 So I'm here with Kelly Leonard, who is the executive director of learning and applied improvisation at Second City Works, and he wrote the fabulous book, Yes I Am, which talks a lot about the things we know in our field. You've been working at Second City for how long? 32 years. 32 years. I guess that's a good run. And has worked with many of our luminaries. So I invited Kelly, I invited you into a call just to have a conversation about the world, our lives, how improvisation is showing up or not. Oh, it's showing up. It is. For good and ill. For good and ill. So thanks for taking the time to be with us today. So I guess first, how are you doing? How is your quarantine going? We're okay. I mean, you know, it's the duality of existence, good and bad, right? So let's talk about blessings first. You know, my wife and my son and I are all good. Nick just finished graduating college on Zoom. He says he graduated Zoom Laude. But it was actually con laude with honors in his theater major, so we're very proud of him. And it's just finishing. She finished transferring all her lectures to digital formats for a bunch of her students and waiting to see if her comedy studies summer class is going to happen. And there is a chance it actually would because it's looking like they're going to reopen do another phase reopening in Illinois at the end of May, which would allow groups under 10. And I think she has like, she has like nine people in the session. So it might happen. And then, you know, I've been in charge of transferring all of second cities, live workshops to virtual settings and we last week we delivered 16 of them. So that was kind of stunning and hard, but we did it. So we're okay. It's tough though, you know, the company went through a bunch of layoffs. The, you know, you get a little stir crazy, of course, you have to create all at least for myself. I had to create sort of new norms for myself or existing. So I am still up at 5am. I have a whiteboard where I keep the basically when my meetings are working out regularly. So all those things are things that are working to keep me sane. How are you doing? Well, you know, similarly, it's duality. I am very, very, very busy. I have, you know, a day job and lots of other alternative work projects and they haven't slowed down. So again, the blessing is I have work. I have great work. The challenges that I'm very overwhelmed and online living has never been my happiest place. I like being in a room with people probably like a lot of us. My family is, oh, well, I, you know, I did have a relative who had the virus and that was scary and he's better and, you know, we are just trying to navigate these times. I think the notion of uncertainty is clearly alive and well and makes me think about our craft a lot and what it is we're navigating and so I'm surprised to hear that Chicago's thinking of opening the next phase so quickly because I thought it was pretty hardly hit. So this particular phase coming from our governor so it's not clear if our mayor is going to agree to it and it's literally no more than 10 people. So that's a pretty small phase and would be essentially meaningless to most of our business lines and would normally be meaningless to and it just that this was a smaller session anyway. And because nothing else is going on in Second City, she could hold it in our biggest theater so everyone can be very well distanced. But today, so this is a good example of how we're all improvising, you know, she sort of checked in with me in terms of, okay, so really good improvisers are well practiced and we're not well practiced and all this thing that we're going through. So I was like, okay, let's make talk to everyone. First of all, do it level check with your teachers if they feel comfortable with Second City in terms of the facility going through the checklist so that when you get in the room you have thought as much as possible in advance to all the things that could go right could go wrong, go sideways, whatever, and potentially have a really fulfilling experience and I would envy her if she got to do that in terms of, you know, hanging out with people because like you, you know, we're all social beings, we're all living introverts and my wife is mostly introvert, but that doesn't mean that she doesn't draw heat from being with other people and and you know we are definitely missing that I mean I just can't imagine how awkward we're all going to be with each other when we get out of this thing. Right, right, right. And you know I mean it is that it's about connection and whether you're introverted or extroverted. It's about human connection. I'm actually living alone right now which is really strange during these times. And I have a dog which is great because there's a beating heart in my house. So it's yeah, I mean I think that as improvisers, you know, you talk about ensemble right is that we get our juice from ensemble. You know people are creating all kinds of ensembles online I mean the amazing creative things that people are doing online is amazing. I'm curious to know how it's going for you. So when you talk about your job right now is putting your classes online are you talking about direct improvisational classes or more of the applied improvisation work or both. So the training center, which I'm not overseeing that they they moved all their sort of regular improv classes into online formats. So I'm talking about the corporate work that we do, which is a different kind of audience so so with that applied work. You know the people were in front of it's not it's not like a Google hangout will suffice and what we sort of the mode we went into and I'm very glad we did this. We were sort of listening to our ourselves and what we know about improvisation, which is the need to experiment in the new medium right away. The minute we closed down by the next week we're like, let's get on and I had already been in touch with a guy at zoom like weeks and weeks before this, like we even had any idea that we're going to shut down it just was a fortuitous conversation. So they immediately gave us access to, you know, all the bells and whistles and bigger audience that we could that we could reach. And then we realized that this format, we needed to think of