 When I finished training and passed my commando tests, we were awarded our green berries. My family came to the parade. I was very proud. I didn't think I'd go to war. The House meets this Saturday to respond to a situation of great gravity. We are here because for the first time for many years, British sovereign territory has been invaded by a foreign power. Dave, how are you, brother? I'm fine, thank you. Busy after my seven weeks in Argentina. Yeah. Oh my gosh, we'll come on to that. Yeah. We'll come on to that. And I think busy for veterans is probably a good thing, isn't it? Yeah, I think most people I know tend to not sit around even when they retire. They tend to keep going. And I think that's a pretty good philosophy to have, really. I don't know if it's in our genetic makeup in some ways or perhaps, you know, we've got that driving determination just to keep going on whatever we choose to do, really. So yeah. Yes, and I've worn my core pattern shirt in your honour. Yeah, well, it was a choice. Like I said earlier, either my Ramstein tour t-shirt, which is a great passion of my music or something more relevant to the audience. I was going to say we've all got a few core t-shirts that probably not appropriate for the public. Yeah. Dave, I'm fascinated to chat about the Falklands. I have to say, you know, they're the only podcast I really struggled to get through without getting really emotional. I think they affected not just us as a nation, but anybody obviously that served there or that was caught up in just the massive enormity of the event and the media surrounding it. I mean, I was 12 at the time, but I can remember driving down. I think it must have been from Southampton when Canberra got in. We were coming back off a family holiday and for some reason we just almost ended up in this, like, I don't know if quartages is the right word, of vehicles that were just packed with service, you know, not packed with service people, but service people and their family that had been there to pick them up. And it was just, as a kid, we were just waving at all the servicemen and they were waving back and it was like, these are our Falklands heroes, you know, and of course, there's a much, much deeper, you know, what do we call it, traumatic story behind it, probably every person there that I was waving to. And I know that if they're still alive, they're still dealing with it to this day. So going to your story, how well were you when you joined the Corps? I was 16 years and two weeks. I remember when I was 14, seeing an advert. It was an advert of a rigid radar landing on a beach with palm trees and just something clicked them ahead and thought, no, that's what I wanted to do. So subsequently, I focused on what CSEs, I was in the mid, we call it the mid range, which was, you were not in the CSE group, but you weren't in the O-Level group. You're sort of in between, which is interesting things to say in that now. Because I think that's where a lot of veterans live. In between the stereotypes and the heroic archetypes, I think a lot of us live in that space. I'll come on to that later. Sorry, Dave, I just hopped us on pause then because you froze for a bit, but yeah, keep going. So, yeah, I saw this advert and decided that's what I want to do. I sort of gave up on education in a way. I just did the minimum. I always joke that I got an O-Level in Geography, CSE Grade 1, so I could read a map in the Marines. That's always been my sort of narrative about my school experience. So I joined two weeks after my 16th birthday in 1974. I realized very young that I didn't want to be a gravel baddie. So as soon as I got a job, I don't want to be carrying heavy weights. There's an irony here. So I decided I quite fancied being a signalist. I went on to do an R-Race course, went out to Maltimer first rough for one, and then ironically was wandering around carrying all the kit plus an A41. So, you know, that plan didn't work. I didn't spend much time sat in the back of an FFR, which is what I sort of fantasized over, you know, about sitting there smiling at all the grabs with all the kit they were carrying. From there, I went on to HGN6, the sort of, as we used to say, the worst draft for a signaler because you seem to spend all your time painting wagons. And then from there, I went on the Malt team, when the Malt team was a proper Malt team where there was very, very few of us at Yelverton before Chosk as a pre-Chosk days. And I think there was probably five or six Marines, a couple of sergeants, a couple of sergeant PW, a band, obviously. So it was probably one of my best requests because the senior age treated you with a certain amount of respect, being a bootie, and the other ranks were slightly nervous of you because they couldn't make you out. And that's actually one of my best drafts. It really was a good draft. And in the meantime, the Corporal Air crew for the Seeking started to come through. I can't remember all of them. I remember Chris Petricatus who died in an abseiling accident. And one of my great friends, Doc Love, who was killed in a helicopter crash in the Falklands Wall. And I'd known Doc all the way through my time in HQ in SIGS. And actually, I didn't realise until 25 years later, I sort of blocked that out in a way. We were just great friends. We went to see Led Zeppelin together. We went to see The Who, you know, Boston on their first UK tour. He was a great status quo fan. So we went to see status quo together. And we're there like groupies trying to get backstage, you know, all those things that, you know, you're doing your 20s, plus the runs are short, Union Street, you know, I've got some great pictures of us absolutely hammered on Union Street lying on the floor. You know, so you do what you do in your 20s while you're in the court. Don't you ever, you have a gang of mates who you go on the lash with. You chose girls, you know, and you know, in our case, we would listen to rock music. We used to do all the local gigs around Plymouth, the Chapel. I can't remember all of them, but there was a bit of a swan. Obviously, the Plymouth Feathers on the Sunday, you know, we used to do that. That's what we used to do. But anyway, when you came up to Yuletown as their crew, we reconnected, you know, and spent two years, you know, going on the lash, making a new sense of ourselves. You know, playing out the stereo type of being a bootie in a naval establishment, you know, I mean, the amount of times I was on Blum and Captain's table and got away with it, you know, because my Dio was pretty good. He was pretty good with me, you know. And then I got married in 1980 to Suzanne, my first wife, and then moved back when I got promoted to the corporal, got back to Anthracian and said, oh, my goodness, yeah, great. In November of 1981, and then from the November of 1981, I took over from someone called Doc Turnbull, as Julian Thompson's cobalt signal. The winter, we, as always, we went to Norway. And then we returned on the Thursday, which was probably something like 30th of March. I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, but I am old now. So and then turned two on the first of April on the Friday and then spent the weekend preparing to go down south. You know, the usual pack the lamb rovers, getting on the Saturday, unpack the lamb rovers, pack the BBs, you know, move your equipment cost to another BB, you know, all that sort of stuff. It was just endless. And I can remember going home once during that weekend to see Suzanne, my first wife and my parents and my in-laws at the time for a few hours. And I think that if I recall, that's probably the the most time I spent at home that weekend. We then, some of us went down south on a proper ship. You know, we didn't swim around on some cruise liner. Like a lot of people I know did, you know, I went down on fearless. So we boarded fearless on the Monday evening. Someone told me a bit recently that I have to be dragged out of a pub on Monday night. A few of us decided to go for a wet, which people had meant to, you know, usual stuff, got dragged out, told to get back on board, was, you know, making the most of it, you know, because you're free cans a night from the Tuesday onwards, you know. And then we sailed on the Tuesday. I can't remember much about most of my, my, my father's narrative has been filled in by the people, you know. I mean, I, I, and I've come to the, my reflections. I do a lot of reflection. I've always written in journals. I've got about 14 of all stuff that goes on in my head, which I tend to write down. I found a good way of me reading it and then reflecting on and trying to, I'm a bit of a naval gazer, to be honest. You know, I'm always questioning for one of a better expression. You know, what's my part in all of this? You know, what, you know, I'm, I'm what's called an existentialist. And I, when I work with veterans, the way I work as I, I, I, I tend to work on this philosophy that you can't change the past. But what you can do is you can find ways to accept it. And whatever veterans I'm seeing and families, I sort of try and concentrate on that first. And I don't work with, you know, sometimes I won't talk about Afghanistan with the veterans. I'll talk about how that has an impact on them today. And I think that's really important. And then we look at ways in which we can make the future more positive. So I sort of have adopted that in, in most of what I, well, in all of what I do, to be honest, but I, I, it's taken me a long time to come to that point where I'm really comfortable with that. You know, it's come, it's come from therapy. It's come from spending time in combat stress, which again, I can come on to