 So good morning everybody and welcome. Welcome to this discussion on building a circular and climate neutral economy and to hear from a range of very interesting stakeholders and policymakers on their reaction and thinking about the November circular economy package. My name is Martin Porter. I'm executive chair of CISL in Brussels and it's my pleasure to moderate this discussion and guide us through the next hour and a half, which I hope you will all find extremely interesting, not least because we have an excellent lineup of speakers and participants and indeed a very wide range of people participating in the audience. If we can go to the next slide and I will briefly run through the agenda, you can see from this that we have an excellent lineup of speakers from all of the major EU institutions and then obviously also from different businesses and other stakeholder perspectives. So I hope that we will both cover all of the relevant and most personal and interesting dimensions of this discussion and my job will also be to ensure that where we have questions from yourselves that we're able to put those to some of the participants and with my colleagues I will do my best to make sure that through the chat any questions that come up we try and answer those and where we can't obviously we will do our best to ensure we can come back to you and give you responses after the discussion. So with that my thanks obviously to all of the speakers and participants for joining and just by way of brief context and background let me just refresh our minds on the the topic but also give you a little bit of background on ourselves and the organisation that we are. So CLG Europe's materials and products taskforce was launched in 2021 as you can see COP26 and brings together a leading group of businesses from a range of business sectors all of whom are committed to driving forward this agenda and giving input and experience to policymakers and others on how best to do that. They are obviously committed to doing this on a Europe-wide basis and are collaborating with the support of CRSL and indeed in the context also of the corporate leaders group Europe the wider group of companies who are committed to doing as much as they can on the climate agenda in a similar way. So this taskforce has been active now since 2021 and has been working to support this agenda and has produced a number of reports and materials in advance of key events notably obviously at the last COP and in the last year has produced reports such as that on the digital product passport materials which hopefully you have either seen already or which we can provide you afterwards. The aim of this group is obviously to engage with policymakers and this is an event which brings some of them together with those policymakers and other stakeholders as you see from the agenda and to have a public discussion about the proposals that are on the table already and to see how best to put them into practice. So with that as introduction I'm delighted to say that we have as a first piece of our meeting today a word video presentation from Commissioner Sinkavikius, apologies for my pronunciation and I would like to ask my colleagues if we can play that before we get into our discussion. So hopefully the technology will now enable us to see that video. Good morning everyone and let me start by thanking you for your strong interest in and your support for our circular economy policy. From the very beginning of this Monday the Commission proposes strategies or legislation but we rely on the stakeholders to bring about real change on the ground. So even if I could not make it physically to your event today I'm glad I can at least send you this message and I know my colleagues will listen carefully to the issues and questions you will raise today and report back. 2022 was a milestone year for circular economy it began in the spring with the first package centered around eco design a broad ambitious package refinking the concept of eco design and expanding the rules to cover a far wider range of products and value chains. The second package in November took a different approach focusing very closely on one value chain in particular the EU rules on packaging and packaging waste. It also clarified the policy framework for biobased biodegradable and compostable plastics and included a proposal on carbon removal certification. You have asked for more details on the package from November well I can say that it's a package that answers a need and although recycling rates have continued to raise for the past 10 years the waste we create has grown even faster. So if the current trends continue plastic waste generation will raise by 46 percent by 2030 and 86 percent by 2040 we need to turn this around and that's the aim of our most recent initiative it provides a strong harmonized and operational legal framework for packaging while also making the sector more efficient the new regulation is designed to speed the transition from the linear take make dispose economic model towards a more circular economy it's built around three main blocks new targets for packaging waste reduction and reuse sustainability requirements for economic operators with minimum targets for recycled material and a big push to stimulate the uptake of recycled material that should aid investment in the circular plastics economy helping the recovery and recycling of plastic packaging waste the environmental benefit should be significant and it should bring us a few more steps closer towards climate neutrality the second part of that November package takes a closer look at the bioplastics framework we see these products more and more proposed as alternatives to conventional plastic but the situation is more complex than it looks the framework we propose explains this complexity and sets out approaches to ensure overall outcomes that are positive for the environment we do that in three ways we start by clarifying the terminology if you want to claim a material is for instance biodegradable or compostable you have to explain how today those claims and labels are often misleading and we want to help consumers make choices they understand secondly we want to ensure sustainable sourcing there is no point in producing biobased plastics unless the conditions of production are nature friendly and pollution free and then thirdly we need to ensure appropriate use biodegradable and compostable plastics should only be used in specific applications according to the principles of reduction reuse and recycling above all our aim is to ensure genuine benefits for the environment that way we offer certainty to research innovation and sustainable investment ladies and gentlemen circular economy is a central commitment of the european green deal and there is plenty more work to do right now we are focused on delivering the remaining measures from the 2020 circular economy action plan the green claims initiatives has been much in the news and in the fight against green washing it should prove a powerful tool we are fine tuning the initiative with a view to ensuring an ambitious and effective proposal the plan is for adoption at the end of march and i look forward discussing that with you as well thank you again for this invitation and i wish you fruitful discussions very good so thank you very much indeed commissioner i think that sets the scene extremely well for our discussion here today and obviously enables us to think about all of the issues that were mentioned and we can immediately now i think look at the follow-up work and the discussions that are necessary as the commissioner indicated with three people who are actually handling this on a day-to-day basis at the very heart of each of the main EU institutions so i'm very happy that i have with me now i hope we'll soon see them on video the head of unit dealing with waste and resources in the european commission i hope that we will also see serpa pedicainen or at least hear from her i understand that she may not have the video serpa also welcome to you as well as matia and marta marta lima basto from the ministry of economic and maritime affairs in portugal so marta welcome to you it's great to have you all here with us and indeed from each as i said of the three main institutions you have a different perspective on this and we will begin by hearing from matia who is working very closely obviously with the commissioner in delivering on that agenda so um matia he's already said a number of things about your your work and your agenda um but please follow up and and give us more details and set out what you're now working on and looking for indeed from uh the the stakeholders who are involved in this discussion here with you today so the floor is yours yeah good morning everybody and thank you very much for the invitation indeed i mean we are working at the moment on many legislation and and all this legislation around the circular economy and the contribution indeed that circular economy can also give to climate change because indeed one of the the ways to decarbonize is actually to make sure that products are not done in a linear way but rather in a circular way because that's is i mean when you look at then a co2 emissions there are clear benefits as you know that type of logic of uh designing circular products started with the batteries regulation which was the the first time that the commission has actually regulated the entire life cycle of a product of a very important product