 I'm Julia Patrick. It's another episode of the non-profit show. And today we're really, really excited to have our guest, Anthony Wall Jr. As he told me in the green room chatter, only his mom calls him Anthony when he's in trouble. So really, Tony to you and I, Tony, welcome. We're really excited to have you on today. Thank you. I am delighted to be here. I appreciate the opportunity. Well, it's going to be a lot of fun. But before we get started, I want to remind everybody that I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. Jira Ransom, the non-profit nerd, and my trusty sidekick is off today, but she'll be rejoining us tomorrow. Again, we have amazing sponsorship that we want to make sure everybody knows about. That comes from from Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, your part-time controller, non-profit thought leader, fundraising academy at National University, staffing boutique, non-profit nerd, and non-profit tech talk. 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So find us wherever you get your content and we will be there along for the ride. More importantly, we're going to be on a ride today with Tony Wall Jr. founder and author of Noesis. Thank you, Tony, for joining us. I am really delighted to be here. It's a terrific opportunity. Hey, well, it's really fun to be exploring this project with you and understanding more of what you do as an author and a speaker and a thought leader. Let's get into it because there's so much to explore. And I've got to first start off with your name and the concept and this amazing word. Well, as you, I understand, as you see here, we put an E at bar over the E to assist people to get that long E, Noesis. The word Noesis is a Greek word and the simplest way to put it is this. If we have all the data that we could possibly get and we reached the highest level of understanding that we can with that data, we've reached a state of Noesis. It's a Greek word. So it asks the human race to step it up, if you will, in its ability to think. Is this similar to enlightenment or is that we're working at our best function or like our highest level of highest functioning? It's a good question. It's a fusion of intelligence and philosophy. This is not Mr. Spock. This is Mr. Spock with a sense of humor. What a concept! Yeah. So that's what Noesis is. We can reach the top level of our ability to do so and that's what we're here for. Awesome. Really interesting. I love that piece of it. It almost seems like we're asking everybody to get outside of themselves and their emotions and to look at things in a more intellectual way. That's what we're going to ask. We're not only going to ask that. We're going to help you very much to do it. It's why I've been doing this for 10 years. I'm an observer and a conversationalist which I think you'll appreciate. So this is not a dark undertaking. I want to explain that right out of the gate. This is hopeful and remedial at its core. So proceed. I love it. You know, one of the things that you talked about on your website and we talked about this a little bit in the green room and that's human nature and perpetual conflict and it's a very interesting concept because, dare I say, the majority of non-profits, the 1.8 million alone just in our country, they're dealing with conflict, human cost conflict and it could be many forms, many, many forms and so what do you make of that that we're in this washing machine of, you know, movement and conflict? What I make of it will perhaps surprise. We have no choice and what do I mean by that? Let me say, explain first, conflict among humans is unnatural. As I speak, there is no human being on earth that has a natural enemy. So right away we are acting unnaturally relative to our deepest longings. So what could go wrong when we're acting unnatural in a relative fashion other than everything? So, you know, we, what do I think about a conflict? I think that perpetual conflict will in fact destroy us and it always and to say that brings no value whatsoever. We are not sensationalists. The fact is that since we became stationary beings, we've had 45 empires. All of them were disassembled and destroyed by perpetual conflict. It's the only demonstrable killer of human interaction. So what do I think about perpetual conflict? I don't think I know for a living that perpetual conflict, we won't survive it. We have to understand its mechanisms. Right. You know, it's interesting because again, and for those of you that are watching a lot, we have what we call the green room chatter where we open up just a little bit early so people can get situated before we go live with our show. And I'm fascinated by this issue of understanding conflict because we have so much going on in the nonprofit sector and we talk a lot about this, Tony. We talk a lot about this. Sometimes it's so hard to look to the future and to be strategic because we're just trying to, you know, deal with the fire that's present, right? And how do we step outside of that and really think strategically, dare I say about the root causes of our problems, how to navigate them versus being compassionate and empathetic and dealing with what's right in front of us? Well, we are loving creatures at our core. We are a masterpiece of