later. But anyway, I went down south for Central Islands, we're sailing. And my, my first memory of the Falcons and one that stayed with me is I was on the mess deck a couple of days before we landed. And I, a friend, Bronco Lane, it was part of the 1970s, 80 and six piss and up crew came down and told me that he had some, one of the speech to me up on the deck. So I went up on a deck with him and we lent on the, we lent on the, you know, the veil there and he said, dog love side. And, you know, it was difficult in a way because what I decided to do psychologically, and I know this now as I sort of shrugged my shoulders and block it out really, I think it's probably the, probably the, what I, how I was able, because I think there's a lot of things going on. You know, you, you know, there's no turning back. You know, you've got a job to do. You know, you want to come out the other end, you know. So, so I went down the mess deck, told the mess deck, you know, different responses, you know, you know, typical bravado from the people that didn't know him and non bravado from the people that knew him. So, and then we landed you know, saying Carlos, which is well documented. I don't, I don't talk much about what happened down south. You know, I have specific memories, you know, and I think a lot of my memories were, came back to me when I went back down there on the 25th anniversary, which again, I can come on to later because it's a big part of my journey. So, and then I, what happened is that the baguette HQ took a near miss. So I remember them digging it in deeper and then it was decided that, that, that they needed the TACXQ to go out and the TACXQ was made up of two BBs. So we left San Carlos and we went to Teal Inlet where we forwarded the baguette. From there, we then, as my friends with TACXQ told me, were plonked on the mountains, various mountains through the period of the rest of the war. We didn't, we didn't, we didn't have any contact with the baguette HQ for the whole duration of the war, but we were actually out on a limb. You know, we, we were shelled, moving in the dark. We were bombed a couple of times. And a lot of that, I really can't remember specifically to be, to be honest, I just focused on the job I had to do. And with a small TACXQ unit, you know, you were doing the fence and you were doing the radio watches and you were making sure I was fed, et cetera, et cetera. So it was pretty brutal in a sense, but we were lucky. We had a BV, we weren't cold, we weren't wet, you know, and, you know, we weren't as short as food, you know, the things that the, the, the, the, the grabs went through, you know, I mean, but that was my job in reflection. It's the job I choose to do, you know, and we all had a part to play. I know that now. And so, and then when we went down to Baguio HQ for the first time as when Baguio HQ was bombed by, I can't remember, it was three or five aircraft. And then we, we, we, we bobbed out again. We, you know, crashed, moved the TACXQ, you know, and the reason we were out there is if the baguio got blown up, they still had command and control over the, over the units in front. And then from there we, we moved towards Stanley, yeah, close to the Stanley and the night before the war ended, we ended up in a, in a, in a minefield, one of the vehicles, the Royal Artillery Vehicle hit a mine. Both the guys were, were, were fine. The 2-9 CO had a damaged twist back inch. The signal was like in shock. Again, another memory. I remember him walking out, walking towards me, sticking his head in the window, the BB and saying, hello, Jacob, we just hit a mine, you know, like it wasn't obvious. It's a vehicle in front of you on its side. So that was a memory and a sense is that we, we then went into automatic pilot in relation to how we dealt with it. The people are, you know, all the passengers, you've heard come as they, they walked out the minefield and I was the first vehicle in the line of three, I think it was to come out the minefield. The way, the way I dealt with that is I convinced myself during that evening that it wasn't the minefield. It was a stray mind and they were unlucky. And I think in a way, as I reflect on that, that enabled me to, to not have a completely meltdown. A better expression. And I can remember all the guys when they were all back on the track looking back at me, smiling and laughing. You know, I'm black humor. I mean, couldn't say, you know, and me, you know, flicking the Vs to him, you know, and that's how you cope. You know, that's how you cope. So anyway, on Stanley War ended. So, you know, and I've been filled in with a lot of stuff. My colleagues, I was with Steve Pope when we've chatted over beer, you know, when we get together. But, you know, when it finished for me, it finished, you know, I had a career in the Marines to think about, you know, so that really was my sort of my, my position on it. Really, that's how I, that's how I thought, why move on, get home, you know, pick up my life. I came back on fielders. I arrived back in Stonehouse the day after Canberra. And, you know, I think this is a bigger part of my Falcon story, to be honest. I think it's, in a way, it enabled me to deal with my subsequent, you know, mental health disabilities, to be honest. So I came back and my in-laws were there, but my wife hadn't come down to meet me, which was a bit of a shock to be putting it bluntly. My brothers had come down. So, and when I went back to Launston where I lived, you know, I asked the wife, she hadn't come down and she said she couldn't cope, you know, she couldn't cope with it. And I really respected that. So then there was a period of time where things weren't actually right and not right at all, to be perfectly honest. So I just sent on six weeks leave, you know, no, you know, no therapy, no, what do they call it, the thing that they do in site-press? I can't remember what they do. Oh, like deflation or what? Decompression, I think they called it. Yeah, no decompression. Sent on leave six weeks, you know. Summer leave, Easter leave, and a week for your troubles, I think it was like. So, and, you know, things weren't right. And she knew Dot loved very well. So she was saying that, you know, she can't come to terms with Dot being killed. And of course, you know, you accept that, you know, you accept that and gave her a lot of time to get her shit together. So, Dave, just for our friends at home. Yeah, of course. It was Michael Love, wasn't it? Yeah. Nicknamed Doc. Yeah. And was his, his aircraft was brought down by a bird strike. Yeah, a bird strike with all that satin. Oh, my God. How many SCS were on board? I think there was 22. I mean, it was a sea king. I think there was a lot and a lot of them died. And I can't remember, you know, I don't, you know, I mean, I don't do the facts and figures. It's not my fucking bird, though. Jesus Christ, a fucking bird. Oh, there you go. Yeah. So, eventually I, I caught Suzanne out basically, you know, she said she was going to be somewhere. I needed the car. By that time I was well into partying and basically drinking my way through life to be perfectly blunt. And, you know, she wasn't where she said she was going to be. And then I went round to the parents of a friend and they said they hadn't seen her for weeks. And then I went round to where she was playing squash with a friend and told her to get home. We need to talk. And then she just said that she met his friend. And I said, well, you know, I asked the blunt, you know, whether she'd been shagging him. She said, no, no, no. And I said, well, I need to meet him because my logic then I'd had enough to be honest. My logic then was, well, if he has, he's not going to, he's not going to want to meet me. That was my logic. So at that point, everything, everything in my life about just disappeared, you know, I had, I had bigger fish to fire. I had bigger things to sort out in my life, you know, I mean, so, um, I, in true Boonex style, I, it was November. It was November the third. Funny how you remember, I can't remember the bonds and that, but I can remember dates like that in it. And I said, I'll meet him. Bull Vental, Jamaica Inn, which was about, you know, 15, 20 minutes from where we lived. Eight o'clock. Now it's it. So my logic was like, you know, that if he was up to no good, he wouldn't actually, wouldn't actually meet me. So I had a few beers turned up at Bull Vental, sat in a crowded pub. Um, I went in first. The first thing he said to me was, oh, I, I've been waiting. I wanted to make sure he bought any mates along. Yeah. And I just said to him, why would I bring mates? Why would I bring mates along? Why? So I said, you know, he's been shagging my wife straight out, you know, very loud actually in the pub because I, you know, I, I thought, no, you know, I'm not going to do this quietly. And, um, he said, well, no, no, no, we've been for walks. I supported her. I know you lost your friend. I said, well, I'll ask you again. You know, have you been having an affair with my wife? And he said, no. Now, this guy was overweight, bold and 24 years older than me. He's married at three kids. So I said, you married, you know, cause I still the question, married, got children, right? So I was trying to build a picture which, which actually would not, you know, support my gut feeling, I suppose, for one of a better expression. So that was on the Tuesday. Then on, on the Friday, we had the, um, the free drinking session, courtesy of Plymouth, you know, the victory parade and the pubs were when you got lashed up the hell. So I went on the lash with a view that I would, um, you know, stay in stone house or blah, blah, blah, wherever I