 Welcome into the original gangsters podcast. I am your host Scott Bernstein along with my co-conspirator and Partner in crime the dr. Jimmy Bucci Lotto Hi, everyone. Hey now and we got Ben behind the glass This week we're going to Really get into a deep dive of one of the most consequential Most historically Significant undercover operations in the history of law enforcement's war on organized crime and the mafia We're going to be talking to a true American hero a guy that was a pioneer in the ability for law enforcement to infiltrate the mafia at levels they had never done before he was involved in stomping out mob Corruption in politics and police out of a Stanford, Connecticut, which was always and to this day still is a big outpost for Genovese and Gambino crime families from New York And I want to welcome in Vito Colucci who is Again, we pay a debt to people like this. He's an og law enforcement and his work Led to a pollster for for some reporters as well as the the the spawning of the Presidential Commission on organized crime under Ronald Reagan Vito. Thank you for joining us. Thank you Well, like Ronald Reagan would say evil is powerless if the good or unafraid. Yes We had that and and Vito. I like to explain to people when talking about Vito's Story and journey and narrative that you know for fans of pop culture and and the film world if he was literally living this Cross-section of Serpico and Copland You know Serpico was the Sydney Lumet movie from the from the 70s and then Copland was the great Sylvester Stallone Ray Leo at a Robert De Niro movie In the 90s and they were both about sniffing out corruption and police departments and Vito wrote at one of the all-time great books when it comes to a story of the cops Going undercover into the mob and and breaking up Big organized crime and it's organized crime racket and conspiracy. It's it's the tenure anniversary of that book It's one of my favorites. It's called rogue town and was written Coauthored by with Dennis Griffin who I have gotten to know in my lifetime and it's just You know salt of the earth Great author and then we have on the podcast right now two people that I want to quickly bring in and get some words from before we jump back to Vito and Really start kind of to tell the story of his journey So we got Joe Cochran who is another friend of mine and hopefully will become a friend of the show Joe's in Detroit and Joe helped Vito with the the tenure anniversary of the book was commemorated by a Second edition that has some additional reporting that Joe helped on so Joe. Thank you for Joe joining us and helping Vito tell a story It's good to be here. It's quite a story Not only do I consider Vito a very good friend and a hero to America. He is he's my idol and hero He's like an older brother to me, but I am I am just so honored to be working on this and then hopefully some more books down the road and Then let's oh, let's really quickly Bring in Vito's son-in-law Gary who is a chaplain for the police out in Illinois and you know it was by a grace of You know the heavens above Vito is with us today to tell the story But over the last couple years he had some health issues and you know was that On the brink and he credits his son-in-law with helping get him through that So, you know, Gary's got a to jet in a little bit But let's just bring him on real quick and say hi to Gary and just kind of maybe tell a little bit about What you two have been through the last year or two Yeah, well, well, thank you Scott. Yeah, absolutely. I mean Vito keeps to find the odds Hey, every cop needs a chaplain with him And Vito we were told wouldn't be here. We just celebrated his year anniversary of life You know, he laid unresponsive in the hospital. No hope no diagnosis the way that it was described to us It was a perfect storm of all that went wrong And and really we had no way to communicate with him because he couldn't communicate And so, you know, we had to do what we do best and that's just to Activate our faith And just hang on and fight the good fible faith for him. He's sitting here today. He's in a fairly good shape He has his moments But just a real Encouragement to those who might be struggling. I mean this really is a is a story of hope and coming back from Something that was impossible and isn't it also kind of a microcosm of the work He was doing where the odds were stacked against him. It's an uphill climb Everybody was probably Questioning whether or not he could get the job done and at the end of the road after this lengthy time undercover He busts open one of the biggest, you know mob corruption cases in American history So it's really a tribute to his perseverance and both earlier in life and the last year Yeah, absolutely the parallel was uncanny and we had to keep reminding the hospital staff Even though he was unresponsive. We said this man matters. He mattered and he still matters And you don't know what this man has been through. So we're not giving up We're not pulling the plug, but we're gonna stay the course and we know there's gonna be a breakthrough and there was I Didn't even know that my first three weeks. I was in the hospital I was in a coma out of the nine weeks. I was in there and I had everything and Gary came took charge Told the doctors off a little bit and I feel great That's awesome. It's amazing So, you know, let's just kind of jump in and you know veto just to give the quick primer again Stanford Police Department in Stanford, Connecticut was a beehive of Corruption organized crime activity payoffs Gangsters being shielded by investigations gangsters in some ways Controlling who got not in some ways in a lot of ways controlling who got promoted who got assignments within the police department And it reminded me again of Copland Where they had a fictional town called Garrison, New Jersey, but in that town Well, Sylvester Stallone that character which I again I digress But I think it's Stallone's best acting performance of the latter part of his career or the second half of his career You know plays a meek Sheriff that's completely puppeted By the mafia and these and these cops that were dirty so veto saw this and