ourselves, the performance aspect of our company. So luckily, almost all our facilitators started out as performers. So they now needed to bring a different kind of almost television performance energy to their facilitation, because we can't translate as well all the in person experiences we can do breakout rooms and do some of that stuff of course. But it's not the same as we all know. So we added in other assets, we immediately went to we had a giant video library, we have all the stage archives like what's if we're going to be talking about resilience let's do a funny scene that can maybe show that so also these people can be entertained. We also had a musical director. So this was something that some a couple of the corporate people made fun of us at first like why would you need this and until they experienced it and they're like, because there's a pandemic playlist that Jesse case came up with that he plays before the workshop starts so people we have a dance break we have people and he's underscoring if it gets awkward you have underscoring to take care of it. So it covers so many of these potential little moments that that can throw off a presentation so and we chat, and we do polls and we're funny and. So I just remember, after one of our very first engagements with a major soft drink brand, they were like, we have never experienced anything like this. And luckily, they started talking to their friends in the learning field, who were looking for similar like what you get me that can get my people. This is a wellness initiative that they wanted we want our people feeling. More resilient and and recognizing how they can collaborate or need to collaborate in these environments. So, so this the switch was pretty gratifying, but not without its glitches. And you know when it's funny when you're teaching agility and then your internet goes out. But we have a backup I mean there's what we so we discussed it we're like okay well it's not if one person goes down the other person can step in. You know, because we're there's more people on these in these sessions than there would be even in a live room. It's so it's funny I was talking to Elizabeth Howard who's my my colleague or I work with almost all the stuff and she goes, it was so much easier, sending two people to Austin to you know go into a room and deliver. Yeah, then it is, even in our own homes with all this technology it's it is harder, but never needed more. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean I'm seeing the same thing that you know and some of the things I'm doing and some of the members of the community and colleagues. What we're seeing is that, you know, when you use the platform creatively there are all kinds of things that are possible. As I said people are doing wonderful and amazing things. And from my experience I think at the essence of what it is people are needing and responding to is connection so that even when you're on this platform if you're having authentic connection. If you're having meaningful discourse or activities that get people into that zone, it awakens something in them because I think a lot of what's happening online is very superficial very wrote very two dimensional and people are really starving I mean clearly in quarantine and isolation people are starving for more than ever not that they aren't during our sort of normal times or what used to be normal times. Yeah well that's the that's the interesting thing about a pandemic and what it reveals right. And certainly this is revealed the importance of artists. It's revealed the inequities that are surrounding us on a day to day level. I don't think this virus is racist, but I certainly think that we have a country that is. And that's that's what this is this is showing and and these are important truths that were always there. And now, as as happens in a crisis. They get revealed for what they are and so I think we have a tremendous opportunity to take advantage of all these truths that are being laid bare in front of us. And this is going to require massive amounts of connection as you talk about integration, resilience, fearlessness, all the things, all the skill sets that someone practiced in the world of improvisation can use to tackle problems and in a variety of fields. So we have to really call on you know the best of what what we do in aid of all the healing and a better future that we're actually this idea of ensemble doesn't mean me and my my friends, but means me in the world, and where truly we have everyone's back. And I mean you know it's so interesting right that that you know where improvisation started in contemporary America at a certain time when these kinds of ideals and these ideas were being talked about in the political universe. With Viola's work, you know in the 20s and 30s and the roots of that and in this thinking. And, you know, how interesting to be now at this inflection point in the world and I think I think it's a good one because, you know, I've been at this a while, 15 years ago, people are not taking us seriously. I mean, we would do corporate stuff but it was not anywhere near the level. You know, I would not have been doing work at, you know, Stanford and University of Chicago and Harvard in applied improvisation. But now they are. And so, so that's a change that is fantastic, but also represents I think a kind of duty on behalf of you and me and the people in our field to now notch our game up. And bring this work to the places where it's needed most I mean I, you know I do so much media around this for second city just second city in general. And invariably, I get this question every single time of, have you thought about teaching our politicians how to improvise. Right, that is that is everyone says that and of course and you know I mean like, you know, when when the Trump era started but even before. You know, I was always concerned of like making that that looking like a cynical move, but it's really not I mean you know the the and I think where we're seeing governments that are functioning well are clearly ones in which it is hierarchies and status are not ruling today. Here in Illinois, I have, I have, I have lived in Chicago, basically my entire life, and I have never been able to say our governor and our mayor are terrific. That's not a thing that one would say when they come from where I come from. It has just been corrupt after corrupt I mean they're all in jail normally. Yeah, but but but and you know Mayor Lightfoot is a fan she's come to second city she appreciates the arts and feels they have a place in the discussion of how we live our lives. And so as Pritzker, he's come to the theater so I think we're kind of blessed in that because we're seeing the exact opposite in other states and certainly at a federal level. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, it's interesting, you know, the, the, the notion of working with politicians so my day job right is, I work in the field of conflict resolution I'm a professor of conflict resolution. I have people asking me that all the time and my responses, you know, they haven't called. They're not going to. No, they're not going to and, you know, you know what it's like to show up uninvited at a party. They respond to something you said and then ask you a question related to something you said, you know, you talk about the inequities of our world and, you know, they've always been there and of course some people are more aware of those inequities than other typically the people who are suffering them. And, you know, there's a meme that's been going around that says, you know, we're not all in the same boat. I know related to this virus, we're all in the same storm. But we're in very different boats right and so clearly what's happening right now has highlighted the discrepancies and an opportunity and access and privilege and who's on the front lines, and who's getting sick and who's suffering more just because of compromised immune and health care systems and it's, it's really a grave situation and it's, it's painful when these realities are highlighted in such dramatic ways and yet they've been with us all along. And so when you talk about our practice, and you talk about, you know, 15 years ago we couldn't have gotten in the room in most of these places and now we're there and people are knocking on our doors except for the politicians. I guess two questions is what, what changed that we're now in the room. Well, you know, the business books. I mean, you know, at a certain point, the literature started catching up with us a bit here and you would see improvisation mentioned by Malcolm Gladwell, the popularizer Dan Pink, you know, the people were popularizing the work of academia and then Francesca Gino at Harvard and certainly the work that we've done at University of Chicago and that others have done, you know, begins to be to be seen. And so I think you've got a combination of academic evidence based truths and certainly one of the reasons we fit so well with the behavioral science community is it's lock, lock step with improvisation, you know, the whole idea of yes and is directly related to behavioral economics and the default setting of people saying no we're doing nothing I mean it's like yes and is a nudge. As Richard Thaler is written about and Cass says to sustain and others. So I think that's one thing. I think more women in leadership roles, and specifically in sort of mid leadership roles where they're hiring for the training is a help because women tend to be and there's plenty of evidence to back this up, far better, far better leaders than men, and certainly ones who are aware and appreciative of the importance of soft skills and we need a better term for that. The hardest there the hardest skills. So let's invent that term. What can we call it. Courageous skills, bravery, critical. Yeah, I mean I always say, I cite the future, you know, if you go to the World Economic Forum website and they've got the future of work skills. It's storytelling, creativity, diversion thinking, problem solving. Yes, it is all the sort of messy human stuff that we what you know it's not on that list coding is not on that list. Well because computers are going to be able to do that stuff and it's not just the low level jobs that surgeons are in trouble because computers are going to get better and robots at doing some major surgeries. You know it's going to affect all of us so so I think that that the reality facts as we know them, the kinds of people who are in in in these positions are all reasons that are contributing to it. But I think you know let's pat ourselves in the back all the work of the people who we are talking to. We've all sort of grown up in this world and you know I know for myself. I was always, when I first started out fiercely protective of separating the art from the sort of business application. That was just something that I felt like was important to me because I was coming at this as my sort of like a post hippie, you know, dream of what second city was. But I kept getting hit over the head with the sort of transformative power of this work on everyday humans. And as I've really dug into that in the last five years, it's just you can't deny what's in front of you and this work changes lives. And it does so at a staggering rate when people come exposed to it. And then then that becomes a burden and a passion and all those things that that you know when you make that kind of discovery and responsibility and responsibility, absolutely. And then and then for us to also continue to develop our language and and do more research and more rigorous research that's that's we're lacking I mean we're borrowing so much research. From whether someone did this with music or an interpretation of improvisation the way they talk about it. I just I you know words are so important and and we forget that a lot of times. I was just on we get we get asked we get hired to do a lot of storytelling work. And I always turn down those gigs when they come to me because I'm like I don't do storytelling and we're digging that on this call today and I'm like, Oh, you know why I have a problem with that is because no one knows what they're talking about when they use the word storytelling. So one person might think they're talking about persuasion or sales. Another person is thinking about marketing or crap message crafting or message receiving. I mean it's all these different things and underneath this this one bucket. But people just got