 So good evening everyone and welcome to our last event of the conversation series on authority. My name is Alice and I'm a third year student in the Master of Architecture program at Columbia University. I am originally from Sao Paulo, Brazil, and one of the co-directors of Latin GSEP. Latin GSEP is an interdisciplinary student organization in the Columbia's Graduate School of Architecture Planning and Preservation dedicated to the promotion, discussion, and reflection of contemporary issues and ideas in Latin America. The overarching thing as selected by Latin GSEP for the semester is authority. Authority refers to the acknowledgement of the existence of oneself through the capacity to recognize the other as such a singular subjective person. Authority is an essential process to achieve empathy, the capacity to put ourselves in someone's shoes. If we cannot see the other, we cannot respect them, or if we can only see the other as a negation of oneself, we cannot relate. This semester Latin GSEP is working on a variety of projects related to being of authority, such as our new publication named Pathio. Pathio welcomes submissions from all creators with focus on Latin American subjects. We invite you to submit any project, provocation, interview, or imagination that you have created that addresses the theme of authority in Latin American context. For more information and submission guidelines, please check Pathio's website and Instagram account. We will be dropping the links in the Zoom chat for those who are interested. We will also like to take this opportunity to thank the support of Professor Anna Ditch, who co-created the series with us, as well as the collaboration of GSEP, the Institute for Latin American Studies, Kulume Govo Centurio, and Santiago, and many other organizations. Tonight, Authority and the Third Landscape recapitulates on the accumulated knowledge from previous events, by centering the conversation on the meaning of authority and its spatial implications. Starting from the alumni conversation in before during and after GSEP, the event gathered alumni with a shared identity of being from Latin America in the United States, but bringing different backgrounds, perspectives, and experiences in their field. The second event, Mapping and Authorship, invited the guests to address questions of authorship in mapping as an exercise of recognition to define the other, meaning the regulation of visibility or invisibility of the Latin community in Latin America and the United States. The third event, Urban Fabric and Scale, invited emerging practices working in Latin America to dialogue about the synergies and ruptures of the urban space in the design approach. The talk was ingrained in the specificity of their localities, bringing forth the discussion around identity. So, tonight, we would like to welcome you and our panelists, Ana Maria Duracalisto, Renato Simbalista, David Govner, Eger Apochi. Tonight's event aims to investigate how authority is represented or acted upon by different groups in Latin America. We will also touch upon how issues of identity and authority are reshaped when we expose the diversity of experiences and imaginaries around Latin America. Without further ado, I would like to introduce today's keynote speaker and moderator Professor Ana Beach. Ana is an adjunct associate professor at Columbia GSAP. She's an architect and urban designer, who for the past 20 years has worked between Sao Paulo and New York, using design to promote interaction. She's currently leading research on the urbanization of Brazilian Amazon in the project in a genetic and urbanization in the Amazon. She is also principal at the Design Studio Arc Architetura da Convivência. So, I will stop sharing and let Professor Anders to take the lead. I'm going to share my screen. Can you see my screen? Perfect. Okay, so thank you everyone for being here, especially thanks for those who are in places where it's really late. I'm going to be very brief so we can get our guests speaking. I'm going to start with this phrase from Eliane Brun. Nothing is more authoritarian than to tell someone that they are not what they say they are. In this article, the origin of the Baré people, Bras França, an elder from the Baré, asks himself what would his great-grandfathers say if they could compare their good lives with his destroyed one. They would, he suggests, say they were not Indians. They were Baré de Sana, Baniwa, Hopi, Tucano, Araueté, Guarani, Kayová, Kamayura, Shavante, Achaninka, Asurini, Yanomami, Tembe, Surui, Guajajara, and so many others with their own cosmovision and their own language. Today in Latin America, we're still giving names or we are taking them away to a population that is highly plural, creating an illusion of a minority other, that in reality is larger in numbers and fictional in color. This idea of an opposite other seems to be more the fabrication of a dominant voice, in our case the voice of industrial capitalism, with its dependence on endless cycles of production and consumption, and with a white face. It's a story that started in Europe in the 14th century with the detachment of the power that emanated from land and the transition from a rural embedded world with an agrarian economy to the world of the city, and then to that of industry, where the modern imaginary is structured around notions of individual rights, those of life, liberty and property. In this new imaginary, civility became the token for citizenship and educated politeness, the opposite of the savage of the uncivilized. As we can see from these terms, the underlying contrast is really between life in the forest and life in the city. Savage comes from the French Sauvage, wild, and from the Latin silvaticus of the woods. Fast forward six centuries and we all kind of know where we are with our climate, with our economy, with our health, and so on. Some of us though have started to be skeptical about it. In 2016, the Washington Post reported on a survey conducted with millennials by Harvard University, where 55% of them said they did not support capitalism. In 2018, Vogue Teen Salon and Money Watch reported on the reaction by millennials to a CNN article. 66% of them said they did not save for retirement because they believed capitalism would not exist by the time they were 65. And you may have seen this also in the New York Times this weekend. So, as we pivot our perspective to rebalance our concepts of what is rural and what is urban, and what it means to be savage and what it means to be civilized. Our attention center again in nature, in the forest. And you will hear Anna Maria talk a little bit about this in a minute. We center in those who belong to the forest. Those who Ailton Krenaki in his little book entitled ideas to postpone the end of the world has ironically called the sub-civilized. The Indians, the blacks, the traditional river in communities, the aboriginal, all of those who at the margins have this organic and civilized layer that has kept them grasped holding really, really tight to the earth. To a circular culture that has quite a different sense of hierarchy between what is human, what is natural, or divine and subjective, where the mundane routine elements of life are embedded in a sense of divine importance that correlates and connects people. Nature, things. What David Copenawa has taught us the Anomami called the Shapiri, the spirit of things of the great machine earth. In this imaginary objects are transformed into subjects. Everything is person and interchangeable. What Viveiros de Castro has coined as the Ameridian Perspectivism. The cosmological calendar is correlated to natural social and productive renewable cycles that defy our anxious fragmentation of time to establish modes of production that leverage nature without destroying it. Borders are fluid and territories demarcated by its inherent natural shape, as well as its historic cultural use, rather than superimposed property lines. And you will hear David touch on this in showing his work in the favelas of Venezuela. The marks of this collective individual also add different meanings to the communal use of these spaces. And Renato, although from a different perspective, we'll talk about notions of common property when he talks next. But maybe above all what all of these communities, these stories, traditions, songs and resistances show us is an expanded range of possibilities of different narratives, different stories that maybe could help us, us, the civilized, expand our own subjectiveness to create a new landscape, a third landscape. That is global, because it's securely anchored in what is very local and is universal because it is multiple. And Gerard will talk about this when she explains her experience in Tenor de Poder in Sao Paulo. So now I would like to introduce our four guests and speakers, whose work and experiences, I think are helping to shape what I have called this third landscape. We're going to start with Ana Maria Calisto. We're going to then talk here Renato, and then Davi, and then Gerard. Ana Maria is an Ecuadorian architect and urban environmental planner. She received doctors at the Urban Planning Department of UCLA on the history of urbanization in the Amazon basin, with a focus on the oil urbanisms of Ecuador. Currently, she is visiting faculty at Yale University. Durán Calisto co-founded the design firm Studio A0, with her husband and partner, Jaskram Jass Calirai in Quito in 2002. And Studio A0 advocates for social environmentally responsible design and construction in urban, rural and forested contexts. They will hear her, she's extremely intelligent, eloquent woman, who I secretly hope one day will run for office and help us with all of this third landscape thing. Renato Simbalista is a very, very good friend, but he's also an associate professor at the University of Sao Paulo and Uninovi. He is one of the founders of FICA, a collectively owned real estate fund in Sao Paulo that protects land from speculation. And he is also the president of Instituto Polis, a civil organization that aims for the construction of just sustainable democratic cities. And then we have Davi Gouverneur, who has the most beautiful drawings I hope he shows us today. He's an associate professor of practice at the University of Pennsylvania and professor emeritus of Universidad Rafael Urdaneta in Venezuela. Among other things, his professional practice focuses on urban plans and projects for the rehabilitation of areas affected by extraordinary natural events. The improvement of existing formal settlements and planning ahead for emergent informal occupation, as well as the rehabilitation of cultural landscapes. An area of research focuses on the notion of informal amateurs, which culminates in his book called planning and design for future informal settlements, shaping the self-constructed city. And then finally we're going to hear Gerard, Gerard Poti, is one of the incredible Guarani-Mimbia Young leaders who fought for the legal recognition of the territory in the Atlantic Forest in the outskirts of the city of Sao Paulo in Brazil. And in 2014 was granted the first legal step toward its legalization. Since then, she has guided her community in the occupation of the new land, and through agroflorestation, a very beautiful work of agroflorestation. She is managing the forest to its original environmentally balanced state. She has collected and successfully planted traditional Guarani seeds and has more than 30 types of sweet potatoes, as well as eight types of Guarani corn. So I would like to introduce now, Anna, do you want to share images. Thank you, Professor. Thank you, Anna, for that amazing introduction. I mean, it was an incredible lecture in and of itself. Beautiful. I'm going to share my screen. Okay, can you see it now? Yes, we can see. Okay, it's a bit slower the computer, but now it's starting. Okay, so I've been thinking a lot about in terms of these word