he didn't just You know talk about it, you know With in a coffee clash with this with his buddies He decided to do something about it and put his mouth where is where his words were and and went deep undercover You know, veto tell us about the kind of the the impetus for For the investigation in your work Well, you know what happened was when you're new on the police department They put you in a squad car each day with a different man Okay to pick the good them from him and put away that they're not good I was realizing that whoever they put me with was depressed and say, you know everything's bad here man Just mind your business a whole bit and I couldn't understand it Then when I got put on a narcotics squad and after after a shootout that unfortunately we were in We started to realize that Inresting this individual our bill Chapman and he asked if we can go to the prosecutors and get him off If he gave us something very big I said, well, I'm all ears. What do you got? He says your boss Larry Hogan runs the whole empire for the whole county Fairfield County Connecticut Which encloses Stanford and Greenwich is the riches maybe there's a California they have one or two places But it encompasses Greenwich while the movie stars lived there to ball players from the New York teams and everything and Everybody's greedy and their money hungry Unfortunately, so we said our bill tell us he said well your boss Hogan He's running the whole thing and I work for him and your sergeant Duke Morris Runs all the narcotics through the whole county and everything else and that was amazing. We infiltrated this Found all the evidence on what was going on. Unfortunately. There was Anthony Dolan who wrote the book one opponent for it Found out that there was eight dirty cops in Stanford We had about 300 guys on the police department Stanford was a Town of about 130 140 people. So it was a decent size town very rich town Okay, and then all the I always tell people there's three. There's three cities in the country that worked Bringing in the companies organized crime Took them in it was Chicago, New York City and Stanford, Connecticut They bring their headquarters in they build there and that the common knowledge After my interviews was that they would tell you if you were one of the contractors Scott, they'd say okay The bids are gonna go to June 15th. Call me on June 14th. I'll tell you what's the lowest bid at that time You come in a million dollars under that and you've got it We chop it up and you can get the contract for it I just want to clarify I don't I'm sorry to interrupt you Lito Yeah, but just for the audience just for the audience so they understand you're talking about Fortune 500 companies Entities Yep, all the major companies wanted to come into Stanford, Connecticut And there was a lot of money there a lot of money to be made and the bad guys Jumped in and they wanted their cut too, you know and that was one part of it what they did They controlled all appointments all Things with the cops if you were going to try to beat a lieutenant on the police department You're studying you come in number one on the test out of 40 40 guys They they'd go down to three or four if they wanted to treat the guy at three or four to come in who had the connections Okay, and they weren't afraid of anything the chief at that time was not a good chief at all You had nobody that you could go to when we started to log our information our evidence I said to my partner Joe Leagey. I said Joe Can we go to the state police? No, no, they got too many hooks there We can't how about the FBI not a chief and the captain knows the guys there What are we gonna do with this just hold on to it? See what happens and what happened was a new police chief came in from California Chazancus who laid that big six-foot six former Marine that did the same thing out in California he went undercover with a guy and Got the evidence and the same thing he knocked the ball out of the park and so he came and We finally the end result was 15 people indicted some cops a sitting senator that was running for governor the next year and It just continued to go like that. We had death threats. It was unbelievable Anthony Joel and wrote 75 stories for the local newspaper wins the Pulitzer the Academy award of writing he wins the Pulitzer Goes on to Ronald Reagan finds out about the story. He asked to see him in 1980. He hires him as his Well, he Anthony Dolan Became his writer. Excuse me He became his writer for all his speeches and everything else for the full eight years went on to work then for both bushes in a capacity and You know, it was amazing amazing how these things all happened and Anthony Dolan wrote he wrote the forward to road town just for people Forward amazing forward about it all everything else back then Rudy Giuliani was new there was a lot of people that were new and He was amazing feet I don't even know what would have happened if he didn't come to Stanford Connecticut and come as a cub reporter and Did digged and digged and digged and found out all the evidence that some of them which I turned over to him Some of which the good people of Stanford the honest people turned over to him And it was amazing because just like the cover says the Stanford Connecticut story served as the catalyst For president Ronald Reagan's initiative against the American Mafia and the establishment of the president's Commission on organized crime back in that day. I'm a little older than you folks back in that day The president would take over all the channels if he wanted to give a news conference All the made the major channels and he would say there he said well, here's what we're going to do I'm going to hire 400 more prosecutors I'm going to hire 600 more of this and that and we're going after the organized crime and That really was the first time like he says that we have the tops were always behind Organized crime meaning that they never were even with them. Okay, organized crime was always ahead of them This was the first time that the police got prosecutors got even with them and the time that they even got ahead of the game Against organized crime. So that's