 eSports, a show devoted to all things eSports. I'm your host, Catherine Norr. Today, my guest is Brandon Runhammer, the director of research, learning and simulation at AVI SPL. Our topic is virtual augmented and mixed reality in gameplay and streaming. Welcome, Brandon. Thanks for having me, Catherine. Alright, so I think the big question for a lot of our viewers is what is the difference between virtual augmented and mixed reality? Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, virtual reality is the conceptual consumer, whether you're using an Oculus or Viharo or kind of some kind of headset to be able to emulate a virtual reality, if you may, being able to play inside of environments, leveraging 360 degrees of interaction, where you're using augmented reality is kind of giving overlays and it's giving a different perspective where you could have, you know, your phone and a lot of people will use it for like when they're looking for something they want to buy and they want to see if it fits in their room. So they'll have an augmented reality overlay or we'll use it, we'll see it in eSports from a perspective of, you know, putting people in games, being able to have, you know, map layouts as they introduce new games and those kinds of things. And then a mixed reality is a combination of both. So being able to leverage a mixed reality environment so you can see and emulate that 360 degrees of virtual reality, but putting a real life individual or an overlay perspective within that environment and being able to interact completely. So if we're in the metaverse as it's being built, what, what about that would be augmented virtual or mixed reality? Yeah, so so metaverse is going to be typically strictly virtual reality. So it's your environments to be able to move throughout this created 360 degree graphical environment that you're moving throughout purchasing real estate in some aspects. A lot of real estate and a lot of manufacturers are actually leveraging the environment because there's so much capability for data tracking that they're leveraging the capability that they have for those data trackings to be able to like, as you walk through stores in the metaverse, they're seeing where people's eyes are and how they're tracking and what they're looking at to see what they want to purchase as they walk through these grocery stores and product placement. So there's a lot of research that goes on where serial companies and different kinds of manufacturers, they'll they'll sit there and they'll build fake stores, essentially, and be able to lay out product to see what sells better. It's why, you know, sugary cereals are typically on the bottom because kids can see them first, but here they have a free opportunity to be able to walk through a virtual aspect by the normal things, but still have the same interaction, but generate a lot of data from tracking your eyes. So when you talk about augmented reality, I think of trying on clothes or eyeglasses, is that would that be augmented reality? Yeah, so leveraging different kinds of perspectives and we'll take it one step further here in a second, but, you know, putting on glasses absolutely, seeing, making sure the frames fit to your size, making sure that they're not too big, not too small clothes, depending on what you think they're going to look like, or even to a car perspective, looking at different cars and having the color overlays and just different things from that perspective. We're starting to see one step further where we're leveraging two dimensional holograms in augmented reality for overlays that are becoming more AI platforms and like concierge services. So walking in, being able to talk to a small AI platform and being able to interact with that, but also choose clothing or be able to go through and select, you know, a specific candy or something like that. So we're starting to see the drive and consumerism a little bit more, which has been pretty cool to see. So when I, one of the applications that I could see in augmented reality would be at hair salon, where you could actually see what your hair could look like if you had a particular style. Is that true? Yeah, I mean, you could definitely. So depending on the graphic overlay, you would get a good perception and understanding of what your potential haircut could be, or even a beard. You know, I would probably prefer that. But no, yeah, there's definitely a capability for the potential of overlays and those perspectives. And even down to jewelry, we're starting to see some more things where engagement rings, you know, lab grown diamonds are a big thing. They're starting to evolve because of that. You know, they're not always readily accessible. They don't typically have stores, so they have an augmented overlay that you can, you know, you can sit there and you can look at the diamond and see if it's something you like and say yes or no. Another thing that we're leveraging augmented reality for is meetings. So a lot of large companies are taking everybody's got a smartphone and everybody's got a calendar linked in some fashion to their network, their network backbone, so they can leverage custom apps to be able to say, hey, you have a meeting in 15 minutes, you're in a new property, let me use an augmented reality map and you can walk through the building using your phone and it starts to give you arrows and stuff like that. We're starting to see a lot of geocaching in that way. Pokemon Go, everybody knows about that. So those would all be augmented reality overlays and different capabilities for that kind of application. So when you, one thing that I did on my show was Dexter Carr Jr., he was on and he, we entered a kind of, I guess it was a virtual reality. We had, we had avatars and we entered this and we got to see the space of this kind of conference space and then Dexter Carr's business, he had like, you know, a portion where like we could sit at a desk and we could see his, in the background, like his, his company logo and stuff like that. Would that, that's kind of a