alter, which refers to others about the title of the book, The Ecologies of Others, that some of you may have read. There are also books by the anthropologist Philippe de Scola, who's, who's been lots of his time in the Amazon and, and also specifically in the Ecuadorian Amazon with the Atrar and the Schwart people. And I think it's an incredible, incredibly interesting statements, two of the titles of his books and of course his books are amazing, but the titles just have glued to my brain. The Ecologies of Others, which I think is, is an interesting way of introducing the topic today in a more general fashion. And the other one is a book he has, I read it in Spanish, it's titled La Selva Culta, which some of you may have read as well and it totally refers to the critique that Anna was launching in terms of precisely reversing the prejudices and the notions that about the savages of Amazonia as so often in colonial viewpoints, it used to describe incredibly civilized peoples and that's what he's trying to reverse by calling the book La Selva Culta, it was published in the late 80s or early 90s, I believe. And when I was young, it deeply marked me in terms of how I viewed Amazonia, which was actually introduced to me, believe it or not, not in Ecuador but in Brazil. Because the first Amazonian city that I ever visited was Manaus and Manaus left a very deep mark in me when I was 14 or 15 years old and I was completely shocked by these ginormous city in nestled in the middle of of Amazonia. Just in terms of the provocation that you have put on the table for us tonight in terms of what does alterity mean and I'm thinking about words that we associate with the notion of alter a both as noun and as verb alteration but also alternative to alter to change to transform and in terms of time also alternate go back and forth. And of course we associated with the alter ego which has to do even with the otherness within our own selves, and in Spanish you know we speak of the odd credit, which has been an important notion in Latin America precisely because of these these encounter that marked us in the, at the end of the 15th century but continues to mark us today. And then if I put that provocation together with the other one, the notion of the third landscape and how these otherness is manifested in the territory. I feel that in Latin America, these, these third landscapes or these altered landscapes and this can go both in, you know, a very positive or a very negative direction, but that it also has to do with the notion of the landscape of others, and with the culture of others. The notion of alterity doesn't belong just to the West and to the, the colonial pursuit of the West in Latin America, which we all descend as mestizos. But it's, it's an, it's a concept that is embedded in all cultures, for example, the water and it call us the kowote, the kowote are the non water and is, you know, and it's interesting for me to see that in every single language, there's a notion to name those who do not belong to the community who do not belong to this specific culture or civilization. So, so that's something that I feel we need to keep in mind in terms of the notion of otherness, and also the fact that when these two ontologies clashed in the 16th century during the conquest, that, that the idea of the other was handled and conceptualized in a very different way from the perspective of, of the original peoples of the Americas that as Anna pointed out are very hard to name because all words that we use are very colonial, and have a deep, complicated history, words like indigenous Amerindian, what have you. And on the other hand, the Europeans that we were arriving into these continents, and in their, you know, these, these ontological clash emerged, and that there was a huge shift in the Americas from a culture that is deeply spiritual, and that saw the coming of Europeans as almost like the coming of some of the spirits in their cosmologies like Miracocha, in the case of the Andes, but in Mesoamerica, there was an analog, an analogous God that was being expected, whereas from the perspective of Europe it was exactly the opposite. The beings coming into the Americas were seen almost as, you know, a spiritual almost as divine in a way, but the Europeans reacted in exactly the opposite direction. They were discussing in Spain whether the people that they have had encountered in the Americas have a soul or not. So it was the opposite, you know, and within that ontology, there was some sort of a bestialization, that's a tough one in English. But you know, in, this is not a culture that has a relationship with other organisms that is horizontal and about interdependencies and interrelations, like the quote unquote Amerindian Cosmo vision. In other words, there's a pyramid in terms of the understanding of live and animals are below human and everything, you know, and plants are below animals, and even below them in minerals. So these are two very different ontologies coming together in one territory in one series of incredibly diverse ecologies and landscapes and, and cultures. So today is simply the outcome of this first encounter that substituted a market system that was very different in the pre-Columbian period, which was based on reciprocity with a market that was very asymmetrical and that was based on exploitation. The market that was inaugurated in the 16th century, century when modernity is born is a market that has simply accelerated and become intensified, but the logic is, is the logic that was inaugurated when the Americas were encountered by the Europeans. You know, you know, talking about the alterations and the alter landscapes in Latin America, we cannot cease to be shocked even in our lifetime I mean this picture is from the early 70s I was born in 1971. So I have seen the alteration of these landscapes in this last peak of capitalism and modernization, which I think was still a little bit more benign back in the 70s in the 90s it went out of control. And whether they're landscapes of extraction that is a formal type of extraction like in the case of these open mind pit, or an informal type of extraction, like in the case of these gold mining area in Brazil. There is similar patterns in Peru, in Colombia, in Ecuador, and the other side of these alterity within the urban landscapes I was thinking looks like this in Latin America. Again, you have this notion of alterity of the orders of the formal order, quote unquote, and the informal order, quote unquote, the order of those who managed to benefit from these political and economic system and the ones that are, you know, referred to as the surplus humanity by Davis, which are all the people that are left out, which in Latin America in our cities we're talking about between 30 to 80% of the population. So we're not discussing minorities here, we're definitely, definitely discussing majorities, majorities that are definitely not benefiting from the way in which our economic models are working right now, based on extract is extractivism and the primary economy. In the Amazon specifically, 80% of urbanization is of this nature. It's self built. It's entropic. It is not part but simply and a negative externality and outcome of the global capitalist system. Of course, what do you have in the opposite pole of this informality standardization, modernization, quote unquote development, quote unquote, a progress, this is the one of the projects for me, I guess I mean a video in in Manaus and it's precisely the opposite impulse of the modernizing of turning everybody into an equal, but in the face of a very specific culture is a very Eurocentric in stands underneath these, these modernization process. But of course what's happening in Latin America, you have the type of practice that you already engaged in one of your panels. And then you have the notion that is looking at the vernacular at that otherness that has been systematically excluded as poor as undesirable and retrieving these values and this is happening at all scales. I feel that I'm looking at specifically in Amazonia, and I don't have time to go. Unfortunately, deep into these but there's a lot of accruing evidence that is demonstrating that Amazonia was a highly quote unquote urbanized area and why, why am I using quote unquote, because these were not cities in the Mesopotamian. These were not cities in the Greco-Roman sense in terms of walled sales surrounded by countries surrounded by a rural area, very dual and then surrounded by a hinterland or a forest. There are agro ecological systems in which agroecology is completely intertwined with habitat management and with clusters of settlement systems that have differential hierarchies. In Amazonia they were pretty heterarchical, but what archaeologists are demonstrating today and this is going to be a leap of faith because I don't have time to show you all the evidence. The planning system that was born in the Amazon in terms of these clusters of population embedded in a highly anthropogenic agroecological landscape that includes the domestication and the management of forests. This system is the one that that migrated to the Andes, you know, through the tributaries like the Ucayali, or the Madeira, or the Napo, and the system that migrated up to the north through the Orinoco, the Casiquare, the Orinoco into the Caribbean, the Arawax were amazing sailors, and, you know, all the way into Central America and eventually Mesoamerica because the principles of design are very similar. The forms vary immensely. I'm not trying to essentialize here, the diversity, the cultural diversity that the Americas displayed in the 16th century is beyond description, not just linguistically, but also from the perspective of urban form. I'm talking about the underlying principles that could be described as some sort of, again, the problems with language as an Amerindian ontology of the city, which in contemporary terms could be fairly described as an agroecological urbanism. And these are the underlying principles that you find in the Waka systems of Lima, that you find in Tijuana Co in Bolivia, that you find in the Mayan system of the Alte Petals, or the Nawa system, I'm sorry, the Nawa system of the Alte Petals or the Maya system of the Cas or the Mixtec system of the news. And it's fascinating to see that elements like what is called the Waruwaru in the Peruvian Andes or Chinampas in Mexico or Camisones in some other places in principle, whether they're in the Vene or in Quito or in Mexico City or in the Paraná, they are similar. They're, you know, principles that have to do with engaging nature in a way that potentializes it. So these, you know, the peoples in the Americas were incredible landscape builders. But taking into account the fact that they were very spiritual cultures, I think that rather than speaking in terms of geo, just terraformers or geoformers, we would have to say that they were doing geo poetics, bio poetics, eco poetics, because landscapes were sacred. And this is a book that has deeply marked me in terms of helping me to understand that city and territory are inseparable in the Americas to build in the ancient Americas to build cities to build territory and Jose Canciano Amico has done a superb job at drawing how natural landscapes were transformed into productive landscapes that now we confuse for nature. So we talk about Amazonia from a naturalist perspective, and we forget that it was highly anthropogenic. We talk about the Andean landscapes also, often forgetting that they're highly anthropogenic. The Kocha systems in the Andes that we see right now and we think, wow, what a beautiful landscape. They're actually a two a large extent built by the Andean peoples. And they used amazing strategies to build the landscape. This is the Kocha system, for example, we see them everywhere in the Andes. Well, these were excavated to reach the phreatic level of the water to bring the water up, then