that's why you know, the book was So interesting to people and everything that had nature, but it was it was terrible. I had death threats at night After working the organized crime thing I had to walk my door with a gun in my pocket and everything but thank God I got out of it and No harm to myself Try to explain to people that aren't from the east coast You know, you hear Stanford Connecticut and it seems like it's a minor league town And that if it's not in Manhattan or the Brooklyn or the Bronx, it's it's somehow less than but What's going on? I mean even today like I'm saying I mean for kind of time in memorial What's going on in Connecticut because of its proximity to New York City? It's very valuable racket territory maybe just give a quick minute or two for people to understand that This was an outpost for the Genovese and for the Gambino's that was looked at on equal status of if you control territory In Queens or you control territory in Staten Island the territory that was in Connecticut Was as important if not more important than some of that New York City territory? Yeah, probably a big reason for that was there was a lot more money during that time in Stanford, Connecticut Greenwich Connecticut was the place, you know, the movie stars Everybody lived there to all the ball players from all the New York teams Like I said lived there and little by little all these guys came in I I Was looking at my paperwork here all the names of all these guys that came in and took over be it from Gambino or Genovese families Murdering each other doing all that stuff. It was horrible people, you know, I learned a lot I For a while when Henry Hill was alive. I spoke a lot of engagements with him and it was interesting because We go to a place and talk and somebody be walking up Way in the hallway or something they see Henry Hill and they call the air you rat and they run away Like that. So one time I just stopped everybody said hold on and we had a lot of four or five hundred people there I said, please answer this question for me if you're arrested and they're telling you Scott, you're definitely going away for 11 years. No if ands or buts unless you help me What are you gonna do? Can you please raise your hand if you're still gonna be quiet and not do anything? Nobody. Most people who would fold under question and then we were talking off the air Jimmy that talked about this on on, you know this platform one of the most Underappreciated aspects of when you're looking at this especially now Everybody talks everybody in the mob from the very top to the very bottom is talking in some way shape or form to the government So the belief that you know that there are just these, you know Full of rats that have actually taken the stand that doesn't mean there aren't Thousands of other guys that have given other people up Yeah, that have gotten them arrested have got them put in prison. They're just not Identify they're what we call, you know dry snitches And the people don't realize Scott the people don't realize that after the cops interview these guys They go they think they're gonna go back to the clubhouse. No and walk in the clubhouse. What did you do? I didn't tell them nothing. They don't believe them either that guy's gonna get killed or he's gonna get thrown out And tell them don't you come back here anymore? They're not gonna be believed anyway a lot of times what we would do if we rested somebody names the real wise ass and He was not telling us anything. We tell okay. Come on. Let's drop this drop your back off We we pull up to the clubhouse. We get out and you know, it's like Tony. Thank you very much, man Thank you for all your help. What are you talking about? Thank you Pat him on the back and you know, hey Son happens to the guys not my fault. I'm just thanking them for coming in Scott had has that purple gang pedigree. So I bet Scott He would subscribe to America. I bet keep his mouth shut my abuto my my My great-grandfather's first cousins were the infamous purple gang here in Detroit Yeah, so there's a couple names I want to throw at veto Guys that were kind of the head of the snake when it came to Genovese crime family affairs in Stanford Lesser known guys But you know in terms of if you were studying the five families and the guys that were doing stuff in the Big Apple But in terms of the history of Connecticut guys like John Stoogie de Poli and Michael Ginzo Zizema Joe Timbury these were guys that were You know the shot that the mafia shot callers in Stanford and the ones that were You know had their hooks into the police department guys like Larry Hogan Vito, you know, what do you remember about guys like Stoogie, you know Stoogie was the man He was the big guy in Stanford and all through Fairfield County. He was the one that It was a quiet type of guy you see him for promotions everything was kind of in a way we had a Place in town where it was a little bit of a diner off the wall off near the water and the whole bit and Absolutely the cops. I remember a couple of times they brought me as a young cop They say come on. We're gonna go to the diner I'm gonna meet with Stoogie you go sit over there get a hamburger or whatever you want And they would go to negotiate For you know, well, what are you gonna do for me if I make you lieutenant and things of that nature, you know And and it was it was just Unbelievable Stoogie was a guy and he didn't like me when I was When I did my undercover stuff and everybody he hated me at that time my mom was working All of a sudden I go to my mom's house one day And I see all this new furniture at my mother's house new kitchen set beautiful style for that that era And I said where all the stuff come from she says oh, she's right from Italy. She said nobody made him and I got the paper over here See the name over here. Mr. DiPoli I Because I watch his I watch his mother and so he wanted to do I said you watch his mother Yeah, yeah, she's real old and I take care of her. I didn't know that you know at the time and so he sent his boys Bought her all new kitchen set and everything make sure you tell your son now make sure you tell your son what I did I Said ma what did you