virtual reality situation. Is that true? Yeah, so, so we leverage, our company leverages a platform called Modus VR. And what we do is, you know, a huge portion of our company is conference rooms, experience centers, you know, what, what the potential of the art of the future is. But, you know, our core applications for technology is, is boardrooms and large scale boardrooms, multiple boardrooms all over, all over the globe. So what we can do is we can leverage that platform, Modus VR in Oculus and be able to lay out your, what your potential conference room is going to look like. So we can add desks, we can remove desks, we can have you seated somewhere, we can show you what this screen would look like on this wall. We can show you all of the different applications of what kind of audio capabilities are going to be in the ceiling, what it aesthetically is going to look like, what sound panels can look like. So we are leveraging those tools to be able to engage the customers a little bit more. And it does give them a, a good perception of being in the room and what the potential of, of their building or what their office space could look like. Sure. And, you know, one, one thing that was really fun is attending conferences in the virtual reality settings where we could do fun things like, like in the setting that we had with Dexter Carr Jr. is we could dance, we could shoot baskets, we could go on a speedboat you know, wander around. And then in one that I was in, we could go fishing. So I would think so with the, the meeting things, do you have opportunities for networking where the avatars or, you know, the attendees can do those kind of activities? Yeah, so actually I'm also a member with the ARVR Association. And one of the cool things that they do, especially during the pandemic, when they weren't having in-person meetings, was leveraging platforms like Hopin and a couple of others, even the Metaverse and being able to have social mixers with your avatars within those environments. So you're meeting with people from all over the world using and leveraging your avatar, but you're also being able to interact and engage with them just as you would in a normal space. The only difference is, is this one's just graphically generated. So do you know whether people are more likely to engage in conversation or networking if they're an avatar versus if they're in-person? Yeah, so I mean, there's there's definitely been some studies about individuals becoming more willing to be open, you know, a lot of people can hide. It's just like having, you know, a gamer name, the ability to be able to hide behind your player, your avatar. It really does give you the potential to kind of break out of your shell. Myself, I could literally talk to a wall, even if it didn't talk back. But the reality of it is, is there's a lot of individuals that that this is an opportunity for them to to generate a network without having to leave the house without being involved with individuals beyond a digital platform. And it still gets the business point across. You know, the the realities are becoming extremely more realistic when you, if you would have asked me that five years ago, I would say, well, still still developing. But, you know, it's it's it's really gotten a pretty strong hold in the moment. It's only growing. Sure. So let's talk about AVSPL. Can you tell us about your company? Yeah, so we are the world's largest AV integrator. We deal with a lot of Fortune 500 companies. We do a lot of enterprise applications. I work for a group within AVSPL called the experiential technology group. And what we get to do is we get to play with all the fun toys. So we create EBCs, experienced business centers. We get to look at museums, so Museum of the Future being one of those applications. I am specific to health care simulation, eSports, augmented virtual realities. So we get to involve ourselves with clients that are pushing the edge, the art of the possible, understanding, you know, what they have a vision of what they want. And we get to push the technology to the limit to be able to accomplish those goals. Working with everybody from Amazon to Microsoft all the way down to local universities that are developing eSports programs. Sure. And since this is the wide world of eSports, let's talk about eSports and those applications that you're working on. What can you do to make make a program more interesting in terms of those applications? Yeah, so, you know, because VR is is becoming more cost, you know, affordable, one of the cool things that we are starting to see a trend is a lot more VR labs for game development for graphic development, for environment development. So it's really cool to be able to create and program the environment on your computer, but it's cooler to be able to interact with that environment in a full 360 virtual application. And we're seeing a lot more drive to create these VR labs with mocap capabilities, motion capture to be able to see how avatars are interacting within the environments, how their environments look, what happens when you get to the end of a map. But then we take it one step further and there are universities and eSports programs that are really starting to hone in that Formula One perspective. It's one of the biggest eSports applications. But when you look at what you can potentially do from a simulation perspective in VR, you can literally put someone in a car, in a 4D environment and be able to drive you know, cars that we're never going to actually be able to drive. It was interesting because I was doing some research and the Driftmasters European Championship last year allowed a the Driftmaster champion to drive in their World Champion European drift car. And so he had to go through this whole little process of, you know, driving with a driver to make sure that he could actually do it. But taking a simulation driver, World Champion simulation driver and putting him into a real car at the end of it, the driver was like it's like this guy's been doing it for three or four years