 Hi, I'm Shannon McKinnon. I'm the Director of Career Development and Work Integrated Learning here at Amelie Carr. And we are tonight, we are doing a panel here called the Alumni Career Pathway Series here on campus. And our campus is situated on the, here, I was giving you a hard time going, which is situated on the unseeded traditional ancestral territories of the Musqueam, Squamish and Swaylatuze nations. And yeah, I'm going to tell you a little bit about the series. So our Alumni Career Pathway Series is an annual three-part series brought to you, brought to us by RBC. And it's presented by Alumni Relations in collaboration with the Shavka Center and our office, Career Development and Work Integrated Learning. And it's a host of alumni panelists and moderators, so also even our moderators and alumni, and they talk to demystify career paths for current ECU students. I also would encourage you, if you can, to sign up here using this QR or there's one on the back table there for those of you that are here in person. And you could win an OPUS gift card if you sign up using that QR code. And yeah, I'm going to pass it over to Alan. And Alan can introduce himself who's an alumni and the rest of the panelists. Thanks so much. Hi. How is everybody today? Got some awesome looking snacks. I see very jealous of your snacks. So my name is Alan. I am the industry liaison for research here at Emily Carr. My role is somewhat even foggy to me, but what I essentially do is I bring partners together that want to work with our research department that is upstairs on the fourth floor. So I facilitate all kinds of relationships and partnership development and help and work with people like Gemre and Shannon and Ashley to try to make different and various things happen within the school. So I'm honored to be asked to be part of this panel and with such an awesome and distinguished group. So maybe what I'll do is start from left and go to right. And on my left is Gabrielle Burke and Gabrielle graduated in 2011 and I'm going to read her bio, but because I haven't memorized it. So Gabrielle first found clay in 2004 where she explored the medium of self directed practice. She graduated from Emily Carr University of Art and Design in 2011, as we mentioned, focusing mainly in clay. She founded Community Clay, formerly G ceramic and Co. As she was enamored by the way, ceramic objects inhabit our daily lives and wanted to provide the opportunity for others to further their ceramic explorations and connection to clay. Awesome. Her personal practice draws inspiration from the functionality of making and the material self. She explores the boundaries of medium and contrast, the simplicity of the material. So beautifully written. And now I'm going to go to Eric and Eric has got a smaller bio, but I'm sure he's accomplished a lot. I talk more too. Okay. Eric is an environmental artist and educator. You graduated in 2022. So pretty recently, born of Vancouver Island of settler descent. He received his training as an ecologist from UVic and as an artist from Emily Carr University. His art and ideas are published in Canadian Art Magazine and in scientific spaces such as the Salish Sea Ecosystem Conference. Very cool. So you've really married science and art. That's neat. Yeah. Okay. And and Alex Hill on the on our immediate right on his immediate right is an Indonesian Canadian illustrator. She graduated from Emily Carr University and design in 2020 during the pandemic with a BFA in illustration where she explored children's book, illustration, animation and concept art. She is currently working as a designer for TV animation in Vancouver, the heart of Canada's film and television industry. Woot woot. Much of her personal work is born from the love of her Indonesian heritage. Her other passions include. I'm hoping I'm getting this right. Her bitology is the study of reptiles. Oh, very interesting and mycology. So if anyone is in need of some reptile or fungi facts to brighten up their day, she's got you covered. Awesome. Okay. That's a great bio, Alex. So all of you are are similar, but all very different. I mean, you all went to this university. You all managed to make it through this place and with flying colors. And now you're in the the big bad world doing stuff. I mean, I don't know where to start. Maybe maybe we can start with Gabrielle because we were talking a little bit. We had a chance to get to know each other a little bit before the whole session started. And Gabrielle's really married her art practice with her business acumen. And now she's sort of going in both directions. And was this what you imagined when you were going to school here? Honestly, I don't even know what I imagined when I was going to school. If I'm really honest, I feel like the company and the studio has taken me for a ride. And I started out when I graduated, I was working as a product designer for a home decor company. And it was flying around the world, setting up showrooms and doing product development with factories. And then I realized that anyone could do my job. Well, a lot of people could do my job. And I had spent a lot of time working on my practice, developing my practice, learning from amazing people. And there wasn't really much of a ceramic community in Vancouver at that time. And like Robin Hopper passed away and people were getting sick. And I kind of thought that something needed to happen. So I quit my job and I... Oh, you had a full-time job. What were you doing at that moment? Product design. Product design, OK. And was that for like a big company? They're based in Surrey. They would go to like the world trade market in Vegas and stuff for like furniture. I wouldn't say they're like huge, but... But you were getting paid well. No. They definitely took advantage of the fact that I was a recently graduated student. When I first got hired, I was getting paid $15 an hour. Oh my gosh. Wow. And then I realized what was happening and I told them I was going to quit. And then they're like, sure, we'll pay you $25 an hour. But then they didn't pay me any overtime and I was working like I was on 52 flights in one year. Oh my gosh. And so I was just like, this isn't... There's a glass ceiling here and I'm being held back and not listened to. Even though like the things I was making were the top sellers in the company. And so I decided to put my time into creating opportunities within the ceramic community. And I started serving and had a little studio. And my goal initially was to create approachable tableware because it didn't really exist. And then that happened and I was going to Toronto and doing lots of shows and stuff and selling my work in stores. And eventually I realized that there wasn't any studios that people could make in and learn from. And so that's when I started doing a little bit of teaching. And that's really when it started to kind of take off. Yeah. And so the studio's grown from 170 square foot room to... Well, it started in my living room in White Rock. But then 170 square foot little tiny studio, I teach six students at a time to... Now we have on paper 4,000 square feet. And how many students are you teaching? So we run somewhere between like eight to 11 classes per session. Wow. Wow. There's a lot of people coming through the space and it's really incredible. It's like I get goosebumps just thinking about it and just seeing people develop their practice and starting from no knowledge whatsoever and then just letting that grow is really inspirational for me as a teacher as well. And it just kind of does its own thing. So did I have an understanding of what I wanted it to be? No, I just think that as artists like a part of what we do is inspiring people. And so that's kind of been my tune. Inspire people. Okay. That's a good take away. Alex, can you build on that? Your work is very interesting. It's very playful from what I did a little bit of snooping around on your website. And you really got some beautiful work there. Can you tell us more about it and the motivation for it? And maybe is this what you imagined where you are today doing? Yeah, so I was going to say I have a very