do these people are no good. No, what am I gonna? I didn't know So I was really furious with that that's for sure because Gave her all the furniture now my mom would go over to her house The old ladies how she was about eight years old at that time and take care of her And so I guess that was his way to you know, and even with me a little bit Tell the story from the book. This was one of my favorite stories About your first day on the job going undercover and you bought yourself a new watch from like a Sears and Just tell tell tell the story about how you got a lesson and how to dress like a mob guy well Here I am I I go I meet with the FBI They had a big office in Stanford at the time I met with them and and finally it was my day to come in and get wired up and to go out on the road myself So I go in and back then you got to understand The boxes were big, you know, they tape it to your back They got the wires all over your body the whole thing like that You don't want somebody to give you a big bear hug or something like that because they could find this stuff Okay, so now I get done they wire me up. I'm ready to go out in the street. I'm nervous You know, it's my first day So I walked to the elevator because the FBI was on like the fourth or fifth floor And one of the guys FBI guys that watched me get Wired up was getting on the elevator too. So I I looked at them and I said, uh, you know You see this watch I went now Cal doors was a department store like a Walmart or something like that. I said I got this at Cal doors it's it's a Well, let me think of the thing Oh It was like a 30 dollar time x Yeah, it's a time x 29 99 And the guys just staring at me and uh, so we get on the elevator and so I don't know what to say I'm just looking ahead. He goes Tops wear time x the mobs wear Rolex So I never forgot that A 30 watch in 1976. That was an expensive Now for a wise guy though They stick out like a sore thumb And then here I am I go out and I'm hitting all kinds of places good I'm getting the tape and then all of a sudden they tell me to uh, all right now You got to go up to uh bridgeport And you got to sit with this lady the old lady who works for us and you got to get everything She's going to type up all your words and all the words everybody says I said, how old is this lady 78? I said, oh geez so I go up there and it was a it was a Um, I forgot which polo. It was a polish lady. It's all broken English and uh, so we're down there and uh She's she's saying She kept stopping me here. I want to get done and get out of there. He says I don't understand mr. Vito Uh, everybody everybody's telling everybody make sure you don't forget the ziti and bring the ziti to my house So maybe what but you know, I said no no no read that back to me Yeah, do me a favor call tony telling to bring me over the eight box of ziti We got to get going over here, you know things like that. I said no no with their when they're saying that they're they're disguising The money for as ziti they're saying bring ziti when they say one box of ziti That's a thousand dollars if they say five and I point to her five would be five thousand dollars. I said, yeah So that's that's good, but uh, and it was so funny, you know Because she went so slow and everything else and I I told the guys afterwards. Hey Find somebody else to to get some younger man or woman to to You know type this stuff up, you know, but but that was that was that was funny But the uh, the Rolex with the timex that I get more laughs out of that How long were you on how long were you undercover for? Undercover. Well, there was two undercovers that was run with the fbi and then it was one After my cover got blown about a year and a half. I did it And then I go to the chief's office. He says, all right, you know, they You're all done comes to my office tomorrow. He says He was he was starting unfortunately to go wacky. Okay, he says I want you to still work undercover I said, what are you talking about? It's on front pages. Everybody was doing what? They said, no, you know, you still go out go out and just find see whatever you can find out about this and that Uh, so I said I put my resignation in I want to get out of this stuff. I said I got five kids. They're all small And then, you know, I've had it with this stuff here And no, no, no, no, so he he opens a draw. He said I got a lot of money here from the state I'll pay you each week. You just keep going out and doing your stuff I did it for a short time every time I told him that's it. That's it chief I don't want to do this anymore. No, no, no. Yeah, he just like it went when one one of you are not the other He said no, no, don't don't worry about it. You're just you know, here's the treatment He was giving me 360 dollars a week back then Right. It was a good amount of money. Okay decent amount of money Uh, so I mean a lot of crazy stuff, but he was going wacky He that he he was brought in By the our mayor who loved him a lot He was a great chief out in california and he brought him in and he did a great job initially What happened though was he had a fight with the mayor And then he goes and raids the one man team. He went to raid the mayor's house on a sunday morning For no reason at all. He doesn't give him was going after him but uh, it's it was uh, it was a bad time back then And uh, we got a lot done But a lot more could be uh, could be done and I tell people now over the last eight to 10 years There's stuff still going on It's like they've almost forgotten this everybody says. Oh, yeah, veto you and this one wrote the book. Wow I said nobody's scared. Just doing the same thing. We had a we had a fire a massive fire A couple years ago. Madonna badger was the lady's name and her three little girls died and her father and mother died in the blaze And uh, half of the house this big house half of the house was destroyed But there was another half that wasn't destroyed and The state law was that you cannot knock the place down until the state police comes in and does their own investigation The guy one of the head guys in the town hall says he bypassed that He said he took got two hoodlums with tow trucks. He said you guys