 Hello and welcome to a new episode of downstream Navara Media's interview series examining all things politics, culture and political culture. It's basically Frost v Nixon if both Frost and Nixon were played by Muppets. That's the vibe. I am beyond gassed to introduce this week's guest. She is an accomplished vocalist, a show director, a seamstress. She can do things with her hip flexors that I can't even pronounce. And unless you've been living under a rock for the last year, you'll also recognize her from the very first season of RuPaul's Drag Race UK where she came first to run it up and was never, not once in the bottom two as far as I can tell. Wow. Achievements, Davina De Campo. Welcome to the show. You're bloody right about calling me a Muppet. Here I am. You've got the Muppet to appear on the Vara Media. People with discernment and judgment don't end up here. What are you doing? Because everyone talks about 2020 being a wild year and then 2021 comes in just straight, hoffing glue. Yeah, I mean it's the whole, this whole year has been crazy and then we're at what, eight days in, nine days in and it's already absolutely bonkers. We've got people in America breaking into Capitol Hill and you can see the pathway to that here as well, you know. So yeah, we're in for a wild ride, I think. I love how we've got like literally like a communist talking to Marie Antoinette in the shell suit and that's actually one of the saner elements of this year. Just don't smoke around me. That's what I'm saying. Don't, don't like any cigarettes or no naked flames. I know I'll be like a 90s nightmare. I mean, I pretty much am a 90s. I mean I can imagine like if I bumped into you on my acid trip just being like, oh wow. I have slowly fallen off the face of the planet. I mean for the sake of transparency I should probably say that I was team divina for your season of drag race and for me it started when you came out and there was that first look which was about representing your hometown I think and you had these trumpets coming out your teeth and what it struck me as is that it was a real celebration of like northern working-class industrial culture. So it was like tea shop on acid, miners, brass bands, all of that. I hadn't seen drag from this country which represented that aspect of British working-class history. Was that like a conscious thing for you? Well like Brickhouse is very much that. Like it is a real working-class and an industrial town. It suffered from all of the 80s malarkey that went on and that's its roots and it's famous for a brass band and which is obviously where the brass band comes from. They were in Brass Dough and they literally were world famous in the brass circle, the Brickhouse and Brass Band. So that was where that came from and then I was just pulling elements of Brickhouse and its history in there. So around my neck I had this brass canal barge because Brickhouse became an industrial hub because of the canals and without the canals Brickhouse wouldn't have grown up into the little town that it became and the house that I grew up in actually was built by a mill owner as well. So one of the owners built the house that I grew up in in 1875. So you know I have these real strong links to that industrial part of Brickhouse's history and then of course we're surrounded by Bradford, Halifax, Huddersfield and all of those mill towns as well. I mean do you consider yourself to be a political person because I listen to that and I go that is such a political history of the place that you come from. Do you know I mean not like party political but it's saying like I align myself with this certain class of people. Yeah absolutely. I mean I can't say that I am from a working class background. I'm not. We were really lucky like the house I'm talking about it was a mill owner's house. So you know dad was a doctor, mum was a nurse, both of them are educated, both of them had been to university. All of us have been to university all seven of us but we very much went to schools that were very mixed. So it wasn't like oh these are all middle-class you know easy life kids absolutely not. It was a very very broad mix of kids that I was mingling with and so you know I really understand what that's like and just because we were in that house also doesn't mean that everything was easy you know when as most people's parents did through the 90s when they broke up when their marriage dissolved you know we were we were on eight p. loaves of bread and three p. noodles you know that's you know so we were we were really on on the the edge of things you know track mum was doing her absolute best to make make ends meet very very difficult. I mean so what was it like growing up in Brighals going to school and also like knowing that there were things about you in terms of your sexual identity your gender expression which marked you out as different. Yeah I mean I was always campus tits like I'm you know I am the the veritable row of tents the stereotype I loved Barbara Streisand and Judy Garland ever since I was tiny I don't know whether it was her wonky eye or whether it was just her singing I don't know but I I have always been that you know stereotype of oh there's a gay person so you know Julia and Clary was like me but oh there's there's somebody doing what actually I would really like you know that's that's me and growing up in a place like Brighals which has a tendency to be quite inwards looking that's not always that easy you know with those little towns where you grow up there you get a job in the town you work in town you live in the town you don't leave the town why would you leave the town stay in the town the town everything's about the town. It's like interviewing Lisa Nandy. I hope I've got better eyebrows but you know it's very like that and for somebody who doesn't fit into those pre prescribed this is what men do this is what women do this is how men behave this is how women behave this is how you're supposed to live your life and for