fell. And then I just had this feeling that seven o'clock that evening that I needed to go home and I, for the life for me, I don't know why, you know, I was out with mates and I just, I'm going home. So, you know, as you did, when you were three years, you know, I got in my car, drove from Plymouth to Trigadilly, and they launched them where I lived. And I got to the app that bungalow would have been and I couldn't get in. The key would not open the door. So it was obviously a deadlock on either side. And then Suzanne come out clearly throwing on her clothes for getting to put a bra on. And then just penny drop. So I just walked through the house, saw this guy going out the window, the spare bedroom, we live in the cul-de-sac. So I knew that to go around to get to his car, which I assumed was in the pub, he'd have to go around the house. So I just backed up and went through out front door. He couldn't run very fast to be perfectly blunt. So I chased him out the road. And, you know, he said, you know, do you want to fight over her? And I said something, something that's a melodramatic. I just wanted you two to be honest and clearly pair of lying twats. I just wanted to know the truth. And he puts his fist down so I had butted him. And then dragged him back to the house and I did drag him. And then I made a point of shouting to all the neighbours, who knew what was going on. See this man, you know, you bunch of twats. I was pretty angry to people. And I said, you know, I sat them both down and said, right, you know, if I ever see you again, I'm going to kill you ever. You know, I don't care. You sell insurance and wants to see you or kill you. And I said to Suzanne, get out. I'm going to go and bring your parents. They're going to come up and I want to see you again. So, so that was that became my, my, you know, that sort of put a buffer between me and subsequent issues I've had over the years, you know, up to when I left. So, you know, and then I went on to 21 years after that, you know, I enjoyed it. You know, some of it's pretty boring in it, you know, you do exercise and you think what it helps a point, you know, I mean, I think post-Volkland. So there was a lot of people who wanted to make a name for themselves. Who didn't go down self. Certainly, perhaps staff officers that might have sat beyond a desk driving a desk during the war. I felt there was a lot of that going on, which is understandable. Anyway, I, I, I, I then make tell a sergeant, I tore my cartilage. Simply, I went to have my cartilage looked at to see if I was P2 again, with a view that I do my first straight state strip 40, which I was really looking forward to. And the consultant said, you know, where do you work? I said, no manner. He says, well, you don't really want to drive up there this afternoon. For a couple of hours, I said, no, not really so. And he said, got any other problems? And by chance, I just said, look, I've had problems with my hips. I've got this pain in my hip. And I never had it before. He said, look, go and get some x-ray done. I'm going to go to lunch, come back wherever we do a poll check. So he did my knees, my back and both my hips. And I came back into the room and he said, I'm sorry. Colors, you know, you're out. I mean, not obviously not as blunt as that, but he said, you're out. You've got arthritis in both your hips. He, you know, my left was, was poor. My right was just riddled, riddled with arthritis. My wife Sharon's a physio. So I remember going back home. And she says, oh, you, you, you often September then I said, no, I can't get down. She says, you're joking. And she had, you know, she had a treatment room at home. She put me on the bench and I looked at me, left him. She was not too bad, you know, and she looked at my right. And she said to me, I never forget it. She said, you got a hip of an eight year old. You know, so I then had a medical discharge and reflection. The best way to get out, you know, because you do get your, your pension in relation to the time that you've done. The injuries have to be attributable clearly from age 16. The warm wings knackered my body. I was found at that time to have my arthritis in the spine, lower back. That explained a lot of my back issues. And both my knees were short. I'd already had an anterior cruciate replacement. So, you know, and I went outside and I was told to get on with it. So basically after that, I, I, I decided I didn't want to go into another uniform. I, I wanted to do something really diverse. So I, I, I trained at a psychotherapist and I worked as a psychotherapist. We've been further education in the schools in Cornwall. We've messed up youngsters, you know, and that was my childhood and career. And to be honest, I was, I was good at it. You know, I was good at it. So that really is, is for me, is my, is my folk and story. You know, there's no, you know, it's just like what happens. You know, and I wouldn't change any of that. I wouldn't change what happened to him in Suzanne. She obviously didn't let me laugh, did she? You know, in the day, you know, and I, I, I married Sharon. I've been married to Sharon for a long, long time. We got two lovely girls who've got grandchildren, you know. So, you know, what I mean to be, was it, you know, that's not how my life was mapped out. Dave, would you change living in Lawson? No. No. Goodness me, no. Because I, what, what, I lived in Tragedy, which is, you know, towards Bob Minmore, a few miles outside of Lawson. So when we got divorced, you know, I had this big fat lump of money. Yeah. So I didn't want to, I didn't want to live it. I, you know, I wish it'd been an outlier. You don't want to be an inlier again. It's a corporal living in a box in Starr's Bouch. There's no way. So I was able to buy a house for 12 grand in Lawson in 1983, 12 grand. You know, and from that, I did it up, sold it, bought the next one for, for 26. And then we had the boom and we also had the interest rate hike. We had the boom, so I was able then to buy, to sell that for 88 and keep some land separate as a, as a safety net. And I, and we bought in Lawson for, you know, 105 grand, you know, that was back in the 80s, you know, a huge house. There's a lesson there for young Marines, isn't there? I bought my first box in Crown Hill, well, between Crown Hill and West Park, bought it for, I think 40, which was a lot. That was the, you know, that was a lot of money back in the day. That was like the limit of what you could borrow. Sold it for, I don't know, was 160, moved in with my dream girl. And now we've got, I'm not going to say it's a palace, but we don't care. It's ours. We've got a garden and we've got a garage and I'll tinker in the garage with my boy and we play football. We've got a football, we made a football pitch in the back garden. And it's to all you youngsters out there in the forces, don't piss it all away. Just get down, get down the bloody building society, get lie about you more. I told him that when I went to Norway, I earned all this extra money. Well, I mean, we did, right? But, you know, you've got to like, even though the, even though the draft I was in, we didn't go to Norway. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, they, they look into, you know, you're a safe bet as a service person. Of course, of course. Yeah, that's a lesson there for all of us. Yeah. And I mean, I told, I, I hang on to that place and so as we were in this. I mean, she's five bedroom, five reception at Victorian hours, me and Sharon, when the girls left and went to university and then went to lead their own lives. We were sat there banging off the walls. So we bought a barn out near Calington, middle of nowhere. And we've been here about 11 years now. But in the meantime, the market was really flat. So I, I just rented the house out as a lovely family. And so, and I sold that two years ago, you know, because of the market, because everyone wanted to live in the Southwest. So it was just a good time to sell. Spent 18 months getting it to up to some sellable standard. You know, where it would make the most money basically without spending lots on it. And, you know, I've lived in a barn conversion. It's got a couple of acres. First thing I did was convert, which is what I'm in now, convert a workshop and a and a hayloft into a and basically another property on the property, which I could do within planning, because as long as you don't have a kitchen in the shower, you can call it an amenity space. You know, what's the kitchen? Well, it's a two ring burner and a microwave. I mean, we've lived in this space for the last five years. So I did that and then decided in my wisdom six years ago to gut the barn. So I totally got the barn and I built an extension on the barn and redone the barn. They had a lot of dam problems in relation to a lot of the render had gone. So what was coming through because it's blocked, it's, you know, there's no. So so I moved back in at Christmas. But I do most of it myself. The skill work like plastic and I won't try. I can put electrics in by always get a boot net company to come and check it over and make sure it's all OK. You know, I, you know, I've done most of it and, you know, the benefit of buying this place 300 would pay for it, but I won't tell you what it's worth now. I wouldn't. I'm going to get carried out from a box here. I love it. You know, look, you know, if annual Shangri-La mate and yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, you know, I wouldn't live anywhere else anywhere else, you know. So Dave, I'm just going to like chip in here, mate. I've never done a podcast with someone that's been at war, whether that be the Falklands and it hasn't cost them