go in Use one tow truck for everything that's burnt and I can't pay you So take whatever you wanted that's still uh, these were multi-millionaires And he just I go, hey Nobody's hiring me nor do I want to get hired again I said everybody still thinks they can get away with everything That's still going on a lot of different ways. Yeah I mean there's uh, I have a question about the chronology. So when you're undercover, I'm assuming this is under the police chief that was not corrupt uh, the one at the Undercover. No, he was the good guy change. Yeah, okay the guy that came in from california Is because I thought maybe the corrupt guy was the one who blew your cover. Can you can you explain how that happened? How you yeah, that's that happened Interest I was doing real good on it getting a lot of information And uh, the bad guys, I guess all the organized crime had a big picnic one day Over one of the guys sister's house. Okay, and while they were sitting there Uh, one of the guys says yeah that collucci this and that blah blah blah. He said he's a pain in the eye So whatever they were saying the sister while she's getting stuff to the table Said, uh, who are you talking about and they said Vito collucci Now she worked in the town hall. She made out the checks Each week Okay, she said Vito collucci I give him he gets his check every week from the police And uh, so that was it. So now I don't know that The next day I climb up these stairs Knock on the door to go to the poker game And thank god They didn't let me in because they already knew I was I was uh bad I knocked on the door and said get the hell out of here We don't want you around here any more blah blah blah and I ran down the stairs and got out of there But they could have brought me in Put me in a car And uh, it was so so funny because all the time I played cards there Everybody was was cool with it Except that it was one guy Really really heavy guy Nasty guy asked him be and we'd be playing poker and I'd look up. He's be staring at me and staring at me And he would every time he would say, you know, tony I don't like this guy here. I don't like him I'll leave him alone leave him alone. He's not on the job anymore. He's okay, you know the whole bit And I'm saying oh man And by the time I get to the card game I'd be Boxed in to the last seat in the kitty quarter and with all people around me So I had to get by four or five people if I wanted to leave, you know So But it was a crazy time Uh, I was glad I was some help in in doing this stuff and uh, but a lot of good honest people came forward and gave information Anthony Dolan was unbelievable. That's why he wanted to pull it here And uh, just and and denny griffin just he's he had 20 books out. He was a great great writer of true crime Can you uh either veto scott joe doesn't matter, uh Can you describe the underworld landscape in in connecticut like, uh, which five families operate there Operate operate there. How does that work? It's well all my time In fact all the time I I even think about that's always been gambino and genovese. Yeah That's the main one there. You didn't have the uh road island cruise or or anything else You know these these guys were were it And uh, you know, I look at I look at my paperwork here out of all the people here You had anthony bagalli. You had then you had the really big people. You had tommy de brizzy Uh, you had and tommy de brizzy is an interesting one Because I'm in the trunk of a car Well, yeah, yeah, what happened with him is gambino boss young goddy one time Says come on in I talk call him tell him I want to see him And he doesn't come he keeps telling him. Hey, what do you mean? He didn't come He don't want to come he said he's home with his wife. Oh, you tell him to get over here He did about four or five times and then he shot they shot he got shot in the face four times You veto you mentioned anthony bagalli. I think they called him the uh, the genius the genius or the brain He eventually became under boss of the gambinos and I believe he was the first Connecticut mafioso to rise into an administration of the five families Yeah, how he got his name though was interesting Okay, there was a guy that worked for him and um He uh, he was going to take all the numbers action in the in the football games and everything So they brought a guy in an authority on computers And they uh, Chalk taught him taught this guy how if the feds come to the door Hit this one button and it's all gonna disappear. Don't put don't write anything now on paper mark You don't write new york giants minus six 80 times You just you know, just anytime they come in you get nervous. Somebody's coming in the door You just hit the button So what happens then and they they had After they all got arrested they went to this restaurant and the the squad got Knowledge of it. So they put bugs under the table And so they uh, they listened to it And the galley was saying What did you do do I bring a guy in I pay him tens of thousands of dollars All you've got to do is you've got my hit to buy and everything disappears You've got it all written out. You've got a well. I needed a backup He needed a backup like and I I was I was sad tears in my eyes because they brought this guy in and paid thousands of dollars Well, all this stuff and he still wrote it down Man That's how the genius So the so the other guy got he killed him because he was being sent for and he and he was uh Sort of being defiant and uh, that that's why Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, he wouldn't go in. You don't do that. That might have been the last The not the last it's one of the last Uh, um, Connecticut mob hits Yeah, do we know why he wasn't going in that he was a castellano guy or something Do we know he just he was defiant and just said no just tell him See because he wasn't talking to god Maybe if he talked to gaudy on the phone a couple years after gaudy took over I think it was 88. Uh, let's see. I got that. Yeah, 88 1988 very good February 4th, 1988 Yeah, yeah, they just figured I tell him i'm i'm busy. I don't I don't need to come in There were a couple incidences like that were uh, there's one where