 Several African countries experience crews who wonder is Nigeria taking lessons and avoiding the same fate? And Riva State Governor Nyesum Wike is in the news again, this time he has boasted that he is the most qualified person to rule Nigeria in 2023. This is Plus Politics and I am Justin Atadounye. Welcome back, President Mohamed Buhari has condemned Tuesday's coup attempt in Guinea-Bissau, presidential spokesman Garabashir who said this in a press release. The Niger leader also congratulated President Umar Mbalo of Guinea-Bissau on surviving the coup attempt. Earlier in the week, soldiers had fired heavy gunfire near a government compound where the president had been chaired at a cabinet meeting. President Mbalo asked later to describe it as a field attack against democracy. Other African countries that have experienced crews in Africa in the past one year are Burkina Faso, Mali, Guinea and Chad. Three of these countries are in West Africa with the exception of Chad which is in Northern Africa. They also have similar issues to that Nigeria currently experiences in security especially. Can Nigeria take these developments as a warning core? Joining us to discuss this is Joe Cashie. Good evening to you Mr. Cashie. Thanks for joining us on Plus Politics. Thank you for having me and a happy new year for you. Yeah, happy new year to you. I'm sure you are aware of all the development that has happened in recent times. Burkina Faso, Mali twice and Guinea-Bissau or Guinea itself then Guinea-Bissau just this week. But first of all, let us just start by asking how did you feel when you first heard of that field coup d'etat? They did come to you as a surprise? For Guinea-Bissau, not really. Why not? You know, they had a series of crews, they had a series of instability and a number of countries in the region led by Nigeria has actually been working behind this in the long period of years to stabilize that country. I think it's right to say that the election that brought in this president, among those who made it happen, was of course Nigeria. So when you begin to see crews take place in one country or the other, I mean for those of us who are older not to know what happened in the sixties, you begin to fear whether this is going to do with no effect. Now you've heard how many crews in the last couple of months and here we are now dealing with the situation in Guinea-Bissau. So nobody knows where next and this is the most unfortunate if not worrisome situation we find ourselves now, particularly on the west coast. All right Mr Keshe, let's still talk more on Guinea-Bissau. The president when he reacted, he said it was an attack on democracy. When I talked with some analysts, analysts during the week, they seem to feel that African leaders are the ones actually attacking you know democracy with their actions and of course some inactions. Do you agree? Oh absolutely, absolutely. Look, it's you know, I was an American president too many years ago said the pork hens on my table, the pork hens on the table of the president. When you look at all the reasons that have been given by in countries where Jews were successful, you will see that the military I think like in the Mali or Kina Faso, they were reacting to the fact that the politicians are that apart from the issue of tenure and elongation in a place like Guinea, the military guys were reacting to the fact that they were sent to the war front and were not given all the necessary support needed you know to fight the war that has fallen on two countries. And so certainly if leaders don't care about their countries and you are confronted with such serious security situation, no. The first business of government you know is security and no government can can can develop without a secure and peaceful and stable environment. So if the military complains that this is what was going on and they were not receiving the support of the political class who had great softness, you can see why some of these tools do take place. But that is not to say that we should rule out the ambition of the military themselves and I repeatedly argued like in the 60s, it was more out of ambition because all the coups are took place in the 60s and all the coups that have been taking place in the last couple of months in this country in West Africa. They say the same thing, it is corruption, it is this, it is that. But the truth of the matter is that to a large extent they too were part of the problem, they created some of this on a development you know because they were in power for so many years. And what did they do? This is the issue. So to a large extent I agree that the leaders have been able to claim this you know and they can't exonerate themselves, they can't exonerate, I mean remove the factors, the ambition of the military charge themselves. All right, let's try and bring this whole issue closer home. Let's bring it back to Nigeria now. I remember the chairman of the Nigerian Governors Forum, Kairadi Faimi, asked the president about the implication of all these military takeover. And in the response, the president said that Nigeria has passed through that stage for good. Would you say that his response was a bit of a narrow view, or do you really think that we really don't have anything to worry about? Well look, that was what we all thought. When democracy started, you know, taking root in the continent, particularly on the west coast, where for so many years there were military regimes. And suddenly over a period of time, almost all these countries were going through the democratic process. And we thought we had done it with military in question, into politics. But here we are, you know, it does that in a recent engagement with some people. We're actually looking at who next. Because the situation in almost every African country, particularly on the west coast, could actually lead to coups. So for anybody to say that we've passed, you know, I think that is probably a little bit not facing the reality of the situation. And I think the only thing that can stop coups is not just only democratization, you know, in the region. But the other