it has all the carrisos around it, the totora, and these mounds, it's completely artificial, but it looks very natural to us. And ultimately, the point that Canciano Amico is trying to make and I couldn't agree more with him and with lots of other architects and archaeologists and historians that are looking at the pre-Colombian period is that in the Americas, the city is the pinnacle of a territory of a whole transformation of the territory that supports each cluster within a territorial constellation or series of clusters whose underlying understanding. I wouldn't want to call it geometry because that's too formal and too rigid whose understanding underlying understanding of urbanity as a territorial constellation is ultimately a Amazonian. So, you know, suddenly this quote unquote savage space, the more you study it, the more you realize that is a highly civilized space that has given us one of the most brilliant planning systems in the world that everybody overlooks because everything is supposed to be backward, frozen in time, undeveloped, unprogressive, et cetera, et cetera. And I just want to call by, I do want to wrap up by sharing with you a concept that a quichua friend and quichua shared with me that the quichus use a lot, quichus in Peru, quichus in Ecuador, which is the concept of the Nyaopa and it's another concept that is, you know, appears with different words in many cultures in the Americas, which is the idea in a way of Nyaopa is used to refer to past events as much as it is used to refer to future events. So I always think when I feel like overwhelmed and important in the face of what's happening in Amazonia specifically, I think about Nyaopa, because I think, okay, Sacha forest, Sacha Nyaopa, the rebirth of the forest. So I think, okay, that forest that was built by these incredible human beings who've died by the millions due to epidemics like the one we are experiencing today, not just in the 16th and 17th centuries, every single time we penetrate the forest, missionaries, or soldiers, or colonos, or land gravers, what have you, Native Amazonians die off and die off and die off. It's been a perpetual genocide in terms of pandemics. And every time I, you know, I feel like important, I think, okay, Sacha Nyaopa, the forest and its peoples will be reborn. Because at this point in climate change history, there's no other way out. If Amazonia falls, we fall with it, have no doubt. And Amazonia is falling. And a Brazilian scientist that whom I spoke with the other day whose name I unfortunately I can't remember, told me something that remained vividly in my mind when we were discussing climate change and Amazonia. He said it's very easy for us to imagine a melting glacier. It's tangible. We can see it, we can see the iceberg, the glacier melting. Amazonia is exactly the same. Imagine that if we reach a certain temperature, Amazonia will melt down, whether we burn it or not, it doesn't matter. Beyond a certain temperature and a certain point, Amazonia will become a savannah, which is also the argument of Carlos Novni. But to think of it in terms of the analogy with an iceberg was really shocking to me. It's irreversible. It's one of those, you know, phenomenon that we're going to have to deal with, but with that I'm closing and sorry if I took, I don't even know what time it is. So I'm going to turn my microphone off. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much for your presentation. Gracias. Osvaldo. I just wanted to ask if she's looking at the chat, if she wants us to continue making the translation. I think she's better. I'm just trying to see if Jerá wants us to continue translating for her. Jerá, você quer que continue traduzindo no chat ou não? É, o microfone dela não tá funcionando. Agora. Oi. Leandro, umas coisas também, depois você me coloca a par de tudo. Porque vai ser muito cansativo também pra vocês. Tá bom. Então a gente já te chama. Eukidia, I would like now to, I'm sorry, everyone, I'm just trying to sort out a technical problem with Jerá. I would like to call Renato to present his, to make his talk. Olá todos, hi everybody. Thank you so much, Anna, and thank you so much for this amazing group for inviting me. Congratulations for not just the program but the magazines as well. I am thinking about submitting something to this amazing magazine sometime, maybe not this edition. Well, it's not that easy to talk about after Anna Maria, and while she was talking was here reframing the beginning of my talk and I would like to remember Max Weber's one of Max Weber's papers when he talks about two different social roles which are the prophets and the priests. Anna had a prophet talk and I'm just about to begin a priest talk about the very small micro specific project and I statement and this is what I'm talking about. I hope you'll be able to adapt your lenses from the micro micro civilizatorian epistemological thing for this like kind of a small activist and also bureaucratic and administrative is the talk that I'm about to begin. Let's see if I can share the screen. Yes, we can see. So if you I have a very strong academic background I am a trained architect but I've been a professor my whole life and I have been a professor and at the same time an activist until 2011 when I became a full job professor at the University of São Paulo which is very like rainy kind of university in in Brazil a very good university very important one but at the same time like a university in itself and it made me quite uncomfortable because after many years of sharing my time between activism and research academic academia and so on. I felt myself very annoyed about some concepts that were circulating in the university and one of them was gentrification. Everybody in Brazil was talking about gentrification we were in 2011 in the middle of a very important for your state. And everybody was talking that your state prices were crazy poor people were not in some years time they will not will not able to live in downtown anymore we would follow the steps of these north churches New York London and Paris and so on. And together with some friends we started to get uncomfortable with the situation of just talking about gentrification and not doing anything about. At the same time we've thought with that the idea of gentrification was a powerful. I hear something. Do you hear me. You can keep going. When I at the same time that gentrification is a very powerful concept for activism in the academia. It started to become like a common sense word and everybody was talking about gentrification but nobody was thinking about what can we do to address it. I started to get even more uncomfortable when I started to see that some municipalities in cities such as Berlin, Barcelona, and Chicago were addressing gentrification and starting to make public policies devoted to address it or to revert it or just to respond and to identify it and we in the academic realm were not even recognizing these steps and it's really very complicated when we with all the time and resources that research gives us see ourselves behind even public services. So that was the starting of a talking with some colleagues with some friends, some of them inside the university, many of them professionals and activists, some of them students. What can we do to address gentrification. We knew that it had to do with money it had to do with creating a kind of institution. One of the reasons this was back in 2015 was to create an association, an association which we call back then the community property association, which basically crowd funds money in order to buy or to hold property that should be bought in the downtown areas and rent at way below prices to the people that can could not afford houses to buy or to rent houses in a decent way in downtown and in general in the Brazilian metropolis but it happened to be in São Paulo, the project. So it's really simple as a concept. We build an institution that has a tax number with this tax number, we can buy any property that you want we can buy, well, any property the whole city if the city, if we had the money, and if we had someone who would sell the property for us we are technically able to buy it and then we started to ask for money in a very micro micro way. Also to so that I share with you a little bit of our situation in Brazil Brazil has no housing associations that do this already many countries such as the Netherlands that old property as a kind of a service, not in order to use it as a commodity in America you have many housing associations or foundations for housing in Brazil we have either private market property, or public property, or specific projects that are devoted to respond these are these question that happened to hold property but they are not devoted to hold property and to use it in a specific socially progressive way. These other social projects that we have many. They have their mission environment protection and supporting to LGBT communities, and so on. And if they hold property they use the property in order to accomplish their missions. FICA was built as an association that is supposed to hold property and use it in socially progressive ways that can be multiple ways. But its mission is to lock property out of the speculative market if our institution works well. We hold we buy property and we hold it forever will never sell it so until the end of this world there will be the cockroaches and figures property so this is the ideal model will not be here to check this out but this is our utopia. The legal form is an association. And I think it's quite interesting with you if you are thinking about the third landscape. This is really something in between private property and public property, of course, an association is not public property but it's private property hold by an institution that has in its core mission, being collective property being communal property, using it in socially progressive ways. It has a board of directors and of people who who look really like me, white middle class people, we are starting to get a professional team from 2019 on and beyond continuous we see in the right side of the screen is our general coordination she's doing an amazing job. We started from 2017 on. It was quite difficult to register the association when we did it we started the crowdfunding in a very no crowdfunding platform in which people can donate every month and right now we have like 60 associates and I really is one of the earlier supporters and she's a member of our international advisory boards. We thank so much for inputs about it. And we have also supporters which are people that are paying every month so that we exist is amazing but yes these people exist. And it's really simple people make monthly contributions you put your credit card numbers and every month there will be a certain amount of money discounted from your credit card which can be really as little as 15 he eyes a month which is like the expresses in our price it will be probably one at your price. So if you want to support us since you are late in the group be our guest and nowadays for five years on. We have around 150 monthly supporters that support us with 750 7500 is a month which in US dollars doesn't seem a lot but in our currency rates is really an achievement. We have 260,000 in your family. Maybe we can buy two further apartments and we have one split that was donated in 2017 by a couple of associates that said we want you to prove your model so that I give you an apartment I donate you an apartment so that you can show that this project can be powerful. They are testing our model as well and we are very happy about it. I'll talk in some minutes about some new projects there's like lots of discussions and assemblies about how do we calculate rent and it's not about like 50 or 60% of market rates or 70% of market rates market rates are not a parameter for us. What is a parameter for us is the cost price of