they caught gaudy on a wire saying he was gonna cut a guy's head off because No, that was what I think that was when he kept on I might be confusing situation, but there was one situation where gaudy kept on calling a guy And like it took him like three or four calls to the guy's house For the guy to call gaudy back And he was like, well, I gotta call you four times. He's like the next time you do that I'm gonna chop your head off. Well, that's that's what happened with the the brizzy but he never went They finally got him in new york and they they killed him But you know what makes me and learning a lot about this stuff I spoke a lot of places with henry hill And I'd see to look on people's faces as they would come up for the autographs and everything afterwards And uh, henry drew drew a lot of pictures so they would come and buy pictures. They were enthralled by See guys a lot of guys I learned a lot over the years a lot of guys would want to be in organized crime They would love to be in organized crime And go and go see back at the time front row with sinatra where they move everybody and they bring tables into the whole bit But they're too afraid they they they don't want to you know, I make it killed or I don't I don't want to go to jail But they want to do that so bad and and nowadays you hear Oh and vegas it's it's a shame it used to be so good before when the mafia ran every day in the air Yeah, and so, you know my point to that is and I seen this a lot So wait a minute So me your uncle's store where they went in and they wanted a thousand dollars a week from him And they beat him up when they could and this and why not with that one So you're okay with all that stuff that happens you uh, you like that We're popping up all over the place Back then and then even now I don't know if you've kept up with the veto But us on the show we've been talking about it over the last year and a half there the the lake mead in las vegas is losing water level and literally You're reaching a point where you have over a half dozen bodies that have People think it's related to you know, the tony's pilotro rain There in vegas that you saw on casino So I you know, it makes me laugh over this idol idol this with with idol worshiping Yeah, I don't worshiping up of the mom, you know, it's uh, I guess because I was on the other side and I worked it And thank god. I think I did a decent job for the time. I did it and uh, and I just uh, you know You could talk to any the fbis or guys like that and they'll say the same thing It disgusts them when they see these people glorifying it, you know Let's uh Vito, let's bring joe in. I'm sorry that it's taking us almost 45 to go You know, I hear the story over and over and I get chills down my spine Joe's one of the good is one of the good guys and uh, has worked on a lot of uh, investigations true crime investigations in multiple states um, really, uh um You know digs his heels in and and rolls his sleeves up and uh, just is very thorough Uh, I consider him a friend. So joe tell us the story of how you got involved in this I I was following the scalpel case michael scalpel On 1975 kennedy cousin by marriage ephel kennedy's nephew Uh, eventually some uh, 25 years later was they brought charges against him in the marthamax murdered vito worked on that case as a PI for the attorneys. I wrote multiple stories in scalpel's defense. I read mark firman's book I didn't buy a lot of what was in there and I continued to pound out articles Vito came across an article hit me up on facebook We became friends and this is about the time that rogue town comes out He then starts giving me assignments and asking me to do certain things which hey, he ain't telling vito. No, no I'm just kidding. Vito's a great guy. He asked me to Cover the air and her nana's murder trial. He asked me uh, if I would write book two Which I was completely humbled by and I said absolutely at that time denny had not passed away But then he said denny had so much on his table and I said vito. I'll do it and then vito became ill I became ill and we got behind a little bit. We decided to put addition one back out And he said joe, why don't we take some of what we got for two and move into this uh, The uh revision here of this book and I said vito if that's the way you want to do it I concur. Let's do it. But I met him through the scalpel case and other articles I had written he was impressed with me. He found me and uh, we've been friends We've talked to each other almost daily ever since the day we met over michael's cake Well, you know joe, uh, I just want to you know, sing your praises a little bit more Uh, and benny you can hit the siren on this Back when I was making my bones as an investigative reporter. I'm the white boy rick investigation joe was one of the early Local media outlets here in detroit that really gave me a platform to Get you know with a megaphone and start telling people the real story Of what had happened to him if people don't know white boy rick was a teenage FBI informant in detroit And uh up until about 10 years ago. Nobody knew the FBI informant part. They just knew that he was a teenage drug dealer Operating in the late 80s detroit, which was like, you know, the second coming of vietnam with the type of violence That was erupting every day and rick became kind of a tabloid icon around here Was doing life in prison And when I hooked up with him about 20 years into a sentence He told me all this stuff about The fbi recruiting them out of eighth grade seemed crazy But I was able to verify it really quickly That story eventually got out to the to the mainstream media. They made a movie about it We have a documentary on netflix and he eventually got out of prison But if it wasn't for people like joe Who was giving, you know, this was back in the uh late 2000s early 2010s The movie didn't come out till 2018. Um, and he didn't get out until 2020 But uh people like joe were really the catalyst they got on board and the more traction I got with People like joe and outlets like joe it got out of detroit and got to the national media But joe helped so much with uh his interest in that case and we probably did