more you travel, the more you see that we're all the same. And I had that, you know, one of the many people I had the honor of interviewing via my role as a senior contributor to Forbes while I was doing that, is a guy called Bernd Breiter, who is the CEO of Big City Beats and World Club Dome, which is the world's largest club. It's at a football stadium. It's nuts. And he also, he has done the highest club in the world, the fastest club in the world. He's done clubs in zero G and he also put the first DJ into space. So a guy called Luca Parmentiero, an Italian astronaut, actually did a DJ set for Bernd from space, from the ESS. So what Bernd said is that from space, there are no borders. And I think, you know, that's the consciousness I would like to see. I mean, I think the world is more complicated, as you say. It's not, it's not binary. It's not one or the other. But in terms of something that resonates with me, it's more this feeling that we are all the same pretty much. There are cultural differences, historical differences, et cetera. But, you know, I mean, look at Northern Ireland. Like if you had in the in the early 90s, if you had said that there would be peace for decades between Republicans and Unionists in Northern Ireland, it would have been a shocking controversial statement. But that's exactly what has happened. And, you know, it is a shame that we have the kind of venal narcissists still getting into power here and there. And that is putting Northern Ireland at risk, the peace process there. But if it can happen in Northern Ireland, I would like to think it can happen anywhere. Ireland holds a dear place in my heart. I think there's so so much history and stories there, not only from the UN, but from, you know, you too, to you being there, but that there are some great events that have been there as well, that I've attended over the years and zero and a lot of UN events have been there as well. A lot of delegates because of that history and that conflict in those things. It's amazing what's happened over the decades and how you're like, oh, we're we're getting close. We're getting better, you know? And I believe, as you mentioned, there is this balancing. And I don't think that it can ever be just, you know, OK, the whole planet's there. Somehow there's always going to be some controversy, some balancing to do. And if we can keep the scales at a certain level, I think that's really important when this this might be a little bit off. But when you talk about quantum computing or, you know, it's both on and off, you know, it's it's ones and zeros at the same time. And well, you're like, what, how, you know, it's it's really true that there has to be a balance to to to weigh whatever negative is. And there's always two sides to the coin. There's the extreme bad and exponential growth. And there's the extreme good that exponential growth can help us keep up to speed with our ever growing planet and innovations. And and things in a good way. And so we just have to find where that right balance is. And I love how you say that you've had the reason, main reason I asked this global citizen question is not just to get your views, but we're really in this conundrum. There are so many people in our world that don't realize that covid was a global citizen. Food is a global citizen. Species are a global citizen. Air, food, water are all global citizens. They don't adhere to nations, borders, divisions of humanity. One from another, not just in lockdown periods, but also in times of conflict or strife where we're holding each other back one from another. And I think there's there's a little bit something to be learned from that knowledge that that it's that way. But also in the decisions, you mentioned Brexit as well. So I believe that Kinnernet and Avalon at the very last day, there was this it was the day before the Brexit vote. I'm sure you remember we were in this large kind of atrium halfway indoor, outdoor room and they're making this vote on who would the Brexit go through? And there was one person in the entire room. I think he was a PM or he was somewhere in leadership in the UK. And he says, it's going to happen. And everybody else is like, no, it can't happen. I don't know how you voted if you were maybe the second vote. Or I think I remember correct. But and then the next day was just an absolute shock that had occurred. Where I'm going is really that these decisions that we make are sometimes for the moment or sometimes for the past history of suffering or conflict that we've experienced. And so we're burnt and we're like, we just don't want this to happen. And this is the reason why. And so we're going to make this decision. But in reality, that decision is not one for multiple generations in the future and for the betterment of the earth and to keep this balance. Because if you look now at the decision that was made before the pandemic during the pandemic, a lot of issues arise and bubble to the surface even more specifically for the break for the Brexit vote and that where the workers that they they did not want, the immigrant workers that they did not want there was one of the core issues of the Brexit that they were losing jobs. They didn't want people of color and immigrant workers taking their jobs in food services, basically everything from gastronomy to farming harvesters to food production. They didn't want them there to take those jobs. And now they weren't there because of the COVID. They'd been sent back. They're locked out of the country. I didn't. And I'm sorry, I may be wrong, but from the numbers. I know we're talking between 400,000 and 800,000 immigrant workers every single year at different times, go into the UK to harvest, produce food, to work there as migrant workers for the food production. They were no longer there. And all those people who voted for the COVID they were no longer there. And all those people who voted for that Brexit didn't jump into those 400, 500, 600, 800,000 jobs to fill them and say, oh, now we've got the jobs. They left. They were left vacant. And what happened is that food went to waste. The majority of that food was thrown away, went to waste, wasn't harvested. That's a travesty. And that was a decision that was made with not a lot of foresight. Will those jobs be filled? And so it can be very controversial. That's one aspect. The second aspect is four times the size of the United Kingdom. Amount of land, four times the size of land of the equivalent to the United Kingdom is used in other countries to produce food and goods for the United Kingdom. And so a decision like that, I just like wonder how how far in advance are they thinking and how how is this thought through? It's just crazy. And so I thought it was interesting that you that you think that and why even though you want this nationalist view and you're kind of there's this conflict and and issues, why wouldn't you put all those facts and those that knowledge together in that decision and balance that out? And I don't know if there's a comment that you can have to that. And it might be too controversial for you to touch. But I just, you know, I'm not sure a lot of people think those things through. Well, it's a fascinating question. Yeah. And it reminds me very much of something that a very brilliant author and talk show DJ called James O'Brien in the UK said he's been somebody who's been tirelessly speaking to people who who voted for Brexit, who are from very economically disadvantaged and kind of, you know, left behind areas, areas that have been forgotten by successive governments for decades. And he, you know, tries to speak to people in an empathetic way, but also to hold up a bit of a mirror and say, you know, are you you think you voted for this? But actually, you know, it's