somebody who from just a really really early age clearly does not fit in with those predetermined roles it was very difficult it was genuinely very difficult it's also that thing of coming out from the 80s and that huge homophobic backlash you know precipitated by the AIDS crisis something that my mum said to me she was terribly disappointed when I came out as straight she was like not even a little bit bicurious she was like here I am like feminist open inclusive mother and I've raised like two heterosexual girls this is awful when my stepbrother came out she was punching the air she was like at last I can prove myself but one of the things that she said was that in the 90s as a parent you had no idea how to safely socialize your gay or queer child into their identity and their sexuality whereas there's a pathway for straight kids like there's your school discos and you go to nandos for your day and you can do that safely whereas if you're a parent of you know a queer kid particularly then because it was seen as like predatory or like you know somehow dirty or wrong or dangerous there was just not that obvious thing for parents to help their kids grow into themselves yeah very that and I think when I did come out I was 14 so I'm still very young um we were on holiday uh in Ibiza um probably you know maybe not the easiest best time for me to do that but oh well um but you were 14 what were you supposed to do like have the pyro gather everyone in the library and yeah I mean maybe right come into the lobby everybody I've got an announcement uh no so I that was definitely something that my mum really struggled with and I think that that's you know she reacted really badly and I think she would fully admit that she reacted very badly um we haven't talked about it but I think I think she'd admit that um and I and I think that that is a big part of the reason why because you know she she was born in the 50s it's still illegal to be gay she's um seen the way that people treat gay people then the AIDS crisis happens so that's like still fresh in everybody's mind who is that generation um and then your your son says oh I'm gay and you think right he's going to end up dead on a hospital bed isolated from everybody great um so I think for her that was a real struggle to sort of work out how how do I um how do I support my kids in a world which will not be kind and I think in some ways my mum had a difference she knew she had to raise me to be brown right she's brown I'm brown so she's like the world's going to hate you here's what you need whereas I think if you're a straight parent you're raising a gay child and you don't necessarily have those reference points for this is like the armor that you need and this is what's going to protect you and and keep you feeling proud in who you are then it yeah it must be really confusing I mean you've you've done work in schools do you see a difference now for those kids who are different or do you still think it's pretty bad in in the schools where the work is being done um absolutely yes it is a completely different scenario for those kids um so the last school that I was working in you know properly working in they really did do the work um it was a very uh accepting and loving um a real kind of community spirit in the school like it out of everywhere that I've worked it really felt like a family you know the the school felt like a family and um so of course you know people still fall out and there's arguments and disagreements but that's family um but everybody everybody was kind of supporting each other and when I got any homophobic abuse from anybody the kids were outraged about it um after I'd left the deputy headmistress was talking to them about um how I'd got married um a couple of years ago and and before then it wasn't it wasn't legal for me to get married and they were like what are you talking about what do you mean gay people couldn't get married that's insane who would who would do that why why would that be a thing that's ridiculous you know so for them it wasn't even on their radar um to be homophobic you know obviously some kids were but um the majority of the school were great but having said that you know probably three years prior to that I'd been working in schools where absolutely the work was not being done and uh and it would have still been a really really difficult experience for um kids in in those schools I mean you know because I went to schools like early 2000s that's when I was at school and I went to an all-girls school which was like a hormone nuke going off all the time sounds like great fun it was and it was also like because it's all girls and you know just estrogen flooding your body like it was in one way like weirdly highly sexualized like you'd run a corner girls like do you want to see my tits then you know they knew they just grew yesterday but that was at the same time like really homophobic like the worst thing you could be was suspected of being a lesbian or fancying other girls and I remember finding that confusing at the time and and you know it was a pretty you know an interesting journey for me to heterosexuality but then I just thought what must it what must it have been like for a girl who was sort of you know growing into their sexuality having these feelings and it's this like two things turned up to 11 like one is like you know constant bodies and closeness and the other is like very extreme violent regulation of yeah what's okay and what's not okay yeah and I think okay so I think that there's a major problem in our school system anyway I think that the deregulation of it is really damaging to lots of kids in lots and lots of ways I think having religious schools and academies which don't have to follow a set because they don't have to follow the curriculum in the same way which means that they don't have to teach about gay people or about lesbianism or trans people in the same way that a normal state school would do and I think that that's really