 Welcome back to the original gangsters podcast. I'm Jimmy Bucciolato here in studio with my intrepid colleague Scott Bernstein Hey now, and we've got Benny the engineer in house and Thanks for listening just want to remind everyone please subscribe to our Channel either on Spotify or Apple podcast Google podcast. However, you consume it. Please subscribe to our YouTube channel Please spread the word Please you know keep on sending us messages and comments and we try to address them as fast as we can and also I just want to remind especially our newer audience members who found us through YouTube We have about what 20 30 episodes on YouTube something like that, but we've been doing this podcast for what four years So there's a lot of other content out there. That's just audio And so please go back and dig into the archives either on Spotify or Apple. Whatever And we have a lot of cool episodes episodes we did with a really big guest Michael Francise George young yet George young in studio George Christy George Christy, right? So just a lot of other topics interesting things that I think you may find interesting So please check us out and please spread the word. You had a really cool Sopranos episode with Bobby Frenaro Yeah, right Portico gene Ponte Corvo. Yeah, great Yeah, we had an exclusive interview with big Pete from the outlaws our outlaw biker episodes have been popular lately So please check that out Today, it's just going to be Bernie and I in studio But we've got some fun topics and we're going to start off with before we get into our major topic Which will be the Detroit Mafia's involvement in the international heroin trade. We just like to go over the poll results on YouTube It's a fun way to interact with our audience members and to engage with our audience members So there are three polls in the last few weeks that we haven't discussed yet And I'll I'll run through them and we'll see what what Scott and Benny think I'll go over the results One I posted a few weeks ago was which Irish gangster is the most compelling and the five choices were Danny Green who was a Cleveland Labor racketeer Jimmy Burke who was an Irish gangster associated with the Lucchese crime family Jimmy Coonan who was associated with the Westies That was what Hell's Kitchen west side of New York Gang Frank Sheeran, which the movie the Irishman was made about him and then whitey bulger So the results that came in overwhelmingly Jimmy Burke Isn't the lead over 50% Danny Green comes up second with around 20% then what he bulged are just below that Jimmy Coonan at 8% and then Frank Sheeran just 2% so I don't know Ben. You might not be as familiar with these Irish gangsters, but but Scott. What do you think about these? I will say that Jimmy Burke his reputation and the mythology around Jimmy Burke was accelerated augmented complimented by the fact that Robert De Niro played you in an iconic movie so You don't even have to say Jimmy Burke you just say Jimmy the gent and everybody knows who you're talking about in the movies His name is Jimmy the gent Conway, but everybody knew he was talking about Jimmy Burke So when you're immortalized on the silver screen the way that Jimmy Burke was And there's been movies about whitey bulger. There's been movies about Danny Green, but not to the extent the way that Goodfellas resonated with not just you know the masses in pop culture, but with the you know the cinematic community You know to me it's the I've said it on here before I mean it's the the perfect movie From from beginning to end. I wouldn't change a thing. I don't know if there are even the Godfathers I can pick a part here, you know little nips and tucks that I might have made right But so I just think being a part of that movie Goodfellas, you know with the Robert De Niro character is just you know, it's it's seared in people's heads Right, so to me that like it gives you like if this was a race, you know, like the Jimmy Burke Choice or the election or what have you Jimmy if we were if we had him at the starting blocks Just having Robert De Niro having played you in a movie He has an advance gives you you know gives you a couple leg head start in my opinion Who would you pick though for you? I would have picked Danny Green to me The story of Danny Green in the 70s in Cleveland and there's a pretty good movie called to kill the Irishman Which was actually shot in Detroit, but yeah takes place in Cleveland with Ray Stevenson Playing Danny Green. It's good cast Christopher Walken is in it Val Kilmer's in it. I I think the story itself is probably better than the film, but the film Does it justice and you know for for people that don't know, you know, Danny Green was an Irish mobster labor racketeer in The 70s that decided to challenge the Italian mafia for you know, the rackets in Cleveland and Went toe-to-toe with these guys for a good two to three years had them on the ropes Eventually murdered and yeah had them on the ropes to the point where the Cleveland bosses were going to New York and asking for help, right? and I just you know the the balls this guy had and I have such a month such such tremendous amount of respect for anybody in any field that has ambition and Maybe even what could be looked at as outsized Expectations for themselves and then do and then they do everything in their power to make that happen And whether it be sports or in the business world or in what we study Criminology and and I'm not saying Danny Green was a great human being or anything But he definitely had this idea that in the late 70s an Irish mob organization could unseat an Italian group that had been there for a hundred years and he almost you know He came close to doing it. Yeah, and if I if I recall he initially he was on good terms with the Italian And then he started to think well, why should I settle for this secondary? Roll well, then there was a there was a chain over there was a change in leadership in the Cleveland mafia another thing that ignited this Irish Italian mob war. He was Danny Green was was everything was copacetic when John Scalish was the boss and Danny Green was very close to Scalish is under boss Frankie Brancato and When Scalish died and Jack White like of Oley came into power Angela Nardo Leo lips a Mosher he came into power They did not get along with Danny Green and Danny Green had had in mind had a level of respect For for Scalish that he did not have For the group that came in in 1976, which was like of Oley and Mosher. I didn't some and worked There even some Italian guys who also didn't like the leadership and actually sided with yeah Not Danny Green was a civil war. Yeah, John Nardi who was an Italian labor racketeer Whose family had been in La Cosa Mosher, but he wasn't a maid guy But was kind of the equivalent of a maid guy and he aligned with Danny Green, right? Yeah, and he was killed and then Danny Green his Mentor in the mob in addition to Frankie Brancato was a Jewish racketeer named Shondor Burns who Christopher Walkham plays in the movie and eventually Shondor sides with the Italians against him and he kills Shondor right blows him up and a lot of car bombs Yeah bombing campaign. Yeah, and then Danny Green himself was killed in a car bomb. I believe in fall of 77 Yeah, so I I mean I would pick um, I guess I would pick I know this is the obvious choice and maybe it's cliche, but I would pick Whitey bulger and I obviously was a piece of shit and he was a you know a rat and all that But I'm not again. I'm not judging this based on virtue They're all bad guys, but I just think you know Boston the whole thing Southie. It's compelling. It's compelling It's just like Hoffa. I think it's this story will never die exactly talking about whitey boulder a hundred years from now right, right, he's like Billy the Kid or Jesse James. Yes, right and There's a reason to put it right. Yeah, good way to put it So I would pick him but if I had to pick a second person Danny Green could be there But I don't know I like Jimmy Coonan I think the Westies are sometimes overlooked and underappreciated I think they were aligned with the Gambino's and they had a lot of juice and they were pretty violent and Shout out to the movie state of grace where Ed Harris plays a character loosely based on Jimmy Coonan One of the more underrated gangster movies I think that's ever been put out Sean Penn Gary Oldman Robin Wright Penn Sean Penn plays an undercover FBI agent that had grown up with these Irish mobsters and he had left town and gone and been a Cop in Boston and then comes back and pretends like he's been kicked off the force when in realities, right going undercover into the Irish