not how it was sold to you. And his great saying about all of this is it's a good thing to have compassion for the conned, but contempt for the con men. And it was very much this, you know, this kind of a balance of con men and the conned. So the folks who voted for Brexit, largely speaking, I would view as have been conned. They've been told the wrong wrong thing. They've been given the wrong information. They've been given very simplified, emotive, nostalgic, reductive stories that manipulate them towards a certain vote. And then the folks in charge of it, I think it's about power. And that changes on a daily basis. I don't think there was really a long term plan as we're seeing. I believe the British government has just now started advertising for a member of staff to investigate the the economic benefits of Brexit. And this is after like what? How many years after the UK's Brexit, now they employ somebody to look at the benefits. It's the lack of foresight and the sheer mendacity is staggering. Now, one of my favorite Irish journalists is a gentleman called Fintan O'Toole. And he writes very eloquently about Brexit. And he's written a series of amazing, but kind of shocking and depressing books about the complete lack of thought and the avalanche. This the sewer of lies that has come from the pro Brexit campaign. And I think a lot of the impacts of Brexit, you mentioned one of them, they are food rotting in the fields. That is, you know, absolutely an impact. And we're seeing more and more companies depart from the UK, the financial industry. You know, it's it's not completely left the UK. But a lot of it has trillions and assets have left to mainland Europe because England chose to opt out of certain multinational agreements. And it's really staggering. But Fintan O'Toole writes about this incredibly well. And it's kind of like watching a car crash in slow motion. And we're kind of seeing the wolves begin to eat themselves now. I mean, Boris Johnson, the Prime Minister of the UK, famously wrote two articles for the morning after the results of the Brexit vote were announced, one where he was 100 per cent for Europe and one where he was 100 per cent for Brexit. And, you know, he's a venal narcissistic opportunist. I mean, this is, you know, he radiates it, but he's an entertainer as well. People like him. They've seen him on the TV as a personality for years and years. And, yeah, it kind of makes one think about the nature of politics that it can be kind of hacked by, you know, narcissistic entertainers who are controversial and, you know, distracting. And, you know, you have that Steve Bannon, who's a terrible right wing individual, but he's got this saying that politics is sort of about a river of effluent to put it to put it nicely. And it's just it's all about having, you know, stuff coming all the time to distract you. And this is, you know, what Trump did. And I'm so glad he's out of office. The UK has a difficult journey ahead of it, and it breaks my heart because a lot of my friends and family are from England. It's a place that I've lived for the most of my life. Twenty seven years I spent over there. You know, I love so many people who are from England and I'm lucky in that I was born in Ireland. My children have both dual citizenship of Ireland and England. And for me to be able to come and live and work in Spain was very straightforward. And I I'm very saddened by the the whole act of self-sabotage that Brexit has become. And I think some of it is being, you know, not covered up. But the fact that we've just been through a pandemic will certainly mask a lot of the scandals that would have otherwise been on the front page because of Brexit. The UK government is in quite a fortunate place. They've got a huge majority because Boris Johnson is immensely popular and I think will remain to be, despite what renovations come out. I mean, I can't imagine what he'd have to do to become unpopular. But also the National Health Service, which is at risk also in the UK, did an incredible job of distributing the covid vaccines. And they are really the heroes of the whole story in the UK. They haven't been given support. They've been really denigrated by by the Conservative government over the past kind of 11 years. Plus, but ironically, it's their amazing heroic work that is really keeping the UK afloat. But there will be a certain time when the pandemic is over, when the results of Brexit become more and more apparent, the smoke is going to clear. And I think it's going to be an interesting time for the UK to have that moment of reckoning. And I don't think it will be a good one. I hope there is some kind of progress there soon. I would love to see it. I hope so, too. And I I'm very optimistic that that there will be. I also I also want to iterate that there is or mention that there is a lot of good happening in the United Kingdom, a lot of doubling down on sustainability, on an environment, on new agricultural practices. And just, I mean, Ireland alone, but as well as the United Kingdom are major food producers, lots of food and and lots of positive things happening there. And people are really waking up on the better practices and the better operating systems of better models for doing things more within the safe operating spaces of our planetary boundaries. And there's an extreme good. So Patrick Holden is from the United Kingdom, from part of the Sustainable Food Trust and just an amazing man who who's doing a lot. No matter how controversial Prince Charles is, he he he's done some fabulous things around regenerative farming and agriculture and and really push the food movement and changing some things around food and environment. He wrote a fabulous book that I have here. It's called Your Sumptuous Library. Yeah, it's called Harmony. It's a fabulous book. And until I read it, I actually just thought Prince Charles was really controversial to tell you the truth. But he he has this very I don't like esoteric, but almost an esoteric size. It's very kind of connected to the earth, this harmony, how how we have this connection. And I believe a lot of that comes from his. You know, who knows how much farming he's actually doing, but but but actually that experience, that touch to nature and through the life. So I think there's a lot of positive things that can really be said. But it's a there's definitely a lot of controversy and a way that that balancing act is kind of continually moving and flux for sure that that that leads nicely into kind of where I really want to go. So even before the pandemic, even before Black Lives Matter, even before the Asian racism, even before the inauguration, we've had, you know, we had even before the Brexit, we've had lots of controversy in our world with doesn't matter if it's Bolsonaro, if it's Putin, Shay, Duarte, Erdogan, Trump, whoever it is. There's a lot of controversy and kind of this emergence that we've seen in the last while of a dis-ease in our global societies, a dis-ease in our global citizens, where humanity is starting to feel like the frameworks in those countries, those nations that we live are not working for us all. This will probably be a question that I ask is, you know, how is that model working for you? You know, there's this dis-ease that the governments and those who control our nations and bring us these these rules and these models, civilization frameworks, that they're just not working for us all anymore, that there's some issues with them. And first of all, I want to ask, do you feel that as well? And then to follow that up, do you think that we're coming to an emergence of a new civilization framework, that there one maybe be a global collapse in our economic models, our models for civilization frameworks? And do you see a new civilization