a half dozen Uh radio interviews and print interviews talking about that case and people like us me and jimmy need to spread the word About people like veto and frank um as much as we talk about the actual gangsters and wise guys and mob bosses That are embedded into the you know, the fabric of our of our pop culture. Um The guys that you you know, you saw in the movie serpicoe or you saw in copland or you saw in um Donnie broscoe uh with with jopa stone those guys are the real heroes and uh I don't know if people understand that the history timeline and jimmy can maybe speak to this too. I mean There just wasn't a lot of investigation into these guys. Um Until the 70s and so when guys like veto and guys like frank, um You know dove into the deep end of an ocean that hadn't really been swam before Uh, I think sometimes you lose context and not to not to take away From the undercover operations that were going on in the in the 90s in the 2000s and in the 2010s But the the undercover ops that were being taken on by people like frank and veto in the 70s You you were so ahead of the curve and it seems like it was so much more not that it's ever Not dangerous, but it seems like it was even more dangerous To be doing it when you were doing it and and putting your life on the line to to be able to Expose what needed to be exposed Very courageous Yeah courageous And you know what that makes me when I jump in to do some work for veto Give 110 percent because the man put his life out of life Always do what he wants to do and I tell you what asked me to be part of rogue town Was one of the greatest things that happened But back in the 70s he was doing it and then rogue town too. He talked about madonna badger That probably will be in book two that the fire he talked about So, uh, he's got me working on some interesting cases and i'm so grateful And scott, you know, what's interesting too When rogue town came out I I heard from a lot of cops guys. I knew guys. I didn't know Going back years a whole bit and 95 of them Loved what I did. Okay. They gave me kudos all veto. Thanks for what you did in a whole bit like that but still There was a couple people then I I heard through headquarters a couple people that said, uh, Oh, I don't I don't like veto. He he investigates cops. So my friend would say Do you realize who we investigated barry hogan and jupy morris? They killed people there Yeah, I don't care, but they were cops. So I just have to laugh when I hear something like that, you know Well, they have their own They have their own omerta, right the what is it the thin blue the blue coat or the blue wall the blue line or whatever they call it so, um that Which is another Problem and and I would say I I don't want to I guess editorialize here, but It crook cops are worse because they have the sanction of the state, right? At least the gangster, you know what you're dealing with A crook cop has seen official public sanction, which makes them in my opinion Way more dangerous than a than a gangster Just like a larry hogan one of the most dangerous corrupt people you can write Which is he isn't one of the big characters in the book. So if you guys go out and get rogue town that the new The new edition with the extra chapters that joe wrote you can it gets into larry hogan, man That is a and I hope one day that We were just like with frank panessa that we're able to see veto's story told whether it be a film or a television show but larry hogan is like I can just envision That character on the screen um as being just An actor that could get ahold of that and this guy was You know, there was there was corruption oozing out of his pores when he swept You know who he's just like who I uh from the beginning knowing larry hogan Who I pictured playing him, of course the man had died you go back to um um Rambo the first rambo The guy in the town the share right behind any oh, right I always had that cocky smile on I was larry hogan. Yeah exactly look like him the whole bed So were they was hogan mobbed up was he was he really being? Oh, yeah, it was he killed people. I mean and juke morris Anytime we would grab somebody on drugs, you know, he'd be more worried about uh, you know, well, don't please don't don't don't Give me a bond. Let me get out without any Because duke will kill me because I don't see if you didn't work for duke morris He would take in the alley and shoot you in the lane shooting in the arm Eventually he'd kill you if you refused to work for him And this was just and I talk about in the book After I when I realized that I got larry hogan after me And I'm parking my car at headquarters and I'm thinking myself This is the safest place basically that you would ever want to park your car But it's not because somebody would put something on my window or do something like that and I go Is this crazy or not? This is police headquarters. I know everybody's car is here. This I'm safe here But no, I come out and there's damage or there's this or that to your own vehicle, you know But that's how bad it was. He was he was a bad man And I'm both of them were they were bad bad people bad people, you know as we wrap up here This was I had an amazing time doing this interview and I know our audience will will uh, will love it and um Let me say I'm gonna say this now and then I'm gonna say it again when we wrap up Please like subscribe and share I promise jimmy I was gonna do that at the beginning of the episode and I forgot So like subscribe share Gangster report or sorry original gangsters a podcast And the youtube channel so we you can tell you can learn and listen to more great stories like we got from veto Um, last thing I want to ask tell us about your testimony in front of the commission For me. Yeah Well, I don't follow. Did you not did you not testify in front of the presidential commission for Oh, no that anthony dolin did that dolin did okay, okay, and anthony dolin testified about that Reagan was running for his first term And they said ragan turned all red when he found out about all this corruption and everything like that And he he hired him point blank. He still works and he still works in washington right now