different answer. I wanted to work in animation ever since I can remember, like ever since I started watching cartoons. First thing I would do when I got home from school would be to go watch cartoons on Nickelodeon or Cartoon Network. My favorite shows were Avatar, Last Airbender and that was really a driving force. I would always wait until they had the after show specials to show the making of and behind the scenes. And I would always watch those extras on Disney DVDs showing how animated films were made. So I went into Emily Carr. I chose to go to school in Vancouver because I knew Vancouver was a hub for animation. And I just, I didn't really want to live in the States particularly. So Vancouver and Emily Carr were my first choice and I would say the major thing that was a different journey for me than a lot of other people working in animation is I didn't go for an animation major. I specifically chose illustration because I hate animating. And that's not that uncommon of a path in animation but it's definitely like a little unconventional. But my main drive for me is because of shows like Avatar, Last Airbender that really allowed people working on that show to show their culture to the world. One of my driving factors is bringing my Indonesian heritage to the forefront of animation. I just want to keep pushing for Indonesian but also just Southeast Asian or Asian stories in general. And I think that's a huge driver of my personal work as well as my professional work as much as I can sneak it in there because it is a very rigid industry. You are working with clients like Netflix and working with executives a lot who are not really artists themselves but you can kind of sneak in your personal touch here and there whenever you can. So let's put a pin in that. That's a really good thought. But I want to make sure we get Eric in here too because we're sort of trying to introduce you. Well I'm trying to introduce you to all the folks and then we can circle back on that point. Eric, tell us about you. I mean you have a real interesting journey being both ends of the fulcrum in terms of science and art. Yeah, I mean I think maybe a little bit different than the other panelists. I feel like my trajectory has always been very nonlinear and probably will continue to be very nonlinear. So yeah, I started like I did my first degree in biology and science and don't regret a minute of it. I really, I still feel like that's a big part of who I am in my practice and after graduating I really felt like I wanted to engage with a different kind of person, the same concepts, the same themes around environmental engagement and activism and ecology, things that are very deeply connected to who I am. And it felt like art and making was something I wanted to explore. And so throughout my time at Emily Carr I really, not consciously but I think unconsciously was drawing on a lot of those kind of ecological themes and concepts and kind of thinking about where I'm at now it's still this kind of weird mix and muddle of those things. I guess I would think of myself as interdisciplinary, mostly visual art and I do a lot of painting and printmaking and a lot of it has been driven by kind of material practice and sustainable material practice but I don't know if it's a personality flaw but I find myself bouncing around a lot between different media and just trying to think about what is going to be the mode that's going to engage people in a certain idea or a certain thing I'm feeling or thinking about. Right. That's interesting. I mean I think there's a real tradition of science and art meeting. We have the project that Randy Lee Cutler was running with Ingrid Coning and about leaning windows about physics and art and the intersections are there and very interesting to explore. Well let's delve into some other stuff. So you, let's go back to Gabrielle, you were telling me you've got this crazy thing going on with all these people in your studio, you've got this space that you've got an account for every month. How is it that you have time to carve out any creative time for you and because that's in the end what you want to be doing right? I would assume. I mean I don't know. Yeah. Totally. So it was really funny thinking about that and how do you find time for your practice while you're working? Because I work in my field but is my practice my work? Yes, no, but I still have projects that I've been thinking about for like 17 years that I have not done. So they're actually happening now, they're starting to happen. It's really interesting because as you mature and get older and you live longer your inspiration changes and how you view practice, your practice changes but there's always themes I feel like that kind of stick to your bones a bit. And so when I think about what my job is or what the company is now or I don't like referring to it as a company because it just feels like it's a corporate thing but it's not. That's the structure though. The studio, I refer to it as a studio. A lot of what I draw inspiration from now actually comes from there and from the space and from like my students will ask me like oh can we do this in this class today because we don't have curriculum for like intermediate classes, we just show them whatever they want to learn and they'll ask me to do something I haven't made in 10 years. And so it like comes back around and then you start thinking about it again and it gets in your head and percolates and then these things come back around. But it's really challenging to find time for practice, for your practice if your practice isn't your job even if you work in the same industry. If it might be even harder because you're in the space and you take it for granted and there was a period of like I actually don't feel like I worked on my artistic practice since I graduated up until like a couple years ago. But there's things that are happening now like like I said I had ideas for like 12 years and I started making them about three years ago but I haven't really started talking about it yet. So they're coming into shape but slowly. Right. This is sort of a very self-serving question because I was thinking about my own journey but how did the pandemic change your desire as an artist to make stuff like I know for me and I'm obviously quite a bit older than all of you but it was sort of like I went oh there's a finite amount of time in this world that I'm in and I really want to do some stuff like were you thinking along those lines or did you feel differently about your creative? Anybody can take this question I'm sort of curious. Having graduated the year the pandemic began and this was the very classroom where they told us like oh you're not coming back to class next week school is done. That was that really at first obstructed my creative process a lot because we were working on final projects in fourth year and we kind of had this like we kind of lost all our steam. We just felt like what's the point why continue but after after we officially graduated I mean we did graduate but it just kind of felt like we didn't because we never really had our show and we never really most of us did not finish our projects but after taking some time sitting we had like two weeks to and I got laid off from my regular job so I had a couple months to just sit with myself and my art and it ended up being one of the best times of growth for my art ever in my life because I've never really had a time to just sit with my art and not work and worry about working and just have all day long to create and so that was a huge turning point for my work and I really just focused on things that I truly wanted to make separate from moving away from school assignments or thinking about like building my portfolio for the industry because I really didn't think I would be getting a job anytime soon so I was just making things that I truly wanted to make and I think it was kind of a much needed break for myself after having been basically grinding for four years at art school and it was it was a great time for of growth for me basically I look I strangely look back on those days fondly even though