that indeed if it's not circular may i mean we're talking about a lot of the use of batteries in order to decarbonize but indeed if they're not designing a circular way and then you may really have negative impacts on the production stage of the battery so that's the reason why the commission has set out a number of sustainability requirements by the way also carbon threshold the batteries regulation and that was the first one done in december 2020 which now after two years of intense negotiation has come to an agreement by the co-legislator and they should be published in the coming months at the latest before december break i mean now it's a matter of correcting the text and then after that the commission has come up as you know with the first circular economy package and which was in particular about the sustainable product regulation so really how we design products in a sustainable way by the way you were mentioned in martin that you have done work on the digital product passport as you know this is also one of the components both of the batteries regulation and of the of the sustainable product regulation you have a batteries passport foreseen in the batteries regulation and the product passport foreseen in the sustainable product regulation which is a transformation of the old ego design legislation into a type of legislation which takes into account not only energy efficiency but the full sustainability of a product and more recently indeed which was i think is the main topic of today's discussion we came out with the second circular economy package where we are focused on on packaging packaging waste and indeed this has been a really a transformative approach because indeed not only because again we have by the way what you have noticed probably start to constantly we have reviewed where they were existing directive and transform them into regulation is a very important point because that means that when we're talking about sustainability requirements they will apply directly to economic operators so that is the is the big change also with this approach of regulation and indeed it will be really i mean important that companies then comply with this sustainability requirements but i think in packaging we have taken even an additional step which was and i think the commission referred to that is that for the first time we have regulated what are called the two higher level of the waste leadership so the prevention of waste and or from packaging and also the reuse so as you have seen we have set out for the first time a mandatory reuse targets for certain sectors but that is also a big novelty compared to to really the approach until now and of course then we have also mandated the important things like recyclability of packaging by 2030 so there will be a system by which if if the packaging is does not comply with a certain performance class then we'll be out of the market in 2030 so that's at the moment just to give you an idea one third of the packaging is is considered i mean according to different studies is considered to be designed in a way which cannot be recycled at the end of the process so with that measure we will fix that problem and also then there is a problem of non-performance of a specific one sector which is the plastic sector in terms of packaging in the sense that recycling rates are very low so in order to boost the recycling rates only for plastic packaging the commission has put forward the mandatory recycle content it's an increased level but indeed and then as you have seen we have divided in two types of packaging the packaging which is in contact with food or sensitive in general and the packaging of course which is non-sensitive and of course for the non-sensitive packaging you can add much higher targets in terms of recycle content and and and also what is important maybe as a final point we have a lot of measures about labeling because indeed also labels can and again i mean if we want to improve the recycling operation reuse operation you need the labels which can guide the consumers so there will be at least three sort of labels one on sorting instructions one on reuse and one on recycle content so that they will allow and they will guide the consumers for example when you sort at home the idea is that you will have the same p-programs in the in the receptables so in your bin or box and the same p-program in the packaging so you will not make any mistakes and because as you know especially for complex packaging sometimes you wonder yourself as a consumer which bin should i put it so that will increase both the collection rate and the purity level because there is also an issue of purity of contamination so that's again we need to higher recycling rates higher recycling rates means less primary raw materials and that means less CO2 impacts by the way the last point i wanted to make if you look at our impact assessment especially on recycle content for plastics as you know plastic is made out of petrol so we have estimated that with our targets on recycle content for plastics how much imports of fuel can be of petrol can be avoided so that's not only you have a CO2 positive impacts but also the current context of energy dependency and diversification of sources and more strategic autonomy will also bring that element in relation to the imports of oil which are needed for the production of primary plastics i mean there is many other things in the proposal it's a very big one but i think i don't want to take it too long but of course if there are any questions or reactions then i'm happy to take it wonderful thank you very much Matteo well your last point let me sort of follow up and reiterate that for those of you who are in our audience please feel free to use the chat function in order to put questions and we will do our best to collate those and put them to Matteo, to Marta, to Sirpa at the end of their initial contributions and as i said if we don't get a chance to do that now we'll do it afterwards as best we can there's a huge amount that we can get into there Matteo and i guess the best way of starting that is to maybe turn to Sirpa and to see what her initial reaction and maybe what she anticipates and is the reaction of the european parliament more broadly on this agenda so Sirpa welcome i hope you can hear me and it's always a pleasure to have you with us so if you can hear me the floor is now yours thank you you can't welcome and i hope that you can hear me as well already always a pleasure to work with you Martin and very happy to be here in this session okay about these reactions i think that there's a lot of good and actually this kind of a paradigm changing in this proposed regulation one is of course this hierarchy that was first time put in place in in batteries as we heard from Matteo but also now it is extended it's the extended producer liability that puts the reuse ability at the first place and of course this is something that has raised worries and reactions so already so the parliament needs to be very tough on this then when it comes to choose when to reuse and whether there should be a compulsory recycled content or not what i'm actually looking forward very much and that is under the environment dg environment also is the indicator settings and that would need to be the whole life cycle analysis so that we can actually see where and how the reuse can be extended how to prefer certain materials plastics are good in some places wood in some places then maybe even glass as a container if you can create a longer term and metals longer term uses but to really get the sort of a sort of materials right this is what is needed and hopefully this kind of a beth lca you could be clear and there should be could be fortified in the parliament then what i'm lacking here and what i'm missing is the whole target and i this is not true to blame the commissioner because i know how hard this discussion is both in the parliament and not to talk about the council and the commission itself but what we really would need to have is this kind of a complete indicator setting set plus then not only indicative but the science-based targets are really a reduction of the resources here the resources as we all know we are talking about 10 goals in room and the resources and what i'm very afraid of is backing other sectors is that we take the sidetracks and end up in insubstitutes that are better than but not effective and actually not helpful of getting to higher targets but preventing on on that and i could have a long list of examples both in backing and in other areas what that can mean but to avoid this i think that this ambition that i should be clearly stated out and it should be binding then about the whole measuring system is still as i mentioned lacking behind that that has of course the no the connections with other regulations like taxonomy sustainable finance in general about about our budgets and about them of course your stuff and how we measure the resources efficiency now members then about measuring and this is quite clearly in the best framework directive but also here i think that we clearly should have all points of measurements to really get the information about how effective the system is and that was very unfortunate that the last time when we had the main framework directive in the pilot we were not able to do it first you would need to of course measure the collected materials then second point you should measure the amount that goes to reuse and