thing is that there must be development, you know, the welfare of the people matters. It's because the people themselves have lost confidence in the leaders and in the governments that they elected, that they voted for. That's why you see anywhere that coups, you know, do take place, people jump to the street rejoicing. I can see the pictures you are showing. I don't know where that is coming from. But that is what you find in every, in every country, you know, and the cities where coups are taking, taking place. And this is why leaders must reexamine themselves and say to them, as a question, are we contributing to this new wave of coup decals in the region? I'm glad you mentioned that because there's this school of thought that believes that coups don't just happen. They are strategically planned and executed by state actors who most times, you know, ride on citizens dissatisfaction with the state of affairs, you know. But look at what we have gone through as a nation. We've had issues of, like you have mentioned, in security issues of corruption. Do you see a situation where some people, some state actors as it is right now may want to ride on all of these issues that we have suffered over the years? I sincerely hope not, you know. Again, I think the Nigerian situation is possibly a little bit different from some of these little African countries. You know, I can give you one example I cite all the time. In the 60s and in the 70s, it was very easy for the military, particularly when the capital was in Lagos, all the military needed to do was to march on to Nytel, you know, take over Nytel, march on to NTA, radio Nigeria, take over those two. That's all, you know. And of course, go and arrest the president wherever, you know, he was at that time. And that's it. They could have taken place. But today, you know, look, there are so many television stations, radio stations, social media, everything else that would make it very difficult for this to happen in Nigeria. So no military guy should just think to wake up and see the asshole rock. And then which radio station are you going to go to? Are you going to see the AIT, sees a rise, sees your own television station, sees channel? There are other channels to which citizens can actually bring down the group. So this is why I think our own is different. And we thank God that some of these, I mean, media expansion has taken place in this country. So that would probably, you know, but then that is also said that the military themselves are not aware of this. Look, in Sierra Leone, for example, the easiest way, in Sierra Leone, for example, the easiest way to stay decreased, to take over the presidential palace, once you take over the presidential palace, you don't even have to go to the radio station. That's it. You're taking over government. They've done this 24 times. You know, but as I said, ours would be pretty difficult, obviously, because we are bigger, we've grown over the years. Our dissatisfaction is completely different for some of these other countries. All right. Let's talk about the regional bloc and the roles they have played over time, you know, to ensure peace in the West African subregion. But before I go into that, the United Nations Secretary General, let me just read something that he said sometime last year. Antonio Guterres that he said, he said that the absence of enough deterrent was responsible for the endemic nature of coup d'etats in the world. Do you agree? Let's go again. I think I lost my video. All right. I was just quoting what the United Nations Secretary General, Antonio Guterres said last year was giving reasons for this epidemic as it's where of coup d'etats. And he said that it was as a result of an absence of enough deterrent. That's why we had lots of coup d'etats or epidemic of coup d'etats in the world. Do you agree? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I said it. You see, ecuas has been doing the best it can. It has imposed sanctions against some of these countries. But for these sanctions to work out for the many boys who come to their senses, ecuas they together international support. It's that international support, you know, that would put pressure on the military, you know, to listen to what ecuas is saying. And I say something that sooner or later, the world is really around ecuas and here because if you do not do this, if you fail to know, ecuas was dealing with Burkina Faso, Ypeteragini Apple. So it just shows you that the military boys are not paying attention to whatever ecuas is saying because they know that except that they know that as of today ecuas, I mean ecuas, you know, have that capacity, you know, to take military action against them. So sanctions will work if it's globally applied. All right, let's still talk about Nigeria. Overtime, Nigeria has acted like a big brother, you know, to these West African countries. You are aware of, you know, former president Goodlock Jonathan, who was an envoy to Mali. Yes. You can hear me, can you? Yes, I can hear you. Who was an envoy to Mali when they had all of, in the wake of all of the issues. With all of this right now, do you think Nigeria, you know, has learnt a bit of maybe or some lessons in as much as they are in the forefront of making peace and mediation. You think we have actually learnt any lessons in all of this? Oh, of course, it's because of the lessons that we have learnt, because we are trying to stop any domino effects. That's the main reason why you have Nigeria engaging, leading the engagement of ecuas in trying to persuade the, you know, the ambitious military officers, you know, to step down, let the politicians resolve their, you know, their problems. No, I said this in another forum, you must not consistently, I mean, blame, to talk about blame on the ambition of the military, but also look at the failure of the political class, you know, the political class failure to, you know, to do the need for, to open up the political space so people love the country, to build up the human capacity of these countries. It is responsible for this. You know, sometimes, you know, with political