 Hello Normandy. This is our final interview for the HowlRound of all the harp artists. There's a whole series of them. Thank you for watching. Have you been watching them? You know already they're extraordinary and Normandy is no exception to that. The harp program is, if you don't know, a residency artist program at the Heroin Center where artists of all different kinds of artists, puppeteers, musicians, theater artists, video artists are given space and time and peer support and fellowship to advance their careers, but primarily also to work on a particular piece of art for any number of years that they really want to. If Kristen Martin who started it, she knew that the three-week model of the American theater didn't really work for most artists, and so she created this program many years ago. I've certainly been a beneficiary of it, and we're here with a harp artist right now. So Normandy, why don't you, we don't know each other really, so why don't you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your project. Okay, so I'm Normandy Sherwood. I'm a director and a designer and a writer, and I do a lot of different things in the theater, and my harp project is called Psychic Self-Defense, and the quick pitch of the show is that, or the challenge of the show is that it will include 45 minutes of Curtin's opening. That's my fantasy. It's like all I ever want theater to be. I try to make that show every single time I'm in the theater, and every single time I end up having a narrative, but it's all I want is Curtin's opening. So how are you actually doing it? Well, I feel like that's like, man, that's the struggle that I am facing is how do you not have the narrative wants to creep in, and so I feel like I'm... Well, I'm not saying narrative is wrong. I'm just saying like, yeah, yeah. Well, why don't you, because I've read the thing on Psychic, to tell people what it was inspired by or based on, and what the, I guess you could call it a goal of the pieces. Yeah. So it was inspired partly by this vision of the 45 minutes of Curtin's opening, but also by this 1930s paranormal self-help book called Psychic Self-Defense by Dionne Fortune, which is... Well, it's a book that's about how to defend your psyche from the attacks of ghosts or psychic vampires or other magicians, other supernatural... Pundits. Pundits. Well, exactly. So when I read that, I was like, that's funny. But then I was like, well, but actually, I really want to be able to practice Psychic Self-Defense because I think there are a lot of psychic vampires abroad in the world and corporations that want to hijack my attention and your attention and all different ways that I think we might feel under attack. So part of the impulse for the show was to figure out how can, to explore that idea and hopefully figure out a show that can be some sort of practice of Psychic Self-Defense or like antidote to the psychic hijacking. So that's where Curtin's come in. And what are the techniques in the book that they suggest and how does that apply to, how have you then turned that into Curtin's opening? Well, this is the frustrating thing about the book is that there aren't a lot of concrete techniques. It is about stories about times that the writer was attacked. The most concrete technique is that if someone is trying to bully you, you should stare at the space right between their eyes and then they won't have any power over you. That's the one kind of concrete. That's not even supernatural really. And I'm not quite sure that works. I think I tried that technique when I was 10 and it didn't work. Well, the other funny thing about that book is that a lot of the things that she describes like looking at it through like a contemporary lens, you're like, this person is in an abusive relationship and that's what the paranormal thing that she's describing. So there's sort of like an interesting slant to read it as well. But there's these kind of ghosts hanging around you when you're in an abusive relationship. Or you're attributing, you know, like, you know, feelings of discomfort to ghosts when maybe they're actually like in a relationship situation. Oh, I see. The total opposite of what I was saying. So then, so you read this book and you're just inspired and so then lead me to curtains. So the curtains, I would say the curtains are like developing independently and then the two things sort of run together. And I think the curtains are, well to me, the way the curtains offer a type of practice of psychic self-defenses. The desire to create a show that is like keeps the audience in a state of anticipation and sort of absorption about what's going to happen next. So thinking about like creating a very like visual sensory experience that is about sort of the being in the present moment of anticipation, I guess. And that that offers some sort of antidote to being grabbed in different directions away from yourself. Yeah. I mean, it seems meditative and just the idea of it seems very cleansing. And I guess I wonder about the existential condition of being in a place watching curtains open for 45 minutes. Is that in any way some kind of psychic self-defense just to be in existentialism? Yes, to get through the different cycles of being forward and being absorbed and being bored and being absorbed. But that's like part of the challenge is like 45 minutes of curtains opening. Like how do you make it, I mean, bearable in a certain way? Or how do you make it like continue to pull people in? Yeah. So that's... Well, there's a whole Japanese art form that is just screens opening that Basil made a show, but he put a narrative into the show. But it's Basil Twist, but it's just, there's a whole, on some island, he did all the research. I can't remember the actual language for it, but it's really just screens opening over and over and over again. So there's a tradition, I don't know if there's footage. There's also like maybe sort of a burlesque element of it, just this sort of constant reveal and I mean teasing of whatever is going to be behind it. Yeah. And are you... Yeah, to what degree is surprise an element in this work? Like surprising the audience or surprising... Surprising the audience, surprising you, surprising, yeah. I mean, to what degree is a curtain opens and it's the exact same curtain or it's a curtain that looks different and yeah. Well, I think yeah, it's about building surprise. I mean, you know, in a way it's sort of like you're building to punch lines that kind of like cascade, right? Like you always want it to be like there's something worthwhile behind the curtain, but also like maybe you have to build up to the worthwhile curtain. We're kind of playing around with that. I mean, I think it's all about surprise, that's what curtain's opening is, what's behind the curtain. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I know every time I always want to have a curtain in my shows and every time I do, the designers always kind of freak out, there's always a moment of like, people are always game to do it, but there's always a moment of, oh my God, technically it's so challenging to have a curtain and also for down-down artists, you know, it's can be very expensive curtains. And so how are you doing gymnastics around all of that? The technical things of having all... I mean, I imagine you have to have like a thousand riggings in order to do this. Right. Well, so the work that we've done on the show so far has been very like technically oriented, like we were able to do some work last summer in the here space in a very socially distanced way, and it was all about just figuring out strategies for the rigging and what can we make and how do we want to make it. But, you know, I mean, I think like in this sort of scrappy down-down way, we're like, we're using, we're repurposing a lot of things. Yeah, yeah. Using a lot of materials for the arts fabric and like the vast sort of curtains I have from other shows. So I think we're kind of trying to see what we can make out of what we have. And I wish I had all my curtains still, I'd give them to you. Yeah. So you have worked with so many different kinds of artists. You have a really eclectic kind of career. And yet when I look at imagery of your work, there's a clear kind of aesthetic vision. And could you just maybe describe what you're obviously bringing that to all the various projects that you work on. And so just describe your aesthetics. And I guess also to some degree, what aesthetics maybe mean to you? Well, I guess I would say that like my biggest aesthetic influence is materials. Like I'm really interested in like the potential of a weird material to do something cool. And I'm really interested in things that are handmade and look handmade. Like that's, you know, that's what gets me excited in and I guess I'm just I'm really interested in objects and material and like the stuff of the theater. That's, you know, I'm a writer and a designer. But I think even as a writer, I'm always thinking about the stuff and how the stuff is going to work. And I guess I would let's see how to describe the aesthetic. It's like maximal. It's very colorful. And I sort of I used to say that like my forte was like making something out of trash in 20 minutes. And that's still a strong skill I have. But I'm working on like longer timelines still making stuff out of trash. Right. And is that a do you think that that's an economic choice making things out of trash? Or is it just because trash can be so beautiful? Or it's fun to turn something that has been discarded into something that is beautiful? I would say it's like both are all like, I mean, certainly in an economic thing, like, you know, just kind of making it do in New York over the years, like that's how you do it. But I don't know, I'm really interested in theatrical objects, like they're so valuable in the moment of the performance. And then they can become trash immediately when the show is over. And just like magic trick of the value disappearing or like the transformation that happens. I don't know. So I think about that a lot. Like, it makes me want to like bring the trash back into the spotlight. Right. Yeah, something that was of use that is no longer of use. And now it's abuse again, because you decided it's empowering. Can we see a little work sample? Sure. Yeah. Yeah, I'll show, I'll share my screen and I'll show like kind of a super cut of images from the workshop that we did for the show this summer. All right, super. I have determined to master the art of psychic self defense. Wonderful. So, so it's really, you're working with hypnosis to, right? Yeah. Yeah. To hypnotize people out of wanting to buy things. Or just to be in a, I mean, it's just like, oh, yes, open. I don't know when things open. It opens you at the same time. Like sort of get to bathing, opening, opening, opening. Are you working with closing as well? Well, no, not as much. I mean, we were experimenting this summer, we, you know, we did some closing, but it seems like the opening is the thing. And what we're trying to figure out is like, maybe there'll be like a little bit of closing, but like, um, opening into different spaces that then disappear when other curtains open behind them. That's the thing we're, we're wanting to work on in our next sort of work period. Yeah. And I love how you're, you know, when you read the blurb of it, all I think is the same size curtain. And it's just one after another. But you're really, you're brand you're like, oh, no, we're going to bring in a little curtain and we're going to video curtain and physical curtain. And, you know, so you really experimenting with form and, and style of material as well. And do you, do you feel like you're going to have 5,000 more versions before you actually put it all together? Or do you feel like you're on a, on a track to something right now? Um, I think we're still really in like the exploratory phase. We spent a little bit of time, the group and I spent a little bit of time at a residency without a theater, just sort of thinking through some things and playing with some effects. And, and we'll have more time working on it in the theater. I think we're like firmly in the like, try a lot of different things and see what we can do in the phase of this project. Yeah, yeah. You know, the I try to keep these by at 30 minutes. So I'm going to, I'm going to close this up soon. But what I wanted to ask is something I've been asking a lot of the artists, because there seems to be a social justice, a theme of, and this may be just Kristen Martin's curatorial desire, or it could be the curators, the panel that picks all the artists, you know, which changes every year. So I don't think they could all collaboratively get together to decide this. But it seems like most of the artists have some kind of social justice anchor in their work. And I'm wondering is that, and this particular one is interesting because the the idea kind of feels that like to freeze people of of the bombardment of