damaging because it doesn't it allows too much of the head teacher or the academy heads agenda and that damages people who are in a minority it allows that fostering of misunderstanding to happen I mean you can see that with trans rights in particular like we're at this moment of backlash yeah and you've got the government you know you turning on amendments to the GRA you've got a kind of renewed moral panic about changing rooms toilets and you've also got this sense of you know particularly if you're a trans woman you can't win if you want to transition when you're young and access hormonal treatment you've got court rulings saying that's going to be a lot more difficult and then if you transition when you're older and perhaps your facial features aren't so like traditionally feminine you will be seen as like you know kind of a pervert you know a man in a dress and like demonised for it what role do you think something like drag race has in helping along the cause of trans rights in particular oh there it is there's the bomb tell me what you think about that hey okay well I'm I'm just gonna also go back to trans women can't win because if they if they do all the things that a woman is supposed to do and you've got the long hair and the eyelashes and the big tits and this and and you're overly sexualized then you're a parody and if you don't do enough of that then you're a failure so whether whether you transition early or late either way people are going to be criticising you because you are trying too hard to that horrible phrase pass or not hard enough you're too too manly you're too feminine you're too that you know and it's it's all the same arguments that we heard in the 80s about lesbian and gay people and it's just repackaged for another and it's it easier it's an easier way of doing it okay so okay so the contentious bit okay so drag race and trans issues and how does it help I'm not sure it does um honestly I'm not sure that trans that trans issues and um and the struggles that trans people go through are helped actually by drag race um I think that there's there's already a misconception in the general public about um drag and trans um that uh a if you're a drag queen you must be trans or if you are trans that you are not able to do drag or you are in fact just doing drag um because I think that there's not enough information out there about the the differences between sexuality gender and gender identity because gender and gender identity are not necessarily the same thing either um you know when I talk about gender I'm talking about the social construct the idea that this is what a man should do and this is what a woman should do and that to me is false and it always has been false but it's been something that's been put into uh the way that we organize our society by other forces maybe the church and maybe some religious I don't know maybe I do know maybe that's exactly where it's come from um and and so uh I I'm not sure that drag race does as much as it could to um to challenge some of those issues and problems and and enough to educate people about it you know I talked about being non-binary when I was on the show but you don't see any of that um because it's not a conversation that that they were wanting to have at that point because that's something that I kind of wanted to raise about in particular the UK because in the UK liberals and feminists see trans rights as so much more contentious than their counterparts do in say America or even Ireland where the idea of trans rights is kind of you know that bit more normalized and you think then about the particularities of UK you know drag culture as entertainment it was very much you know pantomime dame you know that there's a difference between the man playing the character and the character and so then when you take the example of Eddie Azar who very recently has said I want to be addressed with you know feminine pronouns she and her lots of people who were big supporters of Eddie Azar when he was just man in a dress now when she wants to be taken seriously in her gender identity it's unacceptable so thinking about the limitations of drag race is it because it's entertainment so it's not unboxing um you know gender subversion from entertainment for cisgender straight people I think that's a very kind interpretation I'm not sure that's necessarily true I think that there is a lack of will actually in the upper echelons to to talk about that stuff and I think some of that is because it is contentious because it is difficult because it is thorny and it's easier to just go okay we'll not talk about that actually um when actually there is there is so much good that it could be doing um that it's it's choosing not to I mean do you think that you being non-binary is more contentious than you doing drag that one is seen as kind of more subversive or dangerous or weird than the other I I think it's difficult there's a there's a point in a lot of people's lives where um where once they were pushing boundaries um where they become comfortable and they no longer see that there are any boundaries because their life is comfortable and and so you forget that actually your experience is not the same as everybody else's and uh not everybody else um has the opportunities that you do and just because you managed to make it through the rap trap it doesn't mean that those other people didn't work just as hard but just weren't given the same opportunities um and I think that there is an element of that oh my god this is this is going to get me blacklisted I mean I think I think it's important because I'm not trying to say that oh oh there's a RuPaul industrial complex but you know through those seasons of drag race you know drag has itself become this huge commodity and a kind of global industry and look at the target audience right you know I'm a prudish heterosexual living in zone three and I'm like yeah it's clean like you know it's I'm the audience of basics that's like loving it