Mafia New York and I just Gary Oldman gives an outstanding performance And it's the movie that Sean Penn met his wife on which is no longer his wife, but Robin Wright. I didn't realize that So I would say and I'm not surprised that Frank Sheeran is here at the bottom because I put him in there because I mean They made Scorsese he made a fucking movie about the guy. I should at least See what people think but I think at least you know We've talked about it on our channel and I know some people disagree with that But we've made the case that that's that story is not only inaccurate at times But vastly overstated how significant he was So I'm not surprised to see Frank Sheeran at the bottom of this list because I think more people are finding out I think it would be interesting, you know, he wasn't as big of a deal as I Think it would be into Gabba Gull. I think it would be interesting brought in some Gabba Gull I Think we can move on the final point I'll make is we were talking off air Benny was was talking about it and I will be interesting to see I think how the Irishman ages how that film ages and And how that movie looks five years from now or ten years from now And I think that will in some ways decide how Frank Sheeran is viewed Yes, historically as we always see received land We know we see, you know history a lot through a lens of pop culture And that's why we always try to insert it into a lot of our conversations But I think it's valid here and both what we're talking about Jimmy Burke and Robert De Niro his character in the movie helping You know enhance or amplify the Jimmy Jimmy the Dent Burke the real-life persona and then I think with Sheeran I think I'm interested from a personal point of view what I'm gonna think when I sit down Maybe even in a couple weeks from now because it's been two years now removed from the Irishman. I haven't watched it Yeah, since it came out. I watched it and I should do I should do a rewatch whether it be this you know in 2022 or or you know in the new year, but I'm interested to see how that how that movie ages. Yeah, that's a good. It's a good point So the second example here is of these recently deceased close-in Ostra heavyweights Who is the most compelling so I've picked five big names people that have died within the last roughly four or five years Frank Callie who was in the Gambino crime family Anthony Casso gas pipe who was under boss at one point in the Lucchese crime family John no-nose de Fronzo who was the boss of the Chicago outfit Sonny Francise who was it wasn't the boss But he was certainly a high-ranking member of the Colombo crime family and then speaking of that Carmine Persico the snake was the fifth choice and the numbers broke out The the biggest lead here Sonny Francise almost 50% so it again another pole. That's kind of one-sided here you have Frank Callie and Carmine Persico tied for second at almost 20% gas pipe comes in fourth with 13% and then de Fronzo Last 6% I have a feeling that's part of it is just Chicago versus for New York guys He just the Chicago guy might just didn't have really a chance But I tried to mix it up so it wasn't all in New York guys So what do you think who would you I mean I would have picked the Chicago guy. Yeah, but again, I'm biased my research is is very Outside of the five families the majority of my research and my expertise not to say that there's anything wrong with studying the five families Because that's where it's where it all began and the next there's so there's so many people that that Research and study and report on the five families. I wanted to make a name for myself you know going after the the smaller organizations and and and getting those things all buttoned up from a from a research and a Expert, you know expert perspective. So, you know, Chicago is a is a is an area that I've written quite a lot about I lived in Chicago for a decade I worked in the Illinois Attorney General's office work in some mob cases when no-nose de Fronzo was the boss and I just find his There's so many things about no-nose de Fronzo That's a lot of that we know and there's a lot of stuff I think that we don't know for sure and that's what makes him Such a riveting character, especially when you think about the guy lived until I think he died in 2018 or 19 But I believe we recorded a whole episode on yeah I believe pretty strongly that he was a confidential informant and had used his ties With the FBI to stay in power and that's how he averted arrest in the family secrets case in 2005 so I just find that you know the politics involved in his rise to power and his ability to stay in power for You know almost 30 years 30 years roughly In an era where most mob bosses are are gone in a couple two or three years they get picked up If you last five to ten years you're you're doing really well for yourself and and no-nose lasted 30 plus Yeah, as soon as you're the boss you're it's not long usually before you're you're taking out So out of the New York guys, who would you pick so who would be a second? Okay, sunny Francies really? Okay? I think we've done this before on the show and you play the what-if game and You know sunny Francies could have easily become a godfather and I think If if Francies doesn't get caught up in that bank robbery case in the late 60s He becomes boss of the Columbus in the 1970s instead of junior Perceco and He was you know that rare trifecta. We always talk about loved feared respected. Yeah an earner and a hitter Yeah, right and Sunny Francies just checked all those boxes and I think if he became boss of the Columbus in the 70s You wouldn't have had any of the acrimony that you had under Perceco with The big war in the 90s and it just I think it's a fascinating. What if so yeah, that's good That's good point. I would pick you know my research. I'm very much interested in transatlantic Networks between the the Italian American mafia and the Sicilian mafia. So for me, it's not even close It's Frankie boy Cali for me. He's he's one of the to me most compelling I mean that that's exactly the kind of guy that I like to research and I'm interested in he was related to the Cherry Hill Gambino's the the Inzerillos in in in Palermo and And you know, he's considered a zip even though he was actually born Became a boss at a really young age right of a New York crime family Another guy that you know, we're the trifecta there, you know, I didn't know many people that didn't respect the guy Yes, I didn't know many people that didn't think he was a not just a great leader, but someone that Was a man of the people Yes, he got along with the rank and file. He got along with the the og's he got along with the bg's. Yeah, and He was a guy that confidence right and I think if there's a You know if I was doing my my pluses and minuses here I give him a minus for something that he had no control over and that minus would be, you know, his demise Was semi was somewhat anti-climactic It I probably would be more interesting or more interested if we if we were now, you know Three four years removed from when he got killed and it had been a big power play within the Gambino crime family Which a lot of people thought at first You know the Sicilians had taken over and some of the old Gotti regime was coming out of prison I took him out in the in the 2010s and that but that's not what happened at all It it came down to one of his nieces was dating a mentally ill individual who saw Killing Frankie boy Cali is as some like, you know words from God or or Yeah, voices in his head So yeah, he yeah, he's the only one on the list who died from unnatural causes He was he was murdered it turns out it wasn't at least at least as of right now It seems like it had nothing to do with with organized crime But but I think in a lot of ways his leadership helped stabilize the Gambino's oh post Gotti Mm-hmm, and so I would pick him and then junior with junior Persico. I mean I don't have to This is not something we need to believe with a point with but whether you liked him or hated him the fact is junior Persico was a Godfather of one of the five families for roughly 45 years and and 42 of them Were in prison and he was able to keep control of that family from behind bars for almost a half century Yeah, it the last mob dynasty that really exists is that persico colombo mob dynasty And I think there's some merit to that from a socio, you know academic viewpoint to see that he even though he was a Very polarizing yeah someone that there was a lightning rod you either were fiercely loyal to him Or you thought he was you know the devil incarnate. Yeah, I mean one thing that's interesting about those