there was a lot of suffering going on in the world it was it was something that I really needed until you felt free yeah and now I'm back in animation industry and I do not have that freedom anymore and I envy my past self a little bit um but yeah luckily in this industry there's uh it's all contract work so you do have plenty of time to take breaks I just haven't taken one yet since I've graduated so I need to do that Eric do you have anything you want to add to that um sure yeah I I feel like maybe similarly I think when things kind of like when life got a lot smaller for those first few months or years I guess um I think my practice also got a lot more personal and a lot more um I think I approached my creative process a lot more holistically thinking about things that mattered to me outside of a kind of like art space or kind of like formal art space and I think that really did actually shift um my relationship to art and I think if I could sum it up it would probably be something more like I I shifted from really hyper-focusing on the kind of end product or that kind of like thing I was making in a lot more practice and process based um and also for me personally that was also about connecting with land and nature and thinking about um that as a big part of my art process and so I think those are things that have stuck um you know have become integral to my to my practice but it was born out of a kind of stripping away of the lot of the kind of artifice or kind of public um facing things that I was projecting about what my art needed to be so it became um yeah it it became personal out of necessity and I think it's it's stayed um in that space more um even now that things have opened up a little bit more interesting um so I'm kind of interested about about some of the challenges that you all face as as artists like um and and and also practitioners and entrepreneurs so I mean what is what is the biggest hill for you right now that you when you wake when you go to bed at night and you try to close your eyes and go to sleep um what do you think about and then what's the first thing that wakes you up in the morning oh I gotta do this emails every time every time uh wait what was the question so what what what's what's causing you worry and what what do you wake up with what worries do you wake up with as an artist like how do you face the day and all the challenges that you have to get through in that day like like are you are you or you don't think about it like that maybe you don't it's really interesting because like um I think one of the things I think about now and I don't know I haven't really talked about this lately but like when I went to Emily karm when I started learning ceramics youtube didn't exist um and instagram didn't exist and tiktok didn't exist and I built my practice my studio everything that I have now based off of social media leaning into social media trying to sell my plates you know like and then because I put it all the way out there people started making it you know what I mean and so it was really interesting for me because I didn't want to be like exploring social media myself because I didn't want to be influenced by other artists because I didn't want to like subconsciously like plagiarize or like whatever um but then to like have that like thrown back at me and have like my work like directly copied and like go on means there's a store on main street that like has work that is like almost exact replicas of mine um and but then like realizing that the reason why I wanted to make that work in the beginning was because I wanted to create approachable tableware for people and letting go of that and then realizing that that did served its purpose and then moving on and like completely I'm really grateful for it actually um and pivoting completely and now working on things that are much more um introspective for me about the medium so I think like for me the biggest thing that I am wary of I wouldn't say like worry about but it's something that I'm aware of is wanting my practice to be really inspired by my authentic self and uh like topics themes that are really true to me and I feel very strongly about versus oh I saw it on Instagram it looks kind of cool which I think I don't know maybe it's different here but I think it happens a lot these days that's an interesting answer I you know we we didn't when we're practitioners of of making things I it's not something I ever had to face but I can see how it's a problem that's really interesting how about you Eric what what what kind of what keeps you up at night what keeps me up at night yeah do you want the real answer no I'll I'm not sure I'll answer that in the context of of of my my art practice I think um maybe similarly I think striking the right balance of how much energy I want to channel into my personal creative pursuits and exploration versus how much energy I want to um turn into a professional commercial not commercial in the sense of like a commodity but in terms of my my financial viability as an artist and deciding how much of my creative energy I put into one or the other is something that I continue I continually am and kind of reflecting on and I think that can be really hard to um be in tune with especially when there is a lot of pressure to have an outward focus and a kind of um you know for other people to see your work and value it in that way and it and it becomes a you know those questions of identity and how how are you professionalizing yourself um and I think for me yeah just figuring figuring out what's a balance but sustainable and what um yeah why I'm in it uh is is kind of a constant um yeah struggle right I I think for me it's really um imposter syndrome in the industry and um sort of like just doom scrolling on instagram or art station and looking at these amazing artists and just kind of blocking conveniently blocking out the fact that they've been working the industry for like 40 years and they have 40 years ahead of me and yet I'm still comparing myself to them and making myself feel awful like all night long and it's just a really damaging cycle but I think we all go through it and I think just recognizing that the more skilled you become as an artist the more your tastes also improve and your tastes are always ahead of your skills usually and and that's totally okay and just recognizing the fact that in this in the animation industry there's all sorts of people working with all sorts of different art styles at different skill levels different experience levels um different specialties and everyone is equally as important um animation and a production is made up of a huge team of people and well while there may be some people with like more skill than you you're just as important as they are because it takes everyone to come together and there's just really no point in comparison um and yet I don't really have a solution to stop myself from doing that um it's just something that like eats me up at night all the time so it's like the first thing I think about when I wake up um with the spider-verse movie having come out and you know so many great 2.5d animated films 2.5d is like when you merge 2d and 3d together um some amazing films have been coming out recently and I buy all the art books for all of them and then I just stare at them in despair like what why can't I be like this um but I think it's just about finding a balance and recognizing that you will get there one day I mean you don't know what these people have gone through to get where they are now and everyone is just at a different part of their journey and it's all fine and it's all good and you don't have to hate yourself um I just want to unpack one of the things you said there which really it's your your tastes are ahead of your skills I think so yeah can you tell us more about what you mean by that I think just as you grow as an artist um your your interests in art and like part of your skill as an artist is parsing out good art or like what you like in art or what you want to achieve in art and I think that I mean it's like setting a goal for yourself when you when you see an an artwork or