reference to some of these countries where you have to, I mean, there is a theory that, oh, it's because of the involvement of the French in this, in these countries are the, the French which is too much for them to carry out things like that. My simple question is, these countries have been in the, my, my, my concern, my concern over the years is that despite independence from France, a number of these leaders have just failed to disengage themselves from France and build up, you know, their own country. They cannot continue to live up to the shadow of France for years. So they must find a way to resolve this issue of France, France, France, you know. So, but again, I believe that, that the political class must do a lot more, you know, to stop coups happening in Africa. All right. In some reports that we have watched and seen in the wake of all of these coup d'etats or failed ones in the West African subregion, most of the seatings there were actually jubilating. They were dancing somewhere, just them chanting all sorts of songs encouraging the military. Even at some far out, some places you go to in Nigeria, you hear people say that the country was much better when we had a military rule compared to what we have right now. In the wake of this report that came out on Wednesday from API saying that 8% of Nigerians are the ones who are happy with this president's dispensation. Could there be any justification really for the military to be in power? No, I said it before. The main fact that the people wash out of the streets in jubilates is an entitlement on the political class, on the leaders themselves, because if they had done well the people would fight to keep them, to protect them, to keep them in office. But it's simplified that if people came out, nobody organized them. They just had on the radio or television that there's been a coup and the military has sucked the government in power. They came out rejoicing and that's a great entitlement on that government or the government that has been sent out of power. Look, in the case of Guinea, for example, delegations of African leaders, they beat all the basic people on every post, pleaded with them. Equals tried to put some flaws in its own roots of operation that there should be no tenure elongation. The people did not want tenure elongation. They wanted free and free election. Once it is time for an election, let's have an election, let's train leaders if they are not satisfied with the leaders. But the leaders themselves refused to do that. In a number of cases, like Guinea is a good example now, that dissatisfaction was one reason why they welcomed the military. And it is because the people welcomed the military that Equals is finding it very challenging to get the military back to the finalists. And so I said what I said before, it all depends on the leaders themselves. They just have to provide the leadership and do the needful. What do the people want? They want security. They want development. They want the basic things of life. And I don't think that is too difficult for them to provide. If the leaders provide the leadership and the people appreciate that leadership, there will be no flaws. All right. That's so invertebly right now. What we have on the sub-region is an issue of leadership or the lack of it. Since that is a problem, how come the cities themselves have not been able to vote out the bad leaders that they've been plagued with over time in West Africa? You know, it's a little better than me. The way the lecture is conducted. I'm not sure that the number of countries on the West Coast in particular, quite frankly, in the number of African countries, two things that leaders have done is not only have this is the political space. They've actually seized the system itself in a way and manner that is very difficult for them to be voted out. What happened in Uganda, for example, what they did? Was that an election? Particularly, you can describe that as an election. In a number of African countries, you see the opposition very justifiably to provide evidence that elections were rigged. But people go around and say, ah, no, let's manage this before it gets into before we run into crisis. And everybody does get tired. And so that crazy disconnect between the government and the people. It's like everybody is saying, well, look, what do we do? Every man for himself got for us all. The time will come. There will be another election. But sometimes we find another election, the military intervenes. So it's difficult. Look, we just must do. They will principally waste up on about elections, you know. And that's the point that I think I need to emphasize about elections. But election is something that gives us the confidence that they put in people they believe and provide what they need. And if they fail them, and this is why sometimes I think I like what goes on in Ghana, you know, except for the last election in Ghana, Ghana has been changing leaders every couple of years or things like that. I want you to talk to Ghana and the attitude is, look, one day we get it right. Yeah, some of these guys, by the way, most of the leaders of Ghana in the last couple of years, they've done tremendously well. But the people still feel that, no, they've not done enough. And so they put them out of power, you know, except the last, you know, election. And you can see that the opposition complained. They have evidence, but they, the courts did what, of course, say Nigeria did very well. Just straight up and said, no, you know, the president won. And yeah, we are. All right. I would want to say a very big thank you to you, Mr. Joe Keshifu, all of the point. And of course, the things Nigerians should be wary of us. So we advise all of them. There's a peculiar problem that have been plaguing the sub region in recent times. Joe Keshifu is the former permanent secretary of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Many thanks once again. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. All right. It is still plus politics and plus TV Africa will take a quick break and return with more. Stay with us.