then on the other hand on recycling facilities then you would need to get the measurement what comes out of the recycling facilities and there as i've learned there's quite a lot of loss nowadays so the actually recycling processes are not effective and we should go there on the root causes and quite often that these materials and the collection systems that cause the problems and the fourth point should be then actually what is on real use when after the material is reprocessed for example in finnish case we do collect plastics pretty well we do reprocess it pretty well but actually what gets out only about harm is used and the rest is incinerated and we actually could tolerate that kind of a lapse and about the effective reuse of the plastics so that means in real packing is close to four percent in europe at the moment not to be on the fifth then to pick up a couple of words of warning also what i hope that both the base regulation and here could be clarified is the chemical recycling it should be last result and i'm very happy that the re reuse is preferred and mechanical recycling thereafter but as we know there's really ineffective close to fossil fuel industry basically turning turning the majority of the material to be a fuel or to be incinerated and these should not be categorized though understood as chemical recycling it should be something that we yet does not exist but we know that the uh uh the systems are the pipeline already so that means that the the regain of the molecules the plastic molecules are above 70 so it is really effective and really clean and reusable and that then would sort of a set this uh bar and the states right for the for the huge then again word of warning about bio bio materials are not always better and this is incidentally use something i sort of arrest my case because without this kind of a proper path lca one can't tell is it better to have single use plastics or reusable metal forks and knives in fast food systems or wooden uh utilities utilities on uh on use and there i'm afraid we are just sort of lobbying a bit like in buildings to prefer one or the other route to over the others and that might not always be the case if you cut the forest in china to produce forks and knives no one basically uses because they are packed on the back of three and quite often you need only fork or you need only spoon spoon if that is a reasonable use of the resources so there's a lot of uh stuff left and i'm on detail to look at the clothes to conclude i'm just wishing and hoping that the commission could still come up with the base more clear and then the above mentioned targets and the measurement and the science-based approach on on here to to to give the regulation as as a last remaining gift to the parliament out of this very good work this commission has been doing thank you thank you super very much i think that's a great set of points that you raise and obviously i hope i'll come back to matthew certainly uh with some of those ranging from the importance of measurement and metrics which goes to the heart of this obviously alignment with other policies and regulation some specific points for example about chemical recycling which we might turn to and the link of the end maybe to even broader issues like trade and i guess even industry strategy and plans given what is going to be published today by the european commission indeed with that and i don't want to pre-empt obviously what marta is going to say marta welcome and look forward to hearing what your perspective is on this obviously working at a national level but in the context of the european union as a whole and the council work that you're engaged in so look forward to hearing from you and then we'll come back to some questions i've got some online as well which i'll turn to but marta over to you the floor is yours thank you martin let me start by greeting the other participants in this event and thanking the clg europe task force on climate neutral and circular materials and products for hosting the event and inviting the directorate general for economic activities from portugal for the sake of clarity let me tell you that this directorate general is a public organization within the ministry of economy and maritime affairs and we are involved among many other competencies in the formulation of public policies within the framework of circular economy particularly with regard to waste management and extended producer responsibility but we do this obviously in coordination with the the ministry of environment who has the lead of many of these negotiations within the european council but we all have in mind that circular economy is an approach that aims to keep resources in a productive circuit for longer and consequently including measures and actions that extend the lifetime of materials to the limit if possible and enhancing their value the transition it's not easy from a linear economic to a circular model it involves more than simply recycling we do it as much as possible but there are other areas where we can connect on the eco design of products including the phasing out and the elimination of hazardous substances and we are negotiating that in the european council as it was already said by the commission we have strategies to promote reuse re-manufacturing and repair of products restrictions on the single use of products combating premature obsolescence and limiting the destruction of unsold durable goods also strategies that stimulate new consumption patterns and we cannot uh uh left out the empowering consumers by providing reliable information to enable them to make the smart choice or the sustainable choice when each and every one of us is shopping so um this second european circular economy action plan and the the proposals that are within it focus actions on those resource intensive sectors where the potential for circularity is higher without any doubt both the packaging and plastic sectors are two of these uh such cases and i'll be focusing on the packaging and packaging uh waste uh we are obviously committed to contribute for the minimization of unnecessary packaging on the market to ensure that consumers can opt for usable packaging as well as to work on levels with clear information to support effective recycling uh the the key actions that are foreseen in this proposal are focused on preventing packaging waste increasing reuse refilling and making all packaging recyclable the proposal in itself uh addresses three major constraints identified already in the impact assessments but the increase in the generation of packaging waste it's entwited by new consumption habits we've heard it here before that as much as we recycle the consumption it it's much higher so it's not enough then barriers to use to reuse and recycling mainly due to the non-use of eco design rules when conceiving the packaging and low quality of secondary raw materials mainly plastic materials due to the need to for greater investment in technology the measures advocated in this proposal are expected to contribute to a more efficient use of raw materials and thereby to promote the competitiveness and resilience of enterprises while also enabling citizens to reduce consumption costs which sometimes is debatable by preferring reusable over single use packaging which results in an extension on packaging lifetime in a prevention and circular perspective the proposal includes besides some measures and targets also ambitious requirements with a view to the elimination of overpackaging improve recyclability minimize the complexity of a packaging composition increase incorporation of secondary raw materials in phase out of hazardous substances to promote reuse all this without compromising the food safety and quality of standards we in Portugal our collective system that is licensed for the management of packaging waste already includes some of the concerns addressed by the proposal in particular by means of using a eco modulation of financial benefits that rewards or penalizes fillers or pickers depending on whether or not they implement business strategies to prevent the generation of packaging waste and facilitate recycling at the end of its life cycle we've had a study on reuse carried out in 2022 by three Portuguese associations in the mineral water beer and non-halcoholic drinking sectors it was supposed to be to study a self-regulation self-regulation model for this but as the commission was coming up with this proposal the model waited for the targets that are going to be set at the end of this negotiation but for example in the water sub-sector the amount of usable packaging placed on the market is relatively low to not say very low and is essentially limited to the hotels restaurants and catering sectors also in the juices and soft drinks it's even lower all reusable packaging is also distributed through these these channels and the beer and cider sub-sector yes has the highest supply of reusable packaging with 45 percent in equivalent consumption units the case of natural and spring waters is one of those that raises some concerns and the reuse of packaging is quite a challenge even that the natural and spring water filling units have to be located very close to the respective collection points and it's not easy to do that since transport in bulk of these waters is not allowed and jeopardizes its properties and the same happens with some wines especially those in recognized regions so some of the targets in this proposal are a