an artist that you really like and I just think that um part of improving as an artist is just kind of you're always kind of like chasing after um your taste I don't know how to really explain it but it's just I feel like the things that I like in art I'm striving for but I'm not quite there myself and then by the time I get to that point and I have this pivotal moment where I realize I learn how to do that thing that I've been striving to learn how to do I start liking another thing that's even more complicated to learn how to do like on a technical level and I just it just keeps going it it really is an internal internal struggle for artists I think and I think we can all kind of relate to that so it's almost like your your brain is saying well I conceive of this I think of this but I don't know if my hands can actually yeah do this and I think that even the the artist that you admire most the best the best artist ever still feels that way like masters felt that way about their own work I'm sure and I think that's just part of being an artist it's very interesting I mean you guys are all successfully navigating the world um you're in it um you're you're you're making a living doing this thing I mean that in itself is an accomplishment you should be all really proud of that um um you know did you did you think that you could do that with the with your skills when you were sort of training and through the academy sort of thing did you feel like that was achievable maybe do you want to take that one I still don't feel like it's real like there's moments where I go and the studio will be have like 30 people in it all doing their own things teachers texts like members making or and like I've got my own projects going on and I'll just like be walking through the studio to like the kilns or something and I'll stop and pause and just look around and it floors me it is incredible um and like people are always say to me like oh you're so successful or oh you like you do this big thing and I'm like it's not a big thing it's just a little studio like there's you know whatever it's just a thing I kind I kind of feel like it's a bit of like a boiling pot like when you you don't really know what's happening around you but then you look back on like five years ago and it's so different but then how do you actualize that it feels very strange and I I don't know if anyone else has like more realization of where they're at than I do like I don't know if I'm just like in my own head too much but like it doesn't feel real like I feel like I also feel that way I think I remember um my illustration professors inviting industry professionals in in the animation industry to talk about where they are how they got there kind of like exactly like this and I was in such like awe and admiration of them and I was like I want to be like them and I guess that's kind of where I am now but I don't really I don't feel that way it just doesn't feel that way and I don't know how to make it feel that way but yeah do you have anything you want to add to that um I don't know yeah I think I mean I I think probably on an objective level I'm not as as established an artist as as these two um and but I but I think on the other on the other side of that I think I also well your practice is different yeah and I and I think I really um you know maybe this isn't the right thing to say at a career event but I also think it's important to be mindful of the way that our creative practices is a personal thing and and I really very strongly believe we're humans before we're employees or renters or volunteers or anything else so I and and I think I think it's important I don't just say that to cope with you know whatever whatever I feel in terms of the economy or whatever I think it's also really important for artists to to fight for that to like to keep that front and center um and to keep the kind of creative drive um like like sustainable for its own its own merits um and so I I think I maybe define kind of where where I'm at a little bit differently but I also think at the at the end of the day it is grappling with how we how we identify um and where where our kind of sense of of validation or or inspiration comes from yeah that's interesting I mean so all of you are are sort of very embedded in your own practices and and and very much doing what you want to be doing do any of you have to do odd jobs on the side to like keep things the lights on or I don't know if any of you want my answer is really quick so no I didn't I just I I just had an art director who took um who had a lot of faith in me after seeing my work and she offered me a job after graduating so that's all I have to say I don't have so much of a story so your art well let's look at that like so your art director is someone who's works on a series of projects and then says oh um Alex would be great for this role is that how it basically yeah so um I I've always been putting my work out there on Instagram on Twitter or whatever and um my first job was working for Barbie um the Barbie Netflix not the movie the movie was really cool I wish but the Barbie Netflix animated TV shows and um an art director I I was basically really worried about job security after I got laid off from my regular job that I had while I was at school I was just working retail and um started looking for work immediately after graduating and I just there was not a lot of hiring at that moment but I just submitted what's called a application expression of interest application and my work just kind of got circled around this studio mainframe studios to be exact and an art director saw my work and was like we could use her and offered me a job as a junior which is better than being a production assistant which is usually what a lot of people have to go for initially so I'm really fortunate in that aspect that my first job was as a junior designer like a visual development artist in animation rather than being a PA which is just like grabbing coffee and stuff so I I say I don't have much of a story because I'm very fortunate in that um and and that doesn't come from just being lucky like I I put a lot of hard work into my portfolio so having a strong portfolio is really all that matters I don't have the best um interviewing skills like my interview wasn't really much of an interview it was just a little chat um so I think just having really strong portfolios really what your work really stands for itself I I would say so I don't want to sound too I just yeah I think like a strong portfolio is really all they're looking for it doesn't matter if you're a really shy person or anything it's just they just want to see you be able to communicate um your ideas strongly Eric do you have to do other odd jobs things to keep going well yes I mean I have a job outside of my art practice yeah I I think at different stages um since I've graduated I've I've had more and less kind of other jobs um and I think that will probably change in the future as well but for me it was a matter of it was less to do with I think it was less to do with like I mean there's the financial element of it but there's also um like from I don't know maybe this is corny but I also do think it has to like it has to be a balance of knowing like what you want your practice to be actually and so for me being able to to not have um the kind of pressure on my art practice where I where I felt like I was at um when I when I got a another job it was more about asking the question of like is this the once the train track once you're on the tracks it can be really hard to get off and I really wanted to to ask that question and I'm glad I did yeah if that makes sense yeah I mean do you feel though that your art practice and your day job learn from each other is there just you learn things from your your your that that yeah yeah for sure yeah I actually work um I work to support art and uh designs students that have like intellectual disabilities and whatnot all right cool so for me being around creative people being in a in a culture and an environment that is around creative people it's super like generative and creative yeah I