Colombo guys Francis and persico on this list is they were also this sort of bridge between the real old timers like Profachi and and Gallo and Colombo and then the the guys were around now and that that also adds a kind of I think mystique to You know their legacies and it should be noted that in sunny Francis's book that was released right after he passed He did a interview with SJ petty and Newsweek who turned that into a book He was pretty adamant at the end of his life that Carmine Perceco was a Cooperator and that had been feeding the information had been feeding the government information against him Right. Yeah, right to keep him, you know from ever reaching a point where he could take over as boss Yeah, we did an episode on that too and then that's pretty controversial because obviously not everyone There's all sorts of debate about misinterpreting that the actual documentation Not not not regardless of what he thinks that the documentation there either in that set but that's separate There was a documentation that daily I don't remember. I don't remember the New York I think was the post the post had published and there were some questions about where that stemmed from but I think sunny's Conversation with petty had come before that document was was that's good. Yeah, he was kind of Riffing yes on on his thoughts on on people that were Forces pulling against him. Yes, there were quite a few Yes, and that that's interesting because my understanding is always politically Francies was aligned with Perceco But you know behind the scenes that doesn't mean that doesn't mean very much in this world So the last poll that we did this one Benny might want to jump in on to is what is your favorite drug lord gangster film? So I picked five, you know classics from the last whatever 40 years So your five choices were American gangster, which was with Denzel Washington about Frank Lucas Blow which we mentioned Georgie on earlier. We had him in studio who was connected to the Medellin cartel Carlitos way which was a totally fictional movie, but starring Al Pacino Sean Penn New Jack City, which was Wesley Snipes. That was a great cast to about African-American drug lord in New York City some of it based on Detroit in the Chambers brothers and then Scarface The lat we all know Scarface Al Pacino about Cuban drug lords in Miami So here are the numbers again a one-sided poll Scarface over 50% Then you got American gangster and blow around 15% each Carlitos way 11% in New Jack City at the bottom at 5% so Go ahead Ben jump in then Scott and then well Roberto put in his two cents I don't know if he's coming back into the studio, but we'll talk about his two cents here, too What what do you think Ben? Well, how would you rank this? Oh, sorry, I didn't Scarface is culturally famous, but you know People have said it all the time at the time. It was a flop. Yeah, it's good That was a movie that we were talking about how movie ages. Yeah That movie was not considered a classic at all until about ten years later. Yeah, good point good points So you would say better you would pick American gangster or what would you what would you pick? For your number one of the best film. Yeah, your favorite drug lord gangster film my favorite I Would probably have to go Probably with blow with blow. Okay, Ben's going with blow bad-ass gangster though of those is Franklin Lucas At least the way Denzel portrays right? That's that's that's that's your favorite character not necessarily your favorite film, but your favorite character Yeah, no his performance was amazing. Yeah, he's great and I've told the story. I think I Think I've told the story on the pod and I told it to Ben off-air You know my love affair with them with the movie American gangster has been a rocky road It's like a marriage that starts off really I Lots of fighting and acrimony and then ends up You know on a beach in the Bahamas living happily ever after I did not like that movie at first because I was someone that knew the history and that movie does not stick to to the history and kind of creates its own history and kind of creates its own at 1970s Harlem drug world where Frank Lucas You know The skeletal sketch of Frank Lucas Definitely that was accurate But when you filled in the blanks With the screen with the screenwriting and the and you're coloring it up as a film There's a lot of creative liberties taken so at first I had an issue with that and it blinded my ability to like the movie But now I consider it one of my all-time favorites The more I the more I get removed from the movie the more I love it whenever it's on television. I have to watch it Such a mesmerizing performance by Denzel and just I just have to tell myself that The Frank Lucas that he's playing Is not the real Frank Lucas. It's like a yes another Alternate reality version of Frank Lucas, right? Yeah, I mean because he Denzel the way I viewed it I love the film too is that he basically is like this black Michael Corleone And I don't think the real Frank Lucas was not sophisticated at all, right? And he was conspicuous. The point is Denzel plays it as like understated, uh, you know off the radar on the savvy sophisticated crafty clever slick Right and Frank Lucas was not slick. Yeah, Frank Lucas was a country bumpkin Yeah, and that's why they called their group the country boys. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Nicky Barnes Who they in the movie they portray almost in a minstrel manner? It almost was offensive the way they portray the nicky barns character by cuba goody jr. He was the Sophisticated savvy one. Yes, not not out there acting a fool the way they made him appear to be in that movie Yeah, I mean and also like just uh, again the history was was off like Frank Lucas There's obviously truth that he established connections in Asia to bypass the Italians But he never had this like exclusive autonomy In fact, even at the very end Frank Lucas owed the Italians a lot of money Yeah, and and the Italians were quite possibly going to kill him at one point So, uh, there's some mixture, but I still I I agree with you both. I it's a great character. It's a great film So what would you pick is your first would be Carlitos way Carlitos probably the a sleeper pick I love Scarface and there's nothing, you know to me Scarface is like The way that goodfellows is to mob movies scarfaces to drug dealer movies. It's the pinnacle. It's at the top of the mountain peak and and Hard to top even though as we were we mentioned it wasn't a movie that was embraced right away It was really in The fact that drug dealers themselves embraced it Made the movie more popular. Yes the the Every day every day Audience the everyday consumers, especially the hip-hop community. Yeah, thanks to rap. I should say, but I Carlitos way to me It's so underrated More of a slow burn It's not as fast-paced. There's some definitely some fast-paced scenes But it's it's classic noir It's it's a movie that was made in the 90s but maybe could have been made in the 40s with the way that the The filmmaking was and I think that was intentional to Palma who Directed Scarface and also directed Carly those way and there's a number of characters that are or actors that play characters in both movies that's right and I just I just love Carly those way. I think it's it's Pacino's most underappreciated Gangster role. Yeah, it's not going to be my choice But if I one of my favorite lines ever in a in a crime or gangster film is Carlito saying you think you're like me. I run with made made guys connected guys go snatch a purse. Who do you run? It's just one of my favorite scenes and and lines and and there's so many other good ones and their shan pen is great Um, I would pick and we'll see what Roberto thinks or two I would pick again, maybe it's cliche Maybe it's lame, but I'm going with Scarface to me. It just so it's so big. It's so it's so larger than life There's so many great scenes so many great lines the cultural impact of it It's up there with the godfather films and uh, and I just love it not so much the gangster stuff But if you're going by drugs I'm going by the movie that you see the most white powder in so that's going to be scarface. It's going to be blow Um, and that's what does it for me Yeah, I would I mean I love all five of these movies. I think all of us agree. New jack city is a movie. I think that Has gotten lost it in regards to The the millennials Yes, I think they'll watch scarface. They'll watch good fellas Uh, new jack city is a little bit more dated. It's very specific to that time period fashion 1990 1991 Classic and the black Yeah, but it's not considered a