dearly in terms of mental health. And that's, you know, possibly glossing over the fact of all of our buddies that have killed themselves or drunk themselves to death. And so just a simple like question. And I'm not trying to be frivolous or whatever the word is, but like, what's the fucking point of war? Why do we keep going to them? Well, if everybody that goes to them gets fucked and comes back and either, you know, spends their life in trauma, I don't know. Well, I mean, if you get the human spaces as an animal, you know, I think a long time since I taught, I used to teach psychology. If human as an animal has certain traits that are given, I can't remember them all, it's territoriality, which means that, you know, to gain territory and resources for resources. It's always been the case, always been the case. So war is something that happens in the human. And if you look at war, really, it's been about territory and resources over the last 100, well, since time and eternity. I mean, the way I, you know, I mean, the way I see 1982 now, you know, older, wiser and spent a lot of time thinking about it is that, you know, we were thrown together by the politics of that moment in history in Argentina and, you know, in Great Britain. I'm not saying that what we did was any way was not just, you only have to go back to the Falklands to have the people say thank you, even the people who went around that time to thank you for the life they've got. And that is incredibly moving and powerful, you know, if you've got any doubts, you know, and I've never had any doubts. But, you know, young men went to fight as they always do. And as they're doing in Russia and Ukraine, young men went to fight for politicians and the decisions they make. And, you know, Ukraine, about territory, you know, I mean, what was, what was Iraq about, you know, it certainly was about oil. And, you know, to a degree, the Falklands is about oil because of the resources and about fishing and about, you know, most of the squid in the world that comes from South Atlantic, you know, so let's not be naive about it. You know, there was subtext to the war, but fundamentally what we did was the right thing. I think the problem at the moment, you know, politically is that I haven't spent a lot of time in Argentina with the play. I mean, you know, what gets spouted out is only two narratives and it is the narrative of, you know, Argentinian's accusation of colonialism and the Empire, et cetera, et cetera, you know, and Great Britain's response and what I always say and I've done a lot of press over the years in Argentina to say, well, you seem to forget the third party in this and that's the Falkland Islanders. The people you have, of course. People on the islands, you know, and, you know, what I say to them is let's imagine that your area of Buenos Aires, I came along and said, I want to take over this area. I want to take over your schools. How would you feel about that? Because that's what you are suggesting that we do without acknowledging that narrative and that's as far as I go when I talk about sovereignty, you know, and, you know, I don't... I've got to be careful what I say because it would fucking come under attack for fuck's sake. But, well, I'm just going to say it. You know, they're still teaching this in their schools like it's a mega thing, you know. Yeah, but I... It'd be different if half the islanders were Argentinian. Yeah, OK, fair one. But it's this historical island that no one really can lay massive claim to. Well, because it's a rock in the middle of the sea. But it just... I mean, the thing is, is that, you know, when this podcast goes out, there will be a lot of interest in Argentina because of the play, et cetera, et cetera. And I'm not trying to sense it this in any way. But the bottom line is, for me, and this is my personal view. And again, I do speak a lot about this, is that Argentina, the Malvinas, the Falklands, as they call it, historically, was used by Poam as a way of galvanizing the nation. And they lay claim geographically. But if you know a history of their claims to the islands, it's completely different to our history. And look on Wikipedia in Spanish about Malvinas in English, you will see that it's completely odds. But it is used as a way of getting support as a political narrative, a political tool. And we're not going to change that. I think, you know, I've been into about 20 schools, while I'm with the play in Argentina, I go to schools, off me and back with people from the cast or friends I've got over there. And we give them all, I give them an alternative perspective on it all, you know, and that's what I do, you know. And it's incredibly powerful. And it's like, to be honest, when I went to a school 500, the whole school out, and afterwards you're like, you know, you're signing autographs and you're having pictures for the young people, because they've never heard anything like it. Most people in Argentina, in my experience, are too busy getting on with their lives to have too much of a concern, unless it suddenly is explicitly brought up politically during elections, et cetera. You do have a hardcore, you'll see them on Twitter, you'll see them on Facebook, you know, and basically talking nonsense. And I will say that they're talking nonsense, you know, with facts to back it up. The malvenous for me is, for me, having been there, you know, a lot, you know, I've been over there five times now. And I think about this a lot, and I think it's like, it's in their soul, right? And it is part of their identity. And that's not the war. That's this idea, in a way, fantasy, because, you know, let's not forget the gap to you really messed up, because during the 1980 and 81, there were talks between Argentina and Britain about how the islands would be shared by a long-term Hong Kong style handover, et cetera, et cetera. So he really, really did mess up. I mean, come on. We won't be having this conversation now if you haven't made a big faux pas, idiot. Dave, can I just say, Hong Kong's really misunderstood. The agreement that was signed, the Sino-Anglo agreement back in the day, it was only for the Northern Territories. It was never for the island. It was our fucking WIMP government. Excuse my French folks, but it's really screwed things up over there for everyone, right? It was our WIMP government that just gave the whole lot back. There was never a deal for the island. The island was always British. They just gave it, I mean, you know, I'm being a bit, I use the word frivolous again here, but I mean, I lived in Hong Kong for a year and I get it. You know, I used to have Hong Kongers say to me, ah, next year will be rid of you British. And I used to say, oh, what? You want your fucking street signs in Chinese, dear? You want your grandma to have to start learning to speak Mandarin, really? And they're like, oh, yeah. Sorry, I'm taking a picture. It's a really very clever culture in Hong Kong off the back of British colonialism. And I'm not defending it all around the world, but it certainly became just an incredible, incredible unique place. And of course now, you know, if you think we've had it bad this last couple of years, they've had it, you know, they've had it like even, even worse. And they will get it worse. And you can't protest in Hong Kong, you just get dragged off and you disappear. But I suppose I think for me in relation to the Falklands is you're not going to change the part of the Malvinas story, the part of the Malvinas narrative, which is actually part of what makes them Argentina. You can only do what you can do. So going into schools, going to universities, challenging some of the academics which I've done in university. I said, well, actually, no, that's not actually correct. You know, and I do it in a respectful way, you know, but it's only what they've been told and the way in some ways, you know, if we were to have someone from China here, the narrative of Hong Kong would be completely different to the narrative that you've just expressed. And we can't change any of that. But I think for me in relation to what I tend to do through the press, through TV, radio, what I'm in Argentina is trying to give an alternative perspective. And dare I say it works, you know. Dave, can you sum up the crux of what that perspective is? Because as we know in Argentinian schools, they're just taught that it's their island. We stole it. We're the invaders. We're the occupiers. What would you say to Argentinian children? What would I say in the school? I mean, I talk about, I talk about, because they are the future. Because they are the future. I talk about them being the future of Argentinian. So if you're thinking of invaded again, and I am putting it in not the terms I would use, obviously invaded again. I want you to do a very simple exercise. I want you to look at the person next to you who's your best friend. This is what I do, and I get them. I want you to look into their eyes, stare at each other. And I have to be quite assertive. I want you to close your eyes now. Yeah. And then look to the front. Open your eyes. Your best mate is gone. Completely disappeared. Dead. You're never going to see that person again. You're never going to experience being young with that person again. And I say, that's what war does. That's what war does. Is that what you want for your future? We need to find another way. I talk about the Fogman Islands a lot. I talk about, you know, understanding that, you know, people's perspective of history is different. I don't talk about sovereignty. If anyone asks me, could you get asked some really, really, really challenging questions? I say, well, you know, we have