challenge and are not yet clear how we're going to do it and we have some difficulty in assessing the scope for the water and wines covered for it for example nevertheless and more from the perspective of reuse and the targets for 2030 and 2040 will certainly require investment from the companies the implementation and operation of a packaging reuse system implies several changes in the facilities of the producers and the logistics and transport networks carrying out these changes is time-consuming it's expensive and although we are we are all committed to the to the targets we also have to think of the impact it has on on companies the involvement of the sales channels with increased circulation of reusable packaging it will be necessary to allocate space at points of sale and distributors for storage of used packaging and space allocation is not always abundant as we know it's one of the main barriers to the rise of reusable packaging and has a cost in itself at the end of the value chain these costs will be passed on to the consumer and it's essential to ensure that these investments are cost efficient and proportionate proportionate to the environmental contribution and finally to mention consumer involvement consumer participation is also one of the critical success factors for all these policies we while the commission is proposing to harmonize the marking and labeling of packaging inlining what the containers for selective disposal and we'll see how this works we've had for the last year's major campaigns to educate the consumer to separate everything the glass from the paper from the plastic to put them in certain containers it's yellow or it's blue or it's green it depends on the member state yes harmonize would be good but it takes another extra effort to re-educate the consumer to do it so these are some of the concerns we have I hope it has been useful and thank you for listening thank you very much well I mean you raise a number of topics there which I'm sure are going to be part of the council discussions and no doubt in the parliament as well maybe if it's okay Matthea I'll come back to you with some of those points and a couple of questions that we've had in the chat and then I'll let yourself Serpa and Marta address the questions together but I mean she raises some practical challenges that the businesses and others face and one of those in particular I guess is an investment challenge how do we incentivize the investment by companies in this and then the role of the consumer so there are three broad areas I guess which would be interesting for you to react to and maybe some specific questions if you can bear these in mind we've got a question of how the reuse and refill targets will work particularly with an emphasis on effective reverse logistics so that's one question we have that's from a retail perspective I think in particular secondly on chemical recycling is it being considered as an option for hard to recycle plastics and thirdly a question essentially from the hotel restaurant catering perspective the banning of single use packaging and the targets associated how are the the difficulties associated with that for that sector being considered and mitigated you don't have to answer all those questions because if if one or other review can address them that would be great but first of all Matthea maybe you react into what Marta said maybe some of what Seopra said first off and then I'll come to Seopra and Marta again yeah so indeed the Martin so thank you very much both for the I mean summing up what Marta and Mrs. Pettigar and said I mean and indeed also for the specific question which are linked by the way to the points made by the member of parliament and also by the representative of Portugal so as as you said yourself I would like to start with that this is the beginning of if I can put it like in a football game it's the beginning of a match in the sense that now you have 90 minutes to play because the commission proposal is only when the football match start and as you said that then there is the co-decision process which has already started especially in the council there has been already a number of working parties meetings and the parliament has now just appointed the the rapporter Mrs. Ries in the MV committee which is also familiar with the committee I mean both Mrs. Pettigar and was indeed the rapporter for the first park in 2018 back in 2018 so she's very familiar with our legislation but also Mrs. Ries she's familiar because she was the rapporter for the SOP directive so she knows partially I mean SOP was much smaller compared in terms of single-use packaging compared to the overall packaging proposal we have now but indeed it's also good that a number of members of parliament which are familiar with packaging are also now addressed I mean still there and and engaging in this issue and indeed I will start with the first point which is the logistics which was raised by Mrs. Pettigar and it was raised now by you in summing up the question Matthew and also understanding the chat and the economic costs as you said indeed the commission has assessed that our supporting studies have now been published on our impact assessment which take over also the reuse part and indeed that's the reason why for example as you have seen on reuse there is an exemption based on turnover number of square meters in order to at least exempt small and medium enterprises I mean you may I mean we took inspiration by the German law you may find the better exemption and I think the co-decision process is there to see if maybe it needs to be improved but indeed we're fully aware that one thing is to implement a reuse system for McDonald's just to give an example or Starbucks and other things is to implement the reuse system for the corner shop down on my road where indeed it may imply the complete redesign of the shop I mean for example for a small restaurant so that's I think the first point so we have foreseen an exemption for small and medium enterprises and then the second point indeed we have seen that the only way to reduce cost and that is very important because there's a lot of focus also Marta was focusing a lot on the targets but if you look at our proposal it's not only about the targets so there is the targets for use and there is also specifically for dining in and these things there is even a ban of single use but the I think all of that especially for the takeaway for example from the omega sector there we insisted a lot that this will also depend the success model and also delivery of the cost on having in place a what we call the reuse system so for example the commission has now foreseen the empowerment to come up and harmonize the standards and the formats of the products because indeed you can imagine and this links also to the question of mrs. pidekine and also of the chat about the life cycle assessment and indeed not only has mrs. pidekine and makes sense to do a life cycle assessment but we're even obliged under the west remote directive to in order to impose reuse that will do a life cycle assessment covering and to compare recycling with reuse and indeed if you have the imagine the beer bottles if you have like here in Belgium many different formats basically every single producer in Belgium has a different shape of bottle and a different color of course then the reverse logistic will be impossible because then you will have to basically have a return back to each producer so of course why Germany was a success model because in germany you have mainly three formats of beers and then of course what has happened is that I was visiting one beer producers in Germany and two thirds of the beer that they were reused there rewashed in order to be reused but beers of the competitors simply just with different you take out the label so that is an important point it is true that it may have especially if you don't have harmonized formats may have a very high cost and not necessarily positive environmental impacts but if you created the so-called framework condition then we believe that there may be environmental benefits and then the indeed the question which on consumer indeed that is essential because indeed I was yesterday actually the breakfast meeting is organized by the U.S. ambassador with I don't know how many members of parliament so I again understood how important is this proposal and indeed there are now as you know in the French system from 1st of January 2023 is obligatory to have reused in the in the in the RECA sector it's a national law and indeed it appears from what was shown yesterday that indeed there are interesting primary data so with some of them they show high consumption of water a shift from paper to plastics so all these things of course are not in our impact assessment because at that time we have used what we call secondary data we didn't have primary data because this is only taking place now of course now the commission and I understand there is a number of studies ongoing is ready to look into that but I also would like to stress that as you have seen for the RECA sector in particular the reuse target on the takeaway is rather a low one because indeed we understand that I mean you will need time to create that then there was a specific point on and I will come at the end of your point also Martin Cochran I would touch first at the last point on chemical recycling and so again this will have been hearing a lot that we should be more open and recognize