eating it up but that's also constraining because it says that to be successful as a drag artist you've got to be relatively depoliticized so you're kind of broadly liberal but you can't be like guess what I'm a socialist and I think that like you need medicare for all like austerity is a bag of shit you know you can't be saying that stuff and it's also you can't you've got to be a kind of drag which is safe for straight people like me to consume and feel easy about it can't there's a limit to how challenging it can be but if if that's going to be the case then you can't continuously be calling drag punk because it's not that's the least punk thing in the whole world that I'm gonna sanitize this and make it safe for everybody you know like I change what I do let me just be Donald Trump for a second just happen there oh my god um I I absolutely change the kind of material that I do depending on who my audience is you know so if I know that my audience is full of 18 year old kids I'm not going to sing zing went the strings of my heart that makes no sense but equally if I'm doing an audience of 70 year olds you know I'm doing an old people's home then maybe I will do that maybe maybe that will be something that'll happen and likewise I'm not going to talk about um the complete restructuring of the socioeconomics of the UK on a Friday night in a pub that's not going to happen because that's just not an appropriate platform for me to do oh that's why I don't have any friends I mean partly because that's not what I'm being paid to do you know what I mean but if I'm if I'm making a theatre show and that is very clearly uh what this show is about so we did a show Dancing Bear which was um about sex gender and religion you know all we needed to do was throw in some politics there and we've got the the whole lot of it um and so that very clearly is about that and that is the product that that is there for us to talk about at that point so I don't think that you have to always talk about everything all the time um but equally I think that there there isn't an onus on you as actually as a drag queen um to be talking about politics and talking about um how those politics uh interact and oh oh my earphone interact and affect um people's people's lives you know there is a responsibility to being a drag queen I think so one thing that I've always been interested in about reality tv because I'm fascinated by reality tv I reality I love when you can see the stitches almost or you can see the strings and when you know something's produced I feel I love it for some reason and I was thinking about the particular challenge of drag race because Davina De Campo represents probably many aspects of your personality but is also a character and then you've got the de-dragged you who's on the show and interacting with the other queens and doing the confessionals and there's an element of performance there like did drag race in some ways trouble the distinction between the drag and not drag you because you're having to perform all the time for it um there isn't I mean honestly I'm you know UK drag is very character based and mine is less of that um so Davina is really just an extension of oh oh my god I didn't even say my own name I don't know who that person is really um you know I kind of am Davina really um I spend most of my time working and thinking and orienting my life around the work that I make so um so there isn't much of the other person they are a homogenous cohesive whole um and in terms of performing on the show the only times where I really thought about performing were once I was on the runway or on the main stage I never I never really thought about that performative aspect behind the scenes um that is just actually how I am um and that was one of the only things that that was my only agenda going in actually was that I was going to be as much myself as you you know you can't completely be yourself because it's a very false environment um but that was the only thing that I really wanted to do was to try and be as much myself as possible but you've also been performing for a long time so maybe there was an element of comfort with like well performing is me like that's what I do all the time that's how my life is structured uh yes absolutely and if 2020 has shown me anything that my self-worth is completely anchored to my work I want to die oh god that's what I've hated about lockdown is like I'm spending so much time with myself and that's horrible like yeah you know I kind of suck I need other people to take the edge off exactly I'm too miserable most of the time those little external validation don't knock it those gremlins in my brain need need those other people going yeah you rock for me not to feel like I'm worthless I know you're just like where's the serotonin gone like that's what there's that that feels like a 90s grunge track where's the serotonin gone it was born in 1992 so it was just enough time to absorb some of that grunge like before it was on its way out a bit savage garden there oh my god my sister really liked garbage she was like John Manson was like the shit or as for me I would like had my pop culture from you know when I was like 11 upwards grime was kicking off in such a big way in London but I also really loved goths so I was like wearing black lipstick and listening to like you know boy better know and stuff like that like yeah like it was just really incongruous I'm like grime plus I want to be a goth and then I realized that it's quite hard to be a brown goth because none of the makeup was made for you so it just looks really ashy all the time I mean welcome to my world oh this is this is like the strategic political alliance between like drag queens and failed brown goths they that's who'll deliver the revolution a red flag and a silver dress I'm ready I mean I I think maybe I want to ask you another contentious thing okay except I'm not sure if it's actually contentious or if it's just purely a product of my imagination