classic overall. I think that's true. Yeah, and it should it should be I think Before I make change. Yeah, there's a great line. Yeah, there's great lines. But I love west It's it's great, but I I think you're right the the fashion and the um sound track Gives it a dated kind of feel whereas the other movies for whatever reason just didn't it's immersed in new jack swing music It's why it's called. Yeah, which we like I see a more accurate movie would be like paid in full. Do you think well paid in full was Oh, it was like a real story. It's a real story. Yeah, I mean the real story of Of uh of rich porter and uh alpo and and az faizon uh New jack city. I mean we have a special connection to it being from detroit new jack city the screenplay is based Or inspired from taken from an article written in the village voice Which was written by uh barry michael cooper who was the writer director writer Of new jack city. He had come to detroit in 1987 and embedded for I think three or four weeks with the chamber's brothers and wrote the the seminal Article in the village voice called new jack city eats its young And in that story that was optioned for a film new jack city wasn't new york city New jack city was detroit detroit. Yes, and the chambers brothers and bj chambers and larry chambers Became a composite for nino brown right and they had the uh the entire hotel and all that was there was based on the carter which was the uh the project that the Cash money brothers take over in new jack city was inspired by the fact that the chambers took over the broadmoor Which was not a project. It was a uh a historic apartment building right and they just bum rushed that Yeah, it was all place and went uh went to all the apartments and basically said yeah, we're moving in here You're either gonna Ride with us or we're gonna kick you out. Yeah, and it was either they were drug dens prostit like a brothel It was like a all it was a nice a vice and pouring of 24 hours a day Right, and that was that was based on on that actual situation. So well, it's a good segue We're talking about favorite favorite drug lord gangster films. We'll spend the next half an hour or so Uh talking about actual the actual drug trade and something that scott and I are very interested in as researchers And that's the the italian mafia in detroit and their involvement in in the global heroin trade It's something that I think Is underappreciated and even now I sometimes we get comments on I thought you know that the detroit guys were buying from new york And we make the argument that new york was buying from detroit. It's actually the other way around So we'll unpack this a little bit and go through some of the names and and we we actually co-wrote a chapter together That you can find in detroit true crime chronicles where we it's a it's a lengthy chapter But I I um I hope people find it interesting where we we really document a lot of this And I would say it goes back to a lot of it is post world war two at least we can start I mean we know the italians were dealing opium even before that but in terms of the detroit mafia being major players We'll focus on the the post world war two era and and I think The way we'll frame this is the reason why they were such significant players is three major factors And then we'll break down each factor number one is The detroit guys were very much connected to mafiosi in sicily which gave them an advantage over some of the other crime families Second you're near an international border Windsor anytime you're near an international border that will help your crime organization in terms of trafficking elicit And it gives you a leg up on the competition around the country Yes, 100 drugs were especially at that point before they were coming up Going from you know, mexico Into the southwest and and the west coast and then eventually making its way to the midwest Back then when when drugs were coming in from europe, it was coming in the opposite direction Yes, so he's either was coming through the Windsor border the border in western new york Or the border, uh, you know in the pacific northwest right so that gave us a significant advantage I say us the detroit were in detroit. We weren't in the crime family though and uh, the third is The connection that the detroit guys had to the teamsters and jimmy hoffa also played a significant role in terms of distribution Yeah, and transportation of narcotics and no, I don't throw in a fourth Reason or I don't know what's the chicken and what's the egg here, but The fact that the detroit dons Had marital connections At the at the forefront of the five families in new york great point. Yeah Makes it so Those business relationships are much easier to cultivate Joe Zerilli and black bill toko who were the founding fathers of the mafia in detroit married their respective Sons to The daughters of joe perfachi the one of the original Uh dons of the five families He was the kind of the archetype for down core leon and the godfather He was the real olive oil king to this day Calvita olive oil, uh is If not the most popular commercial olive oil Brand there is it's one of the top two or three right and that was started by the perfachi family in the early 20th century And through bootlegging endeavors joe perfachi and the detroit guys Became friendly and then in the 19 late 1940s early 1950s Uh, they cemented Those business relationships by bringing together their families In in these semi-arranged marriages where tony zerilli who would become the underboss joe zerilli's son married rosalie perfachi and who was kind of the prototype for conny core leon And then tony toko jack toko's baby son married Carmella who they call milley perfachi and both of the perfachi sisters moved to detroit in the early 1950s, so You know the colombo crime family joe perfachi would at that time was the perfachi crime family Yes, and their first cousin was married to bill banana banana right the network It's really important that networking. So there was a lot of traveling between detroit and new york just For that family's sake. Yeah, which then dovetailed in in the business And in the legal activity. Yeah, and not just with with drugs, but everything labor racketeering and all sorts of things So some of the significant names will point out and and you know scott will help describe these guys too But I would start at least in our chapter We focus on three different groups the the partinico group The the windsor group and the later on the bed element a group. So at the partinico group We we there was a whole crew of guys, but we focused on we'll just in the interest of time the three big guys papa john pretziola jimmy quasarano and frankie three fingers copula traditi and I think that those are the three guys at the nexus of the heroin trade In not only not only detroit, but but globally. Yeah Globally, so you want to tell us? I mean, I think I think copula was made on both sides of the ocean. Yeah yeah jimmy quasarano who was the protégé of papa john a papa john Was was was the the elder statesman? I mean, maybe not. I guess if we're talking about the 20s and 30s, he was on his way up But by the mid 20th century Into the 1670s. He was the the kind of the patriarch of the american dope trade. Yes, and very the papa john Was joes areally joes areally's conciliary Mm-hmm The the counselor the advisor to the to the godfather of the detroit mafia from the 30s until he died in 1979 so you're talking about a an administrator in mafia activities from The fdr administration all the way up through a jimmy carter Before ronald reagan takes over very respected guy. I'm both again both sides of the atlantic Yeah, and so by the way all three of these guys. I believe quasarano too, but I know pretziola and copula I'll have to fact check if quasarano was there, but I know pretziola and copula were both at the infamous 1957 Meeting in palermo with luck with luchiano with luchiano And joe banano where they basically organized the international heroin trade so not every crime family in the united states Had a representante at the that meeting but detroit did specifically So quasarano though was pretziola's But at that through the 30s and 40s 50s. Yeah, he was a bodyguard driver right hand Liaison proxy. Yeah, he quasarano might have been there. I can't remember. I'd have to go back and check But either way so right away. There's evidence that that pretziola is a significant factor here And so and tell people that jimmy quasarano Which which is a major enhancement to this business relationship of narcotics He's married to a godfather's daughter. Yes in sicily. Yes. Vito vitale Don