a difference of opinion. And it's not about, it's about respecting. You know, most Argentinians I've met, and I've met hundreds of veterans, respect my position on sovereignty, and I respect theirs. I don't think you can do any more because it is part of, unfortunately, what makes them what they are. I mean, I think in a way, in relation to the schools, well, that's, you know, we have no control over that. But I think the opposite can be said about in relation to how we teach history in our schools. You know, what we should be doing with young people is giving them good news. Let's be clear, Dave, we don't teach history. We indoctrinate them with the fucking bullshit that keeps the status quo. Well, I suppose, but the thing is, it's, and we can't change these systems in place, you know, and I think what for me is important is, you know, for me, the history of war doesn't end when the fighting stops. What we ignore is, OK, if you're going to send young men to war, you need to be looking at the historical narrative of what happens to young men who become old men within society. Now, going back to a point earlier is that, you know, to me, and this is from working as a psychologist in the research I've done over the years, is that war has an impact on you. It's actually how the degree. Now, you know, to me, it's not as simple as, you know, let's say the bottom line is you don't have PTSD unless you're diagnosed. But I know lots of people out there who, you know, I think, you know, you've got all the signs for PTSD, but they haven't got it unless they have a diagnosis from a medical professional, the medical model. We need to, you know, give you a diagnosis otherwise it doesn't exist. But the bottom line is, you know, war impacts on people to a larger lesson degree. And there's so many factors which will determine how they integrate, accept, deal with those experiences. And, you know, the medical model for me is too simplistic in relation to and also what then? What then? You get a diagnosis. What then? You know, that's the question. And if you look at recommendations for therapy within NICE, which is the National Guidelines, you know, PTSD, I'm not so sure, I haven't read it for a couple of years, would not recommend in sending veterans to see me because I don't work within their perceived framework, which is nonsense. Because I work in a different way than, and they had a warning that, you know, it could be, they didn't say dangerous, you know, but they were saying don't, you know, send the people who use stuff like Dave Jackson and they don't say Dave Jackson, but you know what I'm saying. And that's where all, I think that's where it fails veterans because it doesn't look at us as individuals that looks at us as objects, not as, you know, with an objective experience. So, you know, A, B, C, D, E, you've got PTSD, A, B, C, no, you haven't. Do you know what I mean? So, can we come on to that? Sorry to interrupt you, mate, but, you know, this is, I've done the last, I think five years in my life has been raising money for veterans in various, you know, charity stunts. I studied to master's degree level in the social sciences. I'm a qualified youth and all my degrees in youth and community work. I'm passionate about young people. I went on to study social work and combine like live work and travel in 75 countries across all seven continents, plus being in combat when I was 19 years old. Like I have quite a unique view on this, I think, and I'd love to, you know, I think we need to get this out there because I feel that you're probably seeing life or PTSD the way, certainly the way that I do. But if we're not, at least we can meet in the middle and hopefully get something good. What I just wanted to say before we leave the Argentinian thing is I, when I recovered from chronic addiction, I wanted to teach street kids in Mozambique. It's a bit of a bizarre thing, but, you know, my calling was these kids that were living on the streets over there and there was an opportunity to go. To do so, I had to study for six months in Norway. They have unofficial universities in Norway. They call them folk high schools. So I went over there and I'm studying with like 70 lovely people from all around the world. My best mate become Argentinian, Diego, right? And I always used to think, fuck me, if we was just six years younger, we'd have been down there in the Falklands and I've been trying to kill you and yet you're my best mate. It's just, just insane. Dave, hold that. Let's hold this moment a sec. Yes. Sorry, Dave, I was just telling you my experience with my Argentinian mate, wasn't I? Yeah. Diego, just such a reality, isn't it, of killing people that really you'd be mates with in a pub? Yeah. I think the thing is, is that, you know, I've never ever, well, one, I had one incident which was unfortunate where the daughter of somebody who lost his life gave me a bad time. But if you think over the last six years, I've been over there getting for 12 to 14 months I've spent in BA. Everyone else are just, you know, I'm like part of the furniture over there. You know, they all take the mic and say, you know, when are you moving over here? You know, I go to people's houses for Sunday lunch. It's like, you know, I'm, you know, with certainly with many veterans, I'm, I've never felt anything but a great deal of mutual respect and love. And I think when you meet a Argentinian veteran for the first time in relation to having seen the play afterwards, all I want from you is an acknowledgement that they did their best. It doesn't matter whether they were conscript, whether matter of the regulars, they just want that acknowledgement from another veteran that you respect them and they did their best. You know, and that to me is, is, you know, it doesn't matter what the politicians say, it doesn't matter, you know, all the Saber-Ratlin. I have no control over that. But, you know, I've never had a situation where I've felt uncomfortable. I've had Argentinian veterans cry in my arms after the play, you know, that is more powerful and more important than some politician going off to be perfectly honest. Because, you know, and if you look at meeting the enemy, I mean, it's been going on for hundreds of years, you know, in thousands of years where past combatants with me, you know, and it happened after the First World War in the 1930s. So it's nothing new, you know, in relation to, dare I say, the more traditional combat sort of situation. And I think when we talk about, you know, other areas which are not so clearly defined, there might be more difficult to, you know, with veterans meeting current enemy, if you understand what I'm saying, I fully understand that, you know, and I wouldn't want to meet anyone from the Taliban to be perfectly honest, you know. But I think in more traditional, whatever traditional is, of course, there is a long history of meeting that combatant. So I don't, you know, the politics can, you know, I have no control over that. So I don't engage with it because I sometimes think it's a waste of energy. You need to be looking at what you can do in a positive way. Have you read Two Sides of Hell by Vincent Bramley? No, I haven't. Oh my gosh, he really, I think he interviewed six Argentinian veterans and the story that comes out is just beyond belief what they went through. Yeah, I mean, some of them were having to abscond from their mountains in the nighttime because they're up there freezing, starving. Their officers were back in Stanley, eating all the, you know, eating all the good rations. And they were having to sneak back to Stanley in the nighttime to go through the rubbish bins to survive because they were, you know, they were starving up there. That's the beauty of the play. What minefield does, it doesn't, it's not, you know, the play minefield, I mean, for people listening to this, minefield has been going on for six years now. We've done 190 shows. None of us are actors. We're basically three Argentinian veterans and three British veterans who fought 40 years ago, simple. And what we do is we tell our story before, during and after the war. So basically, and we are good, we're not actors, we're just very, very good storytellers. But we obviously do everything to help the other person's story. So we will be big part actors in another person's story. And it uses multimedia music, film from the past. We film each other one stage and it's projected onto a big screen. I dress up as Thatcher, then get the kit off to the sound of Don't You Want Me Baby. So it's got everything in it. And actually the first part of the play is really funny because the lines that you say are actually quite funny, but you don't realise until you're in front of an audience. And the stories from the Argentinian side, which they tell to their people and around the world are shocking. And they cover the same things like a food, et cetera, et cetera. So from that perspective, you know, Mindfield does a very good job at telling the truth. We don't hold back in relation to how war impacts on us. And I think the play for me is not about the war. It's actually about what war does to young men and when they become old men. I talk about, you know, some of my mental health difficulties and Marcelo, who is also diagnosed with PTSD from an Argentine specific talks about his. And we do this, you know, psychology scene where I'm his psychologist and he is my client. But then that scene gets turned around. He becomes my pseudo psychologist by asking questions about my experience. It's very, very clever. So, yeah, I think in relation to, you know, you can only do what you do. You know, and I think I use that in most aspects of my life. You