okay and that is the whole snatch game thing of you and bag of chips both wanting to do Thatcher because I wanted to see your Thatcher I kind of imagined that maybe there'd be like some interesting layering and stuff going on there and I'm not sure if it was like the editing and how reaction shots were put together but I felt like I detected like an element of discomfort from you and maybe was that to do with bagger has openly voted conservative so she's not coming at it from as critical a point of view as you might have like was I imagining that was that real I should probably clear up some little bits about bagger a lot of what bagger does online is just for effect so she's a troll and she's spent I mean before drag race she spent at least the last eight years trolling everybody as much as she possibly could you know so she'd be saying things I absolutely love them yeah and and she's just trolling people you know because we've not had a government that's been as far right as as the current crop are I mean for a very very very long time you know there's not been people in power who have held such right wing views for a very long time so she's you know been trolling people just so I you know I'm just going to put that out there and in terms of snatch game as soon as I saw bagger I knew that she was going to be doing that show you know so I walked into that work room where I was like oh no but like looking at it now do I think I would have done a better job than her no because that discomfort that discomfort that you saw was because I sat down in that chair and I lost my mind I absolutely lost my mind I I mean sometimes you have a good date other times you have a bad day you know like we did the puppet challenge which is essentially the same thing just make it up on the spot everybody else went to pieces and I I was I just was like yeah I can totally do this this is fine let's just make it up off we go because I was relaxed by that point snatch game I was still so in my head and I was just waiting for somebody to tap me on the shoulder and say I'm really sorry we made a mistake we meant a different divina you need to leave you know that pure imposter syndrome thing so if I done that do I think I would have done a good job no I don't think I would actually not on that day not on that day I just was not in the right place for it I would have still sat in that chair and gone save me somebody help me I'm having a breakdown I mean do you do you feel like you'd want to return and do another snatch game now that you've got that kind of experience and confidence or are you just like that's cancelled that's over never again I mean I'm probably cancelled anyway now after saying what I've said so so would I want to go back I think even if they asked me for all stars I probably would go back am I desperate to go back and prove myself in snatch game no that's not really what I do that's not my that's not my modus operandi for track you know like I am just very honest and open and there are things which obviously is a joke and then there are things which obviously are not a joke when I'm when I'm working and and performing and and it's it's about how how you as an audience read that I mean I think another thing that I found really interesting about the range of things that you did was you came in and I was like campy like you know very like British like room above a pub drag I love it and then it was there like posh on a penny challenge where you made that amazing outfit and trousers out of the laundry bags which again is very British because I was just like on Walthamstow high street those are the bags which you see hanging out of the shops all the time but was like very avant-garde you can see like the influences of peak burns it was beautifully tailored and I suppose I mean this is a weirdly big question to ask but how do you assemble that range of cultural interests like well you are the things that you've returned to again and again you're old that's that's all it is you know I've just had a lot more time to cook than everybody else so you know like blue is an amazing makeup artist but has she had as much time to cook about socio-political stuff and about gender theory and about dance history and you know no she just hasn't had as much time so so I've just had a long time to read and I love reading and I love finding things out and learning stuff and I'd done I'd done a film with sick finger studios it was one of those random acts things for channel four and they do loads and loads of like high fashion editorial shoots and and I'm like fashion is if you look at any of the clothes that are in actually wears clearly fashion is not the thing for me do you own a pair of cargo pants be honest with me no I don't own cargo pants I'm the flares queen like flares big stompy boots that kind of very 70s never been back in style fashion I have flares I have some rust coloured silk flares I'm just waiting waiting for them to be cool I'm not waiting I never have I'm just gonna wear what I like and that's what I like but they working with them really got me into you know looking at fashion so I'd been looking at McQueen and Westwood and then some of Bowie's stuff and going through the avant-garde outfits that people like Bjork wear so looking at the sort of avant-garde outfits of different musicians and pop stars and stuff like that those were those were the things that I'd been looking at from working with this company that I just had those references in my head and so I was thinking okay what out of all of this that's on on the floor in front of me what do I what do I think I could make that would wouldn't look out of place on a runway you know so I was looking at real runway rather than oh it's a drag runway you know I was looking at what is an honest interpretation of what I I would put on you know if I was doing a collection what what would I want to put on on the runway and that was that was one of the things that I sort of came up with I mean so I