framework emerging? And let me give you some examples of some that we've heard of, the new Green Deal, doughnut economics, mission economics, circular economy, planetary boundaries. Trying to think if I'm missing any, you know, there's, I mean, the one that I really like is ecological economics. I like the global hectare version. I love planetary boundaries. I think that's very much in alignment with circular economy and doughnut economics and even mission economics. But what do you see on those two questions? One, collapse, how do you feel about that disease? Is there an issue? And then second, do you see something new emerging? Do you see humanity striving for kind of maybe a new model that works for us all? Short answer, yes, please. The longer answer in terms of a collapse, I don't know. I don't really have a crystal ball. I do think the systems and structures that we've used up until now are broken. They are not going to work anymore. If we keep on using the same things that we're using, the same global supply chain, the technology, the amount of food waste, all of the stuff that's been identified brilliantly by the SDGs, if we keep on doing that, we're screwed in a very short space of time. So we really have to do something else. There's no other option. You know, there are legacy interests and infrastructures and, you know, folks who are invested in doing things the whole day, but that's on the decline. And there is a new generation of, you know, the millennials, centennials, the zoomers, the Gen Zs. They have so much awareness and insight and passion about the need for urgent ecological action on a global basis. You know, Greta Thunberg being the most brilliant and globally visible example. So I think the world is more than ready for something new. How we get there is a big question mark. And I think that can depend a lot on, say, if a, you know, a kind of ecocidal populist is elected or if somebody with great awareness of the necessity for a Green New Deal is elected. And so, you know, for that reason, I'm apprehensive, but I'm also optimistic, because we have brilliant people who are like carrying the flame for this whole new potential for humanity. People like AOC, who I completely, you know, I think she's amazing, you know, she speaks so eloquently about the need for a new economic solution. I think the solutions are also out there. As with many situations, it's not like we need a completely new magical technology to do this. We don't actually need, you know, I mean, you know, Mars is an interesting thought, but I don't really go there because I think there's such an opportunity to regenerate the planet. You know, if I would like to choose any particular way forward, it would be to regenerate what we have here rather than trying to leave. You know, I think we have, there's this, I'm an advisory board member of an organization called the Moab Foundation, which was set up by our friend Rob Tiffany, who's a complete IoT guru. And he set this up basically to give NGOs and not-for-profits access to IoT technology to help them meet their sustainable development goals. And on the website, it kind of talks about how tech can affect things like food production. And this is something that a previous guest of yours was speaking about very recently, the fact that food production on the world actually exceeds demand by 20%, but a huge proportion of it is thrown away. Half of all landfills in the US is to do with food that people are not getting. So it's not necessarily a resource issue. It's a distribution issue. It's a power structure issue. It's a hoarding issue. It's an economic issue. The world is so ripe for solutions like circular economy, like donut economics, like a Green New Deal. At its absolute heart, I think has to be ecosystem restoration. And that's actually what my wife, Marie Glad, is studying. And she's a brilliant individual. And we are trying to kind of put some of our personal time and investment into doing something like this on a personal level. We're gonna move to a small off-grid place over here in Spain. We're gonna go all solar, all sustainable. We're gonna grow stuff. And I have applied for the Elon Musk Starlink satellite, which I hope is gonna arrive and keep us all connected. But yeah, I'm not sure what a collapse looks like. I would, a collapse sounds traumatic and painful, but maybe if there was some kind of rebalancing of inequality, I think that could only be a good thing. I heard somebody a while ago propose an upper ceiling on personal wealth of, I think it was some amount of millions. I mean, it's certainly more than you would ever get through in a lifetime, unless you were trying really hard. And maybe, I mean, that sounds like a crazy idea, but what if the taxation system kind of worked with that understanding that nobody is safe until we're all safe. It's not a lack of resource. It's a lack of political will. And as much as the internet is a place for inspiring information, gathering people together and communities, et cetera, it's also a place for misinformation. And I think a lot of misinformation around, you know, around even things like the UN, it's kind of, you know, there are questionable sources around information that is pushing towards the populist, towards the fear, towards the, you know, kind of the small mindedness. And, but on the flip side of that, I don't think it will take much more people to be, to kind of have a new awareness of their impact and power in the world. There's a UK filmmaker called Adam Curtis, who is just one of my favorite documentary makers. And he recently released a series and the name of it escapes me. But if you do a search for Adam Curtis documentary, BBC, it will absolutely come up. And he spoke about the fact that, you know, power structures haven't really changed in the United States, you know, regardless of who's been voted in or out of office, it's still really the same large interests that make the big decisions. And, you know, politics has said one thing and done another. And he really speaks about the power of collective ideas and collective inspiration and how we can actually change things dramatically for the better. But we sort of need to find our power again and the certain aspects of consumer society can kind of take one's mind off this profound power that every individual has to make a difference. And I think this is maybe the consciousness that we're approaching. I don't know if it will be a destruction. I think it might be an evolution. And, you know, bottom line of what I would love to see is regeneration. I think that the potential for planetary regeneration is phenomenal. You mentioned the UK and Ireland there. Those are two of the countries which are the most primed for regeneration. And I believe that things like seaweed harvesting and algae harvesting in Ireland could be one of the biggest industries for the future. You know, replacing meat with plant-based alternatives which is just progressing so well. You know, all of these changes can happen on an industrial level, on a personal level. And as you said earlier, on a philosophical level. So I'm hugely optimistic. But the optimism is kind of constrained by this time limit that we have. So we really do have to all get on board and, you know, get us to this good place by 2030. I'm so glad that you are optimistic. I'm very optimistic myself. I mean, you unpacked and mentioned, brought up a lot of important things. Al Gore always says, you know, he's a recovering politician. And then he follows it up and says, you know, political will is a renewable resource in and of itself as something that we can change and renew and change our views and understand that maybe the way we thought, the way we're doing things is not the right way or is not the best way for future