upfront chemical recycling and there I mean my reply is that you know we cannot do it upfront because we need to set up first so we need to step the first one is to set and to agree with the co-legislator on rules on recycle content so as you know we now have targets as I explained for three different categories sensitive packaging non-sensitive and beverage bottles once there is the final proposal the commission will come up with an harmonized methodology now you measure recycle content for example in a bottle and once you know the monies methodology then of course we will also in this harmonized methodology say how you can what you can count in in your whether you can count only mechanical recycling also can be recycled of course I think it is clear I mean although we'll have to be done at the later stage that when mechanical recycling is leading back to another polymer that can be used as Mr. Spirigani will say in again in the product or in packaging of course that is it is a typical recycle operation but as you know the chemical recycling also results in in fuel in energy so that's of course that part which is full cannot be counted because it's not I mean it's wasteful energy it's not a recycling operation but all of that will have to be discussed in secondary legislation but indeed with this recycle content target and especially for flexible packaging because I didn't understand the question why was an art packaging normally chemical recycling will be even more needed for the type of plastics which currently cannot be dealt by mechanical recycling so that's a so it's a complementary tool but also the last point I'm going to make on chemical recycling we have the latest GRC study which clearly shows that when you compare mechanical recycling to chemical recycling I think even even the the producers or the industry investing in chemical recycling will recognize that indeed in terms of CO2 emission which was also the title linked to packaging of this I mean proposal or this event webinar indeed we should not forget that there is no difference in there is no comparison in the sense that in mechanical recycling is really outperforming I mean it's really the best technology but indeed it cannot work for all type of plastics so indeed you will have to look in a complementary way and the last point on consumer indeed as you said Martin as also some of the speakers said it is essential that's the reason why we're thinking about the labels also want to reassure Marta we're not thinking about at least we never thought about harmonizing colors we know that there are different colors but you even you can preserve still the different colors of the beans and the plastic bags but you can still have a pictogram which is the same everywhere in Europe which can then it will be easy for packaging companies placing their products in Europe because they will only have one pictogram to put whatever important in Italy or in you or in Ireland or in another country and the in the same one in the bean or in the bags independently of the colors so indeed it is true that there was a certain point at the political level even reference to the possibility to have an harmonized color system but this is not our final proposal the final proposal is about an harmonized the pictogram systems which are proved to be very effective and I will conclude with that about educating consumer because the Nordic countries they have done it takes called the Nordic pictogram he started in in in Denmark and then he was as moved to Sweden, Finland and Norway and he has proved that they have increased enormously the collection rates so they have the same pictograms in these four markets they didn't change the their system of the color spins but indeed by having the same pictograms and it was working even the design of the pictograms together with industry and all these things and so that's I think is an important point that I wanted to make and indeed the same applies to the label for reuse and the same applies to the label for recycle content of course consumer for us the best way to educate consumer will be via this label of course then we will also have to ensure that there are a communication campaign I think this proposal in any case needs to be a company at a certain stage about the communication campaign but indeed it's a proposal which is here I mean I can tell you that out of the proposal of the geo-environment we looked at the numbers and it was from the SUP directive that the geo-environment did not have in our own website so many clicks on the web page of this proposal I mean I think 80,000 90,000 people have downloaded that within an hour or two of the the from the publication in November and the proposal so it's clearly there is a even citizens that are interested in that so I think indeed the consumer education would play an important role. Fantastic thank you very much very some detailed and comprehensive answers which means to follow your football analogy just for this meeting we're close to the end of the first half but I'm going to allow some extra time just to ensure that we are able to hear from Sirpa and Marta again because I think they may want to just react to some of what you've said as well as offer some opinion so with your permission we'll go on just for a little bit longer before we turn to the second half first of all to Sirpa assuming you're still there I can't see you but hopefully you can hear us and then to Marta but a couple of minutes or so of reaction to that Sirpa if you'd like if not I'm going to pass straight to Marta who definitely is still here Marta you kick off and if Sirpa can hear us you'll let us know I'm sure. Okay thank you to a question of balance between the commitment we all have with the final objective of reducing waste and being more sustainable and you're bleeding by example even to to other parts of the world that need to to make an effort like we are doing it's a question of balance between these commitments these targets and the burden we impose on companies to change their strategies to adapt to new packaging to new logistics to new spaces and I'm glad to hear that the mission on the SMEs concern because as you know 99% of our companies are SMEs and it's more difficult on them than on the big companies naturally and when we try to harmonize things we have to think of the pros and cons of everything you cannot harmonize the packaging but then you cannot hamper the need for companies to innovate and to distinguish themselves sometimes through packaging or the materials they use or colors or whatever so I think it all comes down to this on the we ourselves here in Portugal have to balance what we are positioned in the council between the Ministry of Economy and the Ministry of Environment and I think it's the same in every member state we have our concerns the companies have their concerns and it all comes down to the cost that these changes impose on them and also on consumer here in Portugal the Ministry of Economy also has a consumer policy and I think that empowering consumers and information is essential for this change because it's in our hands all of us when we make the choice and sometimes we see studies that consumers are willing to pay more for a sustainable product not always true so we try to educate consumers make the smart choice thank you thank you very much Marta and I think Serpa if you're unmuted do you want to offer us some last thoughts on this before we pass to the next half yes very happily I'm sorry about the previous I forgot to unmute myself I think that this is excellent discussion firstly secondly I understand very well the Martha's point on costs but what I would like to underline on here is that we should have always in our impact assessment of legislation the cost of nonaction and we all know that if we do not now and especially the circular economy so big part of it then the costs are going to be via climate change and other factors at least 10-fold the COVID-19 costs roughly after 10 of it 15 years from now so this is just not the question whether we do do it or not but how to do it then it's just two notions and this is indeed the product passport that is a story of itself that I hope that maybe we could organize a separate session because there are various ways how to organize it concretely and the model that has been proposed by the commission is pretty open and what I'm afraid is that we might create systems that are not interoperable in the future and so we might want to choose a bit tighter view on here and last but not least and this is the competitive side at the europe's ability to kick off the chase is somewhere else and this is they're going to send your active we tried to make some improvements here in the pilot it is essential it's vital that the packing is part of it like the whole circular economy principles so that you can not introduce in produce or import goods that are not upgradable that are not repairable that are not reusable and that are not recyclable on the highest value of the material and by that way if europe is having this in the global markets we all know that the industries in in china and usa will change to they will not leave our markets because new because of these requirements and that the itself then speeds up the global chains so we are even in the much bigger role of importers than we tend to think in in everyday politics thank you so much very good thank you that's an excellent final point on the global dimension of