property property this property costs something they are the house costs. There's a fund for wear and tear fee. There's a small fund to help support the association. Each tenant contributes so that we can buy the next department so that they have the feeling that they belong to something which is larger and not just one an apartment in a lottery or something like this also an insurance at the end of the day our apartment costs less than half what market price would cost in an apartment and it's no miracle it happens to cost so few money because it is the financial cost of our model is zero because everybody's donating money. Also something which is extremely important is transparency. When we started people thought Brazil has no culture for donation people will not donate and we see that consistency something which is very important every month we give our monthly reports we have yearly reports in our websites that the money doesn't disappear people who donate they stay with us and they understand that the money is increasing even if it takes two or three years so that we buy a real state which is extremely expensive and it's really important to be consistent and transparent and we see each year it gets more momentum and more people are believing in us this is the first family don't have the time to talk about the selection process of the family. It's a five person family Mariana, Eugis, Enzo and also we're not in the picture are Maísa and Maria Eduardo. It's really unbelievable the effect of decent housing for them. It's a functional family. They work but they simply didn't have the income to live in a decent way but they have every possible other requirements so that they would they understood exactly what is a house about contrary to some people that say that people are not living in vertical houses they are not used to live use elevators and they are not used to all all sorts of prejudices about it it doesn't have any empirical sustain a system verification according to our family. Our family adapted from day one to this new housing they were not adapted to the awful housing that they had before. Last thing I'm talking about is that it's quite interesting we are very unique in the Brazilian landscape since we are a institution that's devoted to hold property in multiple ways multiple properties and use it in progressive ways and more and more other people are starting to reach us and to call us and say we want to begin a project in this and this shape and we are now starting a fund for agroecologies and weeks ago I was talking to Anna and Gerard about it. We are starting a fund and this in this case an investment fund for buying tenement houses which are overcrowded and it's the most expensive rent in the city although it's awful derelict and unhealthy housing. And we are starting to have invitations from other cities to say I want to I want to begin a fund here in Curitiba for example this was a talk of this week and we are starting to build some institutional hardware so with so that we as an institution that's ready that's like it's functional can be a kind of incubator for other such funds we don't want to monopolize it we want to proliferate when you create other institutions like us but we can in a very good way incubate it. Very often people think if we are relevant because we have just one apartment we are about to have two or three apartments and we think we are very relevant because we are typifying a new kind of social actor in Brazil which is in some countries called the social landlord registered social landlord or a social owner or a housing association or a foundation for housing many words that can be familiar for you and in Brazil they are non existent so it's not just about the quantity of apartments or real estate that we have but about the quality and everybody who is familiar with computer language will understand that the difference between zero and one which is where we are right now is an absolute difference and now our society can say well we have a new earth landscape for property rights created we also know it's a long term project and we deeply hope that others can follow and we have all our administrative solutions our bylaws our contracts they are open source everybody can copy can get inspired about it and we hope that in some years time we will have some 10 or 20 of this kind of association in our country so that the state can start to look at us as reliable partners for public policies and direct subsidies for not for market property which is normally the case almost all housing subsidies go at the end of the day for private property either rental subsidies or vouchers for buying houses or flats and if this money would be used in institutions that are non profit like ours we could really start to change our urban landscape so I'm happy to talk more about you about our experience we are really happy to be here thank you so much thank you thank you thank you so much I think we can have questions later but now I would ask to David to come in share the screen and hi everybody thank you I usually talk too much and that is part of my Afro-Caribbean Venezuelan and Russian Jew otherness so I decided to record my presentation and be in time however before I go click I would like to mention that we heard from Professor Anna the importance of the middle landscape where we acknowledge and we respect and we recognize others and she spoke about transformations and adaptability that come from operating in this middle landscape we heard from Professor Duran of the anthropogenic cities of the pre-capitalist cities and how they were able to combine agro ecological approaches with the preservation of habitat and human settlements as an intertwined systems and from Renato we heard how through how could we capture land to place it or make it or produce social services and I'm going to try to in my presentation you will see that I cover the three aspects but acknowledging that although we may not like the outcome of the capitalist system 70% of the world close to it is already urbanized one third of it is self-constructed it's made by the people and in less affluent countries as we heard from Anna also it can go all the way to 80% of the cities that we live in are made by the people so I'm going to try to combine all these things so here we go and then we'll have a nice debate Professor practice at the departments of landscape architect and city planning at the University of Pennsylvania when I was national director of city planning in my homeland Venezuela we realized that for half of the population that lived in self-constructed settlements the plans that we were producing made no sense in fact as soon as we enacted the plans these ignited the real estate market and expelled pushed out the lower income groups from the areas we were planning for we also understood that housing was not a problem people can build their homes and they can expand them and improve them according to their needs they become living machines it's the lack of landscape or urban frameworks we carried out plans dealing with the improvement of the existing informal settlements and if they carry it out as holistic operations they have produced great results but the very laborious since to create public space include infrastructure recreational facilities educational facilities we have to operate it almost in a surgical manner in these very tight urban fabrics and of course it's pivotal to engage the community from the earliest phases in the planning design construction and operations of these facilities as we can see here in these beautiful images of Medellin Columbia close to one billion people live around the world in existing informal settlements and we estimate that this number will double in only two decades this is a major challenge the question is if it's possible to foster sustainable communities of this nature that are beginning to occupy the land accompanying them in the different phases of transformation or evolution to answer this question I presented some ideas which I've called the informal armature approach derived from professional practice academia and it's condensed in these publications in English and in Spanish planning and design for future informal settlements the approach suggests the use of a system of simple design components that could be adapted to different site conditions some corridors protect the environmental assets as streams flood plains rich agricultural soils all the corridors attract the occupation towards favorable location connecting the existing settlements with the expansion areas they facilitate public transportation they provide an economy of scale that can support commercial activities and other communal services the patches provide land safe land legally cleared to facilitate the self-constructed processes and also a for instance let's say the patch in the center image at the lower left could be in early phases a recycling center that helps the community with materials to start to begin the construction of their homes as the neighborhood consolidates this recycling center could be passed to another frontier liberating the land for other users the dots the custodians the stewards facilitate the transformation of the components they could be respected institutions NGOs community leaders they also serve to keep the settlement from expanding occupying land that is not adequate for urbanization and finally all these elements act as a network of interrelated components supporting a rich urban ecology in constant flux or transformation the following are some of the skills that may facilitate the implementation of the approach political support assemblage of public land if we wish to counteract the negative effect of real estate driven urbanism we have to train the facilitators that understand not only the technical aspects but that also have the ability to communicate the ideas to engage the community and these combination of interdisciplinary skills that go from the technical to the communication skills are not always provided by academia we also might require mechanisms to monitor the process check what's working well what is failing and mechanisms of transparency we know that corruption is one of the factors that hinders progress in many developing countries and finally we have to adapt the approach to different site conditions addressing the priorities since I'm running out of time I would like to mention only that the approach could be applied operating a very different scales from territorial vision as in the case study of the Caribbean coastline of Colombia at an urban scale as here in the city of Cartagena where many existing informal settlements have occupied the basin the marsh land filling it and destroying the mangroves and the process is expected to continue in the next 20 years when an other 800,000 additional inhabitants if land is not provided as you see in the image on the right as a framework to facilitate in a plan and design matter the informal occupation or these proposals or should other Guatemala that were developed by my students at the University of Pennsylvania working with public officials from different municipalities and local students and faculty the parting from metropolitan vision focus on larger districts that are currently essentially dormitory communities that have developed in a fragmented way with patches of informal settlements and gated communities eroding agricultural land and losing the environmental systems and even focusing in on particular sites for instance this was a fascinating location of a large public land and agricultural school that segregated informal settlements from middle income area in which the proposal is sought to protect the agricultural land the environmental corridors established connections mainly based on public spaces and community services between the different income communities create higher density corridors based on public transportation