don't think I still consider myself working in the art yeah space of course yeah um but but to me it's more a question of like you say is that is that a generative thing or is it a um like a draw and for me it's not a draw sure and you've got it just like so like all these things are just the web is like tight yes it is I feel like everything I do is an odd job um it's actually really interesting thinking about that question and thinking about like okay like what is a practice like who are we as artists like what are we trying to do because like a part of being an artist is like you have to document your work you have to like reach out to people like that's networking pr and you know uh documenting is photography like there's so many different parts of it and then having the studio like I built the studio like by myself I do the photography I do the videography I built my website I do Google ads all the ad things like literally every single thing I even do my own bookkeeping because it is so hard to find a bookkeeper so like that's incredible but like we do that as artists that's what you do um I feel like as artists we are resilient people um that we just do things we want to do something and we just make it happen and so like I feel that as artists everything that we do is a part of our practice even as humans like cooking for instance like do you just make noodles and just eat them and that's it or do you add something to it because you're inspired by that flavor or in the texture and the experience of eating something that's so delicious and nourishes your body that's artistic too I feel like that's part of your practice getting close to dinner time right yeah so like odd jobs I think it's like all related that's awesome because I think um you know I very much understand that because for a lot of years all I did was before I got into teaching and then eventually what I'm doing now is um as an independent filmmaker uh you are your work you are your thing and and you guys are very there's a lot of parallels it's interesting um if you could think about your younger selves for one minute and put yourselves like it it's 10 years ago or or a little maybe okay it's not 10 years ago it's it's five or seven years ago or whatever it is but what would you tell yourself in you know your today self what you were grappling with then about this decision that you had made I mean in your case you were still maybe doing a different doing a different greed but did you have it inside of yourself in that moment that you wanted to be you still had this idea of being an artist even though you were doing a different degree um yeah I mean I I think for me like art has been a lifelong pursuit I think um I agree that I think creative expression isn't something that can be kind of just cordoned into a certain part of of your life um I think if I were to speak to a younger version of myself I think there's like maybe there's two sides to the coin for me one I really resonate with what you said about how much of being a professional artist isn't um making uh it's bookkeeping or emailing or grant writing or um you know anything coding what all these other things are um and I think I was naive to that element of it when I started my degree and I think there's a kind of personality that that's able to kind of um embrace all of those elements I don't know if I'm the I don't know if I'm the most you know uh in like in touch with my creative practice when I'm doing all of those things um but on the other other side of it I think I would have maybe reassured myself that um there's there's a another route I think where where for me at least where I'm at now really like doubling down on the creative elements of it um for I don't know if anybody's listening who who doesn't who finds it intimidating to think about some of those um other business kind of oriented things I think there's another route or version of of being an artist where um yeah maybe maybe it's not as uh I don't know maybe things don't move as fast but there's a like I've been finding lately a light touch has still been bringing opportunities has still been bringing connections and jobs uh and that kind of thing um and and I found that kind of two sides of the same coin kind of something that's new uh and a new realization for me yeah um what would you what would your younger self be telling yourself what would you be telling your younger self yeah um well I think I would give my younger self a little bit of a warning just because um part of being in the animation industry is losing a lot of agency over what you want to create you don't own any of the work you make everything is owned by studio Netflix um Mattel whatever client you're working for and I would well when I was in university my entire life revolved around working in animation I that's all I wanted to do that's all the type of work that I made and um my goal was I had huge goals like oh I want to work at Disney and I want to do this and I want to do that and I've really been disillusioned to that after being in the industry because I don't really define success in animation as just working on the best projects or working at the biggest studio it's more so just success for me is like um finding that balance between the like you I have to work to make money I have to have a living and I'm really fortunate to be a person who's making a living doing something that I love but it's not something that I love completely because at the end of the day it's not my own projects and so I just would like to tell my younger self to make sure to make time for herself to just um like delve into other things that I'm interested in so like whether that's hand crafting enclosures for my reptiles or mushroom foraging or whatever it is the other all the other hobbies I'm interested in like those are just as important to your artistic fulfillment it's not all about um the animation industry and and like grinding to get the most aspirational job you possibly can I don't really think that's a healthy way to measure success if I came to you right now and I said I you know I really love your character art and and your stuff and you could own it and we could make something together and um but you'd have to quit all your jobs and all the things you're doing and take a risk would you do it? Maybe not in this state of the economy I still have to pay rent um but maybe yeah I I definitely have taken time to do other projects on top of my industry work yeah if I just I'm really passionate about it um this guy approached me because he was making a tabletop board game like dnd sort of and he wanted me to do character designs and he wasn't going to pay me that much and I was like you know what your idea is awesome and I just want to work on your project and so I definitely do make time for stuff that I'm really passionate about it's just I can't something that I'm trying to pursue right now is um getting into tattooing and that is something that takes a lot of time and commitment and um but I'm trying to make sure I make that time for myself um but it is just difficult to balance working in animation because you've probably heard of like the animation crunch where I'm at my studio we're currently in a crunch where we just have to submit things on these really tight deadlines and I just haven't been able to make time for myself um so I wish I could say yes 100% but it's hard sometimes um so I would just like to tell my younger self like it's important to take breaks um as I said it's contract work so if you can take breaks where you can um and yeah how about you what would you tell your younger self in this moment that you're now you find yourself I think I would tell myself to go travel um that's like one of my biggest regrets I went um straight from high school to Emily Carr and I haven't ever really had a chance to travel because I like got into the grind um I would also tell myself that um I think to be kind to myself um we're all doing the best we can with what we've got and I would it's really interesting because like I try to do for my team what I wish someone had done for me so um one of the things that