everyone trying to steal your attention, you know, because it feels up to me like a social justice action. But I wonder, but, but the the actual execution of it is much larger than that in some ways. So I wonder about about how that plays social justice plays into your desire to even just get involved in a project. Because so many people are working that way, I certainly tend to work that way, too. But curious. Yeah, I mean, I think that like, I'm thinking a lot about like how we collaborate together, me and the team and sort of like what our community agreement is, how I am working to like create a team that is full of dear collaborators of mine, but also bringing in new people is trying to like reach toward equity in the theater space. And then like content wise, I mean, I think that like, yeah, as you say, like in the sort of grand conceptual thing, there is something about like, how to sort of like claim ownership of our own attention, and how to, you know, then be able to deploy that attention in the ways that we need to, how to be like free of certain oppressive structures. But the experience of it, I think what I'm interested in the experience of it is sort of an experience of absorption and being sort of drawn in to, I don't know, like the hypnotic place, as you're saying, as a kind of cleansing and as a kind of like refreshing. So I feel like we kind of need that these days is like brain refresh. Yeah. And you're, but you're working on this as a, forgive me for not knowing, but you are the lead artist, is that how you're defining this? And so are you, are you building an ensemble or is it just that I always come up with this with this question too, because I feel like when you apply for the devised grants, you know, you're like, well, I have my ensemble, we've been making work together for years and years and years, but we haven't called it the Wooster Group or something, you know, we haven't called it an ensemble name. And so how are you navigating just that wondering, I hear you talking about equity with your, with the workers and stuff, but also being in the center of the decisions. So what's that navigation for you? Well, it's, this piece is interesting because I'm, I began making theater in a sort of collaborative devised group. And then, yeah, I mean, was it a national theater? The United States, right? Yes. I mean, one of the great titles for a theater company of all time. Yes, please. Yes, claim it. And so, yeah, you started with an ensemble and then that is, and you branched out. And so, yeah, I interrupted you. Oh, no. Yeah. So that's where I started. And then over the last like 10 years, I would say that I've been working, you know, more in the like less devised way, I guess, like as the writer, as the director. And this piece is coming from an impulse of like turning to back toward that collaborative work a little bit. Like, I guess I am still would claim the lead artist role in this project, but it's much more being sort of thought through and developed by the group. And I think, you know, it's the quality of the collaboration is changing sort of as we work on it. And I'm interested at like emergent property. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, marketing is not processed, but it's not devoid of process. That makes sense. Like, like what I have to do is show when I have to do show when I get to do a show. They often will want to put my name on it, you know, and I and I always think, oh, okay, well, if I but but that maybe gives me too much weight than what than what I want the art to be. But then but then nobody comes to the show if you just give the title of the show, right? So so I'm, yeah, I would love I would love to collaborate with you on a way to figure out how to convince the rest of the world that marketing is not processed. And I'd also love to collaborate with you one day. So maybe one day we could. Thank you. Is there anything you need from the community? Do you need money? Do you need people to come and sew curtains together? Do you need what what do you need in case somebody's listening to this wants to help out? Yeah, I mean, I would say I always want someone to help in our sewing the curtain factory that we're creating. Is it a real sewing me? I mean, are you you're getting together with friends and and having cocktails and sewing? At times, I mean, mostly it's been limited to the work periods we've had. But I'm like seeing that in our future, there's like a lot of curtains to sew. Yeah, there's like a community engagement that with the presenters love that when you engage the community. You can you can travel all around the country and have various people sew all your curtains for you. Yeah. So that's what you need. You want people to join you on that? Well, I mean, of course, one always needs money for all sorts of things. But yeah, but I mean, you know, and I feel like we we figure out all the ways to make that come. You know, but I think that like the thing I'm right now, like as we're making it and sort of before people can see it, although they might get a chance to see it a little bit over the summer. Where exactly? I believe as part of raw, we're going to do a little something that people will be able to see. So yes, before we finally meet the public, I would love people to be involved in the the handiwork of it. Yeah, is that part of your understanding of the art is the process? Is also the art? Yeah, I mean, yeah, I would say that like the, you know, and I mean, when I think about like where what's the, you know, the desired sort of effect I would like to create for the audience, I think about like, you know, for the for the last year or so, what sort of gotten me through is just long interrupted times where I'm sewing and just the moment of like absorbing in yourself in a in a in a task or in just sort of like a somewhat hypnotic activity. So that that I guess is what made me really want to give that experience to other people because it's been so genuine and soothing for me. Wonderful. Well, I don't sew, but I would come in and learn how yeah, that sounds great to have the COVID experience has been all kind of process and no product, but to be able to sit down and actually just make make something and and ah, we did it, you know, be very delightful. Thank you so much for talking. Thank you. Is there anything else you want to say? Not right now. Great. Great to be talking to you. Great to be talking to you, people who are seeing this and come see us sometime. Bye. Thank you.