generations of humanity. And so I like how you tickled upon that. And I really like this regenerative perspective and view. And I'm very much for that. So when a lot of, I get asked to speak, especially this past year and a half, a lot on regenerative regeneration, things like that. Matter of fact, Paul Hawkins coming out with a new book in September, who I absolutely loves called Regeneration, comes out in September and we'll do a podcast and we'll review that book. But it is how our planet works. That's, I mean, the original operating system, the model is one of regeneration of life and continuing. And we are part of that system. We're part of that symbiotic earth. And a lot of people don't know there is such a thing as a regenerative or economy. And there is such a model that we could use. And it really ties to ecological economics is, and anyone who talks about environment or sustainability has to first know the ins and outs of economies, the bad economies, the different economic models has to really understand economics, not just the bad ones that have failed us, the bubbles that have burst and been bailed out and on and on, but also the good models, the good economic models that we really haven't ever adapted or implemented. But they're the longest running, most successful economic model in our world is an agrarian society. It's agriculture. It's the one that has sustained us because it's the closest tie to the basic needs of humanity. That's over 12,000 years old. It's the most successful, the most longest running, the largest employer of all people of majority of people on earth, largest employer of women and girls. But it's also the most destructive on human health, human suffering, the most destructive on greenhouse gas emissions and waste, the biggest wasting, as you mentioned earlier. So we really need to understand these economic models. And that's when I say civilization frameworks, they're almost the form of an economic model, a new operating system for the earth. The reason I brought up that question was really, sometimes we as humans didn't get the education in school, or we've lost sight of big history, the big picture, and never got this big history lesson. There are more than 20 civilization frameworks that we've gone through on this planet that are no longer here anymore. Early antiquity, early Mesopotamia, Incas, Aztecs, Mayas, Greeks, the Romans, ancient China, Chinese, Persia, on and on, more than 20 civilizations frameworks. They're no longer here. The only thing that's left here is the ruins, and we go on vacation to Greece or to visit the pyramids, or wherever, and then we take a selfie with them, but we don't connect ourselves with that big history, that that was a civilization that today no longer exists. And all but two of those 20 civilization frameworks no longer exist because of ecological or environmental collapse. The other two is because of conflict and war collapse, or not war, conflict and some form of devastation collapse. And I'll tell you what, to me, why do we think that that's not going to happen? Because we have computers, we have smartphones, we can face a collapse, and we need to think about models that work out into the future for multiple generations. And I'm coming to a question for you here, but I wanna set it up so that you can answer it properly. If you take any current civilization framework or model that we currently have on our planet, whether it's in Brazil and Bolsonaro's plan for that nation, if we go to Russia and Putin's plan for that nation, if we go to the United States and it's Biden, and we go to his plan for the nation, which I really love, by the way, as moving in the right direction is still not perfect, but it's really great. Or Duarte or whoever aired one, and we take those models and we push them five years, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years into the future, and play a mind experiment. Just push those models out from how they are today out in the future. Do they get better? Do they work better? Do things improve better? How is that? Or do we already now know and face, oh, there's gonna be another economic bubble. Oh, there's gonna be another issue here coming up. We can feel it. We can sense it. Everybody's talking about it. And then when that bubble comes and it pops, what happens? We go right back to the same model that broke, right? We do a bailout, whatever, and we say, oh, that's okay, we'll just go right back to that same model until the next bubble. We don't fix it. We don't come up with a new model or something. And we hear about it, but it's all very nationalistic. It's not this global thing. And so just one last caveat to that, and then I'll give you my question. The United Nations Sustainable Development Goals and the Paris Agreement are the world's first ever global moonshot. The world's first ever global earth shot. It's a historical precedence. There is no other time in human history that 197 countries came together and agreed upon a roadmap, a plan to 2030, December 2030, to get us there to be below 1.5 degrees of warming, not only with goals, targets, and indicators on what we can do, how much money we can spend, how much work we need to do to reach that and to stay below that warming. Never has that occurred in human history. If you know anything about politicians, delegates, governments, nations, they have a hard time enough just deciding where two of them are gonna go eat lunch or a trade agreement, let alone 197 on a roadmap for the future. We're already six years into it, and we haven't done very much. We have nine years left to go. Let's get on the ball and adapt and implement that as our new operating system, our new model for the future because it is an entirely new operating system. It's an entirely new economic model and just to summarize it, very simple. It's telling the entire world, the entire universe, all humanity, we're going to raise the bar to this level and never let humanity get below this level ever again as an entire globe, no more suffering, no more hunger, no more poverty, quality education, health and well-being that we're never gonna go below these basic things for humanity ever again. We're still gonna mess up. We're still gonna fight and have conflicts and cultural issues, but one thing we all agree upon is that humanity, human beings are never gonna go below this level again, and that's how you started out this talk where you says, you know, let's be good for all in a better system. And so my question for you is, is really the burning question, money, WTF, and it's not the swear word, although I'm sure you've said that. It's what's the future or even better? What does a world that works for everyone look like for you? What a beautiful question, WTF indeed. Well, you know, there's a number of scenarios that you kind of went through there. There's the kind of populism, the Bolsonaro angle. I think the trajectory of those countries, depending on the results of the next elections, et cetera, is not a great one. You know, populist leaders tend to look for victims or scapegoats for their own mistakes, and we've seen that in many countries that have or have had populist leaders, and they just try and stir things up and get people to fight amongst each other, and you know, those guys down there, blame those guys down there, and it's terribly messy, and we see that happen a lot, and I think it's never gonna be a good outcome, and that's kind of the road of populism and where it leads because it's such a crazy, extractive, it's kind of madness, populism is madness in many ways. I think the SDGs really have to be our North Star for how the world is moving forward. I would be so happy to see teeth put on legislation or more teeth put on legislation or however you wanna capture this, but