and it's incredible. So being able to simulate something to that degree is just incredible. I would think that that would be a fantastic tool for a driver's education, but also even a terrific tool for older people who are challenged with whether, you know, the question of whether they are capable of driving. What do you think about that? Yeah, and and and I absolutely agree with that. And, you know, you can do so many different scenarios, you know, you're creating this environment so you can have someone crossing the street at any point of time. And, you know, what did that last stop sign say? You can literally have them stop and you're not putting anybody in danger at that perspective or in a driver's ed, you know, realm, maybe they'll pay more attention because your environment, you don't have a cell phone that you can grab. You don't have these things. You don't have those things interrupting you. But you can in the in the game play, you could have your cell phone ringing. You could have music playing. You could have all of these different things that we are normally adapt to or some people say they're adapt to and it gives you a realistic application to where you can you can differentiate whether they're ready for it or they're not. Sure. You know, it's interesting when you look at applications, the one application that, you know, we've addressed on my show before was VR tennis. But when you're looking at applications for not only using VR or possibly augmented reality for a sport, but, you know, in terms of competition, but also for improving your ability to play in real life. What are your what's your knowledge of that? Yeah, so I love golf, believe it or not. And I living in Florida, so, you know, it's kind of one of those things you have to love. And there is a VR application called Golf Plus and they do a fantastic job with emulation. And we were doing some research on their platform. And it was interesting because, you know, they've always come out and said publicly, look, this is not to replace golf. It is to, you know, give you the capability to play golf in off times. And I think we were doing a podcast and we were recording it on like a Tuesday afternoon. And I was like, I wonder how many people are actually playing this game right now. And there were 10,000 people online playing this game at that. It's a Tuesday afternoon. And it's just very interesting because I started to get involved with it. And it was it's really intriguing. And it doesn't replace the real sport, but it is a blast. And in the last since the end of last year to roughly the end of this year, there's been almost 10 million rounds of golf played on this platform. That's insane. I mean, absolutely insane. So, you know, the foot traffic is there that the drive and the want to play these sports, not to mention if there is someone that has a disability can't go out on the course, can't can't be involved in certain applications and certain sports. This gives them the available environment to be able to interact and to be those individuals. Maybe they were in a car accident and they used to be a world class tennis player, but they can't play anymore and it's still their love. This gives them the flexibility and capabilities to be able to still do that. You know, there's an environmental advantage of that as well, because golf courses have a significant environmental impact in terms of use of water and use of land. And so I could see where and also in terms of just looking at individual players, it's a game that requires a lot of money and requires a lot of time. Yeah, I see advantages here in terms of cost, whether it's personal cost or environmental cost and how doing it in virtual reality, it can actually save in those ways. Yeah, and it's a huge huge benefit. So, you know, you you also get to interact, like I get to play with individuals that I normally would never obviously play with because they're in different parts of the world. And it does. It comes back to that whole networking application. I do a lot of work and a lot of business, you know, around golf. We do a lot of business with the golf industry, which is really cool. But it gives you the capability and the flexibility to be involved in all aspects of that industry. So obviously golf recognizes this. So they're investing in it. It's the same thing with shooting sports. Everybody who who does, you know, shooting sports, whether it's sporting clays or trap or skeet, you have these capabilities in these different games and first person shooter, obviously. But if you're looking at Call of Duty and those kinds of things. Individuals that are gun collectors or individuals that, you know, do IDPA or kind of competition shooting, you know, those are those are different things that can also be emulated in VR. Ammo is a huge cost, you know, and at times it's hard to get. So it really does give the availability to cut down costs to still get that muscle memory, the muscle reactions to be on point. And it and it still gives that that virtual reality kind of reality mix capabilities. So one of my expertise is sports risk management. So I have to add that to the mix. One of one thing, if you look at certain sports like gymnastics or diving, I'm going to look at gymnastics. OK, I would think that when you're improving your skills and trying to add a new skill, maybe a very difficult skill that there might be an application to do it virtually before you do it in real life. Do you think that that would be an application? It potentially could be, you know, my daughter is in gymnastics. So it's funny that you brought that up, but I could totally see where, you know, if if if the gymnastics program had a motion capture suit that their older students were wearing, like so they're they're heavier competition students. Obviously, my daughter is not in that realm yet. She's still very young. But once you get into a certain level of gymnastics, having that capability to be able to try something virtually to kind of manipulate the mind to get over potential fears or potential drags