guess to kind of like round off a bit um drag has obviously been massively impacted by the pandemic just like the entirety of the performing arts has and there's been a bit of controversy recently about Trinity the talk doing a drag branch everyone's going crazy online I'm not going to ask for your take on that specific situation what I am going to ask about is how do you know drag queens navigate between having to make a living and perform whilst also being responsible during a pandemic and there's a very judgment or social media culture around if you're doing the wrong thing you know yeah absolutely well I mean some of that is just about um would I I try and kind of frame stuff as um you know with that would I be happy if my grandma came you know so if my I'm obviously going to sing some filthy songs and make some dirty jokes but would I be happy if she was in that environment and if I'm not happy if I don't feel like she would be safe in that environment then I probably shouldn't be doing it um so in terms of a global pandemic I think that that's a good rule of thumb um and I I think that in terms of um branding deals and people that you associate with or work with I think that there's a similar rule of thumb that if you if you feel like you would be judging somebody for working with that person then you probably shouldn't do it either you know if you're not into uh exploiting people in uh the third world then maybe don't be buying human hair wigs I don't know maybe that's something we could have a conversation about and there's also um you know some of the the makeup that we all use the shimmer that's in it comes from little kids who are mining it and it's terrible for their lungs and it causes long-term problems you know so you should be looking for um synthetic versions of that if you're not happy that children are going down mine so that you can have a shimmery face I mean so this is kind of almost returning to the punk point because there's some people who think that punk is about cynicism almost you're just so cynical about everything you don't give a fuck there you go and there's another way which goes well actually are you serious about social justice and taking on power and that's an element of punk so thinking about if you return to drag being punk do you go for full cynicism or do you go no I actually have a social conscience yeah I mean I don't I don't feel like that was what punk was really about anyway I think punk was just about challenging the establishment and saying this isn't the only way that you can do things and it's definitely not the right way that you do things um and I think that we can see that you know right now we've got the uh the minister against cronyism and corruption is married to somebody who's just been giving 21 billion pounds and thrown it down the bog well this is not the right way to do things that is not a good foundation for a a properly democratic society that we are literally just handing out um billions of pounds millions and billions of pounds to people who are you know Tory ministers mates I mean this is not a good system this is like very far away from the drag thing now but do you think that the kind of rampant cronyism and corruption any other country we would call it corruption yeah which is taking place during the pandemic it doesn't seem to have broken through is a big story people aren't as angry about billions being splashed around on these contracts but they were furious about MP's expenses like what's that about that they see some things as corruption and other things are just fine because they're not poor people it's just we've had you know the last 30 years of poverty porn and vilifying people right at the bottom that well but they're rich they that's that's what I want I want to be rich as well I want to stand on the top of people's heads with my boots so that I can get to the top and I just think that that's a really unhealthy um attitude for a society to have I mean some of it is that we're in the middle of a global pandemic and um I think in terms of people's uh list of priorities is that the top of their priority or is it more that actually they just want things to work and for us to get out of this Davina thank you so much for for joining us wait wait one last thing okay can my drag name be Cheskifo de Campo yes what does Cheskifo mean it means disgusting and it was what do you know de Campo was like yelling on Saturday kitchen when he got pissed off with that girl for putting salad cream on a lasagna so he was like Cheskifo Cheskifo so I just thought he's wrong but yeah that's a great word you're you're a salad cream on lasagna person listen salad cream mayonnaise get it on there love that I'm not sure if that's a Yorkshire thing it's my partner's from Barnsley and he's just like I will make like a beautifully spiced thing and he's just like squirting mayo all over the place I am all about the mayo love love love it I lost me found something that we disagree on I like I like mayonnaise on a crunchy chip but you know I'm bougie I want my triple quick chip with some homemade mayo it's not squirty salad cream on on lasagna that's not I'm into it I'm sorry I like that all right so that's what you're going to get cancelled for that's what I've decided um but Davina thank you so so much for joining us thank you for having me what a joy so that was the most fun I've ever had during an interview if you enjoyed it and you want to find some more bangin content go to navaramedia.com you can subscribe to us on YouTube you can follow us on Twitter on Facebook and Instagram and you should also keep an eye on us on iTunes and if you really liked that content or you really hated it and you want to improve it you could go to navara.media.com forward slash support to give us the equivalent of one hour of your wage per month so we can keep working around the clock to bring you the kind of news and analysis that you just don't find anywhere else happy new year and I'll see you in a bit