used to calling you know things storytelling. And so I think in our work we easily fall into that when we think in improvisation of short form and long form, which makes no never made any sense to me because you know you don't measure art by time. I don't think games versus narrative right, you know, yeah, so I forkated divisions. So I think that we you know we're going to be reimagining the way we talk about our work. And, and also as we study our work what what becomes more true. I know my wife hates the using yes and which is ironic because it helps you know pay to put my children through college. In the words or she hates using well she thinks she she she feels like exploring heightened is what's really happening there. And so yes and becomes a convenient bumper sticker but it's so easy to misuse because you can just say the words and then you think that you know you've done the job. But as I point out to her you know that you know there's, it's not a superpower unless it can be used for evil. So that's yes and is a superpower, and it can be used for evil. But yes, the idea of exploring and heightening is really what you're trying to get at. Yeah, yeah, well I like it and I, you know I think about you know in our community we talk about this a lot of course about yes and it's not literally enough to agree with everything you don't like it. You know it's about a mindset it's a spirit of creativity and a spirit of exploration and curiosity and connection right it's back to that connection is how do you build. You know like as you say you know you're building, you know you're building a wall right you bring bring a brick not a cathedral right so so you're bringing things to to the table and it's interesting to see people trying to do that. When one of the things that I'm seeing also and I don't know if you're seeing this in your world is because so many people have lost work and so many people have lost many many things during this time people are scrambling and maybe grabbing a little more than they usually do. I don't know if you're seeing that in your world. Oh yeah. Yeah, I mean it's it this is a massive, you know, science experiment that we're all living in right now and in terms of behavior and you know I went to the grocery store. Last week just quickly to run and grab a couple things, and they've done a smart thing at my local grocery store where the aisles are one way. Just and they and they've also sort of let spaced out all over so you know what six feet is to have people be distance and out of the maybe 35. No, it's probably like 50 people in there, two guys weren't behaving by the rules, which ruined everything for anyone in their scope and I tried talking them I like they're both wearing masks. I mean I was like you're wearing a mask you must either I mean they have to at this point in public spaces in Illinois, but it was just like, you know, you are a bad improviser. And you know, so, so watching how this is playing out and affecting certain people's behavior and I'm seeing more people step up, then sort of step out. That's my personal experience for sure. I don't winning for sure. Yeah. So that's a good thing. And also recognizing, you know, people aren't good or bad people do good and bad things depending I have no idea what these stressors were that these people were going through and so one of the phrases I use all the time is replace blame with your curiosity. So then, you know, could I become curious about their situation like, what is it that you need to go against the grain here. What are you fighting or someone fighting with you. Are you not winning in a fight. How can I help you. What can I do to ease your burden so that you can help the rest of us by just going in this other direction you just got to turn around man. Yeah, no that's beautiful and you know it's similar I think when I work with groups or even in my own mind I, I operate from the principle everybody has a story you don't know, kind of the same philosophy you know somebody cuts you off in traffic. So it's easy and real and then when we used to drive. And yeah, but everybody has a has a story you don't know and I, you know, I think also about this, you know, the improvisational tenet of take care of your partner, right, or your partner have each other's backs and, you know, it's interesting we don't have a mask mandate here. And that's become a real touching point for a lot of people, because you know some of us are wearing masks all the time and you know it's the it's the exercises, the runners and other people, you know breathing heavily running right by you and Greeks people out. And you know the mask is to protect other people. You kind of thinking why, why not, why not, why not, even if you know and there's all this people are arguing about the data and the statistics and like, even if there's a 5% chance that you could help somebody else, why not and yeah, you know it's kind of an individualist rights based perspective right Yeah, except that you know these people wear seat belts so you know it's the yeah it's the it's a difficult one because I mean I'm, I'm one of those people is are like let's let's let's follow the rules that are given to us. And by the way, we can also state most of us can stay in, you know, and a lot of people are not doing that. But also the larger thing is there is a we are, we are all experiencing a trauma right now. This is the I think it is very correct to name it a trauma. And you know, and I have had a lot of experience with trauma and grief in the last couple years of my life. And so I've been studying it and I've been looking and I was just reading the leading trauma expert as a guy named Bessel van der Kork. And he's got an amazing book on my shelf right behind me so how trauma lives in the body. And, and you know, lo and behold, you read farther into that book and he talks about using improvisation and play as a way as a way to heal. And, you know, I was, I donned on me that one of my friends from when we started the second city Detroit and no longer exists but years and years ago, she became a psychologist specializing in trauma. And so I got her on the phone and we've been we've been sort of crafting a potential workshop that we can offer that sort of brings those worlds