collaboration and affiliation that was thrown off, if you will, derailed by a very viewable event in our evolutionary timeline. And that is when we organize ourselves into larger and larger populations aided by an agricultural awakening. And we defaulted to behaviors of acquisition. So this masterpiece of a being that navigated the entire world over 275,000 years was suddenly asked to become self-interested. It was a test that we never studied for, if you will, in our DNA. It's a DNA-based insult as opposed to we're hearing words like humans are a scourge. No, no, we're gravely injured having been knocked off our deepest longings. So we are in existential crisis. That is a very, very reasonable way to put it. That's where we come from. We're not sensationalists of any kind. You know, so interesting that you would use the word self-interest because that's one of the things that we do talk about with the nonprofit sector and nonprofit sector leadership. You know, Tony, I'm seeing at this point in time in history in our country, a lot of people that lived a certain way, especially people of a certain generation, moved through the pandemic, suffered tremendously in many different ways. And then I've had kind of like a reawakening to say, I'm not going to be doing the corporate thing. I'm going to go into service or I'm going to, you know, change my life in a certain way. And I'm wondering if that's part of this discussion. These things that upset us or jolt us a little bit that then caused us to reevaluate. Yeah, I want to say also, we came into existence before the pandemic. That's important because this is not a cottage industry here. Human beings are unsustainable. And we're socio-mathematicians here actually, at our core socio-mathematics. Why? Because we, by way of observation, long ago occurred to me that all all stationary empires to ever exist are not only gone, but they were disassembled and destroyed in precise fashion. When we're in the midst of any precision, anything mechanical, we are in the midst of a mathematical consideration. It occurred to me that what we call flawed is injured. We're breaking down just as an organ would break down if it were to get sick. We break down the same way every time. So that alerted me to something socio-mathematical is going on rather than a fault. We're scourged now. We're deeply injured beings. We're frightened beings. The things we see, the craziness, is the manifestation of fear. We're fearful. So that's a lot different in a scourge, isn't it? If we were to find a child that was crying saying that they were lost, who among us would not drop what we're doing to make sure that child got back to safety? Well, when we begin to look at ourselves as lost and frightened beings, maybe we'll like ourselves enough to preserve ourselves. But right now we're self-loathing. We don't deserve it. It's such an interesting thing because we hear that a lot, Tony, about nonprofit management, and you'll hear that. Are you fundraising like in a fear-based way? Are you navigating your leadership and changing your community in a fear-based manner? So it's fascinating to me that you would actually bring that up and point that out. Well, I know that this is called the nonprofit show. So let me talk about what I can help people with. If they're up and coming, I think with their most important points, they've already found out or they will find out the following, the work ethic. Your ideas already have merit. Now, are you ready to put in the work? And the work ethic is, whatever you think you'll need, multiply it by five. You're about to go into go to work. So only the most dedicated of founders should proceed. And also, you need compliance. Oh my goodness, compliance. If you are not locked down solid in compliance, everything will go bad from there, even starting a bank account. I mean, so your compliance is, you know, so have very good legal advice because, you know, and also here's this standard of quality. Start with the standard of quality. Do not ever compromise it. Do not ever go below it because people are really smart. And that is that, you know, we maintain intelligence and empathy here where you won't stay. It's that simple. And if our front door begins to look chipped and warped, that means what's behind that door is also the same. Yeah. So I wanted to impart that general information to your audience. Yeah, I like that. I appreciate that because I think that's one of the things that that we talk a lot about across the industry. And I'm sure you've heard this conversation before. And that is, you know, as a nonprofit, we're still a business. If we're not providing quality services to our communities, then we're not going to retain donors. We're not going to retain confidence in the funding sector. And it all goes away. So you're right. I mean, I do believe that we must be looking about all of these inputs to how we're managed, how we're looking at our behaviors and how we're looking for solutions and not just putting out that immediate fire. And so it's a really interesting thing. Talk to me a little bit about understanding human nature. I've got to ask you this, how often do people reach out and just say, I want to learn more about this entire ecosystem of being human so that I