this and trade related issues too with that i'm going to thank you sir and and i understand both of you need to leave now i hope marta can remain as indicated and maybe offer some perspective at the end of our next session but thank you very much matia and sir for your contributions wonderful to see you and to have you involved in this and we look forward to remaining in touch i'm sure many of the participants as well as ourselves will be in contact with you frequently over coming months as this discussion continues so thank you and have a good rest of day we'll continue to be in touch with you as i say good to see you again so let's pass over i'm going to keep using matia's analogy of the football match to the second half here we're going to hear from businesses who are at the sort of cutting edge of this in in real life in practice and hear what their perspectives are before we also hear from a couple of NGOs who are also working on this issue so with that let me pass over first of all to katerina and then we'll pass to ramon katerina as you can see works for rockwell i'm sure she will introduce rockwell if you're not familiar and ramon for ball corporation likewise he will no doubt introduce ball too so welcome to you both delighted to have you here as well and really looking forward to hearing your your perspectives on this too so over to you first of all katerina hi so good morning everyone and thanks for giving me the chance to join this very interesting exchange today yes i'm here on the alpha rockwell which is the world leader in the production of stonewood product installation building industrial or the cultural products just to mention some so okay let me start from giving you some data to put things in perspective the built environment requires a vast amount of natural resources and accounts for about 50 percent of all the extracted raw materials and the construction sector alone is responsible for over 36 percent of the u total waste generation and that is why the u-green deal and the circular economy action plan originally rightly identified importance of recovery targets for construction and demolition waste in particular the commission made a made a commitment and i'm quoting a special attention to insulation material which generates the growing waste stream and this approach of course is even more important when we think about the ambitious renovation uh wave that we are aiming at to avoid that this is going to become a waste wave instead so however even if that was declared at the beginning we are still waiting recovery target for construction sector the way they are meant to be introduced by the packaging and packaging waste regulation so allow me to comment the circularity circular economy package and the packaging and packaging waste regulation drawing a parallel from a construction product perspective so in rockwell we are or we have a strong drive on circularity and this is naturally due to the fact that we are very durable we have a durable product we stay in use and performance don't change over time even over 55 years our product are recyclable over and over again and we even have our own take back scheme called rock cycle which is active in 19 countries at the moment and moreover we can also include other secondary raw material and by product from other industrial uh through industrial symbiosis and i'm talking about more than uh 65 sorry 650 000 tons per year so the introduction um this introduction was not just to make a self self appraisal but just to say that in principle we are happy and satisfied and ready to contribute to the circular agenda but unfortunately the regulation that we need to help us doing that are not so um and if i should just frame where are the issue that we are mainly facing i i would say that the first big one is that we are lacking common definition and common assessment so in other words we are lacking a level plane field and we are boosting greenwashing because when you are lacking assessment and definition then then you give the space to creativity so for example we are lacking a clear definition of recycled content i mean we have one coming from the eyes obviously the one we are probably all referred to but that it's it's kind of controversial and subjected to different interpretation is we probably in or out for us it should be in because of course by product is for example another way to reduce the use of virgin material but that it's still to be decided on a on a final um yeah common agreed framework durability we are lacking a definition of durability and assessment method and and i heard mr peligrini and very happily talking about reuse and we are obviously um on the same side but how can you reuse for example a construction product if you cannot determine durability of the construction product is that safe towards consumer to tell them just reuse it without knowing whether the performance is still there and then of course we are also lacking a definition on what is a construction product that can be recycled and what is recyclability when we're talking about construction products so with these regards for example the packaging and packaging waste regulation um introducing the recyclability definition is for sure a step forward and even more than the packaging uh um shall be considered recyclable if it can be recycled at scale because it means that there is an intention to prove that this recyclability is going to happen in in in real life um we believe that the regulation could have been better in recognizing that not all the recycling process yield to the same quality raw material um or can be done to the fact that can be done over and over again closed loop recycling is key measure to guarantee that more packaging products placed on the market are made of recycled material in a continuous loop and and and keeping the same quality at the end of the day uh while there is not also mentioning on downcycling in the in the packaging and packaging waste regulation which we believe there should be somehow distinction and then getting to my last point um I think that the the the screen that we are trying to to do here or to pass or the message that we are trying to pass here is that we need a more conducive regulation together with targets conducive regulation to enable harmonize extended producer responsibility um for example like the one we have seen now in the proposal of the regulation to facilitate the transport of waste when this waste is meant to be recycled and maybe we should stop talking about waste if there is a resource is in fact a secondary raw material and targets increase the cost of landfill then on landfill for recyclable products we see that the cost of landfill in many countries is so extremely cheap that it's not incentivating at all any kind of recycling practices as I said targets for minimal recycled content material based otherwise there is going to be let's say distortion because you cannot ask the same target to different products with different nature so to conclude conscious about the time the packaging and packaging waste regulation introduce fundamental element that are for sure bringing the circular discussion on the right direction so we appreciate and and also has packaging users let's say definition mechanism clear targets um but let me also say that we hope that the construction sector won't be left behind or even worst fall between the two chairs of the CPR and the waste regulation because that it's very much the risk that we are not going to be regulated anywhere and again as I said we account for an enormous amount of waste in the EU maybe green claims can start fixing the issue we have on greenwashing which is getting bigger and bigger and leading to market unfair competition and ultimately it's against consumer protection and interest so that's our thanks for your attention okay that's great well that raises both obviously the the possibility opportunity and the the need for more circular economic measures but also very clearly some of the challenges and alignment issues between different pieces of legislation I hope we'll come back to Martha who may comment on that but also our colleagues from the NGOs who will join us and maybe they'll have a view as well but conscious of time I'm keen to pass straight to Ramon and to hear from you and to keep the the game in motion so to speak I keep that football analogy alive Ramon the board is yours hi everybody I'm Ramon Arratia I work for ball corporation we are a producer of aluminum packaging cans cups etc and reusable bottles and I just like to to piggyback on what Katharina was saying because it's really important that it's about definitions and the defining the elements in the in the full circle from you know we focused a lot on collection which is of course is what it starts but you need to also start defining on on sorting and you need to find on how each of the parts and the design of the products each of the parts can be dismantled and that means about the sign of the product but also around how the the materials come back in which quality they come back so there are a lot of different grays of recycling downcycling in and there are really little standards so I like to piggyback on on those now I think that new EUPP WR you know they have a lot of positive things and it will definitely make Europe less dependent on primary resources but also I will be you know contributing to to the climate targets and this is the two things that that need to be tackled now