together because she never did back when she was getting her degree. And she was doing second city. She kind of felt like she wouldn't be taken seriously in her field and park as she's a woman. So she brought up this sort of artsy stuff. So she had put it to the side and never integrated it. And then when I called her and was talking about the work we're doing, it was just like this light bulb went off and I'm like, you know, you don't feel it's going to I mean she's an expert in the field to Bellevue. And so, you know, now the thing I'm really looking forward to is someone who is so steeped in her particular kind of expertise, who understands our world in our language as a way to create something potentially very very special. Well, that's amazing. I mean, we do we have I mean the thing about our community and I am is that we have people using this practice and all kinds of ways and there are many people who use it to work with with trauma and traumatized populations. And in all kinds of grounds there's somebody I know who works with soldiers and more veterans with PTSD, people who are working with, you know, refugee and immigrant children people who are working with, you know, domestic violence or I was I mean lots of different ways and one of the things that I know, as you're saying, you know, play and again back to connection but also connection to self is that really has to be an embodied practice because one of the things that happens I'm a psychologist my root discipline. By the way, but you know one of the things that happens right when we're traumatized is, you know, we get disconnected from ourselves, we get disconnected from our own body so a lot of the work that I know people are doing is very much about embody practice, and many of our improved activities are rooted in embodiment. So what what else are you seeing as the practices that are working with the, the issues of trauma. So we're just at the sort of beginning of this road with this particular discipline. So the work prior to that that we've been digging into around resilience has been very, very well received. And what we're talking about in the context of the corporate audience is individual resilience and team resilience, and the idea of taking taking care of yourself so you're able to take care of others. And so, you know what we talk a lot in our regular workshops about getting others focused because we know, you know, our eyes are on ourselves all the time. So at this particular time, we have to check that we have to check that with everyone to be like, are your eyes on yourself. Have you taken care of yourself. And it was funny we were, we were working on a workshop. Virtually, one of my colleagues and she's like, I think your wife has an exercise that would fit here and she couldn't remember it so I brought in down. And it's a beautiful exercise that we just added to this this workshop where she is called wish. And so, and liberal invented this. And what she said was, Okay, everyone in the audience grab a piece of paper and write down a thing you wish you could do right now that you can't. And so mine was swim in this in salt water, swim in the ocean. And so, okay, now, write down the emotion that you think would emanate from from that. And I was like, I feel so refreshed if I did that. And so, okay, now on this third column, write down a thing that you can do to provoke that emotion right now. And I'm like, Oh, I could splash some water my face, I could go for a walk. They have like five things. And it's just like it's such a revelation when you get to there be like, Oh, okay, I have some personal agency over over how I feel. And my emotions and if I can if I can ground myself and remind myself and that I can do my work on taking care of my partners in our group but we all have to make that other move got to put our mask on first. Right before we put on everyone else's mask. And that's especially important every day that we're living right now like we're living. Yeah, it is it is a grind man I know and and you know for all of us and so what can we do in the morning to take care of ourselves. And so I have my routine and that I do and it grounds me for the day. And it doesn't mean that the day is going to be easy. And I'm but but at least I'm sort of prepared and I'm warmed up it's my you know it's I'm doing my warm up for for contending in this very very time. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I spoke not long ago with one of the experts in our community on resilience and she talked about that very thing, which is you know having a routine, not rigid and fixed but having a routine, you know, when so much of what we've lost is any sense of predictability even something predictable can be a comfort and, you know, the ways in which we need to take care of ourselves right. It might seem antithetical to, you know, take care of your partner but but it's really both and it's a give and take as you, and you talked about and so many of us in this field are practitioners of caring for others in some way, whether we're a teacher whether a facilitator whether we're a therapist, whether we're trained or whether, you know, we're a leader of an organization, right, that is the essence of what we do and there can be a pretty high burnout potential in that work in itself so taking care of ourselves is a critical element to being able to take care of others. We're just on the phone with a group that works with nurses at a couple of the hospitals here in Chicago. And so they wondered, you know, had we and we've done a bunch of work in this area and I helped develop an improvisation for caregivers program with the Cleveland Clinic and caring across generations. And our daughter Nora got diagnosed with cancer about almost two years ago and we lost her in August. And so, you know, during that entire is just about a year period where we're mostly at Lori Children's Hospital and and I developed this program and it's like, All right, and so we used it we used all the elements of it, and it was so vital to the caregiving response. It created meaning at a time when easily this could have been a we could have been rendered meaningless or feel all kinds of despair which we did. But we had joy in that hospital room and we had play