can be a better individual? I mean, it's a pretty heady conversation that I think sometimes people aren't willing to have. Yeah, they're not willing to have, but Clarity is our friend. Clarity is now our friend. Listen, we do videos on all. We're professional explainers. And there's a blame in judgment goes nowhere because blame is a threat to the human mind. Who accepts our blame? And nobody I know. So humans don't respond to that. So we will respond to an explanation. We're professional explainers here. Every single thing that we will do today, all eight billion of us, will spring from a past reality. And that past reality, our evolutionary timeline on this earth, once a poorly lit alley is now as vibrant as the Las Vegas strip, we know so much about how we got here and we're not in control. Again, a very, very fair way to put it. The minute we start sensationalizing, we're gone. So, you know, we are not acting. We are in crisis. We're in existential crisis. All eight billion of us, we think we don't have anything in common. Oh my, we are. We have so much in common. Like for instance, the present moment, all eight billion of us share the present moment. It's all beyond. So that's a far cry from we're so different. How different are we? We come from the same place. We're flying on the same spaceship or any other cliche you want to throw at it. I love that you said that. Yeah, we all the commonality is this moment in time. That's a cool thing to think about. Yes, but what got in the way of that? What got in the way of that? Well, here's what happened. We could not deduce our origin until 200 years ago when Charles Darwin, who the best friend we'd never met, put out a book called On the Origin of Species. It means that no human culture prior to that ever had a point of reference to define itself. So that meant that when that a default to paranoia was all we had available to us, who knew we came from the same place, which now is not in Genjaker. And by the way, some people may not be comfortable with evolution. So then I say, it's all good. It's all good. I mean, hold fast to your beliefs. But our central assumptions here for problem solving are that we all come from the same place and that that is not in Genjaker. And that our linear progression on this planet is so knowable. And that means we can determine who we are for the first time. It's a really interesting way to look at how we are, especially if leading a life of service. Because I think a lot of times, Tony, and and I don't know if you see this, but especially in the nonprofit sector in human services right now, there's a lot of blame and shame and, you know, really a negative we versus they kind of approach as opposed to saying we're all the same, you know, humanity. Well done. And here's why. Again, when you have an unnatural behavior, it's going to have a breakdown that is precise. Us versus them has never been more pronounced. Most people look out and see the sea of a mess. I don't. I look out and I see the only available rival place of increasing fear. Fear chooses safety in numbers. That explains suddenly the us versus them. It's a tribal 101. So now I'm explaining a mechanism as opposed to we're calling these choices. They're not. I mean, show me the cruelest of human hearts. I'll show you an injured heart. When we were born, we have 100,000 prior generations already packed into our DNA. These are compulsions and impulses that react that literally come to life 20 times faster than thought. So who do we think we are now that we're seeking sustainability, trying to push aside what is essentially Mount Everest in the way of compulsions and impulses that we think we sent to the basement. But I'm going to explain that I think that they think that they didn't go anywhere and that they're making the rules for modern humanity. We would need to understand that first and get a consensus on that so we can see ourselves differently and then wish to preserve ourselves right now. We're a self loading species. We don't like ourselves. We think we've been bad boys and girls. Well, we have it. We were knocked off of our deepest longings. Whose fault is that? Interesting. It's a really interesting way to start looking at human behavior and especially in this time. And I'm sure you hear this as well as I do. So much of what we talk about in order to influence or to build that new tribe or get support, whatever words you want to use, we do try and go back and think about the human experience and what we're at at our core. But this is a very difficult conversation to have. It depends. I'm getting better and better at explaining like our need to run away is noted. However, it is also unnatural. Here's why our ancestors, our evolving ancestors, sought the bad news every day. The bearer of good news had less value to our survival than the bearer of bad news. And so we could plan survival strategies, couldn't we? If we were quantify the bad news. And this happens today too. You, me, we all get up in the morning and our executive functions take over. They allow us to determine the obstacles for that day. And we get busy clearing those obstacles. I'm going to ask the entire human species to view itself safely, to escape what we see is natural, but there's nothing to