you have when you work for me is like if there's something that you want to do like a show or um you want to travel to go take a class or something like they can talk to me about it and we can help them with funding to go do those things um and like so I feel like the things that I wish I had done for myself I am like pushing forward with with people in the future like now and moving forward um but I think it would just be to we're just observers here in a human experience and to take the time to be a human and to just see um an experience what is happening around you right now now um just interest just out of curiosity do you have employees at your you do so you have a payroll on top of all these things oh my gosh wow yeah I mean how many people are on this payroll uh I think like four four or five right now right it fluctuates depending on like this is contract though no they're employees wow and like one of the things like if you work 30 hours you get benefits and I want to I don't know I want to have a good space so I made mistakes because like one of the things that I've learned is boundaries because I've never been a boss before and um I when I started hiring people I was like I want to make be the best boss ever and do everything I can to make everyone happy that didn't work out so good so now I've learned the art of boundaries and um like just yeah it's pretty cool I don't know I think life is really interesting because like with your practice but also like I think what was it with of a set earlier like uh you are your practice no your practice is you like it's interesting I think I think personally that's my opinion well let's just twig on that for one second so in your case are you do you have to answer to anybody with your art practice in terms like are you taking funding from anywhere then you have to report on that funding or are you just going I'm gonna go make this thing um I guess it depends like I um if I do commission work then I answer to the the client that's requesting the work but that's usually a really like like it's um where I'm at with the luxury of having to not pay my entire rent bill with um my art it I don't really take things that I don't want to and so that's kind of like that's a personal kind of line for myself where I'm at right now that would probably change if I if I wasn't um working a different role in a different role um but right now all of the things that I'm doing I'm really really excited about so um that's kind of yeah I guess I don't answer to anybody um with my art practice um yeah how would you how would you say your practice is built right now like would you say okay so how many projects that do you have just in this moment I think it like it really depends on you answer that question like commissions I'm just working on like a couple okay and then everything else is your generating you're generating yeah and and where that will end up or what that will turn into is is sort of yeah probably something that will be clear down the line right that makes sense I don't know I'm not trying to be overly vague I just no no just trying to understand what your practice looks like which is interesting yeah yeah so so a couple anchor things with the commissions and then you're building developing other things that are in process kind of thing yeah and I think like as as um I'm still involved at Emily Carr with them different projects and been teaching a little bit doing workshops doing kind of um actually more like science and ecology based stuff um so for me that like keeps it interesting um yeah so it's not just making but making and also collaborating and teaching awesome and and and do you answer to your art director or do you answer to a lot of people I answer to a lot of people I have a prop supervisor an environment supervisor and a character supervisor and an art director and then they answer to production and they answer to Netflix and they answer to Mattel so your work gets really really diluted um you'll start with like an amazing idea for something and then by the end of it you're like 22 iterations in and it's like nothing like you wanted um but the nice thing is you get you have all those iterations and you know you made something um that you're proud of at some point hopefully in that process but yeah it's a lot of people to answer to um I'm I'm I do try to branch out more with freelance illustrations so I do I've done some travel illustration I've done children's book illustration which has been really fulfilling it's always something that I've wanted to do and I have I'm in contact with a few agents I don't really know how to go about dealing with an agent yet but I'm I hope one day to create my own storybook it's like a long-term goal of mine I think that's a great goal yeah okay well um I think uh yeah I was thinking maybe we'd open it up to questions um what's the name of your studio or it's called community clay uh so there's a couple instagrams um so community clay home is the production table where I was making um and then community clay studio is our like artists and members and then the little secret project that I've been working on that I haven't told anyone about sort of is called apash studio so now you know it's recorded it's out there it's out there um if anyone's curious it's apaix apaix okay yes yes there is yeah thank you yeah awesome are there other questions each of you just want to say like a recent highlight that you're proud of or something you want to tell folks about so I'm actually really excited about apash studio um so when I graduated from Emily car my grad project was uh lighting um I actually ended up making two grad projects because I tried to graduate and that didn't happen and then I paired up with someone else um so I'm really interested in lighting and ceramic installations and spaces and how occupies space and so I've been um designing some lights and one just went up in the studio actually yesterday I just like got on a ladder was like I'm doing this the studio was full of people are like what are you doing it was really funny sorry what was the what was the question just things you're excited about yeah any recent highlight or anything you want to share that you maybe haven't already covered tonight yeah um I think mostly the things I've been excited about is a lot of different collaborations that I'm kind of working on or getting involved in and and um one of the commissions I'm working on I I will you know think things change in time but there's a there's a author that I'm uh been working with who writes about um nature and kind of does field guides and a lot of like um kind of environmental writing but really targeted at anybody who's even remotely interested in um and I'm doing a commission for a new book about a bird a bird a waterfowl um and I'm just like really excited because it's really fun to work with another person who's bringing different ideas and there's been a few other like um highlights around uh yeah some collaborative projects that that just brings a lot of joy to me because I'm a social person and um bouncing ideas off each other especially if it's somebody with a different practice or a different kind of mode of expression um yeah I don't know not to make this like a teachable moment but I I feel like if folks can find other people that have a different medium but have similar conceptual or different things that they're passionate about those can be really really generative relationships and I've learned just as much from those if not more than people who have a similar uh you know practice to me um I I previously mentioned that I'm kind of slowly working my way towards uh children's book illustration and uh actually around this time last year I worked on uh with chickadee magazine um Owl Kids Publishing which is a really full circle moment for me because I uh living in Indonesia but I have Canadian family they would send my grandmother would send um all the chickadee and chirp and Owl magazines to me in the mail and I would love reading through them and I think I still have all of them so it was really great to get to work with them and they specifically