defining the spatial organization the lock allocation and even the initial housing shell to facilitate the self constructed processes as well as the planting material and the agroforestry operations within the larger public land I hope you this gives you a general idea of the possibilities of this non conventional approach and that we can have a very interesting debate on the period of questions and answers that were thought. Thank you. Thank you. Seven minutes. That was great. So, finally, let's see if we can have Jedi Jedi. Are you there. I'm going to talk in Portuguese, and I'm going to translate. I'm going to try to translate. So if, if anyone has problems understanding please stop us and ask, and then we'll, when Jedi is done will stop for general questions. And I think, at least you could run the slides for Jedi Jedi. It's a little bit complicated because I don't speak and I don't understand English. But I know how to speak some English. I'm saying good night to everyone that she's happy to be here that she excuses herself that she can't speak English or understand English but that she knows a little few words that are not very useful now like Star Wars. My name is Jera Potomini Guarani. I have a name in Portuguese too, but it's just a nickname. My real name is Jera Guarani. Oh, Jera Potomini. My artistic name is Jera Guarani. I didn't understand anything that was spoken in English, but it was certainly very good to hear. And then I talk here about this territory, which is a very important thing because here in the indigenous territory, where I am, and the indigenous territory of the Jaraguá village, are one of the only two villages that are inside a big capital city, which is in the case of here in the capital of São Paulo. So Jedi is saying that her name is Jera Potomini, that artistic name she likes to call herself Jera Guarani. She is Guarani Nimbia. And that she lives in the territory called Tenum de Podem. That Tenum de Podem and the other Guarani territory in São Paulo, in Jaraguá, are the only two indigenous territories that are within the city, an urban environment. And actually, both of them belong to the municipality of São Paulo, to the district of São Paulo. Anyway, I had a lot of involvement with the issue of women in itself, but this work also brought a lot of good things, bringing good things. Jera is one of the young Guarani leaders in this territory in São Paulo. And she has a very active role as a woman in the women's community. And she is one of the leaders of the Guarani community in São Paulo. And she has a very active role as a woman in the women's community. She has a very active role as a woman in the women's movement inside the Guarani Nimbia. And when they were fighting for the recognition of their original territory, she saw that there was a lot that was done by the women and also for the women. Fighting and that everyone was together, the kids, the women, the men, and everyone became important in this fight. There are stories that still remain the nature, all the different beings too, of the human being who lives in it, like the people of Guarani Nimbia. My people respect a lot, we have a sacred life too. And I'm here in this village Calipeta. And besides being a leader, I currently work a lot with the recovery of traditional seeds from the Guarani. Jera is saying that this fight for the territory was also the fight for all the living things that live in the territory, like the forest and the animals and the trees and the rocks, which are as important as they are, the Guarani Nimbia. And now that they have conquered the first step of the recognition, they are building their villages and this is the village of Calipetu, that's where she lives. I don't know if I forgot something, Hinato. I'm trying to write here a subtitle, Sana. Yeah, I can see. And then I think that the theme of this live, the authoritative word, is very interesting. And now, at this moment, I would say that the current Brazilian government should study the meaning of this word, mainly because these people, these different peoples, is what represents the greatest fight of a planetary meaning, which is the protection of the forests and of everything that lives in it. Did I say, what I forgot was that she mentioned that she also has a main function or main task to collect traditional seeds, which is the guardian. But what she's saying is that she thought the name of the event based on alterity is a very special important name and that she wished that our government in Brazil would study and try to understand what alterity means, because it's not being very easy for the traditional people and they understand and she understands and she feels the importance of the traditional people, not only for their only survival, but as part of a huge planetary survival, which I think is what Ana Duran was also talking about. And so, within our difference, of being different, but in fact, what we are talking about for the non-Indians is that we have our mother tongue, we have our customs, but in fact we are all human beings and we are on the same planet. And here for the people of São Paulo, we say that we are on the same territory, so we are not on another planet, we just have different cultures and that it is humanly healthier to respect each other and their differences, differences of thinking, attitudes, actions, way of working, way of living. Did I say that they still have their language and they still speak Guadani and they keep their traditions, they're very linked to their traditions, despite everything, but that they understand and it's very clear to them that we're all in the same ship, that we're all dividing the same territory and we're all dividing the same land and that although they're different, they're not that different and we're all going to have to live in the same land and we should try to understand what is it that is different and not different and try to acknowledge the difference and try to live with it. And then we have, we are different in several aspects, right? In our indigenous language, which we haven't lost until today, even though we have been in contact for more than 500 years with the Duroá language, which is Portuguese, and besides the influence, despite the influence of the Duroá culture in the Udea, in the Udeas Guadani, which here in Brazil we have Guadani in six states, many Udeas in six states here in São Paulo, more than 40. And in all these Udeas there is school, there is influence of the Duroá language, Portuguese, and there are still people who don't speak the Duroá language. So, she keeps repeating the word Duroá, it's what Ana Kalisto had explained that every indigenous people has their name for the long indigenous in the Guadani case, we are the Duroá. So, she's saying that they are very different, they have their religion, and that is incredible and even to her it's incredible that after 500 years of intense colonization, there are more than 40 villages and 40 communities of Guadani in São Paulo and they're also spread in other countries, and in other states of Brazil, there are a lot of Guadani, and in every village there is a school, and there is the influence of the state. In the school, they force the Guadani to speak Portuguese usually, and even though when you go to one of the villages and it's true it was my first visit to Calipete, it was incredibly surprised because it's basically in São Paulo, you go in, and the kids, the children, they don't speak Portuguese, they only speak Guadani. And if you could hear, if you speak Portuguese, you'll understand that Jeddah has an accent. And some people, some of these Guadani spread in São Paulo, some of them don't even speak Portuguese, which is in itself something very impressive. And besides having all this difference, we here in this indigenous territory called Tenandaeporam, we are making it even more different. But even though it's different, it's something more focused on our essence, it's much more of us as having one, two, three, four, five, six villages within eleven villages that no longer have Cacique, that in this place of Cacique, of the man, of the man-chef who decides, who sends, who decides, who speaks, in São Paulo, we have a Guadani council and some others only have women in the internal political management. And Jeddah is saying that although they have fought and they fight for their traditions and they're very embedded in their own traditions, that in this new territory and the new villages that are being built in this land, like the village where she lives, Calipiti, that they don't have anymore the old rule of the chief. And they don't have the figure of the man at the top of the hierarchy and the command that they have instituted a board, like a board of decisions, a common group that decides for all of the villages and with all of the villages what will be the destiny or the path to follow. And that in some villages there are only women, like in hers, that are the political representatives of the people. And this new model of internal political management is what resulted in the dispersion of more people, of two small villages that stayed for a long time, small villages, where we lost a lot of cultural practices and that now we have 11 villages and it was the modification of internal politics that resulted in the victory of the struggle for the land, that only had two small villages in this area that we are now and now we have almost 16,000 hectares of land where there are 11 villages. And there are four of them that were initiated only by women, where a lot of good things are happening, a lot of planting, rescue, cultural practices, young people learning to plant, harvest, to recognize the phases of the moon, to build houses and so on. So did I say that before in the area where they are, there were only few very, very small villages that were losing all of their strength and the traditions, and that after the fight, after they got together to fight for their land that they conquered 16,000 hectares. And that now they have 11, I believe, villages, four of them have women as heads. These villages are very prosperous now and they are regaining a lot of the things that the young people were slowly losing. A lot of the young people are now planting again. They have a very diversified hossa, very diversified traditional planting. The young people are learning to recognize the phases of the moon and to bring the culture to flourish again. And this new reality that we have today in the Territory of Ternão de Pona, it really is very representative, because it is an area for two communities that had almost completely lost a lot of space to do in practice the knowledge of the traditional culture, but that for once was very alive in the memory of the older people, alive in the memory and in the practice of the families that went to other villages to visit and to stay in bigger villages. And all this recognition and the knowledge is evolving in a very natural way in this territory. And then what we want and ask the Brazilian government and the white people to do is to respect this different way, the other, as you speak, is different in the sense of our principle that we come to this planet, to this life, just to live as best as possible every day, which means being happy. And the essence of being happy, of living happy every day is to have the sufficient. And then we are not a people, we are not communities, we are not villages that will fight for the progress of the country, for example. We do not have permission to make a monoculture, we do not have permission to devastate nature and make plantations for trade, for example. We plant only to eat, to share, to sustain, to feed our body and our spirit. So she's saying that part of the success of bringing the traditions to this new territory was the exchange with the elders, that they were able to keep a lot of the traditions that the young people were losing. And also the constant kind of switching