I noticed that France had introduced prison sentences for ecocide. I think that is a wonderful development. I think every country should have this in place. In the UK, I was speaking with a gentleman called Tony Fish who's a very brilliant kind of financial entrepreneur and risk analysis professional and a great thinker. He spoke about the role of managing risks in companies and the fact that boards or directors are responsible for their ESG measurements. So this is a development I would like to see. So companies will have a responsibility to report on their environmental sustainability and governance decisions, and company directors are held directly to account. And what this means is that if you're a company director and you fail on your ESG metrics and you willfully are kind of breaking this agreement that we have, you could do prison time. And I think this is wonderful. I think more countries should be doing this if they're not already. And what Tony said was very interesting about the role of diversity in helping companies and particularly boards of directors tackle ESG metrics, because what he said is that if you have a board of directors and it's all the same white guy, basically, it's very non-diverse. They're just gonna be seeing the world from the same viewpoint. But the world, as we spoke about earlier, it's not binary, it's not yes or no, it's nuanced, it's multifaceted. And the only way you get that 360 view, which is what you need is to have diverse colleagues and diversity of opinion and viewpoints involved, particularly at the board of directors. And so diversity is perhaps one of the central points about how humanity improves and moves forward. And without diversity, you're just gonna get people making the same mistakes. And I'm so heartened by increased diversity in political leaders in countries and boards of directors. I think you can't have too much diversity. Absolutely not. It's just something that will save us. In terms of the future, I would love to see the SDGs being pushed as much as possible to be frameworks around sticking to the SDGs, penalties with teeth for breaking the SDGs. We have a very limited amount of time left to fix this. We really are at the final hurdle. How we get to the next stage of how we coexist as a global family really depends very much on our ability to unite, as we've seen, exactly as you said, for the first time we've done it globally. 197, was it, governments have come together and said, we're on board with this. This is the kind of global consciousness we need to get us to the next stage of evolution. Now, there was a very interesting piece, I believe it was published on the World Economic Forum website, and it was about the kind of evolution of cooperation. We're sort of seeing this in industry at the moment where we're in this age of the internet of things and devices are becoming intelligent, they're becoming connected, they're able to self-organize and self-optimize by using AI and machine learning. The kind of nature, the changing, evolving nature of our global industrial ecosystem really necessitates that we understand that it's not about one company or one infrastructure provider or IOT provider owning everything. We have to exist in this world of interconnected ecosystems and the industrial world understands this. We have a challenge that is simply too great for any one company to address by itself. So it's about establishing ecosystems and this new field of cooperation. If you want to use a buzzword, but companies that can compete in some ways but really cooperate because that's the nature of the world we're in. When things are connected, we need to have connected ecosystems and maybe you could kind of use the same approach for governments, for countries. We are more and more interconnected as the pandemic showed us, nobody is safe until everybody is safe. And maybe it's a time where international governments need to be adopting the approach of more industries to agree on guidelines, to agree on common goals, purpose and to actually stick to them and to have teeth in the background if things don't go as they should. But I think it's an incredible time for humanity. And what the World Economic Forum article said is that there was a parallel between the evolution of, I think it was bacteria throughout early planetary history. To begin with, it was very competitive and bacteria would always fight each other and it would always be about colonizing and conquering and taking over the greatest land grab. But what actually happened is that when bacteria has expanded to a certain level and they've done all of the extractive, competitive evolutionary stage, they, I mean, not that they have a consciousness, but how bacteria survived was to learn to coexist and learn to cooperate. And it's for that reason that they didn't just destroy each other at the beginning. So I love that example. It feels like humanity has, I don't know if this is a bit of a stretch, but maybe humanity has reached a stage where we've kind of come to the end of the road in terms of extractive, competitive, nationalistic, populistic consciousness. And to survive, one way or the other, we really do have to cooperate and we have to cooperate on a global level. And this is our challenge and our opportunities and the SDGs are absolutely our North Star for this road ahead. So the answer to the question, WTF is the SDGs. The answer to the question is no one's safe until we're all safe, until everybody's safe. And then also this cooperation and collaboration and really how you tied that into microorganisms, bacteria. One of my favorite scientists in the world is Lynn Margolis. She was Carl Sagan's first wife. She was a famous, she shook the entire scientific community and it was a pinnacle for our world and she not only created the symbiotic earth and symbiosis which is all about collaboration and cooperation, but she studied these, just like Carl Sagan did the cosmos, she did the microcosmos obviously, bacteria and the beginnings, the basic elements of life are the same basic elements of life, how our earth formed and the first organisms or the first thing on our earth was really bacteria that emerged and then we crawled out of this primordial soup but it ties to something much bigger. And I don't know what kind of opinions or how much you dealt with this being from Ireland and your history with music and things. There's a lot of Neil Darwinism or Neil liberalism which basically just to surmise is natural selection, survival of the fittest, only the strong survive, severe competition. That's what Neil Darwinism, Neil liberalism is but actually that's not how our world works and Lynn Margolis said it through her study of the different types of microbes and single cells organisms that turned into nucleated cells, which is us and other species and how they work and how the functions of life work is one of symbiosis, one of a symbiotic earth of collaboration and cooperation. This is how we go far and that's how we get to that regenerative economy, regenerative model that you discussed that I discussed that we need to be in to be within the safe spaces of our planetary boundaries. And so I don't know if you have any more to add to that but I just think it's so fitting on how that's kind of coming together in our discussion. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, you summed it up really nicely there. It's, you know, I think a lot of the information that we've been fed, if you like throughout history has been fairly biased and very kind of loaded to kind of emphasize the mindset of the various industrial revolutions. And as you described there, it's not accurate. Humanity is more cooperative than it is adversarial. And it's not really as accumulative as the kind of titans of wealth might have us believe, you know? It's like we are generally, I think most people would be happy. God, what is that great survey? I think it was done in America where you kind of, there was a happiness measurement and it was, you know, what amount of money do you need to be happy? And what they found is that, you know, between, I think it was $20,000 and $80,000 as a, I think it was an individual household, I think it was individual income. That is like, that increases your happiness exponentially because you've got security, that you don't have to worry about stuff. There's great, it's, you know, my goodness, the things, the hoops you have to jump through if you're on that lower economic level, just to do regular stuff that they are, you know, very extractive, you know, ecosystems around milking poor folks for what little money they have. So kind of going up the ladder a few rungs to that round, you know, 80 grand level, that just sorts all that stuff out. And then you're kind of, you're fine, you're secure, you've got enough food and all that kind of stuff. They found that that is just the sweet spot. But then if you go over that, there's very little happiness. You know, I think there was no happiness for like the next, you know, few rungs up the ladder. And then when you get to the top, you're actually more and more unhappy. So I think people, if they were, you know, given the option of a universal basic income, they wouldn't, you know, unless they were kind of, it was a kind of tribal political belief that many people have, sadly. Most people would be very happy for all the boats to be lifted up and for them and their neighbors to have a good standard of life. And if that meant, you know, there are a few less super yachts in the world, people I think would be more than happy with that. But that's just me. I love that. And I mean, that's a whole different subject that I'd love to touch with you one day. I have another economic model that's really closely to a regenerative model that ties very close to, has a basic layer in there that's very similar to UBI, but it's a much different twist on UBI. One that can work indefinitely and is more within the calculative model of how we already calculate Earth overshoot and the models to calculate where's Earth standing today. And so in Germany, May 5th was, this month, May 5th was Earth overshoot day. So four months, five days into the year, Germany had already overshot the resource uses, unbelievable, but it's kind of a twist on that. But that's a whole different podcast. We might even need to do two hours just to talk about that. I have three last questions for you and they're really for my audience. I mean, you've had a fun life. Before I get into those questions, I just want to touch kind of maybe on a lighter note. You've always kind of taken this music and throughout your life and not only been a passion, but it's been a nice way to keep your foot on the ground and have that diversity and opens this window to a much brighter world. I cannot tell you how much I love to include music in my everyday life and what it does to me when I'm thinking of these big existential things and when I'm addressing or speaking with people, how much that is just a soothe and comfort. And I love that. You've interviewed and had a lot of people on your podcast and spoken to them over the years, but one person that I really like myself, I like his music and DJing is Carl Cox and you had him on. Just before we get into the last three questions, I just wanted to tell you, thanks for doing that, but I'm sure you could give us a list besides Sinead O'Connor, you too, and those others that you've had. How has that changed your life? How does that give you a different set of lens to just operate on when you come in contact with people who are doing that, but when you speak to them, it's like an equal and like they're just human beings, just like us all, they put their pants on one leg at a time and that they're very down to the earth and are so glad that we enjoy their music, you know? I would just like to know if there's any wisdoms there and what you've learned over the years for that before we go into the last three questions. Oh, thank you, Manuela. I'm so glad you enjoyed the podcast. Yeah, I mean, Carl Cox is a very special individual. He is 100% authentic and I first interviewed him for Forbes and wrote a profile piece about him and his kind of love for motor racing and his trajectory throughout his career, and he actually started as a builder, painter, decorator back in London, you know, back in the day and what happened is that he was going to clubs and he was just being frustrated by the lack of oomph and the fact that the DJs were not giving him what he wanted. He was on the dance floor with his friends and just not really feeling the energy. And so he said, right, what the hell, I'm gonna do this. So his drive towards DJing, you know, to kind of take a break from his work as a builder, et cetera, was to just create that energy that he wanted to feel as a punter, as a consumer, if you want, on the dance floor, as a music lover and fan. And that attitude of loving the energy and the experience just shines through him and it has every day of his career and it's what he gives to people, whether he's DJing at Tomorrowland or Burning Man or on his amazing, what was it called, Carl Cox Cabin Fever as well, where he goes into his record collection. And I, as you mentioned, I had the privilege of speaking to him for the second time for the Harmon Audio Talks podcast and that was just a joy because he's so energetic, authentic and what you see is 100% what you get and he's never lost that authenticity and that absolute passion for music. And I think if there's a lesson from chatting with Carl Cox, it's to try to hold on to that authentic passion for what you love and it could take you to some amazing places. So that's something that I see with a lot of folks that I've spoken to is that passion is that it doesn't matter what era they are, what music they do, what age they are, where the background is. I spoke to a gentleman called Bill Hanley who was one of the co-founders of Hanley Sound which is the sound company that made the enormous speaker stacks at Woodstock and he actually recorded, he was there on the mixing desk at Woodstock, he built the speakers, his company built the speakers and he did the mix that has been recorded to the album that we've probably both listened to a ton of times and he just speaks with the passion like he was doing it yesterday. And I think if you kind of keep in touch with the passion that can, it can keep your spirit youthful and I think that's one aspect to it and another aspect that I like and this is something that I've seen again and again in my own life and career is kind of having an open mind and an acceptance of the potential of serendipity and a willingness to maybe grab onto things, to build the surfboard as you're surfing so to use a phrase from the world of tech. You know, a lot of the folks I speak to, their entire careers comes back to serendipitous moment where they just thought, you know what, I'm going to just give this a try and see where it goes and there's a bit of that Buddhist concept of not necessarily being attached to the outcome of something and just kind of, you know, having an open mind, welcoming serendipity and, you know, seeing where it takes you and again and again, that's a thing that comes up in people's stories is that they follow their passion, they have an open mind, they try stuff, they step out of their comfort zone, they learn by doing, they embrace serendipity and they have a sense of humility and gratitude that is breathtaking and stunning and I think if that's a common theme in the most brilliant people I