vito. Yeah, who is a member of the castellamare? family there and So jimmy quasarano jimmy quasarano marries his daughter right and his and by the way you can see how this this labyrinth One of vitale's other daughters the sister is married to That element there right so it's all gonna it's all you'll need a score sheet again to tie this all together So they've got the connections to sicily Two things really important one as you point out jimmy q's married to vito vitale's daughter But also copula gets deported in what 48 or 49 something like that Which which by the way it seems possible that actually pretziola and quasarano actually arranged that because they Wanted to get him out the picture just get him out of the picture They viewed it as better if he was just a drug supplier in in sicily rather than uh, you know active in detroit But you know that that's kind of interesting but anyhow, so copula gets deported either way and um, he he basically is one of the most important Individuals in organizing the heroin trade and this is really an interesting case study in globalization before people were even talking about globalization Uh at that at that time most of the opium is coming from the middle east Places like iran turkey today. It's almost all coming from mexico, but back then it was coming from the middle east and that opium would make its way to lebanese smugglers And the lebanese smugglers could speak french because it used to be a french colony the lebanese smugglers Sell the opium to gangsters and marseilles. They can speak french And the mars the gangsters and marseilles Sell the raw opium to the sicilian mafia and they've got the labs and the chemists that right They can process it and package it and then smuggle it right to the united states Yeah, so they can manufacture or manufacture process it into heroin street heroin And and sell it to the italian american crime families Who then they sell it to howlaw bikers black organized crime groups? And so it's really this fascinating example of underworld globalization before people were even talking about and they were Actively putting out a We talked about it in the jimmy hoffa thing Then in the jimmy hoffa conspiracy quite a bit They were putting out a disinformation campaign The mafia was going out of their way to tell everyone. Oh, yeah, we don't do it You know, we we we do the type of uh crime that you'd be proud of You know, we give people loans. They can't go to the bank for loans. Yeah, let people book protection provide protection Yeah, we protect the little guy against the big guy Someone that wants to lay out, you know, someone who's uh has a sporting manner can come and lay a bet with us Someone that wants a woman's company for the evening can come find us But we don't we don't go to the you know, we don't we don't go to the the scourge of the of the universe and and spread Spread in narcotics when in fact They were at the epicenter of spreading narcotics They just wanted to they don't give lip service to this notion Maybe thinking that the more they said it the more You know the the legislators and the police officers and the federal governments might believe it Yeah, yeah, and and they and they were smart enough to recognize that If they think people think they're involved in gambling and just like you see in the godfather these harmless vices People might not make a big deal, but you start saying that they're global drug dealers now all of a sudden people might not think I'm not sure if these are good guys in the community and they knew what and they knew what and especially detroit guys They invented the concept of buffers and insulating yourself But you know with the global narcotics trade when it when it tied into the italians There were you know 10 pieces of the puzzle that you had to put together before you got to the head of the snake Yes, yes, which was smart. I mean guys like papa john pretziola Um weren't touching no heroin. They weren't anywhere in the presence of heroin, but they were making fortunes on heroin no, they they were arranging things financing things and um Actually pretziola and quesarano quesarano were tried in absentia in in italy for and convicted of everyone trafficking But they never never never by the united states no the united states government Or when i say the government would never never charge them with drug crimes, right? Didn't extradite them papa john pretziola never did any prison time. They actually found It's kind of interesting. I think one of the raids in italy. They found like, um, you know All the like papa john's address and things like that So they were connected to those guys in in sicily copula was was arranging that and another significant figure in in this network A guy from partinico who was copula's sort of rival Was salvator vitali. This gets very confusing not to be confused with the banano salvatale moscino's brother-in-law But they're cousins. Yeah, and not to be confused with veto vitali from costa la madre If you're not italian, you might not know this but vitali is a very common. Yeah very common The salvatale that we're talking about was actually papa john's Son-in-law, uh, no the the um, it's an indirect relationship because through the matrangas Through the matrangas, which is another networking thing. We didn't we didn't mention yet, but um, the reason why I think this is interesting is salvatale was was helping arrange some of this this narco trafficking and He ends up at odds with the pretziola quasarano copula Faction triple triple however you want to think of that and um There's there's salvatale actually Threatens to kill pretziola and quasarano and he even says he'll kill quasarano's family in partinico So they're arranging a number of sit-downs Including a sit-down that involved joe zirilli and they're trying he went to san diego because that's where vitali was Was holed up at was in san diego and they're trying to negotiate this and the Lure salvatale To detroit meeting in detroit where right the toko brothers. Yes. Yes Who let's be very clear. They're they're both uh, have passed black jack toko and and his brother tony t aka tawn um You know, they were uh, well jack was convicted of a racketeering. Uh, tony was indicted in racketeering but not convicted never have been uh, Tied in any criminal litigation to homicides no but in Testimony in front of the uh us senate Jack toko was tied to a murder in 1947 Of a of a greek gambler in detroit named guzzard dramalus and i also believe In that uh, same testimony I believe was the mclellan hearings that The i think it was george edwards who was the head of the michigan state police went in front of The committee and they were asked about black bill toko and he referenced that black bill toko's sons Were the last people seen with salvatel Yes before saiva before salvatel disappeared disappeared, right? So he comes to this meeting they surveilled them with the with the toko's I think they go to winzer and that's when they lost the trail of and and the tally was never seen from We've never seen and but everyone knew in the underworld that that pritziola and claus ron had him had him Yeah, and the toko brothers at that point would have been in their early 30s. Maybe late Early 30s. Yeah, they were in young late 20s early 30s. Yeah, and and so the the the the connection is I believe salvatel. He was married to a metranga and Some of the metranga one of the metrangers was married to papa john's right So that one of the metrangas So his brother-in-law Was the son-in-law of papa john. Yeah, so he's he's going to pritziola and claus ron was saying We're salvateli like what happened they and they told him like mind your own fucking business Stop poking around stop stop asking and it's a really interesting story. You can read our chapter I mean well, we don't have to go over everything but at one point. There's a robbery at a hotel drug They uh, they they uh rob Guy of his drugs claus ron pritziola. And so it's a very interesting story leading up to to the disappearance of a guy who was an underboss in the partinico Familiar and then his cousin Was salvatore a good-looking sal vitali who was the underboss of the bananos in new york And uh cooperated and was the at one time the right-hand man and brother-in-law of dromacino Yeah, so I admit it gets sort of confusing But another reason why so you have you have coppola has these ties in sicily to these gangsters and marseilles in middle eastern gangsters coppola is also very politically connected. He's he's he's actually Uh as friends in the vatican. He has friends in the senate in in in roam in italy So he's very politically connected