we see a few issues in the implementation approach in the detail which more or less could be relatively sorted so commenting on our sectors on on the deposit on the deposit return systems if we look at the positives we're seeing you know we're very excited to see a proposal that is that there is a mandatory DRS and so happy to see our packaging aluminium cans included we've been advocating this for a long time and only with regulation and harmonization you can achieve the the 85 recycle content that that is our target by 2030 this is not for one product this is for the whole portfolio the whole production and you can imagine how much dependence on imports you would cut if you have that policy and the same thing for for climate now we are very disappointed to see that single-use glass bottles were of the hook wine and spirits the whole sector you know pretty much on the hook and glass has the worst carbon footprint of all beverage containers so we don't see that that you know we are really looking at the full LCA and sometimes we forget climate when we talk about about about packaging legislation so I think we need to go back to what Sirpa was talking about the path what Mattia was talking about looking at the LCA and really understand you know how you know making decisions based on on the overall of the facts so we think that instead for for the EU from a climate and waste prevention perspective you know having a 90% separate collection for recycling target for all drinks packaging would be great and and and we see harmonized rules for all 27 members around implementing a deposit return the skins that would be that would be really interesting now obviously we understand that we know sometimes there are voices and they're very you know powerful interests in some sectors so we see that even setting a 90% collection goal for all beverage packaging whether it is in DRS or EPR I think that could be you know a sort of a minimum in reuse great news I think you really need intervention to create the scale but sometimes you know it should focus on where it makes environmental and economic sense the first thing is there is lack of environmental data that they reuse have been sort of the strategy have been set more on on on on sort of hinges and and and and gut feeling and and read little evidence on where do we need to intervene with sectors we need to intervene we've just picked the sectors say we are doing well on business do so a bit more rather than thinking about where are those sectors especially those without their recycling path because they reuse force disproportionately on beverage because beverage is already good at that so we think that and beverage is going to be already covered by DRS we're going to see for example in aluminum over 90% recycling collection targets which will deliver 85% and there are any in other sectors as well mostly on the food side when it reduces the frankly the only option so we really think that we need to make that we need to make decisions based on facts Mattia mentioned Germany and the good case for reuse and beverage today in Germany there are more than 1500 different bottles 50% of the market share is an individual refillable bottles so this idea of the of the pool bottle that is shared by different brands is is a is a is a is not the full market and that's why we need to look at the very good thank you well I think a number of themes keep coming up here notably measurements and how we actually talk about the same data and compare like with like over a life cycle maybe we'll come back to that one question we've had which I'll leave with you maybe if we have time you can you can consider even if it's not an EU lead responsibility tax would would taxing virgin raw materials help this in terms of an upstream incentive to to to re to keep the value of the materials in the in the cycle as long as possible so we'll come back to that if we get a time at the end but I am very keen to make sure we get Johanna and Larissa involved and I hope that they are both online and can join us now and that we'll be able to hear hopefully first from Johanna and then from Larissa I won't do anything more than just welcome you and give you the floor immediately since time is obviously running away with us really look forward to hearing from you thank you for joining and yeah the floor is yours Johanna thank you very much Martin thank you very much for the invitation to speak and I will in order to be complementary to I think what Larissa my colleague Larissa Capello from the reserve will cover I will not dwell too much on the packaging packaging waste regulation but I will just summarize quickly that in our opinion it is a good first step yet it could have done better and I wouldn't do my role of being an NGO very well if I didn't challenge the way in which things are developing so we see a lot of creative energy and a lot of detail being developed on what concerns recycling recyclability recycled content it all makes sense in a circular economy recycling is basically the norm so it's good that we get these details right and it's good that we get collection rates up it's good that we we we we foster product design that enables recyclability and it's also important that we incorporate recycled content now in the wider scheme of things recycling makes sense and should be the norm if volumes remain stable if the volumes of the materials that we put on the market continue growing then even if we have a hundred percent recycled content we will still be overshooting what the planet can carry and so in that respect we think that for example in key legislation such as the packaging and packaging waste regulation there could have been and should have been a bigger focus on waste reduction measures and and reuse and there we we see a some effort with regards to tackling packaging particularly in certain sectors it could have it could have gone a step further this because in the wider scheme of things there is today too much material in circulation and the EU consumes a very big amount of it the material footprint of the EU in 2019 was of 18.9 per person per year and this is the second biggest rate after North America and so material footprint essentially accounts for all resources used from fossil resources to biomass to metal ores and non-metallic minerals that are consumed to meet the the product and the product and consumption patterns of European citizens and this is this is what the rate is huge and needs to be reversed and so the circular economy in general is a tool to be considered to decouple resource use and raw material use from meeting human needs and as a result circularity or in order to implement circularity we need to keep this footprint that we have on the planet much more closer to how we are designing policies and what measures we are putting into place and so I would also like to make the relationship between material productivity which has ever since 2000 it has declined and has been stable ever since then and this is particularly relevant with regards to sectors such as packaging the the the fact that for most single use packaging the value of the material is lost to the economy after it is being thrown away after roughly 20 minutes is is not a good trend it's something that we need to to think about much more and it's something that we need to reverse using the circular economy agenda but also getting companies to think about how to decouple resource use from meeting what consumers or citizens need and so in that in that in that vein of thought the idea being that sometimes it will require to dematerialize sometimes it will require to redefine ownership sometimes it will require to think about things in a in a larger and bigger perspective and not just focus on individual production sectors and and so this is to to kind of call also upon well companies and industry to think about the market signals that they are giving if the only value that is measured is economic growth or monetary value then we are not actually helping to rethink the the entire system and to to ensure that our companies are fit for the future and for the circular economy so what other measures of value can we create so that we are ensuring that instead of relying only on extraction and production and then ensuring that that consumption is continues at the same rate how are we ensuring that for example someone who would completely redefine ownership would still be considered a valued and valuable economic actor so what can companies do in that respect so I think overall the message is that yes in terms of material footprint we are not doing very well we are we are in Europe we are we represent six percent of the world population but we're consuming 17 percent that's something that Europe needs to be looking into and for example the ESPR in our opinion the eco design regulation should have as a main KPI the fact of driving down material consumption considerably but this obviously is also something that should be extrapolated to many other sectors and to do economy-wide to ensure that as it as as we move along we stop overshooting what the planets can can carry that would be my message today and I would leave it to you yeah well I think it's it picks up on a theme we've had already which is the importance of measurement and in your case mentioning the material footprint is a starting point for that which remains a challenge obviously that's a complex issue but thank you that was extremely helpful and I'm going to