know, a lot of things I have no control over. That doesn't mean I can't challenge them. And certainly with my academic work, you know, challenging the current research, popular culture and medicalization of veteran narrative, you know, to be fair, they do produce the same stuff in a different form, but it doesn't actually, in my opinion, make a material difference to veterans and families lives as they go on, you know, through life. And that's my passion. I'm lucky enough to get paid to do that at the moment. But that sort of work doesn't stop when I finish a contract with the university. I still do it, you know, for my soul, so to speak. What's the name of the play, Dave? Did you mention it? Yeah, the place called Mindfield, Campo Monado in Spanish. You know, there's a lot of stuff on the web, you know, press reports. There's on Lola Arias. That's Lola A-I-A-S on the website. There's a short eight minute introduction to the play, you know, just gives you a snapshot of what the play offers. And there is a studio version we recorded, the last song, the last song. It's called The Wall Song. Very, very challenging lyrics done in a great rock style. There's a copy of that on my YouTube channel, which I can obviously send the link, links once we've done this. People are interested in listening to the last song. I mean, what the play does, you know, very simply, like any good story, it takes the audience by the hand and guides them through your life story. But the difference is when we come to do the last song, which is, have you ever been to war? It's one of the lyrics in there. You know, have you ever seen a man on fire? You know, would you send your sons and daughters to war? Would you? Would you? Would you? You know, it's a really angry punky song. It's great to play. I get to do a really good improvised guitar solo in the middle of that. And it's very clever because what that does is then separates us from the audience very, very harshly while saying, you don't know what it's like, you know, and very, very, very clever. I mean, we've done 190 shows, we've been around the world, and we're very, very lucky to be involved in it. I'm very proud of what we've achieved as non-ackers. We did 20 shows in Argentina. We did the first seven shows. Up to the April of 2nd, which is their remembrance. So that was a huge show for the Argentines, you know. And then they put the tickets on sale for the rest of the shows, and they were sold out within three hours, you know. We're playing to 1,200 people over there, which is which actors would give their right arm for, you know. That's not why we do it. You know, it's about the importance of the story and the importance of seeing reconciliation in front of you and challenging a lot of, you know, a lot of stereotypical stuff about, you know, war veterans. We're just blokes. We're just blokes who fought against each other. And we're the best friends now, you know. David, it's obviously a memorable time for a lot of people. The 40th anniversary. What can we say here for people that might be struggling with this? What's our message to them? Well, I mean, for me, I don't like to tell people what to do. I mean, I'm quite harsh in a way in relation to people who've got clearly problems is because the first thing you need to do is take some responsibility for your own mental health. And I know that's hard. I know that's hard. And that's a risk. So when veterans come and see me as a psychologist, that's a risk for them. And the risk is that they have a fear of being judged by me because I'm a bootneck and they might be army and they might be bootneck, you know, I've got a couple of bootnecks I'm seeing at the moment. Yeah. Now, one, sorry, one bootneck and one army. Yeah. Both from Afghanistan. So in some ways there's a risk in exposing that you're struggling to another bootneck. Let's look at it from a bootneck to bootneck perspective because there is a fear of being judged. There's a fear of not being heard. But you have to take that risk. And I know that's tough for lots of people. I know that's tough for lots of people, but it starts there for me, you know, it starts in and then look at, you know, and I mean, has it changed much? I don't, I don't see it change much from my thoughtless generation to the younger generation and asking for help. I don't see a lot of difference in, you know, the fact that I see a broad brush selection of people from Northern Ireland right through to Afghanistan, you know, and I don't advertise. You know, a lot of my work is word of mouth, which I prefer, you know, but it always is. And I get, if I had 10 pound for every person who said to me, my mate needs out, I wouldn't be driving around 300 quids worth of old banger, would I? You know, but it is about taking that risk, you know, finding some resources to take that risk and reaching out to someone who is recommended by another person. And that doesn't necessarily have to be a veteran, psychologist, stroke, mentor, stroke, oppo, stroke, whatever you want to call it. It can be a civilian who knows their stuff. You know, my best therapist. I was diagnosed in 95 PTSD, depression, anxiety, social isolation disorder, you know, and I've had my struggles, but the best therapist I saw was a 70 year old wise, wise, wise old lady. She was amazing. And she put me on the road to trying to accept that, you know, my nightmares, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, one of the main reasons I thought I was being, didn't deserve any help, I suppose, for one of expressionists, because I wasn't a gravel buddy. I wasn't a gravel buddy. Why should I be asking for help? Why should I be making, you know, making such a fuss? You know, but it was for me, except in that I have sleep this night. So I do get incredibly emotional at times. I, you know, and the other thing is I never grieved the loss of my friends, you know, until I went back down to Falklands and had to symbolically say goodbye to him on the edge of St. Carlos water before I could move on with that, you know. And then I acknowledged the fact what a great friend he was. And that makes me sad, you know, I mean, it's still makes me sad, you know, you young man. And I'm alive now. I'm doing things which he can't do, but that goes for anyone who loses a life in war. Do you think he's bothered about that though, Dave? I'm sorry to be so blunt, but what would he want for you? Would he not? Well, I know it. I mean, I don't think it's about him being bothered because if you, you know, depending on your religious persuasion for me, what's important is what I do here and not what happens afterwards. You know, I have no control over that because I'll be dead and I'll be dead and I won't know I'm dead because I'm dead because my brain's not working. Really, really simple, you know, what happens after that is just, you know, is whatever is what I do now. So I don't think you can judge, you know, and no disrespect to, you know, people of a spiritual persuasion. I can't judge what he would think now because he can't. He can't. But what matters is how his friends, who knew him, see what I might do in his name or what I might do in, you know, in other veterans' names who've lost their lives, you know, young men. I mean, to me, that's what's important. And that means, which I haven't done yet, as an example, I'm going to the memorial service at RNS Yorkeleton, you know, I wasn't there in the Falklands War, but I felt that I wanted to go because, you know, as soon as memory has meant, you know, and the other people who died in the Falklands War, you know, and I'm writing the piece about being a 20-year-old mate. I'm not writing about his military, you know, for inclusion on that day, you know, and I haven't read it yet because it'd be quite hard to write. But his brother's going to be there. I've never met his brother, Peter. I'm going to meet Doc's brother for the first time in four years. So what's important is, you know, not how Peter sees me, but what I do in, you know, remembering Doc as a great friend, you know, and Doc has no say in that, you know, unless you think he's in heaven, you know. I just want to make the point that you're doing what you would have wanted you to do, mate, is get on, live your life. Of course. Do good for people when you're clearly doing that, you know. You know, I, you know, and I mean, I did a Masters and I wrote about, how's my journey from war marine to council enabled me to ultimately accept my experience of war. There was no answers to that, but it was an autobiographical reflection on where I was at that moment in time in my life in 2000. And then I paid to do a doctorate because, you know, very simply, I sat on a train coming back from Norwich on my Masters and I used to write a lot, you know, and I wrote, actually, now in a society asked me as a veteran, brackets, veteran's family, what they, what we want from society. It's all reactive. And it still is. It's reactive. It's reactive. It's not building the foundations of something that's really, really proactive in relation to support and veterans, you know. And I'm not talking about the mad, bad and sad. And I think that they are, they are supported as best as possible. And it's good or bad or indifferent. And I'm not on about, you know, the heroic archetype that gets pushed out time and time again. You know, I'm talking about the people who sit in the middle who do okay, but sometimes at some point in their life, the deck of cards comes falling down and they won't be diagnosed. But, you know, and that's about, for me, you know, based on the research I've done, that's about, you know, transition and a lack of preparation for the nuances of civilian history. We