and we had connection and we had meaning and we had purpose and all the things that it means to live well. And I think that 1000% the kind of improv practices we put into order and the nurses on the call day, we're saying there's so many there's so much volatility in terms of people aren't working with the regular teams they're getting put on different units and there's like so this idea of how do they form bond bonds quickly. And so what we did, I could explain to them one of the one of the techniques that we developed with the second science project at the University of Chicago that we brought into the improvisation for caregiver workshops was this exercise that we created called universal unique. And the idea here is there's loads of science that show that people tend to feel that other people don't want to hear details about themselves there they are not quick to share. When in fact the opposite is true that when you share even minor details. It facilitates far quicker connection. So and created this exercise called universal unique where you pick up an all topic like grocery shopping. Should we do it. Yeah, let's do it. So I want you to tell me just in like 30 seconds, 45 seconds, the universal way that people grocery shop so when people grocery shop they do what they go to the store, they go inside the store they go down the aisles they take things off the shelves. They look at their list. Maybe they take some things not on their list. They put things in their cart. They go to the checkout stand. They wait in line. They put their belongings on the conveyor belt. The checker rings them and they pay they put them in either paper or brought bags and they put it back in their cart and they go back out to their car or bike. Okay, great. So Barbara I want you to take about 15 seconds just to think for a second about how you personally grocery shop, how you uniquely grocery shop, and then you're going to tell me in about that time what you specifically do when you grocery shop. Nice. Well this would have been before the pandemic. Let's do before. So what I do is I often walk into the grocery store because I'm lucky enough to live near grocery store I can walk to I bring my bags. I talked to the person who's standing outside selling a newspaper called Street Roots which in Portland where I live is or maybe other places where the the houseless homeless population have their own newspaper and if you buy it they so I talk to him and I buy his paper and I tie my dog outside because I always walk with my dog to the grocery store and I time outside and tell them to wait which he often often does patiently. Unless I'm inside the store and I hear on parking. And I always go to the prepared foods section first because it's right by the door and I see all the yummy things I'd rather be cooking but sometimes my life is busy. So I buy treats and then I walk past the breads and the cheese and then I go to the fish and meat counters and I buy some things to cook some things to free so I feel well stocked and I usually run into people I know, and I talk to them. And then I go to the checkout and I realize I bought way more than I can walk home with my ability to estimate is very poor. Yeah, and then I walk home with my dog having to carry very very. Okay, so the two versions of that story are very different if you're in a story telling contest I don't think the first version would win. You're not winning the moth with that first one. But also, I learned so much about you. And we laughed, because, you know, humor comes from truth, and the truth of the fact that you were going to buy way too much because you can't estimate is so means I mean this is you're speaking to my soul. I would do that as well. You stop and talk to the homeless person I know something about you I mean, so these little details even something as banal as grocery shopping create instant connection. They provoke laughter. I start to see you. It's a process of individuation right I see you as a person who thinks and feels I see you as human. Nice. And the thing that is I mean this is the thing problem in our country right now is that we don't think of the other side as human we're not seeing those people who feel and have mine. And in the context of Nora's room when we're in the hospital room we would get these different nurses and doctors to come in, and we needed them to not see the cancer we needed them to see Nora. And so when they came in it would be like hi I'm Kelly this is and this is Eleanor she also goes by Nora, we have a hundred pound Bernice mountain dog named Benchley who's kind of an asshole, but we love him he loves us. We live in Ravenswood manor in Chicago. Who are you, where are you from. And, you know, then they can't just say, you know, I'm Bob, I like they they offer up a few details and and the the ability to create ensemble quickly, which is hugely important in a medical setting and certainly hugely important right now in a crisis medical situation is powerful and and something that we utilized often I'd like this is a daily thing because new people are coming in constantly. It was just very important that you know and look, everyone knew Nora's room. It was just that that was that the nurses would fight to get on on our schedule because you know they they knew that they would have an experience and really have, you know, conversations and they would also be treated is the other thing right. They need to be taken care of, you know, I like it's crucial that the caregiver burnout is a real problem. Right. So, so the ability that they knew that we could take care of them made it easier for them to take care of us. It's really beautiful. Well, you know, I, we don't know each other well, but we are on social media together and you've been very public and written so beautifully and eloquently about your journey around or I've been, you know, deeply deeply touched by, you know, your journey and Anne's journey and, and the, the, the generous way you have shared your story because you know, I mean it's not just your healing but it's also a gift to others others who who are suffering loss and and I just been really amazed and impressed about how you've navigated this time and space and really touched by it. There's no script. I mean