possibly Our friend el profit you can watch some of the videos he's done There are a lot of allegations that frank coppola was also had connections to american counterintelligence Which is probably true And so he's a well connected guy perfectly positioned to to transport these these narcotics to to pritziola and quasarano and they're all they're all paisan from from partinico and But another key connection here Is coppola quasarano and pritziola's connection to the teams So we're talking about distribution And one of the questions that I get asked the most Um when I go do talks and and when I'm doing my detroit mafia talk I obviously devote quite a bit of time to jimmy hoffa and people are just forever fascinated by the uh the story of jimmy hoffa The rise and fall the disappearance But one of the first things people always ask me is well How did jimmy hoffa get linked into the detroit mafia? Well, you can trace it directly back to frankie three fingers coppola who uh was really his his entry point into uh not just You know affiliation and introduction to mobsters that could you know help his career, but also his entry point into the You know into the fast track up the teamsters Uh elevator to the penthouse Yeah, so remember frank coppola frankie coppola is here. He's in detroit before he gets deported and he's here for a while This was in the 30s right and um, so This is his is and and the the person who introduces hoffa to him is is sylvia Pagano aka sylvia paris Who was uh a paramour if you will? Yeah, yeah, uh an ingenue amuse Someone that a lot of mafia figures not just in detroit, but in other major cities Kind of uh, you know kind of fall head over heels for and She was on the arm of a lot of wise guys eventually came to detroit and was having romantic dalyances with frankie three fingers coppola as well as jimmy hoffa Some of the jackalones got involved in that and uh her son was chuckiel brian Who was one of the last people allegedly uh to have seen? Uh jimmy hoffa. Yeah, it was jimmy hoffa surrogate son adopted son, right? So again if you're connecting the dots chuckiel brian's baptismal godfather is frankie coppola, right? And then his surrogate father is jimmy hoffa and his surrogate father number two was tony jack alone, right? So so through these connections Um coppola gets deported so he can but now he can you know, he can ship harrow into the united states But pretziola and quasarano now Are positioned within the teamsters. They have like their, um, you know official positions, right? And they have and they got they have they control locals. Yes. They can hoffa would give out Locals formally for they had rank. They had rank actual titles. That wasn't like behind the scenes on the town Love I think a very very very under appreciated Uh aspect of jimmy hoffa and the teamsters jimmy hoffa more so than the teamsters, but jimmy hoffa was a giant narcotics trafficker that never had to Account for his narcotics trafficking and that gets people always talk about him as a gangster as well as a labor racketeer Uh, but he was someone that was benefiting greatly Yes from narcotics trafficking and allowing those teamster trucks to be putting Cocaine heroin marijuana pills and and moving across the country kind of unfettered. Yeah distribution that career You had a national distribution network in place copious amounts of narcotics and this is where These connections to new york come into play because a lot of the new york families also have Ownership at least whether it's on paper or not of trucking industry and labor racketeering connections to the teamsters Sanitation they're right. They're meeting the detroit guys And so in a lot of cases the detroit guys were supplying the new york families Especially big john ormento who was known as a as a notorious heroin trafficker He was a captain in the lukewarm family But I think what what sometimes is overlooked is who was who were his suppliers? He was getting supplied by the detroit guys and a lot of that was being worked out by angelo maley who had those teamsters time or uh, Uh, at that point it was might have been vince maley who was well vince maley's tithe of the teamsters was through the steel Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, right, but he but he was I think it was vince who was the one who was introducing ormento Uh and johnny deal and those guys i think that was angelo wasn't angelo that would have been in like They've been like the fifties for okay. Okay. Yeah, I'd have to fact check on that but um, so there these There's a network in place between the detroit guys Sicily and and new york and now you have a national distribution network in place and By pretzio and quasarano having formal position in the teamsters. It was basically cover the providing cover for them Uh, and if you don't think hoffa was getting kickbacks on Well, which is another thing that I think that people should know about what played into the fallout between hoffa and the mafia Yes, it was the mafia wanted him You know He was too difficult to puff it too difficult to puff it frank fit simons who was hoffa's vice president And successor was a lot more malleable but part of that Dynamic of fit simons being more quote-unquote malleable was fit simons being willing to take Less money in kickbacks. Yes, right for for a variety of things that hoffa was taking kickbacks for Yes, right. Yeah, so that that plays a factor ultimately in his disappearance as well so The other we got a little bit of time left the other two groups Um that we wrote about in the chapter not only the partinical group They're particularly compelling because of the ties to sicily and the ties to hoffa But we talked about the windsor crew that's very significant because a lot of this heroine Is coming through montreal and it's making its way south through windsor So you have an international border here and the windsor crew at least back then I don't know about what's going on now I really don't but but for decades windsor was considered part of detroit It belonged to the toko's are really crying from there. So all the vice that was go all the rackets that were going on You had a nephew in that crew. Yes, that's right. Rocco. Yeah, Rocco. Right. So um Some of the significant names we talk about uh for a while Salvatore, um, or i'm sorry josephi Cock-eyed joe Was the was the capo regime in windsor And then if you want to go way back, we'll have danie wan again at some point danie wan I like to talk about the real old-time stuff early 1900s 20s 30s His brother was the boss salvatore singing sam calinati when opera singing mob don Yes, who uh another one of these kind of what ifs Uh, you know, he was he died at 35 of pneumonia. Yeah in 1930 It would have been interesting to see because he was one of these guys that was really able to Uh He was a diplomat Yes, and was someone that was able to get along with a lot of different factions and a lot of people respected him and he could Make everyone kind of play nice at least with each other. No when he dies. That's when the blood that's when the crosstown Right, so what it's always interesting to me to always play the what if game It was you know, what if singing sam doesn't catch pneumonia And you know singing sam is around through the 60s and 70s. Does this is a really toko Regime never really take form. It's a great great question. And what is and what is his brother? Yeah, two brothers actually. Yeah, jimmy. Yeah, vincenzo You know, what does that mean for them if they're If sam was was the godfather. Yeah, right. They may have been even higher and more status than they already did kakai joe's Partner or his co-coppo was a no-frio minato. No, they're called. No. No. Yeah, no. No minato was a guy that And both minato and and calamati get deported. Yes in the 60s minato had been born in sicily Had come to detroit fleeing a murder charge When minato went back to sicily, he was only he was deported there in 63 62 He only lasted a month or so the person's family that he had killed. Yeah killed him. Yeah, they the Long memories In like the 20s and they're avenging it in the 60s Yeah, because if you look at his fbi files, they don't think his assassination had anything to do with the drug trafficking or detroit stuff They think it was that vendetta that that and minato and minato was someone talking about How drugs were being smuggled and laundered and uh Was someone that started a trend in detroit? with bowling alleys Oh, right minato Bought a bunch of bowling alleys and I think he owned at one point like 15 bowling alley Yeah, and then pretziola ended up and they would use the bowling alleys to launder