and visiting between villages also helped when they had the territory granted then all of this knowledge could come back and it quickly came back. And what she asks is that the government and that does the Judo that they accept a different way of seeing things and this way of seeing things, things is about coming to the planet coming to life to just live a good life, and that everyone can live every day a good life. And living a good life is having the sufficient to survive and to be happy, and that they that they are not going to fight for the progress of the country. They're not going to fight for the progress of anything. They're not going to accept, she says, we are not allowed to do monoculture, we are not allowed to do commercial agriculture, we are not allowed to do any commercial or do anything that is going to trade for only money. That's not what they're allowed to do. And that's not what they're going to do. And how long do you still have, Ana? I think you can stop if you want to, but do you want to talk a little bit about the species that you've planted? Yes, so I was going to talk a little bit about that, about the happy reality that we're living, that for more than 60 years the two villages were planting more and more in small quantities because of the lack of land, only the white corn, only the padronized corn, this yellow one, and that up to my 22 years, now I'm almost 40, and up to my 22 years I had never even seen these corn mills with these different colors, black, white, yellow, mixed, and that the communities, the families of the corn here in this territory, after having the land larger, demarcated, in six years we were able to recover more than nine types of corn and more than 50 types of sweet potato, and that we have already shared with many villages, many organic farmers also. Jada wants to finish her talk and she wants to finish in a happy note. She understands that they're living a very prosperous and happy time of their lives, that they were able to conquer this land before they didn't have any room or space to plant their own plants. And until she was 22, she had never even seen the traditional Guadani corn, they would only plant the seeds that the Judo and the white people used to plant, so the white corn or the yellow corn, and now she was able, by going to different Guadani communities, she was able to collect and she has nine varieties of corn, traditional Guadani corn that you can see in this picture, and she also has more than 50, I thought it was 20, but she has more than 50 different types of Guadani sweet potato that they're planting. And I think, Jada, did you finish? I think so, okay. This is the end of Jada's talk, and I would like to invite everyone, if there's some questions I think in the chat, if you want to turn your mic on and you want to ask it yourself, please feel free to do that. I think Kat has a question in the chat. If you want to ask Kat. Sure. So, I have a question for you. So I was curious, you could speak about whether there is resistance taking place against the expanding industrial soy farming in Brazil, because there was going on a lot in Paraguay, so I was curious what that means for the future of your village. I would like to see. Good day. Kat is asking if in Brazil, or if you have any type of soy resistance movement that is being planted and that she is seeing that in Paraguay it is doing a lot of damage, right? And she wanted to know if this is a reality that you also have. Yes, I think that in Brazil this situation is more in the world, in the territory, in the life of the Guarani Kayoa, in Mato Grosso, in the south. That the soy plantations of corn, sugar cane, invade the indigenous territory and it happens atrocities, like murder, like freedom of the farmers, of the farmers' leaders. And the government simply closes their eyes to this issue. What Gerard said is that in their territory there is not that problem. I don't know if it was easy to see there was a map, but then on that border is very close to downtown Sao Paulo. It's within the city, the districts of the city of Sao Paulo, so there is not too much, I mean there's a lot of urban pressure, but not the pressure of the soy. That is a problem that the Guarani who live in central Brazil, the Guarani Kayoa, are, they have a lot of problem and they are in a very, very fragile and dangerous situation and they're being murdered every day with very ease, a lot of ease. The government is not doing anything and it's actually protecting the big landowners. So yes, it's a very sad and big problem. Any more questions? I'm going to put everyone on my screen. And you would translate for Gerard? Hi, Gerard, I'm going to try to speak Portuguese. Good. I'll translate the English in a bit. Congratulations on this magnificent presentation. You said that you are not interested in transforming Brazil, you are taking care of your community. But I think that the support of this effort that you are making goes much further than your community. Because the preservation of the way of life, the culture, everything that you explained with so much detail and clarity, is also the preservation of an attitude, the preservation of nature. For example, here with nature, in my book I talk about stewards, guardians, custodians, who custodiate nature with love. So the impact of this is much further than the Guarani community. It's two things simultaneously, for the community and for the general planet, as Ana said. Congratulations. Thank you. Ana, can you translate that for the audience? Ana, your microphone is out. Sorry, I think Alicia has translated in the chat, but I'll try to translate it also. What Davi is saying is that he first congratulated Gerard for her presentation and for her beautiful talk. She's saying that the Guarani are not interested in making Brazil advance or the progress of the Brazilian state. But what he believes is that they are the guardians of something that is very important and that goes beyond their own community and affects the whole country. Because they are the example and the guardians of another way of treating or living with nature. Am I translating it right, Davi, or maybe you want to translate it? I think that conservation, water conservation, biodiversity conservation, medicine, beyond the cultural practices, all that is embedded in their territories. And if I was a politician in Brazil or I was part of all the groups, I would say this is why it's so important to support us and to protect us and to leave us operate in the way that we know how to operate because it's beneficial for a much broader society and for the planet. But that's a very good point because this in Brazil, the right wing and the people who are not only the right wing, but the people whose discourse is to exploit the territory where the Indians are. This, what you were saying is justified as the foreigner, you know, speech. And it's like, you know, everything belongs to us and we're Brazilians and we have to decide. And it's a big cynicism because at the end, you know, the forests and the soil they're exploited by global industry and Brazilians, you know, they, we don't, we don't keep a lot of it. Yes, but if the convention would be to pay that the world community would pay for the preservation of this because it means as Anna says, it's our is our water is our air is our biodiversity. Eventually, I see that conventions are going to start paying for the preservation of these communities and these lands for the benefit of the planet that that I hope we see this in this generation. Yeah, this is something that I think maybe Anna Maria knows more about that but there are several conventions and several talks about that right. I think there was a very important benchmark in the 80s and then in the 90s to also give the property rights to traditional met methods and medicines, like you said, which I think was was was very important but I don't know. Maybe Anna knows more. I don't think that, you know, we're being there being compensated by anything and especially with this government. Anna Maria under extreme attack now. It was one of the people that in Brazil were still somewhat preserved. They were with very, very rich interesting cultural traits and life, and also a very, very strong political presence with David Copenawa. And now they're being, you know, targeted since the campaign for presidency Bolsonaro has targeted them. And it's not by accident, you know, they they are above a huge mine of gold. So it's, it's all about. It's all about the soil and what's under the soil. Right now. The one interesting thing I think is that the distortion is so cruel. And it's so barbarian now with with the politicians that we have in the government that we have that the private sector has stepped up and bankers, the three biggest banks in Brazil have pledged and written in July and June to form a board and they have formed a board to to draft policies, private policies to protect the Amazon. So it's, it's so crazy that now we have, you know, I think it's a good thing right now, but it's, it's, it's how it's working. I mean, these are very complex issues, but I share your frustration and which I guess is also Jedi or people's frustration in the sense that like right now in the scientific panel for the Amazon that was assembled with 200 people who are writing about 20 chapters on the current of Amazonia, and I went through the through the 200 names. And not a single one is a, I don't want to use the word indigenous but I never know what to use instead of it. And not a single one belongs to one of the original peoples of the Americas, and that is extremely shocking to me like I think that we are still incredibly intolerant of alterity and capitalism as a system is extremely intolerant of anything that does not look to itself it refuses to understand the logic of any other. And there is, you know, communal property in the center of the debate because we're not, and I'm not, you know, talking about doing away with private property or doing away with public property but with the ability to coexist as the as the new biennial states you know, private property and public property can coexist with communal property. Why not, why, why does the communal have to be extirpated I mean what Gerard has shown today is mind boggling because you know you see the same pattern in Amazonia wherever there's healthy forest. There's a commune wherever there's a damaged striated forest, there's privatization. In Amazonia it's clear privatization constantly correlates with deforestation. There's no doubt. And the communal ownership of land, which correlates generally with quote unquote indigenous communes a, there's, there's a healthy environment. And you see that in the middle of Sao Paulo, I mean this is mind boggling. What did I showed, it's incredible. But I'm glad that you presented it that way. Because you're dealing with the I think that what is not healthy is when we speak in terms of opposites, where we say, well, we have to tear down the capitalist system, because it's not working. That doesn't conduct to dialogue. But when you present it in a way of coincidence of the different forms of habitat of culture of economy, and you find to a way to build bridges. And that's what I'm extremely interested on. So I think that it's, I mean, what I'm sure I can assure you that in most of these articles that are written. It's a problem of denunciate of denounce what's not working. The system is not working capitalist evil this is the result, but it's more difficult to build the bridges and the intermediate solutions of tolerance and coexistence. And I think that some one of our role of professor of students that are interested in in habitat and in design is to build the bridges so I'm very glad that you framed that way at the end. And the other thing that is that we always I mean when when you talk talked about the practices in, you know, in Miss America in the Amazon where you