speak to is enthusiasm, openness, a willingness to embrace serendipity and that kind of humility as well. That means they are, you know, they're always at the service of their passion and, you know, I get the feeling you could ring Carl Cox at any time 24 seven and he would answer your phone with the same enthusiasm and amazing energy and attitude that you see in any place that he's performing. So I'm delighted you chose that example because he's perhaps, you know, A, one of the most successful and popular and most of DJs on the planet and B, he exemplifies that openness and that energy and he's just a brilliant man. It was great to speak to him. Well, that's why I asked you to be on my podcast on Inside Ideas is because you also have that openness and honesty and you're also available and I appreciate you for your likes and supports and following me but also in just your genuine enthusiasm that I've seen and all you do as we've seen each other around the world. You know, there are some amazing examples and I think that not everyone can really always connect the dots or see the big system view of how much music plays a role in life. I have a great colleague, Ava Karatek. She's a singer songwriter. She's also been on the podcast but she does a lot of the climate activism and moves around food and things with me as well but she's a singer songwriter. She's done five albums and this is very, very successful but throughout my entire life not only have I had a foot in one way or the other even as an amateur in the industry and DJing and music but I've seen that it's a rallying point for humanity through all diversities, all different cultures and one of the best examples I really can think of and find that I use over and over again is Bob Geldof. Bob Geldof, Band-Aid, Live Aid, amazing things that he accomplished through music to end poverty, to fix hunger through his Band-Aid and Live Aid concerts with amazing, fabulous talents, almost as big or maybe bigger than Woodstock, you know in that respect, three billion people watching on a couple continents, live and the power not only through music to get donations to make a change but then when the Bob's famous thing is when I think he was on BBC or is on the news or he's doing the live thing and he swears a lot so he swears that was a little controversial but then he picks up the phone, calls Margaret Thatcher, says, you know, I've got three billion people watching this Band-Aid, Live Aid, Live. I've got your telephone number, I'm gonna give five million of them your telephone number and they're gonna call you if you don't make some action, if you don't make a change and the power through music and coming together, unifying humanity and a mission of where we wanna go, of the future that we wanna see, ending suffering, you know, those type of things are very powerful and how they're tied to music to soothe us through those difficult times but also to celebrate in those moments where we make that achievement. Sustainability, environment and our planet are never a project that's gonna end someday, it's our life, it's a lifestyle, it will go on forever and the key and the trick is, is how do we make it go on forever and with that being said, I just wanna leave with three questions for my audience. If there was one message you could depart to our listeners as a sustainable takeaway that has the power to change their life, what would it be, your message? Oh, that's such a beautiful question and thank you for those kind words. Well, I mean, there's a couple of things coming to mind. I mean, the very obvious thing is, you know, vote with your knife and fork. You can make a huge difference by cutting down the amount of meat and fish that you eat. I'm sure many of you have watched Cowspiracy and SeaSpiracy, brilliant films and you know, I'm not a militant food activist by any stretch of the imagination. I am 100% vegetarian, having for a very long time. It's a great diet. The new food technologies that are coming out in Spain, we have something called uera, which is the best chicken that you've ever had but it's all plant-based. I think the technologies that have been brought to the global food industry in terms of food, excuse me, meat and seafood substitutes are just stunning and you know, if you've been thinking about making the switch or introducing more plant-based ingredients into your lifestyle, you know, the best time to start is, you know, decades ago but the second best time to start is absolutely now and there's so many great resources like the green kitchen, there's wonderful resources online. So that's just one thing. And I know you asked for one thing but I'm gonna squeeze in another one. No, you're fine, yeah. Thank you. So, you know, A, vote with your fork. B, the power of music is absolutely profound. I had the privilege of speaking to two very brilliant folks who are researchers and educators and professionals around the overlap between well-being, mental health and music. A lady called Afrik Lenin from Massive Music and a gentleman called Tom Middleton who was a very, very well-known DJ, artist, recording engineer. He studied kind of music in mind. He did a master's degree in that and he's now a sleep consultant. He helps people establish functional music installations that are things like music for analgesics, music for pain relief, music for wellness, music for mental health, music for navigating our crazy, busy lives. He speaks about the sonic environment of our cities as being inherently stressful because the sense of hearing that we have is something that we're born with. It's actually one of the very first senses to arrive with us so we can hear things in the womb and it's actually one of the last senses to leave us which is quite poignant. And what he says is that our sense of hearing has evolved over millions of years of evolution and it's acted as everything from a defense mechanism so we can hear the tiger in the bushes or we could hear the threat coming away. But there is a kind of certain level of audio activity that has existed with us across millennia that we're very attuned to and that's like standing in the countryside and that's what it sounds like and that's what we're used to and that's what the kind of the base level of kind of human piece is. But in the city, walking around as traffic, there's airplanes, there's stuff coming out of everywhere, this is much more than we're used to and so it kind of unconsciously stresses us out because we are used to a lower level of decibels in terms of the ambient noise. And so what he's developed and he's working with Africa, excuse me, he's working with Africa over at Massive Music on this is a series of kind of audio tools that you can listen to, you can put on some headphones. He recommends going to the countryside and kind of doing some sound meditation and but if you can't get to the countryside, put on some good headphones or any headphones and you can immerse yourself in a kind of audio soundscape. He does a lot of stuff with the app Cam and I think that what the research is showing really conclusively is that music has a medicinal effect when we're entering an era of medical grade music to quote Steve Davis. And if music isn't a big factor in your life, if audio isn't a big factor in your life, this is something that can be good for your mental and physical health for all aspects of your wellbeing. If you understand how music can be an aid to good sleep, to good energy levels, to good kind of, you're kind of bandwidth mentally and how you handle stressful situations. I think I agree with Tom Middleton that he says we're kind of approaching a new age of functional music where we finally understand the power of music as it compares very favorably to certain pharmaceutical and pharmacological