the drug money And I think in some in some cases distribute the drug money. Yes, or sorry distribute the narcotics Yeah, so that he's an interesting guy too. He was catalanades, uh captain. I think Minot was he married to kakai joe's sister or yeah, I think they were they were brother Yeah, and he was a big labor racketeer before he got deported Um, and yeah, he's actually one of those guys who starts off on the other side He starts off as like with perone is like a union buster, right? And then before Hoffa Works out this thing where no, we're actually going labor is going to work with me pro labor We're going to be pro labor right before that. He was one of those union union busters So they they first get deported to Windsor, right? Or were they were the I can't remember the time Were they just in Windsor to set up business or I think they might have been deported to I can't remember the calamari manato. Yeah I don't know if they just thought they were Operating pretty freely between maybe Windsor and Detroit. Maybe we're I'd ship back to yeah I'd have to go back and look at our ship to Europe look at our Notes and the the piece that we wrote but eventually they are deported to And then Italy Nick Ciccini who they called canada nick or canadian nick kind of replaced them as You know capo regime his His reign was pretty short and then my research tells me up until the Early 80s from the late 60s or the early 80s a guy named Monkey Sam I'm blanking on the last name right now Misaracha Sam Misaracha they called Monkey Sam and Monkey Sam was at Jack Toko's 1979 inauguration where the FBI was surveilling the uh Ceremony and then pulled everybody over when they were leaving And they were surprised to find this Monkey Sam Monkey Sam Misaracha who had really been off the radar For the Detroit FBI for quite a bit He had been around in like the 30s and 40s, but then they hadn't and then finally they from Uh informants one of them being Jack Toko's driver They found out that Sam Misaracha at that point was in charge of he was the Windsor and that's why he was at the inauguration Oh, that's interesting. He died a couple years later. I think he died in 84 83 84 and at that point my research tells me Tony Powell took over took over He wasn't in Windsor. He was a downriver capo in Detroit, but he was in charge of whatever and if you're not from this area That's very close to Windsor any anywhere Detroit downriver anywhere very very close to to Windsor. I and I don't know post 9 11 I think that situation becomes more challenging because of homeland security and things and Tony Powell died a couple years ago Stomach cancer the FBI when he died the FBI Um, they didn't say this publicly, but the FBI Has made a decision kind of within the Hoffa Investigation That their official opinion of Tony Powell is that Tony Powell was the trigger man On the Hoffa murder. Yeah, so he was he was definitely significant It was something that that they didn't come to that conclusion until the 2010s right and based on some Things that I'm not even sure where they came from and who was talking to them But the FBI has come to the conclusion now that Tony pal Zolo Was the shooter on the Tony pal was caught on surveillance saying that meeting it that they put Hoffa in the sausage Right, which I think he was bullshitting them. Yeah, whoever he was talking to with But that doesn't mean he didn't have anything to do with yeah, he still might have been involved in the actual murder so another interesting angle here though is catalanati Once he gets deported to Italy It doesn't take long before he's busted on narcotics charge and he starts working Right the fbn flips him which before the dea was federal bureau of narcotics And they flip him and we know the agent well who was actually the station chief there at the time And they flip catalanati and feed him into the marseille the the so-called french connection You've seen the movie the french connection feed him into that And the deal is catalanati Says I won't give up any italians But I'll give up the course again And I'll give up corrupt RCMP and you know corrupt police and Windsor and mantra and he did yeah, they ended up busting between FBN and the canadian law enforcement. They busted a lot of guys. That reminds me. I'm I apologize on all subjects slightly, but it reminded me of the same way they took down The the pizza connection through our good friend frank panessa. Yes the legendary undercover DEA agent was he nailed some Italians like guys that were part of the scarfo crew and They got him into an interrogation room and said, you know You need to get a you can get a get out of jail free card if you just give up your bosses and they said We're not going to give up the scar foes where we won't give up the philadelphia mobsters We'll give you the Sicilian mobsters. No problem. We got we got no loyalty to them Yeah, they did and they did and that ended up eventually years later. Yeah breaking up the pizza connection Yeah, that's how yeah, that's how he was able to get introduced to those guys and so Another interesting part about this is the fbn agent That we talked to and interviewed for this chapter and we've we've talked to him about other things is He was in a precarious position because there were a lot of corrupt french Officials and they were protecting the corset corsican heroine, you know, of course can the sicily pipeline and so he couldn't trust His french the pierce that he was working with in in that area So he had to be very careful He thought he thought at one point that the french been compromised Yeah, that they were that they were going to put a contract out on him the the um members of the um french intelligence I can't think of the you know, there's like in england. There's m mi 5 mi 6 whatever the french version is I can't remember uh off the top of my head, but so if you read our chapter There's a lot of intrigue Not just like gangster stuff, but a lot of political intrigue And then the last group will mention since you mentioned the pizza connection Is the pizza connection through the battle a mental battle a man. Yeah, so they those guys Most of the pizza connection. I get it. We think of you know, new york sicily Obviously that's at the nexus of it Even philadelphia, but there's this overlooked midwestern part of it Well, gaitano betelmente who was the top of the the pyramid of the pizza connection the sicilian don Had lived in detroit. Yeah in the 40s. He was at that 57 meeting too. Yeah in palermo Had lived in detroit. So he had ties to detroit and then his brother A manual a rough mani. Yeah became a capo And ran all of southern michigan the minrow area minrow temperance bedford adrian milan that whole southern michigan area was controlled by don tano's brother and then don tano's nephew Cesare battlemente was a A made member of the detroit mafia and was a big shot in the construction Business until he died in the in the mid 80s, but don tano Died in prison from his bust in in the pizza connection, but a lot of that I don't want to say a lot, but a portion Of that case even though like you said it's considered a new york case A big portion of that case or at least a sizable portion Was was based here in detroit and then in southern michigan out of uh pizza parlors down there Yeah, and so he had a brother but also nephews and cousins who were who were detroit guys And and the more you look into it, you can read our chapter that plays into wins or two cesare battlemente and those guys were also importing heroin from smuggling heroin over from from wins or And he had other nephews like in in illinois and in wisconsin or his nephew's nephew down In southern michigan was uh sam avola whose dad Sam avola had been a big bootleger Running with the with the zirilli A toko group in the 20s right so so again you have this overlap intermarriage and Battlemente they were from chinesi Which historically is very important in detroit not so much now But before the toko's zirillis established their hegemony There were these different factions partinico castellamare Chinesi and eventually after the cross town mob war that the the families from teresini the vitalis Yeah, this is a different vitali family. We've talked about 20 vitalis here Right, but peter and paul vitali who were the main detroit mob vitalis. Yes, uh, at least in the majority of the 20th century Yeah Capos they ran the greek town district in detroit Uh, they were chinesi. Yeah and blackbill And jozerily and machine gun peak carato Brought them kind of underneath their banner. Yeah, because those families were all from teresini Is it really carato toko mosheri you can go