were able to have agroforestry. Where you were able to have habitat preservation, and you will have the communities. Obviously we're dealing with a scale that is very different of what we have now in these mega cities. The question is how we extract the logic, the ethics of that thought, and we can adapt them to some things that are very different scale. And that is, you know, that is so so when people hear our discourse and say, This is true what we've done in the research. They say, Yeah, but that is something of the past. That is a very small scale that doesn't respond to a city of 20 million people that's going to have 40 million people. But I think that our role is to make the connection. I think it's David that you're sort of doing it already in the sense that this is you mentioned the word multi scalar in your presentation. And I think that's a critical word, because you see these principles of design from the scale of a small village in Amazonia, all the way to a 350,000 people city. And we use that word in, I let's say urban agriculture ecology in the, in the shingoo. So, I think that principles have that amazing quality of being multi scalar and I think that what you are doing in terms of these reinsertion of natural, you know, of ecological systems that are also agroecological in the cities as you, you know your images. I think at your images, I was thinking, interesting, the indigenous principles coming back into the cities, because, you know, it's like, all the tradition of landscape architecture in the US stems from in my car in a way. You know the one that is propelling talk about you pain, he was there. The one that is propelling the notion of urban ecology ecological urbanism. Exactly. And he and my car clearly states in his book that he was greatly inspired by Native America, because he said in this animistic culture, what I see is a relationship with nature that is talk and anotherness, you know, it's a different relationship with nature. And this is what America has given me because he was Scottish. So he comes from that Western ontology of the city, yet he had the eye to penetrate it like Michael Sorkin, you know his proposals are at a work. It's about this idea of intertwining again, you know, breaking down dualisms and binaries that have marked us for so long, and go back to intertwining agroecological ideas with habitat with city. That's doable in a city of 20 million 40 million. Because again, it's about multi scalar principles, they can be applied to a little Kichwa settlement in the Napa, or they can be applied to a large settlement in the single, or they can be applied to the 70% informal mantel of the Napa, or Wayakil. It's about the principles. And I think we need to go back to those principles, and even to go even further because as I was listening to, to these amazing intervention of you know how the what I need in Sao Paulo, when I think Keto from that perspective, Keto has at least 72 Kitu Cara or Kichwa communes within the conurbation. Each one of those communes is an amazing ecology, just like the one we saw in Sao Paulo. When you started urban planning in Keto and since you're going to be working there, David, my suggestion would be, get those communes mapped, because they already provide an ecological framework for the city, and their ancestral, they have provided an ecological framework for 2000 years, at least. And then at the corridors that interconnect at the Kapaknyang and at the, you know, at the new corridors at the modern framework at the law of Indies, the whole hybridization. And I need that, you know, there's these amazing thing of the territory that is Kitu Cara, that is free Inca, Inca, and now, you know, the communes are there, and they're facing exactly the same problems that the what I need face. They're being murdered, they're being imprisoned, they're being persecuted because their lands are worth millions. I'm wondering, you know, maybe this indigenous planning that is also contemporary and multi-scaler may also be the clue to the future coexistence of alterity within our cities. Because we have literally squeezed them out with our ontology that has no tolerance for that alterity. It doesn't think in terms of agriculture within the cities. You mean agriculture in the city? Are you crazy? So I think that, and then the thing that interests me about what Renato talked about, and I have been looking a lot at the history of communal property in Latin America. And the Hispanic America has a very different history from the Brazilian America. And I'm really intrigued by that difference. And one thing that Brazil does not have that I think that the Andes should donate to the indigenous movement in Brazil is that concept of communal property. Of course, the state always finds a way of extirpating it. Yeah, it's your communal land, whatever, you know, Mr. Schwart, Mrs. Schwart, or a Schwart, or Kofan, or what have you. But the subsoil belongs to the state, that's public. You know, so the surface is yours, or whatever's on it. But because the subsoil belongs to the state, we also have issues because you have the communal law that defends communal property, and it comes all the way from the ancestral America through the laws of Indies, and it has been reshaped very many times until today. And the government always finds a way of introducing loopholes to be able to appropriate and exploit communal lands. And you know, but there's something there, to me, there's something in this figure, in this land tenure figure of the communal property, that for example in Quito has has allowed some of these communes to survive in the midst of incredible and very aggressive urban extractivism, if you wish, where the Quito cara tell me, you know, for us, the real estate development is like for the Quito down there in the Amazon, the oil, there's no difference. And the threat is the same and the violence is identical. And the, and the good thing about having a law is that, for example, communal property cannot be subdivided. So it's not, you know, the private, the private logic is, which is all about plotting and subdividing into small pieces that it can sell out. It's not interesting having a land that is defined as communal property because it's indivisible, for example. So there can be legal aspects that I think that we need to pick and choose and learn from and see how we insist on those on those alterities that are being completely suffocated within the city and in the countryside and in the hinterlands of South America and Brazil. I mean, Hispanic America and Portuguese American Brazil because I don't know, I just feel that there's something there, talk about resistance that we really need to defend because public property is going nowhere, but the state is always willing to give concessions out. So public property doesn't protect the land. And private property is also there, but it's not going to necessarily protect the land. Sometimes it does. Sometimes people buy land to preserve it or conserve it. Maybe another wants to respond or comment on that. Yeah. Yeah, why Anna can answer the question about the author in the chat. I think what we are doing is not communal property. We are kind of hacking as I wrote hacking our private property system. So that we can talk about like mission driven property or something like this. We can we think we can go quite far with this kind of property but it's not communal properties really a different concept in Brazil. We have the concept of communal property in different fashions in the more traditional one for example in South Brazil. There is a tool called there's a figure called fashion now which is kind of communal property. And then after the 1988 Constitution. We have a kilombola property, which is when black communities that are remains remains from a, they have traditional property which were the Columbus, which were black communities that either escape escape from the farms or had some kind of privatization which was very peripheral because nobody was interested in this land. They don't have land deeds, but they live in the same land forever. And for this we cannot say that this is public property but it's neither private property because they don't have land deeds and since 1988. This is the figure of the kilombola property. And it's also it's there each kilombo is kind of a figure because they have to make a nonprofit association that we will get the land under their name. And, but once you get the land registered as kilombo kilombo property, it behaves like communal property in a way that our land because land cannot behave because it's simply nonprofit property so it's more radical. I think we have, we have been interpreting this kind of concept of communal property in Brazil and we have some responses, but I wanted to talk something about. I was deeply identified when Gerardo and I think this is when we can really be postcolonial when she was talking about I am happy I'm planting now I know now I'm planting nine species of corn, which I'm not even new when I was 20 years old, and now I'm happy. I felt a little bit an Indian in my small village which is one or maybe two or three flats in which I'm planting kind of my kind of corn in the sense and being happy about it so that this is this kind of resistance that it's really not about denouncing or, or having this broad picture which is always very negative but defining our small universes in which we can set up some of the rules and be happy through them. And we are doing these we I think we are, we are planting out there authority you know we are in. This is not the privilege of indigenous people we Western people can learn how to do it as well this is, I believe deeply in this. Yeah, I think we, we have a question in the chat. I think maybe Gabriel wants to ask he has the video on. I think part of it was already answered but I've seen some of the effect of David's work in and keep those well. And I was wondering, because in doing territorial design work in Latin America, it's very difficult sometimes to translate the pictures that shows and the desire for modernity has has been said many times in this lecture and I was wondering how, how successful the translation, the translations because with David drawings I mean their drawings that could be applied to. And at least in their drawing language to many different types of projects. I think it's really interesting to see and read very traditional ways of, of, of using the habitat of, of living basically through in a very formal language and I think that we as researchers, I think many of the most of us are architects. We can respond to those drawings from our training almost. And, and I know that in planning when you present that type of drawing, it's much more accepted than if you drop present hand drawings or hand sketches that are just as valuable from communities or if you present photographs. So that has been a useful strategy, David with you, your work and your students work when when you present in the municipios and cut up some other places. And what we discovered is that, first of all, it's a, you know, let me backtrack in a framework and this is a discussion we have with Professor Anna one she invited me to this is that your generation is a generation that you are advocates. And you that are going to school now and you're graduating in the years and you will practice. You have an agenda of advocacy, fighting for social justice, inclusion, environmental stability, these climate change. I mean, all these things that were not in the agenda when I went to school 30 years ago, you live with it. You know, you can't even breathe without thinking about this. And sometimes I feel that, but many people are doing this the politicians are doing this the Green New Deal is doing this in anthropologists are doing this journalist doing this. And sometimes I feel that we lose a big the contributions that we can provide a through design through and design in the