reached out to me because they wanted me to do a three page um spread in the magazine about an Indonesian folktale called kancil which is the story of a little mouse deer and it was just a really um pivotal moment for me because I said I've always wanted to work on projects about Indonesia and Southeast Asia and the fact that they found my work and specifically wanted to work with me was just a really important moment and they they let me have free reign basically of like the style I wanted to do it in and and it was just a wonderful project to work on so this time you didn't have like all these layers that you had to gradate yeah I had one art director Caroline but she's great and and I continue to work with her sometimes on Owl Kids projects and she's very chill I like working with her a lot okay uh do we have we have a question over here maybe yeah um I just have a question for everyone um basically when did you start looking for work to pay a rent and like or are you all like the type of person that is freaking out about that your whole life or like through art school I was always freaking out about it I still freak out about it um because being a contract worker you typically get a six month contract I'm really fortunate to have I've only had year-long contract so I've never been out of work since graduating but it is something that's always in the back of my mind I'm always thinking what other skills can I hone in on like I used to be a dog groomer so I'm like okay I can go back to dog grooming or I was thinking of going to farrier school which is like horse grooming or something um so it's it is kind of something I think we all worry about um uh I don't know does that answer your question I think it's normal to be worried about that stuff like all the time even if you're a really established artist it's just normal I think yeah I can go I mean I feel like I don't know I'm biting my my leftist tongue I feel like this is not a you problem if anybody's freaking out about that um you know that's there's a lot of these things that are out of our control um but uh for me I think coming from a science background maybe the palette that I feel like I draw from to find work is a little bit um bigger or more diverse and so to me it's it's been less about certainly freaking out just as much but more about you know what what's the kind of suite of things that I will I'm feel is fulfilling and pays the rent um and balancing those things but I I I was thinking about that all the way through my degree and and um and found jobs and did a lot of research actually throughout my degree um at Emily Carr so I I tried as much as possible to make sure that the work I was doing was was fulfilling and moved my career forward but that's that's also that's a strategy but it's also not like doesn't address the underlying issues I actually have a lot of thoughts about this um so I actually left home the first time when I was 15 and I was in and out of going back home for a couple years and then I left for the last time when I was 18 so it was like the first week of grade 12 I left um it wasn't safe for me to be at home um so I would skip school to work so I could pay rent um and I actually ended up graduating on the honor roll like doing that versus at home I was like not doing great and I used to stress about rent because like if my paycheck didn't come in line with like the weeks of the month and the first of the month and all that stuff and then I started that's when I actually started selling my ceramics was high school um so some teachers came around and they uh they saw like a display that I had and they're like oh we should buy this like can we buy this and I think I made $700 from that one sale which is huge like huge as like an 18 year old just like scraping by and for the next like a lot of years I hustled so like I actually when I was in Emily car I got into a car accident because I fell asleep driving because I was working three jobs whoa yeah and so I spent a long time stressing about money and like paying rent and all that stuff but then I realized that like I realized I learned how to trust myself and like as artists we're always changing things we're always like we're gonna work in this medium then we're gonna work in this medium and then we're gonna change this so there's always money it grows on trees you can always find more so trust yourself make sure you have enough but like don't look at your bank account every day stop doing that it's just gonna stress you out let it go it you are determined it you'll make it happen and trust yourself and that's perfect but then on the other side of it is like do you want to work in your field so that you're getting your income from what you're doing or do you want to and you're gonna give all your time and your energy to working there maybe make a little bit less because like I don't know art like artistic fields do they pay a lot anyone knows of one let me know or is it a smarter choice to work in some type of like career corporate type of field and then you can have your practice on the side because you have the functionality of living um and not both are great they're both options it's just what do you want to do day to day what can what is the choice that feels good to you so and that's something I talk about a lot because people often also when I'm dating they're like people end up in life crisis because they're like your work means so much my work means nothing it's like your work means something we need you to do your job please don't quit your job but anyways those are my thoughts that's interesting yeah I'm just going to say this quickly um if this is my leftist side talking to you if you can join a unionized studio that's all I'm going to say hell yeah so do we have any more questions anyone on your left hi I am an MFA student and I do illustration I'm an international student so I don't know anyone who works in the illustration industry in this country because I'm you know I'm from another country and and I'm wondering how can I contact with them and or with the agent and also have another question is the most of the illustrator that I followed on the instagram on the internet they are all based in the state so do you think the Vancouver is a good place to develop develop the personal freelance career yes who wants to take that one I think that's kind of aimed at you Alex yeah um I think you can be an illustrator from anywhere because all of my work is freelance but there's lots of Canadian companies looking for freelance work all the time I know a lot of people who work for like Lululemon and there's like lots of Canadian illustration jobs so I wouldn't worry too much about that but in terms of what was the beginning of your question sorry oh how do I get in touch with an agent so typically agents get in touch with me but that is because I submit my work on things like three by three magazine or society of illustrators and I would recommend you all illustrators to do it while you're a student because the fees are way cheaper and I won the three by three student illustration award in 2020 2020 and that really opened a lot of doorways for me in terms of finding agents agents reaching out to me and publication companies reaching out so I really recommend you get your work out there as much as you can there's also a spectrum if you do fantasy and sci-fi art and there is a fee but while you're a student it's much cheaper so definitely look into stuff like that and if you don't have a social media presence unfortunately as artists that is something you just really have to work on and it is a lot of labor to take on and also just having social media and LinkedIn LinkedIn unfortunately I don't like you it's such a weird social media platform but it's so important I've got almost all of my gigs through LinkedIn I was just about how to like expose your work to like other people because especially like I know social media is like a huge playing factor but knowing like the algorithm it changes all the time and it's like it's so difficult to like keep up so it's like how do we overcome that maybe or is there like any other way to