this, you know, this is an and, you know, for me, you know, I started out in my life wanting to be a writer, and then I became a producer. And then I became a writer. And then, you know, I started doing these other work and the, you know, what started as a way to keep people updated on where Nora was at which was an important thing then kind of turned into also a way to champion her through all these amazing, you know, videos people would send us and gifts and just messages of support from all of the world. And then in the grieving journey which was the, that's not that that's the journey I was least prepared for. I did I did the traumas I experienced up to now. It's nothing like losing a child, it can't it doesn't equate. And then really became a refuge because it was my art and and and also it allowed me to sort of name the thing. And and then by naming it you can deflate it a bit or at least work with it. And so that's really every time I think I'm done I'm not and it could be a lifelong it's going to be a lifelong journey in terms of how to how to deal with this I know it is. So, so for me it was about, I'm doing something for myself and hopefully from what I heard from people is that it was doing something for them. So it didn't feel like such a sort of selfish project I was involved in but really sort of like hey this, you know, and, and I talked to so many other people who've gone through this this kind of journey specifically with losing a child but also people who've lost spouses and other people who are dear to them. And you know it's that it's that group that you never want to be a part of but you know we have each other. And, yeah, it's it's it's a different kind of improvisation, I will say that. Well, well it is and I mean, you know from the universal to the unique right to grief and loss or universal. We all have our unique experiences with that. A question is what other improvisational practices have helped you during this time because I think a lot of people in our community a lot of people in the world not I think I know are going through loss right. They've either lost people to the disease they've lost livelihoods they've lost security they've lost connection. There's so much loss so what else has helped you and you know so there's a there's a thread of gratitude that runs through our work and in all of my reading around grief, and then picking up the texts that that always were important to me I mean Victor Franklin's man search for meaning I mean I like I still have my right. I have my dog here dog here just written the margins all that stuff and I'm like, this is deeply relevant and important work. And so, all the gratitude parts, the sort of, you know, element of our work and, you know, for one of the earliest things that we worked on at second science project was, you know, the scholars asked me after with the yes and stuff they're like we get we get this we get there's research around, you know, why yes and is effective. But what happens when, you know, you're at a complete impasse with someone, and we ended up developing this, this fourth module called thank you because so that when you need to stay inside this difficult conversation, and you are a person that maybe you're in disagreement with or afraid of or whatever it is. You are set to talk setting off the gratitude part of your brain and their brain. And the because is crucial because that you're finding some point of agreement in what they're talking about and so you're validating again them as human them, or them as real whatever it is that's in front of you. It doesn't mean you're giving up the thing that that that you believe you're maintaining this this tension and you know, certainly the, you know, my work which was mostly for the first part of my career was about grinding the stuff into comedy. That tension was the beautiful place to be for the comedy that is all where the tricky human stuff is. That's, that's where we are collectively laughing at a thing that we just suddenly realized was given an expression on stage by an artist that we just couldn't even have imagined anyone could have done two seconds earlier. And again, that's palpable and powerful because it's true. And it's reflective of you know real human behavior. So I have been on a gratitude kick and and and also saying it out loud. So there is loads of science that that indicate the fact that you need to speak your your truths out loud, or speak other things out loud. I often tell the story of my friend. She was a professor at Brooks who's a professor at Harvard. I talked to her I go, she's like do you do a ton of speaking dates I go I do a ton of speaking dates she goes do you get nervous I go every single one. I said I never am by the time I'm up there into it I'm fine but I always like go at myself before it. And she said, instead of saying out loud that you're nervous, say out loud that you're excited before you go on. It's the same bodily response right exactly it's just it's like their stress works both ways it's not that stress is a bad thing or even a good thing but you want to drive peak performance. And I'm like, Oh, so I just sort of say this out loud and I've done that now, all the time and so I've started to apply that to lots of things that I say out loud that I maybe want. Or I think are good for me in the moment. And so like what am what am I grateful for it's it's an exercise all over again like what am I grateful for inside even all this, this, you know, terrible stuff. I met a professor at University Chicago asked me the other day. She said what are you going to miss about the this the sheltering place part of the pandemic. And I said shared a vulnerability. I've never in my life had this many people sharing their own vulnerability together at one period of time and it's beautiful. It's really revealing and you know, we're, you know, we're, I think I've met you in person, once. Right. Twice, twice, twice, twice, and now you're in my bedroom. So, I mean, that's a level of vulnerability. I didn't know what room I was in but now I know now you know. I appreciate that so much. And when you talk about naming things, one of the things I think about a lot with the gratitude world and the gratitude practice. I know also that for some