broader sense, multi territorial multi scalar design that brings in so many different components that really can make a difference in creating added value, and it's going from the advocacy from the words to something that really is there to action. So that's one thing I would like to underline design super matters is it's not, it's not, it's not something that you can neglect. The other thing is that when we present this type of drawings, and we map them over a territory where people can recognize the tree their home whatever their city that is not an abstract diagram on idea, but they can see it. They can see it in the plan and they can see it in the 3D rendering and we do it before and after people say, hmm. That seems rather interesting and it's something that we can relate to. So the graphic and the image is very powerful to be able to have a dialogue with the communities and with the politicians and even with the private sector to see if we're speaking about the same thing. And then they come in and say, Well, why don't you changes. This doesn't seem to be right. This is not the planting. You said that that's not the really the place where it really floods. It's lower down, you know, or, you know, that you didn't take into consideration that there's a property that somebody wants to sell and, and this farm owner has a good heart, and the other one is really an asshole. So, so it's a mechanism to really go into the dialogue. Yeah, I think I think that's super important because it goes to what you're saying about bridging and not confronting. And I think that that work of translation of getting the conversation to where the two actors that many times are opposite sides of the table and really are just itching for a flight can start to speak about the neighbor as you say or that that you start to speak a common language and you start to kind of or which is a somewhat different because somebody's done the work of translation. I think it's been in my experience and I admire a lot of what you guys are what you do. Of finding those different ways of applying strategies that seem so different, but that can be applied over in the same in the same context. You know, sometimes one technique that we do and I invite you to explore it is when we become these processes we do charades on the ground, and we try to bring as many people in from the community, the developer, the ecologist, the green freak, you know, the transportation people the legal guy, you know, the producer of whatever. So, of many different actors, even if we don't like them. We ask them to start mapping what they would kill for what they're aiming for what they would see like to see happening in their territory. And of course, the, the communities and the conservationists are going to map certain things. And then we're going to see where it overlaps with the guy that wants to build a shopping mall on top of it. And there we have a problem, but we start to understand why, why, what is the logic of the shopping mall and where it could go. And then we start negotiating so it's in that direction for you. Cool. But, but the one thing that we do have to be careful with right now is that the balance is very, very, very, very strong in terms of just turning over voices that are not the dominant voice. And I feel that if we're going to play the role of bridges, we really need to have mega phones, because it's amazing how deaf the system can be towards indigenous voices, and that is absolutely exasperating. I've heard so many scientists in the scientific panel for the Amazon say, we need to make the people in the Amazon understand that. And I'm like, you need to learn from the people in the Amazon. Let's begin by that. Let's humble up a little bit, and I'll go and tell anyone how they should leave. And maybe we really need to have like an ontological. It's just like deaf ears and blind eyes, you know, the West never saw a culture in Amazonia. It always saw Amarania. From day one, I've been reading the chronicles written by the Spaniards as much as I've been reading the documents written by, by the elites that learned the alphabet very early on in the 16th century and it's crazy just the, the difference when when the expedition that goes down the Ocayali, not the first one by Orizana, but the second one, the Ursula one, and they were obviously going after these, I guess they imagined the monoculture of cinnamon. And when they get there, there's a polyculture that for them is just these like wild insane Marania, you know, they never saw their eyes were not trained to see agriculture in Amazonia. Their eyes were not trained to see the well, they saw the cities very well, and they describe them very well and they do describe them as cities which is shocking, because now people want to use the word cities when they discuss Amazonia compins us, because it doesn't fit the naturalistic perspective of Amazonia, which we inherited from the illustrate you know from the illustration, the English, the enlightenment and and then the romantic movement. So, but, but the Spanish have no qualm about describing the ginormous cities that they found in the Amazon, because they needed labor. So they had to, you know, they were into resources and that included human resources. So they wanted to make sure that the monarchy knew that there were lots of potential slaves in the Amazon. So I feel that there is this deafness and blindness to the West who feels it has the scientific and I have nothing against science, but I believe in the hybrid that's another word you use David. Yes, thanks. Scientific authority to tell everyone else what progress is how it looks like and how you achieve it. Your same words can apply to the biases against the self constructed city. Exactly. You know, as our pedagogues out planning refer to the informal students, you can imagine I'm dealing with students now working simultaneously with the University of Guadalajara. And we discovered that in the zoning code of a city like Guadalajara, which is the second in population in Mexico, they refer to the informal city as marginados. Degrees of Marjina, Marjina sees marginization. It's insane. And of course that mental framework passes to the students. This is something evil that we have to eradicate. So we're talking exactly the same thing. It's the biases and you know, just erasing the others from the scenario. They come like you, you know, that's the implication and education co is plays a role in that as, as it was noted tonight. Education has been a colonial pursuit and the indigenous movements clearly have stated that they will fight for communal property, that they will fight for the multi ethnic and multicultural state. It's not a plural cultural, no, for the bilingual education. I mean the indigenous movement and the sumac outside it's everywhere they have a very clear political agenda, but the intolerance towards it is crazy. Capitalism doesn't like communal properties not into coexistence. The state hates it will find ways of squeezing it out of existence. So I feel that, you know, in that sense resistance also goes through our need to really understand a different ontology, which is amazing and has so many clues for the future. It's destroying it, destroying its languages, its expressions, its architectural expressions, urban expressions, landscape expressions. I don't know. I see, I see it even among scientists to be honest with you that the scientific panel for the Amazon has been one of the most frustrating experiences I've had in my life and I was very happy when I was invited to participate and at this point I'm like, I don't know. It just feels like one more, you know, it's like, Oh, capitalism is going to save Amazonia from capitalism. Sorry, I'm very skeptic. And I'm not a millennial, but I'm very skeptic. I don't think capitalism will save Amazonia from capitalism. Maybe the proliferation of the commune, you know, but it is like this whole discussion that is all about like, oh, let's, let's come into carbon trade, so that we can save Amazonia but then they tell the communes in the Amazon, we'll give you money to conserve the forest but you can't touch it, because there's this romantic idea. And the indigenous commune say no, there's no, there's no chance we're going to sign up for this, because we extract the forest. We're doing it forever and it's actually highly anthropogenic. So how are you going to tell us not to touch it because now we have to take the burden of climate change generated in your geographies. It's really frustrating. It is very frustrating. The view from Amazonia is probably the most frustrating view in the world. But anyway, I'm going to shut my mouth. Anna just, I think we need to wrap up but I think of all of this, you know, and to end on a positive note, I think, you know, this wave that we're living and we have in our lifetimes I'm older than you are but you know we've coming from third world countries or however you call them. We have lived through, you know, different ups and downs. This is not the first one. And it will and it will pass and I think there is something that I noticed in Brazil, at least, and it was very noticeable in a very kind of empirical way is that there was a big reaction. And it was not a big reaction from the science or the scientific panels. It was a reaction of people, you know, suddenly saying, we don't we don't want the Amazon to be destroyed. We don't want the indigenous people to be destroyed. You know, there is a government there is a certain kind of frame of thought, but the average person in Brazil and I think the the except like this opinion is like 76% of the population. They say no, no. And it became a very strong topic. So, I think what we'll destroy before we rebuild. But I think there is a strong movement and I believe in what, you know, Henatou is saying, and what Dilip, you know, says, we have to also start, you know, like you're saying, believing in different systems that don't rely on flow. They rely on flows. They rely on drops, like the rain. And if you have enough drops, you know, it will, it will reverse, reverse something. And I think, you know, it just, we take time to do things, you know, we're done in a way, right, it takes time for humanity to do things. I think we're, you know, you know, this wave is going to pass, and we're going to do it. There's so many people that I know that are now going out of especially with the pandemic they're just going in. And I said I'm going to go to my, to my family's farm and I'm going to plant. And they're gone. You know, it's a minority but I think it's the same example of FICA it's, it's, it's radical in its proposition. And forests grow faster than we imagine. I mean, the forest, the forest can come back. Yeah, hope. Yeah, the forest in Cali Peti in Tenon de Poran, you know, it was, it's something that has five years and the techniques that, you know, gosh is doing in Brazil with the eucalyptus, the in Cali Peti means eucalyptus. They had planted eucalyptus all over part of the territory of the Guadani. And, and then Guadani reached out to gosh on this, this German guy who lives in Brazil and has this re agro reforestation on method that uses the eucalyptus because it grows so fast as the first phase of the feeding of the soil. And they're they in three in five years they've, you know, they don't have the, you know, like rain, you know, like this maturing forest, but they have, you know, something equal to like a third generation already on and it's, it's beautiful. I think on this note, we've got to wrap up the conversation. Yes, yes, because I think we can go to midnight or forever. I would like to thank everyone for coming and I think the conversation has been great, very enlightening and I think I would like to thank the panelists too for sharing the perspectives, the research. I think this wraps up our the whole conversation series of the semester on the high note. So thank you everyone for coming.