are culturally different to, to, to civilians. You know, full stop, end of story. I can, I can give you a lecture on culture and frame any culture. And then I could, you know, around the world, then I could put veteran in it and families. And we will be the same as coming from a different culture. So where we are. And bootnick veteran is different again. Of course. And then within that, you have your subcultures, you know, I mean, so I did, I did a doctorate because I needed a voice and I feel the veterans need a voice and challenges the status quo. So when I did my doctorate, I did a film about going back to the Falklands on the 25th anniversary autobiographical, very, very honest, very, very, didn't hold back. Everything I felt I even noted down, I spoke into a camber, I spoke in a dictophone full together. And then I had to obviously do the academic bit, which arguing why it's important in this knowledge. And it's never been done before. And it was hard. Was it therapeutic to a degree? But by that time, I, I was coming to terms with some of the nuances of, of having a mental health disability. And during that time, I had a huge, my deck of cards came tumbling down for an employment issue where I was stereotyped by Cornwall County Council. I know now so they could get rid of me and save money. And when I'm in it, I didn't realize that. I did a brilliant job in the school. You know, no idea. It was in my employment tribunal. I had letters from parents saying, well, Dave, you know, Johnny wouldn't have made it past into college or into the Navy, you know, but it didn't count for anything, you know, and that I, you know, I did have a breakdown. I looking back, I didn't have a breakdown then because I wouldn't admit I was on the breakdown. I ended up in combat stress and did the weeks assessment. They told me that I have to wait months. I thought I can't wait months to get my, you know, get myself sorted out. And from there, I found a good therapist again. And, you know, reflected on it, had to go through a process of being pretty depressed, not working, blah, blah, blah. You know, through that, I needed to find some focus in my life. My focus has been in getting my doctorate, greenberry of my mind and then working on projects which I see making material difference to veterans and actually challenge current thinking within the academic world. There's not, you know, I can spell facts and figures here, you know, as an example, there's 20,000 plus papers written about PTSD and treatment. If you equate that to the economics of doing research, that's a lot of money. There's a handful about families. So, you know, if you look at popular culture, we are framed out of mad bad and sad. We ain't framed in a film like being Mr. Normal trying to do the best or Mrs. Normal trying to do the best they can despite their experiences. And that's where the stories are for me. You know, people that go outside do really, really well. But sometimes, you know, when the pack of cards comes tumbling down when they may be done then and there might be relationship problems, you know, that's when we need individualized support for veterans. And, you know, I mean, so that's my sort of journey. You know, I mean, it took me seven years to get my first job. I was banging on doors, but I just stood on my soap bucket at conferences. I challenged the state's quo. I was a, excuse me, I was an advisor for Lord Ash Cross Report. You know, that was by just sitting down with them and saying, this is what's wrong. This is what's wrong, you know. And them actually listening and being included, a lot of my stuff is included in Lord Ash Cross Report that he did on veterans, you know, and just banging on doors and speaking at conferences. You know, all at my cost and knowing that one day I would get, I would meet someone and who I work with now, she's absolutely fantastic. You know, and getting on projects which I feel make a difference. I mean, I've worked on two. One was called the Military Afterlife Project where I simply went in and said to veterans, male, female, REF, booty, army, navy, tell me about your life in Sioux Street. That was my research question. And we've got the most amazing data. We've now got themes which are common across these 50 people. That was done on the shoestring. I was working a day and a half week. And we've got over half a million words of narrative on a shoestring budget. So it can be done. It can be done. But it's very difficult to get funding. It's very difficult. And the project I'm on at the moment is very simply looking at small charities, turn to starboard, veterans in communities which is in Altsingham up north, and Waterloo Uncovered. And just looking at them, putting a number of them on the Microsoft and looking at the veterans experience, which is through an interviewing process. Getting the veterans within the charities to represent the charity and their experiences of the charity within the film. To do a case study, to say this is your health check for the charities. And then from that, a couple of official papers, one for government and one for the charity sector, were reviewed. I mean, we all know that a veteran's charity sat by a veteran, run by veterans with a lot of veterans, not all veterans, a lot of veterans working in, there's a connection straight away. I mean, that's not rocket science. But it's getting down to nitty gritty, what is it about these charities that work so well? So I'm involved in that because there's a huge project in relation to the potential outcomes from that. So that's what I do. And that's what I will continue to do. My wife's retired, she says, when you're retiring, I said, I'm not, if I'm working, like a busman's holiday. So that's, I can't remember what the original question was, but that's sort of what I focus on now. I'm just concerned with veterans out there that might be in a bad way. Well, I suppose it, but you... Can I tell you a little story, Dave? Yeah. I'm not telling you, although I am telling you. I just want it for our friends out there that... And I hope this helps. But when we was in Northern Ireland, I remember I was on the gate at a camp one day, right? I was on the bottom gate, opening the gate. I think it was Simo resting piece that was manning the sangha above. And the patrol going out, split into two parts. One part went out the top gate, so I let them out. The other patrol went out the bottom gate. And within minutes, all you could do was just gunfire, just down the street. I remember looking at Simo going, oh, fuck, right? And that's when we lost Adam Gilbert resting piece. And I learned a big lesson from that, because there was a corporal, a very experienced corporal with Lima Company. I won't say his name, because he might not want to be mentioned on a podcast. But if I say a name H, I think people will know who I'm talking about. He got shot in the Falklands also. And H was trying to save Gilly's life. And he just looked up and went, end X, right? The point I'm getting to, Dave, is like, if I'd got involved in all of that, fuck me. I don't think I'd be here. I don't think I'd be here. I always think, what would they have wanted? And they'd be like, Chris, Dickhead, fuck off and live your life. All right, I can do that. That I can do, right? The past, for me, the past is about how that impinges on today. Yeah? Yeah. Obviously with the heightens, I mean, anniversaries, to me, are a bit of a nonsense, because there's not a year goes past, where you're not thinking in the sun, especially this time of year about the Falklands, I mean. So, you know, and I always say the 40th anniversary is for other people, not for me, because I think about the Falklands on the 39th, 38th, 16th. You know what I mean? And I think what happens is there's a heightened stuff in the media. Then, naturally, there won't be anything because, and then we have the normal stories that come out about veterans, which are generally about homelessness, alcohol, you know, the usual stuff. It comes out every year, you know, it's like you could set your calendar by, you know, and they're not bringing out anything new in relation to stuff. But I think the question always for me is how is impinging on today? So if the past impinges in any way on today, how does that impact on me moving forward and living a positive life? And for me, that's always the starting point in the work I do, whether that's informally, whether that's over a chat or maybe over beer, is how and so how are we going to change that? How are we going to accept that little part which has the potential to drag you down or is dragging you down and you can't move forward because, like you say, life is about moving forward. So, and like I said, I think if you are going to regurgitate your story to a civilian therapist, there's a huge risk there. There's a huge risk. There's lots of stuff around not understanding, not understanding. I've heard it thousands of times from veterans who say I went to see this person, you know, and they never knew what I was on about. So I walked out. I've heard that hundreds of times. So it is about finding the right person. And whilst it's a risk, I think sometimes you need to stand in front of the mirror and I mean actually do this and say to yourself in the mirror, how much value do I place on myself? Because these people might place value on their family. They probably place more value on their dog, but they need to stand in front of the mirror and say how much value do I place on myself? How am I worth taking the risk and going to see someone, whoever that someone is? And that's really tough. But for me, it's always just that in places, you know, because if they're saying they're