treatments. Music can be amazing to treat Alzheimer's, to treat all kinds of different diseases. So I think we're approaching a golden age of the understanding of the power of music. And I think it can help all of us in these stressful times. We have, as you've said, we have a big job to do. We have a big job to do together as a global family and we need all the help we can get and music can be a great help for that. What should young innovators in your field be thinking about if they're looking for ways to make a real impact? Oh, wow, that's an amazing question. Thank you. Well, I think the main thing would be it kind of comes back to the anecdote about Carl Cox and the folks that I've spoken to. It's sort of have an openness of mind but also a sense of purpose and North Star. The SDGs I think are the best North Star that I've seen for humanity where we are right now. And amazing things can happen with cross-functional collaboration to use a UX term. So generally what I found when I've worked for major corporates and in the corporate environment is that the really good decisions happen when people come together from the different silos within an industry or a company. And that's the magic of conferences, of panels, of UX workshops and that kind of thing. You simply get things from a diverse range of viewpoints, the Tony Fish perspective that we spoke about earlier that you won't get from being in the room of exactly the same kind of people or just working by yourself, et cetera, et cetera. The same applies to many things but in terms of making an impact, actually supercharge the impact you need a diverse range of perspectives. And I think collaborating with very diverse people can only benefit the thing that you're trying to do. Then there's a question mark, particularly after this age of COVID is where do you meet these diverse people? We've all been in lockdown. I think the world is gonna open up. I hope we're not gonna do as much business travel as we previously did. I hope we're gonna do more remote working but I think communities of interest are gonna, more and more of them are gonna appear on virtual platforms. That's very encouraging. There's gonna be more events that are hybrid events that are a mixture of physical and virtual. And I would also say don't kind of... Yeah, what was that? Do you know what? I'm gonna share another anecdote. When I was moving from the world of music when the band I was in, we kind of broke up the singers went their different ways and that was kind of it. And I got a gig in a proper company with hundreds of people and it was a very new thing for me. I'd just been working in music for my whole life up to that point and this was a big deal. And I asked a friend of mine, I said, how should I approach this? And he said, well, the interesting thing about most companies is that there's three layers. There's a layer at the bottom, which is folks who are coming in, they're hungry, they're open minded, they're adventurous, they've got lots of energy and they just wanna get things done. And then there's a layer of people at the top and in a healthy company, they're open minded, they're adventurous, they wanna get things done, they've got lots of energy, they're very positive, very forward looking, very open, et cetera. And then there's a middle layer, which in some companies can be quite an unhealthy there, which is kind of middle management and it's process and I mean, there's many ways of looking at it, but his anecdote was helpful for me as a young professional just getting into the business because what I saw then, and he said basically the middle layer, a lot of the time we'll just try to stop this layer, the bottom layer, speak into the top layer. And I found that a very helpful, whether it's true for every company or not, it's probably not, but it was a very helpful thing to keep in mind just that the folks at the top, they might absolutely have the same mindset, enthusiasm, openness as you do. So, you know, you can reach out directly to the top if you can, you can be very, you know, be prepared, know what you want, know what you're trying to do, but you shouldn't necessarily feel like certain people are out of bounds. And I think it helps to be ambitious, to keep that passion, that openness and who knows where it will take you. But I wish you luck, whatever you do and please do feel free to connect with me anywhere you can find me online. I'm very open to connecting and helping people if they can. What have you experienced or learned in your professional journey so far that you would have loved to know from the start? Yeah, great question. Three things come to mind, meditation, yoga therapy. Those are three things that I have got familiar with in my later years that, you know, once I experienced them, I thought, oh man, if I'd known about any of this stuff, back in my 20s, that would have been amazing. That would have helped with all these things and, you know, I have no regrets. I have a very fortunate life. I have a very fortunate life. If anything was different, I wouldn't be who I am, where I am and don't, you know, have the world view or experience that I have. So that's all good. But if there was something that I would recommend to folks starting off, make yourself familiar with yoga. There's a wonderful lady called Adrienne Mischler who does, she's based in Austin, Texas. She's a wonderful yoga teacher and she has a 30 day yoga challenge and this is like a free introduction to yoga and anybody can pick it up, any age can do it. It's hatha yoga. So it's listening to your body. Don't do anything that's painful. Poco a poco, if it takes you years, that's fine. It's all good. Just try and do a little bit. Meditation, I use transcendental meditation myself. I'm a huge fan of that, of the kind of technical technique. It's like a cheat code for life. You can just put yourself into a relaxed state. It's wonderful. And in terms of therapy, that was something I didn't really consider until my, you know, late 40s. And that was, I don't know, not like 40s, late 30s, beg your pardon. And I just found that to be completely fascinating, very informative. It kind of helps you navigate your way in the world. It helps you understand patterns. If there are things that you're doing that you find puzzling or you find strange that they keep on coming up in your life. Therapy can sort of, I did something called cognitive behavioral therapy and that I found to be amazing in terms of unlocking how you understand yourself and giving you some tools and techniques really and some knowledge, some self-awareness to not keep doing the same stuff over again if it's something that's unhealthy or it's something that you don't want to do. So those would be my three tips to investigate. I mean, the thing about yoga and meditation that it can be largely free, you know, therapy costs some money. So it's, you know, it's kind of, you have to kind of balance where you put that in your life, but it can be incredibly informative and empowering. Olson, thank you so much for your time and letting us inside of your wonderful ideas and your mind. It's been a sure pleasure. That's all I have for you today and it's been my honor and I thank you very much. I hope we can do a catch up again next year or very soon because we could go a lot deeper. There's a lot we can talk about. Mark, thank you so much for the invitation. I really appreciate it. It's always good to catch up with you and I'm very honored to be on the podcast. I listen to it religiously. I love the work that you're doing and keep fighting the good fight. You know, you're inspiring millions of people to do the right thing and long may it continue. We all need to be on this journey together. Thank you very much. Have a wonderful day. Bye-bye. Thank you.