people, it, it, it makes them feel like they're not allowed to feel the other things too right. And when you talk about a guest and it's both and right, you know, shining your light naming all those things that we're grateful for and making space for the hard feelings, because both are true and both are necessary. Right. Yeah, well this is true. It's true of everything I mean that you know there is no joy without suffering. And, and, you know, what we know about the human brain is that we have a tendency to move right into that fear flight, you know, fond, all that stuff and so, you know, improvisation is so beautifully structured, especially in the way that we teach it. And that's my experience through the second seat training center of getting at the, you know, those earliest in the earliest improv classes that we teach are essentially mindfulness classes. They are essentially like how can I get you to stop focusing on yourself to to just calm your mind. Yeah, and then and then let's slowly have you sort of give you some skills for now moving out of yourself into relationship. From there, how can we make that relationship, you know, blossom and, and, and, you know, turn these your true idiosyncrasies that we get you to reveal that you see as your absolute gifts. So your, you know, your process of grocery store shop shopping, quirky, lovely, revealing, beautiful that that's the kind of stuff that you want to use and what we know the bulk of our students have a very hard time unearthing their own truths. And I think that that is a that's a central truth of humanity. You know, people are not telling their best stories, which are their real stories. So for us to sort of provoke that means that this this idea of I think I think we would be in a much better world. If it was one where sharing your vulnerability was a prerequisite at the beginning of a meeting. Yeah, well, I'm I'm all for that world. And yeah, that's the world I want to live in. And again, if there are things that are coming out of this that are moving people in that direction, I'm all for it. Right. I'm just, I know we're coming to the close of our time but I am thinking about one of the things you said in one of the Ted talks you did that your son, Nick talked about when he was eight years old and why he loved improv so much. He said, what do you say if you're nice and you're funny, you're popular. Yep. So that's, that's the world we want to live in and kindness right the Dalai Lama says, my religion is kindness. You know, and I think if we start there, and we use some of the skills and practices of our craft, I think we're, we're on our way. Yeah, and one of the things I love about improvisation is that you know, it doesn't mean that you're walking to that space a kind person what improvisation does is make you behave kindly. And, and by the way that you know it's it's a contagion. It's viral just like this pandemic is. So people can catch it. And it's a good thing when they catch it. It doesn't mean. Yeah, we don't we won't have or for sheltering place will be fine it was just real kind with whoever we're with. But no I think, and it's funny, you know, thinking back to that story, when Nick was like 10 or something you know and he will just graduated from college and he wants to be an actor, and he he improvises but he's more interested in sort of traditional, like Shakespeare stage acting. But, but the world he's entering into and I was saying this to me the other day I'm like, as hard as this is. One of the things the pandemic has revealed is our absolute need and love and nourishment from art and artists. The kind of work that we're seeing online I mean I like the dance work. I have a friend who's in like the zoom dance company that is putting together these like, they're just stunning and then this guy who recreated the dirty dancing thing with his lamp. Which came up this morning which was beautiful and yo yo ma coming on and playing and Patrick. Yes, and there's so much work that's happening that is, and people are just flocking to it and sharing it and so you know, they're, what we're realizing is that in our greatest crisis, we are turning to artists. And, and that is what a what an incredibly powerful job that you're going to be walking into and yes we don't know what that's going to mean exactly. And we don't know how soon we're going to be able to gather in theaters and I worry for the Broadway model. I mean, I feel funny worrying for Broadway right because it's like I'm worrying about like five millionaires, billionaires, because that's who makes money on Broadway, but there are actors and other people who make their living of course. But indeed like is that going to be something that is viable going forward, not in the short term, hopefully in the long term but we're not done with these. This is the climate change and the other things that are happening here are all we're all coming down the pike anyway. So, you know, a mat what what a good improviser can do is imagine the new universe as as they are creating it. And this this ability to separate analysis from creation, but but use both as as you move forward is a very unique skill set to an improviser who at least creates like second city does content, you know, and things that are sticking around. And so I think that that is going to be a skill that is going to be treasured with whatever it is that the world is going to look like in a year, two years, five years, 10 years. Absolutely. And I think back to earlier what we were talking about is the skills that are being named as essential, you know, empathy is very, very high on the list. So, to be able to do what you're talking about is that, you know, quick pivot and imagination in the moment, while being fully present and, you know, in empathy, I think is is really the gold of what our people can do a kind of rugged empathy. It's not going to be easy for the rugged empathy. Maybe that's the new name for soft skills. Maybe. Let's try it on. I really appreciate your taking the time to talk with us and you inspire as always and it's exciting to hear about the work you're doing and I'm imagining we'll stay connected to find out what comes next is Keith Johnstone would say. Absolutely. Thank you Barbara. Okay, thanks Kelly.