like expose your work other than social media well for animation and illustration I would recommend going to things like like local things like vancalfe or spark animation which is coming up I actually wrote down it's on november 9th to 12th if you want to get into animation that's a great place you just show your portfolio to people there like there there's just a bunch of studios and studio reps and you just shove your work in their face and they have to look at it and it's a really great way to expose your work because I also don't understand how social media works it like it comes and goes and the followers come and go it's not so much about followers like I don't have a lot of followers it's just it's more so about just finding interesting places to kind of put your work and I think a lot of that really like embrace the local stuff that we have going on in vancouver vancalfe and we used to have this great thing called art breakers illustration fair but it doesn't exist anymore but just try to find these local things I really recommend checking out spark if you want to work in animation yeah it's coming up soon they run a conference every year social media question over here answered okay so things may have changed because things change quickly um what I've noticed about because like I think community clay home has like 13 000 now but my engagement is absolutely is actually like really crappy the because like you have to pay to access the people that follow you so if like you're just starting out the best thing to do is actually I think and it could have changed but keep your profile not a business for as long as you can because you're actually gonna end up engaging more with the people that follow you you can always recommend too to have your followers turn on the bell notification which will let them know when you post something and then just like keep on track of like trends so like right now three to five second reels are trending so just be creative with like how can you illustrate or how can you show what's happening and then one thing I saw recently I don't know if it works because I don't think it had the engagement that I wanted but trying to find reels that are trending so they have like the upward arrow but are under let's say like a thousand reels that people have made so I think that would take a lot of consistency to get good to get traction with it but that's something that I have seen a lot of like social media companies posting about but consistency is key try to get content out there like five days a week if you can and like right now I've been so busy at work we haven't posted on social in three weeks and like I know when I go back we're probably gonna get like 10 likes on the next thing I post which sucks because I love making I love the videography aspect and you spend like three hours on something that's like 45 seconds and then no one sees it but I'll just chip in I feel like just for the sake of saying I think that if you are an artist who doesn't who who's willing to let go of some of those like if it's if it's customers if it's revenue that comes from like ceramics and and all of these things like social media is a huge part of that but I yeah I mean follow me because it makes me feel nice and it gives me a sense of validation but I haven't posted anything in I think over a year and all of the jobs that I have now are people who reached out because they because of something that wasn't social media related it was some presentation I gave or or a conversation I had with somebody who is passionate about the same things and I really I believe it and I want to believe that that we don't need to rely on algorithms for at least a kind of work different it's absolutely going to depend if you're if you're a studio if or if you're an illustrator or whatever you do but for me you know if you're able to make quality connections with people that can really make a difference as well as like a quantity of followers or a quantity of likes or whatever I really believe that that's really old-fashioned of me I know but I love the old-fashioned because I'm old-fashioned I'm just old sorry if I could just add to that I think yeah that's so true I think just engaging and like everyone talks about how important networking is and it's really important but I think making genuine valuable connections rather than just being okay here are artists that I want to network with and like check them off your list just talk to them like a person and and feel free to DM artists that you admire and just be like hey I love your work and that can just build a connection from there like it doesn't have to be a transactional like I want a job from you sort of thing just try to build those genuine connections as much as you can and I think that works even better in person which is why I really like recommend going to things like fancaf and talking to your favorite artists in person and stuff like that I would say the two things that have really influenced my life as an artist and as an entrepreneur and as a person are you don't know what you don't know always understand there are things that you don't know and be seeking to understand those things always be learning always be curious push your boundaries step outside your comfort zone because that's where I feel like the true magic happens the growth mindset is like really really pertinent for your life and find a mentor find someone who you can talk to who's going to give you advice who's doesn't even have to be the same industry it can be a different industry but find someone who's living the life or doing the practice or doing the things you want to do and talk to them and like I got rejected from like someone that I asked to like have a conversation with and now we're like peers which is really funny so just like persist don't give up like it's out there you're going to do all the things you want to do if you don't give up well that you have you have another question for like speaking of the local communities I know you mentioned event calf and spark is like for illustrators and animators but how about like other art fields as well like ceramics or print media or something ceramics or print media would be more your area so I've actually been thinking about this a lot lately so there's different places you can do small shows there's different like little galleries in the city there's lots of little things so do some google searching there's a lot of resources that are probably coming to you being here just yeah yeah and like go to shows do the crawl like anytime you see a show at a local gallery go to that talk to people what is your practice based out of it's funny actually it's all like illustration print media and ceramics okay hilarious perfect um so for ceramics it depends on like which aspect you're looking at it like are you doing tableware functional pieces are you looking at design are you looking at like installation or pieces I think the second one design yes design okay so start going to interior design shows like start like looking at different ways that design pieces are being shown and see what opportunities are there so most magazines will have applications to exhibit at the back um and if you look up like uh yeah basically that just start looking for ways to show your work and I think the Surrey art gallery is pretty accessible to local artists but they're booking five years out so and it's funny because like 10 years ago I had an idea and I was like oh five years is so long from now like I'm never going to have the same idea when that time comes around and it's 10 years and I still have that idea and I didn't apply so like just do it just mega happen well I want to give everyone a round of applause and and I'm thinking that um if we have questions after that you guys are just going to stick around for a little bit right so you can have someone on one time with them as well so I wanted to thank Alex I want to thank Eric and I want to thank Gabrielle you guys have been terrific and I really wish you all good luck with what you're doing it's it truly was amazing to be a part of this thank you thank you so much