He's worked for uh, everybody coming through the ranks, uh, you feel like this is your is this your legacy? I mean, is your legacy the fact that your work Created this presidential commission. I mean you have a lot of a legacy. You have a very layered legacy But what would you say, you know, is the the caption you have a lot of people though, too And what it wasn't just me? Uh, anthony dolin, we're we're a couple of months different in our age He came on in early 20s. I was doing this in early 20s And uh, so he did a hell of a lot The good citizens of stanford the honest ones came forward and say hey Going to town hall open up the file cabinet. Look under this and you're gonna see this and that They did that stuff then too. So I mean I I uh, I had it. I was so Angry, I wanted to get them so bad for what they were doing So I did my share but still there was so many people and anthony dolin just pinned him against the wall He had death threats and you know, geez Uh, so that's that I appreciate I appreciate what you said, but there was many people involved. So Frank canessa Who we've had on as a friend of the show. He did testify Before that presidential commission that scott is talking about Frank canessa Yeah, okay did testify at that commission So, uh, just as we're as we're wrapping up joe and and veto tell everyone where they can, uh, consume the gift of book. I mean, obviously on amazon, um, but if there's another way for them to To get it let them know if they're not living in connecticut and can't go to a bookstore Well, joe knows that if it's if it's anybody in the michigan area They can see him. He has a big supply of books. If not amazon Is is selling them like crazy thank god and uh, you know, it's It's it's funny because when the first i'll tell you quickly when the first road town book came out the Barnes and nobles and the places were calling me. They said veto. I need 80 more books. I said, I dropped you 80 yesterday Blah blah blah. So I asked the lady the head lady I said, why do you think it's selling that many copies? She said well, we have so many people especially ladies that like true crime So they come in and they'll look at all the books. They are true crime and then all of a sudden they'll see Anthony Dolan wins the Pulitzer. Oh, okay. So a lot of the stuff in this book Want a Pulitzer? Okay, then they say that it It changed around all around o'ragan stain. It's put new new things in the going. Oh, this is interesting So this is this is talking about that and then on the bottom of the page back then I had Henry hill second Uh, it had my name and he said a little something about me on that too. So I think that was a selling point Uh, when a guy went when it's a Pulitzer for the stories inside the book It's kind of like, uh, wow, let me see what's going on So but the the stories were by everybody. It was amazing. It was amazing Tell everyone where people can uh read your stuff and if you want to pitch anything or uh promote anything Yeah, if you can find me on twitter joe m cochran. You can find me on facebook as joe cochran. Just check me there Um, it's got my credentials there. Um, also joe on the go website at wordpress.com I'm I'm planning on putting some new articles up since uh, you know, and I got this book finished And uh, you can reach me that way also a lot of people in this area in this tri-county area I'm telling you the truth right now. I've had Not I know this isn't live, but I've had people send me a message Here's my phone number. I want to buy the book. I'm selling them at book signings and people are meeting me in the area So I will sell them in person and I'll go a little ways to sell you the book Yeah, if you're from detroit or you're from the michigan area contact joe Uh, please you're if you're not go through the traditional channels Uh and and traditional platforms. This was great. Thank you veto. Thank you joe I know the audience is going to love it and again, we we tip the hat to the og law enforcement like veto, uh, who who pays up to who whose work and Uh service Pay it forward. Uh, so much, you know, the rest of society, you know, scott joe works very cheap All he works for is little debbie cakes I don't know. I just Do All the email addresses sports tv 1000 at yahoo.com want to reach me I'll get you a book of rogue town because I feel it's one of the best books. I've ever read or been a I'm so glad to be part of it. I'm gonna show it one more time. Uh, that's the the book rogue town Uh, 10 year anniversary new edition, uh with added content is out now It's been out for about a month or so 100 more pages than the last 100 more pages. Yep, and rogue town two will follow Okay, great. Thank you guys, uh for uh, please remember like subscribe share We'll keep spreading the word and and uh grinding out new content. We're going to be giving you more consistent content I've been teasing uh a gear store coming soon And I'm hoping that I'm going to be able to put that together in the next month or two I know I said uh springtime, but I'm hoping now by the end of the summer Um, yeah, one more thing. I I've done a lot of of shows. I've done a lot of things with with writers But I got to tell the public listening Uh, this is a this is my first time hearing the show You guys gotta you got something great here working out here with these guys. They do hard work Well, everything they do is this is by most fun And not only fun, but seriousness that I've ever done in an interview So the folks keeping tune. I don't know if this is weekly or whatever, but keeping tune because these guys are good They don't we're honored. We're humbled And the real deal they show rocks. This is great. This is great Thank you and and veto. I know like uh, again ben can hit the slurring on this, but we've got uh Listeners and viewers and I believe five or six continents now around the globe And we're growing we're growing uh exponentially every day and it's people like you and that kind of support and that kind of uh Testimonial is is what moves the needle. So again, we tip our hat to you. Thank you very much veto Like subscribe share Scott Bernstein, we'll see you next week on the og pod. We're out