not worth it by not at least engaging, I mean when I work with people which never, I'm going to see you for six sessions. Come along for a chat. I might not be the right person for you. Let's see where we go with this. You know, and I never say therapy. I never, you know, I will decide in a moment what's best for them. I mean, I've been out on Dartmoor with, on the top of the tour with Flask and some sarnies and chatting. Now professionally, is that therapy? Well, it may not be in the stereotypical view of a, you know, a leather couch and a couple of leather chairs. No, of course not. But did that support and help that veteran in that moment in his life? Of course it bloody did. We were, you know. As long as you didn't take him to Launston, for fuck's sake. So yeah, I, you know, it's never as simple as, you know, perhaps is made out and the narrative that's portrayed in relation to, you know, come and use op courage, pitch up, you'll see someone who's skilled in working with veterans within the NHS. It's not as simple as that. It's just not, you know, they make it sound same simple. That, you know, if it was as simple as that, all veterans would, would, would, would have a blip engage with someone for therapy and walk away and be smiling and happy and move on in life. So it's no, no, life's not, life's not simple for anyone who's had a traumatic experience or, you know, whether that's childhood, sexual abuse, rape, you know, even a car crash. It's not as simple as that. And it's made into this, this, this, this process, you know, and for me, you know, one, one size does not fit all, you know, and that's the other thing that's sadly missing from interventions within the medical model in support of veterans and families, you know. And then the, you know, I always say that, you know, we are lab rats to be propped and poked by, by academics and the medical profession, you know, and it's changing. I'm probably being really unfair, but for me, I've always felt, well, you know, one size does not fit all, you know, you could ask yourself, can you find something new in life which helps you therapeutically? And, you know, whether that's exercise, whether that's drawing, whether that's writing, whether it's focusing, you know, finding something more creative to engage with life, you know. And lots of people do it, you know, lots of people do it, you know. But the question I would, you know, if people are struggling, you need to look in the mirror and say, you know, and actually the other question they need to ask us is, what would I suggest to my best mate to do in a situation I'm in? What would I say to him? And repeat it. I mean, I'm not saying this is not something I'm using as an example. I'm actually saying people need to really, really look at themselves in the mirror and say, look, you know, what would I say to my best oppo in the Navy, the Army, the Moons, the REF, if they were telling me the situation I'm in and then you need to say, you need, this is something you do. I would say to them, you really need to find someone who's going to help you out on this. Then ask yourself the question, so how come I'm not doing it for self? Am I less worthy than my friend? Do I think less of myself than I do my best oppo? Because my best oppo would be really annoyed with me if I'm thinking less of myself than I am on my suppo. It's really, really, you know, that sounds really simple, but let's face it, there are other complex things that are going on. You know, these things, in my opinion, you know, when people do struggle, do not happen in isolation. You know, they do not happen. It's not just something that happens. Generally there's stuff bubbling underneath. If you, 99, well, a large proportion of us, when we go outside, do okay, we have a lot of experience. Like I said earlier, it's generally something else that brings the whole pack of clients tumbling down and underneath, you'll see something that's happened earlier in your life. You can extend that back to childhood as well for some people, you know. There's no doubt that that can be bubbling under, pour up, bring in, you know, et cetera, et cetera. So I always say it's not as simplistic as it's made out to be. If it was, we wouldn't have the need for up courage and up courage would be, would not be working because 99, you know, 100% of us would be doing okay and there wouldn't be, you know, the issues that arise, you know, but I'm a great believer in, you know, you've got to find that resource within yourself, that resilience to actually ask. I know it's hard, you know. Yeah, it's really easy to be glib in a podcast and say, you know, I get it. Everyone goes through their own mill. I mean, there's so many things that have helped me. For a start, forgive your fucking parents, whatever they did to you, or whatever, you've got to forgive that. You've got to think what was life like for them and you're probably going to find they had the same shit that they put on you and they were struggling and, you know, it's like when I look at my little boy, Dave, I'm not seeing a little boy or an, I'm seeing me in another body and that is a check for me with my behavior at times, you know. Like that is just you, Chris, like when you was a little boy, you know, fucking treating with some respect. But it goes the other way. It goes back up the chain. Very often we find that we've harbored a grudge against someone because they did this to us and did it. And yeah, it's not nice. No one's going to say it's nice. But when you trace their chain back, then you go, oh my God, they had that done to, ah, there's a struggling individual was right. And it's not about that hurting people is ever accepted or anything. It's about you've got to move on. So somehow you've got, you've got to get to grips with it. You've got to deal with it. Put it behind you, you know. We did a podcast the other day. Falklands veteran came back, killed himself. And then it came out that, you know, I'm not going to go into the details again, but he had horrible things done to him in his childhood. And the Falklands had triggered all that off. Exactly what I was saying. You know, I mean, I think that that, you know, it does happen. And, you know, I find more. It's something that happens in here and now, you know, it could be redundancy. It could be relationship problems. It could be, you know, as, you know, I've had situations where, you know, some army corporal was killed in Iraq. And this just didn't even know the guy, but the symbolism of loss, the symbolism of, and it just triggered all the stuff that this, this army vet I saw hadn't, hadn't dealt with, you know. And that loss went back to the fact that he was close to his granddad and he lost his granddad. And it's about, you know, and it's not wallowing in those things. It's about saying, well, how's that impacting his day? Well, it's impacted, you know, because you just feel this great sense of loss. So every ever, ever acknowledged, acknowledged in some way, you know, your granddad's part in your life and the positive things and you haven't, he'd never, never grieve the loss of his granddad. So the first thing we did is we found a way in which he could grieve the loss and then move on, you know. So, so it isn't, it isn't, you know, it's not that simple. And anyone who says it is as filling in a CBT form, you know, and then fill in another one six weeks later, I'm sorry, you know, if life was that simple, you know, there won't be a need for, there won't be a need for the amount of charities around there. But that's another narrative, isn't it, you know. Dave, on that note, I'd love to chat with you longer, but if we go on for too long, people will go, well, hang on, I've got three hours to spend on my day. No, of course not. But what, just on a final note to all our veterans out there, you know, you were taught to be in a team, right? A team is when you're struggling, you reach out to your buddies and you get fucking help, right? We ain't got time for lone wolves, you there trying to be a hero and deal with it all yourself. That's nonsense. You reach out to your mates, there's plenty of us out there with many of us have been, been, been through it. You're not the first person. You won't be the last. You've got wonderful people like Dave here and all the work that he's doing. You're not going to be judged. You're only going to be judged when, you know, you're going to end up taking your own bloody life or something and everyone goes, oh my God, what, what, and it's awful. And, you know, we've just had that happen in the Royal Marines family and I'm still fucking reeling from it because it was like the nicest guy, one of my biggest, biggest supporters of everything that I, I do. And, you know, despite my clinical outlook on live, I fucking shed a few tears for that one. I'll tell you that. But, you know, reach out. We're a team. That's it. You know, you're not a lone wolf. Dave, same goes for you. You know, if anything comes back over this pod, you get in touch with me and we'll deal with it. My phone is open to my mates 24 seven. I don't care if you call me two in the morning. In fact, I wish some people had done, you know, don't, don't keep it to yourself, fellas and fellasses, you know, that's why we're a family. Dave, we're going to put all your links below, mates. If you can send me like in a nice little paragraph, what, what, what we can put below that can help people and what can promote what, what you're doing to all our Argentinian friends out there. Has to do a go and much of sweaty to, to, to all of you. Anyway, thank you very much in time. That's great. You're welcome, Royal. Yeah. Let's chat again soon. Yeah, all of us. Cheers.