pass straight to Larissa give you the the chance to offer your views as well very much Martin I think very much for interpretation so just a short introduction about myself and the organization so yeah my name is Larissa your policy campaigner at Zero Waste Europe and we are Brussels based NGO and network of organizations working across Europe on policy EU policy national policy as well and local strategies to address waste at source well a general impression on the on the proposal so it's as Johanna already mentioned as well it has a good aim a good direction it's it's focused on the waste hierarchy putting some waste production measures establishing reuse targets proposing some bands for some problematic and unnecessary packaging types established good criteria for depositing schemes as well and for reuse but of course it would need more ambition if they use really serious in achieving objective of 100 percent reuse by recycled packaging by 2030 and also the devil are in the details of the articles and the requirements in there so I think first I think I would like to raise this actually one of the I say is the big elephant in the room that nobody mentions about packaging is about chemicals so chemicals are really not addressed in the legislation um there are many studies that are showing that in Europe alone over 8 000 chemicals can potentially be used in food packaging and many of those linked to cancer and other serious diseases paper and plastic um are the most used for food contact materials applications in Europe so if you're really talking about packaging we need to talk about same ability and safety together that needs to go in hand in hand we cannot talk about same ability separate from safety of packaging so this needs really needs to be addressed in the regulation and improved another point I'd like to address is about depositing schemes and glass packaging so I'd mention both here together as I also mentioned by Hamon single use glass packaging is it's clearly off the hook from this proposal so single use glass packaging it's has been proven to be has to have the great environment impact compared to other all single use materials because it has a high energy consuming process however it also has the biggest potential for reusability so reusable glass packaging for instance glass bottles can be used from 30 times on average if inserted in a reuse system and also in terms of recyclability if it's inserted in the depositor's scheme in a closed loop system it can also be recycled almost indefinitely so why single use glass is out of the positive schemes why spirits are not included in the reuse targets so all of this makes a lot of questions regarding yeah single use glass is not being addressed why it should be because of its high impact when it comes to deer rest it's crucial that the depositor teams they are implemented to accommodate both single use and reusable packaging it's not in there in the criteria of the proposal and it's not only important for the for the achievement achieving both recycling reuse targets but also for the for the convenience of consumers we already have technologies of reverse revending machines or for the pros return schemes where you can have both single use and reusable bottles being returned in Germany and as well in other Scandinavian countries um another point I'd like to make is regarding the definition of systems for reuse so it's great that the proposal differentiates well what is a system for reuse because actually sustainable packaging cannot exist without a sustainable system so the reasonable packaging needs to be inserted in a system so it's great that the the proposal refers this system but it's missing a crucial element that makes the the systems efficient which is incentive to return the packaging if there's no incentive to return the packaging there's no return rates and the systems cannot be run effectively and smoothly that's I'm not sure if you have seen the example of pilot systems being implemented in France for instance for McDonald's etc where with really poor return rates it's because there's no incentive to return this packaging consumers are bringing them home because actually when they go to the fast food like McDonald's they are used to take the packaging home anyway so this is a is a new change of habits and it needs to put this kind of new rules which for instance incentive to return the packaging like a deposit for instance that will ensure the systems it's well implemented and effective just briefly now I'm afraid since I'm we're running into extra time again and I need to just give one person I'm going to bring Marta back in at the very end just to give her a chance to reflect but so just briefly if you may okay I will just finish on reuse as well regarding the reuse targets being mixed with refueled targets and they should not be mixed so the proposal defined defined refuel and reuse separately because they are different mechanisms and the targets cannot be achieved cannot be mixed because there's one way you achieve refuel and one way you achieve reuse and there's different ways to calculate mixing both will lead to a huge margin of error and will lead to not reduce data for reuse targets so since I'm no have more time I'll end up here thank you no that's very good you've covered a lot of ground in a short space of time thank you very much indeed by all means stay with us we've got I'm going to allow us a few minutes of over time so to speak Marta if you're there I promise to offer you a chance just to reflect on what you have heard and obviously how that relates to the discussions in the council in particular that you're engaged with if you're still with us you can join us now and give your your reaction I mean it's obviously a wide-ranging discussion we've had but we've we've gone from very broad issues like material footprint down to some very specific practical questions and concerns from companies and as you've just heard from Larissa in practice so very briefly on on your side any other reflections before we bring this to a close yeah thank you for the opportunity very interesting to hear all the participants in the second panel going back to what Catharina said and Larissa also on greenwashing and deposit schemes it also brings us back to the consumer issue on greenwashing of course if we have clear rules and definitions it leaves less space for those backpack practices and we know imagination has no limits so when you leave a bridge someone can invent something we here in Portugal we just initiated a campaign last week against greenwashing to create awareness in the consumer it's done in cooperation with the consumer association and it's linked also to the ECO level and also on deposit schemes we had a a pilot project here in Portugal for bottles and metal containers and it's really important to act on these on these issues and sure this proposal will have an impact on both of them and we will stand on opposition in the council negotiations like I said before it's always a question of balance because we are committed to the same final goal that that's clear to everyone so thank you thank you well that's probably a very good way to to conclude actually the range of points that have been raised and obviously that need to be addressed discussed further and to you know conclude on shouldn't I guess cloud the picture that actually there is a large amount of consensus on the strategic goal here and some of the merits of that goal namely obviously addressing some of the shorter term needs that we have facing our economy and society in the context of many challenges right here right now but also the longer term environmental challenges and the circular economy is one of these areas that combines these things together if we get it right obviously and I think everyone is committed to the same goal here it solves many of these problems at the same time but that's complicated and these issues obviously deserve the sort of discussion we're having today and we're very pleased to have had obviously the range of policymakers businesses civil society voices that we have with us here today I found it extremely interesting myself I hope everyone who's joined us has likewise found that interesting and useful and I'm sure we will keep doing this the task force itself is committed to doing that obviously as to ourselves we're going to enable that to continue to be the case and we look forward to your feedback on any of the questions if you've got more please as you can see here Tamid is happy to answer those and we'll get in touch with other speakers and participants where we can help and obviously we'll remain in contact with you all and look forward to another session like this I apologize if it's over run and that's caused you any issues with your future meetings but like like all good football matches sometimes the best things happen in extra time anyway so hopefully the last seven minutes have also been good too and yeah with Marta obviously you're involved in a football match now as you know so good luck and maybe a score draw is a good way to finish though rather than one winner or and the loser so anyway enough football analogies thank you again to everybody all our speakers everyone who's joined online all my colleagues who do all the hard work putting this together of which there is an enormous amount as you all know and I wish you a good rest of day and look forward to seeing you again sometime soon thank you and goodbye thank you