on and on balmarito? um dana and uh, but at one point The chinesi the chinesi guys were In charge their their ancestor bloody john jovani vitali. Yep was the boss not for long Because toning dana made sure made sure that didn't last long But so the my overall point is even though we're talking about pizza connection in the 70s and 80s These ties between chinesi and detroit go back along a long way I think that's fascinating like the the trans again. That's my primary research interest the transatlantic connection And as we're wrapping it up I want to be clear that Obviously here in detroit with lakosa nostra We're we're a shadow of what we once were and The narco super highway isn't necessarily going through southeast michigan. No but my research does tell me that Especially today in the 2020s There is a good amount of money being made in lakosa nostra in detroit lakosa nostra On on drug dealing on narcotics trafficking. Yeah, and some of it is coming directly from sicily Yeah Because there are you know, there's a a faction of the detroit mob right now that has direct Direct links into the sicilian mafia Yeah today. Yeah, some some of the some of the heroin is still coming from places like southeast asia and afghanistan and that that's where where the sicilians would be getting it from So some of that But I would say right now. I think dea estimates are what it's around like 85 percent of the heroin now is coming from Mexico, but 85 is not 100 So I still some there are still other sources. I've just noticed When I you know, I keep tabs on these guys and who's running around with who and I've noticed that The guys that are the og's now Some of the quote-unquote bg's That they have hanging around them the bg's being baby gangsters og's being original gangsters Uh, and I'm talking about the the guys that are running the show Some of the guys that they have driving them Going to pick up their dry cleaning bringing them dinner Some of these guys have have drug rap sheets and I don't believe that it's coincidence. I don't believe that these Shot callers are unaware That some of these younger guys they have hanging around them right have a history in the drug game Yeah, so didn't no background. Yeah, and again, we know I don't want to start dropping names or whatever, but you know, I know that there are guys that are very close To the guys that are at the top of this family right now and those guys have have pretty um Deep drug histories. Well, and we we didn't even uh mention also something in our chapter It's not a big part, but even the jackalones in the 80s huge And they and they were even shipping it to the uk. They were bringing it They were supplying a lot of the cocaine to the uk We have a lot of shout out to our uk listeners. We have a lot of fans in the uk You may not be aware of this but at one point the 80s the jackaloni crew were supplying a lot of cocaine They were the uk. They were moving cocaine on freighters That were shipping farm equipment. Yeah industrial equipment industrial farm equipment and they were smuggling cocaine in there and then that that Operation got busted up in the late 90s like right after the game tax case. Yeah, and the star witness in the case against the Great britain wing of the detroit mafia Ended up dead In protection. Yeah, there's some dispute. There's some dispute Um, it's known that his neighbor or someone that was in his neighborhood killed him There's questions on what the motive was was it just a Two neighbors that got into a fight over, you know, you're building something and you're five inches onto my property but there's other people that believe this that the jackalones sought out someone in this guy's neighborhood that had a history And they gave a contract right to shut them up. Yeah to shut them up So anyhow, we like talking about this and we know a lot of our big episodes are Either new york related or or bikers cartels things like that, but Detroit is our home base and so, uh, you know from time to time We like to record episodes about what what's going on here or at least historically and we hope you find it interesting So anyhow, thanks for listening. Can I call? Yeah? Yeah, go ahead? Of course Let's wrap it all around and bring this thing all the way back And we can hit the siren because After the italians You know stop dominating in the dope game in detroit A certain group by the name of black mafia family emerged And they were a africa mainly african-american organized crime group based out of southwest detroit And they were led by the flenery brothers big meets Demetrius flenery and his brother southwest tea and these were guys that were students of the game They were guys that studied lucky luchiano studied myer lansky studied joe prafaci studied joe zirilli and tony jackaloney and Based their organization Really more so than Any other african-american organized crime group um They really patterned it after the italian. That's where they named it the black mafia family And they ended up expanding out of detroit By the time they were arrested in the in the in the mid 2000s They were they had set up shop in over 20 states They were controlling well over 50 of the cocaine market wholesale cocaine market In in america and they had outlets all over the they were like the walgreens of wholesale cocaine Or they were on every corner in every major city. Yeah, and uh When they got busted in 2005 called operation motor city mafia the biggest domestic Drug dealing bust in dea history. They confiscated 275 million dollars from bmf connected bank accounts Big meech is still serving time for that case And I know this was a long preamble to tell you that i'm involved in a very Exciting project a docu series that's going to be premiering on october 23rd on the stars network I I did this along with stars and 50 cent and his g-unit productions and alex gibney and jigsaw productions alex gibney's one of the Real accomplished documentarians in in our country and we came together in 2021 and put together at eight part docu series The real story behind the black mafia family and it premieres on october 23rd and i'm a producer on it i'm a star of it and uh I encourage everyone to check it out and give us feedback. I'll be dropping every They don't do binge watching with stars They drop it every so every every sunday For for eight weeks, they'll be dropping a new episode of the black mafia family docu series, which is called blowing money fast Yeah, it looks really good and we we we uh promoted the trailer on our twitter and our YouTube account so people can watch it and we'll figure out a way to do that on I think we're gonna instagram too, but the trailer looks really good. I think we're in it by the way a couple of times I think we're gonna have i'm gonna try to have uh As the show gets off the ground and maybe midstream Um, maybe after week three or four I'm gonna try to have the director and showrunner uh, shan nicholson who I work with really closely come on and talk about it Yeah, we've had uh, we've had other bmf episodes if you like that topic check it out including big niches former lawyer From the other side the irs criminal division Uh criminal investigation division agent who led who led the that motor city mafia investigation um and also uh just you know Anytime we've had former african-american drug kingpins on our show uh doc davis late in the beast simon daryl chambers um, they always Talked about they they knew who the italians were back in the 70s and 80s So they're you know, it wasn't just the uk shipping. I mean, I love daryl I love daryl chamber story. I mean this this guy was at the the height of the of the cronk boxing empire and he was You know rising up through the ranks with tommy hernes and in the 70s He's talked about a manual or stewart taking him to the rooster tail Or taking him to the motor city boxing gym to basically show them off in front of the italians He's like we're fighting and we got these old italian mob guys smoking cigars at ringside knowing that we had to impress them He named her at prizziola and that and that was something we did with sammy finazzo Sammy finazzo. Yeah, he was part of that partinica finazzo who was a Prizziola, quasarano guy, right? He ran all the boxing here in detroit He he owned the motor city boxing gym and his it was that his son or his nephew was part of the Windsor nephew No, his son his son jimmy finazzo was part of it was a part of the uh of the Windsor crew. Yeah So anyhow, uh, again, thanks for listening. Please follow us on social media. Check out that bmf documentary Keep spreading the word. I'm jimmy buchelado. Scott Bernstein. We're out. Thank you