or something like that, I feel like there is definitely a capability and a potential for risk mitigation at that point. And the nice thing there is, you know, it's the same perspective of looking down and seeing a balance beam. Your mind is still giving you the perception that if you fall, if you step to one side or the other, you're going to fall and in the virtual reality, you would fall. So it does, it definitely gives you the capabilities to be able to be involved. I think that there has to be a little bit more development from a motion capture perspective, but absolutely realistic. So how is virtually virtual reality being used in education and schools? Yeah, so virtual reality is, you know, in in in primary schools and in and you know, secondary schools as well, you've got virtual field trips. So students that may not potentially be able to experience certain things, being able to have them in an environment for learning. That's one perspective. There's also evaluations that are able to be made. So you can have learning programs for handicap students for them to see how they can leverage certain things, whether motor skills, sensitive motor skills are are are fluent and capable and depending on where they should stand on the spectrum and what kind of scaling there is there. They're also leveraging it for game development, graphic design. So being able to see your environments, your creation, that's how it's being leveraged there as well. So there's there's multiple tiers of how it's being leveraged. Sure. And so what do you see the future of VR and augmented reality and mixed reality? So I'll start with mixed reality first, because I think mixed reality gives such a great perception when you're coming to broadcast. Everybody knows Mandalorian and that was a digital production. So they had a digital backdrop. I think that that's only going to continue to grow just as people are using green screens and those kinds of things. Here, it allows you to leverage an environment that you can literally change behind you. And you can do it on a much smaller scale to be able to leverage their their their streams a little bit better to be able to really create some cool environments, some cool context behind them. And they're also able to monetize it with branding and those kinds of things from sponsorships, being able to change it and flicker every 30 seconds so that way they can make that money. Another thing as we start to see the futuristic the future aspects of VR, I think that there's going to be a lot more game development. The resolutions are only going to get better and the environments are only going to grow. You know, right now it's a very limited platform for what kind of games are being played. Everything from onward to echo VR. So you have these different games that are starting to evolve in eSports and I think that that's going to continue. I think that more eSports arenas for virtual reality are going to start to open. And I think that that is not only cool for the gamer, but also from a spectator perspective. You know, one of the cool things there is you get to see them interact within an environment. So in the current moment, a lot of these arenas have like checkered floors to be able to check the mocap and stuff like that. But let's let's take that to the next level. Let's have projection mapping on the floor and be able to actually show the environment of where they're playing. So I think that those are things to come and, you know, from a spectator application, it's going to be substantially greater. Sure. So do you think in the future there's still room for non VR and Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I think that there there is still room for for standard games, for standard consoles. I mean, you have you have glass classic tournaments for a reason because the nostalgia of it, people still enjoy doing that. You know, a lot of times I say we as a society have become numb to the idea of new technology. And the reason is is because it's so prevalent. It's so readily available that for us to be wowed by something in technology, it truly has to be something dynamically different and VR in the current moment as it starts to evolve. It is that that wow factor and it'll start to kind of fluctuate and go up and down and at the end of the day from a business perspective, let's be real, we have a lot of business professionals that are going to come into an office and not want to put on a headset just because they've worked all morning to get ready. And that's just the reality of it is there are certain individuals and certain people that won't want to put on a headset, but they could also get motion sickness, which then VR is definitely not for them. So there is so many different variables when it comes to VR that I still think that there's room for traditional eSports for the still growing market of console eSports. I think that this is just another silo. Terrific. And so if someone watching is interested in contacting you, how can they reach you and what are what kind of business are you looking for? Yeah, so no business is too small if, you know, we we are the largest AV company. I understand that we're in we have 50 offices in the United States. I believe we're above 14 outside of the United States in this moment. You can contact us at xtg.com or xtg at avispl. And you can contact me at brandon.brunhammer at avispl.com and, you know, some of the things that we're looking for anything university, higher education, museums, experience centers, things that are really going to stretch the the creativity and and truly the environments. Fantastic. Well, Brandon, thank you so much. You've had so much to offer and I've learned a lot. Well, I appreciate you having me and I appreciate the time as well. It's been a pleasure. All right. So thank you to our viewers for joining us today in two weeks. My guest will be Jason Gowertz to talk about eSports travel. See you then. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. 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