fear. There are no mysteries. There are only things that need to be revealed. And that's why we're here. Clarity will educate you, not frighten you. So escapism is understood. However, it is the bad news that will keep us alive. So let's test that theory. You know, it's really interesting that you would say this because one of the things that I've noticed in the nonprofit sector is used to be for fundraising. Everybody would do like the sob story. And I hate to say this because it's so negative, but have that pity party to try and tug at the hard strings and get people to give their money. But now I'm seeing more of an intellectual path that says, this is the scientific information we have. This is the data. This is where we can go. This is how we can move the needle. You know, you might use the word impact or whatever, but the change is less benevolent and more intellectual. And I'm wondering if you're seeing that, you know, as you're having your discussions with noesis. Well, it made me put noesis together five years ago by a notion of observation. You know, we could determine the evolutionary triggers for all modern behavior. It's all notable now. And we could deduce the uselessness of these behaviors in the modern day. It will take decades. It will take decades. And my life would be long over if our state of mission is achieved. It took us 10,000 years to get into this mess. It's going to take a long time to get out of it. And by the way, I'm speaking to big business here. We're not coming for anybody. We're not asking anybody to give anything back. This is the awareness period of the mission. We are acting unnaturally. Unnatural behavior cannot persist in nature. When I go like that, one species just went extinct. Earth loses 150 a day. Let's get busy preserving ourselves in order to expand on our individual beliefs. So hold fast to your beliefs. But let's keep ourselves alive so we can expand on our many beliefs because they assist us in reaching the finish line of our lives. Interesting. Well, you know, it's hard to believe our time has gone so quickly. And this has been a fascinating thing to have you on the nonprofit show and to hear your perspective. And before we let you go, I'd love to ask you, you know, understanding history and looking forward and where you see your organization as it relates to, you know, the study of human behavior and navigating change. That is a big, you know, clarion call to most of these 1.8 million nonprofits in the country. And that is how do we navigate change and how do we look forward and understanding history? What are your comments about that? Thank you. We are here to unite all human beings on earth under the banner of species self preservation. We cannot unite politically, religiously, culturally. No, no, no, we're not ready. We can unite under a fourth banner that's now coming at us out of the mist and rather quickly. And that is that the mortality of the most remarkable species, perhaps in a galaxy, is visible on the horizon. And when that's true and when everyone sees it, we're in free fall. Again, a very reasonable way to put it. We must unite under the banner of self preservation while asking no one to give up anything in the near term. We'll disappear quickly if we do that. And we have got to, we've got to survive ourselves. We've got to allow all our present models to reorganize themselves painlessly. We have to do this. We won't survive perpetual conflict. We will not survive unnatural behavior. Well, it's been fascinating to have you on, Tony, and I want to make sure that we give everybody an opportunity to reconnect. Anthony Awal Jr. Tony, as we like to call him, founder and author of Noesis, the Noesis Project.com. Is that correct? Is it .com or .org? It's .com. I mean, it's about .org. .org was sold and now they're a profit making such wide intrusive. Okay. All right. I just, I saw that for a minute and then I was like, wait a minute, I better, I better verify that with you. Yeah, that's good. It's a good question. Tony has a book, The Human Injury, A Species in Crisis. Again, you can find that through the Noesis Project.com. Really been interesting to have you on today and to learn more about, you know, your thought process and the work that you're doing with this higher level of thinking. It really does have a lot of overlapping into our sector. I can see that and it's been really interesting to have you on. Hey again, everybody, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. Jared Ransom, the non-profit nerd herself will be back tomorrow. Again, we want to thank all of our presenting sponsors. They include Blumerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Your Part Time Controller, Nonprofit Thought Leader, Fundraising Academy at National University, Staffing Boutique, Nonprofit Nerd and Nonprofit Tech Talk. These are the folks that join with us day in and day out to have these amazing conversations like we've had with Tony Wall today. Tony, thank you so much. Again, thank you for the great opportunity. I appreciate it. It's been a lot of fun. Hey everybody, we'd like to end every episode of The Nonprofit Show with, I guess, Tony, we would call it our mantra and that is to stay well so you can do well. Thanks everybody. Tony, thank you.